LoveSaid: Understanding Romance Fraud

Release Date: 10 Feb 25

Host(s):

• Adam Carter
• Louise Baxter MBE (LouBax)

Guest(s):

• Anna Rowe – Founder of LoveSaid and Catch the Catfish, romance fraud awareness campaigner

Episode Summary:

In this powerful episode of the Consumer Friend Podcast, Adam and LouBax sit down with Anna Rowe, a leading voice in raising awareness about romance fraud. After experiencing it firsthand, Anna turned her trauma into action, creating Catch the Catfish and LoveSaid, two platforms dedicated to educating and supporting victims of online deception.

Anna shares her story, shedding light on the manipulative tactics used in romance fraud, from emotional grooming to financial exploitation. The conversation highlights the psychological impact on victims, the growing role of AI in online deception, and why blaming victims needs to stop.

Key Takeaways

1. The Scale of Romance Fraud 
   • In 2023, over 7,660 cases of romance fraud were reported in England and Wales. Victims lost an average of £6,937, with the highest losses affecting those aged 65–74, averaging £13,123 per case. 
2. Anna’s Journey 
   • Anna shares her experience of being deceived by someone who created a completely fake identity.
   • She explains how emotional grooming, love bombing, and coercion made her—and many others—become a victim.
3. Understanding Romance Fraud
   • Romance fraud isn't just about financial loss—it’s a triple trauma: 
     1. The loss of an intense, manipulated relationship.
     2. The realisation that the person never actually existed. 
     3. The financial or emotional toll of the deception.
4. Manipulation Tactics Used
   • Love bombing: Overwhelming attention and affection to create emotional dependency. 
   • Isolation: Cutting victims off from support networks.
   • Guilt & control: Using fake crises (illness, financial trouble) to elicit sympathy and money.
5. The Role of Artificial Intelligence (AI) in Fraud
   • AI is making deception more sophisticated, from deepfake video calls to voice cloning.
   • Criminals now use AI tools to personalise their messages and create more convincing fake identities.
6. Why Victim Blaming Must Stop
   • Victims often struggle with shame and self-doubt after being deceived.
   • Instead of asking, “Why did they fall for it?”, we should ask, “How did someone manipulate them so effectively?”

Resources & Links:

• LoveSaid – Support for Romance Fraud Victims
• Catch the Catfish – Awareness & Education
• Consumer Friend Website – Learn more about fraud awareness and consumer protection.

Let’s break the stigma and start the conversation! 🎙️

Please like, subscribe and rate to help increase the reach in the UK. You can also follow us on socials:

• Facebook
• Website: Consumer Friend
• Twitter: @ConsumerFriendUK
• Instagram: @ConsumerFriendOfficial
• TikTok

Transcript

[00:00:00] This is ConsumerFriend.

[00:00:09] Adam: Hi everyone, welcome to the ConsumerFriend podcast. We're very much hoping you're enjoying the current season of our podcast where we're interviewing industry experts for so many consumer related issues. In today's pod, myself and Lou interviewed Anna Rowe, founder of the Lovesaid website. Now we interviewed her back in the summer and I'm afraid to say that we had a bit of a tech malfunction and one of the recordings went a bit wrong.

[00:00:31] Adam: So we're having to use the recording from the online conferencing software, which isn't the best. We've got to play with the sound to get it as good as we can, but please stick with it. It's such valuable. information and it could help you avoid becoming a victim of romance fraud. As you'll hear, romance fraud is rife across all genders and adult age groups in the UK.

[00:00:50] Adam: Anyone can be a victim. Here is the interview with Anna. Hope you enjoy it. Romance scams are a growing problem. In [00:01:00] 2023, 7, 660 cases were reported in England and Wales. A significant rise from nearly 5, 000 in 2019. Victims lost an average of 6, 937, according to Lloyds Bank. And in 2023, men made up 52 percent of these cases, but women reported higher average losses, uh, around 9, 000 compared to men.

[00:01:21] Adam: It was just over 5, 000. Those most at risk are aged 55 to 64, with cases in this group increasing by nearly 49 percent from the previous year. However, the highest losses are seen in individuals aged 65 to 74, who lose an average of 13, 123 to romance fraud. Today, we are honored to welcome Anna Rowe, a truly inspiring individual.

