Inside the Legal Side of Rent-to-Own Sheds

One missed disclosure, one careless ad, or one unopened bankruptcy notice can turn a profitable rent-to-own deal into a full-blown legal mess. That’s why we brought on Nick Garrard, NSRA legal counsel and an attorney who works deep in the shed rent to own world, to help us get practical about where dealers get exposed and how to stay ahead of it.

We talk through what really changes when you move from traditional RTO items to higher-value sheds, and why the fundamentals still come back to the Rental Purchase Agreement Act, state-required disclosures, and consistent contract language. Nick breaks down how multi-state expansion creates risk in unexpected places, especially advertising. Some states can require specific pricing and term disclosures the moment you market an offer, even if your home office is somewhere else. If you have ever wondered why one state feels “easy” and another feels like a compliance minefield, we get into real examples like California maintenance requirements and pricing caps mentioned in places like West Virginia.

Then we shift into bankruptcy, the topic most dealers avoid until it lands on their desk. Nick explains how rent-to-own agreements are typically treated as true leases in bankruptcy, what “assume or reject” means, and why deadlines are everything. We also cover what you can often do yourself, like filing a proof of claim and requesting notice, so you save legal fees while still protecting your assets.

We wrap with where NSRA is headed, how collaboration with APRO is raising standards through ethics and better data, and what to expect at upcoming industry events. Subscribe, share this with a dealer who needs it, and leave a review if the show helps you run tighter. What state compliance issue has surprised you the most?

Transcript

Welcome And Quick Housekeeping

SPEAKER_00 0:07

Hello and welcome to the RTO Show podcast. I'm your host, Pete Chow. I've got somebody great today. Actually, I'm a little worried because I'm sitting in the hot seat. We got some legal counsel for the NSRA. But before we get started there, before we start talking to Nick, I want you guys to know listen, half of the people listening are not subscribed. I need you to go on there, hit the subscription, hit the bell, get subscribed. You don't want to miss an episode, especially one that we have going on today. Little bit of homework for you guys. Make sure you go to the podcast website. It's rtoshowpodcast.com. Make sure you go down to the newsletter section, put your name, put your email. You don't want to miss out because we cover subjects there that we don't cover here. Also, we still have some sponsorships available. Make sure you go down there again, go to the website, click that little link on there, help us out because you guys are the ones that we do it for. Now, I'm with Nick Girard from the NSRA legal counsel attorney at law. I have uh I have some stuff here as an as an introduction. This is a long list of stuff. He's done very well for himself. He's he he's I would have him as legal counsel too. So, Nick, how are you doing today? How's everything going in Mississippi?

SPEAKER_02 1:15

It's great, Pete. Thank you for uh having me on. Appreciate you and what you do for the industry. And uh no, everything's everything's great down here. How are things in Tampa?

SPEAKER_00 1:24

You know, it is sunny right now. Yesterday we had, or yesterday, two days ago, what was it, Anthony? We had some we had some winds, we had some rain, man, and and it was it was reminiscent of our uh you know hurricane days, but they went away like in like 10 minutes. So I'm not even arguing, but we need the rain, so I'm glad to get it. So just so you guys know, the NSRA is the National Shed Rental Association. Now you guys hear me talk about APRO all the time. So the Association of Professional Rent Professional Rental Organizations is a sponsor of the show, and we do a lot with them. But I had no idea that the NSRA was actually part of APRO, which I was getting filled in at LedgeCon this year about Nick's involvement, what he does, and what he represents

Meeting NSRA Counsel Nick Girard

SPEAKER_00 2:05

as far as legal counsel. So, first question I got, Nick, is do you know Ed Wynn, the legendary Ed Wynn?

SPEAKER_02 2:12

Absolutely, absolutely. Ed and I, uh Ed was, you know, like a mentor to me. When I first started um going to April event, I went to an April event in Daytona Beach. I don't know if that was 10 or 15 years ago. First saw Ed there, and then um NSRA events over the years, and Ed would come and speak, do a legal update uh for all the all the shed guys. And so from that I got to know Ed. And you know, he's just been I mean, obviously, he's uh one of a kind. Um you know, nobody can can uh can fill those shoes. But um uh uh yeah, he's just been wonderful. And um, you know, I think he he must be enjoying retirement.

SPEAKER_00 3:02

So he uh I listen, when I talk to Ed, he is definitely enjoying retirement. He's he said on several occasions to me, like, no, no, I'm glad I'm retired. I think it is wonderful, it is excellent. So for those of you who don't know, Ed Wynne is the legal counselor or was the legal counselor for April for over 40 years. He just retired uh not that long ago, and he is doing a great job. He's part of the Legends series, if you guys want to check that out. I love Ed Wynn because he's he just has he has a wit and demeanor about him, and he's just a straight shooter, right? I mean, he just tells you like it is. Exactly. There's no, you know, we're we're not beating around the bush here. No, no, there's no fluff work with it.

SPEAKER_02 3:37

No, no. He uh he'll give you his opinion, whether you whether you um agree with him or not, but he's gonna put it out there and uh I appreciate that about him. And look, he he was um he was wonderful to me as far as when I was kind of breaking into the industry. I had I had two little uh files that somebody needed some legal work on uh involving shits. And um I was like, what is what is this that I'm that I'm even doing? I I don't even know. I'm trying to figure this out and figure out this this business and this industry, and you know, and then in doing that research, I've come across APRO and the uh what was in in B SRA, but um N Sra. And then, you know, uh just getting connected with Ed through that was was great and something that I couldn't, you know, have done otherwise. I mean, just a wonderful wonderful man, a wonderful mentor in the uh industry, and certainly one of the kind.

SPEAKER_00 4:40

Well, he's gonna be missed. I mean, Ed, you're always welcome to come on the show. I always tell him that, but he's like, I'm good. I'm I'm I'm good being retired. He's really excited about that. Yeah, so getting a little bit of background on you, I've got that you were born and raised in Mississippi, so you didn't go very far. At least, at least that's good, right? You're in Jackson now. But um, you graduated from Old Miss, you went to the Ole Miss uh School of Law, you are practicing out of Jackson now. You are uh you made you were rated by the Martindale Hubble basically the highest possible peer rating for ethics and legal ability. That is what I it's a mouthful, right? I can't even say that, right? It's a mouthful. That's that's awesome. And then you were admitted to practice in Mississippi, Texas, North Carolina, as well as the U.S. Court's appeal of the Fourth and Fifth Circuits. You are a busy guy, sir.

