All Things Fitness and Wellness

The Fitness Business Forecast: 2025 Capital Trends, AI ROI, GLP-1 Disruption & Global Growth

• Krissy Vann

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Where is capital flowing in the fitness industry in 2025? In this special edition of The Fitness Business Forecast by All Things Fitness and Wellness—presented by ABC Fitness—host Krissy Vann leads a high-level conversation recorded on site at HFA 2025 in Las Vegas.

The roundtable covers the financial forces shaping the industry today and tomorrow, including:

  • Where venture capital, private equity, and strategic investors are placing bets
  • Whether AI is delivering measurable ROI—or just adding operational noise
  • If Pilates and premium boutique fitness have reached saturation
  • The impact of GLP-1 medications on member behavior and longevity-focused business models
  • Global expansion: where brands like UFC Gym and Crunch are growing next—and why

You’ll also hear expert predictions on how operators can position themselves for long-term success amid economic uncertainty, regulatory shifts, and evolving consumer demand.

Featured Guests:

  • Mo Iqbal, Chairman of SweatWorks & Chief Strategy Officer at ABC Fitness
  • Mark Mastrov, Founder of New Evolution Ventures
  • Lise Kuecker, CEO & Founder of Studio Grow
  • Brian Anderson, CEO & Strategic Advisor for Fitness and Consumer Brands
  • Matthew Janusek, Co-Founder of Escape Fitness & Co-Host of Lifts podcast (joins midway)

This is your essential financial briefing for the fitness industry in 2025.

Presented by ABC Fitness
At ABC Fitness, they turn the vision you have for your fitness business into reality.
Explore solutions at ABCfitness.com

Unknown:

Think this will be the year of capital raising and exits for some of the major brands who are going to create tremendous wealth and funding for growth. And this is going to be the Barnstorm year, where people really get after I think there's going to be phenomenal growth into this year and well funded groups moving into 26 and 27 and we're going to explode to a level nobody thought we could achieve as an industry. It's going to be crazy. That's what's happening. I see it coming. It's going to be a crazy next couple of years.

Krissy Vann:

Where is capital flowing in 2025 has Pilates hit peak saturation? Is AI delivering business ROI or just adding noise and how are GLP one drugs rewriting the rules for fitness and longevity. This is the fitness business forecast by ATF W, presented by ABC fitness. And in this episode, we break down the financial trends shaping the future of fitness, from m&a activity and economic policy to global growth and long term investment plays. We recorded this episode during HFA 2025 in Las Vegas, which meant juggling schedules and a little podcast, musical chairs lifts podcast co host, MOQ ball, Chairman of sweat works and Chief Strategy Officer at ABC. Fitness stepped in from the start. His co host, Matthew janiezick, co founder of escape fitness. Join partway though, to keep the conversation rolling, I'm your host, Krissy Vann, and I'm also joined by Mark Mastro, founder of new evolution ventures, LISI Kiker, CEO and founder of studio grow and Brian Anderson, CEO and strategic advisor for fitness and consumer brands. Get ready if you want to understand where money is moving, what models are scaling, and how to future proof your fitness business, this conversation is for you. You're listening to ATF W, stay fit, stay informed and keep your fitness business in shape. Krissy Vann joining you with ATF W, and we have an epic round table, which is also going to be a little bit of musical chairs, because we are in Las Vegas at time of recording for the HFA show 2025 we know that we have listeners just with the ears, so I want to attach the voices to the name. So we're going to start with Mo, introduce yourself, and I want to know at the HFA show this year, what's exciting you most in regards to the conversations you're hearing? Well,

Unknown:

thanks for having us on. This has been going to be fun, and it's been a fun week. My name is Mohammed Iqbal. I'm the founder and chairman of SWOT works. We're a product focused digital agency. I'm also recently appointed the chief strategy officer of ABC fitness, we are the largest fitness technology company who's here at HFA. And one thing I'm excited about, I think, you know, we're just talking about this before we started recording, it's, I just feel like the energy this year, over the last five years, it just seems more upbeat. It seems. I don't know if this is the oxygen, because we're at a casino. I'm not really sure if that's

Krissy Vann:

probably it. I mean, no one's upset about that infusion. And I think,

Unknown:

you know, compared to the last couple of years, where we've had it in different cities like LA San Diego, where you might kind of leave, sometimes a little bit of go around, everyone seems to be staying in the energy's high, breakfast dinners and all that's there. Boots are good. The convention. You know, this morning has been packed, so I'm just more mostly excited about the energy. And it just seems like we are going to have a great year.

Krissy Vann:

Love that Brian introduce yourself and what conversations are exciting you most

Unknown:

of the show. So my name is Brian Anderson. I am a I've been CEO of a couple of companies in this industry, melt method. I was an early stage guy in ag one, and I've been in some adjacent industries like sporting goods and travel as well. Most of my experiences in physical product companies. So Mo is a technologist and has been in the tech industry for a long time. Most of the companies I've run have been physical product companies, ranging from equipment and accessories to supplements and other things like that. But so I when I walk around shows like this, I have a kind of a keen eye on who's doing what, from a from a physical product standpoint. So what's fascinating to me in the last month or two is all of this crazy tariff import duty, you know, stuff that is being generated by the Trump administration. So that there are a lot of really interesting conversations about that, and some misconceptions as well. Some I've had some good conversations where people don't quite understand you know what's happening and where it's coming from, but that's good. All right. I'm Lisa geeker. I am the founder and CEO of studio grow. We're the largest boutique fitness Consulting Group worldwide. I have to admit, like, when I was coming here, I was coming sick. So, you know, it's always one of these things where you're like, how good is this actually going to be? Do I tell them the truth? It's Garth Brooks, right? I was sick. Maybe, totally clear on this. I blame it on my 16 year old and Garth Brooks. But I have to say two of the things I think most fast. Getting right now, lot of international conversations, and boutique fitness has done international not necessarily in the best of ways, over the last 15 years. So really looking ahead at where these growth sectors are, so many conversations in the APAC region, the EMEA just opening up wide. It's the first time that I'm seeing a lot of boutique fitness brands popping in from Qatar, from from the UAE. So I think we've got some open, open doors. But secondarily, I'm with Mo on this, like people are excited. It's the first time it feels like we're normal again as an industry like last year was a great year, at least in the boutique fitness space, and suddenly we're looking ahead, and we're like, now the world is our oyster. And Mark, no stranger to the ATF W podcast here, but introduce yourself, and I know that you had the opportunity to visit the HFA show as well, so I'm curious what conversations are exciting. You most Oh yeah. Mark Mastro of kind of a serial entrepreneur around the space, have developed a bunch of different brands over the years that some people are aware of or not aware of, not that I spend much time focused on, that have developed in about approaching 60 countries around the world right now and have operations in about 50 plus countries around the world. I would say that, you know, the show has ebbed and flowed over the last couple of decades, to the point now where it's become more of an international show. I spent a lot of time on the floor, sneaking in last night to look at all the vendors and what they're going to prepare before today, when it gets crazy and there were more international vendors than I've ever seen bringing product in that is innovative, or a knockoff of an existing brand with maybe a little bit better price point, and you know, it's going to be interesting. But I think, as everybody said, that the industry is continuing to evolve, and it's extremely competitive, but more and more people are exercising and so the penetration levels are growing, where in some countries, it's lower four or 5% the US is probably approaching 30% and the rest of the world is starting to catch up. So it's starting to become more and more exciting for all involved. As we as leaders in the industry continue to push people towards exercise and wellness, which I think is really outstanding. Well, we're going

Krissy Vann:

to kick it off with you, Mark and on that note, based on recent earnings reports, what financial trends are standing out in the fitness industry right now?

Unknown:

Well, if you look at the public companies, depending on the day, they're up and down from a stock price standpoint, but most of them are putting up record numbers life time. Put up record numbers on their last reports, and their stock, finally got over the Mendoza line and started getting up into the $30 range. Come down the last couple of days. Exponentials put up some pretty solid numbers, but their stock is still below. I called the Mendoza line, where they went public. It's still a little bit below their Mendoza line. A lot of the international groups are performing extremely well. Planet fittest put up some monster numbers as well, and their stock, you know, climb very quickly. So I think everybody's performing very well from the metrics that they report, but they're all talking about the competitive landscape that they're facing. So from rising costs, tariffs, potentially things that are going on, recessions, all this kind of noise that's in the market. But, you know, exercise has moved into the third place. You know, Starbucks used to always say they were the third place. We used to always yell at Howard, no, no, no, fitness is the third place. Nobody wants coffee ahead of fitness. And so now homework and fitness, we were probably number three more often than not in most people's lives. And it's super important. A lot of people make their decisions on where they live, where they work, based on the gym that maybe nearby. And so I think that we've kind of done a great job as an industry and pushing the needle forward. And the companies that we can see their numbers are showing that they're performing a very, very high level greater than ever before, which coming out of COVID Five years ago now this month. You know, it's pretty outstanding to see, but who the heck would have thought it took us five years to kind of get back to normal? Yeah, better

Krissy Vann:

late than never, kind of on that note of capital investment. Mo, where do you see it flowing more so on the tech side into physical gym spaces?

