Let That Shift Go
Welcome to "Let That Shift Go," a podcast hosted by siblings Lena and Noel. Join them on their journey of self-awareness as they delve into meaningful conversations about the human experience.
Lena and Noel have decided to break free from the confines of private discussions and bring their heartfelt, and at times, humorous conversations to the public. They believe that we are all going through the trials and tribulations of life, and it's comforting to know that we're not alone.
In each episode, Lena and Noel will explore various aspects of being human, sharing personal stories, insights, and lessons they've learned along the way. From navigating relationships to dealing with challenges, they'll offer a refreshing perspective on life's ups and downs.
Through candid and authentic conversations, "Let That Shift Go" aims to create a safe space for listeners to relate, reflect, and find solace in the shared human experience. Lena and Noel invite you to join them as they embrace change, growth, and let go of what no longer serves them.
Tune in and be part of a community that celebrates the beautiful messiness of being human. Get ready to let go, laugh, and discover that you're not alone on this journey. Welcome to "Let That Shift Go" podcast!
Let That Shift Go
Shifting From "Fixer" To "Listener : The Listening Transformation
How often do we truly listen without the urge to fix? Join us in this heartfelt episode as I share intimate moments with my sister Lena, revealing how our bond has deepened through genuine understanding. Using skin-deep cards, we uncover the power of feeling safe and seen, and I recount my transformative experience at Transcendence in Scottsdale, where confronting my imposter syndrome led to profound self-acceptance.
We dive into the value of active listening, showing through personal stories how the instinct to solve problems can sometimes invalidate emotions. From a mother's realization about her son's need to truly express his feelings, to the importance of undivided attention in adult relationships, we underscore the significance of creating a safe space for emotional expression. Listen as we tackle the complexities of managing emotions within family dynamics and the pitfalls of the "good vibes only" mindset.
In our final segments, we emphasize the art of holding space and the transformative effects of deep, empathetic listening. Whether it's navigating difficult conversations or ensuring every dialogue is treated with respect and attentiveness, we provide practical tools for fostering genuine connections. Tune in for a journey of empathy, self-awareness, and the immense impact of being truly present for one another.
Hello and welcome to the Let that Shift Go podcast. I'm Noel.
Speaker 2:And I'm Lina.
Speaker 1:And this is where we talk about the good, the bad and all the shift in between.
Speaker 2:We just talk mad shift.
Speaker 1:Let's get into it and on this week's episode we're going to talk about the shift from fixer to listener. Yeah, this week's episode we're going to talk about the shift from fixer to listener.
Speaker 2:Yeah, this is a good shift.
Speaker 1:Yeah, thought about by a clip we found. Yeah.
Speaker 2:We're going to play for you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we'll play for you a little later, but first let's get into the skin. Deep cards. You want to go first? Sure, okay.
Speaker 2:How honest are you with me and why?
Speaker 1:Hmm, I think I'm the most honest with you than I am with any other person, any human being, and I think the reason why is because I feel safe, completely safe, like unconditional love. It's too early to cry. Well, you know, it's one of those things that you like. Ultimately, I've thought that I was always looking for you know, yeah, and I didn't know that I can find it in my sister.
Speaker 2:Yeah, sometimes that's the last person you think you're going to find it in is your sibling right Because there's so many disentanglements sometimes with being a sibling or being in the same family and having an expectation of who you think they are and what they're going to think. But it's a gift when we're able to kind of connect with each other.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think, stepping back from it, you know, logically it does make sense that you share, like history and the tapestry of our lives, but we did experience things separately and so that's what I think kept us from growing together or coming together earlier or sooner. But you know, I've been looking to fill that void my whole life and really trying to get it from my wife, from Ellen, and when I opened up to you, it just you understood and it felt like the first time I felt understood. I think everybody walks around trying to feel understood, seen and heard, seen and heard, yeah, yeah. And so when I said some of the things you know, you even stopped me when I was glossing over things and even making me stop and realize things that I didn't.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So it helped me to understand myself better, which was you know kind of holding space.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know. Yeah, that's a good question, good question for this episode.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, so thank you for that.
Speaker 2:You're welcome, it's my honor.