[00:01:43] Adam: After experiencing romance fraud herself, Anna turned her difficult experience into a mission to help others. She started Catch the Catfish and Love Said to raise awareness about online scams and support victims of romance fraud. Anna's journey is one of strength and determination. By sharing her story, she helps [00:02:00] people recognize the signs of fraud and find the support that they need to recover.

[00:02:04] Adam: Her work has made a real difference in many lives, showing that even in tough times, we can find hope and make positive changes. She has gone from victim to gamekeeper, to a rareness raiser, to industry expert, and now industry legend. Hi, Anna. Thank you very much for coming onto our podcast. 

[00:02:24] LouBax: What an intro.

[00:02:25] LouBax: Thank you so much. It's very kind. 

[00:02:27] Adam: I 

[00:02:28] LouBax: never get introduced like that. Just saying. I get Little Louise, I 

[00:02:32] get some, 

[00:02:33] LouBax: some sort of reference to my short stature, never that sort of intro. Oh, 

[00:02:39] Anna: I'm, I'm gonna, I'm gonna soundbite it and put that 

[00:02:44] Adam: on the show. Great to have you on Anna, thank you so much, obviously I've done a bit of research.

[00:02:51] Adam: In my day job, I work for the National Trading Standards Scams team. I sit on the date safe panel hosted by the City of London, the working group. And I was at your [00:03:00] presentation at the last meeting and it was fantastic talking about AI, really, really loved it. Great stuff. You are now becoming the go to person for information around romance fraud.

[00:03:12] Adam: But what I think I want to talk about first is how it all started for you. So I know you had a personal experience and you've been a victim of romance fraud. Can you just talk a little bit about that? 

[00:03:21] Anna: Yeah. Different kind of romance fraud for mine. So it was back in 2017 I'd had a successful online dating experience prior, so that had probably let my guard down a little bit.

[00:03:34] Anna: Met this guy, was groomed online for three months, and then met him in person. The malicious intent behind his fake identity was a sexual one. Not only that, I think bigger picture, looking back with all the victims now, he absolutely loved the power and control that he had over his victims through the deceit.

[00:03:54] Anna: His whole fake life and story, but coming out the other side of it, I ended up [00:04:00] tracking him down into his real life and then. I couldn't understand how he'd done what he did to me because I'm normally that really hot on the, on the game with people that are not nice. I've always been that go to person for someone that says, what do you think of them?

[00:04:17] Anna: And I'm always a hundred percent on the money for, Stay away, getting bad vibes from that one. And that should tell you how good he was at what he did, the way he got under my skin. But the way he remained under my skin for a long time, um, and I couldn't understand that bit. And I ended up seeing a counsellor, and it was her that directed me to go and research narcissistic and psychopathic traits.

[00:04:40] Anna: And that was my real healing point, um, and my eye opener. When I realised personality type use this particular type of script and emotional manipulation and I recognize so much of other people's and it was at that point when there was nowhere to match that with my experience [00:05:00] of this fake identity. I set up catch the catfish and I was very, very quickly overwhelmed with emails from people that had had similar experience to me, whether it was with someone with a fake identity or not.

[00:05:13] Anna: But then I started getting emails from people where the malicious intent was clearly financial. 

[00:05:18] I'd not heard of 

[00:05:19] Anna: those. I'd not heard of them. Um, but with my new skills of reverse image searching, but I'd literally just come across at that point back in 2017. And. Also recognizing when they were sending me their text messages.

[00:05:33] Anna: even though it was clear these were somewhere else in the world, that script that was being used absolutely paralleled what had been sent to me. That love, that grooming, that love bombing, that trauma bonding, that coercive controlling sort of behavior. And so I had immediate empathy and understanding of what these victims had been through to make them complicit and compliant [00:06:00] in then.

[00:06:00] Anna: Um, I think that's why what, what I've done has been successful in that respect, that people don't feel judged at all and they feel understood and heard. It's not just them speaking. I get it. 

[00:06:14] Adam: They're not alone in that situation, are they? There's other people that have been involved in this and that feeling of shame and that stigma of embarrassment, all that kind of stuff.

[00:06:26] Adam: If it's shared, then it's, it's It's a good thing, yeah. 