Unknown:

Well, lately it's been, I think, less on the tech side and more into the physical gym spaces. And you've seen a lot of movement from profit equity, more recently than of last year, el catterton came into one technology company in Egypt and another one. They acquired SARS CO, which is a really strong boutique fitness brand. But right now, with investment coming in, I think a lot of the product equity firms are sitting on capital right now, some of them are looking to exit that. I mean, the company that which I'm at now has Thoma Bravo, has been in it for just about five years or so, and I think, you know, right now they've been sitting on, I think, I think COVID also changed the timeline of that. It probably extended for a lot of what typical private equity firms would want to do. And on the investment side, one thing of note is there's very little coming into early stage companies. Yes, and I don't think that that's a bad thing. In fact, I think that's a good thing. I remember during the pandemic, and even before the pandemic, a lot of investors went into fitness technology, which, again, I'm a technology, so I'm all for that, but you've got to invest into good ideas. And I've seen a lot of bad ideas come into fitness. I've seen a lot of people, technologists, come into fitness who don't understand fitness, and and then they get funding, they'll get 5 million or 10 million. So what's happened now is the companies that have survived, the ones that have not shut down, are being acquired. So there's a lot of acquisitions happening, and they're being priced appropriately, right? So you may have a digital company that raised, you know, let's just say 20 million that was valid at 190 back in 2021 being now acquired for five or 10 and that. So I think there's been a reset on that investment front, but the physical locations, I would especially say both corporate and even franchise owned. I mean, Mark talked about lifetime, but I think that is continuing to accelerate. I do see a challenge, though, for the mom and pops. I do see a challenge for the one to five locations, because so many of the equity firms have kind of gone into the mid market, the mid tier, they're helping innovate on what is the next iteration. And I look at that in two categories. One is the premium sector, which is brands like the Bay Club and lifetime and others. But also then on the HVLP, which has been redefined right from HLP 10 years ago to HLP today, which is, you know, 2.0 HLP 3.0 depending on who you talk to, there's a lot of investment going into into those areas as well. For

Krissy Vann:

yourself. Brian, what industry trends are attracting capital from investors, just kind of as a follow up from him, and the differences you see between the investment capital being deployed by venture capital family offices and private equity,

Unknown:

such a huge difference. And Mo talked about good ideas and bad ideas at the you know, private equity follows earnings, right? It's typically private equity groups are investing either growth capital or acquiring companies that are established and producing earnings. And you know, most, most of the investment mandates are like that. So private equity invest in lots of elements of our sector, but they those companies have to be proven, established, larger and producing earnings consistently, right? So, so PE, it has a more diverse set of investments across our industry, like mo mentioned the catterton investments recently, right? 200 million growth capital invested in EGM and acquisition of solid core, that was six or $700 million but those are companies doing very well financially. So PE, to me, never really changes that which companies and parts of the industry are doing well, it eventually comes down to earnings. But the venture money always interests me. You know, Mo's in the tech world, and knows this very well, but you know venture money, VC firms and VC funds, and also just venture investors are swinging for the fence, right? They, they're they're seeking high valuations, high returns, and take risks accordingly. And what constantly fascinates me in this industry are tech companies that, if they survive and do well, will be producing recurring earnings at a very high EBITDA multiple and venture money flows into them. So you know, even the booking platform companies, there have been a lot of announcements in the last year or two. You know, venture money flows in 1020, $30 million because those investors are, you know, whereas private equity group provide more buy more conventional company, and they're, you know, company will sell it 10 times earnings, which is usually one to two times sales. But those tech companies and the venture money coming in are trying to get 10 times sales or 15. So to me, there's still a lot of risk being taken, but that's mostly in tech and and also a little bit supplements. But those venture money are really seeking recurring revenues and high margins. So I, to me, there's a real, you know, stratifying investment strategy there, P versus VC and family offices and private investors can, you know, have a lot more flexibility in what they do. I think one of the things that Mo said, I think has really been prevalent over the last couple of years, it's if it's been difficult for early stage, you know, startups and really early stage companies to re to raise series A and friends and family money. If somebody needs two, three, $4 million to get going, that money has been really tight the last couple of years, and I hope, and I think it's loosening up a little bit, which will help help early stage people. What

Krissy Vann:

are your thoughts on the boutique sector? Because obviously you have such a pulse on it. So when it comes to consumer spending, are there shifts there, and where do you think the growth is through this year? Yeah, I think we were curious with the election, what was going to happen this year? I mean, that's

Unknown:

it really was dramatic after the 2016 election. So coming into this I was looking to see where were we going to go domestically. I think consumer spending is up. If anything, usage looks a bit differently. So how we're actually utilizing boutique fitness duty? Which remains down from pre pandemic numbers. But when it comes down to spending, people are going relatively full speed ahead. I think we're seeing some course corrections. I'll talk two different areas. So if you think about boutique in terms of at home, I mean, the pandemic gave us 1,000,001 at home digital fitness brands. And you could think, at $10 a month, $15 a month, $20 a month, people started to collect these memberships, left, right and up and down. And that's not holding through. I mean, we're starting to see people who might have had$300 a month in spending on this down to, hey, I'm at 2025, $30 a month on this. So it's been a major shift in boutique fitness from the digital play when it comes to brick and mortar. First of all, people are flooding back in certain industries, vastly outperforming, I should say, modalities, vastly outperforming others, bar industry. I mean, it's just never recovered. I we were looking back 2019, something crazy, like 40% of studios we saw being open then we're bar studios. Now we're down to 2% we're seeing that in usage as well, on where this is so I see, I see spending still going full speed ahead domestically. Interestingly enough, the US election, I think, really has impacted the conversations that we're having, especially in the Ukraine. It's really been impactful to the EMEA markets for us. So we're seeing kind of very, I think, cautious spending in January and February buck the trends of what we'd seen in 2023 and 2024 I've had a lot of people, especially in kind of the Western European region, that are asking, what's different this time? Like, what do we need to be looking for? Also important to note that marketing has changed for us significantly. Facebook meta, going ahead and go with their their new name as of three years ago, which I still can't do, a meta labeled fitness and wellness, a sensitive topic. This is a serious blow to everybody from a marketing perspective, especially in the fact that purchase tracking is now blocked for us and for many who are just spending that really driving themselves forward and hoping to find like ideal consumers. A lot of the privacy laws, especially in Europe, but increasingly in the United States, had already greatly impacted our ability to find the right consumer and acquire them inexpensively. Nowadays, it's looking very different, and I'm curious to see as this rollout is complete and we start to see how we're actually going to be able to market at what cost it's going to take for us to acquire a new customer in a wide variety of different markets. That's going to change

Krissy Vann:

this episode is brought to you by ABC fitness, with more than 31,000 clubs and studios, 542,000 coaches and trainers and 38 million members in over 100 countries. ABC fitness is the fit tech provider to the best in fitness. Visit them at ABC fitness.com you Yeah, I'm really glad that you naturally segued me to talk about the Trump administration coming in, because as we started this, I know you brought it up, one of the big conversations happening on the HFA floor are tariffs. And I do want to stipulate that it's March 13 that time of reporting, because this is constantly evolving and changing. So it could be very easy to date this question before we get there, but with the current climate right now, we'll start with you, Brian, because you have a lot of experience running product companies, and we're talking about the shifts in consumer spending, but when it comes to operators, what's the impact here? What are the conversations that are happening?

Unknown:

So there will be, there will be price impacts on the market, but who knows where the heck it's going to shake out like there's, you know, stuff all over the place. There seems to be a lot of passion around the Canada, Mexico stuff, but I think it's important to know that not much fitness equipment is made there. So even though there's a lot of passionate kind of, you know, 25% on candidates and so forth, that really won't it shouldn't affect the market that much, because our stuff in our industry is not really made there. The thing to always keep in mind about tariffs is it is based on the country of origin in which a product was made. So a US company might have inventory in the US and are selling that in the US or abroad. But what tariffs are all driven by, where the where the product is made. Smaller products, fitness accessories, as an example, are almost all made in China. There's just not a decent infrastructure in any other country to make that stuff en masse. And a Trump administration, it has increased tariffs 20% on almost all Chinese goods over the last two months, right, February 4 and March 4. So if you're you know, selling a $50 accessory that cost $10 to make in China, and you were paying a 12% tariff on it. Now that tariff is 32% so that has to flow through the market at some point. Bigger equipment is trickier, because it's made in a lot of places. You know, it's, you know, matrix is owned by Johnson Health Tech, which had its manufacturing in. Taiwan at some point in the past, a lot of that has moved to mainland China, because it's cheaper to manufacture there. So the goods that are being made in China, the you know, will be hit with that extra 20% tariff coming in. So regardless of where the inventory is sitting, whether it's US or Europe or wherever, well, in the US, you know, those goods, Chinese goods, will be hit at this point, Taiwanese goods are not hit, right? Because those tariffs that not have not come up. Techno gym makes a lot of their stuff in Italy. And as of right now, tariffs are not increasing on, you know, on EU goods coming into the US. But who knows if that's going to change. So it's, it's really all over the place. But if, you know, if, if an operator is a buyer of equipment, and you've got suppliers. To look at major players, like pre core, which manufacturers in the US, or matrix that manufacture a lot of China and Taiwan, or other players. You really have to look at the country of origin. I think we're where it's going to where this is going to play out a lot is some some brands earnings will be hit as a result of this. So let's say there's a an equipment manufacturer who makes in the US, right? And pre core is known for that. But if they make in the US, they don't, they don't have these issues in import dudes, they're manufacturing in the US, which is exactly what the Trump administration is trying to do to to incentivize US production. If a competitor makes competitive similar products, and manufacturers in China, their their input costs are going up 20% but if their competitors are making in the US, then they don't really have the ability to raise prices. So it's going to inherit their earnings at the end of the day. It's all over the place, million ways to look at it. It's going to be really interesting to see how it plays out

Krissy Vann:

well and mark when it comes to these changes that are happening in real time, what should operators be thinking about as they prepare for these regulatory changes? And do you think the Trump administration coming in? I we heard it even in the keynote this morning, that it's a positive for the fitness industry. So when we look at where we're headed, what's, what's the temperature check here, it'll be