Speaker 1:Okay, so my question is what's the hardest thing for me to learn and why do you think that is?
Speaker 2:What and why do you think that is? What is the hardest thing for you to learn?
Speaker 2:To trust yourself, and I think why that is is because I think it's like trusting yourself on this level is kind of a new concept in some ways. Yeah, and not thinking you're reverting back to old patterns or judging yourself through your past is sometimes, I think, the hardest, because we're the hardest on ourselves most times and I see ways that you've grown and sometimes I feel like you don't see it. So I think that's one of the things it's like when you're doing this work and you're really coming face to face with yourself and your faults and how you want to change and grow. Sometimes you don't notice that you are doing it because you're judging yourself through the past and while we're going to fall down all the time no one's perfect at all, but you know, we often judge ourselves by the harsh things instead of noticing all the good, like noticing the ways that it has gotten incrementally and exponentially better.
Speaker 1:Yeah, see, I learned a lot at Transcendence in Scottsdale about that. When you know to, there was points where we had to get up and share our ideas and basically have like a manifesto of like who we are, I am statements and I was so, you know, afraid to say those things. And when we did the kind of I don't know best way I can describe it is like a speed dating, where we had a minute to just tell somebody our statement, who we are from yeah, and then we had to switch and just keep switching and switching and it was so difficult because I didn't.
Speaker 1:I felt like I was in a room that I didn't belong, because these were coaches of coaches.
Speaker 2:You feel like an imposter.
Speaker 1:And I felt like an imposter.
Speaker 2:And I was like these.
Speaker 1:People are doctors and lawyers and scientists, and people are making tremendous movements in their communities and I don't feel like I'm that person. And the more I shared, the more people gave me positive feedback and I was like wow.
Speaker 2:Reflecting back to you.
Speaker 1:I was like I need to really receive these things that people tell me, because I operate on a wavelength where I have a lot of self-talk that's negative and in my head it was a wavelength where I have a lot of self-talk that's negative and you know, in my head it was. I'm just a pool guy. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And my therapist made something. It was like you know, you need to stop saying that and she goes well, you know, tell me what really are you and how would you introduce yourself other than I'm just a pool guy. And she had me practice something. It was more of the effect of like hi, my name is Noel, and and she had me practice something that was more of the effect of like hi, my name is Noel and I'm an entrepreneur in San Diego. I'm the sixth largest pool company service company in San Diego. We help take care and maintain over 300 pools and we help bridge the gap between pools and automation and bringing that into their homes. That's how I should introduce myself, but in my head I don't belong here. I'm just a self. But I built a company from the ground up, but that's what my self-talk is, and so what I learned from that was just I need to receive what people tell me, because I don't believe it.
Speaker 2:I don't even believe it myself sometimes, yeah, and you were very much in the right room, so yeah, yeah, I felt that afterwards.
Speaker 1:It was not easy to learn.
Speaker 2:You had to kind of experience that go into some uncomfortable places but come up face-to-face with you. Yeah, thank you for sharing that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so let's get into this topic. Yes. The shift from fixer to listener. So what brought this up for you?
Speaker 2:Well, I recently watched a video with Peter Krohn, the mind architect. I follow him and I love his way of working with people, and he talked about when someone's sharing their struggles you know that oftentimes they're not always seeking a solution, but sometimes when we're listening we're automatically wanting to give a solution and in some ways we don't realize how much that can invalidate the other person or really kind of shut them down. And so if you want to play the clip from the video, I think it kind of speaks for itself.
Speaker 1:Yeah, let's do that.
