Staying creative at a corporate giant: Omar Fahmi, Virgin Media O2 Business

We're stepping back into the world of big brand creativity! In this episode, Dave chats with Omar Fahmi, the creative mastermind behind Virgin Media O2 Business' in-house agency.

Ever wondered what it's like to steer creativity in a corporate giant? Omar pulls back the curtain on:

• The challenge of combining two distinct consumer brands - and adapting them for a business audience
• Building an agile and motivated in-house agency team
• Keeping the creative spark alive in a corporate environment
• The secret sauce behind his team's "family-like" culture (spoiler: it involves innovation days and breaking down silos)

Get the inside scoop on balancing short-term wins with long-term brand building, and learn how clear communication keeps this massive creative engine humming.

Whether you're a creative leader, senior marketer, or just curious about the inner workings of big tech creativity, this episode is packed with actionable insights and behind-the-scenes stories you won't want to miss.

Tune in for a dose of inspiration and a glimpse into the inner workings of in-house creative teams in the B2B tech world.

00:00 Welcome to the Change Makers

00:51 Introduction to Virgin Media O2

02:12 The Power of Brand Unification

04:01 Clientele and Market Focus

05:27 Building an In-House Creative Team

07:54 In-House vs. Agency Dynamics

14:10 Maintaining Brand Consistency

17:01 Innovation and Engagement Strategies

23:52 Marketing Team Dynamics

24:47 Innovation Day Activities

27:04 Showcasing Internal Work

31:44 Defining Success for the Team

36:45 Building a Creative Culture

39:39 Challenges and Opportunities in B2B

44:57 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

If you enjoy the chats then there are more ways to quench your thirst for creative inspiration in the world of B2B tech.

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Transcript

Hey there, how you doing? It's Dave Corlett here, the business director at the creative agency Shaped by. A big warm welcome to our podcast series, The Changemakers. This is our series all about creativity in B2B and we're at episode number 45. We're nearly at the big 5 0 guys. And we've got some amazing, amazing episodes to get us there.

First up is my conversation with the wonderful Omar Fahmi, who is the creative lead at Virgin Media O2 Business. Now for our lovely listeners and watchers over in the States and Europe. Hello, big warm welcome along to you. Uh, you guys may not be as familiar as we UK with two brands. Virgin Media and O2  who joined forces for this venture, uh, Virgin Media O2 business.

So Virgin Media, if you're not aware of those guys, you get your TV and internet and all that good stuff, um, from those guys over here. And O2 are all about mobile phone networks. So they're one of the biggest networks here in the UK. Um, they joined forces, their owners, Liberty Global and Telefonica respectively have entered into a 50/50 joint venture, Virgin Media, O2 Business, to serve business customers with amazing mobile and fixed connectivity. So, Omar has the very unenviable task of not only bringing together two very distinct consumer brands, but also very quite different consumer brands in a way.

Certainly we think of them over here anyway. They've done a great job to build those brands amongst the consumer kind of mindset over here. But they are quite different. So, first of all, they've come together. How do you fuse those two brands together in a way that's meaningful in a way that's meaning meaningful for business customers as well, obviously, because it's a slightly different mindset, but obviously, the people that they speak to will no doubt be aware, very familiar and aware of Virgin Media and O2. 

And also, how do you do that, which is the real crux of this conversation, actually, how do you do that within such a huge corporate machine? I mean, these companies employ tens of thousands of people. Um, and there's a lot of stakeholders as far as that's concerned. A lot of people that you have to keep on side as well with the whole kind of brand side of things from Virgin Media and O2.

Um, you know, people to report to and people to kind of raise your profile as a creative team internally, um, within Virgin Media O2 business itself. Um, so there's a lot of that going on. I mean, there's a lot of everything going on really. This is what the crux of the conversation is all about really. How do you build a team that does its best work and stays really, really creative in a business of that size, right?

Scale and complexity. So great, great conversation. I really, really enjoyed chatting with him as you'll hear and see. He's an amazing guy. Um, full of great stories, full of great insights. I'm sure there's a lot for you guys to take away from this conversation. So without further ado, let me introduce Omar Fahmi, the creative lead at Virgin Media O2 Business for episode number 45 of The Changemakers podcast. 

Here we go. Enjoy. 

  Hey, uh, my welcome to The Changemakers. How are you doing today? 

Hi, very well. Thank you. Thanks for having me.  

Absolute pleasure. Um, it's really refreshing actually to have a guest in this time zone, actually, because, you know, we've done 40 plus episodes of this podcast and a lot of them have been with guests over particularly in the States, which is amazing, you know, love our American friends, but it's actually really, really nice to be able to, Uh, schedule this in at a time that kind of works, works for us both a little bit better.

So I'm really, really pleased, not just for that to have you on, obviously it does help, but I'm really, really pleased because we've spoken a little bit about this topic and this subject in your background and your experience. And I think people are going to be super interested in, um, in the topic and what we're talking about today.

So.  Really, really keen to dive into all of that with you. Um, but I thought a good place to start just because, um, as I mentioned, we do have a bit of an American audience here  and they may not possibly know as much as we do about, um, Virgin Media, about O2 and about the combination of those two brands for the business unit that you work with.

So I was just wondering if we could start just by explaining a little bit about Virgin Media O2 business and what the organisation does.  

