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The RTO Show "Let's talk Rent to Own"
Ever wondered how a $8.5 billion industry keeps millions of Americans lounging in style? Step into "The RTO Show Podcast" – where the mysterious world of Rent to Own furniture finally spills its secrets! Your host Pete Shau isn't just any industry veteran – he's spent 20 years in the trenches, collecting the kind of stories that'll make you laugh, gasp, and maybe even rethink everything you knew about that couch you're sitting on.
From wild customer tales to industry shake-ups that'll knock your rented socks off, Pete brings the seemingly mundane world of furniture financing to vibrant life. Warning: This isn't your typical business podcast – expect real talk, unexpected laughs, and "aha!" moments that'll have you looking at every lease agreement in a whole new light.
Whether you're an RTO pro who knows your depreciation schedules by heart, or you're just curious about how that fancy sectional ended up in your living room, Pete's got the inside scoop you never knew you needed. Tune in and discover why the furniture business is anything but boring!
The RTO Show "Let's talk Rent to Own"
RTO World 2025 Recorded Live from Omaha!
Step into the heart of the rent-to-own industry as we broadcast live from RTO World 2025, surrounded by the energy and innovation of the biggest gathering in the sector. This episode brings together key industry leaders to discuss the transformative forces reshaping how rent-to-own businesses operate, advocate, and market themselves.
Michael Wall, Senior Director of Corporate Affairs at Aaron's, shares how their recent acquisition by IQ Ventures has freed the company to focus on long-term growth rather than quarterly earnings. He explains how Aaron's modernized store design creates a more dignified shopping experience while highlighting the critical importance of industry advocacy at both federal and state levels.
The conversation takes a serious turn as Jeff Smith, President of the New York Rental Dealers Association, details the legislative battle unfolding in Albany. Proposed legislation threatens to fundamentally mischaracterize the RTO transaction by imposing APR caps on lease agreements. This fight exemplifies why industry advocacy matters – RTO provides essential access to household necessities for consumers with limited options, and misguided regulation could eliminate this vital service.
Marketing expert Andrew Hajduk delivers perhaps the most surprising insights, revealing how consumer "digital fatigue" is driving successful RTO operators back to community-based marketing strategies. While everyone rushes toward AI and digital solutions, hyperlocal approaches like door hangers, community involvement, and chamber of commerce participation are showing remarkable results. His observation that print marketing has a "slower decay rate" than digital ads challenges conventional wisdom about where marketing dollars should flow.
The thread connecting these diverse topics is adaptation – how an industry with deep roots is evolving to meet changing consumer needs while fighting misconceptions about its services. From corporate restructuring to legislative battles and marketing innovation, this episode captures how rent-to-own is positioning itself for future growth while staying true to its mission of providing flexible options for consumers.
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Hello and welcome to the RTO show. I'm your host, pete Chow. Listen for anybody who doesn't know what's going on right here. We are actually live at RTO World 2025. I'm with the award winner over here, right? The award winner, charles Smitherman, ceo, phd. He's got more backstory than anybody I know, right. I just want to know I wanted to know, charles, before we get started how come we don't call you doctor? I feel like I'm doing you a disservice by not calling him doctor.
Speaker 2:Well, so that's a funny story, because my brother actually is a doctor. He's a real doctor. I'm the guy that if there's an emergency on an airplane, you do not and you say is there a doctor on board? You do not want to call me. We call physicists doctors, and you know what? It was one of those things. Once I got it, I never wanted to use it.
Speaker 1:He's like you know what, if I can't object, it doesn't matter. So today, listen, we have a great show for everybody here. There's live going on all behind us. You're not going to see that in this video, but there is everything going on out there. Right now we have one of our first interviewees here, michael Waldman. Introduce him in a second, but first we've got to talk about the dunk contest, and I say that loosely because it's actually a water dunk contest. So how does April? Why does that matter to April? What are we doing with that and what does it?
Speaker 2:help. Well, so you know, last year we subjected our entire association to our karaoke, so we had to find out a better way that would be less damaging for them. You know, we're looking for ways to raise money for the APRO Charitable Foundation, particularly the scholarship fund, and so we're looking for a new way to do it. So this year we're going to be over at the ballpark and we tried to make it as much of a baseball theme, and so you add one and one together and we get a dunk.
Speaker 1:What more baseball themed than dunking somebody in the tank? Right, and it's for a good cause, everybody. Just so that you're aware right now, if you donate to the APRO Disaster Relief Fund, this guy, along with like five others, are going to go in the water if we hit $10,000. So that means you've got to do it and that guy over there You've got to make sure that they get dunked. So right now, the participants are Mike Kays, Mike Tissett, Dan Fisher, Kevin Silvers and, our favorite, Charles.
Speaker 2:Smitherman is in there, all right.
Speaker 1:So throws are available for donations Right now. I just wanted to talk to about the sponsors of the RTO show. So, apro, bring the premier sponsor. Thank you for being here. I got Jeff way over there. He's kind of like getting intent on getting ready to go. But you know, apro does a great job in helping us get through to the real part of what's going on, and that's everybody here making sure that they understand not only how to do better, how to be better and how to get better One way or another, whether it's community, whether it's being in your showroom, whether it's talking to some of the legends that we have walking around. It is absolutely amazing to do that. Also, we've got Wow Brands, now a official platinum sponsor, gerard Norman Marketing. I got honorary sponsors JLR America. Hopefully we can get Aaron's in there sometime.
Speaker 4:I don't know, one of these days We'll see how this goes.
Speaker 1:So we're going to talk about our guests really, really quick. So the first guest that I have today is Michael Wall. He's going to introduce himself. He's from Aaron's. I got Andrew Hajdu up next. He's talking about some marketing, what's going on in the future, what's happening with us and how we can kind of pull from what's going on outside of the rent-to-own source to make what we're doing better yeah, which I'm really looking forward to that. And then we've got Jeff Smith, who's going to tell us all about the legal situation up in New York. He's going to talk to us about hometown rentals. He's going to talk to us about being president of the NYRDA. We've got a lot to talk about. So we're going to start with Michael Wall. How you doing, mike. Good Pete, thanks for having me on the show, all right, so a little bit that we wanted to know. Let's talk about you. What's your current role in Aarons and how did you get there?