[00:06:29] LouBax: It gives permission, doesn't it? It gives permission for other people to share their stories. It's like when, you've heard me talk about that before, like when you have a baby and you go, I don't always like my kids, and you find another mum that goes, I don't always like mine, and you're like, Ah, that's right, normal.

[00:06:44] LouBax: It normalises it, doesn't it? It's permission to talk about it. 

[00:06:48] Anna: Yeah, and like you were just talking about the Animac podcast and so many victims really resonate when they hear me Walk through in detail the sort of things that [00:07:00] he did and I particularly pull out certain things that he did in that because of how they Coincide with the same stories and scenarios that are used with scammers.

[00:07:10] Anna: So making you feel so comfortable wanting to isolate you in, in certain respects, and also the cancer story that is so often used. He used that, you know, he wasn't one of those overseas financial scammers, but he still used that because when you're a person that has empathy, For people, you're always going to feel for them.

[00:07:37] Anna: And that's a huge part of the manipulation that, that goes on. It was tragic, but I am that personality type that when I don't know about something, I will go and 

[00:07:48] Adam: With regards to the Annie Mac podcast, anyone who wants to listen to Anna's full story, the Annie Mac podcast changes, you're on there, it's about 45 minutes, I think?

[00:07:57] Adam: Yeah, 

[00:07:58] I think 

[00:07:58] Adam: it 

[00:07:59] is, yeah. 

[00:07:59] Adam: [00:08:00] So I was listening to that last week, and I was thinking, oh okay, when do we get to the point where he's going to ask you for money? And, and we didn't get to that point, because I've obviously been in, in, In fraud for six, seven years and romance fraud to me is about the extortion of money.

[00:08:15] Adam: And, and, and that wasn't the case for you, which is when we've had completely different experiences, I guess, whereas a revelation for you that they were actually after money as well. 

[00:08:24] Anna: Yeah. And I, that I was constantly asked that. I mean, I had Falcon from the Met getting touched with me 

[00:08:29] before 

[00:08:30] Anna: the story went public saying, well, did you ask for this?

[00:08:32] Anna: And I was like, no, but. What we need for people to understand is that it's the journey that victims are put through that is what brings us together under that banner of romance fraud. So mine didn't have money, there was a very different intent. I say mine, our, because there are 17 of us that I know of with that guy.

[00:08:55] Anna: You've got Cecilia Filhoy's experience where she met him in person, [00:09:00] had a similar you know, that personal relationship with him, but he also asked for money. And then we've got the victims where it's completely online. They don't meet them in person and the money or other. is involved, whatever it is that that particular group of scammers wants from the victims.

[00:09:17] Anna: It's not always money. Sometimes it's laundering. 

[00:09:20] LouBax: And Celia was the, the Tinder swindler, wasn't that whole documentary on Netflix around that? Because again, the problem we have with this sort of scams, fraud, abuse, is whilst, as Adam said, Uh, you didn't pay any money. In a lot of these cases we do see that people are asked for money even if it is face to face or even if it is again sort of a distance romance fraud is what what happens is when people actually find out that they are a victim of a crime you have issues around the fact that not only they lost money or something else they've actually lost their boyfriend or their [00:10:00] girlfriend so it's huge it's a double loss.

[00:10:04] Anna: I say it's a triple trauma and that's how I describe it to, to my victims to help them understand why this feels so huge because it does feel huge. And it's not just the loss of the most intense relationship that you've ever experienced because they are crazy intense. So it's not only the loss of that that leaves this huge void in your life.

[00:10:27] Anna: It's also come into terms with that the person that you were in love with and you thought was in love with you didn't actually exist at all. That was a character that they had created for you. And then you've got the loss of the money on the end of that. So for financial fraud victims, it is like a triple trauma that they have to work through.

[00:10:48] Anna: It's huge and it is that emotional part of it that is the long lasting part of it, you know, finances. A lot of people will say to me, the majority of my victims say the [00:11:00] money, it's awful to have lost it, but they say I can make more money. It's that emotional impact that it has, and a lot of people will say, oh, it's trusting other people again, and actually, no, that's not the worst of it.

[00:11:14] Anna: The worst of it is trusting yourself, because for me, as that person who always could tell a bad person from a good person, I now doubt that in myself. Because when you've had someone so masterfully manipulate your morals and your ethics and everything about you, trusting yourself again is really difficult.

