37. The Path to True You: Bridging the Gap to Authenticity and Well-being

Feeling out of sync with your ideal self?
Join us as Lawrence Kalogreades shares his insights on fulfillment and living life authentically. Lawrence is a psychologist and certified psychotherapist whose journey from neuroscience research and clinical psychology have lead him to assisting individuals, couples and families find new solutions to old problems.
In this episode, we explore the human mind and the complexities of our inner world, inspecting the tension that arises when navigating between 'who we are' and 'who we wish to be.' Through the lens of Carl Rogers' humanistic approach, we gain insights into these internal battles. Lawrence shares practical questions to help bridge the gap between our actions and our ideal self. Additionally, he explores compassionate paths to long-term healing for those struggling with panic attacks and anxiety.

0:01Journey Into Psychotherapy Practice
15:05Exploring Personal Incongruence and Authenticity
25:09Understanding Mental Health Coping Mechanism
41:34Navigating Individualism and Self-Improvement
47:37Managing Social Media and Mental Health
1:03:21Finding Fulfillment in Self-Discovery
1:08:08 Overcoming Suffering and Finding Confidence
For more about our guest:
www.lawrencekalogreades.com         
www.instagram.com/kalogreades
www.facebook.com/kalogreades
Other topics include: therapy, find

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Transcript

Speaker 1 0:01

In today's episode, we'll explore psychotherapy with Lawrence Kalogriadis. For him, psychotherapy is more than just a profession. It seems to be a calling. His journey started years ago with extensive research, earning a master's degree in clinical and abnormal psychology as well as neuroscience, and now he runs a private practice where he helps individuals, couples and families overcome their challenges. We're about to dig into his world of psychotherapy and be guided by his wisdom and his experiences along the way. I'd like to thank you for joining us. It's great to have you here, to have the chance to pick your brain, learn about your journey, your experiences and the work you do, so welcome.

Speaker 2 0:36

Hi Desi, thank you very much. Thank you, and I am flattered that you think that I might have some kind of wisdom to impart. I hope I live up to that. Can I tell you the people that say that that really do live up to it.

Speaker 1 0:48

The people that don't believe they have the wisdom Okay.

Speaker 2 0:52

Okay, so double depression no pressure, no pressure.

Speaker 1 0:55

So I wanted to start off with just asking you what led you on this journey, what got you to pursue psychotherapy as a career?

Speaker 2 1:02

Wow, okay. Well, you know what? There was a moment in my life when you know this classic, you're a teenager and you're basically put in the position where you have to choose what you're, kind of theoretically, going to do for the rest of your life. And first I had chosen something completely not irrelevant, but in a completely different direction. And then, sometime before graduating from Lygio, from high school, I realized like I actually spend a considerable amount of time reading on what I thought then were books that were revolving around psychology and I realized that I gravitated naturally to that, even if I didn't have to actually read any of these books. And when I took a good look, I realized that I was actually immersed in that sort of what I thought was the world of psychology and psychotherapy at the time and it just felt very natural and I started off, you know, doing a bachelor's degree in psychology, but that led me in a completely different direction. Again. That's kind of a theme, by the way, where I yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely a theme.

Speaker 2 2:27

I had a course in my. My first ever course in psychology was with this guy called Dr Robert McGivern, and he was fantastic and we developed a bit of a friendship and he introduced me to the world, the then unknown to me world, of what was called physiological psychology, which later on became was referred to as neuroscience or neuropsychology. So it's essentially the study of the, how biological mechanisms lead to what we call cognition and emotion, what we refer to as psychology. And that set me off on a whole other path where I got into like the minutiae of how, how we work as organisms and then I realized that what am I doing? I'm, I'm, fascinated by these questions, but what I've always been most fascinated by is how we understand ourselves in the world, and it very naturally led me back full circle to psychotherapy, which, truth be told, when most people think of psychology, they think of psychotherapy, they don't think of the wider field of psychology, which is an absolutely massive like.

Speaker 2 3:47

They're computer scientists who work in psychology because they make computer models of you know various yeah, based based on the research findings from psychology, they try to expand by making models of all sorts of different things, and so I I swung all the way back to psychotherapy, to working with people.

Speaker 1 4:07

Let's put it that way. So you were more research-based from what you said, you were doing a lot more research and now you've moved towards the people-orientated practice.

Speaker 2 4:16

Yeah, I thought I wanted to be a scientist. I thought I was a scientist and, as it turns out, I'm well okay, dare I say? I hope that may be the case. I think I'm a much better therapist than I'm a scientist.

Speaker 1 4:32

Okay, brilliant. It's good that you moved back, because you're obviously living what you're meant to be doing. You found that path. It's finally all come full circle and you're in the right place to be doing this right. So what do you wish? You knew then when you started this. That is helpful. Now, like before, you went on this journey of trying to discover where you needed to be in terms of work. What would have helped you back then?

Speaker 2 4:55

in in terms of work. Specifically, I think what is really lacking and I don't think it's just in in my field, I think it's in every field when a teenager let's let's be honest, essentially a child is called upon to decide these huge, life-defining parts of their lives, they're not informed on what the day-to-day of being a therapist or an architect or dentist or whatever involves. It sounds nice, I'm interested in it. That's about it. So the very specifics of actually running a practice because at the end of the day, you still have to make ends meet is that you have to take lots of other things into account. And here's another theme in order to be a decent practitioner, I think of psychotherapy we very much need to be able to find a way to also take ourselves into account, because you're putting yourself out there on a daily basis, and, even if it may seem natural or easy, it still requires that we for lack of a better way of putting it take care of ourselves.

Speaker 1 6:31

And now that it's all on social media as well, you're putting yourself out there, but you're also putting yourself out there in a new world that people are not comfortable with. I think as a therapist, for example, you've got to build that as well if you want to start accumulating some interest in your work as well.

Speaker 2 6:47

You don't exist if you're not up there. And uh, sadly, sadly, yeah and yeah, I think.