So, uh, essentially, I mean, people know Virgin Media as a telecoms company, um, in the UK, they generally provide a lot of, um, fixed line solutions, broadband for consumers.

So general Wi Fi and internet and for business sector, really network solutions. So it could be stuff for public sector, for small businesses, large businesses, essentially anything that's going to allow your staff to work.  better remotely. Um, it's that fixed networking solution that they offer, um, as well as sort of  physical products, um, and services.

And O2, I think rightly in the same vein support businesses, um, whether again, but, but more from a mobility perspective. So what I mean by that is mobile solutions, having your staff to connect via teams to office servers and really creating that kind of unified experience. So. Like how better that both of the companies have come together right in this partnership.

And so imagine going up to a business now and saying, well, look, we do amazing and tried and tested mobile and we do fantastic network. Um, solution. So now together, this partnership is super interesting. Um, because you know where we're now reaching out to businesses and we are, we have this focus on doing this full circle.

And although the businesses kind of did them, um,  in their own kind of  respect, it's now kind of a really sort of well tried and tested solution and service. So yeah, it's really good.  

Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, you know, As, as UK consumers, you know, I mean, I've been a Virgin Media customer. I've been an O2 customer.

I'm sure a lot of the businesses and a lot of the people within those businesses that you speak to and that you approach, um, and that you guys work with have that, that knowledge and that kind of affinity with the brands. Yeah. Um, I mean, Is that across, across the business side of things, is that something that really, really helps drive, um, you know, acquisition and drive conversations, you know, the fact that people know these two brands and they're so strong already from the consumer point of view.

Completely. I think even tapping into the brand strength from both brands, you know, people might have had better experiences with either or, and now kind of they're together. It's a, it's a no brainer, but I mean, you know, you're supporting huge infrastructure things. In policing where body cam can connect to the cars and then the connect to call centers and.

So it is, you do get, definitely get that, um,  that sense of security knowing that you have a brand that is really good at being supporting your staff on the streets as well as kind of in, in these call centers. So I think it is this unification, this kind of site really clean cycle is, is definitely something that's sellable to businesses. 

Yeah. Yeah. And, um, and you mentioned policing there. So what kind of clients, what kind of companies does Virgin Media 2 business typically work with? Is it public sector, private sector, small, large bit of everything? Is there kind of a certain area of specialism? 

So, so there's a, uh, a large push, uh, within public sector, um,  a lot of small businesses and large businesses.

I mean, the client list is massive. Um, but yeah, we've kind of, we've recently focused on looking at kind of healthcare. Yeah. And, and policing, I think, uh, not to drop any stats on you, uh, be fact checked, but, um,  we do a lot of, we have a lot of customers already in terms of the policing, uh, world.  But I think people are, you know, when we go to kind of justice events, people can really see the value and kind of what they're offering and they go, Oh, what you have all of this.

And it's all from one provider. I think now, because we have O2, you are  turning up kind of with your best foot forward and everyone had you, you have that real trust. So,  so yeah, it is, it is small businesses. It is public sector, healthcare, hospitals, care homes, um, and really kind of keeping, I think.  Kind of like a full blanket across the UK in terms of those services. 

Yeah. Yeah. Nice. Yeah. I mean, you know, that kind of jewel, that two pronged approach to two amazing brands, two brands that people know so well coming together must, must really kind of drive. Drive interest and drive conversations and, and then moving into, so in terms of your, your team at the business, um, Yeah.

What is the kind of, what's the makeup in terms of headcount, skillset, um, and what kind of projects do you typically work on? 

So,  five years ago when I started, there was a copywriter and I, and we kind of ran everything, we were, I'm ex Virgin side before the, before the, uh, the, uh,  So  it was a small team and we were kind of touching on everything and we were supporting agencies and it's completely flipped.

I mean, I was brought in to generate ideas and come up with concepts that would support campaigns internally. So imagine being inside, you know, the strategy, you know, the plan, you know, the focus. You know, where the business is going and all your decisions and when you're generating these ideas really support that, um, and, and, and, and same with the copywriter.

And in that time, we've grown a team within the creative team, I guess, is, is eight strong. So that's copywriters, um, videographers. Uh, senior designers, art workers, and, um, and animators and things like that. So having that capability in house has just allowed us to be more reactive, allowed us to, uh, from a cost saving perspective is, is a massive point here.

But,  but what's great is that I'm agency designer and I've only hired with that kind of, that, that lens and that mindset. So everyone I've met, I'm, I'm marking them kind of against what I know, which is the fast pace, high turnover.  really creative, um, an ability to react and, um, not churn. It's not like a sweatshop here, but, but it's, it's create good work and a high standard of work.

I think people have a perception of. Of in house brands being kind of slowing in there. They clock off and go, okay, we've got to do this now. And, um,  you know, I think the payoff definitely is a respective time in this company, um, But yeah, when we're on it and we're, we're, we're, we're creating work, we're creating agency level work, which, which people in the business can see. 

Yeah. Yeah. And so was that for a deliberate move on your part too? Because You know, in house teams can look, um, quite different from each other. Some in house teams are effectively, you know,  a creative leader, a couple of, um, you know, designers, maybe a copywriter. And then very reliant on agencies to come in and provide the More of the strategic or kind of be a partner, I suppose, and provide some of that strategic thinking and execution of support as well, where the skill sets don't quite blend.