[00:11:41] Adam: When, when we look at manipulation, what kind of tactics are these? people doing to kind of coerce criminals. I mean, criminals. Yeah. I mean, yeah, I want to say, I want to say men, but I don't, but that's obviously that I'm, I'm, I'm assuming they're [00:12:00] male that these people that are committing these crimes, but what kind of tactics are they using?

[00:12:04] Anna: There are Yahoo boys and girls that do this, the majority that I see in the groups of boys, but there are absolutely girls that do it, and they will swap with the identity that they've created. So Dave Rap Band, who's an ex-military here, someone had fake profiles of him the other day and he got 'em on a video call and it was a girl so that they, they will swap identities too when, when they create.

[00:12:28] Anna: So it, it definitely comes from both. 

[00:12:31] Adam: So the criminals are creating fake profiles. They use photos, obviously not of themselves. That would be silly. So they're taking, they're, they're taking photos from. 

[00:12:43] Anna: It's, it's quite specific. Usually the, if we look at the bigger scenarios used, Military pictures, doctors and pilots are also used under the banner of military UN.

[00:12:57] Anna: And then you've got offshore workers. So [00:13:00] basically anyone that's got photographs in their real life of wearing a hard hat, or a, you know, a bright orange suit. They get used as offshore workers. They get used as engineers. architects, that kind of thing. So basically, those scenarios that can take anyone away, uh, to a location, because that gives the opportunity for there being a problem somewhere down the line, um, if they're after money with the banking, for example.

[00:13:29] Anna: But there are, we've got other things coming out now, haven't we? Like the investment fraud, the disgustingly named pig butchering that I hate. 

[00:13:36] Adam: Yeah, we're trying to get that changed. 

[00:13:39] Anna: Yeah, I know. We've been talking over things we could call it and there are, there's different. you know, different ideas of thought on well, it's known now, but I'd still rather change it.

[00:13:49] Anna: I think it's 

[00:13:50] Adam: right. I'd 

[00:13:52] LouBax: like to talk to the person that gave you that name and go, what did you, why? Well, 

[00:13:57] Anna: it was literally translated from [00:14:00] what the criminals called it. Wasn't it? It's a, it's a translation of the Chinese term for that. That's what the criminals named it, which makes me even more think we shouldn't be using it.

[00:14:09] Anna: It's. 

[00:14:10] Horrible. 

[00:14:12] Adam: They'll claim to be working overseas, World Health Organization, Greenpeace, military, that kind of thing. That also gives them that excuse to, to, to not, to have sporadic communication. So, oh, sorry, I haven't been in touch for a couple of days. The internet was down on the rig or something along those lines.

[00:14:27] Anna: Well, it's an excuse for them to say I've, I haven't got access to my bank, can you send me some funds to top up my Wi Fi and stuff like that. It's um, that's quite a common one that they use with the military and with the offshore workers. But to get, to get a victim into that place obviously depends on the victim.

[00:14:48] Anna: People that suffer with low self esteem, particularly, or low self worth, are extremely susceptible to this as well because the love bombing that goes on can make you feel so wanted [00:15:00] and needed by, um, a person that it's, it's quite overwhelming in a wonderful way, as well as, you know, then turning into this really emotional rollercoaster when the trauma bonding comes in.

[00:15:12] Anna: So, you've had all that really intense relationship. Bombarded around you and then they might disappear for a couple of days and it makes you panic. What on earth? My immediate fallback when mine did it was what have I done? What have I done that he doesn't want to suddenly But that's 

[00:15:30] LouBax: natural, Anna. Like, as well, you go like, people that are susceptible to low self esteem or low self worth, who isn't at some point?

[00:15:38] LouBax: Like, again, situational vulnerability. Who isn't, like, susceptible to that? And also, we, our natural, our natural predisposition is to attend to the negative. So, and we, 99 percent of the things that we think about are about ourselves. So when somebody moves away for no reason, we do go to what have I done?

[00:15:56] LouBax: Cause we attend to the negative rather than, and it's only [00:16:00] then if you can rationalize it and not be trapped. And the way that these crims are so clever, you don't get time to rationalize it because then they're back and they love bomb you. So then you're just relieved that they're back. So can we just talk about what, what, 

[00:16:14] Adam: can we just talk about what love bombing is?

