Peace Practices from the Front Lines

 Your nervous system can’t heal on leftovers of attention. In this thoughtful conversation, firefighter Hayne Griffin shares what it means to care for your well-being while carrying the demands of a high-stress profession. Together, we explore presence, resilience, and the practices that help us show up with a clear head, an open heart, and a little more peace. 

We talk about hobbies as real recovery, not “time off.” Hayne shares how mountain biking and rock climbing force him into the present moment in a way that feels like moving meditation, and why watercolor painting can be its own kind of reset when the weather or the season calls for something quieter. Along the way, we connect the dots between burnout, rest, breathwork (including box breathing), and the surprising power of doing one thing that fully holds your focus, whether that’s a trail ride, a yoga practice, a puzzle, or time in the garden.

We also go deeper on connection and digital wellness. Hayne explains how shared activities can build trust and vulnerability, especially for men, and he offers a metaphor you’ll probably steal: your phone can be a wood stove or a couch. Used with intention, it brings warmth and connection; used without boundaries, it can burn down the peace you’re trying to build.

To close, we reflect on pain and resilience, drawing from Hayne’s spiritual background and the idea that suffering can become a teacher when we stop running from it. If you’re looking for practical self-care, a healthier relationship with social media, and hobbies for mental health that actually work, this conversation is for you. Subscribe, share with a friend who needs a reset, and leave a review so more people can find Create Harmony.

Transcript

Welcome To Create Harmony

SPEAKER_01 0:02

Welcome back to the Create Harmony Podcast. Let me tell you what you're going to find here. In this space, we settle into an intentional rhythm, and it's one that helps us savor life's blessings and ground ourselves in gratitude. And today we get to expand that space a little wider. I'm going to be joined by a guest whose work and presence reflect much of what we value here at Create Harmony: connection, intention, and a deep respect for the rhythms that shape our lives. So wherever you are, settle in, take a breath, and join us for this conversation. Welcome back to the Create Harmony Podcast. We are this summer, we're really taking a look at some summer hobbies. And they don't have to be summer hobbies, they're hobbies. We're just talking about hobbies. And the reason we're doing that is because we're always trying to elevate the conversations around peacemaking and how to live a more peaceful and joyful life. And we believe that taking some time to rest and restore and recoup can be an important part of that process. So today we have a really great guest. I know you're going to love him. His name is Hane Griffin. And he is a firefighter by day, but also has tons of outdoor hobbies and all kinds of great things that we're going to talk about today. So welcome, Hane.

SPEAKER_00 1:32

Hey, thanks for having me, Sally. This is this is fun. I guess I'm a firefighter by day and night because we work, we work 24 hours.

SPEAKER_01 1:40

Firefighter. Yeah, lots of lots of different times.

Firehouse Life And Emotional Weight

SPEAKER_01 1:44

So I would love for you. Will you just before we get into your hobbies, will you just tell us a little bit about what the life of a firefighter is like?

SPEAKER_00 1:51

Absolutely. So um I have worked for the Astral Fire Department for 18 years now, and I had no fire, previous fire experience. Um when I got into it, I literally got into it thinking, oh, I'm gonna be doing this just for a few years because I had a business that I wanted to get off the ground. And I thought, well, this would be a nice little bridge to getting that going because we had a surprise pregnancy. Our daughter was conceived and about to be born, and we wanted to create some space to have more, you know, Erica at least have a couple of years with her. So that was the original idea. I went in it thinking, oh, I remember when I first said something about getting into firefighting, Erica, my wife, just she just laughed. She was like, oh, that's like police officer, you know, military soldier, this is just a boy's dream. Um, and I said, No, well, you know, people that encouraged me, we think it'd be a good fit with how you're wired. I got into it, I went through an eight-month academy, um, really loved it, made some lifelong friends. And then once I got into the fire service, when we, well, right before I rode my uh truck for the first time, we we graduated and the chief of the department kind of gave us a commission going on. And one of the things he said is he said, There's no other job where every day you go to work, um, you step into the worst day of somebody's life to make it better. And that resonated with me in a way that um it just made my heart kind of sing. And I was like, man, I haven't thought about it that way. I was just kind of looking like this as a stepping stone. And 18 years later, here I am still doing it. So we do work 24 hour shifts. Um, so we're there. I go in at 7 a.m. I come home, it's 7 a.m. the next morning. Wow. Sometimes we sleep at night, oftentimes we don't. I will say, as a as almost a 47-year-old doing this for 18 years, I'm getting a little tired of the the nights, but it's still a quality work, so I continue to do it. Um, the connections that you make, like the guys that I work with are always together. So um, in a sense, it's almost like we're an athletic sports team because we learn to work together. Uh, we know what each other's thinking. Um, my engineer, which is a fancy word for my driver, and my senior firefighter who rides the back, we've been together for a decade. And um, we almost don't have to talk to each other on calls. We know exactly what we're gonna do. So it's just super rewarding work. Um, you carry a lot of heavy stuff, you see a lot of heavy stuff. Um, we carry that together. I'm very intentional about us never burying things deep to talk about them, and then also very intentional about finding time, which we're gonna be talking about today. Um, whatever that looks like for people, whether it's a hobby or just what we're doing in that free time to decompress. Um, um, because whether you're a firefighter or you're in a business or you're a school teacher or you're a mom, whatever you're doing, the whole gamut, life is hard. And there's seasons where it's it's beautiful and it feels easier, and there's seasons where you're not sure if you can get to the next weekend. So, um, but yeah, that's kind of a real quick snapshot. So we do live together and we cook together. I mean, everything you see in the movies, the calls in the movies are a little exaggerated, but it's but as far as a firehouse life, um, we know each other's families, each other's kids. We hang out outside of work, we we spend a lot of time, we we we cook meals together, we we pull pranks on each other. All the stuff you see in the movies, that is firehouse culture.