Unknown:

yet to be seen. There's so much they've been in here less than 100 days. So I don't even pay much attention right now, as it kind of rolls out. I personally, right now don't think there's any issue with tariffs. I don't think I even pay attention to it. It's just a pricing game. So if I'm going to buy a treadmill and it comes from China or Europe or the US, whatever, it's going to boil down to the price. And either the Chinese are going to adjust their sale price to offset the tariff, or they're going to basically come to the US and not be competitive. So if I'm opening a new facility someplace in the US, I can decide, do I want to treadmill from matrix or techno gym or Life Fitness or pre core or true or whoever's got the coolest treadmill? And they're all pretty damn nice, they're all pretty competitive. And you can go in and say, Look, I'm going to buy yours because you gave me the best price. But I'm a warranty person, so a lot of times I don't really care about the price. If you're$8,000 treadmill and you're a$7,000 treadmill, I'm like, What's the warranty? Am I getting five years of parts, or am I getting three years of parts? What are you giving me? And if they give me five years, I'll pay more, because that's the big issue on tariffs is going to be on replacement parts. So if I have to replace headboards and belts and different aspects of my card equipment, because strength isn't so bad, what's that piece going to cost me? Now, if it's a Chinese piece that's being manufactured there and brought over here, it might take up my repair maintenance 10 or 20% so a few 100 bucks more a month. But I'm not too worried about the tariffs on the equipment. They'll bend steel. They'll bend metal. They'll figure that out. It's going to cost more, cost less. I'll just negotiate harder, because I buy hundreds of millions of dollars equipment every year through my network, so I'm just going to be a tougher guy to deal with. That's all. That's a Mike Feeney thing in my group, not me, Mike. Mike's a bulldog. He'll figure it out. On the flip side, it's really about recession, inflation, right? And then your price point, so it gets tougher and the economy gets tougher. You know, does boutique get hit a little bit harder? Does lifetime at $340 a month, the belong get a little bit harder? Does Bay Area, you know, Bay clubs get hit a little bit hard, as Matthew Stevens have to reprice a little bit because people are leaving to go to crunch at 20 bucks, or Planet Fitness at 20 bucks, or you have CGM for 40 bucks, what do they do if they downsize? That's kind of what you focus on and how you get after it. And then the marketing aspect, like you said, there's so many in this industry. There's so many levers that you have to pull to kind of figure out what is right in that given time period that you gotta be really good master at working at Oregon with so many different aspects to get to your outcome, and tech, everything else that we have to figure out on. So it's a lot of fun. I think it's exciting times, because the ones that are really good at this, are really great at this, are going to figure it out, crack the code and be cost effective on purchasing and be smart about pricing and about managing cost containment inside your facilities. And I don't want to spend an hour talking about this. I can spend five hours, but the best example I can give everybody is a simple one in the San Francisco Bay Area in San Jose, in a facility we have our gas and electric bill in the month of January will be $8,000 say, 20,000 square foot facility. Come June, July, it'll be somewhere in the mid 30s. I. Because of varied pricing, and we have no say, and there's no logic to it. It's just we're charging you because we can. And so you're in a facility that's 20,000 take a facility like lifetimes 150,000 if he's in that market, or take Bay clubs, you know you're looking at probably a $40,000 number going up to 120 and so that's the craziness you have to deal with market by market. It's not like that in Tennessee, probably not so much in Florida, but in California, it's crazy. And there's so many different cost containment structures we can talk about like that that make it almost impossible to manage your business these days. You know, consistently, you just have to be really good, like I mentioned, like pulling the levers and making sure that you're setting your club up for success with the right lease, setting up your club for success with the right equipment being brought inside, and then pricing it and affording to be able to pay your people properly. Because some markets have moved to 25 and $30 minimum wages, and that's forcing you to say, I can't have as much service and headcount because when my gas electric bill goes to $35,000 I mean, what am I going to do? So I guess I could spend hours on this, but I think it's a really interesting time. Tariffs are important, and I think, like Brian said, Let's wait and see what happens. As it starts to fill out that game that Trump's playing, pulling his levers up and down. I like the challenge, so I'm actually excited about each and every day having fun with it and trying to crack the code well.

Krissy Vann:

And I think it's wonderful, obviously, with your operations, enjoying the challenge. But I'm curious, because I'm seeing a lot of head nods, and I know in your business for boutique fitness and dealing with all the operators there, sometimes their capacity for risk is so much more limited. So what are you hearing from your members? Yeah,

Unknown:

I mean, so Well, it's interesting that, first of all, let me touch on the utility side of this, because if you have a hot yoga studio and you're in the UK right now, you would not you've gone from paying at, let's just say you have 2000 square feet, 200 squares worse, right? You have gone from paying probably 800 pounds a month, six to 10 six to 10,000 Yeah. I mean, you can't recover that in a studio like that, like it is impossible. There's nothing you can do. So we have, like, segmented out some sectors, like hot yoga studios, wildly opening up in many parts of the world. You take me to Western Europe and the UK right now, where we're still dealing with the offset utility costs from the Ukrainian invasion. It's a totally different world. We're just not opening studios in that right now. Look, I think, for operators, and I'm remembering who, which of y'all said this before, but we are. We're really dealing with the fact someone came to me and they said, I'm looking for a private equity group. I'm looking for investments that are roughly in a 30 million EBITDA range, that are corporately owned. The number of those that exist in boutique fitness is like I can count on one hand. It's just not there. We're too young of a market on where this is that being said, what we're starting to see grow is readily these. Hey, I'm getting to 10 units. I'm getting to 15 units. That's when it's a game changer. I mean, I am worried for people that are coming to me and saying, I only want one unit. I mean, that's going to be an issue long term. There's too many fluctuations in so many of these things. Just head office costs. The idea of who's gonna who's gonna be your marketer, who's gonna be running HR, who's gonna be this, 123, studios. It is really tough to make that work. When you get in, though, and you start getting to 510, 1520, 25 studios. I don't once we're seeing about 10 studios, cash flows, letting you roll out five to 15 in a year. I mean, there's some real growth trajectories moving forward on this. So I think the smaller operators gonna have to get really strategic brand differentiation, because now this is where boutique fitness has gotten sloppy. I mean, there's a lot of brands that look exactly alike. They're making the exact same offer. It's like made the comment I was in Dubai recently. Know where I was? Might as well have been in Miami. Might as well have been in in London. Might as well have been in New York. I mean, you just wouldn't have even bothered. We're gonna have to learn different to differentiate as a brand and also as our offering. I mean, luxury is the key word in boutique fitness. I don't even know if most people are actually premium services in boutique fitness. I mean, you know, if we really look at what the offering is and where we go on this so I think we're going to have to also seek to change what we really give people. How good is the experience actually, does it go beyond just what fitness is? I mean, the rise of the social, wellness clubs and things of like are giving us certainly some ideas on where this can go. But I think it's going to be a very interesting next three years. I think we're still going to see as much of a. Central drop off, as we did during the pandemic, just because we have a lot of brand new operators that are emerging into this market, no fitness experience, first time entrepreneurs, and they're not going to last without some signal. What are you saying on on all that, on owner, operator versus franchise? This is interesting on this one. So I think from a from an investment perspective, the number of people that are coming to me and say, I'm unwilling to be a franchisee, so I don't want to be. I don't own 100 club Pilates units. I prefer not to be a franchisor. I really don't want to have 250 franchisees, because boutique fitness is dicey. We're not selling as many 10 and 20 and 30 unit territories, and so you're gonna sell 300 of these units. You're gonna sell to 300 unique people. That is not a fun position to be in as a franchisor from a corporate perspective. I mean, that's gonna, I think, gonna be the end game. I mean, and when you look at the valuations that we're getting on those corporates, beating this every day, solid core was a great example is Barry's is a mixed model. So, you know, some joint ventures and some franchises built in, but I still think it's a largely corporate model. Everyone wants to be a franchisor. It is a strange thing to me. Like, you sit and you're like, What is my dream goal? And they're like, franchises, and I'm like, Do you realize you'd have 10 corporate locations and probably make more than if you had 200 franchisees. Right now, there's a course correction in just, I think, the awareness and knowledge base of what that looks like in boutique fitness. Well, set this separate. We won't talk about it here, but set it separate. I'll give you some feedback on that, on the pros and cons, on both sides. Having built both, I gotta say, Okay, which one worked out better, and why, and how do people value and what do they look at when it's owner operator and it's franchise, what can scale, what can't scale, and what is private equity going to get behind? What do they prefer? And how do they value it? So I give you five minutes on what I've learned, but it's another topic for another day, because we're letting the boss here take your thunder away. So the thunder away, but it's a fun COMMENT. And on boutique, as we're talking to me, boutique has always been what I call guru in the house. That's right, white, literally, who's leading that location and who's your best instructor and who's following them, and are they sticking around and staying and anytime you lose your best instructor, whether it's a cycle class, hot yoga class, bar class, you know it it hurts. It's not easy to replicate and develop your team. So there's some advantages of franchising, because that's owner operator interpretation. House is usually there on a owner operator model, you really got to pay your people well and keep them and and make sure that you know, they're keeping that clientele loyal and happy. And that's the battle always for me. But I do, do love the challenge. I think it's one of the interesting things on this so many people left the industry in boutique fitness and the pandemic. We say 1.1 to 1.3 million people at home and start teaching at home. I mean, at their garage, on top of it, look how many of them were full time, how many of them had benefits, like, all of a sudden, an average person had an advanced college degree in an MBA. They they were investment banker, they were a doctor, they were this, they were that. They were teaching for $22 an hour. And all of a sudden they thought, Do I really want to deal with this? No, I don't blame them. So, I mean, I do think employee development and replenishing the education that we've lost is we've lost a base of mentors that really would have done this. Technically speaking, this is me giving a very unpopular opinion. We went to about 250 studios last year as a team, the rankings of how good those classes were dropped by like 50% by us internally. Like it just wasn't there difference anywhere in quality brands, like brands that you would say should give a great experience. Do I think it's still possible? Yeah, we don't need to go with soul cycles model, by the way of paying$800,000 for a great team member. Either there's something in the middle. There's enough people that are looking to build careers in this that if we start really dialing this, and by the way, solid core, this is why they have won. It's why they've been valued on this. I've put people full time, they've given them benefits, they've given them realistic salaries, one that actually makes sense, like to a bottom line, yeah, it's going to be a fun conversation. Yeah, and East Coast urban density Trumps Midwestern suburban spread out like a density, right? So can you scale it in places that don't have the density? Interestingly, this is a fun, fun note on this. So we started looking, did you know Robin Klaus? All right, so dear friend, loved him so much. Came to me like, three he's like, one of my favorite he was one of my favorite humans in the world. So he came to me about three, four years ago, and he said, I've got an idea. And he's a Midwestern boy. Grew up in Wisconsin. And he said, Look, pricing in boutiques. This. It's inelastic. You look at classes, and I go from New York City to Omaha, Nebraska, $10 price range. Now, if I go from SOHO, which is currently sitting at average $103 per square foot, and I'm solid core, my class is$29 I go to Fargo, North Dakota. Solid core is opened two locations, and is considering, I think, a third, $17 with a $19 cost per square foot. And it's and it's performing well, it's killing it. The operating expenses so much are completely elastic. So in my mind, like the greatest opportunities in boutique fitness is not necessarily in New York City anymore. In fact, there's an awful lot of brands from major names in the last year and a half that have wound up folding real quickly in New York City. It's going to be these tier, what we consider tier three and beyond, markets that we're going to look at. They got plenty of people who are willing to pay it. I mean, in Fargo, we can do this. Can do this in an awful lot of places, and they've got talent. Like, it's not the same as being able to go to Broadway and, like, hunt out 37,000 people that solid core could bring into an audition, but there's plenty of talent that's there and that's hungry. Yeah, I think, I think the caution to the win, I'll just give one word to it. Just turn and when you get into the small 100% churn, like urban markets, and once you go through a year or two of enrolling everybody who loves you, and they decide that they want to do something else, there isn't a lot of people left. So you have to be able to sustain after the honeymoon years of one and two for me, a brand, I always look at it, how could it perform in years 456, and seven? Because I don't want to have a 10 year lease and kick ass in years one and two and three, and then have to struggle in years four through six, four through 10. So churn is really something I always pay a lot of attention to in the market, but time will tell, sometimes you find amazing businesses that withstand everything. But my experience has been that these smaller trade areas don't have a lot of churn in and out, and therefore your base doesn't stay as strong as it does in the early years. But time will tell you, can always change pricing. There's ways around it, but it becomes more challenging.