Speaker 4:Sure, so, pete. I'm the Senior Director of Corporate Affairs at Aarons. That means my team and I oversee our government relations, corporate communications and our corporate meetings and events, so basically the external affairs, if you will, for the company.
Speaker 1:So just to make sure, when you go out you're the face.
Speaker 4:You got it.
Speaker 1:So it's like errands, and then they have the thing, and then they have Michael Wall's face next to it. Is that like the trademark symbol? It's pretty close. And the dog. Don't forget the dog.
Speaker 2:What's that?
Speaker 4:And the dog. Don't forget the dog. Oh yes, of course, oh yes of course, lucky Dog is definitely the mascot of the company.
Speaker 1:Totally understandable. So you know, as we were talking, there was a couple of things that we wanted to kind of go over, because there's been a lot of good change going on, aaron, I mean there's been that you know. Now that you're the face, I mean you get to really kind of embody what's going on and say we've made some big changes, we've done that. Did you want to talk about that, or should I shoot into that?
Speaker 4:Yeah, sure. So I mean I think it's well known now, especially in our space here as we sit here live at the show. You know we were acquired by IQ Ventures in October of 2024. And really that acquisition has given the company and our management team the freedom to focus on the things that really drive the business, gives them an opportunity to look at investments three to five years down the road versus looking at the next quarter right, and being able to really fuel growth in the company. It's been exciting.
Speaker 1:Is there a real big difference between shareholders and just being independently owned. Does it make it so? In other words, it's like, does it make the transition to making decisions a little bit easier, a little bit faster, Like you said, looking three to five years down the road and going. That's where we want to be, that's the focus we want to have.
Speaker 4:So that's a little above my pay grade at the company, thank goodness. But we've got a great group of folks who are running the company and our C-suite. We've got a fantastic board and everyone is energized and excited about growing Aaron's and really getting out there and spending time with our customers, spending time with our franchisees, our employees, looking for ways where we can in fact change the way we think, act and win in the market.
Speaker 2:And speaking of board, michael is one of our newest board members on the APRO board, so we're excited to bring Michael on board and really continue Aaron's presence, because they bring so much to the association.
Speaker 1:We're actually on the podcast now. Yes, gopal just stopped by.
Speaker 2:Gopal Reddy, one of our great franchisees at Aaron's.
Speaker 1:Why don't you come in the camera and say, hello, come on, sit down.
Speaker 4:Gopal, who just won the Heritage Award.
Speaker 1:So after years of slaving away at this industry and doing everything you can to put back. Somebody said, hey, we better recognize this guy, we better give him a darn award and let him know we love him. We appreciate everything that you've done. In case they haven't said it, we do appreciate it, yeah.
Speaker 2:Well deserved. You go, Paul.
Speaker 1:So now we got all kinds of attendees and board people up here and everything. So, with what happened, we make that transition. There was also something else that happened. Aaron's was looking at making this. I don't want to say an ai model, but there was this model where it was very streamlined smaller, smaller, uh, square footage, but yet you have the ability to engage your customers electronically through online um, making it very quick. How was that transit Like? What was the purpose behind that?
Speaker 4:Yeah, so I think you're speaking more to the Gen Next model. Yes, so some of those stores were larger in footprint, but mostly what I would say is the goal there was more modern shopping experience, more so brighter stores, uh, cleaner footprints, like just real modern integrated technology, so that it would make the shopping experience, the retail experience, smoother and more engaging for the customer so and maybe I'm sorry if I said that wrong, because I did say smaller, but like what was different about those showrooms in a traditional show?
Speaker 1:so they're, they're big and bright, which which is great, but was there something specifically different that you can say that model is not the same model that we've been following.
Speaker 4:Well, I'll just say that our Gen X model, first of all, was received very well by customers and it's really been an overwhelming positive feedback. Now, part of what we do at Aaron's and I think everyone here does this is everything is constantly evolving and so what we are doing right now in that same space. So, you're not wrong, because we are looking at smaller footprints, we are looking at lighter capital expenditures, right. So how can we make that customer experience better? Right? So how can we make that customer experience better? How can we lean in there and also make it attractive for franchisees, right, so more attractive from the financial perspective, so that we can continue to expand and grow in a more flexible, efficient way.
Speaker 1:Nobody really comes into a franchise to lose money, right. I mean everybody's like how can you make me some money? Right, and I'll tell you, pete.
Speaker 2:I've had the chance to tour a couple of those stores, those Gen X stores. They are incredible, they're nice, they've got a great footprint, it feels like you're in a rooms to go type of location. And just some great technology too, with all the with the touchpads and the. That's right's right.
Speaker 4:Yeah, online application process and really I'll just say this too the goal is to make it a more dignified shopping experience. We want those consumers to come in, feel at home, feel like there's a lot of natural light and modern. Matt, you're welcome to come do this You're welcome to come do this man.
Speaker 1:I got a face for radio. Come on, help me out. Sit in with this guy, give him a help. I'm sorry go ahead.
Speaker 4:No, you're good, I couldn't pass Matt up.
Speaker 1:He just had this face when he was walking by.
Speaker 4:You're good. You're good, but my role, that's a lot of our business management. That's what they focus on every day and that's great, because I need them to focus on that every day. What I focus on for the company is our advocacy, making sure that we're out there at the federal level and the state level.
Speaker 1:I'm so glad you said that, because that's actually something Charles is super passionate about. I saw it on stage earlier, charles, I'm not going to say anything, but I did see that passion come out of Charles and it does. So how do you feel about the way Michael's brought his form of advocacy with Aaron's to what we do in DC?
Speaker 2:Well, I'll personally say this I've learned a lot from Michael. I mean, michael's a pro at this, he's experienced with it. He's a great asset for Aaron's, he's going to be a great asset for our board and what he knows and all that knowledge he brings to me or brings to the APRO board. Michael and I have spent some time together in meetings and it's always fun to watch him operate. I'm taking notes myself on how to improve and how to share, but Michael's a pro and we're lucky to have him.
Speaker 2:Aaron's just lucky to have him.
Speaker 1:I'm going to tell you right now man, you're kind of laid back. You guys got to understand. He's got a great smile, he's all loose and he's sitting here at the podcast. He's like I got to make sure that I just deliver my lines. But no, listen, what you do, not only for Aaron's, but what you do as an advocate for this industry, being the face that you are putting the attention that you do on it, we appreciate that.