Seems to me like you've gone down a slightly different route, which again is proving ever more popular these days, which is essentially the in house agency model. Is that something that you very deliberately tried to build 

there? We have tried to build that along with Jack, my number two. We've done it in a way that we still remain agile.

We haven't got a massive amount of people.  but enough to kind of take a campaign from idea through to fruition. Right. And I think that's really important to know that we use agencies to support us in production of assets, but, uh, and okay, when capacity is high and when there's a lot of projects flowing through, we do, we do use agencies.

I think agencies,  the days of them presenting ideas to us is gone. I mean, we would go through 20 rounds of iterations and we were just saying, well, are we not doing this work ourselves? Um, and I know the teams and I know their capabilities and, um, and we have a way more streamlined, um,  team in house where we can deliver something like that in a, in two weeks, rather than two months.

So I think, yeah, like it's, it's noticeable within the business, but don't get me wrong. The agencies do supply some things that and provide some. Um, stuff that we just don't do from,  um, you know, large scale detailed reports where they're going out and collecting research and get creating data, a lot of PR services and, and things like that.

I mean, we, again, we have an in house team for that, but they kind of touch base with these kinds of bigger agencies. Um, but yeah, I mean, again, the agencies we work with all come in and we meet them regularly and there's constant sort of brand workshops, uh, you know, the brand, like we mentioned is ever changing, um, especially with the merger. 

So  there's a need to create a level of consistency in everything we output. So we're, you know, we, we use monday. com and all our agencies are free to see. It's very transparent actually. So there's no one, um,  destroying one another within where it's all kind of just open and people feedbacking, Oh, actually let's do this.

Let's do this. So yeah, it's, it's. It's the right way to have this sort of agile in house creative team.  

Yeah, yeah. And I'm just trying to be really clear here. So is it the right way? Because this is something that you believe is the way that you and your team like to work best, or is it, is it  because of the size and scale of the Virgin Media O2 business?

Because let's not forget, this is a huge  organization. Um, it works better within that structure or is it a bit of both?  

Yeah, definitely a bit of both. I think having A team, um, internally of the size and not allowing it to kind of grow too big allows everyone to feel valued. Right? I think there's a thing where, oh, you know, I don't get to do this creative.

I'm not coming up with ideas. So we involve kind of everyone within the process. The team is small enough, but big enough. Like I said, to execute project, um, in house, but also everybody.  get stuck in and do the work they love. I think having this little team as well does create this family sense as well.

So, so where, you know, you walk into an office, um, on a Wednesday and there's rows of desks, it's all kind of hot desking layout in, in some of the offices. We've got quite a few, but, um,  yeah, you walk in and you, you know, you do feel like this little, uh, little group of people here actually against the world, you know, in this, in their own little kind of little bubble. 

So that was great. Like I said, it retains that family feel.  

Yeah. Yeah. Cause again, you know, um,  we at Shaped by work a lot with in house creative teams and it's really, really interesting looking at the dynamic between different in house teams, because some of them I kind of, we meet the team and we're thinking, I get the sense, especially with some of the other, some, maybe not necessarily the creative leaders that we work with, but some of the teams, some of the individuals, we sometimes get the sense that I get the sense that you would love to be doing the work that we're doing.

You know, the big ideas that we come up with. I just, I get this kind of just, just innate sense that I feel like you. That's something that you would really want to do. And then at other businesses, that's very much what the in house team and like you guys, that's what the team does. That's, they come in to do the work they really, really love and agencies can augment and supplement that and support. 

Ultimately it's, it's your ideas. I mean, I, uh, I think I feel I know where a lot of people would rather  do their work, but ultimately I suppose it's, it's horses for courses, isn't it? It's needs must at the end of the day. Um, and also, um, it, a lot depends and I think we'll definitely come onto this on the nature of the actual business itself and their willingness maybe to support the creative team in what they do and hire or support the creative leader in hiring and building the right team to do that kind of work.

So yeah, I think it's, um, it's just interesting from the outside looking in, but from your point of view, um, You know, I mean, actually just staying with that subject for a bit, um,  that again, getting into these conversations with, with in house creative leaders sometimes feels like, and especially the ones in, in your kind of mold, I suppose, that  have to, that are responsible for bringing these big ideas to the table.

Something that we find they kind of push back on a little bit is kind of like, you know, we're, we're, we're in the business, we're so deep inside it, which is amazing. And we get the chance to kind of really understand and see the effects that it has internally and externally. But what we lose is a bit of that outside perspective that maybe some agencies can bring to the table.

And this is sometimes when we do get brought in. It's like we need a bit of maybe a kind of a different lens on this. How do you keep your team kind of inspired, engaged, motivated, especially in a business of that size? 

So it's super interesting you pull that up.  We um,  maybe businesses have different opinions of things.

I think we were running this internal model or starting to grow a team when we were virgin. And when, you know, O2 came to the table, it was like an outsource model. So they were quite, um,  they were really excited. They were like, Oh my God, we can do this in house. And we had the, you know, there was that kind of excitement.

Uh, but at the same time they said, well, what about all our agencies? What happens to the ideas? What, so you guys create everything. And there was a nervousness attached to that excitement. Um, And I think that was an opportunity for us to go. Okay, we're right. We have to prove ourselves again. And, you know, I think as creatives, when leadership changes, you're constantly having to again, show who you are, prove them, you know, prove that you've got great work.