Krissy Vann:

And you love a challenge,

Unknown:

and if I know the answer, then I don't take the challenge,

Krissy Vann:

the conversation continues, but first a thank you to our sponsor, discover ABC, Ignite gym management software and learn why it's the trusted solution for more than 8000 clubs and 24 million members. Learn more at ABC fitness.com Fair enough. Well, that kind of led beautifully into global expansions that we're seeing, and it was one of the conversations that we started. What was happening on the trade show floor is seeing all these different brands showing up from around the globe. Well

Unknown:

before you I'm gonna step out. Oh yeah, I have to go to a session at HFA. Yes, you do. So it's been great having someone have my podcast co host Matthew, who I think, you know, Well, Mark, come in, and I've kept the seat warm for him. I

Krissy Vann:

love it. We, we warned everyone we were playing musical chairs today, because this is the beauty of a trade show. So yeah, thank you so much for joining us. Mo, do you have any final thoughts before you leave? Well,

Unknown:

I think I just want to touch on the, the the Trump thing and the comment that was made at the HFA, I think the overall sentiment is more related to health and wellness. So we actually launched HFA, first Digital Health Council yesterday with all the major players in the industry. I was sharing that along with Al, who's a mentor of mine, and Liz as well. And I think it's just that the focus on health, regardless of where you fall in the political spectrum, is here, right? So you've got someone with RFK and even Trump that's saying we're going to break the system. And I think we can all acknowledge that the system is broken now, how they go about building it back up and how they break it, we can all kind of question and help influence that. But what excites me the most is that we're talking about this. We're talking about goals. HFA has got a goal called 30 for 30, to get 30% of our country moving to meet the minimum guidelines by 2030 we're talking about supplements, we're talking about pharmaceuticals, we're talking about GLP one. We're talking about movement. These are all good things. How we get there? We get there. We probably all have different opinions about it, but I think the sentiment from this morning was probably saying that we have an administration. And I don't think it's Trump. I think it might have been video. It doesn't matter on that, but as a community, I think largely driven by the you know what came out of COVID and how we're taking ownership of our own health, the population as a whole is not talking about this and making some good decisions. So that's what I'm most excited about. So yeah, so with that, I'm gonna step out and I'll have Matthew come in, brilliant thanks for having me. We'll see you all around. Y'all

Krissy Vann:

have fun. Hello there. You're in the non squeaky chair. We put you there on board. This.

Unknown:

D Ali, G, just walk in the house. Welcome. Good to see you, man, are we? Are we recording, or we sure are okay? All right, you're

Krissy Vann:

right into the thing a bit. Bye.

Unknown:

We're done. Be caught up with what you've been talking about, but I'm excited to be here. Thank you very much.

Krissy Vann:

You came at the perfect time, because you were just segueing anyways. But before we even crack into it, I made everyone go through this because I want to put the voice to the name. So introduce yourself, and as you've been strolling around the HFA show what conversations have excited you most.

Unknown:

I'm Matthew Jenny Zeke. I'm the co founder and CEO of escape fitness. We're a functional training company and developed some exciting strength products this year and at the show, it certainly the show seems to be very vibrant compared to previous years. I think certainly people I were talking to express that there was, you know, seem to be busier and more interesting conversations. I think it certainly seems as though, although everybody still talks about the pandemic, it still seems to be a lot of people are still navigating a very complex business environment for a number of different reasons and and so there's, there's a lot of exciting ideas and concepts that are coming out, but most people I talk to still seem to be dealing with an enormous amount of uncertainty, and I don't know whether that was always the case. I know business is always uncertain, like Mark's probably been in more experience than anyone around here, I guess, but, but there just seems to be a lot more predictability. Is that, is that a word? Yeah, why not? So, yeah, that's, that's kind of, that's what I picked up in the short time I've been here.

Krissy Vann:

Brilliant. Well, thank you so much for joining us and playing the musical chairs. And, of course, fellow podcasters, well, and fellow podcaster, I know it was that beyond active we got to crunch out a bunch of them and lifts podcast. So thank you for taking the time we're into global expansion, just so we can catch you up. But we were starting with Mark here, because UFC gym crunch had those big press releases as of late. And to your point, yes, global expansion has always been part of the mission. I know, speaking with Adam Sedlak even a year and a half ago, and he was so excited about the trajectory. But what markets are most attractive right now that are being entered? It depends

Unknown:

on your brand and what you're trying to do. I think that there's, you know, phenomenal international operators, if you want to go to Europe and you want to compete with basic fit and Renee moose and his group, I mean, that's a monster company. So if you're in that HVLP, kind of low price package, you're entering way too late to compete with him. If you want to get into the Middle East, into India, into China, it's still some opportunity. So I think it depends on your brand, your boutique, your low price, your high end, you're probably not going to see lifetime, go out and go global. Brahms not going to spend, you know, his 50, $250 million projects in some foreign countries, just not what's on the map for him. But you're going to see people that are in the franchising world, like crunch, like UFC, gym, like planet, like many of the boutiques, are going to try and find ways to get out there exponentials trying to grow, you know, internationally and and find good, proven people that operate other franchises now that know the markets from a real estate standpoint, development standpoint, and then if you have a good brand strategy that's, you know, fairly easy to operate, to be able to train, develop people to operate, you can grow in markets and get a footprint going. So I think some is just more in the press. But, you know, I was in 20 countries in the 90s. So it's like, to me, it's like, not a big deal. Everybody's doing it. They've been doing it forever and ever. And, you know, we've grown now. And like I said, we probably operate 5560 countries around the world for different platforms. So it's fun to watch. It's different. It's unique. You got to crack the code in every country. It's not the same. You know, if you want to go to the Middle East, how you operate in Saudi Arabia is not how you operate in Dubai, and it's definitely not how you operate in Qatar. So you've got to kind of change your model to meet everything that is the foreign market and the competitive landscape and the languages and on and on. So it's another really fun challenge, but it's not, it's not easy software development. Oh, man. Talk about trying to find good software to operate your businesses. That's a whole nother conversation. But I think a lot of people are focused on international now. I think that it is a big opportunity, and fitness is starting to grow, as you mentioned earlier, in many of the countries that we weren't seeing it before. So it's a lot of fun. Yeah,

Krissy Vann:

always a lot of fun. Lot of challenge, lot of fun.

Unknown:

Like challenges. It's a place to be absolutely and getting into I get, like I said, I could tell story for hours. But when we first went into China in late 90s, you know, my board was convinced that you had have a partner. You just can't operate in China without a partner. And I was like, I don't think so. I don't think we need a partner. And so I remember Ted Forsman, who was our partner at the time, was like, Well, I have a good friend who's the president of East China bank, the largest bank. If you can convince him you don't need a partner, then I'll support that. So I met him in Hong Kong. We had a nice lunch, and I explained what I thought at the end the meeting is like, you don't need a partner. And so we went into China without a partner, and it was not a problem. But you know, if you put a partner in there, it could have been really difficult, because, you know, so many things come with that, but that's what we did, and there's other ways to do it, but it was a lot of fun, but, you know, definitely a challenge.