Speaker 4:Here we go, retreat Maui. And this mother said how do I help my son, because he's always saying I'm not as good as Jimmy or whatever. And I said well, how do you currently deal with it? And she says no, I tell him that he's got these amazing qualities and how good he is. And I said, yeah, you're not listening. He's trying to tell you something and you're not hearing him. You're not doing anything wrong. As a mother, you want him to feel confident. You don't want him to feel inadequate, but you can't move him to those places until you meet him where he is. And I said this is my invitation when you go home, meet your son.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I thought that was pretty powerful.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that resonates with me deep.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because it's about just the act of listening. But oftentimes we're just so quick to be like we need to fix it and it really just robs yourself of this opportunity to be present right and holding space as an act of compassion.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I had a recent thing with Logan and he just started this football season and there's a bunch of injuries on the team and nine of the starters are out and he's really feeling like he has to fill the gaps and the other players are not stepping up. And he was all this negative talk and I went right into, like what Peter Cronin is talking about. Well, you know, you're a fantastic player and you need to bring the team together. I'd give him all this stuff and stop being so negative and find the positive. I'm doing all these things. And then he stops me and he said dad, can I tell you something? And I said, yeah. He said I understand you're trying to tell me to be positive and things, but you know, with my coaches and with my teammates I can't vent, and with you I just want to vent, I just want to let it out sometimes and I was like, oh, I mean, he taught me so much in that moment.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And then I was able to just sit back and just listen to what he had to say. And when I listened to him, he had already had it figured out what he should do in his head. He just needed to get it out. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And then I asked him so what do you think you should do about it? And then he had a whole plan of what I it was better than what I would have said to him, so I just needed to allow him to have his own agency to handle the situation. Without me. I think a lot of things. As a parent or as a father. I feel like I have to protect him from all the bad things and if I can give him all this stuff in my head to prevent him.
Speaker 2:If you knew, what I knew that whole thing.
Speaker 1:if I knew now what I knew, if I knew then what I know now, everything would be solved. And for a long time I thought as a father, that's my job is to teach my kids so they know now what I wish, they knew what I wish I knew then. And I'm learning more and more that that's not the way, because that's control, that's ego and that's creating and giving them your culture and not letting them have the culture of one.
Speaker 2:Right Themselves Empowering him to be able to figure out his way. Yeah, that's. I remember when you told me that story and I was one I was like wow, I'm really glad that he felt comfortable enough to just tell you Like hey, enough to just tell you like hey, can I tell you something? I just really need you to listen, because that can be kind of scary too Right To ask for what you want.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't think I've always been that person that could hear that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, that's another way I feel like reflecting back to you how much progress there has been. Um is that you know your son was comfortable enough to say I'm actually going to go against what you're saying right now and tell you what I feel, and you created a safe place for him to do that and being able to hear him say that and listen and like oh yeah, that's exactly what I'm doing. I'm trying to solve your problem.
Speaker 1:Well that's I think I hear a lot of in a lot of relationships, like the husband's always the fixer and if a wife comes to them just to talk about their day and how they were at work and Ellen has done that plenty of times to me where she'll talk about something about work, and right away I'm trying to be the fixer and she just wants me to listen, not to tell her what to do.
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, we've been conditioned to think that offering advice is the best way to show that we care, right, and then. But when we do that, we unintentionally invalidate their feelings and you. The message you send is you shouldn't feel this way. Here's how you fix it. So you're just negating that you shouldn't feel this way. If you just did A or C, then you wouldn't. Yeah.
Speaker 2:But how many times have we just wanted to tell someone what we're feeling and not be told why we're wrong for feeling that? Or if you would have just maybe you know done this, then you wouldn't be feeling that way. So it's like making us wrong or making them wrong for feeling the way they feel and in some way satisfying this thing. Like I had the answer here, it is, you know. So I think that we're just kind of conditioned to do that, or maybe we're not comfortable also with someone else being in pain and so we want to fix it.
Speaker 1:Well, sometimes also I've had conversations at the dinner table where, you know, we kind of have a hard and fast rule, like we don't get into those heavy things at the table, and there's been times where Logan or Aiden, or particularly Logan, will try to say something and I'll be like that's not, we're not talking about that right now, we're not going to be negative in this space, and he feels he could see it.
Speaker 2:It's like what do I do with this?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that's also wrong. Yeah, and looking back in hindsight, I'm really feeling the reason why I did that was because I was in a space that I wasn't prepared or I didn't have the capacity to hold space for that. And so I was shutting them down, but not in a nice way. I basically completely put a wall up Like that's not happening right now. You need to-.