Speaker 1 6:54

Yeah, we'll get into that later if there's time, about social media. But I wanted to ask I would love to yeah because that's one of. I was looking at your posts and there were so many different like thoughts and posts that were range and I loved so many of them. I was like, how do I narrow it down and just pick a couple of these?

Speaker 2 7:11

this is like going to be like 20 episodes, wherever we land but they were amazing.

Speaker 1 7:16

So I wrote some keywords and stuff down, but what I did want to ask you was when people do want to come work with you. They've seen your posts and one of the the most important aspects of working with you is building trust. How do you establish that from the get-go and give them that feeling of that? You know is it a matter of chemistry, or is it something you actually?

Speaker 2 7:36

know what with them. That's that's a brilliant question, and I think this is actually the cornerstone of psychotherapy, because there's been a lot of research on what's been called evidence-based practices. So essentially trying to figure out a way to more or less standardize psychotherapy in some way, which I think by the way is a bad idea, but anyway, that's a whole other topic.

Speaker 2 8:04

But the thing is that, consistently, what seems to be the deciding factor for a positive or negative outcome in psychotherapy is the relationship that exists between the two people involved, and and there's actually an academic term for this, it's called the therapeutic rapport R-A-P-P-O-R-T and it's, you know, without being genuinely curious and wanting to engage with the other person, and I'm speaking from both sides of the room, both from the therapist's perspective and the client. I refer to the people who come here as clients. It's not a very nice word, but I think it's much nicer than patient. I don't like that word at all, I hate that word.

Speaker 1 8:56

Yeah, I agree, I'd also rather be called client than patient.

Speaker 2 9:01

I don't think there's actually. Yeah, well, I don't think there's anything wrong with these people.

Speaker 1 9:07

Oh, I love that. There's nothing wrong with them. They're not patient. I think that's also controversial.

Speaker 2 9:11

It is I do think it's controversial.

Speaker 1 9:12

Yeah, it's very controversial, yeah, but the thing is that, yeah, to build rapport and that's something that is built together.

Speaker 2 9:21

So I think both sides need to feel that it makes sense, that it clicks. And there's so many variables that decide that that it's impossible to make everyone happy. I don't think that's. That's even the goal, but I'm just saying it, you know, figuratively. I don't think everyone is a good, good match for everyone. Um, simply for the fact that you know some people would be more comfortable with someone who's in his 70s, or with a female therapist or who knows what. Um. So, with that in mind, um just approaching everyone with good faith and kindness, and maybe it's reciprocated and the relationship works, because therapy is something that is built together, it's not something that is done by one side. This is really a relationship. It's not a friendship. This is really a relationship. It's not a friendship. It's not a relationship with the other loaded meanings of the word. It's a therapeutic relationship which requires that both sides kind of take it seriously and with an open mind.

Speaker 1 10:41

Yeah, and what are some misconceptions. Somebody comes to you and they've heard of therapy or they've seen it on tv, or they just what would you like them to get clear from the beginning? What is it and what is it not?

Speaker 2 10:52

busy, you know, just just to prevent this is. I really like your questions. This is good stuff, I'm glad.

Speaker 1 10:58

I'm glad this is to glad. This is awesome.

Speaker 2 10:59

It is a passive process where requires the participation of both sides and it is not something that can be done by somebody else to somebody else. And I mean that, in order to underline that the session lasts 50, at least the way I do it more or less 50 minutes, right, that's not all we have available, right? I mean this person will leave my space or somebody's private practice and then move on into their lives, and they're supposed to, or they can, if they want to continue that process and apply everything throughout their lives. And they're supposed to, or they can, if they want to continue that process and apply everything throughout their lives. And that's something that requires the majority of the effort needs to be put by them, and consistently and on a daily basis. And, uh, you know, that's that's the difficult part, because it's actually it's simple stuff, but it's not easy.

Speaker 1 12:52

Yeah. So it's helping them understand the shift that, yes, they're here. This is a safe space. You're here to be almost like a mirror. Perhaps, yeah, and they need to do the work after that. Right, they need to now start applying and not wait for quick fixes and it's just going to be sorted by the person they've gone to right.

Speaker 2 13:10

They've got to do some work and go to some places they might not be comfortable going. We're going to use our time here together to explore and understand why things are the way they are Now. How they choose to apply those conclusions throughout their life is completely up to them, and the thing is and maybe the important thing is that nobody's going to be there to hold their hand through this, and I think the whole point of psychotherapy, at least in my understanding, is to dare to suggest that you don't need psychotherapy, right, oh, I love that.

Speaker 1 13:51

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You can't be too good at your job. You need to be a little better.

Speaker 2 13:59

That's the tricky part, because when you do a good job, it's done. But you know, all jokes aside, yeah you can't do such a good job.

Speaker 1 14:09

Hold back a little Hold back. So I also wanted to ask you then do you see some common pain points in people that come to you that you're like this is a theme, I see this in a lot of people, and what are those?

Speaker 2 14:22

I guess there are two themes that always seem to come up, but I could dare boil them down to one theme, and everything else is just a, a different flavor of the same thing people are. This is going to sound really trite and basic, but it's more nuanced than that. People are living lives that they don't want to live.

Exploring Personal Incongruence and Authenticity

Speaker 2 14:54

I'd love you to explore on that well here's a point that I like to share with people who come here. I have a deep admiration for a man called Carl Rogers. He was a yeah, he was a psychotherapist who was a huge proponent of what is called the humanistic school of psychotherapy. Other people refer to it as client-centered, client-focused psychotherapy, other people refer to it as client-centered, client-focused psychotherapy. But what this guy did was basically he did something that was revolutionary at the time. I think even now when people think about it, it gives them the chills. He did group therapy in in in the 50s, right in a very conservative america at the time, and he did group therapy. He did really well and he had a huge impact on not just the world of mental health but pop culture in general because he made so many waves. It kind of changed the culture of the time and in one passing, fleeting paragraph of a lecture he gave, at one point he describes this thing called incongruence. Right, incongruence, yeah so what's incongruence?

