117. Two Competitors Walk Into a Conference… (feat. Ange Davies)

Two competitors walk into a conference... and instead of sizing each other up, they swapped pricing, shared strategies and became each other's biggest cheerleaders. 

True story ;) 

This week Candice is joined by Ange Davies from Mind Your Grit, and they're getting into why collaboration might be the single best thing you do for your career, your business, and honestly, your life.

In This Episode:

Candice and Ange unpack one of the most common (and quietly costly) patterns in workplaces and businesses - defaulting to competition when collaboration would serve you way much better. 

Whether you're running your own business or working alongside colleagues every day, this one's for you.

You'll hear them get into:

• Why people default to competition instead of collaboration 
•  The hidden cost of a competitive mindset in workplaces 
•  What true day-to-day collaboration actually looks like 
•  What’s really going on when someone feels threatened by a peer 
•  How trust is built (and broken) in professional relationships 
•  Why their own relationship has never felt competitive - even in the same industry 
•  What to do if you’re stuck in comparison mode right now

This is a straight conversation about fear, insecurity, and what becomes possible when you stop protecting yourself from people who could actually help you grow.

Because most people aren’t stuck because they lack talent.
They’re stuck because they’re competing in rooms where they could be collaborating.

Connect with Ange Davies - an incredible human!

https://www.instagram.com/mind.your.grit/ 

Angela Davies is a leadership, wellbeing and performance consultant and speaker with over 16years’ experience in corporate leadership, HR and senior financial services roles. Founder of Mind Your Grit, Angela helps individuals and organisations strengthen leadership and performance without compromising health, blending evidence-based psychology with movement and nervous system regulation. She is also the host of the Work and Wellness podcast and is currently completing a Masters in Psychology.

🎧 If this episode made you think, laugh, or question something - send it to someone who needs a little permission to do life differently. 

📲 Screenshot, tag me @candiceharvey__, and let me know what hit home.

Oh and check out my FUN website for all my services: www.candiceharvey.com 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:02

So here's something that nobody really talks about, and that's how much competition is actually costing you. And I'm not talking about the healthy kind of competition. Today, I'm actually talking about that quiet, subconscious kind. The kind where someone in a similar field asks what you charge and you just go a little bit vague. Or where a colleague gets a promotion and there's something in your gut that just tightens, where you hold back that one piece of advice that could genuinely help someone because what if it helps them too much? We do it in business, we do it in the office, we do it with colleagues that we actually like, and we do it in our personal lives without even realizing it. And here's the shaker. Nobody taught us to do this. It just sort of happened. Like somewhere along the way, we started seeing the person next to us as a little bit of a threat instead of as an ally. You know, the colleague that was gunning for the same promotion or the business owner in the same space or the friend who seems to just freaking well have it all together. And it's quietly getting in the way of just so much. Like it's getting in the way of opportunities. It's getting in the way of relationships, growth, joy, because the scarcity mindset is a pretty deep one. Like someone else's win can sometimes feel like there's just less room for yours. So we put our guards up, we keep our cards really close, we pretend that we don't know the answer or we're just too busy to help. And whether that's in a boardroom, a team meeting, or a DM that we just never send. And when I say it like that, I feel like it sounds super backwards. And also, I'm thinking that you're probably listening to this going, oh, that resonates. Like I've done that. Of course, you have. We all have, it's totally okay, you're not a bad person. But today on the podcast, I have invited my new friend, Ange Davies. I don't know when she stops being new, but currently she still feels new. But she is joining me today. Ange and I only met a few months ago at a conference that we both attended and we knew no one. However, we clicked. And it's a connection and a relationship that neither of us have had in a long time, or dare I say, ever. Now, Ange lives in Pottsville, New South Wales. I live in Brisbane, Queensland. We both run our own businesses, we both lead teams, same industry, same age. And when we met, we could have played it safe. Like we could have put our guard up, we could have kept it very surface level. We could have actually even felt threatened by each other's cuteness, but we didn't. Instead, within minutes, we were swapping pricing, we were sharing strategies, we were trading ideas on proposals, we were cheering on each other's wins. And absolutely, some people could have looked at us and just thought, hey, you two, you're kind of competitors. Like, what are you doing? But we never actually saw it that way, like not for a second. We were aware that people could do that in a similar situation, but we never lent away from each other. If anything, we just lent in. And in these past few months, we have helped each other more than any group coaching program or mastermind ever has. So whether you're building your own thing or showing up to someone else's business every single day, my nine-to-fibers, this episode today is for you. It's about what happens when you flip the switch from competition to collaboration and why that one shift might be the best thing you ever do for your career, your business, and honestly, your life. So welcome to the Shake Up Podcast, Ange.

SPEAKER_01 3:12

Thank you. I am so excited to be here. And I I'm happy to still be new. I think, I don't know, when are we not new? Who knows? Six months, twelve months.

SPEAKER_00 3:21

I know. I mean, I say that, but we talk like what, nearly every day now. So most days there's something we want to talk about. Um, but it hasn't been long. And that's that's the that's the point, I think. But it was what, a week or week two where you and I started talking about this collaboration over competition. We were pretty excited to get on the podcast and have this chat.

SPEAKER_01 3:42

Yeah, I think it's exciting because it's unusual. And I think particularly for women, it's unusual, Candace. So that's that's why I'm so excited to talk about it.

SPEAKER_00 3:50

That's so true, actually. Oh my gosh. So we are gonna go through a few different questions here and we are gonna answer them potentially differently, potentially the same. But to start with, beautiful Ange, I might just get you to introduce yourself. Like, who are you? What do you do, and why do you do it?

SPEAKER_01 4:06

Amazing. So, Ange Davis, as you said, I own a business called Mind Your Grit. And essentially, I help teams achieve sustainable high performance. So, really, it's about sustainable, which is the most important thing to me, because I do believe we can all perform at a high level, but it's got an expiry day if we don't focus on that sustainability. So I do that through working with leaders, helping them be great leaders because we've all had. Can I swear on this podcast?

SPEAKER_00 4:32

Yes, you can. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 4:34

We've all had shitty leaders that has impacted our performance and our well-being. So I think having great leaders is really important. And then I teach individuals the skills to look after their mental health and well-being so that they can really thrive. So through both of those things, sustainable high performance, because we spend too bloody long at work not to feel like we're enjoying ourselves.