Speaker 2:Your feelings. There's no room for that, there's no room for that yeah. Yeah, there's, that's that's another thing. That's the thing that there's a you know the good vibes only Like. You will never see that at my house, because I feel like that's been such a trendy term, but at the same time it negates If you're not feeling anything but good, we don't want it here.
Speaker 1:It's an emotional bypass.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, totally, it's just a shutdown.
Speaker 1:And it's a repressing feelings, yeah.
Speaker 2:Which I've been trying to stop or let go. We're the opposite of repressing feelings, so it's like you need to let it move, let it have its expression, let it have its way. I think there's a time and a place to be like hey, this is maybe the time that we talk about it. Maybe it's not at the dinner table because you're digesting your food and it's probably not the healthiest way to do it, but to say, okay, we want to hear this out.
Speaker 2:But let's just wait till we're done eating and let's make some time to sit down and really focus. Yeah, that would have been a much healthier way to handle that situation. And that would still be holding space.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah absolutely, Because it makes him feel like we don't have space for him and he can't be heard and him being the youngest in the house, he gets a lot of that. He's said plenty of times like I don't have a voice in this house. Yeah, you know.
Speaker 2:There's no room for you. That's one of the things that, for me, I had to work through whenever.
Speaker 1:I would get really angry as a mom or as a kid, or sad.
Speaker 2:As an adult woman. I remember you know, especially working with multiple people, with issues and in family or in relationship, and it feels like I hold space a lot of times for people because that's part of my job.
Speaker 2:Oh, yes For clients and stuff Right For clients and even friends, and so when I have a bad day, or if I'm having, I'm struggling, that is, I realized that was the loop of thought that would happen when I would be struggling is there's no room for you, there's no room for you to talk to anybody about it. You're supposed to be the one that holds it all together, and it was almost like this angry, ugly voice that would come in and it would just feel so isolating, like there's no room for you to have your feelings. You can't tell anyone about it. They're going to think you don't have it together. Whatever that loop of thought you know that would run through the head is that there's no room for you.
Speaker 2:So that to me, is a that's a heavy statement and just making room for people to have their experience and just providing presence, you know that's.
Speaker 2:That's the other thing that we talk about a lot in breath work or in, you know, groups or working with people, especially when people are going through healing.
Speaker 2:And I remember the term holding space, and I don't know if that we've talked about this before on the episodes, but holding space to me it's like I did not have any idea what that meant.
Speaker 2:Like literally, I was like what do you like prepare a room and you put blankets in it and you, like you know, you clear out any kind of negative objects, like what does that actually mean?
Speaker 2:And it was way more simple, simpler than that was, than that was just to provide the space or presence for someone to have the experience they're having, and that means not inserting yourself into the experience. So, as a person who is maybe trying to hold space, like when I'm holding a breathwork session for someone or for a group of people, my job is to hold that space for them, hold a safe container for them to feel safe enough to have whatever expression it is, to be able to talk about whatever they need to or to cry, or to scream or whatever it is and not insert myself into it in a way that negates their experience or interrupts that experience. So it's such a powerful thing to be able to do, but I know that it wasn't something I understood at all. Just with the term holding space, you take it literally that maybe it's a room and the way you set it up, but it's really just providing presence and a place for someone to have their experience, without trying to fix it or tell them how oh, that's like me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, or.
Speaker 2:I did that.
Speaker 1:You know our healing cards that we brought up right. Mm-hmm. When I said that you made me feel safe, one of the things was like, yeah, you didn't interject it like that, you would just inquire more like a deepening question about whatever experience I was talking about, and then I would. It just started to flow.
Speaker 2:Unfold it, yeah, and.
Speaker 1:I felt like you weren't talking much at all, but just asking me things, and I just kept feeling more and more comfortable to just release whatever was in it. I was allowed to just flow.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think there's. That's the thing about deep listening is having a real sense of curiosity. So if we're talking to someone, if you're deeply listening, you're just like I want to know more. Tell me more about this and being able to help them unfold from the experience that they're talking about.
Speaker 1:Well, another part that I'm thinking about now is that you know, being empathetic, usually when I'm trying to open up or be vulnerable with somebody, a lot of time I'm just reading body language and I'm feeling judged just by the way that maybe they're reacting or the way that they're coming across, even without saying words. But in that situation I didn't feel I was able to just be at ease and not feel judged by you even with your body language. Does that make sense?