Speaker 1 16:21

yeah, so what's?

Speaker 2 16:22

incongruence, right. Imagine your ideal vision of who Desi can be right, that version of you that believes what you want to believe. You do what you want to do. You say what you want to say. You're 100% crystal clear, pure Desi right. Maybe at some point in your life you've made a picture of what that looks like. Maybe you've even, or maybe you are, a living embodiment of that ideal right.

Speaker 2 16:56

But nevertheless, when do we have incongruence? We have incongruence when that vision of who you could be, or, dare I say, should be, and what you actually do on a day-to-day basis, if these two don't match exactly one-to-one, then you have incongruence. And incongruence has this psychosomatic aspect to it, where you just get this sense of like, an aversion, and hence physical pressure. It's as if let's completely theoretical example somebody comes along and says oh, desi, I noticed you're just about to leave work. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm going to go, I've got to go and pick up my kids, yeah, but you know this. Uh, this, this really important email just came in. And uh, can you, can you sit down, take it'll only take a couple hours.

Speaker 2 17:55

And you say uh, okay, but no you say yes, okay, but the very core of your being is saying no right how many times?

Speaker 1 18:05

how?

Speaker 2 18:05

many times.

Speaker 2 18:07

You know this is a really concrete example of of what incongruence looks like, because it's really obvious what, what. The difficult part is, you know, saying yes to something that you want to say no to. But the thing is that this kind of dynamic plays out in the entirety of our lives, and it may be in much more nuanced ways, whether that means living where I'm living, to being who I am, to how one expresses their sexuality, to who they've partnered up with, to their beliefs about the world being shattered and who they should be in that world. And you know, ultimately and here's the other flavor I was talking about it denotes a sort of existential crisis at play. Who am I in this world? What am I doing? Because whatever it is that I'm doing, it's not what I should be doing, and that is, I think, at the core of many, many sessions that I hold with people.

Speaker 1 19:26

So how can you help people start to get closer to who they should be or what they should be doing, so to maybe lessen this gap of incongruency? Right right, make it smaller.

Speaker 2 19:38

Yeah.

Speaker 1 19:39

Little practices, little things, they can start showing up truly as themselves and what they really want to do, without being also egotistical. And also, you know, there's a balance.

Speaker 2 19:47

I think as well. Definitely, I mean, there are very real reasons and logical reasons. Even if they may be buried very deeply, nevertheless there are logical reasons as to why things are the way they are right now. There are reasons why we have instinctively felt that whatever it is we're doing is the best possible option. But the thing is, I like your question what should we do? And I think that's a very reasonable question. What should we do? And I think that's a very reasonable question. Right, what should we do? And I think it might even be one of the first questions that people ask when they walk through the door.

Speaker 2 20:33

But yeah what should I be doing is? You know, it's a whole process. First of all, you have to imagine okay, well, what should I be doing? Alternatively, then, how do I implement that? Then I have to actually implement it. Then I have to get feedback from that whole process. Then I have to adjust it. That needs a lot of time and resources and, of course, that's something that can be, and perhaps should be done by everyone. But before that, I think there's a much more important and perhaps even practical, more practical question what is it that you're currently doing that is keeping things the same or making them worse? Right, because if you can identify that, then all you have to do is less, right?

Speaker 1 21:30

Yeah. So let's repeat that because I think that's a really important question. So what is it that you're doing?

Speaker 2 21:35

in the present, that is, keeping things the same or making them worse.

Speaker 1 21:42

So what's keeping you stuck?

Speaker 2 21:43

yeah, because that's an active thing like, even if it's, I'm not getting involved in something that I actually want to get involved in. Like I want to avoid the conflict yeah, but that's. It's not that you're not doing anything. You're choosing, yeah, you're choosing to back away from that.

Speaker 2 22:01

You're choosing to back away from that. You're choosing to avoid a conflict that perhaps inevitably has to happen, and there's a huge number of examples of how this dynamic can play out. And just a little parenthesis out and just a little parenthesis. Uh, I think a lot of people, when they ask about how to deal with things, they tend to generalize or want the exact opposite some very specific, tailored answer, and I think, that's a trap yeah because they're eight billion.

Speaker 2 22:43

I think that's the human population eight billion the therapist is not supposed to know the answers. Right, you're not supposed to know the answer because nobody has the answer. The only person who has access to that sense of incongruence and knowing where I am and how I feel spontaneously about my life is the person themselves. The therapist only has questions and experience. That's it.

Speaker 1 23:18

There are no answers yeah, so it's part of also the process helping your client get clear with what do I want? What's that, what does that? You said in the beginning that ideal self. So defining that, uh, as a beginning point, because if you don't know what that is, how are you going to? Get there right. Important question who do I want to be today? Who do I? Want to be in this moment. Who do I want to be for my children? Who I want to be?

Speaker 2 23:44

well, I, I work. I lay it out in a way that I think is um, you know, just, I like a bit of drama, so who would I have to be in order to look myself in the mirror at the end of the day and feel that I'm proud of how I handled things? All right, because when we have that sense of letting ourselves down and I don't mean, you know, oh, I, I didn't win or did. No, we're not talking about that I mean we. We're talking about how comfortable am I with the way that I approached all the different temptations, challenges, questions of the day. Did I live up to who I know I should be living up to? I mean, of course, we want to make our kids proud and people around us proud. We want to be a good example. But there's a part of us deep down that we know when we're doing something we shouldn't, we know that we're letting ourselves down.

Speaker 1 24:51

And that's the part of us that we need to, you know, look in the eye and be honest with do you think that's what grows and causes also the psychosomatic challenges we have in our bodies when we physically start feeling pain?

Speaker 2 25:05

Well, you know what?

Understanding Mental Health Coping Mechanisms

Speaker 1 25:07

Could that also be what leads to it?