Krissy Vann:

Fair. Well, I know, for time purposes, we're going to roll right into trends. And I feel like trends, it's one of those words in fitness where there's either it's a gimmick and then it goes away. I know this is something that you and I have talked about so long, but let's start with GLP ones. We know it's dominated the conversation for a very long time. Brian, where do you see the direction headed? Or what are the conversations that you're hearing in that space,

Unknown:

well, they're here to stay, and they're growing like hell. There's no doubt about that. The I've been involved in a startup recently as a board member, and I've learned a lot about the space. The rate of usage of GOP ones, people, patients, are on GOP ones have have doubled every year for the last couple of years, 2023 there were 30 million prescriptions written in the US, so that number in 24 was probably double that. And it's hard to tell exactly how many users that equates to, because some stay on for a few weeks, and some stay on for 12 months, and everything in between. But sort of extrapolating data and doing the best job you can to figure it out, there are probably somewhere between five and 8 million people in the US on a GLP right now, and that is growing like crazy. JP, Morgan estimates that by 2030 there'll be 30 million people on glps. But I personally believe that's an underestimate. I think it'll be bigger than that. It's but the big question, you know, so So glps are huge. I believe they're growing. I believe they're here to stay. In fact, the the things for which they are approved are expanding greatly, right? The real question is, how does it affect our industry, right? And, and I don't think there's a direct answer to that. My belief is very simple, which is that I think all boats kind of rise with the tide. I believe that the population of people taking GLP ones, most of them weren't in gyms. They weren't fit, they weren't going to gyms, they weren't taking supplements, they weren't wearing athletic clothes. And when you lose a bunch of weight and you now feel better about yourself, you're more likely to go to a gym, you're more likely to take a Pilates class, more likely to buy Lululemon or or take ag one or a supplement, because you feel better about yourself. So I don't, I honestly don't think there's a way to directly correlate or measure but I just think that all brands in the health and wellness space are will benefit from more people feeling included and not excluded from, you know what we do. So So I just think it's, I think it's positive for everyone and and the numbers are growing, and they're really significant sister. What do you hear on telehealth? Because I know that hims and hers stock had blown up because they were starting to telehealth, and then they got shut down by the FDA. So is that going to happen where it can be prescribed over the phone to somebody, and so the gyms could get into that space where it's not going to happen? Well, a lot of gyms are trying now they're I, I wish I knew what the regulations were called in the FDA stuff, but for the last year or two. And again, I'm because, you know, I'm not an expert on this stuff, but when a medicine is in demand more than than the branded producers can produce, the government will open that up to copies and allow it essentially allow patents to be broken. And so for the last year or two. That's why companies like Kim's were able to sell lots of this stuff. But that has been retracted now because the production capacity of the brands like ozempic and we go V and so forth have now come up and they're able to capitalize. So it's kind of moving back to a brand, to the branded companies. Who knows, like, we'll see, and also like, how will Secretary Kennedy affect all of this and will, will it will deregulate? I mean, I think there's a lot of lot of question there. I know that

Krissy Vann:

GLP one is a rapid topic, so does anyone want to jump in? I saw a lot of head nods.

Unknown:

I think the micro dosing trend is something, at least a conversation that a lot of people are having in boutique fitness, but just across the board, I think a lot of people are having it. We've got the usage for extraordinary weight loss. Okay, we get that. The question is, is for everyone sitting in the room, is this something for us, from a longevity perspective, that we should be looking at? I see a great doctor down in Raleigh. She was with Duke's Integrative Medicine Center, probably one of the biggest components of a true microdose of GLP, ones that I've ever seen, and the studies that they're starting to produce, pretty remarkable. So the question is going to become, I think, in this industry, there's a lot of like initial like, hold back, because we looked at it as cheating. That's. I mean, I think that's the honest thing. All of a sudden now people are looking at this and saying, maybe we have something that really could be rather remarkable. It's also interesting from the supplement space, at least, I know there's a Johns Hopkins driven brand moral labs that has come out with something that, at least from early studies, looks as competitive to this as possible. So it's going to be interesting what emerges and what molecular delivery, because I think that's the really thing that they're looking at in the supplement space. It's been the bigger issue. And how are we going to look at things like Berberine and other things that have been around for a very long time that mimic certain things in GLP ones to open up the doors, not just in prescription but on the supplement side, yeah,

Krissy Vann:

with you saying the micro dosing thing. I just had a conversation with Jeff sweeful about exactly that because at me, or that's been one of the commonalities, where they realize the clientele isn't necessarily, yeah, the obesity epidemic, obviously, it's a huge component in what the conversation was initially. But at the end of the day, even though the industry has changed its stripes over what people's goals are, there's always going to be that someone that wants to lose 15 pounds before a wedding and wants the easier route, and now there seems to be a much friendlier approach from a health perspective. I'm not a doctor. No one sue me, but it's true. I mean, the way, because it's all been an experimentation. At the end of the end of the day, this wasn't designed to be a weight loss drug that was a side

Unknown:

effect. What's really interesting is that it started off at around a 1500 to $2,000 kind of outlay, and people were looking for insurance to cover it. Insurance carriers were like, we're not going to cover it. Most big companies in the US were self insured, so they're not interested in covering it for their employee base, because 1000s of people would start showing up at $1,500 it's come down now in price, starting to head into the 499 range. Now the generics are out, and the generics are 199 so you're starting to get down to 200 it's moving the pill form, which will happen at some point in the next 468, 12 months, I assume, and at that point it's gonna be readily available to most people. And then it's all about the studies and what it does. Doctors are being told to prescribe strength training and resistance training, if you go on the product, which is awesome for us, for our industry, because people need to kind of do some resistance training. And when you shed 2550, 100 pounds, I mean, your body goes into a whole different kind of need and desire for looking good, feeling good, tightening the skin, doing all those things. So I think, I think we play a big role as we go forward. We're already seeing it in our industry, in our business, where people are showing up, where doctors have said, You gotta go join a gym, you know, start doing some push ups, get in some resistance training, and then you go into regular health, right? Which everything on social media shows. You know, strength training is vital for osteoporosis, etc, etc. So you start to recognize that going to gym is a really great thing that everybody, everybody should do, and it's not a price issue anymore. You can go to gym for 10 bucks, and there's no excuse. You can go to amazing gym like lifetime or bake clubs for 300 bucks, but get out of your house and go do something. And I think we're in a great position to help people achieve and I think the GLP one is an awesome marriage for us and other drugs that may come along that are being developed right now. There's some purchases today of another company that I saw, Novak, took a big hit in their stock because another company got bought by one of the competitors, Eli Lilly. So I'm, I'm pretty, you know, bullish about, I think it's gonna be pretty cool from a marketing perspective, by the way, like we were, like, thriving on Pickleball introductory packages when you would test them above and by far best angle from a marketing perspective. JLP, wants, yeah, I mean, it's all you have to put, we cannot do it in the United States, but a very saggy face or a very saggy body part, right? And all of a sudden, every single person is like, I don't want that. Yeah. Mark, you mentioned price point that you know that's is super relevant, right? Because if someone is paying 500 bucks, you know, we Goby just came down to 500 bucks, 499, if someone's, you know, chosen that in their lives, it's, it's important enough to lose this weight, to pay 500 bucks a month, it kind of opens their mind to maybe 100 bucks a month for, you know, maybe $200 a month for a Pilates membership's not a big of a deal, right? Because if you're losing 2040, 60 pounds, you're losing muscle, it's almost impossible, unless someone's working out all the time, to lose only fat. This, to me, is where this market is going from exclusive to inclusive, right? These the population of people losing a lot of weight on glps, are starting to feel included and like they belong in a gym, and they feel good about it, and they can wear the apparel, and they can take supplements, and maybe 200 bucks a month is not a big deal for a gym membership, yeah? Because you know what I advise everybody to do, no matter what age is, you know, do at least a chem panel a couple times a year. See what's happening inside your body, right? And there's all this data now, and how you look at it, and you've got, you know, the ability to peptides, testosterone boosters, whatever it is you're trying to get after you can really fix. What's happening. But a lot of people don't know how their arteries are performing, how their heart is performing, how their body functions are performing. Nobody takes that time. And so all of a sudden, someone has a massive heart attack at 52 and you're like, What the hell happens? Well, I haven't been the doctor in 10 years, and they pass or they didn't know, and you should know what's going on. It's not that difficult, not that expensive. So you got to look at that and there's, there's a company coming out, I think, called superpower that basically, it'll do this for you. It'll give you guidance and direction on what tests to take, what supplements to take, kind of crack the code on everything. And that's, that's where people kind of miss it a little bit, for me, is they don't take that extra step. And these are friends, family, people in this room. I was today with some people I know really well, phenomenal, amazing athlete who's speaking tomorrow, Alex Rodriguez, and I was talking to him and his nephew. His nephew's with him, Nick. I'm like, Hey, Nick, when's the last time you took a blood panel? I don't know. Long time. Like you should take a blood panel, see what's going on, what's happening inside your body, and then react to it accordingly. It might be totally perfect. You might be down in calcium or magnesium or whatever it is, but it's simple, easy things, easy steps to take. And I think in our industry, we can help people recognize that it's an ideal industry, you know, because a lot of if you look at what's, you know, the price of fitness has come down. It's almost kind of commoditized. But if you look at really, you know, the influence that trainers can have. I've noticed a few of the certification companies have come up with some specific workshops around GLP ones and and I think this is, this is really a great opportunity, if you look at what's happening from a technology perspective, things like GLP ones, where there's a there's some real specialization required to be able to work with with that people with that kind of condition that have been obese, and then want to get involved in fitness, and, as you mentioned, like the blood panels and what that means, and what kind of supplementation, what kind of training, all those things together, I think gives, it gives people that are coming into the industry, that are probably left because you can earn more money stacking shelves, in some cases, it gives them an opportunity to look at this as a real career path where they can develop their skills And and kind of, you know, almost like, be bumping up against where the sort of medical field sort of doesn't provide that, you know, that that level of support, I think, No, it's true. Yeah. I mean, it's like, it's like, NASM, right, so NSM does a phenomenal job at certifying. Personal Training has been giving you an education. So I've met all my kids go through that and be certified, just for the knowledge right as a consumer, not to be a trainer if they want to be, God bless them, be one, but, but go through some training, and doesn't take much, and you'll learn so much about what to do, what not to do. It'll give you a great foundation for your life. But no, it's well said. We're