SPEAKER_02 5:28

Busy, busy. Um, you know, like I said, when I first started out here in um Mississippi, um uh born and raised in I think Mississippi, I think I saw the other day that we have the highest percentage of born and raised, you know, population in the country. So people, you know, I think I was born up in the Mississippi Delta, which is a lot of farmland, and um people say when you when you kind of get that delta mud on you, you you don't get you can't get get up away from it. But yeah, so that's that's what that's my home. And um, but yeah, uh done done work here in Mississippi, uh clerked for a law uh a judge up in the Delta and been in private practice

Ed Wynn And Industry Legal Mentors

SPEAKER_02 6:15

since 2012. Um and um you know, got admitted to the North Carolina bar from here. I've done some work up there and now admitted out in Texas as well. So just trying to help as best I can wherever I'm needed.

SPEAKER_00 6:34

Well, I tell you what, Florida is not like that. I don't know if uh, you know, Anthony views we are we are transplanted from every place on God's green earth. I seldom know a few people that are actually born in Florida and from Florida. They're like we all transfer from somewhere else. So it's great to hear that. So you know, talking about your history and a little bit of the accolades that you have, you know, being that you're you are from there, what led you to be involved in the rent-to-owned industry? Because that it doesn't seem like I would be tracking that, but here you are.

SPEAKER_02 7:07

Yeah, um it was uh interesting. You know, I I uh was working with this firm and we it was a predecessor to this this current firm uh that I'm with, Wilkins Patterson, but we we did a little bit of work. Um, this firm is primarily workers come defense, insurance defense, a to typically uh traditional small defense firm. And um, like I said, I had um one or two clients that sort of off-handed had some work as far as uh shed rent to own agreement. And uh I took that and just thought, well, if these guys need some work, there's probably more out there. There's probably something else out there with this industry, and um started looking around and found uh, like I said, found NSRA, found Apro, and realized that this is a large, large industry with people, great people, wonderful people, but that might need some uh legal counsel somewhere along the way. And um, you know, it started off with doing things and still do, um collection, repossession type work, because you know, with the sheds, obviously we're talking about a much larger like cash value of a property than some of the traditional Apro uh uh items that you might rent on from a from a store. So you so there's a a i it's the same transaction, but it's a little bit of a difference in terms of the legal world just because there's a higher value item out there. So started off doing collections, repos, and um grew from there to working on contracts and bankruptcies and uh business formations and operation agreements, and it just grew and grew and grew. I had no idea, I didn't expect to have this as like a primary part of my my practice. I mean, that was uh certainly unexpected, but it's been a wonderful, wonderful opportunity and a great group of people to work with, wonderful niche practice area. So it uh it really just kind of happened. I mean, uh it was not something that I originally uh thought of, you know.

SPEAKER_00 9:37

It just I'm gonna fill you in on something, Nick. Yeah. Every time I do this show, one of the main questions I ask is how did you happen to get into the RTO industry? And everybody, and I'm I'm telling you, we're batting probably 99 out of 100. I had no idea. I don't know. I it just something that came up and it was a big old hurdle, and I stumbled right over it, and before I knew it, I was in it 100%. Yeah. You know, it's just it was just face first, and all of a sudden, you know, 20 years later, I this is what I do, you know? It's true. Same thing.

SPEAKER_02 10:05

Yeah, yeah. And I think that's uh not an unfamiliar uh story for for attorneys. I mean, you know, fresh out of law school, I mean, who knows what you're gonna do, where you're gonna develop a practice, what you're gonna really love about the law. Um, you know, and so it it really was. It was um it was a blessing and uh something that I really uh enjoyed and so just tried to grow it and it's uh it's been wonderful.

SPEAKER_00 10:36

So I gotta I got a question. This is a I'm gonna I'm gonna walk off the beaten path for just one second. Charles is a big he's on the he's on the show all the time. You know, we do a lot of things together because Apro

How A Shed RTO Practice Happens

SPEAKER_00 10:45

and the RTO show are so close. And uh I I jab him all the time because he's like one of the smartest guys I know. He's actually married to the one of the other smartest people I know. But uh when you guys get together, is there just legal jargon that flies everywhere and you guys get deep into the books? Or how does that work? I can just see you guys like like you know having a drink and just talking about all kinds of wild stuff.

SPEAKER_02 11:05

I mean, that's I think that's true for any for all lawyers. I mean, people people like to uh better may not want to be around because you can get you can get deep in the weeds quick um with legal stuff and legal jargon. And yeah, but no, Charles is uh Charles is obviously awesome at his job, does a wonderful, wonderful Freight Pro, and he's been wonderful for us and the shed industry too. And uh he he's great, a great resource.

SPEAKER_00 11:33

He has been. I agree with that. So let me get back on track here. Given all the stuff that you've accomplished, and then being able to be in the rentone industry, and you do you do a lot of things um day to day from compliance to contract review revision, uh the UCC uh matters and fair debt collection practices and all this stuff. What is probably one of the first things that when you get a call from a client that's part of the NSRA, what is like one of the first things that you hear? Is it is it based on collections or is it like, you know, how do I stay out of hot water, or I'm already in hot water, how do I get out of it? Like what is what is one of the first things that you get when somebody calls you?

SPEAKER_02 12:09

Well, that's a good question. And it really depends. I mean, if it's somebody that I have a relationship with and I've worked with over the years, usually it's that you know, we're trying to stay ahead of some issue or uh come up with come up with a new idea or something they want to run by me, um, something like that. Now, if it's the the flip side of that is if it's somebody I've not had a relationship with in the past, it's usually that something has gone terribly wrong.

SPEAKER_00 12:34

Anthony has gotten worse. That's when I when I call my producer, that's what it was. He's like, he doesn't know me, but it's bad because I need you now. See, I understand that. When you know them, it's like, hi, hey, dude, what's going on? If not, it's like, yeah, you're in trouble. You shouldn't have done that. Something went wrong. Let Nick come to the aid, man. Let me tell you. So when when is the contract language in what the sheds do, is it different than the agreement language that we have on a traditional side? Have you been able to compare those two and see?