[00:16:16] LouBax: What I do every day at 

[00:16:20] So 

[00:16:20] Anna: it's, I get really annoyed when you get people that have never experienced it, that say they send you a flu, a few flirty messages, and tell you that they love you quickly. And I'm, I'm, I'm seething when I read that kind of stuff because it is the most intense, overwhelming experience that you can go through.

[00:16:40] Anna: They're, they're on you. 24 seven with messages. They are possessive over you. They make you feel like the most important person in their world. They can't be without you. You know, you are made to feel I I've, I've never ever felt in my life. So wanted or needed. by somebody [00:17:00] with what, you know, with how he affected me in that way.

[00:17:04] Anna: So when you, and within all that, and with all the grooming, and they're very good at drawing information out, they have created that fairy tale soulmate, you know, romantic relationship that so many people dream of. At last it's happened. It's my time, you know, to have the good stuff kind of thing. And then they, then that trauma bonding sort of starts and you, you get where they will pull away and then, and then come back and you, you get that horrible emotional rollercoaster of that panic.

[00:17:38] LouBax: Anna, just, just, just from a point of view, so if, if you talk about it, so just, just to just reiterate. So love bombing involves sharing someone with flattery and attention so they become deeply attached, right? Which is where Anna's talking about trauma bonding, right? So if you're, if you're, if you, if you, if you think of your trauma bonds, let's say you've just had a relationship breakup, your trauma bond is a hole, right?

[00:17:57] LouBax: This other person comes to you with a matching [00:18:00] hole. All right. So it's like that. So then what you take, you plug each other's hole. In a non rude way. Alright, I'm not trying to make light of this, I didn't mean that. You've plugged the hole. 

[00:18:11] Right, and 

[00:18:12] LouBax: you're like, we're, this is meant to be. We're meant, and the way that the words are used and the love bombing that's used, it's like, we are meant to be.

[00:18:20] LouBax: This is like, I've never soulmates and all of that stuff, right? And then what that does is sometimes when two people meet who had a similar experience, your traumas can mend. You can, right? Not very often, may I add, especially when in this situation. What that then does, it just deepens it. It causes more damage.

[00:18:42] LouBax: It makes the hole bigger because they are playing on all of your insecurities to make you more attached to them because they sniff out your vulnerability. 

[00:18:53] Anna: Yeah, and he absolutely did. When I said to him, what makes you angry? He said to me poor communication and mind [00:19:00] games and that for me was my instant.

[00:19:03] Anna: Oh my god. He's been hurt, too He's not gonna do it to me. Yeah, and you know, it was it was everything and also, you know I don't make romantic connections with people very often. I haven't in my life I'm not those, you know, we, we see the Americans who go day after day after day and they're, they're happy to have those like, um, I just can't do that.

[00:19:26] Anna: And so when I have an emotional connection with someone in a romantic sense, I fall very deep and I fall very quick, which is the classic symptom of bloody love bombing. And what, you know, so for me not realizing that at that point, when somebody did that back to me, Because they, he got there first. He was so clever.

[00:19:49] Anna: He was the one that put his emotions there. I've never felt like this before. You know, I've never had this. I can't believe how lucky we are to have found each other and all this stuff. It's [00:20:00] everything you want to hear. It's like, I can't believe it. I'm not having to keep quiet about how I feel because I'm going to scare someone off and you know, all this.

[00:20:07] Anna: And it's, it's really quite crazy. It really is. But he very much, um, the fact that he'd, he'd got out of me. He knew I needed to be needed. I loved helping people, hence probably why I do what I do now. But I absolutely, I need to be needed. It's who I am as a person. 

[00:20:28] Adam: I think we can all relate to the fact that it's nice to be wanted, isn't it?

[00:20:31] Adam: It's nice to be nice to be needed by people. Absolutely. So they, once they've, they've, once these criminals have got their trust, they've, they've, they've now got you. Got their victim hooked. 

[00:20:43] Anna: Yeah. 

[00:20:43] Adam: Then they start asking for 

[00:20:46] Anna: They ask for 

[00:20:46] Adam: money. Does it start small and then get big? Or do they just go all in and just try and sort as much as they can?