Speaker 2 25:09

There's a bit of a heretical streak in psychotherapy and mental health in general that suggests that, in a sense, these sorts of let's put it differently things that we often refer to as the problem are actually the solution, in the sense that, let's say, somebody has a friend who is drinking themselves to sleep every night, who's drinking themselves to death. In a sense we're thinking, oh my God, we have to help this person stop drinking. They have to stop drinking. We need to step in somehow, and of course that's something that we would want to help and support and take that bottle out of the hand and so on and so forth. But it's not the alcohol that's the problem. The alcohol is the solution that that person found for whatever it is that they perceive to be unfathomable challenge in their life, and that's where psychopathology comes up. And that's where psychopathology comes up, that's how panic attacks come up, that's how anxiety disorders come up, it's this sense of somehow this is too much to bear. And the solutions that people spontaneously come up with and this is completely unintentional. It's, I'm not going to say unconscious, but we try and find ways that work, and we're a very complicated organism. You know, homo sapien sapien has been around for 150 000 years at least, and we've got millions of years of evolution before that. We have a brain that is you know it's. It's bigger than we are. In a sense, we think we have this picture of who we are, but there are all these other parallel processes happening in the background that pull us in all sorts of different conflicting directions. And so we, in order to deal with all these, with the difficulty of being a human being, maybe we drink, but the problem isn't the drinking.

Speaker 2 27:23

The drinking is the solution, which would imply that the problem is something else. The problem is that somehow I perceive that in some ways my life is stuck, there's nothing I can do, I'm trapped, I've hit bottom. It is the relief that somehow I cannot take action in my own life other than to drink, and you know I'm using alcoholism because that, that is a it, it. It's a much more active experience than is, let's say, say, panic attack. Right, Because we perceive panic attacks as something that happens to us. And yet, dare I say, a lot of these quote-unquote experiences that we would refer to diagnostically as mental health disorders and so forth, if we look at it this way, it becomes clear that they are kind of the coping mechanisms that the human organism has designed over millions of years of evolution in order to deal with very real human, complicated problems.

Speaker 1 28:34

So I'm, I'm, oh, go on go on, I was just is the panic attack the signal to? It's like a warning, a reminder. It's like something exactly. It's trying to say something something is yeah calling, yeah, your attention, look it's trying to say something.

Speaker 1 28:51

Find someone you know. So if someone is listening and has panic attacks, what would you say to that person come, find someone how to handle it, like when they're in that moment where they think like everything's going to fall apart and they don't know how to handle it. What would you say to this?

Speaker 2 29:07

person. It's okay, it's okay you know, no, nobody's uh nobody's died of a panic attack.

Speaker 1 29:15

I think that's that's something to always keep in mind, and the more we try to fight the panic attack, the bigger it gets so when they're in that moment, when I was teaching at a high school there were a lot of kids that would go through it and they would like go into like complete panic mode. When they're in that moment, what can you help them do in that specific moment? Just to settle them, so that they can then later go and handle it, so that they're not scared that they're going to die or that something terrible is going to happen.

Speaker 1 29:43

How can you help them in that panicked moment as a bystander or someone who just wants to?

Speaker 2 29:49

yeah, you know, I think ultimately, and perhaps with everything in life. You know I I said earlier, you know generalizing, here I am generalizing, but anyway we will do.

Speaker 1 30:01

We need to generalize.

Speaker 2 30:03

Yeah, I think what, what everyone actually wants is to be hugged and be told that. You know I'm here if you want to talk about it. Because, beyond that, when it comes to panic attacks specifically, sit down, take some deep breaths deep and controlled, as much as possible breaths and it will eventually pass. But there's, as you said before, panic attacks. They're simply trying to say something and there's this pattern in panic attacks called the sort of vicious circle of panic attacks. So, essentially, someone might have some unknown to them physical ailment, like they have an issue with their heart or an infection in their lungs or whatever, and they're out there doing sports or just enjoying their day and suddenly they get this pain in the chest or in the shoulders and they're like oh my god, you know, I remember my doctor mentioned that if you get this pain in the shoulder blades, that it might be a sign of a, you know, like a, some kind of a heart attack or something like am I, am I having a heart attack? But what's what's going on, right? Oh my god, could I be, am I helpless right now and having a heart? And then it spirals into a panic attack and then, once that subsides after 5, 10, 15 minutes, whatever it takes, it always passes.

Speaker 2 31:35

Then that person is suddenly thrust into a whole new universe which is oh, oh, so I have panic attacks too, now, yeah, and, and then, and then they're, they're vigilant for every little physical ache and pain as being a possible sign of a panic attack, which amplifies and encourages, so to speak, the next panic attack, and it becomes a cycle. And that's the thing we um. What we can do is sit down and explore when does it happen? Why does it happen? Because, why does it happen? Because I'm going to say something that was mentioned once. I thought it was very apt. I asked do you have panic attacks in your office? And this person replied and they weren't the only person to say this, but this was a very specific thing Panic attacks at work. I don't have time for that Just completely spontaneously.

Speaker 2 32:53

I don't know if I should be laughing Well, because it is humorous because it suggests that even the panic attack, even this sense that I'm losing control, is controlled somehow. It doesn't come out of nowhere. It comes in specific contexts and specific situations that are not only considered permissible, but also the ones that are considered important. They come up when we're put in specific situations that a part of us wants to highlight as perceiving as somehow threatening which should probably be what we focus on.

Speaker 2 33:42

Why is that situation, the situation that brings this up? What are the characteristics of that situation?

Speaker 1 33:50

What are some characteristics? Is it avoidance? Is it stress, extreme stress? I know you don't like to generalize, but just some themes again that could lead to this Well, what is it that most people want?

Speaker 2 34:06

to regain.

Speaker 1 34:07

Control.

Speaker 2 34:08

Exactly there you go, it's control.

Speaker 2 34:12

So it's a way of controlling situations without realizing that too, that too, and it's also perhaps in a sense a cry for help to oneself about coming to terms with the fact that I don't have control the way I thought I did over my life. And you know, sometimes that might manifest as having a panic attack when we sit behind the steering wheel and there's an unruly driver ahead of us, almost causing an accident. Maybe they do cause an accident, and that puts us in this. You know, all these different things phobias, anxiety disorders, panic attacks they're all intimately related, not just because they're similar emotional states, but because they bring to the fore the fact that we don't really have complete control of ourselves, never mind the world around us.

