The Real D-Word Is Defensiveness (And It’s Ruining Date Night)

We explore defensiveness as a nervous system reflex that shuts down connection and share practices that turn hard truths into repair. From parenting regrets to partner conflicts, we model the pause, reflective listening and building self-safety so honesty can land.

• defining defensiveness and how it derails connection
• shame and guilt as triggers for reactivity
• authenticity gaps between public self and home self
• validation over explanation as the repair path
• role-playing to build empathy and reduce triggers
• the pause, reflective listening and one-sided shares
• using a talking stick and setting return times
• staying steady when delivery is heated
• forgiving the past self to hear the present truth
• simple reflection to practice before responding

Let us know what your questions are, and we'd love to use them on a future episode. Or check us out on Insta at Let That Ship Go or visit our website, SerenityCove Temecula.com

https://www.serenitycovetemecula.com

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:07

Hello and welcome to the Let That Shift Go podcast. I'm Noelle.

SPEAKER_02 0:10

And I'm Lena.

SPEAKER_00 0:11

And this is where we talk about the good, the bad, and all the shift in between.

SPEAKER_02 0:17

We'll just talk mad shift.

SPEAKER_01 0:19

Let's get into it. And on this week's episode, you can't handle the truth, or can you?

SPEAKER_02 0:26

We're gonna be uh channeling a few good men to talk about inner truth and reactions, talking about defensiveness.

SPEAKER_01 0:33

Yeah, getting defensive.

SPEAKER_02 0:35

The real D-word.

SPEAKER_01 0:38

All right, but first let's get into these skin deep cards this week. You want me to go first? Yeah, you go first.

SPEAKER_02 0:44

My question is how do you find peace?

SPEAKER_01 0:48

Hmm. Well, it's changed over the years. And I well, I guess I didn't really know what peace was. It was the first, you know, key is to actually know what that is. Um but what I found is, you know, peace for me is like when I can sit still and just notice where I'm at and appreciate what's going on or where you know what's actually happening happening in the moment. That's where I find my peace.

SPEAKER_02 1:17

So in presence.

SPEAKER_01 1:18

Yeah, and being present.

SPEAKER_02 1:20

Yeah, I love that. I love that.

SPEAKER_01 1:22

Okay, my question is which one of my insecurities drives you crazy?

SPEAKER_02 1:30

Let me count the way.

SPEAKER_01 1:32

Which one? You don't notice that there was multiples.

SPEAKER_02 1:36

Um, I mean, because I wouldn't say that you're an insecure person. I think so. Not outwardly.

SPEAKER_01 1:45

Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:46

Um, but I would say maybe behind closed doors is that you're not doing enough. You know? I would say that that's not true. So sometimes you'll overdo.

SPEAKER_01 1:59

I could see that.

SPEAKER_02 2:00

Yeah, or that you are maybe that you're like not doing enough even in in being able to be heard.

SPEAKER_01 2:08

You know. I do find myself overexplaining. Overexplaining, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:13

Yeah. Also a defensiveness.

SPEAKER_02 2:15

Mm-hmm. And I always think when someone's overexplaining, it's like, are you trying to convince me or you're trying to convince yourself?

SPEAKER_01 2:22

So okay.

SPEAKER_02 2:24

Yeah.

Naming Defensiveness And Why It Shows Up

SPEAKER_01 2:24

A little calling forward there.

SPEAKER_02 2:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:26

These impromptu questions sometimes are so let's get into this topic about navigating defensiveness in relationships. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:33

And I I think what I'd like to start with is that, you know, when we whenever we get together to do these podcasts, we don't really know what we're going to talk about until we get together. We're like, what do you want to talk about? And even before we did that, we naturally started just having a conversation about life and talking about how um, you know, whenever you're having a conversation with someone that feels maybe confrontational on for you that you're being confronted with something, some truth that the other person carries, that there's a tendency to feel like you need to defend yourself.