SPEAKER_02 13:05

You know, for the most part, the the biggest um the biggest um um issues are the same. So uh I mean, you know, like the things that keep it an RTO transaction are the same, whether it's a TV, a couch, or a big shed. Um we're still talking about the same the same documents, the same uh disclosures that are required state to state. Uh you know, and so each state uh has a rental purchase agreement act uh pretty much every state. I think it's 47 out of 50. Correct. And um you know, and so each one is a little bit different. There a lot of them are generally the same, but yeah, in terms of the transaction, it is the same um for for sheds, and it's the same for uh for a traditional rent-owned type.

SPEAKER_00 14:04

So we fall under a lot of the same laws. Yes. Okay, so if somebody so when somebody has a company, right, and they they cross state lines, and we we have guys that are in-state only and they only worry about the Florida statutes, and then you got some people that are you know multi-state, they're they're crossing state lines. How is it how how important are you in those conversations when you're going, okay, you're based out of Florida, but you've got something in Georgia, Louisiana, North Carolina, and we've got to tweet this out. I mean, those got to be some pretty, pretty in-depth conversations.

SPEAKER_02 14:32

Absolutely. And um, it's very important, obviously, because some states are more litigious than others, and some are easier to deal with, and some are not, some are but worse. Um, you know, but yeah, anytime you're looking at going into a new state, it's very important to get a full picture of what you're going into and uh full picture of what their disclosures require.

SPEAKER_00 14:54

Let me ask you something. Are you getting everything out of your rent-to-owned business? If you're not an April member, then the answer is probably no. Look, advocacy is April's bread and butter. This is why they were created and what they do best. But here's the thing April membership is about way more than advocacy. April connects you to the movers and the shakers of the industry, people who've been there, done that, and they could help you do it even better. APRO's monthly webinars give you expert insights and actionable takeaways. It's like having a masterclass for your business every single month. Got questions about complex regulations or sticky situations? No problem. April's Legal Hotline gives you direct access to experts who have got the answers. That's a peace of mind that you can't put a price on. And let's not forget the resources, news, updates, and tools that keep you ahead of the curb. Scholarships for your team? Check. Disaster

What Clients Ask First

SPEAKER_00 15:45

relief when you need it most? Double check. APRO is your ultimate support system in the rent-to-own world. So stop settling for less. With APRO members, get more. More support, more connections, more success. Head over to rtohq.org and join the APRO family today. Because in this business, more isn't just better, it's essential. See you at the top with APRO.

SPEAKER_02 16:09

Another important thing with that, too, that uh sometimes gets missed is the advertising uh requirements and disclosures because you know some states may have a specific advertising statute that say you've got if you if you advertise at all, you've got to put out the full uh gamut of in terms of what the cash price is, what the RTO price is, you know, what the cost of the lease is. And some are and some yeah, so so you have to have a uh I think a uh basically a sales sticker, you know, or something like that if you're if you're advertising in certain states. So you know, you may be you may be operating in one state and advertising in some others. You need to be aware of what those requirements are.

SPEAKER_00 16:56

I I did not know that. Actually, I I would I would figure it'd be more in collections on the collection side. Can you imagine, Anthony? We're trying to read the long list of stuff because we're on radio, and then you got the you got the you remember that guy who had the little cars in the speeds to speed read? You remember that? You know, come get the sofa over here, and you know, Bob's rent to own, and then you gotta go to the prices and make sure it's up there's one of the mother micro machines. The micro machines, that's it. That was the guy, right? So you know, you get a 30-second ad and 15% 15 seconds of that is just this the guy speed reading all the stuff that you gotta do. Right. But I figured it would be more on the collection side because I do and I and I I guess you've just never really done. I've never been in your issues in that sense, but like, you know, I figured I I've seen some collection differences between one state and another, how many times you're allowed to call, how many messages you can leave, and what can you leave, what can you say, what can you do when you're at the home, what can you say, and what can you do whether they're there or not there? So I know that that's always uh you know an important it's always important to make sure you know all the laws, but going in between states, like that's a lot of laws to know. Real quick, do you what what would be two states that you're saying, you know, that you would in your mind go, these are completely different? Like one goes, you know, it's it's pretty simple, easy going, and one is like completely different. Do you I mean, would you know that offhand?

SPEAKER_02 18:07

Yeah, so I think if a state like uh California,

Multi State Compliance And Advertising Rules

SPEAKER_02 18:10

um he had a he shot out of California for I should have I should have known that.

SPEAKER_00 18:15

I mean, Cali is like they have their own branding. This is already and in 49 states it's good, but not in California. Like we this we do we have our own way of doing it over here.

SPEAKER_02 18:24

That's right. I mean, you know, it it is what it is, but uh uh uh so sorry to all my California friends. Uh uh throw them out there. But they're they're just one that where where it's a little different. Um, you know, certain types of uh and I think of a state like New York where you have a um a disclosure requirement where you have to have a certain box in your lease and and it has to spell out certain items. And and uh California came to mind because of a uh maintenance issue. I think it's where they uh you know you as the less lessor are required to maintain the property. Um in most other states you can put the maintenance requirement onto the customer, which is uh really a big issue with sheds. You know, if you have a a um an issue with your shed, you you you um you're you are responsible in California for going out there and making chairs fixed, whatever. And um so I compare that with a state like you know, Mississippi where I am, or uh Texas, where you you may not have that type of a requirement, um a bit more laid back on some of the disclosures, um things like that. Yeah, and then and then you have some states like uh West Virginia comes to mind where we've had some litigation in the past several years, uh, which is uh something that you really want to be aware of. And so and has maybe some requirements like the caps that you are allowed to charge for an item. So I think in West Virginia it's 240% of the cash price.

SPEAKER_01 20:09

Right.

SPEAKER_02 20:10

So you you know, and then you have like Mississippi, there's no no such cap. It's basically just what the market bears. So you know, those are some some of the big differences uh state to state. You also have things like the reinstatement provisions that vary from there's there's so many out there for reinstatement. And um I was interested to learn.

SPEAKER_00 20:36

I put him on the spot. He doesn't have the nose, I put him on the spot. He's like, Man, he had to ask me that. There's like 15 different ones, Pete. There's 15 different ones out there.

SPEAKER_02 20:43

But but but Pete, I was interested to learn at APRO at the legislative conference that we went to, that a lot of the companies through APRO offer some sort of a lifetime reinstatement.

SPEAKER_00 20:59

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 20:59

You know, and that that's new to me. I got that that's new to me in terms of the sheds. That's not something that I've seen in the shed world. And so that was interesting.