And I think I had a meeting early on within the merger and.  Someone quite high up, I'm not going to say any names, brought two boards to the table and they showed a Virgin board  of just a splash of all the artwork kind of that we've been working over the last two, three years. And they brought one for O2 and they looked at it and they asked me,  um, out of, you know, these two here, what do you, what do you feel is, you know, is the met, that's the major difference.

I say, well, Virgin is consistent and coherent and. you know, there's a specific style. And when you look at that brand, you look at it and you completely recognize what that brand is. And no, straight away. Oh, two was, um, being handled by multiple agencies across multiple regions with who have different takes on brand guidelines.

Brand guidelines are never specific enough that you're going to produce the same work. And I think they looked at that and said, well, we want this for this. And I said, okay, so they want that consistency. They want that voice. And by having a creative leader who's able to give.  that feedback and steer a piece of work across a hundred touch points from video, banners, ebooks, um, you know, events, whatever it is, it's a bit to look at that and go, ah, that's O2.

And so that one ask in that phone call made me think, okay, well, that's my mission. Because now that we've joined, there's going to be a third brand in play. There's Virgin Media Business, there's O2 Business, and there's Virgin Media O2 Business. So now it's, how do we create three identities? But also retain the existing strength within the O2 and Virgin brands because they come with a lot of heritage and history and to just go, okay, now we're just all going to focus on this, um, where they've got a lot of brand equity already built, you know what I mean?

I think it'd be a shame to kind of lose. So, so, yeah, although they're kind of toing and froing with this final brand state, and it's not clear at that moment, we do know that I am this guardian of these three big brands. We need to make sure that they all kind of, you know,  are shown in a really good light.

Um,  so as a result, then we've tasked our team with being able to kind of work, work really hard to get to know the brands, but also create this one tone of voice. And we constantly have kind of these morning calls. We call them Kermit calls, because I think there's a saying of, uh, is it eat the frog?  Which is to do the hardest project first.

So we have these calls in the morning and it's, um, we jump on it's 15 minutes. They're meant to be kind of really quick, agile meeting, see what else than everyone's scoped today, see if there's any overlap so we can create consistency within these brands. So one person's working on a video, one person's doing LinkedIn banners or whatever, and they go, ah, actually there's a still that matches that video clip that you've got from Getty.

You know, we should be using the same imagery here because it's the same campaign or it's the same kind of service we're promoting. So, so that's a great opportunity for that to all stay consistent and the work to look great and, and, and, and really look sort of stand out and have that kind of work class feel.

I think it's also,  we then kind of, how do we communicate that further and keep the team innovative and things like that, you know, I think we touched on it when we, we discussed kind of before this, we had, we run these innovation days, right. And these innovation days kind of form a massive part of. What marketing do and showcase the business. 

So we, we look at a particular topic or we try and get them to get into the minds of a designer and we want them to understand that we are always observing as designers, right? Like, although yeah, we're in these siloed things. And I mean, the ability to work from home has opened up a whole massive, um, opportunity for us to absorb a lot more.

So I would say that I would walk down the road and spot a yellow car and then a yellow roof of a house and this is, and although they're kind of just colors, they're things that are inputting into a bank of ideas that come later and go, Oh, actually, you know, that you can do this and this and this and this.

So everything is informed by  observation experience. And I think our design team are kind of all programmed to think that way. And, you know, when we're hiring people, the intention was that. We had very inspired and motivated people that could pick ideas and from anywhere. So, you know, these innovation days of why open wider to the company and, you know, you might get a hundred in attendance or 50, you know, we've hold them at brilliant, brilliant venues.

We have access to the O2 arena. So we have, you know, places like the O2 blue room where we've got a stage and screen and, you know, uh, myself and Jack and, uh, my manager, Carrie will manage, we'll, we'll run those sessions and we'll do like an idea session. And again, like these are things that I've picked up along my career.

So.  You know, just for example, you're sat there, there's 50 people, you give them an A3 piece of paper each, you get them to fold it four times, open it out, and you've got 30 squares front and back, and you've got a minute to generate an idea to solve a brief that we set. And they're like pure panic, you know, they're obviously out of their comfort zone, but just being able to do things like that really gets people in the mindset of like, oh my God, okay, these guys know how to generate ideas and ideas quickly.

So you're filling a box, the timer goes, and I shout next on the mic and they're like, and then they go next, and then you take your best idea after half an hour of doing that. And that's, you know, brain draining, you know, but you take your best idea. You put it to the side and then we'll put up on a wall and we'd have almost like a little critique later and go around and stick stickers on the best ideas.

And a session like that, that's a two hour session. You walk away with 50 new ideas for the business, depending on what the brief was or things like that, you know? So there's, we get them kind of  trained and kind of in, in our shoes. So they understand that we are constantly developing and how we, how we work, but also then we give opportunities for them to.

Um, watch and listen, and we do like a session on generative AI and, you know, how it's affecting businesses. I think  it's not so much looking at competition, in my opinion. It's more kind of looking at future technologies and how do we adopt those. I think you, you know, businesses can  stagnate and spend a lot of time going, Oh, what are they doing?

What are they doing? To be honest, no one's doing anything as good as Virgin is. I mean, in my humble opinion, the work coming out from other telecoms are a bit meh, especially in business. Right. So I think we have a massive opportunity for standout.  Um,  but yeah, it's exciting. I think it's, it's, it is how we kind of keep everybody engaged because they know that we're not doing things, um, normally in like, you know, there's an opportunity for every employee to have a voice. 