The Walk: When Listening Turns To Defense

SPEAKER_01 3:07

Yeah. I mean, recently, and this happens all the time, it's been something that's been told to me forever. But I've been, you know, trying to work on creating a safe place, specifically with like interpersonal relationships with my kids and my wife. And what's what's hard is because they say, oh, well, you don't feel safe to talk to sometimes. And so, you know, me and my wife will go on walks to to have our talk sometimes. And it makes it easier just because we're moving and things don't feel so heavy. Um, but I had a chance to ask her how she felt about, you know, something that I had done or how I had made her feel. And I really thought I was in a position to be open to hear that. And as soon as she started to, you know, become vulnerable and start to tell me how she felt, right away I would, I got defensive. And I'd started to feel like, oh, I need to justify. Like I didn't mean to hurt, you know, like all of these things. What I noticed is that I can't my nervous system goes into overdrive if I feel that I've hurt somebody and I I can't be responsible for the person, you know, be the person that hurt them. So that just triggers something to me to want to defend. And what that did in that particular instance was shut the entire conversation down. She was she had to stop divulging or you're being vulnerable and telling me how she felt because I now had to be heard, you know, and how, you know, it wasn't my fault or whatever the the justifications were, which are nonsense because it didn't even allow her to have the first, you know, what the intention of the conversation was to be heard. Yeah. To to divulge what she wanted to hear. And that I asked the question, how do you feel? How does this feel? And I couldn't even allow her to answer because of my defensiveness. It just triggered me to want to defend.

Shame, Guilt, And Being Cast The Villain

SPEAKER_02 5:02

Yeah, I can that probably shut her down. Yeah. And so that was the end of the conversation. And so the conversation Yeah, she had to walk away.

SPEAKER_01 5:09

Yeah, because it was like, still, you're you I can't I can't tell you anything. And it was like, but no, wait, I'm I'm trying to listen, but I wasn't.

SPEAKER_02 5:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:18

You know, afterwards, in retrospect, I was able to kind of just think, well, what was that? And I realized it was more specifically because I'm involved in the hurt. And I'm I just wondered, you know, I've done a lot of work to work on shame and guilt of those things, and somehow I'm still not okay with hearing that from the hearing that you're the villain. Yeah, that I'm the villain. So trying to find ways to to overcome that defensiveness is what we're talking about here today.

Parenting Regrets And Holding Space

SPEAKER_02 5:50

Yeah, and and the thing is too, is like that's with even years of work. That's even with years of like working on you know, self-awareness and and like to some degree owning your own behavior and things that you've changed and have wanted to change. And so now part of the healing process is really, you know, making amends, right? With things that we've realized that we've done to hurt someone. Um, but uh an even harder part of that process is being able to hold that, like to hear it, and then to just be able to to like validate the other person's experience without making ourselves suddenly the victim in the story of being able to hear it, you know, because it's hard. I think it's really hard to hear that you've hurt someone or that you've done something that, you know, led them to feel sad or angry or pull away from you. And it's not a difficult, it's a difficult place to be to hear that with humility and just calm and and be able to um not feel like you need to defend your own behavior, especially when I think I would imagine for you is like I'm not doing that anymore. What do you mean?

SPEAKER_01 7:05

Yeah, and in a weird way, uh that word attacked comes. It's not like I'm not being attacked, but I'm being accused of you felt attacked. Yeah, I feel attacked. That's in that moment I do.

SPEAKER_02 7:13

And then what does anyone do when in the moment they feel attacked is they start to put up their defenses, which gets you the opposite of what you were actually trying to do in that.

SPEAKER_01 7:24

Yeah, and this is years of practicing, you know, intense in intentional listening and trying to, you know, repeat back and make the person feel uh heard. You could still have all those practices. But if if it happens to be, if I'm not able to recognize my own triggers in those moments, I'm not able to correct to make that adjustment.

SPEAKER_02 7:42

Like you could have all the logical, the knowledge, you've read all the books, but in real time game time, when it comes down to having the conversation and really being able to be present, a lot of times our old defenses will sneak back in. And I found it even for myself. I mean, I know on on in my healing process, right? Like even my biggest things is what I've, you know, how I've affected my children. And there are many things as a mother, and I'm sure with every parent that they've done or said something that they really regret. And I would say it took a while for me to actually be able to sit and hold space for listening to how I've hurt them, you know, like even in small ways and big ways. And I realize when I would even ask, like, yeah, you know, tell me, tell me, tell me all how I've hurt you, because that's a big part of the healing process, right? Is like even for my children to be able to voice to me how I've hurt them helps them to process those emotions that have maybe been stuck. And I know that. And but still, even sitting with them and hearing it, it's not easy because there's that small self that wants to be like, but you don't understand, like I had you when I was 17, or you know, we didn't have money, or I was really stressed, and I had lack of maturity, and it's like, yeah, yeah, but they're not asking for why you did, they're just asking to be heard.