Speaker 1:He appreciates that he might not be able to give you a big old hug from the other side of the table but I know he wants to, but like we need that you know and it's not that anybody else out there is not big enough.
Speaker 1:But when you talk about the big three, it's always Rack, aarons and Buddies, and to have them involved and included in this on a regular basis means a lot, because that's a lot of representation for us, that's a lot of representation for APRO. You know, to sit there and say this is not just something we do every once in a while or we stop by once a year. You're there all the time, which is something I want to talk about, because you got to go back soon, oh yes.
Speaker 4:Well, it's August recess. I will be headed back to DC in September for a trip there. You know, one thing I'll just share is it's so important to be involved and plugged into a trade organization, an association like APRO, and Aaron's has always been here and will always be here, because we know speaking with a collective voice is much more powerful than doing it on our own. But it's important. We need that. We need the relationships at the federal level Absolutely, and we need them at the state and local level. It doesn't need to stop just in DC, because we have to remember we are creatures of state legislatures.
Speaker 4:There are 47 state statutes out there, right, there are 47 states that have RTO specific statutes that govern our business, and it's important that we're there and we're engaged and we're listening and following the policy conversations and the developments, because if we are not, it will be noticed, and we saw that very clearly this year and last year in New York.
Speaker 4:So we've had to go up there and make sure we can educate about what is the RTO transaction. How do we afford consumers flexibility without creating debt obligation, without you know creating debt obligation? What are ways in which we help them along during the lease process and the journey right so that, like when they find themselves in a hardship, we're able to be there to help them through it right With a payment, vacation or whatnot. That's important to tell that story because, let's face it, nothing's getting cheaper these days and so as those essential goods climb in cost, we have to remember that it's our purpose to be there to tell the story. Make sure that our lawmakers and our staffers up there understand that and hear it from us and give that story some air, give it some life, make sure they understand the reality and the people behind it.
Speaker 1:Now we know why he's the face right. Exactly there you go. You do a great job at that. You do a great job, Charles, if we're having some. First off, are you guys both lawyers?
Speaker 4:Yes, but I don't play one for the company I'm in between a lot of legal representation here.
Speaker 1:I just want to say that out loud. There's a lot of legality in this.
Speaker 4:Fortunately, I have a great legal staff and a great legal department and I get to pitch a lot of hard questions their way and they help me figure out what we're going to say back to our regulators.
Speaker 1:So let me ask you a question. With the legal background and you being in DC all the time and I love that you're there because I think you have the personality for it but what made them decide that you were the person to represent this part of the company? You know, we got this lawyer and he does a great job. He does a good job at April. He does a good job. You know what. You're the guy.
Speaker 4:Well, that's easy. They hired me for it so they knew what they wanted and I fit the job description, so they hired me for it. But I will say we spend just as much time following state action and state developments as we do federal, and the reason for that is because the pace, the speed at which an idea becomes a law is so quick at the state level and it has sometimes immediate operational impact. I mean, they go from defining the transaction to determining what's in your lease agreement, to what's acceptable disclosure. All of that matters right, and so it's important to stay involved and engaged at the state level as well.
Speaker 1:So, when you go up there. So when you go up there, are you going up there for the New York situation as well?
Speaker 4:Yes, we've all been there, we've all been there, and that's the third time.
Speaker 1:If nobody knows, we've all been there.
Speaker 4:In February in Albany, New York, for a guy who's from Tennessee and lives in Atlanta.
Speaker 1:Shows my dedication to the industry and I've got to go to Albany, New York. So what I'm going to do is the industry and I've got to go to Albany, New York. So what I'm going to do is the next time that I get a ticket, I just want to know who to call. No, I'm just kidding. What I want to say is like-.
Speaker 4:Not me.
Speaker 1:Not the kind of lawyer, pete. But what I will say is we really appreciate that Now, making that transition, we've got Jeff here. He was going to go last, but I think, because we've been talking about the legal situation, I'm going to let you talk about it a little bit more. Who's technically spearheading this whole thing? Is that Jeff?
Speaker 5:No, I wouldn't say.
Speaker 1:Is it you.
Speaker 5:Charles.
Speaker 2:It's very much a collaborative effort. We've been basically lots of strategy calls with all the parties involved.
Speaker 4:Our government relations committee is very much involved in overseeing this, and so it's very much been a collaborative effort that we've been able to share resources, share information that we're all getting from the ground and we're fortunate to have Jeff's involvement, him really revitalizing or really bringing bringing back to life the new york rental dealers association and I would say it underscores the importance of the companies being members of their state rda and paying those dues, because, because we were able to lean in and and have those dues available, jeff was able to go out and find us a good lobbying firm in New York who knows the process, knows the people and is able to steer us all, I think, in a direction that's been very helpful in educating about this industry and what we do for consumers and hopefully dispelling a lot of the misconceptions that are out there.
Speaker 5:Well.
Speaker 1:I'm certainly glad that you're up there for us. How do you feel before we make that switch over? Is there anything that you want to say to Mike before we let him go?
Speaker 2:No, just thanks for being here, thanks for your service, thanks for being on the board and everything you do, and it's been looking forward to continue to do this.
Speaker 4:Thank you, I'm looking forward to it as well, and I will say this because she is my boss, rachel George, who's rolling off the board this year and I am now being elected to it. I have some really big shoes to fill. Rachel's been, I think, a great resource to APRO and has the legal acumen that I do not have, but I am looking forward to continuing to learn from her in my role and will continue to bring that. While she's stepping off the board, she's not stepping away, and so we'll continue to bring everything we've got at Aarons to support APRO and its mission.
Speaker 1:I'm going to say, Rachel, if you're listening or if you're going to listen in the future, we appreciate what you do, we appreciate everything you do. Mike, I appreciate you being here. I appreciate you being here. I appreciate you taking out the time. I know it's not always easy, but being able to stop in for a little bit at least and saying, hi, we do appreciate it. Up next we're going to have Jeff Smith, All right, so next up, Jeff Smith. And I pulled from the crowd Matt because he was trying to get through here and I'm like no, no, no, no, You've got to come in and help Jeff out.