SPEAKER_00 4:53

My God. Like, see, everyone listening who knows me and what I do. Like, do you get it? Do you get why I met Angie and I was like, I love you instantly. I was like, I love you. Um, and then again, for those of you who don't know me, I'm a speaker and a workshop facilitator, and I help people in the three most important areas of anyone's life, which is energy, clarity, and action. I do that through team workshops, through keynotes and em-seeing conferences and events. However, the most important thing, again, when I when I met Angie and it just oozes through because it's obviously her experience, but she has got so much knowledge around all of this as well. Um, but it is that sustainability. You know, it's all well and good attending a workshop or attending an event or a seminar or what, and we've all attended gabillions of it before, but it's about learning things in a way that is going to last. And it's a way learning things as well. And I remember the very first thing that I, when we were talking about, it's like there's a lot of things that we teach that are very simple, very simple, right? Like we're, you know, Ange and I are a lot of things, but we're not rocket science as scientists, obviously. Um, but a lot of the things as well, it's not necessarily easy. So we definitely connected on that as well.

SPEAKER_01 5:57

Yeah. Simple, not easy is one of my favorite statements, right? Because uh, you know, I think someone said to me recently, the basics work when you work the basics, but often we know what we need to do, but we just don't do it.

SPEAKER_00 6:09

Yeah, we're annoying like that. We are annoying if you think about it. Yeah, like we know it, you know, relatively intelligent, and we're just not doing the do. So, like I said today on this episode, it is gonna be a little bit different. We are gonna go through a few really exciting questions that are all around the benefits of collaboration over competition. And you may have listened to the intro and just thought, I don't know if this is me. Oh, I guarantee it has come up for you at some point, and it is just getting in the way, sneakily getting in the way. So we are gonna both answer these questions. And knowing Ange and I, there might be some similarities. We do spend a lot of time saying same to each other, a lot, same. Yes, same. Uh, however, there was one thing that Ange was like not same to when she was actually going through, I think it was what my episode on the Shake Up podcast just recently, and it was the 10 ways I live my life that aren't normal. And Ange was like, look, I agree with a lot of them, but not the dog thing. Like, I'm not, I'm not hitting the dog. Loves dogs, and this is not to say, listeners, that I hate dogs. We've talked about this before. Please refer to the episode. But Angie is absolutely a dog lover, aren't you, babe?

SPEAKER_01 7:12

If I could have a property and adopt all the dogs, that's what I would do.

SPEAKER_00 7:15

But not just one, you want like a lot of dogs.

SPEAKER_01 7:18

You know, my job in university was working in a pet shop. That was my job in a farm pet shop. Yeah, I looked after little.

SPEAKER_00 7:25

I just want to cover my nose. It would have stank. Angie did it stink.

SPEAKER_01 7:30

Uh imagine, you know, 18-year-old Ange coming in, possibly hung over after a night out on a Sunday morning at 6 a.m. to clean ahead of the shop opening. Yeah, it was resilience building to say the least.

SPEAKER_00 7:45

Sounds like an absolute bloody dream. Oh my gosh. Okay, all right. Let's see, this is what happens with you, and I'll get excited. Okay, let's let's start here because this is something that I see everywhere, and I'm sure you do too. But people kind of, and actually I love how you were saying at the beginning, like especially women, that is a very important topic, and I'm sure that's going to come up at some point. But people tend to size each other up a little bit, right? Like there's that comparing, there's that like quietly competing, even when no one's actually asked them to compete. But I guess the first question that I want us to really unpack is why do you think so many people, Ange, are defaulting to competition instead of collaboration, and especially at work?

SPEAKER_01 8:25

I think there's a level of fear, right? I think most of our behaviors as humans often come from a fear uh base, whatever that fear might be. But I do think also workplaces kind of build it into us, you know, there is a pyramid structure of an organization, opportunities naturally get thinner the higher up you go. And I do think that there's just a natural fear that if you get the opportunity, then I can't also have the opportunity. And I think that's often where it comes from for a lot of people. And they don't, I I don't believe that I actually have a completely different perspective, but I think that that's what is taught to a lot of people all throughout their working life. And so that's kind of where it comes from, I reckon.

SPEAKER_00 9:12

Yeah, I agree. And I I think that, you know, a lot of people have been taught that success is limited. And I don't know where that sort of has come from, but it really is that feeling of like similar to what you're saying, but if someone is winning, then there's somehow less left for other people, you know, like it's not a let's all do this together. And I don't know when it was early in my business where I remember a mentor sort of saying something around the area of like there's abundance, you know, like there's so much for everybody. And I don't think a lot of people realize that, you know. So I think workplaces especially become very much full of people who are protecting ideas and they're just guarding these opportunities, they're comparing titles. Oh my God, like both of us with background in HR. Like I just remember the amount of meetings that I would have with people who were just so hung up on titles, you know, or obviously salaries and recognition instead of realizing how much faster and better things move when people are actually working together, you know? And I really do think, especially in workplaces all over, like competition has its place. Like I think that it really can encourage people to be better, but it is that unhealthy competition in workplaces that exactly like what you were saying, Angie, it does come from fear, you know, it's that fear of, well, I'll be overlooked or fear of not being good enough, which is pretty standard for everybody, but fear that someone else's strengths somehow diminish mine, you know? And I actually remember when I worked in Gladstone many freaking moons ago, so it was 2011 and I was there for three years, and I was a HR lead, and there were two other HR leads. We're all on different projects, responsible for different projects. And it just so happens the two other HR leads were dudes, right? And I also knew that they were earning significantly more than I was, which was a problem. Um, but one of them in particular wasn't, let's just say, wasn't that competent, right? And he used to always contact me, getting like asking me questions, asking me to rewrite his emails, asking me to help him prep for meetings. And I remember it got to a point where I guess it was the word competitive, but I was pissed off about it too. But I started sort of saying, no, I was like, I'm not gonna help you, I'm not gonna read that. I'm too busy to look. Like I was lying, but I was like, I can't look at that right now. And looking back at it now, where I was feeling competitive, you know, it was this real like, if I help you, you're just gonna keep earning more money and I'm not gonna be able to catch up. Like it was a horrible place for me to be because I look at it now and I'm like, it didn't affect him. Like if I said no, he just went and asked somebody else. Like it's fine. Yeah. But for me not sharing this information, me feeling super like I'm not gonna share what I know to make you look good. It was, it was the behavior was affecting myself, you know, the way I was showing up. Like I wasn't actually proud of that. And I think that can kind of happen a lot. I mean, it's the the crap thing about being in HR is you know how much everyone earns, right? So that used to piss me off. I'd be like, you're rubbish and you're being paid more than me. Awesome. But I think like the best teams that I've actually worked with don't operate like that, how I used to a very long time ago. They know that collaboration actually creates a lot of momentum. And I think that they share ideas, they back each other, they challenge each other, all that sort of stuff. Because, you know, when one person actually grows, the whole team gets better. I think that's where the good stuff actually happens.