SPEAKER_00 21:09

I don't know how the logistics work on that. You know, if I bring one back and then, you know, if if if it's sold or whatever the case is, do I get something back in equal or the same value, but it's a different color, it's a different model, whatever the case is, do I come back to the same? So I I do understand that that might be a little different, but it could be an avenue to get people back on the books, you know, so to speak. Um because that is something that we do. It's a little easier for a couch and a TV, but I will say that I mean, if it's something that you guys uh don't do, maybe, you know, always looking at new avenues and ways to make it work. I'm glad you mentioned New York because uh, you know, there's some there's some current cases in New York. There are two laws that are really kind of standing out. How does that uh do they affect the shed rent to own side as well? Because I know that it's really going to affect the furniture side.

SPEAKER_02 21:51

You know, I'm not I I I've not explored that uh much, and that's a a good point. I need to probably Get in on that, but um it's not something that has uh come across my desk yet. Um so I need to I need to check in on that before I say something that I that I shouldn't.

SPEAKER_00 22:14

Well I tell you what right now, the next time you talk to Charlie, you say, Listen, Pete told me, and I need to talk to you about those two laws in New York, and we gotta we gotta figure out if I'm if we are gonna be involved in that because the NSRA could could unfortunately be inadvertently involved into it. And then you got all stuff that you gotta kind of retroactively go after once you once all these laws are passed instead of being more active on it. You know.

California Maintenance And Other State Traps

SPEAKER_00 22:35

So what what talking about some of the things that you do, because I know that you handle some bankruptcy as far as something goes, you know, um a lot of rent-to-owned dealers don't think about bankruptcy as they're going into it, right? They're thinking either, you know, repossession if they can't pay for it, or they pay it off, they do some type of same as cash. They get it, it gets taken care of. We we do that. But bankruptcy is not something that they think about. How does that work in the shed industry as far as the rent-to-owned shed side?

SPEAKER_02 22:59

Well, it's um it's a it's a project that I've uh really enjoyed, actually. And it's something that I do think guys on your side should should look into because there's so much in the bankruptcy world that you as the leasing company can do yourself. You don't have to have a lawyer to go file your own proof of claim, your own uh, you know, file a request for notice so you stay on track of what's being filed in the case. And what I've tried to do is just work on that education side of it, work with my clients and uh leasing companies in terms of what you can do that you don't need me for. So I'll train you, I'll train your staff, and that way you don't you don't need a lawyer. You know, in a in a big percentage of the bankruptcy cases, you know, the leasing companies can can do those things themselves. If you learn how to file a proof of claim, uh if you learn to call the debtor's lawyer and talk to them about it, uh you can resolve so many issues. And you can probably get paid, if not the full value. You you're gonna get probably some money out of it that you wouldn't have otherwise gotten. So in the bankruptcy side uh for sheds, it's um uh you know, same same process. It's uh it's a uh lease, it's a true lease for purposes of bankruptcy. So you should not be classified as a secured claim, but but as a true lease. So what that means is the customer has to either assume the lease in its entirety or reject the lease. And um, if they assume it, they should keep paying you just like they were directly through the uh plan. Now there's some caveats to all that, but in a perfect world, that's how it would work.

SPEAKER_00 24:53

Perfect world. And I love the perfect world sound. I need to go there. But so Nick, tell me about it because you you're you're saying things that really resonate with the traditional side. I would love to see you at RTO World having a one-hour segment where you're telling people what they can and should do, whether they, you know, whether they need to get a lawyer or not. At least these are the steps that you can take in your state to do something better, or at least, you know, hey, I represent these many states. This is what I can tell you in these states. Because I know guys who would really, really be interested in what you have to say. Again, Charles, give me a call. But I'm just saying, it's my i i I would I think that it would have some traction. And if it doesn't, we need to have another podcast where we're doing nothing but bankruptcy. Because I can tell you right now that is fascinating.

SPEAKER_02 25:37

Well, um, you know, it it's uh obviously bankruptcy is a federal system, so you have so much state to state that you that is that is the same. You know, you have the same forms. Yeah, you so you're not dealing with state-specific issues a lot of the time. I mean, you s with state-specific laws you are, but like is the terms of the forms and the practice and the procedure, what you do in bankruptcy is pretty uniform state to state. Um, and at least in Mississippi, and then I, you know, I do bankruptcy work in Texas and some in North Carolina too, but I find that the bankruptcy bar is pretty small. The guys that you tend to run into in terms of who the debtor's lawyers are are the same guys you see over and over and over and over again. So you develop a relationship with those people. And what you what I end up doing a lot of times is I'm training them uh on how they should be filing their bankruptcy cases so that they don't have to respond to an objection because they get paid, you know, basically a flat fee for filing a bankruptcy case. Right. They don't get paid anymore for responding to my motion or arguing with them about the so they don't they don't want to. They don't want to have to fight with us about it. So once they kind of understand the transaction and know what the deal is, they know to file it as a lease. And it just, you know, after a time

Pricing Caps And Reinstatement Differences

SPEAKER_02 27:05

or two, you get real comfortable with it, and um, you know, you have a lot less problems down the road.

SPEAKER_00 27:11

Aaron Powell What would you say is one of the biggest uh mistakes that you see when an RTO dealer is dealing with a bankruptcy case that comes across their desk. I have Miss Jones now who's now in bankruptcy. What's what are some of the the the shortfalls or the pitfalls you see them doing right up front that you're like, uh you probably shouldn't have done that, or or let me advise you.

SPEAKER_02 27:28

Well, but probably the the wor you know the worst is when eh put that bankruptcy notice. I'll put that on the back of my desk and I'll think about it tomorrow. I'll think about it tomorrow, then I'll think about it next week. You know, um the the um I think it's uh what is the quote? The best thing to do is the right thing, and the second best thing to do is something. You know, you just be active. Do something. It's just look at the you you you have really important deadlines in bankruptcy case, in a bankruptcy c case, and you know, deadlines to file your claim, deadlines to respond to certain motions or objections. And so, you know, if you just put it away and don't do anything, you know, you're obviously gonna run the risk of not being able to respond. So that's the that's the biggest hurdle is just getting people comfortable. You know, a lot of people just don't like the idea of I gotta do something about this bankruptcy case. Just just getting people and companies comfortable with the response.