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, body language is a big part of communication. So, for body language, if you think about if how do you know someone is really interested in what you're saying, you'll see them lean forward, you'll put their chin forward, they'll look in your eyes, you know. And so I think one thing is like you won't have to really think about it, like, oh, I want to, oh, let me lean forward, let me do this. If you're deeply listening, you're naturally going to do the things that kind of invite more, right, or. But if you're crossed your arms and you're looking at your phone, it's the opposite. Your body language is I'm halfway in here, I'm not interested, or I've got to go do something else. So really being mindful about your body language, yeah, but I think that if you're more going on the foundation of deep curiosity, that then it will come naturally to behave in a way, or your body will move in a way, that says I'm interested, yeah, and part.
Speaker 1:One of the most important things that I heard Peter Krohn saying, that is to meet them where they're at.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:And a fun exercise that you know we came across was, you know, thinking about two to three people that you may want to have a life-changing conversation with past or present dead or alive, could be Gandhi or Jesus or your grandmother and really write down some questions in terms of like what you would want to ask them and just think about that pretty deeply. But then Flip that. And what if you took every conversation and had every conversation with that much listening Because I think even with my son I have, because of the parental vibe I feel like I'm about what you're gonna say back to them. You just wanna hear everything that they wanna say, because they're the most important person that you've been waiting years to talk to and this is my only chance to talk. This might be the last time I get to talk to this person and if you treat every conversation with such deep listening, I think it's gonna change your life because, I've been doing that more and more with clients every day, friends, and it's just a different kind of feel to the conversation.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I like that.
Speaker 2:Like if you first have to think about who are the one or two or three people you would just love to have a conversation with. How deeply would you listen when they were talking If that was the last thing you were going to hear and you didn't want to put a bunch of yourself into the space. You just want to hear them, you know, express to you whatever it is they want to express. You're going to listen a lot differently than if you're just like, hey, you know you meet somebody joe on the street or your buddy that you're going to see tomorrow. But to actually stop and say my practice right now is to deeply listen to whatever this is and I think that the is is that you're coming with the intent to listen, because you're not a fixer to Gandhi, you know what I mean, it's that shift.
Speaker 1:It's the shift of meeting them at their level that is so. Key is to meet them at their level and take away the hierarchy of the conversation, of the dynamics in a relationship, whatever that is.
Speaker 2:Or the ego, you know, or that you're uncomfortable with them being in pain and so we need to fix it. It's just that's part of the human experience is that we're going to have pain, we're going to have things that happen that bother us, and sometimes all someone needs is just your presence. I mean, I find some of my closest friends are people that I can be in a room with and be silent, just to be there, you know, or just to listen and just to say you know what that must be hard. Tell me more, you know. I think tell me more is a great way of one acknowledging that you see and hear someone and inviting them into the space of unfolding, because, like for someone like me who hears that loop, that probably nobody ever knew.
Speaker 2:Is that there's no room for you? Who hears that loop that probably nobody ever knew? Is that there's no room for you? There's no room for your feelings or you're having a bad day?
Speaker 2:For someone like that, when someone says, hey, tell me more, it's like, really, you want to hear I'm not taking up too much of your space, I'm not taking up too much of your time, because I feel like that's also something that people have I myself included, that I'm, you know, sharing something with someone.
Speaker 2:In the back of my mind I'm like hurry up, they're busy, you know. Or hurry up, they don't have time for this. And so for someone to say, no, I have time, and their body language is I'm not going anywhere, I just want to hear more. It invites me into a place of being able to unfold and untangle and probably relieve some stress, you know, and maybe even to find my solution in my own speech, you know, in my own sharing, to be able to untangle that and see what is the solution I'm looking for. Or maybe I'm not looking for one, maybe I just want to just talk, you know, and then go on about my day and go have a sandwich. Let's go have a sandwich together. It doesn't need to be the end of the world because we had this conversation, but sometimes it's just the presence and I think sometimes as listeners, as fixers, we think if we don't bring it to a conclusion or we don't provide the solution, then we didn't do a good job. Yeah.