SPEAKER_01 5:19

So that's awesome. One of the things you said that I really like, and it's sort of a bridge to the hobby discussion, is intentionality. We talk a lot about intentionality here in our conversations because we believe that being intentional, we don't get to control everything about life, but we do control what we focus on and what we are intentional about. That's really like the only thing we control in life. And we think that's an important point to be made to notice and recognize that you can be intentional about what where you put your focus.

SPEAKER_02 5:52

Absolutely.

Mountain Biking Climbing And Watercolor

SPEAKER_01 5:53

I know that you have a lot of outdoor hobbies. So just kind of give us an overview of what what are your favorite things to do in your time away from the firehouse.

SPEAKER_00 6:03

It's funny because this morning, preparing for this, I asked my wife, I was like, what would you say? Because I do a lot of different things. Well, what like what are your if you if if someone asked you what are Haynes' three hobbies? She said, This is what they are. She said, first is mountain biking. She said, that is without a doubt your hobby. She goes, second is rock climbing. So I'm a I'm a climber. I've climbed for a long, long time. And the these are two very dangerous, at least not, I mean, have some danger to them activities. And the third is I'm a watercolor painter, I'm a water watercolor painter, um, which is the complete opposite of of the other. And that's something that I picked up a few a few years ago. So um, and yeah, uh going back to the intention, I'm very intentional to create space for it. Even even my wife knows when when I am in space where she knows I need to disconnect, she'll look at me and say, You need to go ride your bike. Right. You need you need to make space to get on your bike and get away today. So um, and I think that intentional, just kind of circling back to that real quick, I think that in this culture, and I see so many people, I work with people this way, um, because of social media, because of entertainment, because of television, I'm not saying those are bad things to do with your leisure time, but but they they don't require any intention. It's real simple. It's just right in your pocket. It's just it's something that you can pop up. And and I know for myself, trying to be very intentional to say, okay, those are the those are the easy, that's the low-hanging fruit in my leisure time that I can just pop something on. I wouldn't really call it a hobby, but being intentional with your time to say, hey, I'm not gonna sit and and veg out all the time. I'm gonna do something with intentionality that I know is really healthy for me. Not just riding a bike is physically healthy for me, but it's actually mentally and spiritually healthy for me, which yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:54

I love that your description of, you know, it kind of raises the question of like, what what is a hobby? And I like that your answer to that. We didn't, I didn't ask you that question, but the the qu the answer is something that you can do that will lift your spirits, soothe your soul, you know, right, sometimes work your body and your mind, you know, just all of the things. I love that. So tell us a little bit about how you decide which of those things, like when you said your wife said you need to ride your bike. How is how do you know you don't need to do a watercolor painting?

SPEAKER_00 8:28

Right. Well, I usually uh I ironically, I usually watercolor paint when it's raining. When I actually actually can't ride your bike or rather, and when there's just a lot of water everywhere, I have a you know abundance of it falling from the sky. Um, so that's usually when I do that, also we'll often paint it, paint at night. And I don't paint nearly as much as I as I ride or or I climb. The riding for us, and I know that you, you know, because we're you and I are connected through through your brother, um, you know Black Mountain, and you know that's where I live and you know the area. So it is a it is a mountain biker's paradise, like the amount of trails we have, and it's just so easily accessible. We can we can jump in the car and we can be at these trails anywhere from five to 20 minutes. We have, I mean, almost a hundred miles of of trail to access. So that's that's easy. Climbing takes a little bit more intentionality, and climbing is something I always have to do with somebody else. Um, it's it's just too dangerous, in my opinion. I'm not gonna free solo. I'm not an Alex Honnold, or there's even guys that are really, really good that can use rope, they know how to use ropes alone. I just haven't given it that kind of time. So that's going to be something I'm doing joint with somebody.

