#276 Redrawing Electoral Maps, Should Albertans be Concerned?

We ask Naheed Nenshi, the leader of the official opposition of Alberta, why Alberta’s government is stepping into electoral boundary drawing and what that could mean for fairness at the ballot box. 

We talk through how gerrymandering works, why courts may get involved, and why public pressure still matters even when politics feels heavy. 

• Why Canada relies on independent boundaries commissions to protect fair elections 
• What changed between the interim report and the political blowback on the final report 
• How a new advisory panel without public hearings shifts power toward government control 
• What “gerrymandering in slow motion” looks like in practical terms for Calgary, Edmonton, and nearby communities 
• How vote dilution can affect urban voters, racialized communities, and rural representation 
• Why the notwithstanding clause does not apply to electoral rights 
• how legal challenges could cost money and delay change while elections approach 
• Why “politicians shouldn’t choose their voters” is the core democratic test 
• The simplest actions regular Albertans can take to push back 
• The little-bird story as a guide for civic responsibility and Seva 


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Transcript

Breaking News And Guest Intro

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Less than 24 hours. We heard that the Alberta government is wanting to redrum of the electoral map. Albertans are concerned, they're confused, and not sure what to expect. Today on the Universal Radio Network, we have the leader of the official opposition of Alberta, Mr. Naheed Nancy, to talk about this further. Welcome, Mr. Nancy. How's today?

SPEAKER_01 0:19

Thanks so much for having me. I feel like that's twice in a week that we've been talking.

SPEAKER_00 0:23

It's a lucky week for us, isn't it? But there's a lot happening. Yeah, it was assembly this week. We've had some interesting news come up, and I know Albertans have a lot of questions.

Why Independent Commissions Matter

What Changed In The Final Maps

SPEAKER_01 0:33

Yeah, so if you don't mind, let me back up a little bit because this this feels like something for political science nerds to talk about, but it's actually incredibly important. So traditionally in Canada, uh, we do not let politicians get involved in drawing electoral maps because what we've seen in the US, particularly for a long time, but particularly with President Trump, is the Republicans tend to draw maps that don't make any sense in order to dilute the votes of their opponents and increase their own vote share. And so in Canada, we typically don't do that. We let independent commissions develop these maps. And so we did that in Alberta. Uh, and there has been an independent commission that has been working for the last year on developing maps. They presented their report about a month ago, but something very strange happened, which is they had presented an interim report in the fall, which was fine. I didn't love all of it, but it was fair. It was fine. For your listeners in Southeast Edmonton, there's a new riding being created out of Edmonton Ellersley and Edmonton Meadows because the population has grown so much. And now, anyway, it's fine. Uh, there's a new riding in Southeast Edmonton, for example, called Edmonton Beaumont, which is the very southeast corner of Edmonton and Beaumont. I don't love that. I would prefer to stay in Edmonton, but it's fine. But the point is it's fair and it's independent. But they had a unanimous report in the fall. They did a round of public consultations in January. Thousands of Albertans gave their opinions. And the final report is very similar to the interim report, just a few small changes. But the UCP nominated members of that committee who had voted for the interim report suddenly put out a completely different report. And this completely different report looked like a Trump-style American-style thing. Calgary is unrecognizable, it reaches way out into rural areas. Red Deer and Lethbridge no longer exist. There's just big rural ridings that each have a little bit of red deer and a little bit of Lethbridge in them. It's pretty shocking that they put this forward. And the majority of the commission rightly said that's illegal, it's probably unconstitutional, don't do that. But the UCP, instead of doing what every other government has ever done, which is just put the majority report before the legislature, you take the good, you take the bad, and you vote for it, threw it in the garbage yesterday. And they basically said, we don't like it, and we're going to set up a new panel, which is really which will report to a it will be appointed by a UCP majority committee. It will report to that committee, not to the legislature. It will not have any public hearings or public consultation, and it will draw its own maps. Now let me tell you, people listening to this radio network largely came to this country knowing that there would be struggles and there would be challenges, but you didn't have to worry about elections not being fair. You know, that's one thing that we don't do in Canada, and your voice is going to be heard. So people have every right to be quite upset about this. Um, because this is a political party using the fact that it's in government to sustain its own political power. And I know that sounds very esoteric, but it is a big problem. So if you live in Northeast Calgary, for example, as I do, your vote will be combined with the vote of people in Airdrie or Chestermere who may not share the same concerns as you, may come from different backgrounds as you do, and there is no community of interest there where you can be certain that you're sharing a vote with your neighbors who feel the same way about your local issues.