Speaker 2:But that's not true. What if listening is the good job?
Speaker 1:Well, in that conversation with Logan I actually learned. I was the one that learned in that situation?
Speaker 2:Yeah, can you imagine? I just thought about little kids, I know when we were little. Many people that I talked to when you're little is kids are better seen than heard, and that shuts a lot of us down. It's like because you're a kid, nobody wants to hear what you have to say.
Speaker 1:No, I mean, we talked about this a few weeks ago, I can't remember. It was like oh, what are they talking about? Oh, we'll tell you when you're older. You're too young for that, or they would put it off. And you never got an answer and it was like oh well, I'm too dumb, I'm not good enough to hear I'm not part of the conversation.
Speaker 2:I'm not part of the conversation.
Speaker 1:This is grown folks talking. Yeah. You know, get out of the room, go to your bedroom. This is grown folks talking. It was very-.
Speaker 2:Dismissive.
Speaker 1:Dismissive and exclusive. You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:I mean they excluded us. Yeah, it felt. Of course we have things to do and we have to move on to do things, but if you gave them your undivided attention when they're asking you a question and you're not looking at your phone, is what that would do to them growing up into an adult? That there is space for me, I can let someone know how I'm feeling. My feelings are important. I think we have a whole different society because we wouldn't all be so thirsty to just be seen and heard. That's one of the main things I see with people coming to the events here or doing breath work or, you know, doing coaching is just this need, this deep thirst to be seen and to be heard, to be witnessed, to be witnessed. It's not to be fixed. That's not our deep need is to be fixed Sometimes it's just to be seen, be heard, be witnessed To be witnessed.
Speaker 2:It's not to be fixed. That's not our deep need is to be fixed. Sometimes it's just to be seen and heard, so I don't know. I think this is a really important topic.
Speaker 1:Well, I got a question because you know holding space for Logan, where I wasn't the villain or in the story. But what if you're holding space for your spouse that has a complaint against you? That's a much more difficult. I've been in that plenty of times.
Speaker 2:Well, okay, I love this.
Speaker 1:And it's hard for me to hold space for that, because I, I find, and I'm not trying to fix, I'm defending, and that's also invalidating and being able to not take it personal. Invalidating and being able to not take it personal, which is the key right, is the most difficult thing for me. So what are your thoughts on that?
Speaker 2:Well, one of the things it brings up is thinking about how we see everything through the past or we hear things through the past. So when somebody is putting you on the defense, it's like you never do this, you never do that, or I feel really hurt because you did this or that. We're also thinking about in our defense of ourselves is maybe thinking about well, this is when you did this to me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, see that one thing you talk about alchemizing energy and you can either repeat it back, you can absorb it or you can turn it into love.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you can alchemize it, you can turn it into something productive.
Speaker 1:And my first instinct is to defend or to like. Well, you did this. Yeah, and let's both be wrong.
Speaker 2:So now nobody's right. Also nobody's heard and you're both invalidated. And now we're in a fight. You know, like that conversation just came to a dead stop. If you're lucky it came to a dead stop, it probably elevates into something else.
Speaker 2:So I think this is like almost more of an advanced practice, I would say start with just trying to deeply listen and then transform that into your relationships. In the same way is that you have to remove yourself from the I don't know feeling, the attack of a conversation and just deeply listen to what's happening for this other person, like what is what is this? What's happening for them, what are they feeling? It's hard because you're making it personal and that's the other thing we talked about is like nothing is personal, right, it's just our experience and our perspective on our experience. So if you're able to go into that conversation maybe a difficult one that you know it's going to be difficult with someone you love or someone you're close to, or a coworker, whatever is that to know? Okay, the premise is nothing is personal.
Speaker 2:So let's have this conversation. And how can I hear you and in the past we've talked about with deep listening is to repeat back what I hear you saying is this is that right? And then yes or no, it's right or it's not. The next thing is to ask that deepening question, kind of like the tell me more is well. What I want to know is whatever that question is you talked about. You are upset about I didn't take out the trash or I didn't say the right thing.