Speaker 1:He deserves that yeah, so to bring us up to speed if you haven't heard his stories before, these gentlemen have both been on the podcast before, kind of representing not only their brand-new business, the Hometown Rentals and Northeast, but, jeff, now is the sitting president of the NYRDA that you actually brought up and resurrected. Now was April a part of that?
Speaker 2:We were as part of like a strategic initiative. We were looking for states that were either inactive, weren't represented, and we reached out to Jeff and Jeff is Jeff. I'll say this about Jeff Jeff is you. You could ask him to do anything. He is going to be there for you. He's reliable, he's willing, he's a great board member. Uh, he's served on our board now for a year just a year, which is crazy because of how much that he's contributed. And, um, this New York situation was was exactly it. Um, uh, he was recognized that today and the New York by winning the Ed Wynn Advocacy Award for all the work that he's done and the association's done up there. I love seeing Jeff on there.
Speaker 1:He looked even nervous on his own video there's nobody in the room, but he's sitting there.
Speaker 1:He's like nervous, he's like everybody's watching this, so we're going to start off with some simple stuff that I think everybody's interested in. Everybody wants to know Sure Right, tariffs is coming, whether it's here or not. You've got these scared people worried about what's going on with the tariffs. So it hasn't hit, but you've got people in fear. So how is that affecting us right now? Have you guys seeing a reduction in some of the things that are going on because of the tariffs, or is tariffs affecting us at all?
Speaker 5:I don't think so, because the 90-day extension that we got yesterday from Trump, there were some vendors that were kind of trying to pre-plan for that, assuming that the tariffs were going to hit and we're forecasting a price increase. But as of yesterday, the price sheets that all came out today, or most of the price sheets that we're seeing, don't have any tariffs on them or any price increases on them. So I think, temporarily at least, we've dodged that, the T word.
Speaker 1:We call it the T word. I like that, okay. So from an APRO standpoint, from a rent-to-own standpoint, is there anybody to talk to to say, hey, you know what, I'm not saying good, bad or indifferent, I'm not here to be an economist, because I'm not. I pretend one on TV, but I'm not and say some things are great, some things are not? Is there a forefront to say maybe the tariffs might not be good for this industry, or do we feel like we can take that hit? Tariffs might not be good for this industry, or do we feel like we can take that hit? We build it into the price model because we take care of people. We do deliveries. You do have, you know, that ability to return when you can't afford it and we'll take it back out to you with a lifetime reinstatement. Is it more that way, or is it more these tariffs are going to? It's going to be hard. Let's figure this out.
Speaker 5:I would say, now more than ever, it makes this transaction even more valuable than it's been in the past. Because of that, if a customer is not ready to commit that extra, or even if they just want to wait it out and see, say, you know, if somebody's paying attention, they see that Trump just did the 90-day pause with China and they say well, you know, I really need this furniture. I'm just going to go rent it for a couple months, you know, then I'm not obligated or I'm not committed to that. And the other side of that is we always pass the savings on to our customers. The other unfortunate side of that coin is we would have to pass any increase on to our customer as well. But it's a double-edged sword, but it works both ways, I guess.
Speaker 1:Talking about a double-edged sword, and I'm going to let you guys talk about this. We've got some legislation in New York that's really starting to kind of linger a lot longer than it should have. Now you guys have what? Two stores in New York and one in Pennsylvania, three in New York, one in Pennsylvania.
Speaker 1:God, you guys are growing. Like every time I turn around it's a new store. So when you're looking at this and you know how this is, because when we're looking at this, everybody the point is not that it's just going to affect New York, which is especially going to hurt you guys, but we're talking about this is something that can affect the New York state and then be carried on to another state, which might then cause a domino effect. We've got certain states that are probably a little bit more liberal in that area. So we're talking about California, we're talking about Illinois. What's going on with that right now?
Speaker 2:What's going on with that right now? Well, fortunately, the session ended back in June and the bills that were both pending in both chambers up there expired effectively or they died on the vine. New York's kind of just an interesting state. I think we learn more every time we go up there and talk to someone about how their process works. But the bills are round and they're not dead yet, and so we're really continuing to press on getting our messaging out, getting the word out, really fixing these misconceptions and these really bad talking points that keep mischaracterizing what we do, mischaracterizing the importance of what we do and how important it is for those consumers that utilize our product and that's growing.
Speaker 2:We provide a good option that exists for a reason and it's going to continue to grow because it is a good option and being able to offer the flexibility that it does, and so we've just got to keep the foot on the gas and providing that messaging making.
Speaker 2:And so we've just got to keep the foot on the gas and providing that messaging, making sure that we're telling and characterizing it the way that it actually is and fighting these misconceptions, because that's really the bottom line of what's happening up there is that the people that don't understand what our business is have confused us with other financial products out there, new products that may or may not need to be looked at, but we're going up there and saying look, we've been regulated since 1986 in this state. You revised or amended our statute in 2009. We're here to work with you, but you don't need to throw us into this big jumbo bill that's got all these different things. It mischaracterizes everything that we do and so it's really just continuing to get that messaging. We're really trying to work on personal things. I think Jeff had someone in his store pretty recently.
Speaker 5:Yeah, we're actually. Senator George Borrella was down because he's got.
Speaker 1:Really, he came to the store Yep.
Speaker 5:That's what I'm talking about. Wait, he came to the store. Yep, that's what I'm talking about. He's obviously got a vested interest. He's got three stores, or all three of our stores are in his district, all along the PA state line, and he knows, if this goes through, we're going to move, you know, two miles, four miles south, matt, you didn't scare him out of the store.
Speaker 1:You didn't scare him out of the store. Get out of here, man. You're not passing that legislation, not in this store. No, I'm just kidding.
Speaker 5:No, he's definitely on our side and he's a business owner as well, so he understands what we're up against. And to Charles' point, we're kind of regrouping and revamping our message to Albany. We're trying to humanize the transaction a little more. I think they look at us as the big bad evil empire. No pun intended for New York State with the Yankees, you didn't throw that in there. Well, no pun intended for New York State with the Yankees, but the Yankees fan too. So that makes it easy for me to make that comparison.
Speaker 1:It's a flaw of all of us. I'm a.