Tears, Triggers, And Not Making It About You

SPEAKER_03 9:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:10

And there's a there was a part of me that I had to really check. And I know I think I described it to you as like making my surface area much larger so that I could just hold what was coming at me and instead of taking it personal, which literally felt like a tidal wave of guilt and shame coming on me. Right. Because I think one of the biggest things for me is if someone told me I'm you're a bad mother, that's like the worst triggering wound that I could feel. And having to hear from my own children how I've hurt them or, you know, shut them down or didn't support them at some point. It's triggering all of my own insecurities as who I am as a mom. But if I'm in that story, I'm not able to be present to hear them for the process of healing.

SPEAKER_01 9:57

Yeah, and it takes m many a conversation in practice to get there. It wasn't just one conversation that just worked.

SPEAKER_02 10:04

No, it wasn't.

SPEAKER_01 10:06

It wasn't.

SPEAKER_02 10:07

I mean, but it it is, it's a natural reaction, right? Because it's self-protection, your ego pops up, um, and there's a fear of being wrong, of doing it wrong. All of those things are natural instinctual things that come up when we're being challenged with especially with our own behavior, and especially when that behavior is tied to guilt that you have. Um, but it absolutely just shuts down communication. So even in instances where if my child was telling me something, my adult child is now telling me something that I've done that I've hurt them, I could I've been in that situation where I would start to cry, right? Because I feel bad. Like I literally feel terrible.

SPEAKER_01 10:49

Is that an inappropriate response in that moment, you think, too?

SPEAKER_02 10:52

I wouldn't say that it's inappropriate. I think for me, if it wasn't, it was something I was like, I don't even know how to hold this back.

SPEAKER_03 10:59

Yeah.

Self-Safety Versus Feeling Attacked

SPEAKER_02 11:00

But also even that shuts down the conversation because now my child becomes responsible for your yeah for my feelings, you know, which this was a time for them to be heard. So it did. It took some time for me to like understand that. And I think that it wasn't just about understanding that. I think it's about, you know, part of it is about forgiving myself, you know, that when I knew better, I could do better. You know, and at the time I didn't. And I can own that. And I think a big piece of it is is forgiving yourself before you go into those conversations. Or if you're not in a position to do that before you have the conversation, is to, you know, understand that that's part of what's happening and do some work around that.

SPEAKER_01 11:48

Yeah, I mean yourself. In many ways, I feel like, you know, I've been doing going deep and grinding on trying to work on the shame and the guilt. And, you know, a lot of it is, you know, the difficulty understanding what I was capable of.

SPEAKER_02 12:05

You mean back then?

SPEAKER_01 12:07

Even now, I mean, it you could be capable, I mean, you could look at somebody who's hurting me or being an asshole or being a jerk, and like I can be mad or I can go, I'm I'm capable of all of those things that that person is also doing in this moment based on whatever's going on with them. So I I don't know how to take away, you know, it it being personal when the other person is trying to divulge how I hurt them. And that's that's where the difficulty lies for me. And I think you're right, like trying to work through the shame. And I feel like I've been working hard on that, but some ways, somehow, I'm still stuck. Um, and I think there's level, just like everything, there's levels to it, you know, to to the healing. You think you've I've already dealt with that.

SPEAKER_02 12:57

Yeah. Well, and it's like knock knock. Yeah, it's still here.

SPEAKER_01 13:02

Yeah.

unknown 13:04

Yeah.

Authenticity Gaps At Home And In Public

SPEAKER_02 13:05

Just think when you've got you, just when you think you've gotten over that hurdle, then there's another teacher that shows up. And I know when you were talking about like even the conversation while you're having a walk and you're like, tell me how you felt. And my question was to you was, what were you making it mean when she said, You hurt me in this way?