[00:20:52] Adam: You can often, 

[00:20:53] Anna: yeah, often they do. They'll do little tests of asking for things. If the victim says no, [00:21:00] that's another time with a lot of the victims that I've had that they then disappear again. And then, They will come back and because that victim is then in fear of losing that bloody incredible relationship that they purposefully created, when the ask comes again, The victim is then much more compliant about not risking them disappearing again.

[00:21:23] Anna: It's just, it's absolutely vile. But they're also just really, really clever, the way that they ask for things. When you see it a lot, you can see the pattern so clearly, but you would never know when it's happening, that it's happening like that for a reason. And they're so sophisticated, especially with the technology that's there now.

[00:21:42] Anna: The whole bank account thing. is built very cleverly into the story. So they'll be talking a lot of the time. I get this so much, whatever scenario is being used, they will be talking about how busy they are. The victim has become the only person that they can trust, blah, blah, blah, blah, [00:22:00] blah. Then they're making them feel even more important.

[00:22:03] Anna: I've got these invoices that need paying. Do you think you could log into my bank for me while I'm at work today? Cause I just don't have time. and make a transfer for me. So they've created a fake website that's like a cloned bank website. They give them the login details. They give them the password.

[00:22:20] Anna: The victim goes in. They can see the name they've been told. They can see a picture of the person that they're speaking to. They can see a huge bank balance. They can go in and make a transfer. They come out they message the person to say I've done it for you and they go. Oh my god. Yeah Look, I've just received this notification from the bank to say that there's been a suspicious login into my bank account and they send the fake Notification nothing more said thanks for doing that Bit more time passes then something bad happens I've got this problem.

[00:22:54] Anna: I really don't want to ask, but I, I need to ask for help. We've run out of materials or [00:23:00] something's broken. I need to get this contract finished or I'm going to lose everything and I'm not going to be able to come back. I've managed with all my other business partners to get 90 percent of the money that I need, but I just need this last 10%.

[00:23:15] Anna: Do you think you can help me? You've seen my bank account. You know, I'm good for it. But do you think you can help lend the money? I've tried to get into my bank again today to transfer some more of the money, but it's locked me out because of what we did. So now the victim, not only is in this absolute panic.

[00:23:36] Anna: They also feel some guilt because they're the person that blocked the bank account. And he's saying, you know, when I get home, I've got to get this finished. I can get home. I can go into the bank, get it all sorted out and send you the money. Do you think you can help? And they've got this rush of time, constraint, emotions and desperation.

[00:23:55] Anna: The hot 

[00:23:55] Adam: state. 

[00:23:56] Anna: Yeah. And they've also then got [00:24:00] Either, because they've built this whole cast around them. Cecilia uses a phrase that is so relevant and powerful, and it's immersive theatre, because that's exactly what happens. People think it's just one on one with a victim and a It's 

[00:24:16] Adam: proper organized crime.

[00:24:18] Anna: It's such organized crime, and there is this huge cast that's been created. Friends, colleagues, a lawyer, a child, all messaging this victim. And when the pressure needs to be put on, they will all be messaging. Again, to mind scramble 

[00:24:35] LouBax: them about what's going on. It's about putting people into a state of confusion.

[00:24:39] LouBax: So they don't know the gaslighting. And I know these are all like, um, like cliche words, but it's about pushing them, not just the hot state, but this, this state where you're pushing people into such a state of confusion. They don't know what weighs up or what weighs down. All of these different stuff coming in.

[00:24:53] LouBax: And then what happens is the, the, the main perpetrator, will rescue you from your confusion which [00:25:00] just increases that reliance on that person because they will then they will confuse confuse confuse and then they'll come then they'll switch into like full rescuer rescue you from your confusion provide you with clarity which will give you instant relief which will just make you lean into it more if the whole thing is so clever 

[00:25:23] Anna: It's so clever.

[00:25:24] Anna: Let's just take a step back. I'm so sorry this is happening to you. Let's just take 

[00:25:30] LouBax: a 

[00:25:30] Anna: breather. 

[00:25:31] LouBax: Let me help you work it out. Let's map it out together. Let's plan together. Let's work out a solution together when you're, they're the one that's caused the problem. So I just think, just from our perspective, One of the things we said, like, at the beginning is this blaming the shame stuff.