Speaker 5:Yankees fan I'm good. I welcome the evil empire moniker in that situation. But we're just trying to try to everything. Everything we've tried isn't working. So that's why we're trying to humanize the approach this time and show them real world examples. I think Larry Carrico said it best. You know, we don't sell mattresses, we sell a good night's sleep. We don't sell refrigerators, we sell cold milk. And that's kind of the message we're trying to portray to them. And as we get ready to do our third and our fourth trips out there however many it's going to be we're kind of learning that the message we sent the first two times isn't working. So we're kind of pivoting and going to a more human and try to get some customer testimonials and get you know kind of some different messaging out there that hopefully they're a little bit more receptive to.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think I'll add to that. Look, I mean we're sitting out here in the corner of this massive expo hall. I'm looking at Ashley Home Furniture right over there. I'm looking at all these name brand appliances, tvs, everything out there. This is what this industry does. They're buying here, taking it to stores like Jeff and giving people the option of obtaining use of a product, a pathway to ownership, a flexible option that exists. And look, we just need to tell our story. We don't have to make anything up here. I think if we had those guys sitting here seeing what I'm looking at right now, with all these vendors, all these people walking around and what this transaction provides up there, I think there would be a complete re-visioning of what they're trying to do there and understand what we do.
Speaker 1:Matt, you think we can invite them over here to sit down at the podcast. You think they'll sit.
Speaker 5:I would love for them to come sit with us. We could chat for days with this.
Speaker 1:You guys haven't seen Matt. He's kind of like an intimidating kind of big guy and I don't know, if they'd come in and sit, we'd have to introduce you next, we'd have to sit down and then right, pete's.
Speaker 5:Being modest, I'm really 5'9", I'm kidding.
Speaker 1:At heart.
Speaker 5:He's 5'9". One word Charles didn't mention was access. We're providing access to these people. You know our customers, our friends. You know they don't have access to these products otherwise, like Ashley Furniture or you know, lg Sustainable Steel French Store Refrigerator, if we didn't exist. They're looking on Facebook Marketplace and buying a fridge for 100 bucks, hoping it works and trying to find somebody to deliver it to them. So access is another thing that we provide.
Speaker 1:So a couple other things that I wanted to talk about was because we're talking about how important it is what we're doing, accessing the halls of Albany to make it happen. But as Mike Wall said, and we're saying it now, there wasn't an NYRDA, which, for anybody who doesn't know, that's the New York Rental Dealers Association. They were dormant, kind of gone.
Speaker 1:They were, and then Jeff says hey, matt, you got this. I got to go to put on my New York cape and revive that. How did that, where did that come from and how did you? End up being president, not, it's a bad thing, but you were like, hey, I'm here and I'm the only guy here, I'm the president now.
Speaker 5:Kind of happened organically, I think, at LedgeCon. Honestly, I think I went to LedgeCon my first one was 23. I went last year, charles and I kind of talked just offline, just kind of speaking in general terms, and he said there's no New York Rental Dealers Association.
Speaker 5:I said, well, I can try to light that fire back up, there is now, baby, turn the lights back on and he's like it's no big deal, you just need a couple meetings a year. So I'm thinking I'm going to sip through a Dixie cup, and then he calls me six months later and tells me there's a fire there. So the next thing I know I'm I planned on just sitting back and you know, just sipping on a little cup of tea and uh, you know, learning about the, learning about the legislation, more learning about Albany, learning about Washington DC, and then he's the, the software for April flagged a, uh, that bill, uh, I think it was 1573 at the time. I don't know it's changed, but but yeah, so I, uh, I wanted to just help out, however I could.
Speaker 1:And then, uh, you know, luckily Matt's around to kind of do the operations while I'm playing politician or playing whatever you want to call it, matt's holding it down Out in DC and New York this, but can you guys really tell me what is it? What is it that's going to change this transaction to make it very unfavorable for us right now?
Speaker 5:I'll let the lawyer handle that one we're going to refer back to Charles on that.
Speaker 2:By fundamentally mischaracterizing what we do. It attempts to put an APR effectively on a rental transaction A month-to-month non-renewable extendable agreement, a lease that is renewable upon execution of the renewal, or option to the renewal right. Tell me, you're a dealer, you deal this stuff. How do you put an APR?
Speaker 1:on a lease agreement.
Speaker 2:So when we talk about APR, we're talking about the annual percentage rate, an annual percentage rate that's capped at what 18% or 24%, I think is what they're trying to put 16%, I think it was 16% usury rate. Tell me, what does that disclosure look like on your lease?
Speaker 1:agreement. It doesn't look like anything. There is nothing possible On a percentage rate like that. We wouldn't be able to offer half the services that we give people, to give them the opportunity to own some of the fine things that are out here right now. I mean the free delivery out the window, being able to re-deliver it to you out the window. Service would be nonexistent, like, if it breaks, sorry, it's just yours, but and correct me if I'm wrong if we go to that type of transaction, then the customer cannot return it. Is that correct?
Speaker 2:See, that's the thing. That's a great question and this is something that cannot be answered by the group that's pushing this and by the people that don't really understand what's in the bill up there. You can't, you can't do a disclosure that says it's 18% APR and here's how that APR breaks down per payment. And we don't know if you're going to renew in two weeks, in a month, if you're still going to want this item in six months. So, yeah, it totally undermines and redoes this entire product that is utilized heavily in that state, because it provides an option. It provides an option to acquire all this stuff that state, because it provides an option. It provides an option to acquire all the stuff that's in this room right now. So, yeah, I don't know, and the people that are pushing this don't know either, and that's really kind of the messaging we're trying to communicate to them. It's like, okay, what you're doing does not make. It doesn't make sense on one level, but it doesn't make sense on actual, practical, how it's going to work level.
Speaker 1:Well, just anybody in New York is listening. We don't like this. It's terrible and for everybody who's working in New York State that makes a living doing this by helping the people in that state, you're going to put a lot of people out of business.
Speaker 5:A lot of good people out of business 200 brick and mortar.
Speaker 1:And then I'm going to send Matt to your house, so that is not a threat. I'm not saying that but I don't know where you live. But if I did, no. So, guys, I really appreciate you being here, matt. I love that you stuck around and helped him out a little bit. I really do, mr Andrew. Hi Drew, what's going on, pete? And?
Speaker 3:Charles. Hey, andrew, we're good man. How are you? I'm great. Is Charles here to keep us in line?