SPEAKER_01 12:25

For sure. But I I mean I do want to say about that example though, Candace, there are people who take the piss as well, you know, and I think you know, we can't sort of overlook that. Like Old Mate, who wasn't necessarily competent and who was asking you, you know, maybe he also wasn't going about things the right way either. And he's probably gotten away with a lot of taking other people's stuff. So, you know, I would say he was also being competitive, but using it to his advantage, and maybe I don't know, being a bit utilitive or, you know, so riding on the coattails of others. And so I do think it's okay to say no to that as well. Like I think two things can be true. You can be collaborative, but you can also not allow yourself to be taken advantage of by people who are secretly competitive.

SPEAKER_00 13:12

100%. Yeah. I think there is a little bit of a fine line, you know. I think that maybe if I did all my time back again, it probably would be more of a conversation with my manager, maybe, because I don't think I even had those sort of competit conversations, you know. It was like I knew that I wasn't being paid enough, but there was that fear that you were talking about as well, where it was like maybe they'll just give me the flick if I become a nuisance. And this is a completely different topic, I think that we would we could talk about another time. But yeah, I think you're right. And that's also why you're my friend, because you make me feel better about the decisions that I made in the past. So I appreciate that a lot. So if we think about the competitive mindset though, right? Like, I guess the cost of the competitive mindset, like what do you think that is as well?

SPEAKER_01 13:54

I mean, first and foremost, I think it's a waste of energy. Like, what are the waste we have I view that we have a finite amount of energy throughout our day and our year and et cetera. And I think why shouldn't we be placing that energy around all of us winning rather than worrying about what someone else is doing, you know? And I just really think that if the tide rises or the boats rise with it, so let's put our energy into lifting the collective because I also think it reflects really like people see it, Candace. You know what I mean? Like we think that people don't see it, but they see it and they sense it. And I actually don't think it does anything for your internal brand if you're inside a corporate or if you're external. People can sense if you're operating like that, and over time it's actually gonna cost more, I think, because people don't want to work with you, you know, like they'll see that behavior and they don't want to work with you. I've worked with people like that in the past, and I just think I don't want to work with people like that. It just feels like you're always really having to be on your guard around people like that. So I think there is a long-term cost, and being overly competitive like that at the start might get people ahead in the initial term, you know, like they might get the opportunities, they might get, you know, extra on top of the people who were not. But I think over the long term, you become someone that is potentially untrustworthy and also that people don't want to work with. And to succeed, people have to want to work with you.

SPEAKER_00 15:24

Yeah, 100%. And I think there is, there's something super attractive about people who will just share very openly. And we're gonna talk about that a little bit later in the episode with you and I, because that's we have not stopped doing that. You know, it's just like ask me a question and I'm an open book. And there's something just so, I don't know, it like pulls you closer to want to work with them, to be with them, to do great stuff with that person. But I think uh like similarly to what you were sort of saying, that the the cost of having this competitive mindset does come down to potential. And I think it's actually a really sad thing when you when you do look at some teams who are, you know, sitting on brilliant ideas, or they are really smart people who are just not opening up about huge opportunities, whatever it is, things that just aren't coming to life, I suppose, because people are just too busy protecting themselves instead of backing each other. And that's like, you know, sometimes like the amount of teams that you and I work with, and you can sort of see it. You can see when I ask questions and people are biting their tongue, or they do the little side eyes and they don't want to speak up, they don't want to say things because of, I don't know, maybe what they're thinking is brilliant and for whatever reason they just don't feel safe enough. And I think there is that that trustworthy part too, to be able to be themselves or feel like something's backfired in the past or whatever it is. But I think the result of being in a competitive feeling environment is like exhaustion. Like it's tiring.

SPEAKER_01 16:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:44

You know, it's not, I think that that's again the fun thing about you and I is that it's we're getting a lot of energy from the relationship that we've got with each other. We don't have to protect, can I say this to Ange? Can I not? It's like, let's just, you know, be completely open and it's refreshing. We want to talk to each other as opposed to, oh shit, what's she asking me now? It's never kind of like that, you know? And I think that with teams again who are competitive, they're they start disengaging, you know, like confidence drops, innovation disappears. I was working with a team recently and it was like the CEO was really encouraging innovation. And it's like, well, if they are feeling like they're not in it together, that's that's just not going to happen, you know? So I think similarly, like you said, the the saddest part is that people are busting for connection, people are busting for support. They are wanting to collaborate. And it's just really making sure that we're not still feeling like we have to prove ourselves all the time. Because I think that's when it's getting in the way of your greatest potential, but also working as a part of an incredible team as well.

SPEAKER_01 17:40

For sure, for sure. And I I mean, I think leaders need to do a lot to foster this as well, right? Because I've worked in organizations where leaders foster competition like this and it creates an environment that is extremely competitive. And it's like I've never watched the Hunger Games, but it's what I would imagine it would be like, i.e., if I win, then you can't win, you know? And so I think leaders have a lot to do with the environment that they create as well. And people's past behaviors, like it's really hard to trust people if you have been trusting in the past and you've had people take advantage of that. So I think there's a lot of layers to why people are competitive and why perhaps they don't always trust that they can be open.

SPEAKER_00 18:23

Yeah, I agree. So I guess we've talked about that competition isn't that great in the workplace, but I guess what does collaboration actually look like day to day? Like when you think of collaboration, especially in the workplace, what does that look like for you?

SPEAKER_01 18:40

I think it starts with psychological safety. I think there has to be a level of safety within a team to feel like they can collaborate. But I do want to be clear because I worked in banking during the Royal Commission, and one of the things that was found was that the organization I worked for were too collaborative, i.e., they wouldn't have difficult conversations or call things out if they felt like something wasn't right. And so I want to really make the distinction that I do think collaboration is also feeling comfortable enough to say, hey, actually you're overstepping or that behaviour's not okay. Like that is collaboration as well. I actually think competition is if you don't say something because you're hoping that person will fail or someone else will fail. So I think collaboration is not just helping lift people up, but it's also calling out when you're seeing something that you feel like is not right as well, because you've got the best interest of everyone around you and the team at heart. And so I think it's an important distinction because collaboration is not just a love-in, you know, it's not just like pumping each other up and you know everyone being happy and never saying anything. It is actually having those difficult conversations so the team can continue to lift and grow trust. And that's what I think is at the heart of collaboration.