[00:25:45] LouBax: So we really need to be careful about the language you use. I mean, we work with Anna from the scam scene perspective, and Anna and I are doing some work on, hopefully, a book. Around how, and one of the most important things around this is language. If you do come across somebody that [00:26:00] has been a victim of romance fraud, or romance scams, or in person romance scams, or any of these things, it's really careful not to be like, why did you fall for that?

[00:26:09] LouBax: Because we wouldn't say that about other things. Why would you fall for a, um, why would you fall for a burglary? Or why would you be so stupid? Or why did you think he would find you attractive? Or why do you think she would find you attractive? I hate that. Well, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's so shaming, isn't it?

[00:26:24] LouBax: Because then people start, it will just erode people's self worth even further, which then puts them into more of a victim place, which means essentially they're more susceptible to become a victim of other And like you say, it's the mental health effects. So we need to deal with this with as much empathy or sympathy as we possibly can.

[00:26:44] Anna: And understanding that, you know, I say this over and over in the training we do as well with the police. It's, you've got to understand and remember that every single human being is a unique human being made up of a whole set on a spectrum of [00:27:00] different education, cultural backgrounds, backgrounds, past life experiences, you know, not to mention tech ability or whatever.

[00:27:09] Anna: Yeah. Around that, speaking a different language, English not being your primary language. So, you've got to, everybody has got to respect the fact that every single victim will react differently. in the scam and afterwards. And there is no one glove fits all for that. And it's what we talked about at the House of Commons, Lou, wasn't it?

[00:27:32] Anna: That, you know, victim support and all the other organizations that are out there are absolutely fantastic. But for romance fraud in particularly, it's really important we have a dedicated support group because it's a very, very, not just unique fraud, in that respect, but it also needs long term support.

[00:27:53] Anna: So I've got victims that still come back to me a couple of years later. Normally it's for a good reason now, which is really [00:28:00] brilliant where they've actually found someone in real life and they're happy. And I love getting those stories more than anything, but also they're not worried about coming back to me when anything concerns them.

[00:28:11] Anna: And then we talk it through together. So there's a constant open door you know, policy for people just to come when they, when they want. 

[00:28:19] Adam: So with, with, with Catfish and Love Said, uh, websites, we'll put links on the, in the show notes that is around awareness raising and, and, and talking to people about the fact that this does exist.

[00:28:31] Adam: This is, this is out there and awareness raising is so important, isn't it? 

[00:28:36] LouBax: Also trying to kick law enforcement into doing more about it. That's the other thing from a sort of a pressure point is to push actually to, we, we, societally and law enforcement wise, we need to take this more seriously. And there needs to be more sanctions that come into play when we talk about that.

[00:28:51] LouBax: So, and also, if you're talking about, um, sanctions and prosecuting or potentially investigating, then victims get better victim support [00:29:00] as well. So that drives up that consistent victim support. 

[00:29:02] Anna: Yeah, absolutely. So, Catch the Catfish has been going for seven years now, and it is in itself a whole, like, resource, basically, but it's more, it's more victim based and educational based in that respect.

[00:29:16] Anna: Love Said has moved into, um, Although we haven't got it yet funding wise, we want to build a big community platform for victims away from social media because they can shut you down whenever they fancy it for no reason at all. We, we, we want a specific place of our own for that, but also I do online support groups every, every other week.

[00:29:38] Anna: It was only going to be once a month, but they love it so much that we, we do, we do An hour every other week, which is lovely. Um, also got a little Facebook group for people that only want to communicate that way as support. We've also got, or I've, I've also got, some people just prefer emails. Some people prefer a phone call.

[00:29:57] Anna: You've again, everyone's different and [00:30:00] they prefer a different range of communication and support. So I have as much available as I can in that respect to make it as comfortable for people as they, And 

[00:30:11] Adam: you also go out and you do talks to law enforcement across the country, try and tell them about the importance of this.

[00:30:19] Adam: And to be fair to them, they have started to listen. I mean, I can think of certainly a few police officers that I've spoken to who are really, really keen to help their victims. 

[00:30:32] Anna: It's amazing. You know, I'm in such a privileged position with what I do now and the fact that they, they respect that what comes from victims is actually really valuable.