Speaker 2:Well, you know I gave you the baseball bat earlier so maybe I should go get that.
Speaker 1:So you know, coming out of the legal thing, we've kind of talked about the advocacy. We talked about what's going on with Mike Walls and Aaron's. We talked about what's going on in the New York Rent-A-Dealer Association. Let's talk about something different.
Speaker 4:Let's do it. Let's get out of the legality of all this.
Speaker 1:Let's put a little light on here.
Speaker 2:Let's do it.
Speaker 1:Andrew is the guy. So in case anybody doesn't know this and I can't imagine anybody not knowing this but Andrew owns Vox Populi, which I've always loved the name. I always thought that was a unique way to do it. Peachtree Corners has forever changed. Daniel over there is watching his son, but there's so much that you've done in the last year, kind of reaching outside the halls of Rent to Own and taking a look at what else is out there and how that affects our marketing, what we do going forward, a little bit of how do we grow out of the shell that we've kind of put ourselves in, because that's always a hard thing to do. We get in our shells, we start knocking up against the walls and now we've got to kind of make something different of that and I think you've kind of really come across it very well.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So it's kind of cool, and one of the things that we've really started is making sure that we're getting out there and getting into other areas, but also learning and taking away as much as we can for many of these guys. And one of the things that we've seen out there more and more and more and we were at a show it's probably one of the highest end shows in the franchise community. It's done by IFA, so you get credits for it and everything, but it's called FCXE, which is Franchise Customer Experience Conference. They talked about it there. We're seeing it more and more.
Speaker 3:But this whole idea of omnipresence through canvassing and if you look at the model, what a lot of guys are doing is there's a whole lot of digital fatigue out there. That is a big phrase, digital fatigue, whether it's Facebook, tiktok, any of that stuff. But the guys that are out in people's homes, in people's communities, they are leveraging that right. So, whether it's a home services company, like a roofer, they're out there with door hangers, marketing. They're marketing in that area. They're getting way more involved locally.
Speaker 3:I've heard more talk about chamber of commerce events, but everybody's really focused. So so, for example, right, pete, I know you live in Tampa. If I'm working in Tampa, I am marketing in your neighborhood. I am marketing in that area. I'm not marketing in Orlando, I'm not marketing out to plant city and some of these other areas. I'm staying super hyper-focused in that area to make sure and that's really the big thing that we're seeing more and more and more is a pullback from. You know they're still spending in other areas, but really the focus is, you know, 10 years ago we called it guerrilla marketing. The 2025 word is canvassing, okay.
Speaker 1:So help me out here, because I've gone to I don't know how many educational sessions we just had. You know, if you guys come to April 2025, their educational sessions are four at a time. We do three sets of three or four.
Speaker 4:I think we've got 12 right now.
Speaker 2:It really depends.
Speaker 1:And they use different terms. This is something different, and I like hearing the different sides of things, because now all I've heard is the two initials that are taking over everything by storm, and that's A and I, and it's everywhere Now, daniel and I have talked about it. I've had another group on there, atlog has been on it, but you're saying that there's a part that is having actual digital fatigue, so it's not just getting smarter, but the advertising part of it, if you get away from that a little bit, is going back to more grassroots.
Speaker 3:There's a big part of it. Well, it lets you hyper focus in your community, right, because you're paying for Google clicks. That may or may not be a good customer, you don't know if you're necessarily getting that, but what I do know is, if I deliver a refrigerator to Pete Chow at 123 Main Street, tampa, florida, that everybody around you is a potential customer. So I know that those are my customers out there. I know that I can become important in the community and leverage that. It was great because at the FCXC, ivy Kids Schools, which is based out of Texas, but they do those early education centers, they do a whole class on how to work with the chamber of commerce in your community. So it really is back to that local. It doesn't mean digital is going away, it doesn't mean any of that, but there is fatigue there and there's a big part of digital detox that's going on right now too. A lot of people are unplugging right or left just because there's so much freaking noise out there.
Speaker 1:So is this kind of tailored more towards an older clientele, because I know the younger people, I think they're going there a little bit more. Is this an older clientele? Or a middle age, probably 30 plus, right at probably the last level of millennials going higher that are just getting tired of this?
Speaker 3:I think a lot of people are getting tired of it. But again, you know, one of the things that we've seen and I've got some stats on it at the booth is the other thing that you have with some of the in-home marketing. Right, and again, this doesn't always work for everybody, but we do get in our customers' homes, just like a roofer, just like an outdoor lighting guy, just like a painter. So we have that same opportunity to market. Look at how they market, heck. Look at how a politician markets. Right, they're going around, they're door knocking, they're shaking hands and they're working on getting those votes. We need to market the same way.
Speaker 3:But one of the things that and this statistic is out there now but that print marketing, and especially mail marketing, has a much slower decay rate than digital, right, so with digital, if you see it and you don't act on it right away, what's the chances you're going to act on it in the future? Print, you're bringing it into your house, you might stick it in the basket or whatever and look at it later, but you're looking at it on your terms, where there's far greater impact of it.
Speaker 1:I really don't even. I don't know if I've ever really looked at it that way?
Speaker 2:No, I certainly haven't. I mean the omni-channel aspect of that is really interesting.
Speaker 3:You know, I love I think that's the best word it's be omni-channel and it's be omnipresent, right? Yeah, I want to be out there and I want. I had a neighbor of mine for something that we did in the community and we were talking the other day. He goes, man, you guys are everywhere, and I said that's exactly the point.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I got it.
Speaker 1:So what are some of the ways that you found? I mean, branding is branding. Branding has been around since God knows when. But reaching outside of RTO, seeing some of the things that are going, what are some of the new branding trends that are coming down this way? Because you're saying print is not dead. Print is something that actually can be very much alive in the home of customers now. Now we're not saying don't do the electronic marketing, but at the same time it's not dead. If it comes in, if you get it in, it sits. It kind of sits on that mind thought. If it comes in, if you get it in, it sits. It kind of sits on that mind thought. How does that affect branding? Where do I, how do I get a better? I'm trying to say this the right way, but how do I make my brand stick out as much as I want to without going digital 100%?
Speaker 3:So let's back up here and make sure we're clear on definitions. I love it.