SPEAKER_01 13:26

Well, in a lot of ways, I had a question of like, oh, am I hurting you right now? Or am I have I not changed? Are you not see what I've done? And those that's those were the initial thoughts. It's like, but I've do, I'm doing, I'm doing all this work. It's that unworthiness or not doing enough, like you know, oddly enough, about our cards that you said, one of your my your pet peeves about my insecurities is kind of overdoing.

SPEAKER_02 13:52

So in that moment, instead of hearing that this is what was the experience from in the past, it's like you, it's almost like you were making it about like you in that moment or like the present you.

SPEAKER_01 14:08

Yeah. And it and there was no reason to even go there because it the conversation had initially just basically started almost. So, but right away it goes into defensiveness. And that just shuts down the whole conversation. And I and and I was in a position where I thought, okay, I'm ready to hear this stuff. You know? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:28

You thought you were ready, but then boom, here's ego. Here's the walls come back up, self-protection.

SPEAKER_01 14:36

And it and it and it's not because she doesn't make me feel safe, is that I don't feel safe within myself, is it's kind of what I'm I've been thinking about and really ruminating in my head, like, oh, you know, I think it's really a safety within myself.

SPEAKER_02 14:50

What does that mean to you?

Surrender, Humility, And Inner Observer

SPEAKER_01 14:52

Um you know, it's hard when people say they don't feel safe to talk to me. It feels strange because in my other relationships, I I have the the opposite response. But I'm trying to analyze like what's the real what's the difference here? What's the pattern? And I think it really just relies in uh how I move within myself and what I feel with my own shame and my own guilt on what I've done and what I'm capable of and those things. And maybe I still do see that I'm still capable of those things and in some ways.

SPEAKER_02 15:24

So you haven't learned to really trust your own healing.

SPEAKER_01 15:30

I guess, yeah. Like, oh, he's still there.

SPEAKER_02 15:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:33

Yeah. That old and the old me is still there. And and that's one of the things that, you know, is one of my you know, biggest triggers is whenever somebody, you know, makes it seem like I haven't done any work.

SPEAKER_02 15:45

Ah.

SPEAKER_01 15:46

Right?

SPEAKER_02 15:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:47

But then if I just throw that back on me, that's that's that's a Noelle thing.

SPEAKER_02 15:51

Do I not think that I've done enough work?

SPEAKER_01 15:55

And all of that, just to say, you could be doing all of the work. And if you're not listening, you could be doing all the wrong work that your partner or the person that you're having the conflict with is asking you to change. So I may have changed all of A through, you know, Z, but I I forgot one of these in between somewhere. You know, there's so there's something that I've I left out.

SPEAKER_02 16:20

Well, I think the challenges are always in our most personal relationships.

SPEAKER_01 16:24

Yeah. You know. Well, because you got grit in the game. You know, you're you're you're in.

SPEAKER_02 16:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:30

You know, there's something to lose.

unknown 16:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:32

And and on the surface level relationships, it's easy just to cut off.

SPEAKER_02 16:36

Yeah. Or to put your best foot forward. You know, they get the ambassador of you.

SPEAKER_01 16:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:42

Right? When our family and our deepest, you know, relationships get like the whole view.

SPEAKER_01 16:48

I mean, that's what I'm most guilty of.

SPEAKER_02 16:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:51

Is really trusting that, you know, that deepest part of yourself to to fully be present in all relationships, not just the ones that you don't have as much skin in the game, grit in the game, what is it?

Validation Over Explanation

SPEAKER_01 17:03

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And in some ways, just hearing you say that, you know, like it even Aiden has said, my oldest son has said that, you know, it it seems like you're not very authentic because you're different, you know, as an ambassador in front of everybody than you are at home. And so if I listen to that in a deep level, what I'm really hearing is is I'm I don't seem authentic to him all the time. And I think being safe is being the same person all the time. Being, you know, finding that peace within yourself.

SPEAKER_02 17:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:33

You know, finding that balance.

SPEAKER_02 17:35

What do you think the last the holdout is on that?

SPEAKER_01 17:38

On what?

SPEAKER_02 17:39

On like being able to just, you know, be that at all times.