SPEAKER_00 19:50

I actually love that. I love the way you sort of said that, Ange, as well, because it makes me sort of think that it's it's not a cop-out, kind of, but it's super easy to be competitive, you know, because you basically just say nothing and shut down or you're an arsehole behind someone's back or whatever it is, right? But to actually be collaborative, and like you said, it's not just being nice in meetings, like that's just not what collaborating collaborating is, but it's like it's genuinely wanting the best outcome. And I think that's a really cool thing, as opposed to just like personal credit, because we've probably all worked with that person or we know that person, even outside of work in our personal lives, who loves to sort of pump themselves up and be that person that's that's the best or has done the best. But it's actually about like what what is going to be the best outcome for all of us as well, you know. So I just think day to day in terms of collaboration, like it does look like sharing information without withholding it, just so that you feel like you're valuable. Like, you know, again, the amount of times in teams that I worked with where people have been around for a really long time and they want to be that person who knows it all, you know. Like I'm sure we all know that one person where it's like, you know, go and ask Roger. Love that I said a man's name just out of whatever. Go and ask Roger because he's been here forever and he will probably know. And then you go and ask Roger, and he's like this closed-off person. And you're like, why are you not helping me, Roger? Like, why can't we all be in this together? Because he actually loves being valuable, you know, and I think that can be really, really tricky. But I think collaboration as well, it's about, I don't know, asking, asking for help really early instead of struggling on your own, you know, it is that vulnerability, which I think you and I have done really well in the time that we've we've known each other too. Um, giving someone recognition, like pumping, pumping people up, um, bringing different people into conversations, you know, like really involving other people. Um, but like you said, I and I really agree, it's actually about challenging people as well. So it's being really secure enough to say, like, I don't know, or, you know, you're better at this than I am, or what do you think? But it's, I think there's a lot of energy that comes from collaboration, you know, and I think that at the end of it, people just move so much faster because there's trust, you know, and problems are solved so much quicker when people are collaborating, as opposed to that Argy Bargy. Competitive feel. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:02

Yeah. I mean, I think competition is inherently selfish and collaboration is inherently selfless. You know, you're thinking about the outcome of the whole when you're collaborating. You're thinking the outc about the outcome of self when you're being competitive, is my perspective.

SPEAKER_00 22:18

Great perspective, babe. Nailed it. Mic drop. Love that one. No, that's so good. Love it. So if we are, if we are super honest as well, I don't believe that competition kind of appears out of nowhere. And exactly like you were saying, you're like it sort of does come from somewhere. Like there's usually something deeper going on or underneath it. What do you think is really going on when someone is feeling threatened by a peer? Let's just say.

SPEAKER_01 22:42

Yeah, I mean, I think it sort of touches back to what we were saying at the start. And my perspective is that it comes from some sort of fear. I always think about the above and below the line framework. It's sort of years and years old, right? It came from that book, Rich Dad, Poor Dad. Renee Brown's talked about it. But I think ultimately when we're feeling competitive or threatened by a peer, we're naturally being pushed below the line by one of our fears. And I think it manifests itself in that hero, victim, villain, right? So when someone's being competitive, either they're the hero, they step forward, I'll do it, I can take it all on, everyone else is incompetent. Or you could be the victim. Why isn't anyone giving me any opportunities? Why do they get all the opportunities? That's also inherently competitive or villain, i.e., you throw other people under the bus to get yourself ahead. And I honestly believe that all of this stems from some sort of fear that the person is holding. It could be a fear from when we're kids. You know what I mean? Like you could have done your cross-country race and never come first, or you know, gone in the race for school captain and you never got it. Whatever it is, there is often an underlying fear. Now, you know, are some people just dicks sometimes? But I do, I do think that it does come from an underlying fear. Yeah. That's where I think it all stems from.

SPEAKER_00 24:02

Yeah, I agree. I always just think it has something to do with the other person. Like, even when I'm talking about my Gladstone example, like, yes, this guy nearly said his name was a bit of a dick. Like he just was. He definitely wasn't qualified to be in the role. It gave me the shits, like all that sort of stuff. He just had no idea what he was doing. Bless his little cotton socks. Um, but I think that it really did have a lot to do with me at the time as well, you know, just the way that I was handling it, the way that I held myself, you know, and it's, I think that's why I bang on so much about self-awareness that it when we are having those moments, especially in the workplace, that feel triggering, that feel a little bit like, oh, why did my, you know, hairs on my arms just prick up then? Why did that piss me off? Why am I so agitated by you specifically? You know, is it because they're just, they seem to have an answer for everything and they're absolutely awesome and and all that sort of stuff as well? Or is there something that I need to be able to tidy up within within myself? And I really do think, you know, the relationship that we have with ourselves is a relationship that we have with other people. And so it's constantly like, what is it that they are actually teaching us that and it's annoying, right? Like, because then it's all about self-responsibility. Usually it's not them, it's us. And we want to be able to blame this dickhead and say it's all you, and if you weren't here, it wouldn't be a problem. But it is still something that we need to be able to tidy up within ourselves. And I think that's really important. But especially if you are seeing someone that we are classifying as a high performer. And I know that I've worked with a bucket load of them. I see a bucket load of them in the workshops. Like you, you can spot it, can't you, Ange? Like the the people that are the smartest and the high performers, like you can see it. And it's it's actually you can be one of two people sometimes. You can like repel and lean away from them and be like, oh my God, eye rolling and they're they're so annoying in this, or you get to lean in. And even though they might be a very different person to you, but let's like, what can we learn from them? Like, how have they got to where they are and how does their brain think and all that sort of stuff? I think is I've when I look back at my career of working in HR for as long as I did, I think I missed a lot of those opportunities sometimes by feeling like the fear took over a lot more than I wish it did, if I was having more of a yeah, and we put a wall up. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:01

Yeah. I think I think we put a wall up when we're feeling a fear or someone's, you know, triggering something within us. I think there's an opportunity to approach situations like that with a real curiosity, though, not just for ourselves, not just a curiosity about where it's coming from, but I think also a curiosity of why are they being like that? Why are they getting the attention? Where's it coming from?

SPEAKER_00 26:23

Yeah, yeah. I love it. Which requires a bit more work, right? Than just being pissed off and bitching about someone. It's actually like what's behind it, what's underneath it as well. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:33

And presence, because when we're rushing through work and feeling overwhelmed and busy, we're not present enough to pause and discern, hold on a minute, why am I reacting this way? And hold on a minute, how could I be curious to learn from that person or to open their eyes to something that they might be doing that they might not even realize because they're operating out of a fear response as well.