New Panel Without Public Hearings

SPEAKER_00 4:22

Yes, Mr. Nancy, thank you for the background information. I think it's very important for listeners to understand exactly what it is. Like I said, there's been a lot of confusion, a lot of questions. We were chatting about this on air yesterday, and we got a lot of texts asking what this actually means for Albertans, for the common people, for the citizens, and what the how this can potentially impact them. So I know we are talking about how the Alberta government is saying they want to revisit the electoral map. I know you have mentioned exactly how concerning this is. So, what do you feel is at stake here for Albertans if this does get pushed through?

Gerrymandering In Slow Motion Explained

SPEAKER_01 4:56

Yeah, so let's be very clear, because I know it's confusing. So sorry, I'm doing a lot more explaining than I normally would do, but I really need people to understand what's going on here. They didn't adopt the terrible map. Basically, they were going to. That was their plan. You could tell it was their plan. They're very obvious about their strategies. But we raised a big stink, and more important, Albertans raised a big stink. I may have said in question period, we'll see you in court at the Supreme Court if you try that. So they were scared off. So instead of adopting the crazy map, what they've done is they've adopted a crazy process which will allow them to adopt the crazy map. So it's basically the word is gerrymandering. That's what the word you use uh to describe political parties doing this. And I call this gerrymandering in slow motion. And so what's at stake? It means that the UCP would consolidate its hold on power. It means that it would be much harder for anyone other than them to win an election, even if you got more votes than them. And so for the for the regular person, you should be really concerned about this because it means that they're what they're trying to do is they're diluting the vote of urban people, they're diluting the vote of racialized people, but they're also insulting rural people by taking them for granted. Because they basically say if you lump in Northeast Calgary with all the rural areas around in Rocky View County, those people are going to vote conservative no matter what. So they will overwhelm the people in the city who might be voting New Democrat. And I think that's insulting because it says to the rural people that, you know, we're just using you in order to fulfill our powers. And of course, it's saying to the urban people, we want your vote to matter less. In a cost of living crisis, in a in a situation where people are worried about their families and health care and education, it might be hard to get worked up about democracy. But none of the rest of it happens if you don't have a democratic government. And you know, many of our families have come from countries where we know what happens when governments are only supposedly democratic or not democratic at all. And to me, this is fundamental. This is part of the Canadian dream. It's part of why we're in this country, and we really have to fight this.

SPEAKER_00 7:14

You mentioned gerrymandering. We heard that yesterday during your press conference as well. And thank you for explaining that further. I know there's uh again, there's probably questions about what that terminology means. So that being said, do you believe that this is actually an illegal process or do you feel like it's something you disagree with politically?

Legal Risks And Court Battles

SPEAKER_01 7:31

You know, it's interesting because since they they did this at uh after midnight on Wednesday night and starting on Thursday morning, my phone was blowing up with judges and lawyers and constitutional people from across the country who were saying, we think this is illegal. And certainly the map that they did ended up not um adopting, the one they that they clearly wanted to adopt, even the chair of the commission who was appointed by the UCP said that that map is probably illegal and probably unconstitutional. And as I pointed out, you know, the the government doesn't much care about the constitution. They always use the notwithstanding clause, but the notwithstanding clause does not apply to electoral rights, they can't use it. So if it's unconstitutional, it cannot be the map, it cannot be the law. And unlike in the United States, the Supreme Court has been very clear on ruling that you cannot have gerrymandered maps. In the United States, it's allowed. It's not allowed in Canada. And but the thing is that's gonna take time and money. So instead of the government doing the right thing, it means that citizens are gonna have to spend a ton of money taking this probably all the way to the Supreme Court, um, which will take forever. And that also plays into the government's hands because it means the next election will be fought on the old map while the new map is tied up in court. It's a huge waste of time, it's a huge waste of money. I'd rather be spent I'd rather just adopt the Independent Commission's report, which cost taxpayers$1.5 million, by the way. I would rather just adopt that and then get on to talking about healthcare and education and the cost of living.

SPEAKER_00 9:08

Right. Like you said, those are also very key issues that Albertans have been asking questions about. We're wondering, there's a lot of new announcements that are happening in those ministries as well. And we are also saying, though, that with this um electoral map possibility, there is supporters. There are people that are saying that this is going to balance the urban and rural voices. And I know we touched this, you just briefly described to us of how this can impact the rural vote and how it can be unfair to those living in rural communities as well. But how do you feel the current system is actually working on this? Do you think it is fair currently for the urban and rural vote system?