Presence As Rest And Re-Creation

SPEAKER_00 9:36

Um, the reason why I love those those hobbies, and often why I I select those two, and I can do it with watercolor, um, is that when I am on the bike, when I'm on the rock, that's all I can think about. So, in the same way that we take vacations, say, hey, I'm gonna take a week's vacation, I'm gonna take two weeks, whatever that looks like. I know folks have different vacation schedules. The whole purpose of that is to leave your normal grind to get out of that space, um, and to renew. Or in the case of mountain biking, is recreation, which I'm hope I'm saying this right. Uh epitomology? Is that the word? I think sure. I think the epitome, which would be the history of a word, recreation is just re-creation. It's just re-re-creating yourself. So, which is the same as renewal. So where a vacation, let's just say to the beach, it pulls you out for a week, where you've left that space that you're always in. When I mountain bike, when I'm rock climbing, my my dog could have passed that morning. But when I'm 400 feet in the air and I'm climbing, I can't think about it. Uh it's it's not that I'm that I'm I'm escaping thinking about it, but whatever's going on in my life that's heavy, whatever's going on that requires my attention and that can often hyperfocus on, particularly in a culture where we're just so inundated with doing and accomplishing and moving forward, to do something that rips me out of it so quickly. Because when you're 200 feet in the air and you're making the next move to continue up, I'm not thinking about the report I need to do at work. I'm not thinking about the next task. All I'm thinking about is what's in front of me. And this it's the same thing going downhill on a mountain bike. I can just think about what's in front of me. So I think what's healthy about that is that it forces us to forces me to live in the present moment. I'm not thinking about the past, I'm not thinking about the future, I'm just thinking about what's right there in front of me.

SPEAKER_02 11:55

I love that.

SPEAKER_00 11:56

And I enjoy doing that. Um, it's just it's a practice. It's, it's, it's no different than in a sense of meditation. And I mean, it has its different nuances. But I'm I'm a meditation guy, I'm a yoga guy, I'm a big breath guy. And we even teach in the fire department when when people are struggling with something that's emotionally challenging, we teach them um box breathing. We teach them all these types of breath work where they're focusing on their breath. They are removing themselves from the situation that's in their mind just to create some space. So uh climbing and mountain biking, I love the activity, I love the movement. Um, there's obviously some level of danger to it. So I wouldn't say a lot of folks are like, well, I just have maybe listening to this. I'm just not gonna go climbing, or I'm just not gonna go. That's totally fine. My question would be what is something that you do or something that you would have interest in doing that may feel challenging, but you know that when you're participating in it, it will completely put you in the present moment. And that's what I love about particularly climbing and writing, is it just sucks me completely out. So I just all I can all I can think about is just the present.

SPEAKER_01 13:09

Yeah, that's a great well, and we've done some conversations around rest, which as a culture I don't think we're particularly skilled at. No. But we talked about the fact that there are so many different forms of rest, and that we as a culture sometimes think, okay, I'm gonna take a nap and then I'm gonna be fully rested. That's not gonna move us beyond burnout, that you sometimes need a different kind of rest than you're doing. This your description of that really seems like a form of rest to me. Absolutely. Rest, social rest, you know, all the things. And and I like that that hits on that. And I I have different hobbies from yours. Mine are not as I mean, not that many people want to get around have a conversation about jigsaw puzzles, I don't think.

SPEAKER_00 13:55

But I love it.

SPEAKER_01 13:57

But I do that, and it's the same time it's focusing on the puzzle. And sometimes doing the puzzle, I'm not having I'm not in the present moment so much, but I am distracted enough that my brain will not spin. I can think through at something more deeply and contemplatively because I have the puzzle in front of me. And so I love I loved your description of that.

SPEAKER_00 14:20

And and for me, I'm I can definitely paint and be thinking about other things, you know, it's it's because there's not a little bit of that uh danger factor that requires my full attention. But just like jigsaw puzzles, I can get so immersed in in the movement, so immersed in the in whatever I'm doing, that it does, it does take me, take me out of that space, which I just think is really really healthy. Um, and kind of piggybacking what you said about rest, like we all know, I mean, I mean, doctors say you need eight hours of rest a day. There's even a number assigned to it as far as our health. Um, you know, for those who are more spiritually inclined, I mean, we know, at least in the Christian tradition, like the divine said we there's a Sabbath. You need to take a day where you're not in the grind, you're not doing anything. So um I'd also want to be really uh I'm very aware that it's it's a privilege that I even have a hobby, even just a hobby, much less three that I get to enjoy. Because for so many people, they're just they're just trying to to keep food on the table, you know.

SPEAKER_01 15:30

Yeah, that's a great point.