Speaker 2 35:20

And I guess the question that arises in psychotherapy is well, how do I come to terms with that? And I think that's pretty much here I am generalizing again the theme of psychotherapy how do I come to terms with the fact that, well, the fact that life is this is very unfashionable what I'm going to say, but life is hard, the life is unfair, life is is, in a sense, tragic and set up in ways that are fundamentally against us. And to go back to what you mentioned before, with social media we're so consistently pumping ourselves on a daily basis with an infinite stream of yeah. But look at these people who are having a wonderful time and they have a loving family and their babies don't cry and they're in bed by 7, 30 and yeah, yeah and. And just this? Why? Why aren't I managing to do that and coming to terms and sort of embracing and accepting and maybe even loving ourselves, despite the fact that we're not pulling it off is, I think, the cornerstone of psychotherapy.

Speaker 1 36:49

Yeah, and I like that you said that this is not a popular opinion when you said that life is hard and unfair.

Speaker 1 36:55

What we're seeing also in personal development and personal growth is also this constant need for positivity and showing what's going great, and I think we need to see more of the other side, that you know there's struggle, that there's. How did you overcome something? Because, also, I'm interested in personal development. But a lot of this sometimes has me in this push and pull feeling of, yes, I want to grow, yes, I want to better myself and develop myself, but I also find that this can be so overwhelming sometimes with all the messages out and all these gurus, and it can also feel frustrating and exhausting. And I also want to go back to the need of self-acceptance and self-compassion, like what you mentioned earlier. How can we find a balance between, yes, there are things I want to improve, there are things I want to better in my life, but also finding this balance of not being stuck in this unachievable standards?

Speaker 1 37:45

I think um of morning routines and all this extra pressure we already have so much, so it's I'm finding it very frustrating at this stage in my life right, right, right, yeah, I, I.

Speaker 2 37:58

I really like what you said, because I think I even jokingly mentioned this to you over the phone when we spoke earlier that I consider myself a demotivational speaker.

Speaker 1 38:15

I do love that.

Speaker 2 38:17

Because I have a deep sense of the gentlest way to put it would be distrust, never mind, maybe even aversion, for all the books that line the shelves of bookstores under the label psychology self-help.

Speaker 1 38:38

And at the end of the day, there's so much.

Speaker 2 38:40

Well, yeah, I mean who wouldn't want to be a better person, right? I mean, if we're being honest with ourselves, we could always be better parents, better friends, better partners, better everything. But I think it is perhaps dangerous to a moment where somehow the anger that we have towards our maybe parents, relatives, loved ones for whatever perceived injustice or or mishandling of a situation will be resolved. Do we really think that there will be a moment where okay, I'm done dealing with my childhood or the past? It's not going to happen. We're going to constantly surprise ourselves by the ingenuity with which we can remind our present self that suffering exists, and not only within our lives and the stories that we tell ourselves but, by extension, the world itself. I mean, does this mean that we surrender? You know that we kind of give up and we just get swallowed by all this.

Speaker 2 40:17

Obviously, not not by any stretch, but we should go out there and explore ourselves and the world and push our limits and try to maybe conquer things that we thought were unconquerable, even if we know that it's impossible. But I think maybe what's missing is that it would be more helpful if we did all this from a perspective of kindness. Right, For example? The simplest example I can think of is it would be kind to ourselves if we began this journey when the going is good, right, when things are going well, not when things are falling apart, and then we say, okay, now I guess I have to change something, because I think that's the trap of self-help it keeps saying push, push, come on, you can do more. Yeah, yeah, go, go, go. Look at what other people are doing. Why aren't you a billionaire yet? What are you doing wrong?

Navigating Individualism and Self-Improvement

Speaker 1 41:33

And you know it also…. I mean, we do adopt some of these beliefs. We start to believe that it does start with us. It has to at some point. We do need to assume responsibility, but at the same time, it's not a black and white. I think this is the trick of navigating this.

Speaker 2 41:49

I think that is informed and colored by this very particular set of circumstances that we're living in right now, where we are at the peak of what ideologically could be called individualism.

Speaker 2 42:14

Individualism right, we value being an individual versus. It might even sound horrific right now to say belonging to a group, having a group identity, belonging to a community. These are things that we always say oh yeah, it would be healthy to belong to a certain community of like-minded people, but when we actually try and put that in action, we feel kind of you know, this is, this is, this goes against who I am, this requires compromises and so on and so forth, and therefore, of course, we're all looking at each other on social media, but basically we're really looking at ourselves and we're looking at our own profiles and thinking how does this look to me, how does this look to other people, building a brand for ourselves. It's very narcissistic of all of us. It's not that we're guilty of this. It's just where things are right now of this. It's just where things are right now and of course, it's all up to us. But we're not all powerful, we're not infallible.

Speaker 2 43:15

We're gonna mess up, we're gonna make mistakes, we have messed up we have made mistakes so many times many times and I think yeah, and if anything, I think, sure, go out and help yourself become a better person, whatever that means. But remember that you're a huge amount of uncertainty, fear, temptation and and you know the human experience that comes along with it. Because what I hear when I when I read self-help books, when I listen to self-help podcasts, is essentially oh you're tired, come on, push, why aren't you pushing? Or oh, you're afraid. Well, that's just an emotion. Emotions aren't real, really.

Speaker 1 44:17

Really, do some say that that emotions aren't real, or is there more of a push to feel your emotions? It depends, I guess, who's saying it and where it's coming from. I've heard both sides emotions and you know, understand, it depends.

Speaker 2 44:28

I guess who's saying it and where it's coming from. There's a multiplicity of voices out there, but they're all kind of pushing for this idea that you know. It's very sad to say this one of my favorite books it's. It's stoicism is a huge thing.