So, 

I mean, there's, there's a lot I want to unpick there. Um, not least, uh, you know, the opportunity, I mean, for, for, uh, uh, listeners outside the UK don't know the O2 arena. It's a huge, huge venue in London. Yeah.  Uh, conferences, everything in between, uh, incredible venue. And obviously that's with O2 being part of the Virgin Media O2 business brand, you guys get access to that, which sounds phenomenal.

And there's obviously other kind of spaces within the arena as well, that you can, like you said, the Blue Room, which sounds fantastic. But I just want to focus on this innovation day, um, concept, because, you know,  I think it's super, super interesting. I think a lot of the people that, that, um, listen to this podcast, a lot of people that we engage generally, um, are people who struggle to, um,  who struggle to,  what's the right word?

I don't know if this is the right phrase, but selling the value of The work that their team does and the work that their team wants to do because they know it will create inherent value in the longterm for the business. But obviously, as you know, a lot of B2B organizations in particular, very short term is they have to be, you know, they report quarterly figures, you know, that, that, that ultimately a lot of those, um, creative teams support marketing teams that support sales teams that drive pipeline and a lot of that kind of, um, objectives and KPIs are geared towards short term measurements.

So Trying to sell in the value of, and I know I'm specifically talking about kind of brand building, long term creativity, but ultimately kind of when it comes to things like we're talking about inherently, that's what it's all driving, really,  where some creative teams tend to struggle. So the concept, like having an innovation day for people outside of the creative team to come and effectively  be educated and play and play a role in, in your work is absolutely fantastic. 

I was wondering how often do you host them? How do you, um, kind of publicize them within the business and what kind of people come along to them as well? 

So we.  We host them with, I mean, essentially we've got to create an agenda first and we think, okay, what's useful. And,  you know, it's difficult because within the speed and time that we have to generate work,  we also have to set aside time to be able to do these innovation days and we understand the value is.

Firstly, more work internally. Um, and secondly, trust, right. And, um, confidence in the internal team. It also allows people when they are briefing our team to understand that there are bigger things and bigger opportunities other than a social post and,  you know, an ebook and what have you. So the traditional kind of norms of, Oh, we can create this and our customers are really engaged actually.

Well, look, there are other ways. What about Spotify? But about this and to get trying to push them to think, think beyond. So that's kind of the great opportunity there. And so coming up with the session takes time.  So we really do need to allocate that, um, that at that time to come up with these new ideas.

Um, the type of people that come are broader marketing teams. They're all, some of them are involved in marketing, but they wouldn't be necessarily involved in creative. And these are the individuals who are.  And it was important to kind of capture them and not go too broad within the business  because of a number of reasons.

One we wanted, I mean, they're the ones that are living and breathing and working with us and communicating with us daily. So they're the ones that need the trust. I think the people above them or outside of that don't really have much interaction with us and they, you know, a representative from sales might have.

An account manager who works in marketing, who is focused on producing content for them. So they'll always translate their ask to this individual team member who will, who will then put it into the studio. Um,  but yeah, I mean, there's, there's,  you know, we've invited them. Um, we usually publicize things like these on, on, um, on workplace and kind of other. 

Other forums within the business, you know, in person, sometimes there'll be a flyer in the marketing area and bits like that. But, but it's, you know, we do invite direct invitations to people who we know that would value from it. And it's like I said, sometimes 80 people or so, um, in terms of venues, we've tried a number of different venues, but.

Ever since we realized we can get access to all kind of the, the O2 arena and all of their places, I think there's a lot of really cool spaces that you can have breakout areas go off. I mean, the last session we did was to create a 30 second Spotify advert.  Um, and the, and it was, you know, they had to tail end with the brand and align and they had to, um,  they all got different kind of responses.

So one team had emotion and the other team had, um,  a really particular specific business, uh, tool that they were selling. And so they all kind of got these sheets and went off and they had to perform them on stage. And it was a bit, um,  What's the word or a bit homemade, but that was the idea. I mean, we had a mic, someone had to play, they find a backing track or a sound or audio on their phone and,  and then some people would speak and there was a number of microphones and as a group of set into fives, it was watching these performances and we filmed them.

We've got that amazing content. And again, for them, everyone left the innovation day being like, wow, I didn't think I would be filming a Spotify app. And then presenting that on stage saying, this is what you're going to do today. They're all faces.  I beg your pardon. And I know these people who aren't creative, these people are managing accounts and speaking to people within the public sector on a daily basis.

So really nice to push people out of their comfort zone and  such great feedback on these days. Um, it'd be great to do more of them. I think we have to, we do one a year. Um,  but there is, there's a requirement for more. We do a lot of drop in sessions. I wouldn't say they're more, they're not as innovative, but you know, we'd, we'd hire a room in the office when we're in Reading or, or, you know. 

Or Hammersmith or whatever. And people know where the creative team are all sat in one place and someone comes in and they get almost like a vibe. They get everyone sort of sat around talking about their project. And it's, you don't really get that on a call. You can't really sort of schedule a call with 20 people.

And you know, if someone walks in saying, Oh, look, we're doing this event and it's here and here and here, what are you thinking? It's, it's about sport related, but also it's for partners. And then everyone kind of chimes in and you get way more value from those sort of conversations. So.  So yeah, we're doing kind of what we can to get people within the business to understand that actually we're like a well oiled machine. 