SPEAKER_00 15:32

So I'm I'm I'm very grateful for that. Um, very, very grateful for that. Um, but yeah, I know for me, I need to go usually on two or three bike rides a week. I know that that puts me in really good space. Um, I know when I go for a climb, um, I need to spend a good three quarters of a day on the rock to really get in that sweet spot. And I know when I paint, and painting is just kind of almost like a pardon me, it's like a quickie. Painting is just it's just something to say, hey, I'm gonna sit down. This is gonna take me 30, 45 minutes, but it does give me something that is valuable to helping me reset. So right.

SPEAKER_01 16:11

I love that. And I and I think you're you made a great point about the fact that maybe we're gonna all have seasons of life where hobbies don't fit in as easily. And during those seasons, I mean, sometimes we have to come up with a little micro hobby if we can fit that in. Just tiny, we're all about like tiny little increments. If you can't fit in a you know, two weeks silent retreat, that's fine. Fit in three minutes of meditation.

SPEAKER_00 16:36

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 16:37

Because we are we're all gonna have seasons about that. So now I want to circle back to something you said a few minutes ago that the fact the way that Hain and I connected is that my brother lives in the Black Mountain area and he is very outdoorsy. And I told I told Hain right before we got on the recording that I sent my brother a text and said, I'm looking for somebody with some outdoor hobbies. Do you know anybody? And he texted back, Well, yeah. He's really into this the same as Hain. And he pointed me in Hain's direction. But before we started recording, you talked about the connection that you guys had formed through these hobbies. And I'd love for you to say a little bit more about that.

Friendship Built Through Shared Hobbies

SPEAKER_00 17:15

Absolutely. So Adam and I work very, we're very different professionally. Um, we do very different things. So he's in the he's in the in the real estate world, and I'm in the um first responder world. So very, very different. We met through a mutual friend who, through a real estate transaction that I was involved with, it was like, oh my gosh, like this dude, you guys are like carbon copies. Like you, you're gonna have this. This let us introduce you to your next great friend, um, which is basically what happened, which is wonderful. And where we really connected uh with cycling. And he and I, we there's something to about sharing that space with somebody else. My wife also rides, and she's been that's it's a newer hobby for her. There's something also about play and about being in those spaces and sharing that with someone, that it not only builds a really strong bond that I think is wonderful, what it also does is it just creates space for vulnerability and connection. And and that's something that um as Adam and I, um, your your brother, uh assume people when I say Adam, I don't understand what I'm talking about. That uh yeah, the Adam and I um I mean it's I I would say he's one of my dearest friends, and we've we've just shared so much together, so much life together. Um we we talk about our kid, our kids are really similar ages. So we talk about our our kids and parenting, and we talk about what we're struggling with, and we talk about all these different types of things that that create a level of in a healthy way, vulnerability that um has allowed us not only to get to know each other really well, but to build trust with each other. And and and those friendships um where you feel I have complete trust in this person, um, those are just special, special friendships. So um it also provides uh uh for you know, doing it with somebody else, having those things that we do, I think it provides space for really close connection with someone else.

SPEAKER_01 19:19

I love I love that you said that. And I think that I mean, I haven't experienced life as a man, but it it looks like to me that it that's a little harder to develop in the in a man's world, that many of the ways men connect don't inspire a lot of vulnerable vulnerability and disconnection. So you have anything to say about how to move in that direction, that would be great.

Why Men Open Up Sideways

SPEAKER_00 19:43

Yeah, you know, I think uh that's so rich what you said. So and I've had this conversation with multiple people. Um uh at least I can just speak for for my wife's experience. And I I don't want to be this is a general generalization, forgive me for if this is a stereotype, but for females, it's just easier to connect. Like you you can just sit down, you have that instant connection. Guys are different that way. It doesn't mean that that's universal, but if if guys have something to do, or like a hobby, like they're doing something together, or I say this all the time for the firehouse. Every single firehouse should have a fire pit in the back of the firehouse. There's something for dudes when they sit around a fire and they build a fire and they can sit and stare at that thing burning. They don't have to look at each other in the eye. They're they're not looking at each other's faces, they're just staring at a fire. They just start talking. They just start talking. And it's amazing the things that guys will will bring up and share. Um, my father-in-law talks about cigars. He had a cigar group, and they would get together every Friday afternoon and just sit around and light up cigars and talk for two or three hours. If you put those, it's true, he said it, it's so true. If you put those guys together and took the cigars away, it would be crickets. But you put, but you you put those cigars in their hands, they got something to fiddle with and something that they're burning. I mean, I guess it goes back to the primal thing with maybe boys burning trash in the yard. You burning, all of a sudden it just it creates this connection. And I think that that's how the hobby's been, you know, for Adam and I, even. It's we love bikes and we love riding. And and that's been this thing for us that we participate in, but it's allowed this really great connection. And I don't think that that's just unique to our gender, but I do think for guys it's very helpful.