SPEAKER_01 17:45

Hmm. I'm not sure if I knew I would I'd probably be there, but I think the answer is serenity, you know, to surrender to it.

SPEAKER_02 17:54

Yeah, surrender.

SPEAKER_01 17:55

To let it let that shift go. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 17:58

Yeah, and you know what I I also think it's like being able to to take the criticism, to to hear it and humble yourself, humble your humble yourself before it. Um and forgive yourself, you know, at the same time. It's like I think just being able to hold that space of listening and I mean, I know for me at some at some points when I've when I've had to sit, you know, especially with my kids or with my husband and hear them out about how my behavior has affected them.

SPEAKER_03 18:37

Yeah.

Role-Playing To Deactivate Triggers

SPEAKER_02 18:37

It's like I literally have to imagine making myself um bigger. Not like bigger than them, but like wider, bigger than the small self that is listening from the egoic place. Almost listening from like separating myself and into the observer of what's happening and the observer of their experience and listening to what their experience was and not making it about me, Lena, their mom. Just really listening to this soul who is saying they were hurt and just having compassion for them while not having to defend myself. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_00 19:17

Yeah, it does.

SPEAKER_02 19:19

Which is not easy. So I'm not saying to anyone who's listening, like, oh, that's an easy thing to do.

SPEAKER_01 19:24

Like to detach from that situation.

SPEAKER_02 19:25

To detach, to detach, detach your and detach doesn't mean you don't care, but it's like to detach yourself from personally from being the villain. Because as the observer, you also see this part of yourself that feels like the villain and can love that person too, you know, and love the the story that they were in at the time and and you know, the changes that they've tried to make, and but also loving the person who was hurt and understanding that that those are real feelings. Like feelings are valid. I I couldn't, I remember growing up or just just in, you know, my own experience, when my emotions were invalidated or or someone told me why I shouldn't feel that way, whatever that was, that was insanity to me. It's like, how can you tell me what I feel is not valid that I'm wrong for feeling that? Like, that's wrong. It's wrong to do that. Whatever their experience is is real. That's their perspective, that's how they experienced me or you. Um, and invalidating it just shuts down the conversation. Like in some way, we think we feel better because we've defended and we tell them, well, you you were wrong. You just didn't understand what's happening at the time. But that's invalidating, you know, what they felt.

SPEAKER_01 20:41

Yeah, not willing to see it from their perspective.

SPEAKER_02 20:44

And there's no healing that's gonna come from that.

SPEAKER_01 20:47

So recently, one of the methods of trying to overcome this defensiveness, I I found it's it's helpful to do role-playing.

SPEAKER_03 20:57

Uh-huh.

Practice The Pause And Reflective Listening

SPEAKER_01 20:57

So, you know, I really kind of went down and write wrote down a lot of, you know, specifically with my wife, some of the, you know, specific complaints of of how it is, how it feels to talk to me, things, you just a memory bank of things that have been said to me over time, of some of the chief complaints. And then I become Ellen and my therapist is me. And I now have to, with the motivation of what I think Ellen feels, now try to divulge or be vulnerable and then see what it feels like to explain what it feels, you know, to me. And really what I found is when I tried to put myself in her shoes, it I see how hard it is to talk to me. Yeah. And it really gave me a perspective of like, ugh, you know, I do make it really difficult, especially if I if I cry or if I defend. Uh, you know, it's that that's not what needs to be happening here. So really going into and and doing role playing, yeah. Before I have the conversation with the actual said person, it's it's been taking the steam out of the triggers.

SPEAKER_02 22:08

I can see that.

SPEAKER_01 22:09

You know, and it's a practice of the conversation that needs to be had, the hard conversations.

SPEAKER_02 22:15

Yeah. So role-playing would be a good thing to practice even with a friend, a therapist, um, and really trying to step into the shoes of the other person.

SPEAKER_01 22:27

Yeah, just to really get in tune with what you know with the direction that they've given you the entire relationship. If you listen to the narrative, it's been there the whole time. And I really had to tap into that, you know. Yeah. Try to like a method actor almost and like really take it serious.

SPEAKER_02 22:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:50

And when I did that, then it becomes real. And it's like, oh. Then you're like, wow, it is hard. It is hard to talk to me. It must suck. You know?

