137: The Inner War That Keeps You Stuck in Porn Addiction | Why Grace Changes Everything (With Jonathan Daugherty)

Many men who want to overcome porn addiction assume the solution is simple: more discipline, more willpower, more control. If they could just be stronger, they believe they would finally stop watching porn and break free from the cycle of relapse. But pornography addiction is rarely just a battle of discipline. For most men, the deeper struggle is an inner war—a conflict between the man they want to become and the parts of themselves that seek relief, escape, and comfort.

In this episode, I sit down with Jonathan Daugherty, founder of Be Broken Ministries, to explore the deeper psychological and spiritual dynamics behind porn addiction and why so many men feel stuck even when they genuinely want to change. Jonathan has spent decades helping men and families navigate sex addiction recovery, porn addiction recovery, and healing from the shame cycle that drives addictive behavior. His work highlights something many recovery programs overlook: the transforming power of grace.

Together we unpack why willpower alone rarely leads to lasting porn addiction recovery, how shame and secrecy fuel the addiction cycle, and why many men stay trapped in a pattern of trying harder while still feeling broken. If you’ve ever wondered why porn addiction keeps coming back, or why it can feel so difficult to stop watching porn even when you truly want to change, this conversation will help you see the struggle in a new way.

We discuss the emotional roots of porn addiction and how the brain’s reward system becomes wired to seek relief through stimulation. We also explore how shame strengthens compulsive behavior and how honesty, community, and grace begin dismantling the cycle. When men understand the psychological and spiritual forces at play, recovery stops being about punishing themselves and starts becoming about rebuilding integrity, identity, and connection.

This conversation isn’t just about quitting pornography. It’s about becoming whole again—learning how to live with honesty, integrity, and purpose so the inner war that once drove addiction finally begins to settle.

Interested in checking out more of Jonathan's work?
Click here: https://www.bebroken.org/

Link to Blog Article for this Episode

For a complete collection of all recovery tools and training, visit nomoredesire.com/tools. This is your central hub for the free eBook, Workshop, The RAIL Method ™, online courses, No More Desire Brotherhood, and more — all designed to equip you with the practical strategies and deeper framework needed to break free from porn and build lasting freedom.

If you’re ready to build the mindset and lifestyle that lead to long-term freedom from porn addiction, apply for my 1-on-1 Porn Addiction Recovery Coaching Program. You'll receive weekly group coaching sessions, private community connection, online course lessons & applied exercises, and weekly deep-dive coaching sessions.

Transcript

Jake Kastleman (00:00.903)
Jonathan, welcome. It's awesome to have you on the show,

Jonathan Daugherty (00:04.376)
Thanks, Jake. I'm looking forward to the conversation.

Jake Kastleman (00:06.993)
Yeah, it's such a privilege. think there's so many great things you have to share with guys, so much hope that you have to offer, and so many messages that are just very, important for them to hear, especially these days. So I want to start off by helping people get to know you. Tell men a bit about your story, your personal journey, and all the way up to what you do for men and families now.

Jonathan Daugherty (00:33.848)
Yeah, sure. So I actually grew up most of my childhood in central Texas in a Christian home. So I would say that my childhood overall was kind of idyllic in the sense that I had a mother and father that genuinely loved each other. I had a mother and father who loved me and my sister very well.

They also loved Jesus and it was genuine. So there was a sense of authenticity that I was able to grow up in where I didn't see a lot of the, this is how my parents acted out there. And then at home, they were completely different. And yet, ironically, I learned how to live a double life. So in some ways, like to let people know that, you I think as human beings,

We have built-in brokenness, so it doesn't have to come from our parents or it doesn't have to come. It's like, hey, I got enough of my own brokenness that it was like I learned how to do some of these things on my own. That being said, I also don't want to make it sound like my parents were perfect and sinless and, you know, no problems there. But in terms of what I eventually got entangled in in terms of my sexual sin, that wasn't part of their story.

But I was introduced to porn when I was 12 years old by a friend. man, was, I was not expecting to see porn. And so it kind of shocked me. And when he introduced that to me, it was like, I had this weird experience of, I would call it a trauma experience. It was a trauma response because it was overwhelming to me. And simultaneously, I was feeling a sense of almost like nausea and guilt.

But at the same time, I was like, man, something is appealing to this. Like I feel an electricity in my body that I've never felt before. so porn started to become kind of my drug all throughout junior high and high school. When he introduced it to me at 12, I started kind of going down that path, but I was doing all of this secretly. It wasn't like I went home and said, mom, dad, guess what I saw today? And that's where...

Jonathan Daugherty (02:51.02)
The reason that didn't happen is because there were some disconnects between me and my parents in the sense that they had never told me about porn. They had never had any these conversations with me. I think part of it was because that was not part of their personal story. Another part of it was the generations that they grew up in that I think there were just certain things that were like topics that were either difficult, embarrassing, fearful, whatever.

that you just don't talk about it, right? So I picked up on that and it was like, okay, I just saw porn. I'm not going to go tell my parents, but man, I may not have told them about porn, but porn was certainly calling to me. throughout junior high and high school, this became kind of my secret drug. And Jake, this is really where I started to kind of learn how to construct a divided life. It was like, I was learning how to keep secrets. At the same time, not only just keep those secrets, but also

in order to an image that others would see of me, kind of a, well, just a facade that, okay, I'm going to make sure that in order to keep this secret, I'm going to make sure that people see me as the athlete, the, you know, the church goer, the good, just the good, you know, guy. And I did pretty good at that. And then I got into...

college and it wasn't just about porn anymore. Now I was actually crossing what we call the flesh barrier and I'm actually being sexual with other people. And this was a real hit to my own personal faith because again, I'd grown up in this Christian home and I knew at the very least where God had drawn the lines around sex being marriage. And so here I was now, I'm doing something that it's not just against the law of my faith, it was against the law of my own conscience because I really did

I believed in my Christian faith and it was like, wow, now I'm not even living up to my own standards of what I believe. So I like to say that because sometimes people think that when a person develops a full-blown porn or sex addiction, that it's like this gleeful journey into addiction. Like somehow by the time you're a porn or sex addict, you have...

Jonathan Daugherty (05:08.332)
you've so chosen that path that you're like, I'm so happy that I'm completely addicted to sex. And it's like, it's a lot more subtle than that. And by the time you realize that you are addicted, it's like there's a misery that comes with that. And so already in college, I was starting to feel kind of the weight of that misery of living this double life. And then I thought, you know, because I'd been raised in the church and it was like, hey, marriage is that sanctioned relationship.

I ended up getting married and I was just assuming, okay, all of this stuff in my past in terms of the sexual brokenness and all that, it's gonna go away. The pornography, all of those things. And it didn't. Which I was not only a little bit surprised by, but I was severely disappointed by that. Because I just thought, I kind of wanted this ring on my finger to be sort of like Lord of the Rings. Like you put this ring on your finger and magic happens, certain things just disappear and become invisible.

and it was like, no, it doesn't really work that way. In fact, what I would say is exactly what I would say is when I actually got married, it, only magnified some of those issues in my life. And yet I wasn't ready to actually deal with them because I didn't bring all of my secrets or I didn't share all of my secrets with my wife. And so there were still some things I got back into some porn, eventually got a computer, got on the internet. This is back in the

Jake Kastleman (06:06.333)
Yes, the one ring to rule them all. Yes.