Krissy Vann:

going to take a brief pause to thank our sponsor, ABC. Ignite transforms fitness management, streamlining operations, enhancing revenue and delivering profound insights built for innovative club operators. Ignite ensures efficiency and member centric experiences. Learn more at ABC fitness.com I always say, I mean, you get a new gadget or a new toy, and you read the manual for it, and yet, we all own a body that's pretty important, in my humble opinion, and we're like, no idea how this operates. And so, yeah, exactly. So I kind of love that you put your kids through that experience, and then they have the knowledge base. Well, we're gonna move on to AI, and you're gonna end up in the hot seat here because you were in both seats. I seat. So you've become super tech guy now, congratulations. But obviously, it's a massive topic. It's dominated every conversation that we had at every single convention last year. But one of the things that Mo said you weren't here for speaking to a lot of companies that came up and necessarily didn't address the problem or solution. They kind of jumped on the buzz word versus actually having success for the business. So what are the ones right now dominating conversations that actually give a strong return on investment for operators? And

Unknown:

I have spoken about it quite a bit on the podcast. I think, like everything the industry, and I get the business community jumps onto these buzzwords, and it almost seems, if you, if you have a startup and want to raise money that put AI into it, and everybody's going to get excited. And I think there's, you know, there's a bit of a, you know, bit of caution in terms of how quickly to jump on ideas that are out there just because everybody's talking about them without really understanding if it's going to have real value to the people that you're serving. And I think there's a lot of I've seen a lot of examples of people diving in just because they don't want to be missed out, but probably invest a lot of money, and it may not necessarily be right for them. But putting that aside, I we had an interview with someone from Ace, I think, and we were talking about the trainer's role. Because, if you think about it now, you can, you can put in a very basic prompt into chat GPT, and it'll, it'll provide everything that you want, really, really effectively and pretty accurately to be, you know, a. A to be, to be very honest. And so the conversation was really, well, where does the PT fit into that? And I think it almost becomes, you know, the trainer becomes this person that needs to develop themselves to almost be the conductor of the orchestra, where they have to be able to sort of look at all of the different parts. You know, exercise being one of those, but, but looking at all the other bits that we've we've discussed, understanding the person, the individual, where they are, what they're going through, and then to be able to sort of, maybe, you know, use the the exercise development component as just as just one part of their solution. But it definitely seemed to me as though, whether you're a health club operator or a trainer, that you need to probably be sort of developing yourself a little bit further to have a broader understanding of what people want, and then focusing the skills which can't be delivered by an AI. And really, really working on those. And a lot of it is, you know, fitness is a very personal industry. It's about relationships, in most cases, whether that's face to face or even digital. It's, you know, really helping people. And most of people's challenges with weight and fitness, you know, start as a psychological thing. They start in their head and and then they get delivered with the programming. So I think it's really, it's kind of using AI to support what you're doing, moving away from some of the things that probably are not best placed to put your time with, but then doubling down on those areas where you can really make a difference. And I definitely think as an industry, we could be doing a lot better at some of the basics in terms of, you know, working, understanding, communicating, empathizing, that, that with, with a lot of the people that come through. Because we still, no matter, you know, we still don't seem to be getting enough people that should be working out, working out for whatever reason. And I think that's still something to continue to do better. I'm

Krissy Vann:

gonna pause this for one second because I know that you had a hard stop or no, okay, I don't know. I don't have anything. Okay, perfect. I just wanted to make sure I, like, glanced at the time over here, and I didn't want I got a

Unknown:

330 so I got another hour at least. Excellent. Oh, there we go. So

Krissy Vann:

we get to hear all the stories. I mean, you didn't wear that hint of pink for me that I'm pretty sure,

Unknown:

yeah, I did. I wore a little pink because I knew I would blend with you. Yeah, exactly. So I was like, we're gonna Pink Lady too.

Krissy Vann:

Yeah. I noticed all of it that was not lost on me. It was the first thing I noticed here. We're gonna head to Pilates, though, because in the boutique space, I mean, you said that some of the modalities, especially post pandemic, unfortunately, aren't really seeing the comeback and the research, but Pilates is one. I went on the trade show floor for a hot second, and I'm pretty sure I tripped over a million reformers. So with that being said, Do you feel it saturated, or is there still a lot of growth in that space? Where are we at?

Unknown:

Yeah. So it's interesting, so important to notice note like kind of three sectors in Pilates. You've got classical Pilates, which maybe 15 years ago, made up so 50% of the market. This was the idea that, hey, we got to where Joe, Joe died. We stopped there. It was everything before this. This is exactly what Pilates is. Contemporary Pilates was led by brands like sToT, bossy figures like that, who continue to evolve and adapt and grow. This that now makes up in terms of what we consider like generalized Pilates, probably 95% of the market, very different than even 10 years ago. Then you have Legree style of Pilates, developed by Sebastian lagrie, done on the Mega former 15 years ago, maybe it was 2% of studios. I'd say now it's probably 20 to 25%

Krissy Vann:

I died a slow death on one of those ones never went back, you

Unknown:

and me both. What's worse, I took my parents and my husband once to one of those classes without telling them what to expect. They didn't know for like, 48 hours warranted. I was like, as if this is on me. So look, do I think there's room in the market? Yeah, I think there's a lot of room in the market. I think a few things that you want to be aware of, reformer Pilates studios will become a saturated market in the United States. They're saturated in certain markets. They are largely being driven as almost low cost, easy, I would say, very below average trainers. I mean, they're kind of putting anyone up there on that. The markets that are continuing to grow for us, in even saturated markets, though, are more traditional Pilates studios. I mean, we're expanding an Upper West Side brand right now that is heavy on privates. We could probably build five more studios just for their privates. It's something that we're not even thinking about. I think private Pilates will be a massive differentiator for a lot of studios in the next three years. I think on the athletic style of Pilates space, it's wide open for mega formers. The market, the market is so massive right now, and you can grow and it's such a. Been driven space. I think we're seeing some interesting brands emerge that aren't necessarily legri style, but are still very athletic. Driven. Spear Pilates has done a great job of this. Andrea spear also has a phenomenal digital platform that she's built. You've got true movement in Canada emerged kind of out of the NHL. They've just signed a deal with the Denver Broncos. I expect we're going to see Pilates heavily emerging. A lot of the athletic training facilities I have my oldest my oldest son is 16, and he is a beast of a football player. And it's funny, was trying to get all these schools calling and asking about him, and they're expecting him to say, like he's running track and he's in the weight room and he's doing agility training. What the coaches are actually writing back about is his Pilates training as an interesting conversation that it's over and over and over again. It's not a surprise that I'm working out on a Friday morning in the off season with three NFL players. I mean, this is something that we've got to recognize. I think the expansion of Pilates for men. I mean, have any of y'all done this? Let's just have a few times and it kicked my ass, yeah, for sure. I mean, Pilates is largely a female driven market. We barely even touched men as a market. Most interesting for me, okay, APAC region. So I always look for education. I mean, we know that this is a need kind of Guru model on this one. So if you talk to the two largest education providers, the Pilates you ask where they certify people last year, 70% was in China for both of them. So what does the Chinese market look like? I think it's going to blow the world wide open. Europe is still completely unsaturated. Yes, people are opening things up, but it's not at the rates of what we could expect. The Middle East will be an interesting market because it's female driven. It ties in really well to a more conservative market like Saudi which boutique fitness hasn't necessarily performed well at all in Saudi, in fact, it's been a bust. Also Pilates, I think, has got some interest there, but I think we got a ways to go on this. But certain markets have to be good. You can't just open a studio anymore and expect this. But I think, I think we know that across the board, in this industry, we've all been in times where that could happen and we're not there anymore. What's the best at home retail product? All right? So this is, this is, I think, one where there's a lot of growth for To be frank, there's some brands aligned Pilates, which is like a mid ticket brand. Some brands that are emerging, coming straight from China, that you're starting to see advertised and going in, there's not a lot of great at home brands. And part of the issue is, have a full Pilates studio. My House reformers the size of this table. I mean, they're 10 feet long. I mean, so you got to figure out where you're going to put that in. This isn't like putting in, you know, a tonal or a peloton like you got to really want the space for it. I do think it's interesting that the digital providers that are growing specifically so we touched on spear Pilates, the digital providers that are offering digital reformer classes. One other interesting sector that I think is a real possibility. A lot of people don't necessarily want to spend 5000 $6,000 you can buy from China directly. Theoretically, you could get it into United States for $1,200 not if you're buying a one off model, but about 90% of what you're going to buy you're not going to buy, you're not going to actually want in your house, so probably $2,000 your reformers making a play for this a few other brands, but I do think it's going to be very interesting for the brands that are willing to lease reformers. They're looking for somebody that's going through post rehab, things like that. There's some real interesting markets. We've got some groups that are now have 250 reformers leased out. They're doing digital models on that, so they're not necessarily taking the idea that you have to purchase it. Yeah. Have you seen frame? Yeah, it's an interesting one. I think on this we got opportunities here. There's a brand that I think that's going to pop up, that I can't talk about now, but it in about six months, there's going to be some. No, you're seizing us. Yeah, I totally am. I like, I this is one that that six months from now, I think it will be the biggest innovation in reformer Pilates that we've we've seen digital or studio. It'll be for a machine. Yeah, yeah. I like frame. It's digital at home, you know, self taught under 4000 beautiful couple different models. So like that one a lot compared to others. You know, if you want to do something at your house by yourself, and you can pull 150 different programs off of the screen in front of you. It's a kind of a peloton for Pilates. Very, very cool, husband, wife, you know, wife's a big Pilates background person, but I think it's one of the better products out there. But yeah, Lisa mentioned you're a reformer, and that's another brand that fits the description you're talking about. Yeah, really well. Made, beautiful esthetic. You want it in your home. Less than 4000 bucks, yeah, and great digital. Content, six or 800 classes on a screen in front of you, and the at home market's been very strong. I think that Australia tend to lead and reform our Pilates over the last couple of years. So some of the trends there seem to be really, really hitting here. The at home market was really big, but also the 24/7 studios with no trainers has was huge in Australia over the last couple of years, and it's hitting really big. Now. Studios will open and have professional instructors just at the peak times, at 9am 10am 5pm 6pm but then they're open 24/7 and people can go in and take a digital class, and they can charge less for those or even get incremental I've done a good job. Yeah, they have those big screens in there. They're Yes, absolutely, yeah. It's going to be interesting to be interesting to see what that does in the US. I mean, I'm really curious in this. I think it's going to be a hybrid in Australia, the digital only. It's performing well. And we saw starting probably about three years was during the pandemic, we started seeing people rent Pilates suites where you could, like, rock in, you would have your reform or your studio this. People seem to really love that. It was actually performed really well. I think the hybrid model, that's going to be a really interesting one. It will solve some of the issues, first of all, on the team side. But more importantly, boutiques dead from, I mean, realistically, noon to five, yeah, sure, yeah.