It's amazing. It's such a good idea. Um, it's a really, really good idea and I'm sure it's sparking  thoughts and conversations from some of our listeners today. Um, I just wondered as well, uh, in terms of kind of communicating the value and the impact of the work that you and your team do. Yeah. Obviously the innovation days are great for kind of, um,  concepting and kind of getting people to understand the level of, of, of work and, and, uh, and intelligence and insight that goes into the work that you do.

But in terms of the output,  your work, um,  Do you, how do you kind of showcase and communicate that? Because I know that I think we, we spoke a little bit before, and I think you mentioned that quite a few people in business, um, kind of felt that didn't really know that it was an internal team doing that work.

They may be, maybe just assumed it was agencies or whatever kind of thing you start to finish. So do you show, do you get chances to showcase your team's work internally as well? 

So with with this, so with the innovation day, it always starts with the introduction of kind of who we are and a showreel and the showreel is what we've been doing over the last, well since we last saw them.

I think I think the innovation days are  two a year. It might be the last six months now thinking back to kind of the last showreel we did. It was a six month wrap up. Um, But yeah, they get an opportunity to see that. And then those are posted on our, on our social platforms, our company wide social platforms, and then, um, if there's a larger campaign, we get buy in from key stakeholders above who will post our work.

And, you know, they'll always say, thank you to this person and this person. Instead of just saying, thank you to the marketing team. It's quite nice because within these, these social platforms, you're able to tag individuals. So you, you know, you'd get tagged, you'd look and it'd be from someone. Really senior saying thank you for this thing.

It's launched today and you know guys check it out and please feedback or share it on linkedin and there is a It is cyclical in the sense that,  you know, people within the business will share our work. But, you know, recently  we thought we'd done, this is something called always on, and it's essentially an always on running campaign.

It's not a campaign as such, but it's, it's kind of who we are and what we're about. And it's called Power the Humans, right? And it's something that Jack and I came up with  based on loads of insight. And actually, you know, there's a huge focus at the moment from other businesses where they are Powering technology and enabling businesses to do this and this and this, but actually it's the people.

And I think a lot of people.  No, it's kind of obvious from insight that actually people want to feel empowered and and at the moment where a workforce is kind of working everywhere, the people are probably the most crucial part, right? So, you know, our networks are really powering the people. Um, and not, not a new message, but, but done in a way.

where we've got this really lovely new brand. We've got beautiful photography. Um, you know, we've taken a lot of, we've done a lot of shoots internally ourselves, as well as kind of used a mix of stock where it feels right. And Powering the Humans is this focus where it's, it's a clear message. It's, you know, About your businesses, people, right.

And by supporting that your businesses should feel, um, somewhat confident security and like relief that actually, you know, that we're creating networks and things that are going to serve your people best. So  with that, because it was kind of, uh, something that's always going to be kind of our, our, our voice and our message, we've created a video internally where we present it physically and almost like a talking heads and we cut to clips of other people within the business who are. 

Who are talking about that insight, who are talking about the strategy behind it, who are talking about the value add and actually how to support us and things like that. So it's, I think, and even in one of the clips, and I say, and this is something that we've created completely in house from copy illustration, photography, da da da, and just kind of by physically saying it.

Um,  and then we've released this video in Workplace and it's had massive uptake. And it's been shared, I think, in a company wide email by, by, by quite senior people. So, so that's one way kind of that we've just sort of started experimenting. Um, a couple of years ago, we ran a marketing newsletter and that did, did really well.

I think it was just the time dedicated to, to generate that, you know, there's only so much time you can push internally, but then the benefits do come back. And I think it's, it is finding that balance, right. Where you can  show off internally and say support us and this is what we're doing And this is the market team to build that credibility But also how much time do you dedicate to that and actually we've got work to do  so  So yeah,  

nice nice um, and  A kind of obvious question, really, but I think it'd be important again for people to understand this. 

What does, so, you know, your team, by the sound of it, creates amazing work and, um, and, and, you know,  something that you should be so, so proud of. What, what does ultimately, what does success look like for your, for your team? And actually for you as well as a leader of that team, like, um, are we talking, obviously, the happiness of your, um, of your team in general, but are you, would success for you, for instance, be the chance to grow your team, uh, and to bring new skillsets in?

What ultimately, what does success look like for your team? Yeah, yeah, 

no, no, it's a great question. I think it's, it's, it's a hard one because you could just plod along and be content, right? But are you striving for more because it's a business or is it an individual success and things like that? I think for me, So I'll go into kind of the successes of business  is the team that is always measurable, right?

In an agency land, it might be like, how many projects you've won? Yeah. Oh, we've won another big,  big retainer. It might be we're growing our team and it's expanding. We've got more clients in and things like that. I think from an in house team, it's.  recognition within the business. Um, I think in these high turnover businesses that are 12, 001 minute and 6, 000 the next, and there's loads of changes in mergers.

And you know, is it, are we producing work that people talk about within this company? Do people remember it? Um, and it is, I think it's less of a financial drive and more of a, um,  deeper emotional feeling of, of,  of pride, right? You want people to look at your work and remember and go, Oh, you guys did this.