[00:30:42] Anna: Victims are a huge undervalued resource. They really are. But not only that, I can do things that the police can't. So I can collect information and pass new trends on from both sides, whether it's from the scammer groups or from the amount of victims that I personally speak to. They will tell me a lot more than they will a police officer, so I can gather a [00:31:00] lot more intel and evidence if you like in that 

[00:31:03] LouBax: respect.

[00:31:03] LouBax: It's like you're experts, like we talk about, it's experts by experience. 

[00:31:06] Adam: So how is artificial intelligence changing the landscape of romance fraud? 

[00:31:10] Anna: It's making it a lot more sophisticated in every respect, so the video calls that they used to make using a saved video are now being used With deep fake technology, we have got voice cloning, which is huge across the world being used to make voice notes using, you know, the person whose voice they've stolen.

[00:31:31] Anna: We've got things like chat GPT, which is being used to refine. Those formats that they had been using and it does remember past conversation. We tested it out when I did with the students, so it does remember the past conversation and brings it into context in the future. And we've also got picture manipulation, where they can take either a video or a picture, use the clone voice, and then make that picture say things that they want.

[00:31:59] Anna: That has been [00:32:00] my biggest challenge. The biggest evolving thing that I've seen. It 

[00:32:02] Adam: makes it all so real, doesn't it? It makes it all, even before artificial intelligence, people see what they want to see. They want to believe that that picture's real, so therefore they won't, they won't investigate it or interrogate that picture to, for any kind of signs of tampering.

[00:32:16] Adam: And now we've got artificial intelligence, which is making everything so perfect in terms of the fakery that's around it. That now, even if you wanted to see the fake, you couldn't see it. 

[00:32:26] Anna: Yeah, so the sextortion is not only a standalone thing, it's used very much in romance fraud as well, and the AI, there are apps available to undress an image.

[00:32:36] Anna: So they don't even have to have sent intimate images, they can just pick one, they put it through the app, and it undresses to create the intimate image, and then they blackmail with that. So, we've got that on top of everything else. Maybe 

[00:32:50] Adam: there's a chance of using artificial intelligence to help catch these criminals and disrupt their processes.

[00:32:55] Adam: So maybe there are some positives there. 

[00:32:57] Anna: I hope so. I really hope 

[00:32:59] Adam: so. [00:33:00] 

[00:33:00] Anna: We need it. 

[00:33:01] Adam: Anna, thank you very much. That has been absolutely amazing. I just kind of want to finish up, finish up on, on what, what, what would you say to someone who, It's currently going through or is suspecting that their supposed partner is, is, is a romance fraud or someone who has been a victim of romance fraud.

[00:33:18] Adam: What would be your advice? 

[00:33:19] Anna: I would say don't feel ashamed in any way. You're definitely not alone. This is unfortunately something that's happening on a huge scale across the globe, not even just in our country. Come talk through if you don't want to come and talk to an organization like ours. Open up and talk to a friend or a family member.

[00:33:40] Anna: Get them to put a fresh set of eyes on what's been sent to you, what's going on. Let them see from an outside perspective. It's obviously easier from someone on the outside to look through. Do those reverse image searches but don't take it as gospel if they don't show up, show up that that's not a scammer because [00:34:00] sometimes now they're getting really crafty with the images that they use.

[00:34:03] Anna: So they're using ones that aren't showing up or they manipulate them just enough with AI so that they don't show up on the search, which is also really, really clever. But never feel ashamed about, about it. Come and talk to people and that's going to be our best defense. 

[00:34:22] LouBax: You're not alone. That's the other thing, isn't it?

[00:34:24] LouBax: These things tend to Because as well, just, just, the criminals isolate you. So you're already isolated, but it's really important, like you say, that you talk to somebody because you're not alone in it. You don't need to deal with it in isolation. Absolutely not. Absolutely 

[00:34:40] Adam: not. Anna, thank you very much.

[00:34:41] Adam: That's been absolutely fantastic. We will obviously put the links to Love Said and Catch the Catfish in the show notes and also the link to the Annie Mack podcast for your full story. I'm sure we'll put some other resources in there as well once I think of them. But Anna, thank you so much. 

[00:34:56] Anna: Oh, thank you for having me and for helping to raise awareness.[00:35:00] 

[00:35:00] This is Consumer Friend.