SPEAKER_01 21:31

Yeah, I love that you

Phones As Wood Stove Or Couch

SPEAKER_01 21:33

talk about that. We talk a lot about the idea that as our culture has moved in the direction of it's a very device forward connection culture. And I mean, myself included, like I think devices are great. I think we should they're they add a lot of value. And two things can be true at the same time. And they move us to in the direction of a more agitated state. So I think all of these things that you're talking about. Or a step away from living in such an agitated mental state.

SPEAKER_00 22:06

Absolutely. Even you know, using devices and talking about intentionality. I said this to my children about multiple things. Um your phone, social media is just a thing. It's not good or bad. Right. It's just a thing. Fire is just a thing. And if you put fire in its proper context, the wood stove, it brings warmth and life. You can use social media in a way that actually brings connection with people you haven't seen. It's it's it's the context that you're putting in. But if I take the fire out of our wood stove and I put it on the couch, that's the wrong context. We're all running out of the house because it's about to burn down, it's gonna hurt us. And social media is very, very similar. It's like just how are you intentionally using it? And what are the spaces that are healthy for you? What are the spaces that are where's your cell phone's wood stove and where's your cell phone's couch?

SPEAKER_01 23:03

Oh, I love that. That's a great question. I'm gonna be asking myself that question a lot. Like, is this the wood, is this the wood stove or is this the couch?

SPEAKER_00 23:12

Yeah, and I'll be the first to say, I I'll be the first to say we use it in the wood stove a lot, but I catch myself every almost daily or even definitely multiple times a week. Oh my gosh, this I think I moved it to the couch right now. Let's snuff it out and let's put it back in its proper space.

SPEAKER_01 23:27

Right. And I think the more I allow my life to get agitated, the more I ramp it up and don't take time for those restorative hobbies.

SPEAKER_00 23:36

Right.

SPEAKER_01 23:36

The more I find that the device becomes the couch.

SPEAKER_00 23:40

No doubt about it. No doubt about it.

SPEAKER_01 23:43

So I've said a lot of times I am 10 times more likely to say yes to something when my schedule is overloaded. You know, that if I'm really, really busy, I'll be like, yep, sure, great idea.

SPEAKER_00 23:53

Yes, yes, yes.

SPEAKER_01 23:54

Slowing down a little bit, even a beat, and saying, Does that make sense for you? Is very that's what I need to do.

SPEAKER_00 24:03

Absolutely. And taking it, I mean, going back to our hobby, I love how these things are coming, you know, full circle. Being intentional to protect that time. I have literally said no many times to things that would earn me money, things that would um that my work has asked me to do extra. And I say no because I want to go ride my bike. I say no because I want to go hang out with Adam. I say no because I want to take my kids climbing. Um it's it's being very intentional to say, okay, um, I use the I'm a big metaphor. Obviously, we've talked about you've heard me use a lot of metaphors. I tell my kids and myself all the time, get in the balcony. So whatever's going on, metaphorically get in the balcony where you can see the big picture. And you know that you need to be intentional about certain things in your life. So let's see things from above in the balcony and then intentionally decide, you know, what obviously we got to go to work. There's certain things we have to do. But then being protective of our leisure time, being protective of those of that free time because it is so important to rest, whether we're in the bed or whether we're painting or doing a jigsaw puzzle or riding a bicycle.

SPEAKER_01 25:20

Yeah, I love, I love that you said it like that because I think that that is, you know, it's it's all about and very aligned with the conversations that we're always having here, which is try to find more ways to live peacefully. And I think I've told I've said this many, many, many times over the course of this podcast that the years ago I had an epiphany that I had to-do lists about all sorts of things. I wanted my life to be peaceful.

SPEAKER_02 25:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:47

I had to-do lists about all sorts of things, none of which related or aligned with me. All of them were about fitness or organization or family life or all the things that things we do, which are all good. But I was wanting something, more of something in my life and not putting much attention on it. And I think that's one of the ways in which we really want to elevate these conversations of how can you create a practice that's gonna invite that into your life. And I think it another point that I feel like you've made throughout this is sometimes it's gonna be hard to do that. That that you're you're gonna have days when you are when your device is more like the couch and you're gonna have to catch yourself and think, oh gosh, reset, you know, um, realign with that.

SPEAKER_00 26:31

So and that's okay. I mean that's why. Yeah, I think we can get down on ourselves and be like, oh man, I just I just doom scrolled for an hour. Like I I could have been doing a puzzle, or I, or I I could have, I could have had coffee with a friend, a friend, and to have the grace with ourselves to say, uh I called it, I'm gonna make myself more aware in the future. But hey, it is what it is. And we just we just move on.

SPEAKER_01 26:59

It's just part of the rhythm.

Choose Hobbies Without Right Or Wrong

SPEAKER_01 27:00

So I would love to hear if you have any advice for somebody considering some more hobby time. Is it is there any other piece of advice that you would have?