Speaker 2:Is that right? Is that what I said? This and that upset you. Is that right? Yes, what I want to know is what could I have said differently or what would have been helpful, right? So that's asking the person to unfold and open. It also takes them down from a defensive point. Yeah, because it's like oh well, why didn't one? They probably didn't expect it. And then it kind of opens the heart.
Speaker 2:It's an opening from the heart and when they feel maybe you have to go, maybe one of you has to go first to do this, maybe when they feel that coming to them, then they can then mirror that back to you. But sometimes we have to give it first to get it back.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and for myself, I think, a constant self-check during these you know even before, am I capable of handling?
Speaker 1:Because having these types of conversations in passing or while you're cooking dinner or something, just having some sort of that's not a place where you can be present with each other and have active listening. So you got to make sure that when you're going to have this conversation, you are in a good space for it and during, if you feel like your emotions are rising or elevating to a place where you don't feel safe, check in with yourself, ask for a pause and just be vulnerable enough to say hey, do you mind if we pause for a minute, because I'm just feeling a little anxiety or something like that Step away and then come back or just at least letting them know when we're going to revisit this conversation, not leaving it.
Speaker 1:Well, we'll talk later, because that may leave the other person hanging in a way.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that's really important. That's going to take some sense of self-awareness of what am I feeling. I'm feeling something is not. I'm not my best right now, I'm not at a neutral place and so it's probably not the right time to have this conversation. But I think that the practice would be to do this with situations or conversations that maybe aren't triggering, not activating, and it starts to become natural. Maybe that deep listening becomes natural, not activating, and you know it starts to become natural. Maybe that deep listening becomes natural just being present and not having to fix, and then you know that can translate into your deeper relationships as well, with things that are hard. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Because the more we practice it, the better we become. It's like stepping into that observer role is really important in conversations that are difficult.
Speaker 1:You know, yeah, when I'm not feeling safe in a conversation, I'm more reactive and less responsible, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1:So that's I have to check in with myself, often, even during, because it can through a conversation, it can fluctuate, it could say one thing that triggers me and I have to like oh, here it goes. I get scared of what the next thing is going to come out, or I'm worried about what I think they're going to say, and so I have all these emotions and I haven't even heard what they're going to say yet.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you're already building up your defense or like oh, how am I going to prepare for this?
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's what I've noticed most often about myself is whenever I am trying to put myself into a place where I'm ready to be in a mode of deep listening with a difficult conversation, it's really difficult for me to stay in that safe place so that I can hear, especially when it's when I'm the antagonist in the story. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that's when you use the tools you know you got. You can rely on your tools if it's not coming natural, which is the, the deep listening tool of like is this what you said? What I want to know is this like just practicing that will start to shift the energy of a conversation. The other thing is I think is really important. One more tip is that when you're if you want to have a conversation with someone you know is to ask like hey, do you have some space? Can you give me like eight minutes? Do you have eight minutes to give me? That I just need to like vent, you know, and maybe you're the one who needs to be heard, but starting that practice of like asking do you have the space to hear this? Yeah.
Speaker 2:Because we're not always in the space to hear things right. And that's where you're saying like, really check in with yourself, do I have the capacity to listen right now? And if you don't say so and just be like I want to give you my full attention, and right now I'm feeling off, so can we just give it. You know, can I call you in like 10 minutes or 20 minutes or tomorrow, whatever. It's better to have a conversation where you're present than to go into it half cocked or like on tilt and then, you know, end up in a reaction. So maybe asking someone for the space to just listen, and then you're emulating this behavior to them and oftentimes they'll be like, oh, is that how we do it? Now I'm going to ask Noel, hey, can you hold some time for me? I just need five minutes to let this out, and it's like all right, we're going into listening, you don't need me to fix it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I heard somebody I don't know if it was Peter Krohn, but somebody said that that's their between him and another friend. Their code words are hey, if you got eight minutes because that's a statistic, that it only takes eight minutes to change a person's whole perspective and mind shift and their code that phrase between them and they just text each other do you got eight minutes?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it was a group of guy friends.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it was like oh, that's the code word to say hey, I just need to be heard.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I just need somebody to listen to me and it was a way for them to know. Okay, I need to hold space for this person. Yeah, Anytime, they just have that unspoken rule like okay, yeah, give me 10 minutes, let's jump on a call. I got eight minutes for you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you're not expecting me to fix your problem, you just need me to listen. Yeah.