Urban Rural Balance And Riding Math

SPEAKER_01 9:44

So it's hard in Alberta because our population is concentrated, but we have a very large landmass. So some of those rural ridings are just huge, you know, six, seven hours from one end to the other versus where I live, where I represent Edmonton Strathcona, you know, 20 minutes one end to the other, right? Um, but we have way more people than they have in these massive urban ones. So it's a bit of a game of math. You have to make sure that each riding is within a certain percentage of the average. And even in the majority map, there are three, I think three rural ridings that actually fall far below the population average, which means those people's votes are worth much more than the vote of a person in the city. Um, but you know, you have to make some exceptions for these giant, giant ridings that are very sparsely populated. So I think that the commission did an okay job of balancing that. The really ironic thing about this is that when the UCP set up the commission a year and a half ago or two years ago, they said, they told the commission you can own right now, there are 87 ridings in the province. And they said to the commission you can only have 89 ridings, even though the province's population had grown so much. The reason they did that is because if they added more ridings, they would be added in Calgary and Edmonton because that's where the population growth is. So now they're saying exactly the opposite. Well, we need more ridings, but they have to be rural. But the math doesn't play out. You know, those new ridings, this may be, this they may have ended up messing themselves up a little bit because if they add new ridings, those ridings by math should actually be in the cities. They should be in Northeast Calgary and South Edmonton. So we'll have to see how the game plays, but it's very clear that they are not interested in effective representation. They're just interested in their own power.

SPEAKER_00 11:40

Historically, for everyone who's tuned in, these maps and the final process is usually done through the commission, not the government. And that is why there is a lot of uncertainty. There's a lot of gray areas. This is not something Albertans are familiar with that we are seeing the government step into this process. Now, I'm understanding from you, Mr. Nancy, that you are agreeing that it should be the commission alone that makes these decisions.

SPEAKER_01 12:01

Yeah, I mean, the the the legislature has to pass it eventually, but that should be more or less the rubber stamp. That was the system that we went through in Calgary when I was mayor there. In fact, in Calgary, there was a point where the council actually felt that there was an error in the map, that they had made a mistake in one of their ridings, but they didn't try to fix it on the floor of council. We sent it back to independent experts to say, please fix this error and then adopt the new map, which is what they ended up doing. So, you know, there is a role for politicians, but it's certainly not. As I said yesterday, politicians shouldn't choose their voters, voters should choose their politicians. And that's what's very troubling about this. You know, this this UCP government under Danielle Smith has floated democratic norms, they've taken away people's rights, um, they've acted in a very imperial way, as though all the power is with them, which is ironic because the premier started her political career. Her very first speech in the legislature was about how individual rights can never be taken away by a government. And yet she's used the notwithstanding clause four times. So this is really just about power. It's kind of shameful, to be honest. And we have to figure out how to address it. And the best way to address it is to frankly embarrass the province, embarrass the government, and say, guys, we can see what you're doing. It's very obvious. We're not stupid, don't lie to us, and don't do that. And hopefully we can get a better outcome, or else we're going to be tied up in court for years.

SPEAKER_00 13:36

Yeah, no, there's a role that the opposition can play, there's a role that potentially the courts can play, the legislation. Is there anything in this process where like Albertans can play a role if they disagree with this outcome?

Voters Should Choose Politicians

SPEAKER_01 13:48

There absolutely is, and I'm really glad you asked that question. This is my job, right? This is what I do every day. Um, but what really makes the needle move is regular citizens. So everyone listening, I'm going to encourage you to call your MLA. Tell them that this is upsetting to you, or send them a quick email. Call the premier's office and say this is upsetting, or send the premier a quick email. Write a letter to the editor of your newspaper. Write letters in uh, you know, second language Punjabi and Hindi language newspapers so that people really know about it. You know, um, what's really interesting about the world we have right now is often as racialized people living in certain neighborhoods in in Alberta, we feel like we're kind of on the sidelines of politics. But right now, we really have the ability to use our voices to make change. You know, the same with separatism, and we've talked a little bit about separatism in the past, because that's a referendum across the whole province. That's what's the voice of racialized people could really make a difference. I'm encouraging everyone on that front to sign up at foralberta4canada.ca and we can help you think about how to talk to your neighbors about these issues and how to get more engaged.

SPEAKER_00 15:01

Thank you, Mr. Natchez. That's actually very good insight because we had those questions come in the text line of is there any way I can support? Is there any way I can voice my opinion? So knowing that there are ways, reach out to your MLA, reach out to the premier's office. As we say, we live in a democratic society. You have rights. So please practice those if you are feeling about this in a certain way.

SPEAKER_01 15:22

And you know what? I'll just interrupt you for one sec to tell you that I love that people are asking you that. I actually call that the most Canadian of all questions. How can I help? And so I really do encourage people to sign up at foralbertaforcanada.ca. That's about separatism, but it'll give you a lot of the same tools in terms of what you can do. And I'm gonna be very blunt with you. If we have to do court challenges, if we have to do all this work, it's gonna take money and it's gonna take volunteers. So if you're in a position where you can volunteer your time or you can donate money, these are also going to be, and I'm not asking you for money today, but these are also going to be things that we're gonna need help with going forward.

SPEAKER_00 15:59

Absolutely. You know, Mr. Nancy, one other question I had is if the final map happened to be in favor of the party, NDP, if it favored your party, would your opinion be different about this?