SPEAKER_00 28:40

Well, you're absolutely right about that. Because the last one I got, I didn't want to touch it with a 10-foot pole. It's sat on my desk and I think it started beating its own heart, and I was just like, no, you know, darn you. Um really do. But yeah, and that's why I said, like, I, you know, if if you don't end up doing that, I would love to have you on again to have that conversation about bankruptcy. Because listen, there's a lot of guys that I know are going through something at this moment, and they're like, I'm trying to do it myself. I don't really know if this is right. I I ended up having to hire a lawyer because I don't know what to do. And it's like, and and here's the thing, and I'm not trying to blame anybody. I understand why people go into bankruptcy, I understand what's going on, but from a dealer side, the question is how much time am I spending on this? How much time am I getting, you know, how much am I spending with my legal counsel? How much is that gonna cost me versus what I'm getting out of it? Now, the traditional side might be a little different because you know, sofa and loves or bedroom sets or dining room tables, they have a finite amount that they're worth, right? So the first time that I go to legal counsel and we sit down for two hours, it's not worth it for me to go for anything. So, and again, I'm not saying that, you know, as a consumer, that's not a concern. Of course, obviously, if you're in bankruptcy, it's because you have something going on. But dealers also want to protect their assets as well. So as it's as it's coming in, you know, there's always that, all right, what can I do to make this more beneficial for myself instead of just going straight to the bottom line and writing it off? Because the moment that I get somebody involved, you know, yes, this term might be 18 months and we're only three months into it, but is it really worth what I'm gonna spend as soon as I pay an hourly rate or even a flat rate or whatever the case is? So I'd love to have that conversation with you. You know, uh, you're gonna have to put, you're gonna have to I I'm just gonna tell Anthony Knight, you gotta put that on the calendar, man. We gotta, we gotta reach out again.

SPEAKER_02 30:27

So Yeah, we could spend we could spend, you know, we could spend hours on that.

SPEAKER_00 30:31

We're gonna book a few hours on that one, Anthony. Listen, you guys might fall asleep a couple times, but it's worth listening to. I'm gonna tell you right now. It's a marathon. We're gonna have to parts. We can do that in parts. We can do this the bankruptcy series with Nick. I like that. Yeah. So talk to me about your role in the NSR race. So you serve as legal uh advisor, and you're on the board of directors, uh, and it's made up of the board, it's made up of uh RTO owners and and CEOs and stuff. Uh it was founded in 2009 by Leland Ulrich, and 2009, when when we were talking about April and the things that I've done because I've gone through the Legends series, we're talking about the early 80s. So

Bankruptcy Basics For RTO Leases

SPEAKER_00 31:10

the NSRA is not really that old. So you know, I I had some questions in here on the later half, and I was like, wait a minute, but it hasn't been here as long as April has, it hasn't been here as long as some other things. So maybe that's why there isn't so much crossover, which we'll get into. But, you know, how did you get connected with the NSRA directly? So you got into the legal advisory role, so you you you obviously found it, and then they were like, Nick, come here, we like you that much. Like we we need this, we need somebody who knows something about bankruptcy. So, like, how did that come about? So you found rent to own and then NSRA, and then you're on the board. I mean, this is just like a rocket trajectory. How did this happen?

SPEAKER_02 31:49

Well, I uh so I was uh I was a member of the advisory board, which was just uh, you know, trying to help them steer steer through the all the issues that they deal with. But now I'm just uh general counsel to the board. So I'm not actually a board member, uh, but I I advise the board. And you know, it's just years of relationship building and uh going to meetings and uh attending their events, going to an April event, and you just uh develop those relationships and um work with people that you know and trust and who who come to know and trust you. And so we had a uh at some point early on there was um there was an attorney involved that that was helping the board some and uh eventually uh I I was able to to uh start doing that as well and and I took took over that position and became counsel to the uh to the board of directors and it's been wonderful. It's just it's made up of such good people, um you know that are that are passionate about this industry and about their sheds. And um it's been a it's been a great process and a great learning experience, honestly. Um and uh they're they're just they're just great people, happy to be a part of uh we call ourselves, we kind of leech on to the mothership of April. You know, we're we're sort of uh underneath that big umbrella, and um you know it's just been a fun, fun experience.

SPEAKER_00 33:31

Well, I want to get to know the shed guys better. I'd love to see a lot more of you at the April events. I actually wanted to get with you at some point because I actually want to see if I can make it to some of the shed events just to be involved in that because the RTO show covers everything. So this year I made a promise myself one of the business plans that I came up with earlier this year was not only is it going to be the traditional rent to own, it's gonna be the tire and wheel, it's gonna be the shed, and we're gonna incorporate virtual rent to own. So that's what I'm working on this year to kind of start incorporating all that. And when I seen that you guys were there, I was like, oh my God, I this is something that I really don't know about. I'd like to know more about it. I think the listeners would too. So I definitely want to be a part of that. Now, I will not say that I've never listened to any other podcast about what's going on, but we shall not mention their name on here. But we will say that I'm very interested in finding out about it. And that's how I found out a little bit about what I did. And, you know, going forward, like I just want it to be all encompassed. I want to have all part of that. So I'm going to lean on you a little bit, if you don't mind, at some point in time to be like, hey, I got to get involved in those people. But is it safe to say like you're like, and and this is just for the listeners so that we can say that you're like the Ed Win of the NSRA?

SPEAKER_02 34:36

Is that kind of I I I can't I can't go there. I can there's there's no such thing as anybody being the Ed Win of something.

SPEAKER_00 34:45

Well we got some follow-up. Hey, listen, Dick, I'm just reading on here, man. There's a lot of weight on this paper. I think you're doing a great job so far. So I'm just gonna say that.

SPEAKER_02 34:53

Um Well, it's yeah, no, it's it's it's fun. It's fun, it's a fun job, and uh, you know, it's it's wonderful. But yeah, come come to come to an event.

SPEAKER_00 35:04

You never work a day in your life if you're doing what you love. That's true. But I will tell you, with that statement comes, you work a lot. Yeah, it might not feel like work, but you end up working a whole lot more. So way more. Way more, right? So is there anything coming up besides New York? Is there anything coming up on the legislative uh shelf there that you're going, hey, you know what? We need to pay attention to this on the shed side, or maybe even the traditional side, and go, this is probably something that you guys want to be aware of. I know you said something about West Virginia. Is there something coming up on the horizon that maybe somebody as a rental-owned dealer should be looking out for?