Speaker 1 44:49

It's a huge thing yeah, and you know I need to read more.

Speaker 2 44:55

This is one thing to be proud about being Cypriot it's that stoicism began in Cyprus. That's a wonderful thing to say finally something good.

Speaker 1 45:05

And what did?

Speaker 2 45:05

we do. We had Zeno's face on a coin that uh isn't made anymore, and there's a bust somewhere in the square in larnaca with his face on it. That's, that's it. That's as much as we can. That's all we get that's it. That's all we get, I guess, so yeah but there is this stoicism, informed kind of, and it's not stoic. I just think it's like we've misconceived certain things as to thinking that what a real person should do is not not pay attention to these, um, inconveniences, that are the emotions you know like oh, you're falling in love, oh, okay, that's, that's you know what a, what a

Speaker 2 45:56

weakness, or oh, you're afraid, oh, you know. Well, you should be pushing beyond. Well, okay, I get it. Yeah, we have this rational mind that is constantly telling us other things and casting fear and doubt, but we're more complicated than that, and I think you know there's this Another thing that's fetishized in this day and age is Zen, right? So this idea that is Zen, right? So this idea that somehow you're sitting cross-legged and there's a nuclear explosion behind you, you can't meditate.

Speaker 1 46:36

I've tried, I can't do it.

Speaker 2 46:39

I've tried.

Speaker 1 46:40

Yeah, I'm glad, yeah, yeah, Well, it is an unbelievable wealth of information. The philosophy is amazing.

Managing Social Media and Mental Health

Speaker 2 46:49

Of things to take into account. But there's this one brilliant Zen scholar from like one and a half thousand years ago and he wrote this, or other people wrote a book on what he said, and one of them begins with a saying of his about what Zen really is. And you know, I'm sure I'm going to piss off If there's anyone who's actually into Zen. Listen to this. What are you talking about? But anyway, speaking openly here, he says when hot, then hot. When cold, say that again, yeah, and when cold, then cold, and that's it. That's that's it, that's it right in the sense of okay, you've got your spontaneous experience of the world and maybe whatever it is that's happening right now is welling up a deep feeling of anger within you, a deep feeling of anxiety or joy, who knows what. That's not a problem. You're a human being.

Speaker 2 48:01

The problem is to expect that somehow that shouldn't be happening, that you should be able to control that, and I think the trap in a lot of mental health literature and self-help is that somehow, somewhere along the way, we cultivated the belief that I can keep doing what I'm doing without changing anything. I'm going to find a way to still live a life I don't want to live, but not be angry about it. No, not going to happen.

Speaker 1 48:33

Interesting Without changing the essence, the actual, the links, the actual roots of it, right, just like you're polishing the surface of it.

Speaker 1 48:41

You're not really going down and making changes right, because it can be deceiving for yourself, you know, and telling yourself a lie that it's sorted or that you've done a practice, just to cover it up a little bit, and then it comes back again. So I think we've got to be really selective with, basically, who we're following, what we're letting in. I remember seeing this post and it really stood out for me. I wish I'd saved it and it was brilliant. It was something like you know. You see, you allow so many people into your house every day on social media, right? So would you allow a stranger to come into your house and give you all this information, tell you about their lives, complete stranger and like, just bombard you with so much like? Why are we doing that on social media? Now, this is hard, this is I mean. It's there and you get the, the feeds what the?

Speaker 1 49:32

algorithms what they decide to spout out at you, so we still show up for it. It's almost like you're not connected if you're not on in a way right that there's um, and I admire people that can live a life without having to connect at all online. I think that's going to be very rare now as we move forward. But how can we find the balance to still coexist with this a little bit more and have a healthy relationship with it, so that we're not consumed by what we're seeing and influenced?

Speaker 1 50:03

in negative ways, I think negative ways, I think.

Speaker 2 50:10

Can we have a healthy relationship with it? I don't know. I don't know, because we're talking about an entire industry that is creating platforms, not content. We're making the content. That that's. That's the trick that we've been. We've each individually been given a stage where we're a star and we're told well, the stage is there, you're gonna, you're gonna show up, you're gonna stand up on the stage. I mean, we, we will, we'll watch, we might even cheer, aren't you gonna join in? You have your own stage.

Speaker 2 50:42

Finally, you always wanted this. That's what people dreamed of 20, 30, 40, 50, 100 years ago. That someone would. You know they've. There was even a term for this. You know, you're 10 minutes of fame, you know 15 minutes, whatever it was. Now we can potentially have that on a daily basis and it's a huge temptation. And of course, we all jump in because we want to watch what other people are doing and this and that. But ultimately, the trap is that we get sucked in and it starts becoming a way of interacting with the world that is kind of not interacting with the world.

Speaker 1 51:28

Absolutely. It creates more isolation, I think, and more distance.

Speaker 2 51:31

Now okay maybe when was it 15 years ago? Something like that I was part of. Well, I was running this thing called the Safer Internet Hotline, the CIFRS. So it was this European initiative and local NGOs set it up. We set it up and it was essentially a hotline for parents and kids to you know, call in and get some support regarding what was what they might have been experiencing online. Now, the thing is that that was that wasn't really the zeitgeist at the time in cyprus, because it was still very new. People of you know, parents were not on facebook, they weren't on social media, and now the the overwhelming majority of young parents are also on there and they have kids who either are or will be on social media. So we're talking about a very different time back then. So it was new and, as a consequence, people referred to research in that field back then as new media. How funny is that?

Speaker 1 52:49

oh wow, how long ago was that 15, 15 years ago, yeah, around then.

Speaker 2 52:54

Yeah, new media, right like this thing that's in our pocket the whole time um, and there was some interesting research coming out and, for example, teenagers would quote unquote test drive an identity online.

Speaker 2 53:14

This was back when there were message boards and messaging apps and all sorts of things where you could more or less anonymously participate Much more than now than like on Facebook facebook where you kind of have to be yourself, uh, and people could quote unquote be yourself, whatever that means, yeah, and kids would go online and they would kind of rehearse what it would be like to express their sexuality, for example, or to take on an identity that perhaps they considered wouldn't be permissible in their daily life, or it's different, it's new, and if they got a positive response to that, then they'd start adopting it in their daily offline life.