Speaker 2:I like that. I like that practice of do you have eight minutes? There are three questions I want to share with people for them to ask themselves to see, you know, are they in the listener or the fixer? Okay, and just to become self-aware on this point is, when someone shares their feelings with me, do I instinctively try to offer advice or solutions? Most times, yes, yeah. Number two am I truly listening or am I waiting for my turn to speak? That's a big one. That's a big one If you can feel you're at the line like, oh, is this my opening? It's like can you just breathe and sit and wait and let them talk until you have to go? Oh, do you want me to say something or not to jump in? How often do I insert my own experiences into the conversation, even when it's not necessary?
Speaker 1:Or relevant sometimes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you know what One of the things I feel like even I've done in the past is. I feel like sometimes we're taught that when you share your own experience that's similar to theirs, really a part of that is trying to connect with that person and make them feel like they're less alone. Yeah, that's the intention, for sure, that definitely can be the intention, but I think that thinking about how that could be received, and really you're now inserting yourself into the space, so in some way, you could be invalidating, you could be. Now you're shifting the conversation to you when they were just like I was just trying to have, I just needed to get this out, and now we're talking about your experience and I think that's something to be mindful of. It's not because you think you're more important. Sometimes it's because you're trying to connect, and I feel like a lot of people, I've known people who are very one-up. I'm going to one-up you. I'm going to one-up you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I've been in plenty of conversations where like, oh, that's nothing, you should see what happened to me.
Speaker 2:They did this and that, and you're like wait, we didn't even get a chance this person was divulging and if you're talking about something negative, you're like you think that's bad, this is worse. So what are you saying? I shouldn't feel so bad about this thing that I feel bad about, so I'm invalidated. Thank you very much so, just really being mindful and aware that that's how it can be received.
Speaker 2:It's like stealing the thunder, almost right when you know, as a listener, your job isn't to fix it, your job isn't to negate it, it's just to listen and just to provide presence. So, I don't know.
Speaker 1:I think this one is an important topic that all of us yeah, I'm deeply passionate because, you know, even more recently, with the anecdotes about Logan and even conversations with Ellen, my wife, it really hits home having to hold space in places where you're the villain, or if you're just holding space as a random person, just as a spectator.
Speaker 2:You know, practice as a spectator quite a few times.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, that's the place where you got to start.
Speaker 2:That's where you go into the gym. You're lifting the five pounds.
Speaker 1:But you can do it with anything. I do it at work when somebody's telling me about a problem with their pool, and I'll do it in that way because it doesn't there's no, I got no skin in the game. I mean, it doesn't affect me, I'm going to take care of it. But I just need to hear what their complaint is and why they think this person's not doing this, or if it's a complaint about the way that the pool is being taken care of or whatever. Just they, as long as they feel heard and they understand that I'm going to do my best to to rectify the situation and come up to a resolution, they it's, it's all good. They know that I've got their back, Cause I think that's one of the key things in people's relationships is knowing that you got your back, they got your back.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they got your back, but they don't have to fix your problems.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:There's a that's, that's a thing Like. Sometimes you know, know the difference between I got your back and I can fix your problems.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think. Well, most people want to help, they want to be the hero. I've got a hero complex that I'm trying to extremely radically curve to just saving myself yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, I think I would. The suggestion is to practice being fully present in your conversations this week and notice the shifts in your relationship when you give someone the gift of presence the gift of truly being heard.
Speaker 1:Listening as if they were the person that you've been dying to have this conversation with and it's the last one you're ever going to have.
Speaker 2:Yeah, listen, with that intention.
Speaker 1:Let us know how that goes. All right, that's been another episode of Let that Shift Go podcast. I'm Noel.
Speaker 2:And I'm Lena. Let us know what your questions are and we'd love to use them on a future episode. Or check us out on Insta at LetThatShiftGo, or visit our website, serenitycovetomeculacom.