Jonathan Daugherty (06:34.606)
mid-90s, so this is dating myself. And then eventually started using the internet to set up offline encounters. So it wasn't just about pornography anymore, even in my marriage. Now I'm actually being unfaithful with other people. This all came to a head in the summer of 1999 and everything came out and there's more than I can share here, but basically the short story is that when everything came out, my wife eventually left.

And she had no idea that her leaving would be the catalyst for me actually finally being broken over my addiction and actually being ready to not only really receive God's grace and forgiveness, but to actually start intentionally investing in recovery and actually going into a recovery journey.

And I think the reason that her leaving was a catalyst was because I'd kind of always pictured her as the strong one in a relationship, which was absolutely true. But I always kind of thought, well, that means she'll never leave. Like I'll always be able to be attached to her no matter what I do. And which is real foolish, again, self-centered thinking. There's like, yeah, I can be unfaithful. I can be this colossal jerk and sex addict and think somehow that she's just going to stick around. It's like, that's the pinnacle of foolish thinking.

Eventually when she did leave because I had those thoughts like she'd never leave I now had to face reality and when I faced reality it was very ugly. In fact that season of my life I was actually suicidal. Found out later I was clinically depressed, went on some medication just to help that as part of my recovery. But I started my recovery journey then and God really met me in a very

profound and personal way literally the day that my wife left, which is why we're going to talk about this is I absolutely believe that that all of recovery is founded on a grace foundation. Like everything that we do in our ministry, everything that was part of my recovery really had a grace foundation to it because there's no reason that God should have met me with anything other than judgment and you know the hellfire of damnation in that moment and yet

Jonathan Daugherty (08:53.974)
I was met with such kindness. In fact, I would say that, you know, it was as if God just crawled up next to me on the floor without a Bible verse, without some kind of condemnation or anything like that, but just like, I'm here. I'm here. And I mean, it was palpable. It was tangible. I could feel that He was with me. And I thought, okay, maybe a different way of living is possible because if God will meet me here, then maybe He's got something better for me.

And so that started kind of the exploration of recovery. I got connected with a great counselor, started getting into some groups and I started just, I started realizing that there is community out there. There is a tribe of men who are willing to say, yeah, me too. And let me tell you my story. Why don't you tell me yours? And I remember the first time I stepped into a support group where I was asked to share my story.

about out of panic attack, first of all, because I thought, I've never told anybody this, and here's a bunch of guys looking at me, and I told them, and nobody freaked out, nobody spontaneously combusted, you know, it was like, and then they reached out and they were like, you belong here, this is exactly where you need to be, and I thought, was like, I mean, this huge exhale of all the stress and all the shame and all the lies that.

You know, you're too broken, you're too gone. There's no possible way that, mean, Jonathan, all the things that you've done, I mean, not only do you deserve to not have recovery, you deserve to be in jail. Like, because there were some things that I did that were illegal as part of my, like, prostitutes and things like that that were part of my story. So I get on this recovery journey. My wife was actually getting some healing care that I didn't even know about because when she left, she said, I don't want to see you or speak to you ever again. And so

Jake Kastleman (10:34.451)
Thank

Jonathan Daugherty (10:46.902)
It was almost as if God was saying, let me get her to a safe place and I can take care of her. And Jonathan, I need you to just be 100 % totally focused on your recovery. And that's really what happened. And I tell guys to this day that if recovery is really going to be genuine in your life, it has to be between only three people. It has to be between, be between you and who's looking back at you in the mirror and God. It's like your motivation.

Jake Kastleman (11:15.549)
Hmm.

Jonathan Daugherty (11:17.112)
has to be that. If you have anything else, I'm going to do this because I want to save my marriage. I'm going to do this because I want my kids or my reputation or my job back or what it's like. All of those other things eventually will not sustain long term recovery. I think it's like every day you got to look in the mirror and go, who are you going to be today? And it's got to be between you and God and that person in the mirror. And thankfully God in his grace and mercy said, I'm going to just, I'm going to force you into that position.

I want to make sure everyone is out of your life so that that's all that you can focus on. And after nine months of separation, only by, again, the grace and miracle of God, my marriage was actually reconciled and we were restored. last year we actually celebrated our 30th anniversary. And we also have three adult children that came after we got back together. So it's really even a miracle that they exist.

And then just last year we had our first granddaughter. So it's just been really cool to see how God's grace was not just about me getting free from addiction, but it's like he has a lot of blessings on that journey as well. And I want to say that those are particulars to my story. I'm not saying that's the standard that happens in every single person's recovery that, your marriage will be saved, you'll have children. mean, that's not the point. The point is that I want to say that

there's good things that I would have never recognized or been able to appreciate if I had not gone through this recovery journey. And then out of that, about four years into my recovery, God really called me into full-time ministry with just three words. He said, I want you to tell your story. And I fought that for a while, for almost a year, because I was like, wait a second, I thought the whole point of recovery was getting away from my past, you know, get away from all that stuff. And I just, again,

I was reminded in that journey and in that process of how God's grace is not just about kindness, it's about remaking us into a completely different person. And part of that means he can take all this brokenness, all this ugliness, and say, what you meant for evil or for bad, I'm going to turn it and I'm going to use it for good.

Jonathan Daugherty (13:39.788)
And that's really how Be Broken Ministries got started in 2003. And so for last 23 years, I've been telling my story in hopes of trying to build a bridge, especially for other men, to be able to feel safe enough then to come into a recovery community and say, okay, here's my story. I guess I'll start this journey as well. Because hey, if a knucklehead and jerk like Jonathan can somehow be different than how he was,

then maybe there's hope for me to actually, you know, deal with my own addiction and not have to stay in the shame cycle and in the addictive pattern anymore. that's, believe it or not, even though that took a while, that's the thumbnail sketch of my life and story in ministry.

Jake Kastleman (14:25.363)
It's a beautiful story, man. It really is. And it's deeply inspired. There's, you know, if I'm looking down, it's because I'm writing down notes, not texting on my phone or scrolling social media or something like that. So I took multiple notes here and I, one of the things that you said that struck me is this kind of this feeling you had when you were living this double life of.

I think you said the law of my conscience, I that's how you put that, going against that. You know, I teach men integration and coherence, right, when it comes to their psychology and their nervous system. And if every part of you can't agree with something, then it's not according to truth and it's not according to love. And those things are of God, right? So whether you want to bring it back to...

religion and spirituality are down to neuroscience, I think it all comes back to the same truths. And we know that inside. I think we carry that truth inside of us. When it comes to something like addiction, know, some parts of us say, there's a total waste of my time and potential. You know, and other parts of us say, I want to be a great person and live this very meaningful life. This is not serving that. Other parts of us say, I want this, I'm excited about this. my gosh, I'm indulging in it.

and other parts of us are just in terror and horror at what's happening. So this is not integrated. It's not coherent. It's not whole. And I think God stands for holiness or wholeness, right? That's what he's all about. So such a good reflection. And one of the things that you mentioned, and we often talk about this with rock bottom experiences, is this brokenness that we all carry.