SPEAKER_00 26:54

Yeah, love it. Self-awareness, like massive, right? Like, and without, and you can spot it. Like that's another thing I spot all the time. I'm like, they're self-aware and they are not even close, right? And it's the people that are, they are the ones who are going home at night, feeling like they can exhale, not feeling like they're holding on to something that's out of their control. Like there just comes so much from from doing the work as well.

SPEAKER_01 27:16

For sure. I do want to touch on one thing on self-awareness though, because like I have seen in the past where people have uh weaponized their self-awareness. Look, I know I'm like this, but then they still continue to be like that anyway. You know, so I think self-awareness without action is just a whole lot of thinking about yourself. So you've got to take action once you're self-aware. We can't just weaponize our self-awareness and say, I know like I'm like this, but I'm still gonna act like it. Yeah, like we've got to make change.

SPEAKER_00 27:43

Yeah, it's it's like they've dipped their toe in the self-awareness and they haven't really fully read to the end of the book. You know, that's when I sort of see that. I'm like, you've you got all excited about the stuff that's all about you, and then you don't, you have no idea how it applies to real life. So very good point, babe. Read the whole book, read the whole book. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:59

Finish till the end.

SPEAKER_00 28:00

And I think that we touched on this a little bit. You and I have talked about this quite a bit as well, but none of this actually works without trust, right? Like you actually you just you can't collaborate with people that you don't trust. Full stop the end. And it is a big topic, but what do you actually think builds trust between people at work, especially when there is a bit of an overlap in roles or even in strengths?

SPEAKER_01 28:22

I think it does require a little bit of vulnerability. And the way that I view building trust is I give a little bit, and then that person gives a little bit, and then I give a little bit more, then the person gives a little bit more. And then slowly that trust is built over time because trust is not built by just giving everything and hoping that the person also responds with that, right? Because that's also how you can get taken advantage of. So I view trust as like you give a bit that you're comfortable with, you see that reciprocated, and then slowly over time it compounds because you've seen the action. And I think doing what you say you're going to do is the number one way to build trust with people, you know, like you can say whatever you want to the cows come home, but unless that's replicated in action, then it's really hard to build trust. And I think trust can also be taken away much more quickly than it can be built. And so it's about being really mindful around when you are saying something, you've got to do it. And if you can't do it, being really open and honest and saying, hey, I know I said I do that, but this is the reason why I haven't done it, because it's like you just exponentially drop off a cliff. It's like snakes and ladders, right? Slowly, slowly, we're building our way up the snakes and ladders board. If you do something to erode trust, you take that snake all the way back down to the start and you've got to start building that trust again. So I think little by little, and then that you know, that trust just starts to exponentially grow, is the way that I think about building trust.

SPEAKER_00 29:50

I totally agree. I mean, I don't, I don't enjoy that human beings are wired that way, you know, that it it is these sort of small moments and repeated moments and behaviors and how we continue to show up that builds trust and builds trust, and that one thing can happen and it does snakes and ladder it and you go all the way down. Like it's it's annoying that that's what happens, but it it absolutely does. But I think that the really cool learning or lesson in this is that relationships are just, they're not something to just take easy or lightly. Like they're just not. Like, especially if you are, you know, really serious about this person or doing a really great job at work or making sure that your team has really brilliant outcomes for the for the organization, whatever your goal actually is, is that anyone that you really do interact with, it is about showing up and being the best version of yourself, you know, being the person that you would trust, being the person that you would like to actually work with. And I've been talking about this quite a bit lately as well, where it's like, do you, do you actually, if you were another person, would you love to spend time with that person? Would you be open with them? Would you be honest with them? Would you be doing what you say that you're you're gonna do as well, which I think is is really, really, really important. I think that as well when your roles are feeling like they are overlapping and when trust, you know, the trust does grow, but people can stop seeing each other as a threat and they actually start seeing each other as strengths. And I do think that that's something that you and I saw in each other as well, is that you can look at it and go, oh, hang on, we're doing the same thing, we do the same work, we're similar sort of people, but hang on, we have very different strengths. And that is a really cool thing because I actually, one of my workshops that I run is called Strengths Field Future, and it's all about helping everyone in the team realize like, what comes easy to you all individually? Like, what is it? Because we all have very different strengths. You know, there's different things that people show up and it's like that took no energy from me whatsoever. And other people will look at it and go, oh, what? So I think it's it's also realizing that people are so different and allow them to be different and kind of use that, which sounds a bit manipulative, but it's like knowing that if you all have these different strengths, the way that you can work together is only a great thing because you're all different as well.

SPEAKER_01 31:55

For sure. And I think, you know, I don't think it's manipulative. I think it's like, hey, we've got a collective goal that we're trying to achieve. So let's achieve it in the most energetically sound way possible. I think the other thing I want to say around, you know, the snakes and ladder is that just because sometimes it can go back if we erode trust, repair is actually really important. And if we can repair a mistake that we make well and honestly, it can take you back to the top of that snake. And so I think that's important too, because we're all human, right? No one is perfect. Sometimes we make a mistake and we're like, you know what? Actually, I shouldn't have done that. Or, you know, in hindsight, I can absolutely see how maybe that eroded some trust between us. But how we repair and have a conversation is equally important. And I think I think it can take us back up to the top of that snake if we do it really well.

SPEAKER_00 32:45

Yeah, and and higher, you know. I even know just recently with a friend of mine as well, we had a really honest conversation about something that had happened a couple of months ago. And it actually blew me away the fact that she A brought it up, but that she handled it so beautifully. And all it sort of said to me was like, this relationship's important to me, Candace. So I'm gonna have this uncomfortable conversation with you. And I walked away from it and I was like, oh my God, I love her even more than I did before because of the way that she handled that and the way that we had this really honest conversation. And so there was, there was a little bit of a dip that was going on there, but because of acknowledging it and the way that she repaired it, exactly like you said, it bounced us back even higher. And I think that that is something that I don't know if it's we can sometimes get a little bit lazy with our relationships and just feel like we can't be bothered having that tough conversation or, you know, yes, I did something wrong in that meeting, but I can't be bothered, like let's just not worry about it and let's just move on. No, be bothered. You know, if there was anything that went on where you feel like you weren't, for whatever reason, you're human, mate. Like you might not have been the best version of you or whatever went on. But if you feel like there's something that requires a follow-up conversation, or I didn't articulate myself well, or sorry I didn't acknowledge you, or whatever it is, like it's actually worth it at the end of the day, I think too.