Krissy Vann:

The only thing I was going to jump in there was when you were talking about having it in your home. And I live in Vancouver, in 700 square feet, so I can only imagine, yeah, exactly, marketplace and selling things when I'm done. And I can only imagine, I know people in their fitness dreams, and the stats don't lie, that's going to be a hard haul out of those buildings when it collects dust.

Unknown:

I saw one at fever, actually, as the Dutch lady has got on it that sort of goes up on the wall, and you can do it. I can't remember the but it was, it was really nice. She did a great job. I should remember the name of it, Murphy bed. Stop, just drop it down. Yeah. That's awesome.

Krissy Vann:

You need these types of innovations if you live the life

Unknown:

that I do, body base, that was the name. Just to give her a little bit of a plug. Nice people.

Krissy Vann:

Well, when it comes to trends as well, we can't really be in the space without addressing femtech and everything that is rising and the conversations, the thing that I love, and I think even you and I touched on it before in social media, the influencer generation that's really brought to the forefront conversations about perimenopause, menopause, even at the women's leadership. I don't know if you had the chance to attend yesterday at HFA. There were so many men in the room, which was actually wonderful to see, but that's what dominated the conversation, that we want solutions, and we've been such a poorly researched demographic. Pelvic floor was something that you said this time last year, maybe not this exact day, but give it a day or two in the femtech space. What's exciting, you know? And actually, I should also preface that, because I know Adam said lacks your friend, and he said he had the strongest pelvic floor muscles ever.

Unknown:

Yeah, he's been training his pelvic floor topic last year, so he's excited about it. But yeah, pelvic floor is still growing like crazy. Um, there's that pelvic chair, which we really like a lot, and pretty interesting product. But if you walk the trade show floor, I mean, I don't want to give it away, but there's some really, really interesting, innovative, cool stuff there. The big area has been recovery, right? Recovery is kind of blown up. And I think all the surveys I read recently, people are starting to say that recovery may be more important than anything, you know, starting to recognize that finally, which we've been doing forever and ever, but that's blowing up real big. Functional is blowing up real big. GLP, one which we talked about earlier, sending people in having to do some strength training. Osteoporosis, you know, baby boomers are getting a lot older in the US as they age. They know exercise is key. Social media is key. I was down in the promenade in Santa Monica a month or so ago, and I was down there looking at some space, and I looked to the left, there's this weird store. And I walk over there, and it was a Tiktok pop up store. I'm like, what's going on? Like, oh, we're Tiktok pop up store. The hottest things people are promoting on Tiktok. We have here you can buy. And we're actually filming right now and selling products. And so I go inside, they've had live, you know, people like home shopping network saying, this is the hottest thing. You know, Dubai, chocolate, you know, is the hottest thing. And so it's really interesting. But a lot of it was health and wellness and fitness type products that were coming through, you know, Tiktok, that people were talking about and pushing. It's amazing the influence that has on, like, you say, Pilates. I think there's definitely a big influence on how things like Tiktok and influences that do it really have have, you know, kind of shaped people's trends. And you've obviously been in the business since, you know, since the 90s. And so a lot of those things, you had to come to places like Ursa, and see new products, and then they would go out and tell the market what was going on. But now it's almost like turned on its head, and the awareness of the consumer has just got almost like it's got to such a high level, very well educated. And I think that creates challenges on its own for professionals, because you. Now getting challenged with, well, I've seen this professor show me this research about why we should be doing this, and you've really gotta, you gotta be on your game, I guess. No. I mean, the holy grail has always been to allow someone to enter the facility exercise and come out with data. What did I accomplish today? How much weight did I lift? How much caloric burn did I have today? What kind of classes I take? How did my heart rate do? And we can't gather that data inside. So you got people like, you know, EGM, who show up that he use their equipment and give you a lot of data. But as you get into boutique and everything else you know, orange theory was heading in that direction, how can I give you all the data from your day and give you feedback so you can better understand what's happening inside your body. And that's always been the Holy Grail. I think that's the part of tech that's kind of evolving, and that's what we're starting to get more more information from inside the facilities, and I think people are starting to get behind and get excited about it. But that's the future. Always has been, always will be. That's, to me, the Holy Grail. I want to know, what the hell did I accomplish today? And we've had a hard time measuring that. Yeah, I remember I started off as a trainer, and I remember the first person, I was just actually young gal, and she came to me and said, I want to lose weight. And I didn't know what the hell I was doing. I had no clue. There was no NASM certification course. I think I read a little book and I was a trainer, so I saw, let's get after it. So we trained for like a month, and she came in, like, day 31 crying, like, I've done everything you've asked me to do, and I haven't lost any weight. I still weigh the same. And I try to explain, Well, muscles heavier than fat. And then I dawned on me, what are you eating? Oh, there's no anything about nutrition. I didn't know shit. I was like an idiot, and she's like, I go to McDonald's after my work. And I was like, okay, so we we got to change your diet, and you got to eat healthier. And I gave her some feedback. She changed her diet. She came in a month later, lost a ton of weight, and she's like, I didn't need you. I just need to change my head. And so it's just evolved from there to where we are today. And I just really love having information to give people to make them more intelligent, which is why I love blood panels and chem panels and doing simple things to get data so that gets you excited about exercising, because I know that if I if I give you something on a way that affects the way you think it's going to change your stimulus and the way that you operate your body, and then all of a sudden, we've got a partnership, and it's kick ass time. We have a lot of fun together. So anyway, that's, to me, the Holy Grail. As we move forward, and it's getting closer and closer, I'm sure you see it all the stuff you're doing, it's just dynamite. I think it's just connecting it all, because there are a lot of you know, I have two or three wearables that I use for different things, but now the level of information that we're able to give you, it's kind of well, what I do with that? And who's going to tell me what to do with that? You know, do I train today? Do I strength train? Do I rest? You know, how long do I rest for it? I think, you know, a lot of people now got this information, but they're almost like getting confused as to where you know what to do with it. So I think, I think again, comes back to the role of the trainer, being able to say, Well, come you know, come down. Bring me your bring me your blood. Bring me your sort of wearable data. Let me sort of help you to navigate some of that. I think, you know, it does prevent, it does create a lot of great opportunities, but I've not really seen anybody that is, is sort of harnessing it. I'm sure there are people, but I've never seen anybody kind of saying, you know, come in and I'll sort of do a, you know, give me, give me a dump on your day, and I'll tell you what, what you should be doing.

Krissy Vann:

I imagine there's going to be aI winners in that space, oh, where they can take all the data and optimize. Oh, yeah,

Unknown:

you're right, yeah. I'm sure there is. I think they're also in there are indirect things that we just don't know about that are happening, because you think about, you know, the panels and the blood panels and all this stuff, where you get the question is whether data is actionable or not, right. But there are things happening that we can't quantify and we don't really know, but I'm pretty sure are happening. So I'll use as an example, you know, taken adjacent industry, the alcohol industry, has been in decline for a number of years now, right? Like badly, it's, you know, 5% down a year. Wine industry's down. The beer industry's down. And I personally believe that wearables have contributed to that a lot, because when you go have some cocktails at night or some beers and you're wearing your or ring or whoop or whatever, and need to wake up the next morning and say, Wow, my sleep score was terrible. After that happens, enough people start to equate it, and they're like, Wow, maybe I should have so many drinks, because my sleep's bad. And so I think there are, like, these adjacent things that data is indirectly, you know, affecting. I mean, there's the direct panel. And what do I do about this and podcasts. I mean, I think podcasts have changed everything, everything. It's like a landscape change in a big way, because I can listen to somebody opine with opinions on different variables, on what I should or shouldn't do. And after I hear alcohol is not good for you from lots of different people, you start to think, well, maybe they're right. Maybe this. Good for me, and I start thinking, I don't need a beer and I don't need hard liquor, and off you go. But that's everything smoking all the way through. So kids are smarter today. They're better educated. They understand that none of my kids really like to drink much. They're not really into it just seems to be the trend of today, and nobody's getting stupid drunk on the streets. I can see, like in the old days when I grew up, everybody used to think it'd be fun to get drunk and be an idiot, but that's kind of gone away a little bit. And I think social media plays a role in that, because they get videoed and they get put up on the screen. Yeah, nobody wants to see me as a drunken foe on the street today. Yeah, a lot of little things like that kind of make make a wave of change. But yeah, it's a good point. Brian, I think it's pretty cool that we're seeing alcohol kind of change. The industry, I'm sure is still performing well, other than in Canada, where they're taking us, us all off the shelves, they already paid bourbon and, yeah, just laughing

Krissy Vann:

like myself,

Unknown:

like 1% of, I think us liquor sales go to Canada. So I was like, Okay, you can have it. Not a big deal. Yeah, it

Krissy Vann:

was, I do enjoy a paper plane here and again and getting it offered with Canadian Club,

Unknown:

our smooth Virginia and Kentucky bourbon.

Krissy Vann:

Yeah, exactly this Canadian was a little disappointed there. Well, as we wrap up the conversation, we're going to do a little round table here. So we'll start with yourself, because you did the musical chair thing. So I know I want you to contribute in the conversation. If you had to place one big bet on fitness in 2025 what would it be? We have more great insights coming up on the podcast, but first a thank you to our sponsor, whether an expansive, multi location enterprise or a boutique club, ABC Ignite, optimizes every aspect of your gym, enabling your team to deliver exceptional experiences to members. Visit them at ABC fitness.com to learn more.