Then also when your wife left and blessedly she came back eventually after nine months, which is interesting. I don't know if you think of that as a rebirth process. It's like you were reborn, right? In nine months. So fitting, but why do you think it requires this brokenness, this recognition of brokenness to finally take that step for people?

Jonathan Daugherty (16:28.142)
Right exactly

Jonathan Daugherty (16:43.938)
Yeah, I think, again, for me, it comes back to grace because the only way that I can actually receive grace, not even just from God, but from anyone, is it requires humility. And there's an aspect to humility that is a brokenness. Getting back to what I mentioned about the law of my own conscience, I had to realize, forget about living up to God's standards. I'm a billion miles away from that. I can't even live up to my own.

And so I realized it's going to be a requirement that I receive grace from a power greater than me if I'm ever going to be transformed and changed. And so the idea of getting to a place where I have to admit I am powerless. I have tried. I've tried in my own ways, my own wisdom. And it's like, to your point, there's like, there's such incongruity in my thoughts, my spirit, my will, all of that, that it's like I am broken.

And so if I am going to get help, if I'm going to receive grace from another person or from God, I'm going to have to admit, hey, Jake, I don't know what I'm doing. Can you help me? And there's a humility in that that says, I'm admitting my brokenness. I'm admitting my struggle. I'm admitting my addiction. And if I keep trying to quote unquote, figure it out on my own, I won't have that brokenness. I won't have that humility that's necessary in order to step into authentic recovery community or into an authentic.

transformation journey. And so it's a requirement. If a person is trying to say, I can sort of keep control on my life while simultaneously saying, I'm going to be fully invested in recovery, it's like, I'm sorry, those things are at odds, to your point. There's an incongruity there. I'm going to mentally say that I'm totally in with recovery, but at my will, I'm going to say, I'm still going to control every single...

Jake Kastleman (18:32.371)
Mm-hmm.

Jonathan Daugherty (18:40.674)
I'm going to control what people know about me. I'm going to control the degree to which I confess my sins or confess my brokenness. It won't work.

Jake Kastleman (18:48.989)
Yes, I think that very much is this integration. You know, for me, again, I like to integrate philosophies and truths from multiple areas. You know, for instance, the Eastern and Western traditions, you know, we say surrender, right? In Christianity, surrender all my emotions, all my thoughts, everything that I am to Jesus Christ, right? And then in Buddhism, they say,

It's all mindfulness and self-awareness. Essentially everything that comes in, I allow it, I welcome it, it's okay for it to be here. I'm not going to resist or fight any of it. And that's very much a surrender process. And I think of this, when you talk about grace, you know, a lot of men hear grace and they assume it means

They assume it means lowering standards or excusing behavior. You've definitely described it a different way. How do you define grace in a way that actually produces change rather than avoiding change?

Jonathan Daugherty (19:54.594)
Yeah, grace is more about a value statement than it is about like, just keep living however you want. And what I mean by that is it's a value statement because it's essentially God saying, I know everything about you. I know the ways in which you failed, even your own conscience. And yet I'm still going to choose to want you, to love you, to care for you. That's grace. Grace by definition is undeserved.

or unearned kindness or favor. So if you think about it, there's already a standard built into grace. You can't have grace if there's not a standard because how can you have words like undeserved or unearned? It's like there's a standard there. So when essentially what grace is saying is when you haven't met the standard, when you have broken the law, so to speak, grace is going to come in and say, I'm going to give you something that you don't deserve because you have broken that standard.

And that's where it's a value statement because what God is saying is your life is worth my attention and my care even when you have broken the standard. When we think of grace only as like a pass, like, you know what, grace is just saying, you know, forget about it. It's like, well, then we don't understand that grace is attached to a standard. I think grace is much more powerful when we realize that I know the degree to which I have actually broken the standard and yet still.

there is love, there is kindness, there is care that is being shown to me. Because there is someone, God or maybe even another person in your life that says, I value you even above whether or not you are keeping the standard perfectly. And I mean, that started to blow my mind when I got into recovery. I I'd grown up in the church and yet I didn't really start to understand grace until I got into recovery. And by the way, that's been true for a lot of men that we've seen over the years that we've helped.

you know, churchgoers or whatever for most of their life. And then they really start to understand grace when they get into recovery because they started getting into community of other brothers who say, hey, listen, you belong here. Don't hide anything. Don't lie about your failures this last week. We're on a growth mission together. It's safe enough here to tell your full story. And it's like, what is that? That's grace because that's, that's other men that are saying your life and your recovery is worth more than whether or not you have failed this week.

Jonathan Daugherty (22:21.102)
And it shifts the focus because then you start realizing, I don't have to be so focused on where's the line of whether or not I'm going to fail this week. Because instead, I start to live more from that value proposition of my life is worth more than this law, more than this rule. And so why don't I start then living as someone whose life is more valuable than that?

And sometimes when guys keep their recovery only at like the not acting out, you know, measurement, they're not going to really experience transformation. They're not going to experience that grace, the fullness of like the value of their life. They're going to just still see their value only as whether or not I've acted out this week. And my goodness, Jake, our lives are worth way more than whether or not we've acted out this week. I mean, we have tremendous value. God proved that.

when Christ went to the cross because he's saying, that's how much your life is actually worth to me. And so there's a sense in which that's what grace means to me. And that's what we try to teach in our ministry is it's more of a value statement than it is about whether or not you can just keep doing what you're doing and just be like, it doesn't matter because quote unquote, you know, God forgives or God gives me grace. I would hope we can start recognizing our value from that grace that then we go, I'm made for things that are way better.

than anything addiction could offer. I'm even made for things that are way better than anything recovery could offer. And so it starts to put things, I think, in perspective overall.

Jake Kastleman (23:56.763)
Yes, I agree. It and takes me to, IFS and parts work as well, you know, and how guys will have these experiences when they go into their, call it the, the emotional mind. It's called by all sorts of names, but essentially going into the unconscious and realizing these belief systems and these burdens that we carry. And, know, they get in touch with once they dig through all that.

You know, we always inevitably find at the core, at the center, there is this grace that you're talking about. There's this unconditional love, you know, this calmness in the center that says, I love you and I'm here for you. I understand you. And whatever we bring forward into that, any kind of, you know, the cravings and the confusion and the fear and the shame and all of it, there's just this boundless space open.

for all of those feelings to come into. there is, yeah, no bounds to that. There's no bounds.

Jonathan Daugherty (24:57.026)
Now I think it is important to say here that this is, and this might sound weird, especially when guys are thinking about all the many ways in which they've acted out and hurt other people and how their addiction has just sort of controlled their life. I will say this that we're talking about right now is actually the most difficult part of recovery. Because the easy part, if I can put it, I'll put it in air quotes, the easy part,

is understanding like where the behavioral lines are in addiction. It's like, okay, I've done this behavior. I don't want to do that. And the harder thing getting back to your idea of kind of congruity among our entire self is that we can be talking about this right now. And there can be a lot of guys listening or watching this that are going, there's a mental ascent to what we're saying. Like cognitively they go, I totally understand. get it. My value is of infinite worth and all this kind of stuff.

Jake Kastleman (25:45.565)
Right. Yes.

Jake Kastleman (25:52.391)
Right. Yep.