How Albertans Can Push Back

SPEAKER_01 16:10

No, so in 2017, when the NDP were in power, they did a similar independent boundaries commission. You're supposed to do it every 10 years or so. And they really didn't like the results. So are the two most important cabinet ministers in Calgary, their writings got merged, for example. We had an NDP MLA in Medicine Hat, and the Medicine Hat riding got taken away. So ultimately, even the Independent Boundaries Commission report is pretty fair. Like it doesn't give, it doesn't make us win an election, but we've got to be fair about it. The challenge here is that the government has tainted the process so badly. You know, if this were Jim Prentice or Ed Stelmack's government saying, you know, we think we made a mistake, we should have added two more, uh, two more seats. Let's reappoint the same independent boundary commission who've already listened to all the public hearings and ask them to see what it would look like with two more seats. I would have a little more faith in the process. But because the government, like the funniest part of this little scandal, is that these weird maps in the minority report, regular citizens, quote unquote regular citizens, were presenting them at the to the commission, but they have a government of Alberta document identifier on them. So the government had actually created these maps using taxpayer money and was pretending that they were an independent part of the process. It was pretty shocking. Uh pretty, pretty, uh, pretty uh downscale corruption, if I can say it that way. And so the fact that they've done that already doesn't fill me with faith that this will be a fair process. They made a bunch of changes. There's no independent commission, there's an advisory panel only. They've changed who can be appointed to the panel. They've explicitly said the panel should not have any public hearings or public consultations. They put an impossibly short timeline on when this needs to be done by, and by the way, Elections Alberta says that if they follow that timeline, they won't have enough time to run the election on the new map. So the election might even get delayed, maybe. So all of this just doesn't fill me with confidence that they're going to be fair. So even if the maps end up by some miracle supporting us, it's going to be hard for us to say that was arrived at through a fair process.

SPEAKER_00 18:40

Right. Now, at the end of the day, I think you have made it very clear why the average Albertan should care about how these lines are drawn. Is there anything else you want to share with everyone who's tuned in? Or we've talked about how they can support it. But even generally, is there something that we should really be concerned about, or as this is developing, something to look out for in the news?

Would A Favourable Map Change Minds

The Little Bird And The Fire

SPEAKER_01 18:59

I mean, look, times feel really heavy right now. You know, as we're recording this, the Strait of Hormoons is open, so maybe the price of gas will go down. But I filled up gas yesterday, and even I was like, oh my God, in my little car. Price of groceries are up. Um, people are worried that healthcare and education are not there for them. And it's and it's easy to feel really discouraged. But here's the thing our government wants you to be discouraged. That's their entire philosophy. You know, keep people angry, keep people upset, try to find someone to blame, whether it's Ottawa or immigrants. We can't fall for that. I can't remember if I told you this on Wasaki, but I'm gonna tell it again. I'm gonna tell you a little story. My MLA Grindher Brahr, the MLA for Calgary Northeast, is one of the best speakers in politics today. And it's funny because you know he's got a bit of an accent, so a lot of people when he starts talking will be like, oh, what does that guy have to say? But he's a brilliant orator. One of his speeches on uh Facebook has had 10 million views. And he gave another speech recently, which I think deserves a hundred million views, and I'm gonna summarize it right now. And this is my message for people. The story is that a forest caught fire. Uh and as the forest was being destroyed and the animals couldn't escape, the only people who could the only ones who could escape were the birds, they could fly away. So the birds were flying away, all except for one little bird. And that bird flew to the nearby river, filled his beak with water, and came back and spit the water at the fire. And the other bird said, What are you doing? You're not going to put the fire out. And he said, Uh when the history of this forest is written, I want my name to be written down as someone who tried to put out the fire, not someone who started it. So even in these tough times where it's easy to be angry and divided, when the history of this place is written, we have the opportunity to have our names put down as people who put out the fire, who understood that we get to live here. We get to live in one of the greatest places on earth where we can worship as we wish, we can eat as we wish, we can live as we wish, but we can also be purposeful and proud in building that society for everyone else. And this is an opportunity where we are called to it. The fight against separatism, the fight against cheating and stealing and rigging the election that the government is trying to do. These are the fights of our lives, but they are worth it because we are building a better community for our neighbors, for our kids and our grandkids. And that's what I'm excited about. If there's ever an opportunity for Seva, this is it.

SPEAKER_00 21:34

Thank you, Mr. Nancy. I really appreciate you taking out time. Like I said, there's been a lot of questions, there's a lot of uncertainty. And as you said, times are heavy, and people are wondering how this can potentially impact us as Albertans. So I appreciate this. I appreciate you giving us so much background and also making even me understand why I should be concerned even further about this.

SPEAKER_01 21:54

Well, thank you. The work you're doing is really important in getting the information out, and I'm really grateful that you've given.

SPEAKER_00 22:01

Thank you.