Unknown:

I think listening to a few of the conversations in the bars and restaurants over over the last few days, I think it's going to come down to specialization. It seems that people that are broadly generalizing are having a hard time economically to do that and and you're having a lot of these niche players that, I guess you know, using things like social media, using what the internet allows us to do, you mentioned China selling direct and how that's creating a lot of competition just just going walking around Ursa today, very different to probably 10 years ago, where you've actually got Chinese brands And our brands that used to supply distributors or importers that are now here direct, and they're doing a great job, and they've figured out their marketing. And so I think, you know, really, you've to, you know, probably, I don't know whether you call it a trend, but I think, I think people have got to sort of create their niche and do a really bloody good job and provide great content and and just a fantastic quality product. Because I think, if you're average, I think it's very difficult to keep going with everything else that's going on. So that's probably the big one for me. I would say, Brian. I just think there's a lot of positivity right now. We talked about this at the very beginning of the pod. You know, coming out of COVID was brutal on this industry. Coming out of it was tough, and the ramp up has been slow, but there each year, like even this show, even the HFA show, is more exciting and more energy and more people, and that was the case the previous year, and the previous year, things are moving in the right direction. And there's always up and down with politics and tariffs and all kinds of stuff. But I just think there's a lot of positive momentum. One of the things I'm very encouraged about is that just everyday consumer definition of being fit and being well has really shifted and transitioned from fitness and being fit to Being Well. And it means different things to different people, but it ain't about a six pack anymore. You know? It's about feeling good and sleeping well and eating well. And just think the whole industry, and by industry, I don't mean just fitness, fitness, wellness supplements, all of it are moving in a really positive direction. I think the conversation on how we're driving people into fitness is really gonna change. You touched on this? Andrew Huberman probably has 4 million followers on Instagram. Equinox probably has 250,000 one's been around a whole lot longer than the other good point, the conversations that we're having are adjacent to fitness. Take creatine, and I think every single person, and certainly every child that I have is fascinated by creatine. The conversations that are being started around as a woman, why should I take creatine? Was it to do my lean muscle mass? What does this happen? To just look at, like, protein, if I have one more person tell me how much protein I need to eat. And, yeah, I like protein a lot, but I'm like, I do not want to eat cottage cheese, stuff. Like, I'm unwilling to go there. Like. Yes, I do. This is, like, my worst

Krissy Vann:

nightmare. I don't even make it to a plate. I'm like, Oh, get in there.

Unknown:

Beets for me. I'm like, No, thank you. Says, Well,

Krissy Vann:

okay, well, dinner dates, okay.

Unknown:

But like, I look at this and like, these are the conversations that are having. People starting to say, Wait a second, I'm in perimenopause, or I'm postmenopausal, or in this much protein do I actually need to eat to go in and do this? By the way, what are you going to do when you come into the gym? How am I going to use creatine mocktails? I mean, I'm with you. Wearables. I think 100% have impacted where this is but like, you know, we're prepping mocktail nights at studios these days, and you know what? They're full. We can get enough people in them. So I think we're going to go to adjacent wellness issues that we start to talk about that are going to become the conversation that lets people come and enter into our facilities. That's going to be across the board, and content is king. There is no doubt on that, but it starts the right conversations. The industry is going to continue to thrive. Mark, I'll make mine easy. I think this will be the year of capital raising and exits for some of the major brands who are going to create tremendous wealth and funding for growth. And this is going to be the Barnstorm year, where people really get after I think there's going to be phenomenal growth into this year, and well funded groups moving into 26 and 27 and we're going to explode to a level nobody thought we could achieve as an industry. It's going to be crazy, crazy. That's good. That's what's happening. I see it coming. It's going to be a crazy next couple of years where everybody's going to be going after it, and this conference is going to continue to explode. Why is it driving it mark? What gives you that sort of outside of maybe some of the conversations you're having? But what would you say is behind that statement? Because everything we talked about today points to the consumer understanding health and wellness and recovery is, is the third place home work there maybe no throw work up. Maybe we're second place, working our way up to number one. I think people are starting to recognize that up and down the ladder. And the baby boomers started it, coming out of President Kennedy's physical fitness. And as they aged and created this amazing boom, their children have been raised in a way that fitness, health and wellness is super important. They've seen their parents get after it, and they're getting after it. And we have something we've never had before. Everybody really focused on it, and there's so many varieties of offerings like never before that people are excited about the fact that they don't have to go to a gym to get after they can go to a boutique and specialize. They go to a park and do some cool stuff. They can go out and compete, you know, with all these amazing events now that are out there, rocks, right, high rocks, and everybody right, Spartan, whatever you like to do. There's so much in health and wellness, and everybody's excited about it, and everybody wants to get after it more than ever before. So people used to always say that 15, 20% of the US population would belong to a gym. I used to always tell them that, well, back in the 90s, go way back in San Diego, our population, in our facilities down there, we had like 24 clubs or 25 clubs. In San Diego, our population alone was 38% of every San Diego resident just in our gyms, throw in everybody else, and over half, if not 55% of people belong to gyms part of the culture, part of the culture, beach community, and people loved exercising, and we had almost four out of every 10 adults in just our gym. So I was like, it's not 15 or 20% you don't have a clue. This country exercises and everywhere else I go is the same thing when I travel now, whether I'm someplace abroad, everybody's working out. People are running on the streets. I mean, they used to laugh at me in the 90s if I ran someplace. I was in Italy, running down the street, ah, honked a horn, smoking cigarettes. Yell at me, like, what are you doing? You know, now everybody does it, so I just think we're exploding into a new level. And the variety of offerings we have, and the brilliant people like you three, that are inside our industry, helping our industry grow is going to make the next couple of years probably the best years anybody's ever seen. So if you want to get involved, now's the time to do it. Now's the time to get on the on the train. It's starting to take off in a big way. So that's what I see. Well, you

Krissy Vann:

kind of answered the next question to a degree, we're going to do a round table. I never said last. I said last thing we'll do. And it was going to be the top piece of advice for fitness investors in 2025 but it sounds like get in there. Yeah. I mean,

Unknown:

depending where your passion is, what you love to do, there's so many things to do but find people to talk to, mentors that you want to pick their brains and learn from work underneath great leaders so that you can understand the do. And don't and pick up the nuances, because this is a business with a lot of levers. I think I was mentioned earlier. There could be 25 to 50 levers you have to pull to make it work just right. And it's not easy. It's not easy. You just can't do it in one day. But there's people that figure it out on their own, but if you can find somebody who's great at doing it already, and get underneath them and learn from them, get into their culture, their system, and get to the space that you're passionate about. I really think the next few years are going to be like nothing this industry has ever seen before. I think we're barely scratching the surface. I just think it's going to be outstanding. My opinion, that's

Krissy Vann:

going to bring a lot of people joy to hear you say that top piece of advice from yourself for investors in 2025 oh

Unknown:

my gosh. You know, I'm not a finance person, but, but this is my biggest thing. Is the numbers don't lie. There's a lot of businesses that have gotten by with not necessarily, especially in the physical boutique fitness space, not necessarily great profits. The idea that was okay because they were in scale mode. And I think we've got to look at this very differently. There is no reason that most studios, and certainly in the boutique fitness space, shouldn't be profitable, shouldn't be driving that along, and that should be a priority when you're looking at this brilliant yourself. Brian, I think investors always have a tendency to seek trends. Right? You're not the trends that are going on now, but what's going to be happening in two or three or five years when I want my exit at the end of the day comes down to people. It's about talent, right? And, you know, even in highly competitive spaces where there are tons of people doing the same thing, the really smart, experienced people, you know, if I'm an investor, I want that leader who not only really knows what they're doing and have a great track record, but has the, you know, the kind of collaborative leadership style to attract other talented people, but sophisticated investors know this. Private equity groups are always looking for the best leaders of companies and Vc as well. I think it's all about people and yourself. Matthew, yeah, I guess, building on what everyone else has said, I think you know it is there are these fads and trends that happen throughout the years, and the sophisticated investors, like we were at dinner one last night, that really understands the space, they understand the players, they understand the trends. And then there's people that are looking to probably make a quick turn on that investment, and generally, these seem to be the ones that get, get burnt and like in everything else. But I think it's a very interesting industry, but you but I do think it's it's something you know, whether you're going to look to raise money to develop something, or you're putting money into it. It's really about fully understanding the space. And, you know, you mentioned, you know, understanding the numbers and, and, you know, looking back, there's plenty of examples of whether it's home fitness, you know, it's been at home. Fitness has been around forever, as as have some of these bricks and mortar facilities and, and although the models evolve and the consumer slightly changes that, you know, there's a lot to look back on that you can learn from and almost predict forward. And some of these ideas you can kind of, you can kind of question, how sustainable can some of these things be looking at what happened in the pandemic, and many people got seriously caught out by during that period of time. But I think it's just basic business sense and being a sort of specialist in what you do, as opposed to a generalist, brilliant.

Krissy Vann:

Well, I know during this trade show in particular, your schedules aren't busy at all. So in all seriousness, I really appreciate you sharing the time and space and for sharing your expertise on ATF W. Thank you for having us. Yeah, Meeting adjourned.

Unknown:

Awesome.

Krissy Vann:

You've just listened to the ATF W podcast hosted by Krissy Vann. This special edition of the fitness business podcast was brought to you by ABC fitness. They turn the vision you have for your fitness business into reality, discover their technology solutions for personal trainers, coaches, fitness studios and traditional gems and health clubs. At ABC fitness.com we have new podcast episodes weekly featuring industry thought leaders and influencers. Be sure to hit like and subscribe so you never miss an episode and remember, stay fit, stay informed, and keep your fitness business in shape. You.

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