Jonathan Daugherty (25:52.878)
But where their emotions and even their will and some of these other spirit even, where those things are, it's like there's a complete rejection of that because there's such deep woven shame lies that are down in the soul that this is where the hardest work comes because you have a guy that's still going to perform in recovery as if his worth is based on his performance. No matter how many times we say to him, no, no, no, it's grace.

your value is a consistent, it's a constant. It doesn't fluctuate whether or not you've done poorly or well this week. That can take years for a guy to really embrace that at the soul levels. I just want to say that because I don't want anybody to be hearing or watching this and thinking that, hey listen, just flip a switch. All of a sudden grace will make sense and it'll be down deep in your soul. It took me years. And you know what? It's still a struggle that I have today of really believing is

Do I believe the value statement that God has made about me? That's totally by grace, not based on how well I did today, but the fact that just because I'm a human being made in God's image, that I have infinite worth and value, and that that's why he cares for me, that's why he loves me. And I can receive that from other people who have that same disposition. So I just want to say that so that nobody thinks that this is going to be some kind of easy little flip the switch and it'll all make sense. But...

Jake Kastleman (27:17.777)
Yeah.

Jonathan Daugherty (27:18.944)
It's worth going on that journey to understand this definition of grace in order for there to be a much fuller richness to your recovery experience rather than just behavior modification.

Jake Kastleman (27:33.223)
Yes. And I, you know, I say that, healing is an emotional process, not a mental one. You could also say it's a spiritual, a spiritual process, not a conceptual one. Right. We can't just say, okay, as you say, I know grace exists. know God loves me unconditionally, therefore, okay, now I can be sober. Why am I not sober? Right. Why is this not happening? And it's because it has to be experiential. It has to be experienced. And that takes time. takes.

It takes practice. takes me going through different things that are difficult and painful. I think that, for me, you know, I always say, grace again, that, truth, that love that, well, that grace that's at the core of all of it is, is underneath all the burdens and the pains that we carry. And so we have to take time breaking open our heart, right? So actually delve into, okay, what are all the things that I feel and

I had this experience where I got angry. Well, part of me is judging me for that and saying I'm a terrible person because I got angry. And then there's the angry part that's filled with rage and vengeance. And then there's this kid in me that's just like, I can't believe this terrible thing that I did. And I hurt this person and I just feel like I'm so bad. And it's all those burdens and all that self judgment and all those things. If I can clear through all that, move through all that, then often what we see is

we breathe into what's underneath all of it. And it's like, there's the grace, there's God, there's that higher self.

Jonathan Daugherty (29:08.866)
And that's, and honestly, Jake, I think that's where there's a real dovetail between, you know, the, the spiritual and maybe in the theological side and the, psychology of, this, because I think a lot of times what people want to do is keep those in separate camps. And the reality is, is I, I'm telling my Christian friends all the time, listen, don't freak out about psychology. mean, all the ologies are just the study of whatever is the prefix.

So it's like, know, biology, the ologies are okay. It's just the study of that. So psychology is the study of the mind. Like how does the mind work? does, how do we, how do we think and process? and so it's important when you think about where patterns started, they're always going to have started in childhood. I'm not saying that we can't develop certain patterns later on, but the core ones, the ones that are probably most deeply rooted in whatever are.

brokenness is, whatever, especially if we've developed an addiction, those things are going to have patterns that were rooted in our childhood. And this is where psychology can help us tremendously. And it's not opposed to our theology. Generally speaking, like if people are honestly doing good work in psychology, they're going to recognize that so much of what they're finding only confirms spiritual truths and principles, proverbs, different kinds of things that we have. And so it's like,

hey, get a good counselor that really knows how to understand some of those patterns because there can be blockages. Like even when we were saying a minute ago, this idea of understanding grace at the deep level is probably the hardest thing. It's because there's a lot of patterns psychologically that prevent us from thinking these things. mean, for how many years does a person have to think, I am worthless? Before, that is an identity statement. Like that's not just, hey, I had this thought some.

at one point time because somebody told me, it's it's woven into their soul. I am worthless. And here we come along, Jake, and we say, guess what? You're beloved. Like, I mean, you're, you're, know, just, you're just intrinsically worth, you know, an infinite value. It's like, you're not going to just flip us. It's like, no, you've got years, decades of this shame identity statement and it's going to take some counseling. It might take some different techniques.

Jonathan Daugherty (31:25.068)
of trying to kind of open up your brain in certain ways to be able to repattern and refocus and heal. And so all of that I think is useful in the recovery space. And it's not antithetical to a Christian faith. In fact, I think it only confirms the idea of, know, Romans 12 talks about being transformed by the renewal of our minds. Well, guess what? think psychology can help us in that spiritual transformation of our minds.

Jake Kastleman (31:51.741)
Yes, and in fact, principles like confession, right? I mean, what do we do when we go to therapy or when we journal or when we emotionally regulate and we work through emotions, we're using principles of confession, you know? I bring forward everything I feel and what it's like and how it is and all of that. And I have someone there, right, in a room that's offering non-judgment, their openness, listening, questions.

We don't have to do that with a professional. They can teach us how to do that. So it's extremely helpful, but we can also do that on our own, right? And with God, we can do that in our closet. We can do that writing down. We can do it in prayer. We can do it in meditation. This is confession, right? And I think there's a reason that God teaches us that to us. And then he teaches us forgiveness, which is to give away. So if I can confess and bring forward all the garbage and the beliefs and all the pain and everything, then eventually

I can forgive myself, I can receive God's gift of forgiveness. It is, you carry all this pain and I'm here to free you of it, but you have to bring it forward, set it on the altar and offer it up. You have to do that. And then we can, as you say, our mind can be renewed, right? Which is, that's another, it's one of the definitions for repentance, I believe, renewal of the mind. So now I can change, right? I can repent, I can change.

because I've cleared that way and through God's grace, that way has been cleared, right? So it's all interlinked. It's not, as you say, I agree 100 % psychology and spirituality, religion, they all interconnect and it's beautiful.

Jonathan Daugherty (33:33.656)
Yeah, one of the words that we use most often in our ministry when we're talking about a man's recovery journey from sexual brokenness is we use this word integrity, which it has the idea of being integrated. And if you think about addiction, disintegrates us. I mentioned earlier about even my own story. What did I do? I learned how to live a double life. I was disintegrated. I had this whole part of my life that was completely secret and hidden.

Jake Kastleman (33:44.275)
Mm.

Yes.

Jonathan Daugherty (34:00.822)
And this other part that I would present, which was actually phony, it wasn't really the full thing. And so what recovery tries to do, and really I think what God's grace invites us into is saying, bring everything into the light because I want you to be an integrated person. want you to be, listen, your character, your demeanor, your speech, your whatever is not fractured based on where you are. It's like whether you're at home, you're at work, you're at church, you're in the community, you're in the grocery store, you are an integrated.

whole person, wherever you are. And let me tell you, I just want to give this little kind of nugget of hope, you know, I like to get ahead sometimes, is there is such peace in living as an integrated person. And so just want to put that out there for the guys that are listening and hearing and they can totally identify with maybe they're in a state where they're disintegrated right now. I understand the weight of that, just the agony, the chaos.