Oh my God. And I think they're the little wins and the things you're constantly striving for. Like you said, for, for people in the business who don't know that it was made in house to realize that it was, um, but then when you can start competing with the big boys of agencies and you go to B2B marketing wards and you win gold and, you know, You start to do these things, which we've, which we've done.

Um, and we're sort of being put forward for other awards this year as well. I think there's that external recognition. I think it's like a nice to have, I think people understand that we are operating a design team that is worthy of. Agency level as well as kind of beyond and people knowing that actually we're just creative thinkers and we are solving Problems and we're doing it in a really elegant aesthetic way, you know, we're communicating great ideas I think and engaging with customers and I think again because it's b2b They are looking at engagement numbers and website visits and click throughs and actually if the numbers are high and the work's beautiful then like That's kind of the success.

Um, from a personal perspective, knowing that if I'm off  that day or I'm ill or whatever, and I see my team are all communicating and everyone's working in this like really succinct, lovely way. And yeah, there are things that they can't get done because I'm off and I'm not reviewing bits and, you know, I'm trying not to create this, this blocker, but, but being able to see the team, I know I always, as soon as I look at it, I glance in the WhatsApp and.

They're sharing from music to creative ads to things that have gone viral. And there is this, we've created this little gang who are all working really well and they all communicate really brilliantly. Um, and.  Yeah, I think I mentioned the word family before. I think that's like a sense of pride and success for me.

You've created a team that all feel like they all belong. They all respect and listen and add value, right? So it's not just kind of one way and I'm talking down to them. They all, they,  they make jokes at me as well as with me. Um, and I think, yeah, giving that vulnerability as a creative leader and knowing that you're not this like hierarchical, like I'm up here and you is actually, I think when I hired my number two, She went for the role that I have now, um, and  I had to backfill my position.

And I said to the senior guys, well, who's the person who ranked really well when we were having, you know, you told me it was down to two people, um, in the interview stage whilst I was kind of waiting to hear back. And they said, Oh, it was this, this person. And I said, Oh, okay, well, why, you know, would they be prepared to come in  under me, under my role?

And then I think I remember having that interview with that person and it not being awkward because I think openly at the get go, I said.  You did so well in the interview, you know, we ranked very similar. I feel like we could learn off each other and actually there's probably areas that I would love your support and  they know that they are coming with some sort of autonomy as well.

It's not just, um, no, no, no, it has to look like this, has to look like that. And sometimes there are occasions where we've got to kind of got to steer the creative, but  definitely  it's the success comes from the fact that we've mentored and the team are getting stronger and. They're, you know, areas where they were weaker now that they're getting, they're, they're improving.

So it's like, I think my success is kind of general. I think maybe that's, maybe in my person, I've got a lecturing background. They've done a lot of teaching on the communication master's degree and things like that. So I think where you work with 90 students and you almost, you take 90 and you create 10 brilliant designers out of that 90 is that same mentoring feeling of,  Of success.

So yeah, sorry to talk at you  

No, that's perfect. No, I think that's amazing And I really really think that there's a couple of things that jumped out at me there One is I think that that is a perfect. Um way of looking at an in house team, um from a creative point of view because  Again, you know, lots of conversations that we've had in the past on the podcast about hiring team building, uh, creating a culture, especially when, uh, teams are all working remotely, you know, how do you kind of make that culture as rewarding as possible when you're working with.

Creatives and creative leader and creative teams. Uh, they are, as you know, that these, these people are very driven. They're very, um, engaged, but you know, they can be a little bit kind of maverick and a little bit, even to even quite often neurodiverse. Um, so, you know, it's really, really important to them.

And this is for the agency world as well, to, to, to be part of a culture that they, that they believe in. And in a lot of cases to, to, to feel like a family. So I think.  You know, that, that sounds like something you should be really proud of as well, to build that culture. Yeah, I mean, it comes in Subjects of this podcast. 

Yeah. Is in a corporate business of that size.  

Yeah, I think that you really notice it when someone is struggling for something and another person's like, I've got you, I'll send you this. No one is like alone. And I think whenever we get a project, I'm like, I always have this Um,  I think it's like this and I don't know if like other creatives get it, but you get it like right at the beginning of a new brief.

I'm like, here we go again. And it's like, okay, what's the ask? What do you want? And how big is this project? And it's always seemed super daunting. And then when you start to get into the weeds of things and you go, okay, I'm going to throw this to here. I'm going to work on this bit. Someone's going to do this bit.

And I think being a hands on designer, you know, you can alleviate some of those pressures off your, your, your team, but your team are probably also all feeling overwhelmed with the scale of. Something that they're asking that's going to run seven months and it needs  daily, you know, production assets and things like that and whatever.

So, so kind of when you, you have this thing, but when everyone starts picking things up, and like I said, you get into the weeds of it all and they know that they have support from me. Um, and everyone's picking something else up and then all of a sudden the project's finishing like, oh, my God, what was that about?

You know, where's that? How has that happened? How is it all? How have we managed? But it is, that's I guess, that's what happens when you have a group who are all talented and you're all thrown at something together and you all pick up on your strengths. And  so yeah, the traffic, the lady that manages the traffic who's new to the business is doing a cracking job kind of delegating all that to people with kind of their skill sets.

So super helpful to have.  Absolutely. 

Yeah, yeah. And, um, I know we haven't got too much time left. I really, really appreciate your time today to talk to me, especially hearing how busy yours are. Um, but I just wanted to kind of end with one thing on that theme really, which is, you know, when, when you've, um,  been building, Your team.