Speaker 2 54:07

I thought that was very interesting because obviously, yeah, there are some positives to this world. This multiplicity has allowed people to be themselves in some ways, in a fashion that was perhaps unimaginable before. But at the same time, we go to schools and have conversations with kids, and I'm talking about conversations more like give a presentation to 300 kids and then be available for them to to chat, and I'd always kind of mention a specific example because, like I mentioned before, I like the drama. I'd suggest what if someone came up to you in the street and said hey, can I? How about you show me some photos of you in your swimsuit from last summer? You got some of that I'd like to look at some of that.

Speaker 1 55:06

Oh my goodness, that's a brilliant.

Speaker 2 55:07

I'd like to look at some of that right, wouldn't you like dial whoever's closest to come and intervene police everyone. Maybe you'd even punch this person, but here we are 15 years.

Speaker 1 55:23

How great how, exactly?

Speaker 2 55:25

How crazy. How is it so normal now? It's so normal that we don't even question any of this, and it's all very new. So you asked me originally how can we approach this in a healthy way? I honestly have no idea. I don't even know how. I mean, let's put it this way, it's again, again with the drama. But you know it's like asking someone well, how can I, how can I, like try out heroin and keep it healthy? Is there such a thing like? Can you do that?

Speaker 2 56:02

I don't know now you've gone all the way, with all the way that's true, though.

Speaker 1 56:09

It's true, and even as a you know, we were adults. We think we've got a handle on it, on it I've wasted so much time on social media and then beat myself up over it like where did that time go? You start just like scrolling one thing and then it's gone and you're like I'm using the drama, exactly because we, as fully grown adults, do not know how to deal with the.

Speaker 2 56:35

I don't even know what it is the joy of having your attention hacked to such an extent that you just yeah all the time we don't know how to deal with that? How can we possibly expect that our kids't know how to deal with that? How can we possibly expect that our kids will know how to deal with it?

Speaker 1 56:52

yeah, I was thinking that what hypocrites we are, especially like. Yeah, you're telling them to, you know, get on less, and then you're sitting there. That's the hard one finding a way to coexist with it, because it's not going to go away. It's actually like you said everything's going to be online, everything. Everything has become, especially since COVID. Everything's become even more magnified online. So, yeah, it's not going away. We all know this. We just have to find ways to. I don't know how yet, but when you figure it out, let me know.

Speaker 2 57:20

Well, I've taken a fair few apps off my phone.

Speaker 1 57:24

Yeah, that's okay.

Speaker 2 57:29

So tell me what's worked for you. Maybe is it working for me I don't know, I have no idea.

Speaker 1 57:32

You probably replaced them with some new, just refresh the bbc website over and over. At least you're looking at bbc websites, yeah, but you know what? Even even the bbc?

Speaker 2 57:43

website. You can tell by the way that the news is written now that it has a dose of clickbait. Yeah, a heavy dose of clickbait. I go to Daily Mail often and I do it every day almost, and I'm like why am I back here?

Speaker 1 58:00

Why Daily Mail? I don't know. It's just one of those things.

Speaker 2 58:03

It's as if we exist in a space of just perpetual now.

Speaker 2 58:09

And, honestly, not joking, this is going to sound ridiculous. You're going to say, lawrence, you're being dramatic again. But I'm going to be completely honest If you told me that it's May 2020, I'd believe you. It's as if COVID was yesterday and it's just this endless sequence of events where the news cycle just dominates our lives and every 24 hours there's some something new that we should be shocked by. And I don't think we're even shocked, but I think we're entertained by it, and that might be the most dangerous part that everything has become entertained. I think even the news that we read about the war is somehow something that, yeah, it's shocking, but it's also. I mean, of course, this has been common practice since the days that somebody took the initiative to print something and sell it. Of course you want to make it a good story. You want to make it something that people would prefer to read over somebody else, but now that it's with us 24-7 and available at any moment, when was the last time that you sat down for 10 minutes and just did nothing?

Speaker 1 59:34

No, that reminds me of another topic I wanted to bring up because I think on another episode. You mentioned how difficult it is just to sit and be and do nothing and we always have this feeling of wanting to be busy and doing, doing, doing. I forgot my phone one day. I went drop off my my son in his music lesson and I was sitting in the car without a phone how did we survive?

Speaker 1 59:56

to be that's in a car and I was like my first instinct was to reach for my bag and to scroll, while I had you know like time. I had 40 minutes to wait for him and I was like my phone is not what will I? Before I used to pull out a book or something and I felt so disorientated because I didn't have my phone with me and it was almost like we forget how many times we reach out and we just check something. We check the time, the news, listen to a podcast, I don't know. It's always there. So that made me realize I actually have an addiction to my phones.

Speaker 2 1:00:26

We all do.

Speaker 1 1:00:27

It's scary, yeah, and so sitting quietly without anything. I think this is one of the biggest challenges that we're facing without having to do or be, whether it's clean the house or take care of something or take my kids somewhere, it's just sitting.

Speaker 2 1:00:43

Well, there's a danger in that. Well, there's a danger in that, and that's that we will kind of come face to face with whatever it is that we're diverting our attention away from. We have to actually sit down and face, okay, so this is who I am, this is what I'm doing, now that I have time to think, rather than consume. Now I have to deal with all these other big topics, and I think that's kind of where psychotherapy comes into the picture, because the whole premise is that we spend 50 minutes focusing on you.

Speaker 1 1:01:25

That's why it's very uncomfortable for a lot of people.

Speaker 2 1:01:28

When the spotlight is really on us, it becomes uncomfortable yeah, yes, and it's not the the social media spotlight there are no filters here this is the no filter one.

Speaker 1 1:01:41

Ah, so, to end off and to wrap up, because this was amazing. You gave so much. You see, you said had no wisdom, but look how much you shared.