There's such confusion in living a disintegrated life. And there's such stress there too, because how many times do you have to go, okay, listen, I know I lied to this person over here, but they know that person. what if they, but what did I tell this person? I mean, it is just so chaotic and stressful. And when there's integration where you're saying, I'm not carrying any lies anymore. I'm not carrying any secrets. There's a, I'm not saying it's, it's without difficulty.

I mean life in its best form is going to have difficulties. But there's still a peace that's there because you know, I'm not trying to fool anybody. I'm not trying to hide from anyone. And so I just want to give that hope there that integrity is a life of peace, rest, and joy.

Jake Kastleman (35:46.055)
Yes. And I think it's, I love that, both the symbolism and, kind of the psychological and the spiritual end of that integration, that integrity that you're talking about. It's, it's when, when I can trust every part of me and every part of me can trust me, if that makes sense for thinking of ourselves and sub personalities there, right. That make up us, but that self trust is everything. And so

My wife can trust me, my kids can trust me, my friends can trust me, my neighbors can trust me, but what I drive home, what I think is so important and what's been so meaningful for me is can I trust myself? Like, can I feel within myself? I do feel I'm a good person. Like, I do feel like, you know, I'm happy about who I am and I don't have all this stuff to hide. That's, that right there is the peace of God. You know, that's what God wants for us, I think, you know?

Jonathan Daugherty (36:41.558)
Yeah, absolutely. Definitely.

Jake Kastleman (36:43.123)
Yeah, yeah. one of the things that I thought about, as you were talking about this concept of worthlessness that we can carry around, I think for me, for so much of my life, it wasn't until my almost mid-20s that I started to learn about shame. Maybe a little earlier, early 20s. I started to learn about shame. I started to learn about vulnerability. Brene Brown.

Her works were the first that I was introduced to as is the case for quite a few people these days. We're introduced to that from her, people of my generation, I should say. And what I came to understand is I had so many unconscious beliefs of shame. was so out of touch with my emotions and my own internal dialogue. It wasn't dialogue, it was just this feeling I carried around with myself all the time.

I'm not worthy of happiness. I'm not a good person. I can't do great things. I don't believe in myself. That's just how I felt. I just grew up feeling that way. And I think there's so much, as you say, this brokenness that we carry. My parents were good people. They did their very best, right? They had their flaws and like you say, their sins and different things, but there's so much I carried from just a very young age of that brokenness and putting it into words eventually and bringing that.

out then enabled me to bring that kind of darkness into the light and start to work through it. So many men are deeply ashamed, right, at their core, right, not just of what they've done, but who they believe that they are. And how does grace reshape a man's sense of worth and identity and recovery? We've been talking about this, but maybe have a little more to say on how that reshapes that sense.

Jonathan Daugherty (38:31.886)
Right.

Yeah, I'll say two things. One is kind of how we tend to form a lot of those, what we call shame lies or shame identity statements, and then how grace addresses that. think, especially for those of us who live in the Western world, I don't know where all of your listeners and viewers are, but so much of just the dynamic of the Western world. I think this is true worldwide, but it's really magnified in

you know, Europe and the United States is this idea that your worth is based on your performance. I mean, it is just everywhere that you look. mean, everything is on a scale of how well did you meet the mark, you know, whatever it may be. And that's so like ubiquitous and just ingrained in us from every angle of our lives that it's very easy then to kind of come up with a lot of the different shame identity statements that we have because we'll go, well, I didn't meet the mark. mean,

Jake Kastleman (39:13.299)
All right, yes.

Jonathan Daugherty (39:34.368)
One of my core shame lies was I've got to be perfect. Like, well, and, and how quickly do you then start having to hide who you really are? Because I'm not perfect. And yet that's why the image building, what we call like creating that facade, you're not creating an image that's flawed. You're saying, no, it's gotta be a perfect image. So that creates its own stress of its own. Now gotta, I gotta keep working on presenting myself as somebody who doesn't make mistakes, who's never wrong, whatever. And so.

Jake Kastleman (39:37.927)
All right, yeah, me too, yeah.

Jake Kastleman (40:02.461)
Yes.

Jonathan Daugherty (40:02.594)
that performance metric is so strong that that's, think, where a lot of those shame lies come from. So then the way grace addresses that, and this is why it's such a difficult thing, is because grace is trying to come in and remind us your life, even your very existence, is a gift to you. Like, you didn't create yourself. You had nothing to do with your birth. You had nothing to do with anything. And it's like, so even there,

Jake Kastleman (40:11.719)
Yes.

Jonathan Daugherty (40:32.286)
in just your ontology, just your being, God is basically saying to you, you are a gift. So your very existence is grace, not only to you, but just to creation. Like God said, wanted you to exist just out of my sheer love for you, I wanted you to exist. And so if we can start from that point and say, okay, I had nothing to do with my birth, I had nothing to do with my existence, that means that God is the one that thought it was worth me being alive.

Jake Kastleman (40:39.314)
Mm-hmm.

Jake Kastleman (41:01.139)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jonathan Daugherty (41:01.25)
like me existing. So right there, already Grace is saying, your life is a gift. You didn't earn it. You didn't do anything to create yourself. If we can then start kind of taking that a little bit further to the fullness of what that means in an identity statement. What that means is that from God's perspective, your life is worth His gaze, His attention, because

Your life already started in his mind. Like, Jake, Jake needs to exist. I mean, I've already determined he needs to exist. And because you exist, he's saying you're worth me looking at every single day. You're worth me paying attention to every single day. You are worth my attention every single day. And you didn't do anything to earn that. So that's where think Gray starts to then combat the idea that your value is on a performance scale. And again,

While these concepts, intellectually, may be somewhat easy to grasp, we do have to admit it takes a long time. Likely I would say it's a lifelong journey of having that really get down deep, but the more it can actually travel down into your soul, not where you're looking in the mirror in any kind of arrogant way, because again, what? Your life was a gift. You didn't earn it.

Jake Kastleman (42:25.075)
Mm.

Jonathan Daugherty (42:25.454)
So we don't look in the mirror and say, I'm awesome, I'm great, I'm wonderful, as if I created my wonder and my beauty and my amazement. No, it's like, I can look in the mirror and if I'm saying, I'm wonderful and I'm valuable, I'm saying that because I recognize I'm a gift, like that life was a gift. And so I'm saying those things with, at its base, an attitude of thanksgiving. So when I can look at myself and say, wow, I'm worth being alive, I'm worth existing.

Jake Kastleman (42:39.505)
Yes. Yes.

Jake Kastleman (42:47.965)
Mm-hmm.

Jonathan Daugherty (42:54.582)
Not because I'm great, but because God said so. Like he said, you're worth being alive. Then the way this practically starts working in recovery, you and I both know this, Jake, the more a person will start to garner a genuine mindset and attitude of gratefulness, their recovery accelerates exponentially. If we are again thinking that our

Jake Kastleman (42:59.568)
Mm-hmm.