SPEAKER_01 33:56

For sure. And it's not easy. And I always say when I'm speaking to leaders, you can say, hey, I don't know how to have this conversation, but I want you to know that I'm having it because I care about you and I want the outcome to be good. So I'm gonna have it. I might not have it perfectly, but I want you to know my intent coming into this is that I care about you and that's why I'm having the conversation. And so I think, you know, when you start a conversation like that, it can only go well because at least the person knows you're coming from a place of care, even if you might have done something that, you know, wasn't the best.

SPEAKER_00 34:28

Yeah. Yeah. I love that. It's so one of those moments where I was like, same. Like I remember, you know, the amount of conversations I have to have with managers when I was working in HR who would come up to me and have to have a conversation with one of their employees, and they would just be like, Can you do it? And I would say no. Um, and I would help them to do it though, you know, and it it was it's allowed to be clunky. And I think that's what I even got from you just speaking then. Like it doesn't have to be articulate and beautiful, and you know, you don't have to have no fear or no anxiety going into it. Like all of that is totally okay. And I used to even say, like, fumble your way through it and go, I'm really uncomfortable having this conversation, but I'm gonna do it because it matters and it's important and I want us to be able to work really well together and and this is it. And you know, and they sort of look at you going, oh my God, I can start a conversation like that. Yeah, you can. Like let it be, let it be clunky. Let them know that this is not easy for you, but that you you give a shit, you know? And I think even with that, regardless of what comes next, it's like trust is just being something that's like, oh, this this is worth it. Like this relationship and investing in this relationship is is worth it. Otherwise, people just opt out very quickly.

SPEAKER_01 35:30

For sure. And I think then it creates a space where people feel like they can have a tough conversation, but do it in a way that's not perfect as well, you know. So I think it opens up that space because people think they have to handle everything perfectly in fear of it going wrong. And so I think if someone starts with that, it just creates a space for everyone to try and have more difficult conversations and they build trust. Every difficult conversation builds trust.

SPEAKER_00 35:54

Yeah, I agree. My God, I love it. So let's just everyone be clunky and messy and wobbly and and it'll be a better place for it, right? Because the alternative is not saying anything. So I I totally agree. So let's talk about you and I, my friend. Let's talk about us because, like we've sort of said on paper, there could be people who would be like, Oh, you guys are pretty close with the work that you do, similar work, similar space, similar cuteness. Why do you actually think with you and I that it has never felt competitive for us? What do you reckon?

SPEAKER_01 36:23

I think we were both. I mean, I think it started from us actually having a lot of similarities, but in a way that connected us. You know what I mean? I think, you know, in what we do, in our age, you know, we don't have kids, which is unusual, like it's quite unusual. There were just a few things that I think connected us at the start, and that ultimately led us to feel like we were in a safe space, is my perspective, where we could share little bits of information. And then I think because we communicated regularly, that trust building happened quickly because each time we shared, we shared a little bit more. And so it's like that snakes and ladders game happened quite quickly because we were continuously sharing a little bit more and more and more, you know. And I think you know, we talked about pricing, which is a weirdly taboo topic. You know, I come from banking, and so I'm used to talking about money, it doesn't bother me, but pricing is this weird, weird conversation. Uh, and then I just think it's about opening up a little bit more and just being brave, right? Because it is brave to share with someone that you've just met and you just give it a crack. I don't know. I I feel like the initial uh similarities that they had that we had sort of helped us bond around those, and then that allowed that. That's my perspective. Yeah. But there's also some things that it feels unexplainable, and I'm not sure why.

SPEAKER_00 37:48

It's just like I love you, full stop the end. That was kind of it. It happened so quickly as well, because I I think we we got plonked beside each other, so we're sitting beside each other, so you have to say hello, how are you? What's your name? What do you do? Like we had to do the standard. And I think you asked me first what I do. So I started explaining what I do, and when I asked you, you were kind of like, uh, yeah, like similar, pretty much similar. And I remember there was that moment where I was like, oh God, like we're sitting beside each other, we do the similar sort of stuff. Like I'm I'm human as well, right? There was that moment where I was like, oh my gosh. And I think it's the way that you actually explained it before, where we were kind of without realizing it now, because that would be weird if we were like, you know, analyzing it when you're having a relationship or starting a relationship with someone, but we were sort of you test each other in the beginning. Like you sort of just do. And I think you're right. It was like we were, we were sharing, we were in a space where we were wanting, we're at like a you know, business conference. So we were wanting to learn, we were not wanting to kind of hold things, you're wanting to make the most of the time that you've got there. But we were doing this bravery thing, but then for the other person, we were also creating safety. And I think that's where it just kept going backwards and forwards. It was like, well, you be brave and then I'll create safety, and then I'm gonna be brave and you create safety. And we just kept doing that back with each other and just have constantly. So it's made, it's meant that conversations, bigger conversations, like you said, about what do you charge for certain things that, you know, weirdly, society just doesn't talk about it. And I'm reading Emma Greed's book at the moment where she does talk about money and how we need to start talking about it so much more openly than what we do because men do and women don't, and it's weird. And so you and I have been doing that and it's been so refreshing as well. But it kind of got to a point where it's like, well, if we're talking about money, I'm pretty sure everything is kind of out there. Like, let's just talk about all of it, which has just been so, so, so nice. But um, yeah, I don't know. I think it also is like this common feeling that you and I haven't we've talked about it where, you know, I can't do all the workshops in Australia, Ange. Like I can't do them, you know. I could try. What do you mean? Give it a red hot crack. But I don't think every team out there I can work with. And I I like we joke about that, but I I think some people forget about that when they're in the competitive space where it's like, oh, you do the same. Okay, I'm not gonna say anything. It's like, oh, shut up. Like there's so many gigs out there, so many people out there. Like you can still have incredible work, I can still have incredible work, and we will do marvelously in life, you know. So I think that has been something that we've always connected on. So I think there's the bravery, there's that creating um that that safety for both of us. There's realizing that there is abundance, and I think as well, we respect each other. I think that's a big thing. Like, I really respect the work that you do as well, like knowing that it is that leadership and wellness space, like it's needed, it's not just fluffy work at all. It's it's incredible. So I think all of that is just um, yeah, it's been a really great, great foundation for you and I.

SPEAKER_01 40:35

Yeah. And I think also, you know, I agree with everything you said and also looking for the opportunities for both of us. Like I think about, you know, if someone approached me for a workshop and I wasn't available on that day, what a great way to continue a relationship with a client to say, hey, I've actually got someone who I really trust who could run that workshop for you. And that's an opportunity moving forward as well, to say, hey, I can't actually do that, or maybe that's not my exact scope, but I've got someone for you. Yeah. Feels like a really nice way to stay connected to your clients, but also solve a problem of theirs too. So I think there's also opportunity in it as well.