SPEAKER_02 35:34

You know, um I I try to stay abreast of uh all the changes and updates, and uh I get updates weekly on my in my email from my Lexus account and Gmail and Google. I set all these alerts. Um and when we were in DC, it was sort of refreshing because we uh didn't have anything on the federal side that we were really worried about. Um you mentioned the issue in New York, but other than than those things, there's not a whole lot of uh urgent pressure that that that I see that anything's barreling down or breathing down our necks, which is good. We like it that way. Um so I'm happy with where we are. Um I'm happy with uh there there's always some things we I would like to see cleaned up and you know state from state to state, but but it's staying on the offensive like we did in in DC, you know, and not having to play defense

Common Bankruptcy Mistakes And Deadlines

SPEAKER_02 36:40

so much. But uh so so no, I I'm I'm um I'm I'm happy. Now one thing that is sort of interesting that I see a lot of uh here lately is talk about rent to own housing. That has been kicked around a lot, and um and they use this term rent-to-owned housing. It's really not a rent to own transaction, it's something different. And I would like to see us distance ourselves, you know, at least on the shed side and and um from from people that are that are using that term and that are uh engaging in that. In fact, when we were in DC, uh a couple of legislative aides asked if this had to do with the housing bill that had that had passed lately, and we were like, no, this is totally different. So um, you know, it's not so much of a of a major issue, but something that I'm aware of because I just don't want it, I don't want to see that crossover and that you know, people getting confused about what what you know Apro clients and what NSRA shed builders are doing versus what somebody call calling a rent-owned housing market is doing.

SPEAKER_00 38:07

So, you know, a little bit behind the scenes, I probably get hit up once or twice a month by somebody who's looking up the keywords of rent to own, and they I get them all the time, and they'll be in the uh they'll be in the inbox, hey, we want to schedule a podcast, hey, we want to do this. Guys, I I we don't do the same thing. I'm like, and I tell them all the time, I can tell you didn't go to the website because we don't do the same thing, it's just not the same transaction. So I agree with you 100%. Um because I even looked into it, I looked into said, oh, this is not, I don't, I don't want anything to do with that. I don't want to, I don't want to muddy those waters.

SPEAKER_01 38:35

No.

SPEAKER_00 38:35

Um so I noticed the NSRA is working toward company certification and industry standards. Is that is is that from kind of what APRO has done and said, hey, these are the bylaws that we go by. This is how we expect you to kind of conduct yourself to be a member of APRO, so that's how you can expect them to be as a member of the NSRA. Like there's certain bylaws and things that we want you to do, certain way that you're gonna treat the customer, certain way that you that you treat, you know, certain instances, whether it be bankruptcy, whether it be your collection practices and stuff like that. Is that kind of the same?

SPEAKER_02 39:04

Yes, yes, I would say so. And uh, we adopted a code of ethics back um maybe last year or in the last 18 months. And really that was adopted um in large part with uh uh talking with uh Charles and and Apro. And let me just again say that Charles was really the driving a driving force in this collaboration and um how how great that is because we've seen on the shed side uh great teamwork between Apro and NSR and um and and how happy I am for that. And Charles has just uh been a driving force for that, which has been wonderful. And uh so yeah, we in fact after the APRO event in Omaha last year, I got with Charles and um and uh and used some of his slides for my for a sli for a talk I gave later. We borrowed, we borrowed, borrowed, we borrowed, we borrowed, uh with permission. But uh but yeah, so so what we're trying to do at NSRA is we've launched a membership uh campaign for shed dealers and shed manufacturers, rental companies. And um yeah, and part part of the idea behind that is you know, you we want to hold each other to a higher standard. We want to make sure that people who are members of the NSRA are agreeing to abide by these bylaws and these um, you know, code code of ethics that we're treating people the right way,

Nick’s Role With NSRA And APRO

SPEAKER_02 40:50

and that we you can stand out among um to to your customers as, hey, I'm a member of of the NSRA and I agree with all these things. We've so so that is that's been a driving force behind it, is just trying to be the uh you know the rising tide uh for the industry, and um and I think that's been a key part of it.

SPEAKER_00 41:15

I mean, I love it because it it really does, especially when you're going to DC on a federal level, to be able to say that for we're at we're representing the association, that if you are a part of the association, you have to fall within these guidelines. You have to collect right, you have to sell right, you have to disclose right, you have to make sure that you treat everybody with this certain type of understanding that hey, you are number one. We're not going to treat you secondary or or any less for being what you know in the situation that you're in, if you're in any situation or not. And uh I think that does stand out. Now, you know, we had talked a little bit earlier about getting you the bankruptcy uh talk uh at RTO World, uh which is happening in August of this year. But like, is there a shed RTO world for lack of a better term? Is there is there like a you know what you do in the NSRA for that?

SPEAKER_02 42:02

Yes, good good question. We're gonna have a um Shed event coming up in September. Uh we'll have the NSRA event, and uh that'll be in Knoxville. So it's I think it's off the top of my head, I think it's the week of the 20th or 21st in in Knoxville. Um yeah, that last year they put on a great event. Uh the board uh does it all. I mean, it's a it's a wonderful, you know, non-paid group of people that do it out of you know, love of the industry, and they they put on a they put on a fabulous event. And so we're we're we're rolling, we're rolling right now. I mean, we're only uh what about four months out. So uh gearing up for that.

SPEAKER_00 42:52

And uh I'm gonna do some homework, Anthony. We've got to figure this one out. I know that we're gonna be at RTO World. Um, I'm dragging Anthony along with me. We're gonna do some stuff over there. I don't know if we'll make it together over that one, but I would love to see at least, you know, maybe I get one ticket. We'll we'll see, Anthony. We'll see how good RTO World is. But uh, you know, I would love to be a part of it uh in some capacity as far as like you know seeing it and what is you know, any of the meetings or what happens. Now, I know that in RTO world for the traditional side, there are meetings ahead of time. Now, there's the legal council meeting, there's a woman's forum, and then you know, it goes into a day of of basic learning. You know, there there's that industry training, there's that, you know, that April, this is this is what we give back, right? So you have those meetings where this is how you sell, this is how you collect, this is how you do the back end, this is how you hire, this is how you maintain, this is leadership training and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_01 43:45

Right.