Yeah. And it again, alludes to the, the, the, the theme of this podcast, which is around, um, the size and the scale of, of the business that you work for. Um, how as you're kind of interviewing and you are, you're building that team and you are bringing people on board, um, did any of them voice concerns about coming to work for an organization that big and any concerns they may have about layers of.

Approval and, you know, not being able to do creative work because it's so cool, such a corporate environment. Have, how, how have you kind of allayed those concerns? 

I think a lot of, a lot of individuals,  a lot of the individuals brought into the idea of the culture, um,  design work, wherever you go is design work.

And there's always key stakeholders. I think it's  when people come, it's about sort of massive transparency. And I, you know, I sort of lay it out on the table.  This happens, this happens, this happens. And you can't.  Um, you've got to be prepared to kill an idea or, you know, kind of not get too emotionally invested.

Some of the juniors we've worked with over the past have come with like a really different mindset of, I'm going to do this, and I'm going to do this, and I'm going to do this. And I try and, it's almost like a facade for me to keep trying to give them these like exciting things. But there are.  Projects where you need to create 160 icons, you know, and that is going to take the week and it's monotonous cause we're changing the color on them.

And it's like, they are production jobs and yeah, agencies could do them, but we also have the ability in house where we have the capacity at the time. And so it's giving them the reality of this, the type of work. The, the type of deadlines and like who they're going to work to, you know, and the autonomy they're going to have ultimately people don't want to be  told what to do all the time.

And I think I do that in a lot of feedback in where I have this mentoring background. So  if someone's done a piece of work and I don't feel it's 100%. I look at the context, the time that it's out in market and, um, the speed in which we need to deliver it. Right. And I kind of look at all of those things holistically and go, okay, well, it could be tweaked.

It's not kind of my style of design, but it's not wrong. It's on brand. Do we push it? And actually what I build there is confidence in a designer and I go, yeah, okay, cool. So my feedback then is. way more limited than actually if there's only something that's really kind of out there, I'm like, okay, can you tone this down?

Or can we make this or make this change? And I think by giving them that ability to make their own decisions. Does create for a better  culture and environment and feeling inside. Right. So for them to kind of want to come to this quiet corporate company, but they know  that we keep it, you know, I think we're the rowdiest bunch in the office.

Um, we do try to get some music on and we try to hire a room or book out a room for the day when we are all together. And that makes such a massive difference again, to they know that what they're coming to work for. So yeah, interview stage. I make that clear. I kind of share these, these niceties with them.

Um, and that actually we are somewhat detached, although we kind of, we, we, we are an agency servicing our business where on the, we have the benefit of being able to,  you know, come back on deadlines and, you know, cause in an agency land that the deadlines, the deadline, whereas here you kind of go, okay, well, look, we could give you something even better or another idea.

And, you know, we still present three concepts back to them. Um, so we do kind of still work like operate like an agency. But yeah, being able to push back on things and go, Oh, actually, this is what it, we, we really feel like we could be, you know, I think you get people listening to you in the business because you're an internal team rather than agency, where you just normally go, no, no, no, that's not what I want. 

So I think, yeah, hiring them and getting them on board, knowing that we kind of have that flexibility,  right. Mixed with kind of creating work at agency level and stuff that they're going to be able to showcase in their own portfolios in the future and things like that. So there's a lot of opportunity for development.

I think so. So they come in kind of  ready to experience it.  

And I hope they come in also seeing that B2B can be quite an exciting space as well. 

Yeah, because that's one thing that is lost. I mean, people think that consumer are doing all the best work, but I think,  I think when we have, we have these calls internally and I won't get into it now, but we have to, you know, we get work signed off by other parties that own the brand and, you know, other agencies.

And sometimes we talk with the consumer team and we showcase stuff and you know, they always say, we're always excited. That, you know, the work that you, you, you guys are going to show us from B2B because you guys have the biggest challenge and it's the, it's the, it's the, the more restrictive the brief, I always feel like the better the outcome. 

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Um, I mean, yeah, restrictions breed creativity. Completely.  Um, yeah, I think in B2B, those restrictions and especially a bigger organization tend to be a little bit more present. But again, like you said, I think that's a really good place to end on, actually. And that can be a really exciting challenge for some people, some people that might turn them off a little bit.

Um, but I don't think there's people necessarily as well suited to B2B as others. No, exactly. It's problem solving, right? 

The bigger the problem, the more to solve, the more to go into it. You've got to be reactive and find out solutions. So that's all that, that's all design thinking. That's essentially the definition, isn't it?

Is, is, is being able to look at a problem and go, okay, how do we get out of here? Or how do we utilize this to our advantage and create something that has cut through?  Cool. Definitely. 

Definitely. Well, listen, Omar, thank you so much for being on The Changemakers. You've been a wonderful guest. Um, thank you so much.

I really, really hope that, uh, you and your team, uh, keep smashing it at Virgin Media. Um, I mean, I would love to come along to an innovation day at the O2. Uh, sometimes I'll invite you. So maybe I'll get the invite. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then I'll share it. That'd be exciting. Brilliant stuff. Well, thank you again, Omar.

Have a great rest of your day. Thank you for being a wonderful guest on The Changemakers. 

Take care. Thank you.  Bye, Dave.