SPEAKER_00 41:16

Yeah. I'm so excited about that coming, you know, like where we actually can just I can't. I'm very busy and important. However, I can see if if Ange can kind of fit you in. But I am, like, I just think that yeah, there's there's not that competitive feel with you and I whatsoever. And I was sort of thinking about, you know, if it's not competitive and if it is collaborative, like what are we actually doing that is making it so? You know, like what do you think it is that enables us to have this collaborative relationship?

SPEAKER_01 41:46

I think there's a level of vulnerability as well, being like, hey, you know, maybe when was it last week or something? I was like, oh, I'm just feeling a little bit like agitated or like unsettled. And no, and I remember this.

SPEAKER_00 41:59

You had a phenomenal week last week. I remember this. It was the week before that you had a lovely week. Because last week, when you had a great week, I had a flat week. Okay, so I remember that very clearly, but yes, continue. Yeah, let's talk about your flat week, not last week.

SPEAKER_01 42:15

The week before, yes, last week was a great week. But I think being really honest about that and having someone just reflect back to you. So I actually think vulnerability is really important and not always coming across as perfect or the one with all the answers, or because let's face it, no one has all the answers in life. None of it, we're all just out here giving it a red hot crack and doing our best. And so I think having that level of vulnerability to say when we need help or to ask as well. So it's actually not just sharing that creates collaboration, it's asking that creates collaboration as well, you know? And I think that's what really helps to create that space for that continual sharing backwards and forwards.

SPEAKER_00 42:59

I totally agree, babe. And I I think that it is with you and I, it's like it's continuously working on it, right? Like, you know, I think we were sort of just joking on that before, but there are times where we both have phenomenal weeks. And it's very easy to talk about phenomenal weeks, right? Like it's easy to kind of go, that was amazing. And I just had this great sales call. I've just got this really cool opportunity coming up. Like that's in a relationship, I think a lot of relationships are like that, where they just talk about the good. They just talk about the happy things. And I think it's really important that we haven't just done that in these last couple of months. Like we will get on and talk to each other. And I say get on, we're on WhatsApp. Who doesn't WhatsApp, right? So we're WhatsApping each other. And it's like, I'm not feeling great this week. Like I'm feeling a little bit like questioning my life. Is this what I'm meant to be doing? And hello, welcome to being a business owner. It happens all the time. Um, and we've done it all multiple times. But to have someone who does get it, who might have been there last week, who's not there this week, but I think sharing the good, the bad, and the ugly, and like you said, it's all about vulnerability, I think is really, really important that we're not choosing. To only talk about certain topics with each other. We're trying to give each other the full, the full scope, which, again, from a trusting point, you want to talk to people like that. Like I think growing up, and I talk about this a bit in my book as well, that I would only talk about the happy things. And I was known as Candace the Happy Kid, and she's always smiling and all that sort of stuff. And if there was anything sad, I would just not say it. Like I just, I'd pack it down. But I think that you're never really having a close relationship with people because they only know one part of you, you know? So I think collaboration is all about the good, the bad, and the ugly, but allowing yourself to keep working on it, I think is really important.

SPEAKER_01 44:33

A hundred percent. I was actually reflecting. Lemon and I went for a big walk yesterday, and I was reflecting on uh, you know, this friend I used to have, and I said, I think actually the reason that that friendship sort of faded away was because I felt like I was always being vulnerable and that person was always listening, but I never really experienced the vulnerability back. And I think it's really hard to have trust when you feel like, well, hold on, why am I giving everything? So it's not even about just solving problems or helping. It's actually about, well, hold on a minute, you've now got a whole lot of information about me, but you're not sharing back with me. So it's really hard to have trust when that's a one-way sort of vulnerability exchange.

SPEAKER_00 45:13

Yeah, it's funny, isn't it? Because it's this sort of collaboration and competitive feel. Like, yes, we're talking about, you know, nine to five workers, right? Because it's predominantly the work that you and I do. But it does happen outside of that. It happens in our friendship groups, it happens in our marriages, right? Like, as in, you've got to continue to do these certain things where it feels like we are working together. Otherwise, it just there can be the smallest things sometimes where people aren't putting the effort in or it is just feeling one-sided. And then resentment pops up and it's like, I don't think this relationship is working out the way that it's supposed to. And it's not. So whether it's a relationship in your personal life or how you are showing up at work, and I think that can sometimes be different without people realizing it. They're like, yeah, but I'm at work. You know, this is like my work team. It's not my friends or my family, it's work. It's like, yeah, but if you're wanting to get a good result out of this as well, like you're you're gonna have to put some sort of effort in. It's not just a one-way street either.

SPEAKER_01 46:06

Well, and we spend most of our time at work. So it's worth the investment. And vulnerability doesn't have to look like sharing things super personal to you. It can look like saying, hey, I actually don't know how to do this. Or this is the first time I've come up against it, or I'm presenting to the leadership team and I'm a bit nervous. Can we workshop it? Can you give me some feedback? That's vulnerability at work as well.

SPEAKER_00 46:29

Yeah, that's such an important point because I think that people do hear the V-word and they're like, I don't want to be vulnerable at work. And it's like, no, I'm not telling you to talk about what you do in the bedroom or what you do, whatever. Like, that's not it, right? It's not it. It is actually just about those things that you're like, I don't want to share that I'm struggling with this project, right? I don't want to share that I don't know how to respond to this client because I've worked here for five years, so I should know how to respond. No, you're human and start the conversation with that. I feel like I should know how to respond to this person, but I'm having a mind fart and I can't do it. Like, can we can we work on it together? You know, like it's it starts with that. So you're absolutely right. Because then again, they will see, oh wow, she doesn't know how to do that. I never know how to reply to emails, but I just keep it to myself. So it's it's contagious as well.

SPEAKER_01 47:11

For sure. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:12

Awesome. So to finish us off, for anyone listening who might be thinking, uh, yep, ladies, I'm definitely in comparison mode right now, whether they're at work or even in their personal life. What do you think, Ange, is one mindset shift and maybe one action that they can take immediately?