Jonathan Daugherty (43:20.416)
Recovery on our worth is based on performance. We're gonna constantly even be stressed about how we're doing on our you know Acting out but if we start to realize my life as a gift my my identity my value is intrinsic I I don't have to stay on the performance yo-yo anymore Gratitude will start to build and the more grateful I become the more I start looking at everything in my life through the lens of gratitude I'm gonna be more joyful going to my weekly support group because it's not gonna be about

Jake Kastleman (43:45.235)
you

Jonathan Daugherty (43:49.656)
Hey, what can I, how can I leech off of them so that I don't act out? I'm to be more grateful going to my counselor because it's like there are, there is some brokenness in my thinking and I want to learn more about what I need to do. There's going to be more gratefulness in any relationship that you can continue to build. Even especially with those who are willing to forgive you for the ways that you've hurt them. Gratitude, gratitude, gratitude starts to grow. And all of that I believe is founded on grace and your understanding that your value.

was established by grace and not your performance. So I don't, a little bit of a long answer, but I don't know if that kind of makes sense for just how grace practically helps us combat those shame lies.

Jake Kastleman (44:30.599)
Yes, I think it's so powerful. think gratitude, I see gratitude and I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on this, but gratitude is, it's a form of love, right? It's love and gratitude are there. They're so intertwined. And when I can approach life with gratitude, I'm motivated. I feel purposeful. I want to live a good life. I want to do great things. We often, you know, egoically, we perceive it as, well, I will

Jonathan Daugherty (44:41.71)
you

Jake Kastleman (44:59.641)
I will perform, I will do great things, and then I'll feel like a good person, and then I'll finally feel like enough. And it's the opposite. We have to flip that around entirely on its head and say, no, I see the worth inside of me. As you say, my existence is a gift. Everything that I can do is a gift. Every single good I can do out in the world is a gift.

Now I'm motivated to go about doing that good. So the love and the gratitude comes first and then the positive actions come after, in our culture we flip that around.

Jonathan Daugherty (45:37.986)
Yeah, and I think it's important to recognize that everything about our addiction was built on a self-centeredness. You can build an addiction all on your own. Like, you don't need anyone else to build an addiction. All you need is yourself and your own desires out of control. But guess what you need to be grateful? You need relationship. The very act of gratitude is relational. Because what does it require, Jake? It means me saying thank you.

Jake Kastleman (45:44.765)
Right.

Jake Kastleman (46:00.595)
Mmm.

Jake Kastleman (46:06.631)
Thank you, all right.

Jonathan Daugherty (46:07.34)
Like I have to go outside of myself to have gratitude. So even at a very foundational level, the reason that gratitude is so important to recovery, not as like a formula or anything, but because it's changing your heart is you are shifting the paradigm from a very self-centered, I can do this all on my own and I will do it all on my own to saying, I need others and I can actually, I appreciate others who are in my life. I appreciate God in my life. I appreciate my brothers in recovery. I appreciate my family.

Jake Kastleman (46:11.283)
Hmm

Jonathan Daugherty (46:37.29)
And gratitude shifts the paradigm from being totally self-focused to saying, I actually am living a life in community. it only, gratitude only helps that cut to kind of flourish and grow because by definition, gratitude requires relationship. You can't, you can't internalize gratitude in the sense of like somehow quote unquote, thanking yourself. You're like, no, I have to recognize the

The gift of my life, the goodness of my life, all of that is from outside of me, not something from within.

Jake Kastleman (47:08.723)
Yes, and one of the things that I find beautiful to contemplate, because I'm somebody that, you know, I've studied different faiths and religions, I find beauty in each of them. you know, in Buddhism, they say, you come from everything, right? Everything that I am comes from everything else. So I can't take credit for anything that I am. And we're saying that as well in Christianity with God.

I don't think that those are different things. I think that they're interconnected because we believe in God, we believe he's the creator, he's created everything, therefore we've come from all that creation. And I think that one of the places that I got tripped up for years and many of the guys that I've spoken to get tripped up as well as, well, okay, so if I'm a gift and I'm supposed to be grateful for everything that I am and that I have all this intrinsic worth and I'm just enough, then what reason is there for me to do anything?

And we've talked about some of that, right? That the going about doing great things comes from the gratitude. One of the things that cleared it up for me, and I can't remember where I first heard this, but God gave me the gift and I cultivate the gift. It's up to me to take the responsibility to grow what I have, right? And there's parables for that, right? The parable of the talents.

Jonathan Daugherty (48:29.569)
yeah.

Jake Kastleman (48:31.559)
But that doesn't negate the original gifting, right? Without the original gifting, there's nothing to cultivate. And I think that's one of the secrets to happiness, I think.

Jonathan Daugherty (48:42.594)
Yeah, and I would say this, it's a gift that has a purpose that is not only valuable and good for you, but ultimately it's also good for others. You know, I go back to this idea that, you know, in the scriptures we're told that God is love. So like that's just part of it. He can't help it. he's just, in fact, I believe that was the impetus for creation at all, was just like this idea of just from God's own

Jake Kastleman (48:58.931)
Yeah.

Jonathan Daugherty (49:11.458)
being just this outpouring of I want to be creative. I want to share, you know, who I am. And so the idea is us being made in his image. The gift of life, the gift of your existence is not just for your own good. The idea of, you know, I get to enjoy all of this creation, but it's meant to be like, and you are to reflect that love of God. You're actually to multiply that love of God. And so therefore I look at

Jake Kastleman (49:17.571)
Mm, yeah, I love that. Yeah.

Jonathan Daugherty (49:41.31)
When I'm talking to guys about recovery and you know, they always want to know like what's the goal? you know, how and also how long will this take that she's the question they ask is I like to say, you know, actually the goal is an abundant life of love. Like, and they go, wait, that has nothing to do with my acting out as exactly, you know, it's like recovery is not meant to be an end in itself. Like in so many times they're looking at it as like.

Jake Kastleman (50:01.394)
Right.

Jonathan Daugherty (50:08.428)
And this is why sometimes I think guys get a little bit discouraged in recovery is because they've made recovery the goal. Like, like if I just stop acting out, that's the goal. And I'm like, no, you're made for more because of what we're talking about here as, gratitude builds, as grace reminds you of your value and your worth. You realize that you actually have a purpose that goes beyond just your own sobriety, your own character, your own quote unquote goodness. It's like.

Jake Kastleman (50:18.696)
Mm-hmm.

Jonathan Daugherty (50:38.754)
Man, it's supposed to be shared. In fact, the Bible also talks about how Jesus himself said it's better to give than to receive. So there's a different kind of economy in the way that God has made us where, again, we're in a consumeristic society. Everything's based on performance and all that. And so we're used to being trained on how do I take so I can have more? And what you learn, what I learned through recovery was, wow, it's how can

Jake Kastleman (50:49.853)
Mmm.

Jonathan Daugherty (51:07.512)
How can I be whole so that I can actually give to others? How can I be healthy and well enough so that I have something of value to share to others? Now let me tell you, there is a different economy of joy that happens when we're willing to give away all the good things that we received in our recovery because there's nothing like seeing another man's face light up when there's an insight or there's a breakthrough or there's healing. You go, wow, I got to witness that.

Jake Kastleman (51:34.013)
Mm-hmm.

Jonathan Daugherty (51:36.874)
And so your joy is multiplied, not just because you're sober, but because you're able to share your sobriety and what you've learned with somebody else and see them wake up to a whole new way of living. And you go, wow, that's 10 times better than just my own purity and sobriety.

Jake Kastleman (51:37.181)
Yes.