SPEAKER_00 27:10

Um, well, maybe this will entice people to kind of create more of that space. So we talked about being in the present, and um, and that's absolutely what what my hobbies have done for me. I think the other thing that that hobbies have done for me is that it is they have helped me get out of dualistic thinking. So what I mean by that is particularly in this culture, everything everything at some level is black and white. Like there's right, there's wrong, there's black, there's white. You do it this way, you don't do it this way. Um and something also for me about being in a hobby, and maybe this would help someone, is that is there is there something that you can do where there really is no right or wrong. It's uh you're not gonna jump in it and think, oh, and and we can definitely create that in those activities. Um I'll use biking as an example. You know, I'm not fast enough. Or oh, I didn't climb that fast enough, or I missed this, I mean I did that wrong. And to let go of that, to say, no, I'm just gonna go for a ride. I'm just gonna enjoy it for the pleasure of it. Or whether you're working a puzzle, oh my goodness, I can't believe I didn't see I'm doing this wrong. No, no, no. You're just participating in an activity, and the whole point also is to remove this dualistic mind of it has to be black, it has to be white, it has to be right or it's wrong. When I watercolor paint, uh one of the things I do is it's all abstract for the most part. It's like abstract landscapes. And what I love about it is there is no right or wrong way to do it. I'm just sending it. And sometimes it looks great, and sometimes it looks awful, like like this was a bad choice. I shouldn't have done that. But I don't look back on it and think, oh, I did that wrong. Or it's like, no, I just I just I did something and it just happened the way that it happened, and I enjoyed the time. I'm not gonna frame it and put it on the wall, but it was something that I participated in and I just kind of let it be what it was. And and I think when we are in in hobbies, and that could be something for anybody, whether it's I I'm I'm a yoga practitioner. When I first started doing yoga, I was so hell-bent on I gotta do the poses right, I gotta do this, oh, I can't do crow right now. Well, I can't I'm not any good at this, I don't want to do this anymore. To say, no, this is a journey, and there's no right or wrong. Just enjoy what you're doing. So for the listener, is there an activity that twofold? One will whatever you're doing will encourage you to just be in the present moment, to experience the present. It'll suck you out of whatever happened earlier in the day or whatever you're worried about in the future. It'll take you out of that space, which would create instant peace in in my heart. And then, secondly, is there something that I can get involved with just for the pure joy of doing it, with no expectation of doing it right, doing it perfect, that you can just enjoy it for what it is. And when Adam and I were a lot younger, we talked about, you know, we were riding and you wanted to do things certain ways, and and now we're in our late 40s and we're like, screw that. Let's just enjoy being outside and just enjoy nature and then enjoy the ride.

SPEAKER_01 30:37

Just get on the bike, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:39

Just get on the bike, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:40

Yeah, I think that's great, very wise advice. I feel like life is so much more nuanced than we than our media likes for us to think. We absolutely have tendency. Media has tendency to create strong and fast categories, uh, which are not real. And I think it's there are there is a lot more nuance. What I thought of when you were talking, one of my other hobbies is gardening. And that will definitely teach you gardening is a great teacher because you you can do all the things right and your plant can look amazing, or you do all the things right and your plant dies. And it's just a reminder that, like, okay, life is like that. Um that's what that made me think of when you were.

SPEAKER_00 31:19

Absolutely. And and to learn to accept when things go wrong, they go wrong.

SPEAKER_01 31:24

It's just okay. That's okay. You just start again. It's I mean, just like yoga. If it's not today, might you might not be feeling as limber or strong or whatever. You just have that day, and then the next day you might be amazing at it, you know.

SPEAKER_00 31:36

That's that's right. Yeah, yeah. Two two days ago, I was uh, what pose was I in? A frog. I can't I don't know all the the um the Hindu words, but I was in some pose. I did I did it on my my left side, and it was like, man, I felt great. I go to my right side, and I'm like, what is wrong? Like, I can't even, and four days ago I could do it, and today I can't.

SPEAKER_01 32:01

And just to say, okay, yeah, that's just today, that's a moment, and then we move on to the next moment, and tomorrow might be amazing. And the sun is gonna shine and the garden is gonna grow, or whatever it is. So I I love that piece of advice.

Federer’s Lesson On Letting Go

SPEAKER_00 32:16

There's a wonderful um commencement speech by Roger Federer. I'm not sure if you're familiar with Roger Federer, it was in 2024. Um, I can't remember, I think he was in Ivy League school, and he was given a commencement speech. But he talked about he talked about success and failure, which was it's really interesting and it's kind of gone viral now. But this was fascinating to me. He arguably one of the greatest tennis players in history. And he said, I won 80% of my matches, which is unbelievable. I mean, it's why he was so good. He said, Now, if you break that statistic down to how many points I won in my matches, I only won 56%.

SPEAKER_01 32:56

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 32:57

Which blew my mind.