SPEAKER_01 47:34

Can I have two? I'm gonna be a bit. So greedy. They're so greedy. I know. I think the two mindset shifts. The first one is you know, I worked in business banking for a long time. And let me tell you, like there are a lot of businesses doing the same thing out there who are all exceptionally successful. So when we rise the tide, all the boats rise with it. And I think that is ultimately the biggest mindset shift around there is enough for everyone, and actually, if we focus on the collective and increasing the environment, more people will know about it, more people will then be successful, and there's a bigger pie. So it's not like one small pie, the pie just gets bigger and bigger the more that the tide rises. Yeah, and I think the other thing is that we are in a loneliness epidemic, and by keeping things to ourselves and not collaborating and being competitive, we're perpetuating the feeling of loneliness. And so invest in relationships, it will do everyone good by investing in our relationships and being collaborative. So those are the two mindset shifts that I want to say. I think one practical thing is to be a little bit brave and just give a little bit, a tiny bit of vulnerability. Try it once, and I think majority of people will be pleasantly surprised on how it's responded to. So sometimes it does create really require a little bit of bravery. It doesn't have to be something big, it could literally be just what we were talking about before. Hey, I've got to respond to this client. I'm just having a moment where I can't really put my words together. Can you help me? That's the start. That's the start of the trust building, the start of the collaboration. So one small step of being vulnerable to start building that trust.

SPEAKER_00 49:18

Love it. They were so great. Okay, my turn. Um, mindset shifts. Uh, I think my one is to really keep reminding yourself that someone else doing well is not proof that you're failing. I think that that is a really important one. Like allowing and and then to be able to celebrate people who are doing exceptional stuff. Like I think that sometimes when people feel that the opposite is true, right? Like, oh, if someone's doing really well, then that means I'm shit, that it stops you from congratulating that epic human, right? So it's like if we actually know that someone else doing well is not proof that you're failing, it gives us this space or this capacity to kind of go, you bloody legend. Like, you know, keep doing what you are doing. That is absolutely incredible. Like I'm I'm still doing my thing and I'm still working my cute bum off over here. And both can be true, which I think is a really important one. Um, and then the action for me is just simply to similar to what you were saying before, actually, but to stop comparing and start connecting. Like it is truly about connection. I think even like, you know, I've had my business now for coming up five, five years this year. And the first few years, like, you know, you do, you're trying, you're doing the bloody best you can. Like there's so many things and you're throwing shit against the wall and seeing what sticks, and you're trying to do what someone told you or what you read in a book, and it's just a lot. And I think that if I started my business all over again, I would have like not just attended networking events like I did. Like, I think I just attended them. I was like, good girl, tick, you're going to networking events, but really focusing on that connection, you know, like really leaning in a lot more to every single person that I met. And I don't think I did that as well. And it is such an important part of how I live my life now. And especially when I go to things like a conference, I am my eyes are open to people that I connect with. And I don't know how many people were that at day one of that conference, but it was like you, babe, and our other little third. So there's three of us in our little group, and we just absolutely connected. And when we did connect, we're like, we are putting time and energy into each other because it was way more important for us. And we say it all the time, every week, we're like, I'm so grateful to have you two in my life. I'm so grateful that you know, we did meet at that conference. And if we didn't put the effort, if we didn't focus on that connection, then um, yeah, it would have just been a that was nice to meet you, have a selfie and see you later. But we we didn't do that, you know? So it's really about stopping feeling threatened by other people, learn from them, support them, ask questions, want to work with them, like you were sort of saying, like, you know, we can't have all the work, so like refer other people as well. But comparison is something that really does drain people, and connection is just, I mean, it's everything. We've seen that over the last couple of months with the three of us. So yeah, connection.

SPEAKER_01 51:56

Yeah. Absolutely. And I think the only other thing I would add is we find it so easy to like and support people we don't even know online, you know, like celebrities, influencers, whatever. Like it's so, you know, it's so easy to go on and like, and you know, people are so supportive of people we don't know. My encouragement is to turn that support towards people you do know rather than strangers on the internet.

SPEAKER_00 52:20

Why do we do that? Why do we do that? Why are we loving it? What Beyonce is talking about, what Taylor Swift is talking about, and then we see what our friend who's in business or whatever, and we just keep scrolling. Like, I don't think we're doing it to be colossal assholes, but we just for some reason, maybe it does feel vulnerable, you know. Maybe it is one of those, like, then they'll see that I've read it and that I've liked it, or they'll see that I'm online, or I don't know, but just know that when we're not doing that, that we see that you're liking Taylor Swift Swift over us, you know? Like I think that's what that what's kind of happens.

SPEAKER_01 52:52

Well, you know, Layla, I'm doing Layla Hormosy, she's sort of speaks about business, etc. And she says it doesn't even matter what the post says, just double tap, like it. Like it, you know, if it if it comes up on your feed, just like it. It literally takes two seconds to support your friends, you know? And I think it that's the same thing even in a nine to five in a business, right? Like if someone does something, put it on your Teams chat or Slack chat. Hey, I just, you know, so-and-so just did this. It was awesome. It literally takes two seconds to do it.

SPEAKER_00 53:23

Oh my God. Do you know what? If someone is still listening to this episode, like they've gone the full, like, what are we up to? It's almost an hour. Love it. Um, and they're still listening here. Like, I just want to chuck a little bit of a fun. I was about to say competition. I just want to chuck a fun collaboration initiative out there. Like, I would wouldn't this be fun to see how many people would actually share this episode, like just for shits and giggles of it, because I think that you and I would see it, that people download and listen to podcasting. And podcasting is one of those things where you have no idea who is listening. Like, you just don't. So the amount of times that people like loved your episode, I'm like, oh my God, did you? Like, thank you for being the one person out of my couple of hundred downloads who actually let me know. Thank you so much. I'm glad that wasn't a complete waste of time. But if you did enjoy this episode, like liking it, where, because Angie and I are both going to share it on our and our social media. But if you see it on LinkedIn, if you see it even with Spotify, I would love you to be able to share it. Tag us both in. It will truly, I am not just saying this, it will make both of our days. Like when you see people who are looking at it, sharing it, all that sort of stuff, it's like it, it's it doesn't go unnoticed. It can be one of those moments where we could be having the shittest day and you see someone liking something that you've created, and it's, you know, stick a fork in me, I'm done, sort of stuff. So if you do love it, I would love you to share. Also, please do go and follow, and she is absolutely incredible. Mind your grit is her business. All the links will be below. Like there are so many. I can't wait to read listen. It's one of those sort of episodes and take notes from everything that came out of your mouth, babe, because it's always amazing. But thank you so much for coming on the Shake Up podcast. I absolutely loved this chat with you.

SPEAKER_01 54:59

Thank you for having me. I loved it.