Jake Kastleman (51:52.295)
Yes. And when we, when we participate in other people's healing, we heal inside, you know, like you say, it's, it's not based on kind of this very brain logic way of thinking. It's a, as you say, a totally different economy, a completely different, different type of logic and goes beyond our, our, our finite understanding here. One of the things that I thought about, you know, story for me that was

very meaningful and experience I had was several months ago, was at a retreat and learning about recovery and having my own experiences with it and things was extremely powerful. And one of the phrases that was said there is, am God's beloved son and in me, he is well pleased. And I've been doing parts work in IFS and I do it pretty...

It's my bread and butter. do it every day. I've been doing it for years. And so I was getting in touch with that belief, right? And focusing on that. And I've talked about this on the podcast before, so I'll be a record for some people. But I was contemplating that and journaling about it in the morning. And I was doing what we talked about, which is, do I believe this conceptually and mentally, or do I really feel it? Do I really believe it at my core? And I found,

barriers there to that belief. And so I started to just welcome those forward, welcome them forward. And part of me said, what have I done to earn that? Why am I so special that I would be a beloved son? Why would God love me? What have I done to earn that love? And so I listened to that part of me and listened to this burdened belief and allowed that part-time to speak and appreciated that it was trying to earn my worth and trying to bring me feelings of worthiness in my life through its own.

egoic methods and appreciating where it's coming from and getting down deep into some of the fears and the feelings of shame and all that and just working through it over probably 20 minutes. And I came to just this coherence and this feeling of why does God love me like that? Just because it's who he is and

Jake Kastleman (54:17.671)
Very distinctly I felt because I want you to share it with others. That's it. I'm just I just love you and I just want you to share it with other people. That's all

Jonathan Daugherty (54:24.632)
Yeah.

Jonathan Daugherty (54:29.206)
And sometimes that's really hard for people to receive, but it's one of those things. I like the fact that you said you sat in it for a good while because, you know, there've been a lot of guys in our ministry and I'm sure you've encountered them that they've maybe been part of church or religion growing up and they've heard God loves you. And there's a sense in which guys will almost

they'll just sort of jump past that and be like, hey, that's so trite. That's so basic. That's what's the real secret sauce? Like what's really going to change my life? And there have been plenty of times over the years where I've just sat with a guy and it'd be like, he, you know, he'll say his next phrase of what he's struggling with. God loves you. And then he'll say his next thing, what's going on? God loves you. And then it'd be like, you know, but why does God love you? God loves you. You know, it's just, and sometimes it's just like, you need that mantra over and over and over again.

It's like, I think about it this way, Jake. There's only one element in nature that will always win if given enough time, and that's water. And the Bible talks about being washed with the water of the Word. And I think there's a sense in which the Word that we need to hear more than anything is, God loves you. And it's like, let that drip and drip and drip and drip.

Jake Kastleman (55:36.967)
Mm-hmm.

Jonathan Daugherty (55:50.762)
And given enough time, and if you're in the right environments, what we like to call grace-based environments where you can keep wrestling, you can keep pondering, you can keep struggling, but you're just going to hear that God loves you. God loves you. God loves you. And it's not because you earn anything. It's not because you, you, you perform to the certain level. It's just like by his own will, he says, I love you. I mean, I'll, I'll admit that's what's changed my life. That's what's radically transformed my life because

By no means am I perfect man in my life now. Praise God, I'm not bound by any of those addictive behaviors anymore, but it certainly doesn't mean I'm perfect. And so I need that message just as much today as I needed 25 plus years ago when my journey started, but it's the message we all need over and over and over again.

Jake Kastleman (56:41.373)
Yeah, it's ongoing. It's an ongoing journey. It's not a one and done like, I get sober and then I can go back to the rest of my life. You know, it's just one day at a time. So good. One of the things that you share and kind of wrapping up before too long here, I wanted to ask about this transformation pathway. Okay, heal, grow, share. What does each of these phases look like in real life for someone who's been stuck in porn or sexual addiction?

Jonathan Daugherty (56:48.695)
Right. Right.

Jonathan Daugherty (57:12.044)
Yeah. So, yeah, we have this kind of model that we call the transformation pathway and we invite anybody who's come into our ministry to kind of step onto that path. whether it's a man who's in recovery from unwanted behaviors, or let's say a wife that's going to betrayal, trauma, healing, or, know, anybody. and it's a very simple three-stage pathway and it's healed gross share and it's not linear. so you can kind of come in at any point.

I will say that generally speaking, the foundation is going to be healing. Nobody typically comes in and says, Oh, I've done all my healing work and so I can get busy with growth or whatever. It's like, no, usually like we talked about earlier, there's a lot of stuff from childhood that just gets buried with just life and rhythms. And we need some, take some time to realize there could still be some unhealed wounds. could be some unforgiveness in your life. There could be some of these things that, that need deep healing. Maybe there's trauma, abuse, whatever it may be from your past.

And so healing lays the foundation of an understanding of grace and the worth of you and your recovery, whatever that needs to look like. And so healing is taking a deep dive and a look at those areas of your life and soul that need healing. And a lot of this then does lay that foundation for what we call identity work. you, I mean, healing is really about

coming to a place where you have a clear understanding of who you are and your worth. You're not really going to get to be able to experience growth and sharing if you don't have this sense of, my goodness, I'm beloved. I'm worth this journey. Like God has said, I'm worth going on this journey of love and recovery. And so then growth is really about starting to understand what are the ways in which I need to live life differently.

And growth is never done. In fact, we like to say that growth is the mission. if if which is sometimes difficult for guys to get their head around because they're like no no you got to tell me like in two years I'm gonna be done with it's like well that may be true according to let's say sobriety definitions or whatever meaning like okay, you're never gonna act out in those ways again possibly but

Jonathan Daugherty (59:32.27)
Goodness, growth, when you talk about that, relationally, emotionally, you know, all kinds of other ways, spiritually, growth is ongoing. And then what is the ultimate purpose of that healing and growth? It's so that I can then share. I can invite other people onto this transformation pathway, wherever they may be. And sharing is as simple as having a story to tell.

Like just being able to say, what, what are the steps and missteps that I've taken on this journey that would maybe benefit someone else who also needs that transformation pathway. We also like to say that again, it's not a linear journey. It's more of like, it's kind of like thinking you're, you're going on a hike in a national forest and there might, there might be lots of trails and you might be in a, in a section of trail where you're going, I'm working on healing right now. And sometimes that can feel like you're going in circles. That's okay.

Just keep moving, you know, and then eventually it might be like you're kind of in the growth area. And then you know what? There might be some point in your life where you go and a new wound just happened because guess what? We still get hurt as adults, right? So I need to go back through the healing process. So a lot of this is about learning a lot of the principles and the practices in each of those areas of what does it look like to heal in terms of emotionally and sometimes, relationally where maybe there's forgiveness needed.

Jake Kastleman (01:00:26.129)
Yes.

Jake Kastleman (01:00:34.682)
Mm, yeah.

Jonathan Daugherty (01:00:51.34)
And then growth, what does it look like to grow and mature emotionally, spiritually, relationally? And then how do I share that with others? And what we found is when people have a little bit of that kind of directional language, especially for men, it can help them feel like, okay, I'm, I'm actually able to kind of see the mile markers and see the progress that I'm making. Cause sometimes if it stays too nebulous of the idea of like, you know, just get better. It's like, wait a second.