SPEAKER_01 32:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:58

He said, So I won 80% of my matches, but I won only 50% of the 56% of the points in those matches. Yeah. So he goes, that's that's very thin. But what he talked about was mental fortitude, and he talked about letting go. And he said, so what I learned, and I thought this was beautiful, is that when I lost a point, the point's over. I didn't dwell on it anymore. The points, I lost it. That's fine. Um, and then when I won the point, I didn't dwell on it either.

SPEAKER_01 33:30

Also, the point's over.

SPEAKER_00 33:32

The point's over. Here's the next thing. And I think that that's what's beautiful about a great leisure activity or a hobby is to say, hey, I'm just moving through and I'm just gonna move to what's right right in front of me. Just the next thing. And for him, he had this super long career where he was very successful, was obviously a great athlete and worked really hard. But I think the mental space that he approached it, uh the the mental space that he used to approach what he did was is just such a valuable lesson. Um, with anything. Parenting. I mean, pick it parenting, work, yeah, hobbies, leisure.

SPEAKER_01 34:07

It's like hey, I mean, I'm a little bit older than you are, and so I can see especially as our parents, my parents are aging, and you know, you just have to approach that with absolutely not the best day, but then tomorrow might be better, and I'll just deal with what comes.

SPEAKER_00 34:22

Yeah, exactly. I love that.

SPEAKER_01 34:24

That's awesome. Well, Hain, thank you so much for sharing all these nuggets of wisdom.

SPEAKER_00 34:28

This has been conversation.

SPEAKER_01 34:31

I love it.

SPEAKER_00 34:31

I love it, I love it.

SPEAKER_01 34:32

So I can't wait. I'm just picturing all of our listeners hearing all this wisdom and getting out on their bikes or in their gardens or with their paints.

SPEAKER_00 34:42

Well, what what wisdom's there has come from the school of hard knocks without without a doubt. So as we were sharing earlier before we hit record, you know, we've I've there've been a lot of hard things that have happened in life, and and I've really chosen to rather than ignore the pain to press into it. And that's really helped create a lot of the space to to look at these moments that are more peaceful, these seasons of life that are easier to say, okay, um, how can I engage in these things in a in a more valuable way?

SPEAKER_01 35:12

I love that. Yeah, you did talk a little bit about your suffering being a learning point for

Suffering As Teacher And Redemption

SPEAKER_01 35:18

you. And I'd love it if you if you have anything else to say about that. I'm I I'd I'd love to hear it.

SPEAKER_00 35:22

Sure. I mean, you know, I um I came, I was I was raised in a very conservative Southern Christian, you know, background, which I love. Um, this is gonna sound really weird when I say this out loud to some listeners, but I mean this. I am a proud son of Christian evangelicalism. Now I know that there's a lot of things in Christian evangelicalism that were difficult. And I know that a lot of people were very wounded by it. And there's a lot of things I had to work through as well. I no longer classify myself as an evangelical, I still classify myself as um as a Christian, as someone that follows Christ, but I've also tried to open up my, well, I have to Eastern wisdom. So I've I've studied the I've studied the Dao Dejing. I have Buddhist friends that I I I listen to. Um, and one of the things that really stood out to me with Eastern mysticism is that suffering is a gift, pain is a gift. It's not something that we should run away from, it's not something that we should avoid at all cost, that it's actually our teacher. And that Richard Rohr says we we are transformed by either great pain or great love. And I think that's such a beautiful thing to say. But the way that usually what gets us that great love, if we allow it to, is to go through great pain. It sucks us completely out of this idea of we're in control, sucks us completely out of this idea of ego, um, or what I would call capital ego, which is very um uh uh unhealthy. That's that's my ego on the couch, not on the work stove. And then the lowercase ego, which is what keeps me from running red lights and actually catching my house on fire, you know, or eating healthy food, you know, self-preservation. Um, but but realizing, hey, these moments in life they're gonna inevitably come. And for me, it was you I was I was participating, participating in my hobby. I was in a really bad bike crash. I was I was injured um for a while. Uh, and then for my wife, who she's five years out of a metastatic breast cancer diagnosis and has done all the all the heavy lifting and is doing super well with these moments to say, okay, these things have come. How can these be my teacher? Because suffering's a teacher. And that's very, I honestly think Jesus is saying a lot of that too. It just kind of got lost.

SPEAKER_01 37:50

Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_00 37:51

It got kind of truncated. Well, this is a whole nother podcast, so I'm not gonna jump into that. But um, but uh that these these things that happen in our life can be our teachers. So really trying to pay attention to that. And when you do, you start to see that everything's kind of interconnected. You know, Rohr has this whole thing about how everything belongs. That's his he has a book written entitled Everything Belongs. He said, That's all I want on my tombstone. My tombstone should just say Father Richard Rohr with the dates, and then under it it just says everything belongs. And that um that everything does, that if we do believe in a redemptive universe, which I do, we do believe in a in a in a a redemptive divine being, that it's all being redeemed. And whether whether we go through a moment I'm just used America right now, where we've had seasons in our country's history of great growth, then seasons for me that feel like a big step backwards. That's the journey. It's two steps forward, one step back, two steps forward, one step back. And that step back is often what pushes us, pushes us forward. It all belongs. It all belongs somehow.