Speaker 2 1:01:50

I'm sure you'll find a way to edit this and make me sound intelligent, desi, I'm sure you'll figure it out.

Speaker 1 1:01:56

I don't think I need to do anything. To be honest, where can people find you if they want to reach out and get some help or just to see if this is a fit for them? They want to talk about something?

Speaker 2 1:02:11

Yeah, wwwlaurencekellergerhattiescom. That's a mouthful, I know, but there you go, that's my name and there is a contact form on the page and just fill in the details right there.

Speaker 1 1:02:22

Yeah, and it's also virtual right. You do online sessions and you also, I do online sessions.

Speaker 2 1:02:31

That's become much more of a thing now since since covid, but I always encourage people to try and, you know, if it's possible to have at least one session in person, maybe ideally a first session in person. So we each get the chance to build on that rapport that we mentioned before.

Speaker 1 1:02:52

But I wanted to ask you to end off with some parting thoughts. Maybe it's a favorite quote or something that has had a great impact on your work or even on your own personal life.

Finding Fulfillment in Self-Discovery

Speaker 2 1:03:01

Right, you know what. I want to kind of touch on what we mentioned before, because ultimately, we did start talking about psychotherapy and why someone would start and how they would start and the importance of rapport. Now here's something that I notice a lot of people being challenged by. They try to find the right therapist, right, and they'll ask you know well, what is his expertise, what does he or she know about? And you know, what do they have experience in? And there might even be this desire or expectation to somehow find a good example within a therapist and there'll be this judgment towards them.

Speaker 2 1:03:55

And, of course, part of therapy is what we call projection. Right, we're going to project on the person, on the therapist, on the face of the therapist, all sorts of different things, but ultimately, I think it's important to remember that therapists are people too. Why am I saying that? Because the only difference between the therapist and the client is that the therapist is dedicated his or her life to assisting other people in navigating through their challenges. Right, that's the only difference. I'm saying that because, of course, your therapist is also facing challenges.

Speaker 2 1:04:40

They might even be messed up, who knows?

Speaker 1 1:04:42

Right.

Speaker 2 1:04:44

Yeah.

Speaker 1 1:04:44

I think the best therapists are probably the most messed up.

Speaker 2 1:04:47

Because they've been messed up. I'm sorry. Well, I'll take best. Therapists are probably the most nice Because they've been there for a while. I'm sorry, well, I'll take that as a compliment.

Speaker 1 1:04:56

So you can't be very good.

Speaker 2 1:04:58

Well, you know everyone. I'm saying this to kind of pull back and not focus on therapists or therapy anymore. Everyone is on a journey of their own. Nobody has a map, no one knows where they're going. No one has a map, no one has a predetermined journey that they have to navigate through.

Speaker 2 1:05:21

And I think what to kind of summarize everything the allure of self-help and, I think, the majority of social media is that it gives us the impression that somehow there's an answer to all these questions, there is a map that someone can provide us because they walked through this.

Speaker 2 1:05:40

Then I'll walk the same way and I I feel safer now. But actually, let's boil it down and be honest nobody has the map for your own life. It's up to you to figure it out. There are ways to do it in cooperation with other people, but it's up to each and every one of us and I do think that, as challenging as that may sound, I think we're all capable of doing that. I I think we all. Not only are we capable, I think there's a deep sense of fulfillment in figuring out what that journey is and acting towards it. It's a completely and since you mentioned the quote, that I think is motivating in a sense, as much as I hate that word. It's the difference between feeling like we're fighting against something you know, fighting against the pressures and dangers of the world, versus living a life where we're fighting for something. That's a completely different universe.

Speaker 1 1:06:56

Yes, so having purpose right, Having some kind of purpose to our existence rather than just selfishly mean.

Speaker 2 1:07:03

Well, maybe, ultimately, it's up to that person to figure out what that means for them. And I guess there is a dose of me, me, me and subjectivity, because you know, whether we like it or not, we're all the center of the universe, as in. You know, I'm the center of my world, you're the center of your world. Of course, you're in the equation of what does fulfillment look like, of what does fulfillment look like, but you know, nevertheless, I do think there's a way to do it that is perhaps healthy and engaging and makes sense of all the hardships and sufferings that we put ourselves through in the meantime.

Speaker 1 1:07:47

And just sort of one more thing. So, somebody who comes to you, what do they ultimately want to get from the therapist like to feel that this is going to work. What do they need to hear when they've taken that step and they decided to come find help? What are they seeking in that moment? What do they want to know?

Speaker 2 1:08:08

I get the impression that, honestly, what most people start off hoping for is to somehow end the suffering. And when I say suffering, because there are many different types of suffering, it can just be the anxiety about one's performance at work, in life, which ultimately boils down to their self-esteem and their picture of themselves in the world, and again we go back to meaning and fulfillment. Or it might be grief, it might be shame, it might be anything, but I think ultimately, what to go full circle? What stops people from participating in therapy anymore, like they say, okay, we're done, or I suggest that maybe we're done is that they realize that they've got this, I can do it.

Speaker 2 1:09:12

I'm not supposed to know how. It's going to be scary, but I feel confident in myself that, whatever comes up, I will find a way, I will persevere. And if anything, if our species has managed anything throughout its existence, it's exactly that. There's no other animal that lives, from the highest peaks to the driest parts of the world, to the coldest parts of the world. There are humans everywhere. We figure out, we explore, we persevere, and I think we can do that in our own individual daily lives also.

Speaker 1 1:09:51

Thank you. That's brilliant, see, so that was quite in fact motivational.

Speaker 2 1:09:59

Oh, the shame, the shame. Thank you so much, lawrence.

Speaker 1 1:10:03

I really enjoyed talking to you and learning all about your work Likewise.

Speaker 2 1:10:06

Debbie, it was awesome. Thank you so much. Pleasure was all mine learning all about your work. Likewise, debbie, it was awesome. Thank you so much. Pleasure was all mine. Thank you for your time. Thank you for inviting me.