What's the next step? Like I need to know what's the next step I need to take. And we use that language a lot. We're here to help people take their next best step to recovery and wholeness in Christ. so wherever they are on that pathway, we want to help them assess that and then take their next best step.

Jake Kastleman (01:01:37.725)
Yes, so good. I do want to round out with this, maybe one question, maybe two, I'm debating, but I do want to hear what you have to say on this. I have a lot of spouses that listen to this podcast and they're, you they have kids and they're going through their struggles trying to figure out how do I best support my spouse? How do I, what do I do for myself? Right. And so you talk about grace with boundaries.

What does that actually look like, especially when trust has been broken over and over again?

Jonathan Daugherty (01:02:13.132)
Yeah, so like I mentioned before, grace by definition doesn't exist without a standard, right? It's an undeserved kindness. So even when, let's say, there's a marriage where there's been betrayal by the husband and the wife is navigating that trauma healing, first of all, it's very important that both of them are getting the individual care that they need for their particular healing journey that they have. And then there's opportunity and need for what's going to go on in the marriage.

But one of those key elements is if they're working towards restoration, is that there does need to be boundaries. And the boundaries need to be established and primarily for the sake of the one who has felt the betrayal trauma. the degree to which that individual, that spouse feels safe is where those boundaries need to be placed. With the understanding that as you go through this healing and recovery journey,

there can be modifications and adjustments made to those boundaries as one goes forward. That does not negate the reality of grace in that process. In fact, I would actually argue that healthy boundaries are a grace. It is because what that spouse is saying is, the grace that I'm giving you is that I want to remain connected to you in this relationship.

Guess what, husband who is betrayed? You don't deserve that. That is a grace. The boundaries then are a grace because she's saying, this is where I will feel safest in being able to remain in connection with you. And so the husband that's betrayed needs to be able to receive that as a grace and what? Have gratitude grow. Thank you.

Jake Kastleman (01:03:46.077)
Hmm.

Jonathan Daugherty (01:04:08.034)
for still wanting to be part of my life after I have so grossly hurt you in the ways that I've hurt you. There needs to be that humility. so grace is not opposed to boundaries. Grace is, in fact, I'd say in many ways grace can be expressed through boundaries. And then as you navigate whatever that healing looks like, then you can have assessments on where those boundaries maybe can be adjusted and changed. The whole time, I want to encourage the husbands in those scenarios to definitely

Jake Kastleman (01:04:34.611)
Yes.

Jonathan Daugherty (01:04:37.774)
Be focused on humility and gratitude and certainly be intentional about what you are doing in your own recovery. The best healing that can occur is you getting busy about being a different man in your recovery. Like go on that healing journey of becoming a man of integrity. No longer be disintegrated, become a man of integrity that is whole throughout. Your life is in the light.

Jake Kastleman (01:05:06.919)
I love it. So good. think we'll wrap up with this question, Jonathan, and then you can tell people where they can find you and work with you. If someone is kind of in this discipline only model, know, white knuckling it, or I need to willpower my way through, this is the approach we can easily and naturally take, especially in, you know, if we're part of Western culture today. So how

What are a couple of simple things they can do or what would you suggest they adjust in order to begin living on this grace model instead?

Jonathan Daugherty (01:05:39.436)
Yeah, now this may sound counter to what I've said all the way through, but I'll explain it. Men, if you have been engaging in secret addictive behavior, mean, you've got a full blown addiction going on, recovery will be the hardest thing you will ever do. Recovery will require the greatest amount of effort that you have ever exerted. And they might say, wait a second, where's the grace-based approach there?

Jake Kastleman (01:06:06.707)
Where's the grace, right?

Jonathan Daugherty (01:06:08.0)
I love this quote from Dallas Willard. He was a spiritual formation guy. He says, grace is not opposed to effort. It's opposed to earning. So understand the difference there. You are going to have to work your butt off. I I've worked my butt off in recovery. I mean, it is hard work. But if any of that work is saying, I'm doing this in order to perform and earn points. I'm doing this to earn like the...

the accolades of other guys in my group, I'm doing this because I think I'm earning God's love, then your motivation is wrong. You will still have to do all of that work. Boundaries are necessary. You've got to work hard. You've got to resist temptation. You've to put yourself in scenarios where you can win when it comes to recovery and sobriety. But go there knowing, you know what? My life is a gift. Grace means that God is saying my very existence is worth being. And he's saying,

I'm worth this journey of transformation so that I don't have to live in this junk anymore. I don't have to live in this addiction anymore. And so if you start to have that sense of worth grow, not because you've earned anything or because somehow your recovery is going well and therefore you sort of deserve sobriety, you're going to be completely different in terms of your attitude around all of the hard work that you're going to have to do. You're not doing it to try to strive for earning. You're doing it because you're going, God, thank you that you didn't strike me dead.

Thank you that I still have life. I've got thank you for the resources and the tools and the environments that are available for me to actually get help. So gratitude grows and you'll work your butt off in a different way. You'll work your butt off with a smile on your face rather than just like, drudgery or just the idea of still those shame lies ringing in your head. So I don't know if that helps, but that's kind of the way I would approach it in terms of understanding. It's the different motivation that you have.

towards your work that grace makes a difference.

Jake Kastleman (01:08:05.873)
Yes, and I think it's, you know, I like to say to guys, they're like, okay, well, how much of the effort is mine? How much of the effort is God's? Where's this balance? And I say, you have agency, you are using that agency to make choices and God is with you every step of the way, the whole way, right? You do it through his grace, but you have to be the one to put the effort in. you're acting alongside God, you're doing it together.

Jonathan Daugherty (01:08:32.994)
Yeah. And, and also then say, then, then ask yourself, where did that agency come from? Isn't that that also a gift from God? Like, wow, okay. So it's still grace. So even my very will to make choices is a gift from God. So again, it all goes back to that idea of like, am I willing to acknowledge the gift of grace? Am I willing to, to have that humility to say, yeah, I'm not going to try to take credit.

Jake Kastleman (01:08:39.995)
Right, sure, sure.

you

Jonathan Daugherty (01:09:00.13)
for this because it really all boils down to God's undeserved kindness in my life. And that's what we mean by a grace-based approach.

Jake Kastleman (01:09:07.751)
Yeah, and that integrates right back with psychology, right? What a powerful way to view life and myself and recovery. It just, it empowers me in every way to view life that way. It's very good. So Jonathan, if somebody wants to work with you, get in touch with you, where should they go?

Jonathan Daugherty (01:09:23.959)
Absolutely.

Jonathan Daugherty (01:09:30.434)
Yeah, our website is just bebroken.org. And so we have all of our resources there for men, for wives, for families and churches. Those are our four main ministry areas.

Jake Kastleman (01:09:41.683)
Perfect. And I know we didn't touch on the churches today, but I know you have so much that you do in that area. So excellent resources there. And we'll put that in the show notes and make sure people can connect with you. thank you so much. Yeah. Thank you so much for coming on, Jonathan. Such a privilege. And I think this will help a lot of guys. So thank you.

Jonathan Daugherty (01:09:55.628)
Sounds good. Thanks, Jake.

Jonathan Daugherty (01:10:03.31)
Yeah, I enjoyed it. Thank you for having me.