SPEAKER_00 43:46

And then after that, you you go into the hot show and you go into the sales event where the expo is, and you go and you buy stuff and you all have a good time. Is that kind of laid out the same way?

SPEAKER_02 43:56

It's similar. I mean, from year to year, some of the uh topics. And speakers change, and some years we may be more focused on uh because for the NSRA event, it's a one-day event. So some years it may be more focused on rent-to-on management companies and collections. Some years it may be more focused on uh building and manufacturing. And um, so um, you know, it it changes from year to year. We have a lot of a lot in the terms of the leadership world, uh wonderful uh speakers. You know, we've had uh astronauts, we've had uh Secret Service guys, and um yeah, really, really cool, powerful speakers. John Delaney came last year, and um uh you know, so so a lot lot of uh focus on on the leadership aspect of it. But yeah, and then um there's uh there's usually some nuts and bolts type breakout sessions. So we'll have a breakout session where we may have uh one group talking about uh software,

Industry Standards Code Of Ethics

SPEAKER_02 45:10

software companies and different different things like that. I'll do a legal uh update usually.

SPEAKER_00 45:17

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SPEAKER_02 46:06

We'll have um somebody doing marketing uh update or a marketing uh breakout, sales breakout, um, different things like that. There's also other events other over the year that um I've actually never been to. There's something called the shed hauler bash, which is where the sheds fun, right?

SPEAKER_00 46:30

I mean, just thinking about it, right?

SPEAKER_02 46:32

And I've not been, and I've gotta go. But these shed, the hauler guys get together and they put on a big event and uh get to show off all their uh toys and you know their big moving equipment and stuff. And I I think I think they have a big time, but I have not I've not been. So Pete, that may be something we need to uh tag along to.

SPEAKER_00 46:53

We I uh all right, we gotta we got a third party now. We need to go, we need to go. That's what he's saying. We need to go check out what's going on over there. I would I would love to see two two guys just with some sheds going down like the thing, and who's who hauls it faster, quicker, right? I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 47:06

It's sort of I I envision it as like those old uh you know, where we had the two guys up there doing the chainsaw and like who could cut the wood the fast. Right, right.

SPEAKER_00 47:15

It's like one of those. Who's gonna I'm looking for I'm looking forward. I would love to see it. I just hadn't hadn't gotten to it yet. So from your vantage point, how have these events changed a legal conversation in the shed RTO space? I mean, has the N do you feel like the N since its inception, has the NSRA really made a difference in the RTO industry as far as Shed? And can you really can you can you almost tangibly see like this is where it was? Now these bylaws are here, the code of ethics, this is what we do. They have a legal council, we're getting together, we're now taking place and part of some of the stuff that Apro does at LEGCCon. Like, is this is this a trail of breadcrumbs that you can see a like steady growth in the NSRA?

SPEAKER_02 48:00

Yeah, yeah, uh it is, and um we've gotten more and more buy-in and more and more membership. Um and then the the partnership with April has been great to help that as well. You know, we do a NSRA board meeting. Uh in two I guess we have two in-person board meetings a year, and one will take place at uh RTO World this year. So uh Charles has been been great to uh allow us to have some space there to have a board meeting. So we'll we'll all be down there. And uh you need to come come meet some of the other guys. But um yeah, and and then and and it you you've I've just seen it over the years grow from uh from a really sm you know close-knit small group to uh something that you know we're s we're in a a a much bigger space for our event now. Um you you see people from across the country that that come and um it it it feels like we we've we've made a difference in terms of um the quality of the of the product, the quality of the uh the contract, the quality of the uh

NSRA Events And What To Expect

SPEAKER_02 49:20

start to finish transaction, the relationship with the customers. It's just wonderful people that are a part of the NSRA, and I I can say that without without hesitation, that it really is great people and uh wonderful clients. So yeah, I think I think it's uh you know, we're certainly still growing, and uh we've got a a lot of momentum, and um so we'll we're we're gonna keep that at.

SPEAKER_00 49:49

Well, with the advent of the growth of the NSRA and way the way that April is and how Charles and yourself are kind of ushering those to help one another, do you see a crossover happening or more crossovers happening in the future between the NSRA and April and and us going there and the you know, some of some of the guys from the RTO shed industry coming to our events as well?

SPEAKER_02 50:12

Yes, yes. Um course I was in DC um this past uh April and um Justin Hosey came to uh the shed the shed event last year. Charles was uh was unable to make it, but he was he was planning to be there. He he something came up, he couldn't make it. But yeah, and uh and uh and we'll be at um at RTO World and um just continue to collaborate. In fact, we're we're working on a um uh a project with with Charles and Apro where we're doing our data collection um you know, sort of a um uh the state of the industry, I guess, for the shed for the shed side, which is something that the NSR has attempted to do in the past, but really it didn't it never quite got off the ground. Um you know, despite the the good intentions, the uh the product just wasn't wasn't what we needed. So um we are excited to be doing a a new industry survey this year, and that is uh as a partner through April, and we could not uh do it without them. And so they've been they've been gracious to do that because what it's gonna do is really help us all. I mean, we'll be able to feed the uh shed numbers, basically what we find out from the terms of the shed industry's uh growth and and numbers and feed it into the to the Apro numbers, which uh should give us a bigger overall picture of the industry.

SPEAKER_00 51:58

I think Nick's looking at my numbers. I think he's looking at my that's exactly what I was gonna ask you next. Um so I'm gonna I'm gonna change it up really, really quick and actually something a little different so it doesn't look like you've been reading my notes. But um as we go through this, I was I would tell you guys, listen, I I am I am so looking forward to kind of that crossover. I'm looking forward to be a part of of what's going on the shed side because it is new to me. I have done nothing but traditional RTO for the last 20 years. I am now in tire and wheel, and I can tell you I learned something new every single day. Uh, if you guys are new to listening to the show, please give me a call. Feel free to call me, talk to me, email me, and if you guys want to uh do a little

Industry Survey And Data Collaboration

SPEAKER_00 52:35

sponsorship, we're not gonna argue. Now, talking about that, what is the do you have any numbers as far as the scale of what you know the rent-to-owned shed site is now annually?