Speaker 3:Charles is like yeah, let's get them definitions right, baby, let's not confuse branding and advertising and promotion. Digital is a channel. Print is a channel. Doing your trucks is a channel. Your brand is bigger than that. Right, and I think one of the biggest things that you see out there with brands and this is something that everybody needs to look at is what does my brand mean? Right? We see people that you know, if we all are saying the same thing, that's simply a price of admission for getting there. What does my brand mean to people? What does the feeling? Uh, what does the feeling mean? What does what does it stand for? Right, and, and so I think the first thing that we have to look at is what do we want to be? What do we want to mean? We've got to develop our brand before we can market. The challenge that I see a lot of companies doing is they're trying to market and be all things to all people without really meaning anything for any one person.
Speaker 2:So that kind of reminds me of something and this is something we really think about. I heard this in the association space and we really try to think about with APRO Are we known for what we want to be known for? About with APRO? Are we known for what we want to be known for? And that idea of your branding are you known for what you want to be known for? Are you following through on that?
Speaker 3:A hundred percent. And it's not just, you can't just say it, you have to live it right.
Speaker 1:I mean you know, one part of our brand is we always say tastefully obnoxious, right, and I want to be out there.
Speaker 3:I want to be bold, you know I would. I want people to know who we are. I'm not afraid of hurting somebody's feelings or pushing the envelope or something like that, because that's who we are. And when we're working with clients, I can't tell people to be omnipresent if I'm not omnipresent. I can't tell people to be bold if I'm not bold. So I think that's part of it. I think you're a hundred percent right, charles. It's, it's who. What are we telling people we are and is it communicating that same exact thing? I had a. This was years ago. I had a client in the quick serve restaurant place space and they served roast beef sandwiches without saying who they are. But they always said they're not like McDonald's or Burger King, that they are a premium quick serve experience, and I said you can say whatever you want, your food comes out of a window. It's all the same thing, right?
Speaker 1:So if you guys don't know, andrew, he just loves to put it right there in your face.
Speaker 2:This is what I'm saying.
Speaker 1:In case you missed it. That's why I love you, Andrew. So how do we use kind of going back to it a little bit but how do we utilize these businesses outside? Because Rentone is a very unique situation in the sense that we come together in different ways that other companies don't. We share a lot of innovations with ourselves, like other companies don't, but then what we don't want to do is create that echo chamber where we're all excited about the same thing but we could all be bringing in a new idea, as opposed to one person, and then we all share it. So let's flip that on its ear. What is going on outside of the rent-to-own space that can help us innovate as an industry?
Speaker 3:I think part one is defining what's going to make a specific brand better. Right, if you're brand X brand, why brand Z? Why are you different? Right, and and and look, do a hard internal audit of your brand and you know, sometimes it's not any fun, but we've got to look and see is my core messaging the same as everybody else's? Okay, then that's a price of admission, right, that is, I can't sit there and say you know, I, I, whatever the statement is, if everybody else has the same thing, one, what makes me different? Right, and it can't be something that we can't show or that's later on, right, well, we treat our people different, right, or something like that. They can't see that, so how are we going to get out there and do that?
Speaker 3:But I think part two is really creating an impact on the customer at all phases. We work with a private equity owned roofing company and they are super aggressive on everything they do. And if you look at that model and that's the same model that a lot of home service companies follow and I think that we're borderline in this where we're a little bit different, maybe, than a traditional retailer and we're maybe more like a outdoor lighting guy or something like that, because we have the opportunity to get in the customer's home and I think we take that for granted to look at and sit there and say where's my customers. I was just talking to a dealer 20 minutes ago in the booth and he said I can't get my guys to do door hangers. How is that an option? Because the five guys up and the five guys down.
Speaker 1:Those are your best prospects. Wait, that was an option. Was that an option at some point?
Speaker 3:It's become one, but you know what? But again, let's look at all of those things. So are we trying to reinvent the wheel or do we just need to get back to solid execution and getting out there? We're not like again your Tampa stores are serving people in Tampa, they're not serving people elsewhere. I have the opportunity to get in front of them, why don't I?
Speaker 1:So we're talking about when you say stuff like that, we're talking about the local, like the Rotary Club and the Better Business Bureau and things like that Getting involved not only in the local businesses but the local politics, everything local.
Speaker 3:That's a big part of it, but you have to go into it with the mindset of that's a big part of it, but you have to go into it with the mindset of I may not get the ROI on it in week one, right? So many times we look at things and we sit there and go hey, we did door hangers last week and we didn't get any more deals. We're done and we don't do it anymore. You got to feed the beast, but you have to be committed to it over time. Right, you're not going to go to a chamber event. Have to be committed to it over time. Right, you're not going to go to a chamber event.
Speaker 3:And so with some of my coaching clients, we talk about this. You're not going to go to a chamber event and do rent to own deals. So what am I going to sell at a chamber event? Right, could I do an employee VIP program? Could I look at maybe furnishing rental properties for somebody or home staging, because there's always 12 gajillion retailers in there. But there is an idea there. So what is the product that I'm going to take to these guys? And I think that's a big part of it that we have to look at what am I going to take to them? And then, what commitment am I going to make? It's not a one-time thing, right? It's not whether it's a mailer, and the same thing applies to digital. You don't put one Facebook ad out there and beat a path to your door.
Speaker 1:You know, I know a couple of stories I can learn from that.
Speaker 1:You need more than one a year, otherwise it's not going to work. Charles, when we're talking about you know and it's funny that you mention that because we have Amberlee that does a lot of stuff for us here at APRO and when you came in, there was a complete shift of not only how we looked, how we acted, how everything came about and you know, I know that Andrew's on the board Is that just like one of those examples where you can say, hey, this is a fundamental difference between I don't know part A and part B. I should say I don't want to degrade anything that happened beforehand, but you know there is a stark difference. Well, I'll go want to degrade anything that happened beforehand, but there is a stark difference.
Speaker 2:Well, I'll go back to that and what we talked about with the branding are we known for what we want to be known for? And that's one of those questions I think about often in what we're doing, how we're presenting ourselves, how we're representing the membership externally, what we're doing internally for the members in terms of benefits. And that's a pretty strong guiding principle because, you know, we have very high aspirations. We've released a new mission statement last year of promote and protect the industry. We released a vision statement last year that we want to be the rising tide that elevates all ships. And are we that for the industry? What are we doing? And we can tie every single thing with intentionality to what we do of being that rising tide. And that's what I want to be known for. Whenever anyone thinks of APRO is to think of us as that rising tide. And what we do through events like this, through legislative conference or advocacy, through our external PR-type measures.