SPEAKER_01 39:05

I like that description of it. That's a very uh yeah, I I I think that's amazing that and I think it's important to note, like when you talked about your suffering, what I heard there was it's important what you're focusing on through that suffering process. Absolutely. Just like we've been saying, what you're focusing on. That's the only thing you really control.

SPEAKER_00 39:27

That's it. That's that's that's really it, you know, and and how you're interacting with it. Because if I'm really being honest, most things that are happening, I'm in not control of what's happening. It's just happening, but I am very much in control of how I respond to it, how I interact with it. Um, and I think that the value of rest and the value of engaging in our leisure time with hobbies is that is that it allows us to it it gives us healthier space to respond and to react to all the things that are that are going on.

SPEAKER_01 40:03

Yes, yes, for sure. I'm a big meditator also, and I always say in the seasons that I meditate more, it increases my mental agility. Absolutely. I'm able to have more mental agility when I am resting my brain in that way.

SPEAKER_00 40:17

So I'm more forgiving.

SPEAKER_01 40:19

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 40:20

Of myself. I'm more forgiving of Erica, my wife. I'm more forgiving of my kids, I'm more forgiving of my coworkers. You know, it's um because I'm just I've I've mentally gotten myself out of the fray.

SPEAKER_02 40:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:33

And and that's the value of leisure and hobbies, you know.

SPEAKER_01 40:37

Absolutely. Well, thank you again, Hane. I just this I feel like I could keep set talking all day long and coming up with a million wise things. I mean, I feel like I need to be writing things down as you're talking, but I'm gonna be listening back to this a whole, whole lot because you've you've really shared a lot of wisdom with us in such a humble and gentle way. And and that's been awesome.

SPEAKER_00 40:59

Thanks. You're making me blush. I appreciate that.

SPEAKER_01 41:02

Thank you. Thank you, thank you. I I think maybe we should get you back on another time and we could talk about some more stuff. We we talk all it sounds like there's a lot more we could talk about.

SPEAKER_00 41:10

So hey, let's let's do it. Just let me know.

SPEAKER_01 41:12

I would love it. I would love it. Well, thank you so much. We really appreciate it.

Peaceful Pathways Summer Box Details

SPEAKER_01 41:21

Hope you enjoyed our conversation today. Here at Create Harmony, we are committed to peacemaking. We are elevating conversations that help people refresh their lives and soothe their souls. And on that note, I need to remind you about our peaceful pathways box. Y'all, the summer box is here, and it is chopped full of playful summer goodness that you are not gonna want to miss. In each box, there's a link to five guided meditations, and some of the themes for summer are a walk through the farmer's market, running through the sprinkler in a playful way, or resting in the cool shade. And these meditations give you just enough things to keep your mind busy so that you can step away from your life and calm yourself. And also in each box, there are other fun good goodies that are provided by Petal and Pink Mental Wellness Boutique. So let me get you excited about what that is. What's in the summer box? What you will receive is a little mini watercoloring kit that is strawberry themed. You can just take a little time, do a little craft, it's calming and very peaceful. You'll also receive a summer garnish trio, and this is for your summer drinks. There's three little jars with three different flavors. You can add them to your water, make infused water, you can add them to your mocktails, you could put it in the cocktail, and it just elevates the moment a little bit and makes your summer drinks extra special. There's also in the box what we're calling a take-a-breath jar, and that is what that is. It's like a glass jar, it has a lid. You take the lid off, and there are wool balls in there that have a scent, a very calming scent. So anytime your life is just getting out of hand, you can get that jar, take the lid off, and just take some deep breaths and just breathe in that calming aroma. And it's just a way of aromatherapy and just relaxing your nervous system. So you could get a take-a-breath jar. And then the last thing you get are some little notes that have ladybugs on them. The envelopes have tomatoes, so they're very summery themed. You just need to jot a note to a friend. They're tiny, like about the size of a business card. So a quick little note that you can jot or drop it in a gift or something like that. Just a neat addition to all the goodness in that summer box. Now, I also want to tell you one thing about our summer box. We've been doing this as a subscription, so you had to subscribe for all of the other boxes. You don't have to do that now. You can just buy one box. If you want to just sample the summer box, you just buy that one box. And then if you like it, you could certainly subscribe and get one every quarter. But a subscription is not required. So just give it a try. Check it out, see what you think. I'm sure it is gonna bless your summer in more ways than you can imagine. If you want more information about that, you can go to mycreateharmony.com and look for Peaceful Pathways Box, and that's where you'll find it. And until next time, peace.