SPEAKER_02 52:46

It would be a total, total shot in the dark. Uh I have some ideas, but you know, I don't I don't know that I want to uh throw that out there. I don't have a totally wrong. I could be completely wrong. But I think I think it'll I think that it will show a um a decent percentage um in terms of the overall uh RTO industry. I think I think that I think that we'll add some numbers to the bottom line of what the uh of what you know APRO was able to put out on those legislative documents that we were able to pass out to the to the uh legislators and the and their aides. So yeah, I think we'll I think coming back next year, hopefully, we'll see we'll see sort of that the bigger overall picture of that.

SPEAKER_00 53:39

Well, you know, looking at it and and looking in my notes, because this is this is something that I I've really been curious about, being that I mean, technically we're cousins as far as industries go, um, you know, what has kept us from getting here until now? Like, why 2026? Well, how come this didn't happen years and years ago when we're talking about sharing resources or lobbying together or even cross-ref cross-referencing some of the same customers that we have? I mean, I would imagine that we're aimed for the same target demographic. I know that sheds probably don't do great in the city, but as far as the rural areas, I mean, we're targeting the same people. In your opinion, in your professional opinion, why is it why haven't we done this earlier?

SPEAKER_02 54:21

I I think the NSRA was so was so small, and and we were just such a you know little subset of of the overall industry. I mean, we had we had guys from the NSRA that are that were you know shed dealers going to April events in the past, um, but you know, it was just for their own individual businesses and to learn about rent to own in general. And um, you know, I think just as time goes on, we've um we've kind of grown up a little bit on the shed side. We've kind of grown up into the to be a a a bigger part of of the overall shed industry. And you know, we just uh have been able to I mean obviously Ed Ed came to our events in the past and uh did his did his speech and you know it's just we're we're basically operating separately and um but but part of the same deal and I just think over time uh you start to see um ways that we can work with each other better and it took it took uh some some vision from from Charles and the team too to uh just really help lay that found foundation and groundwork. And um, yeah, it just takes a little bit of time and effort to get that kicked off, and then you get a little trickle and it just continues to grow and grow. And I think that's just that's just the the nature of the of the process.

SPEAKER_00 56:03

Well, I will say uh, you know, I think it's getting together. I think I I see some crossroads coming up. I see

Why NSRA And APRO Align Now

SPEAKER_00 56:10

this is like in its infantile situation where it's not as big yet, but I think it's gonna get there. I love to be a part of that. I want to be on the front end of that because I really, really think that this is some integration that we should really do. I mean, I know guys like uh Dan Jobrak of of Data True who would probably love to have one of you guys sit down in front of him and he can explain what he does because it there's some greatness in there. I don't want to I don't want to steal any of his thunder, but if you guys ever reach out to Dan, tell him that the RTO show essentially it's it's a it's a customer program, it's a great program to be a part of. Um, you know, looking ahead and and and you know, as we as we start winding down and coming to an end, like you've built a practice around an industry where most attorneys have never really been a part of or or done at all, which sets you kind of apart. Um, do you ever have those conversations when they're like, hey, I, you know, I'm I'm a divorce attorney. Hey, I'm an I'm an injury guy. And you're like, I'm a rent-home guy. They're like, oh, wait a minute, wait a minute, we gotta we gotta stop and hear Nick's story.

SPEAKER_02 57:07

Yeah. Oh, yeah, absolutely. Um, yeah, I usually just say, uh, I'm a shed lawyer, you know, or something like that.

SPEAKER_00 57:16

Yeah, let's break it down in simple terms. I am a lawyer for sheds, and if your shed never needs legal representation, I will take care of you. I and and you know, I I remember when I first started and I did it, and and now I think it's a completely different story. When I even when I first started um and I talked to people about being in the rent-hown industry, I got a lot of looks and they just didn't know much about it. They they kind of had this idea or this moniker already stamped in their head, like this is the way it is, and and and this is what you guys do. And it's like, no, couldn't be farther from the truth. Let me explain this to you now. I don't feel like I need to explain as much more, but I do have a podcast, and maybe that is a you know, maybe that's part of it. But I try to explain it to everybody, like this is a needed industry, and we are everywhere. And I love the fact that I I don't love the fact that we're separate, but I love the fact that we're coming together now, and hopefully this is just the beginning of what we can do together. So, you know, I I I love that idea. I love that you're leading up the legal counsel, Nick. It's it's great that you're a part of this. Uh I love being able to connect with you on this level. Um just for sake of let's say that anybody needs your help, how would somebody find you?

SPEAKER_02 58:24

Well, I'm pretty easy to find. Uh I can I can uh I can be wherever you need me to be. No, I'm uh I'm in Jackson, Mississippi. I'm at Wilkins Patterson Law Firm. Um I'm the general counsel for NSRA, so you can you can find me in in any of those ways. Um and uh I'd be happy to share with you my my info. You can put it on there as well.

SPEAKER_00 58:48

So uh the NSRA does not have the NSR website alone. There is something else because I looked up NSRA and there was like five that came up. What is the website address again? It is the NSR. The NSRA. There you go. I think it's dot org. We are the RTO show podcast, so I totally understand. But we had we had to be different than some other guy out there in Russia who has that thing. I'm just telling you right now, buddy, mine is better than yours.

SPEAKER_02 59:14

So the uh the the other NSR out there is the National Street Rod Association.

SPEAKER_00 59:20

It is, it is, and there is actually one more, but uh so you can reach the NSRA at the nsra.com. Um, I've got Apro at Rto H Q.org. Uh, you know, you can it's it's Martindale and Hubbard. Um if you guys want to just check him out and see. He is really accredited, he is really one of those guys. RTO World 2026 coming up. Nick, I am so glad that you're gonna be a part of this. I am really looking forward. Maybe if I have an opportunity, that I will see you again in September. We'll see how that works out. Um, because I'd love to be a part of that and talk to you a little bit more. And if you guys have any questions for Nick and you don't know where he's at, you can contact the show at the R you know the RTO Showpodcast.com. You can hit me up at Pete at the RTO Showpodcast.com as well. You can hit me up on all the social medias. We've got Facebook and Instagram, LinkedIn, YouTube where you're gonna see this. Nick, I am so glad that you're on. Nick Girard, legal counsel for one of the best things that are coming our way right now, the NSRA. Thank you so much for being on the show. I appreciate you taking out your time to be on with us today.

Where To Find Nick And Wrap Up

SPEAKER_00 1:00:20

And I'm gonna tell you guys as always, get your collections low to get your sales high. Have a great one.