Speaker 1:So I got to ask you have this commercial that came up when we were watching the big show, right, and the Vox thing comes up and you start putting everything out there. What are some of the crazy things that you can do now with all this technology and all these machines? I see you said drumsticks, We've got lunchboxes. I mean Vox can kind of really kind of do it on everything.
Speaker 3:Oh yeah, but I want to back up to something Charles said, because I think that he's not giving himself or the whole APRO team a whole lot of credit on one thing One of the guys that we're really working with closely is Brandon Dawson, that some people may know from a consulting perspective, but one of the things that Brandon taught me was be an owl Ask who, right? Who can help me get here, who can introduce me to this person, who can do this? And I will say that when the leadership changed at APRO and the mindset change was one of the things that y'all did is y'all definitely asked who, and you started looking at your vendors, you started looking at other people that you work closely with to say who can help me grow this thing, who can help me achieve this mission and who can help me do that? And I think that's huge, because when we ask people for help, they help us get there. Nobody can get there alone. So I want to make sure that that was pointed out, because you and I have talked about that offline, about the difference there, but y'all really played owls in that.
Speaker 1:Well, I got to say, in case anybody doesn't know, Andrew is also part of the board right, the vendor committee, so he gets to kind of really get some feedback and let us know what's going on, especially at April. Going on at the show right now, at the RTO Show, World Show 2025. Andrew, I really appreciate you stopping by. Daniel. I'm glad that you came by and said hello. We're going to really start wrapping this up. I know that we got so much going on.
Speaker 3:I don't want Dennis to come over here and be, like be like, yeah, he's about to yell and kick us out. We do do a lot of cool stuff, so you should come by and talk to us.
Speaker 1:All right, we'll come by and see the box store. Listen, they are right here in front of us. On what aisle? Is that what?
Speaker 3:is it 500?
Speaker 2:yeah, I think we're 514 or 508 somewhere about halfway down the aisle and I'll tell you I've I've been to their facility and it is incredible. It it's amazing what the thing is.
Speaker 1:Luckily, I was able to do the Ken Butler story over there.
Speaker 1:Yeah right and you know he walked in like he owned the place and he was all at home. It was just kind of he was just like. You know I think my slippers are still down there and he just came in and we just had like a really good conversation. It was really nice to want to just come back and come full circle. We've had some great guests on today. We've really been able to talk about some of the changes that RTO is making as a whole, which is something for me. I'm very glad to see that we're going through this, the legal advocacy that's going on right now. I think there's a lot more attention being put on the legal advocacy part of what we do, and it wasn't like that and I'm not saying it was never this good, I'm just saying that, coming back to when we look at it now over the last couple of years, wherever that chart starts climbing, it was because you know we're starting the fellowship program. Is Vox doing part of the fellowship program too?
Speaker 3:We are involved in LegCon and do all all of that and we haven't brought a fellow yet, but we're staying super involved. We're thinking about bringing a fellow.
Speaker 1:I just want you to know the RTO show might be bringing a fellow next year. So if you guys are ever interested, let me know on how that works, because we might do that Also. Not forgetting we're going to dunk you.
Speaker 3:If, if if I want you to know this.
Speaker 1:Charles has so many accolades. I was doing a little study on him and, from what I understand, charles actually has a certificate that he's certified to be a CEO. Is that not right? You have a certified CEO certificate.
Speaker 2:I just obtained one to be a certified association.
Speaker 1:He's certified with a PhD. He's got a JD, but he's certified to be a CEO. If anybody didn't know that, he has got a certification that says he can do his job well in the United States. I wanted to say that out loud. I remember that. Listen. Our sponsors we do want to say thank you to all the sponsors. We've got Wild Brands, we've got Vox here, we've got JLR America. Hey, say thank you to all the sponsors. You know, we got Wild Brands, we got Vox here, we've got JLR America. Hey guys, how you doing? Everybody that's doing a great job.
Speaker 1:Gerard Marketing, we really appreciate you guys getting together, also as sponsors for the RTO World situation here in RTO World 2025, this would not be possible without all the vendors that we have coming together. I know you were talking about it earlier. Vox does a great job at really helping us put all this together. You guys got to see their booth. It's amazing. There's literally a big bowl. That's looking at the bowl that's on this table right now.
Speaker 1:Wanted you guys to know if you guys want to support us here, be a vendor, come in support RTO World 2025, or you can support the show by being a sponsor. Hit me up at Pete at the RTOshowpodcastcom. Let me know what you want to do. We can work something out, but we really need to. I just want you guys to know that everything that you guys do for us is getting everything back to everybody else, and we do appreciate that. So, last but not least, charles, I'm gonna let you cut it out. We have had a great hour so far. Some great attendees stopping by. We've got Andrew, jeff and Mike stopping by and kind of, let us know what's going on. You ready to do this full time?
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, no not yet I need you to be certified as a podcaster.
Speaker 2:I can tell you that you did the service.
Speaker 3:Hey, I know a guy that can make you a certified podcaster certificate Add. Make you a certified podcaster certificate. Add that one. Charles picked up two this week.
Speaker 2:Well, you might have two this week, well, I'll tell you this, pete what you do with this podcast is a great service to the industry. The stories that you're able to tell, going and talking to these people week after week, and what you do. We're proud to be a sponsor. I know Andrew is as well. Thank you for what you do, because you're a big piece of this industry, and the things that we're trying to do with APRO and to grow and share the good news about what RTO is.
Speaker 1:Well, I couldn't compete with APRO or Vox. I'd come up with a whole different niche.
Speaker 2:I was like you know what Nobody's doing this. We're going to go a whole different direction.
Speaker 1:But I really do appreciate that, charles, and it's about the passion. I wouldn't do this if it wasn't the passion that I have for the business and watching the people that go by right here and their passion for the business and enjoying that. So I really appreciate you guys. I appreciate you guys coming by. We thank you for listening to the show and I want to tell you guys, as always, get your collections low to get your sales high. Have a great one.