One-Sided Shares And The Talking Stick

SPEAKER_02 23:00

Well, I mean, not on all levels. I talk to you all the time.

SPEAKER_01 23:02

And yeah, but I mean, that's the thing.

SPEAKER_02 23:04

I think it's those interpersonal relationships where there's the or where the most um hurts have been. You know, because you could either just say, well, I'm, I'm just, I don't want to hear it. I'm gonna shut down this relationship because I can't handle how hard I've been, you know. And but then that's not going to heal the relationship. It's not going to actually, it's not even going to help you heal because you're not taking ownership of how you've affected someone else.

SPEAKER_01 23:33

Yeah. When a good defense loses the game.

SPEAKER_02 23:39

Yeah, a good defense can't lose the game. Okay, so what are some other because one of the things I want, you know, whenever people are listening to this, is one to figure out like if some part of this is resonating for you. If you are right now thinking about someone in your life that you know there there's hard conversations to be had, but you've just been afraid to do it because it's you feel too guilty, too shameful. Um, you're gonna feel this extreme need to defend yourself. Like, how many people in your life do you have things like that with? Right.

SPEAKER_03 24:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:15

And just thinking from the perspective of one, like you're talking about role-playing and thinking about how hard is it for that person to come to you to tell you how you've hurt them. Think about that. Like, I have we all have people like that in our lives.

SPEAKER_01 24:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:30

Are you able to just sit with listening to the experience of someone else when it comes to you? Right. So some of the things that are recommended are one is practicing a pause. And that's just you're going to have a sit down and have a conversation with someone, whether it's at work or professionally, is before you respond to them, is to practice taking a pause. Right. Not to just step right into reactivity.

SPEAKER_01 25:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:00

Like there's a stimulus, there's a response.

SPEAKER_01 25:03

So don't have a reaction.

SPEAKER_02 25:04

Don't have a reaction. Just maybe you even make a rule for yourself that you're going to take a long deep breath through your nose. And then you're going to thoughtfully respond. Right. And think about this conversation, this podcast right now. Um, and then reflective listening. So, and we've talked about reflective listening, um deep listening, yeah, in the past. And so focusing on truly hearing and validating the other person.

SPEAKER_01 25:33

And that's a simple, you know, step. And I think in some ways, I've also heard in especially when you have triggers like this and you're not able to kind of fully hear.

SPEAKER_02 25:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:45

And you're in the early part of maybe healing in your relationship, just handle one side at a time.

SPEAKER_03 25:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:51

It's it it's I've got the conch. You know what I mean? And this isn't like Noelle gets to like defend or talk about his grievances. This is this person's gonna share.

SPEAKER_02 26:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:02

And that's all.

SPEAKER_02 26:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:04

And we're gonna breathe on it, we're gonna think about it, and we're gonna come back, put a pen in it, and come back and talk about it.

SPEAKER_02 26:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:10

You know, and and that may be That's like a long pause. Yeah, that's a long pause.

SPEAKER_02 26:15

Like let you sit with it. Yeah. Ooh, that's hard because if you're somebody that is very defensive, it it feels like torture.

SPEAKER_01 26:23

Well, you can set it's it's important to set a date of like the pause, you know, like hey, we're gonna touch base tomorrow. Or, you know, so so because it'd be unfair to the other person to have like an a blank check of like when they get their reprocity, you know? Yeah, reciprocity. Reciprocity, yeah. Like that that's not gonna, that won't fly. I would be you know anxious to even about that.

Hearing Heated Delivery Without Retaliation

SPEAKER_02 26:44

So what so that suggestion would be to allow the the person to voice um their grievance or how they were hurt, and maybe even plan that there will not be a response to that right away, that you're just gonna let that be and then be able to come back and respond. You it could even be in an hour, right? It could be whatever. You know, one of the techniques that I've used in the past is the talking stick.

SPEAKER_03 27:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:14

Remember the talking stick? Um, this is where you have like a stick. The name I got of a made by Native American, so I think they're in a circle. So you have a talking stick or an object, and the person who has the object is the only one who can speak. And you cannot speak unless you have the object or the talking stick. That's allowing that person to be seen and to be heard.

SPEAKER_01 27:38

Um, the other thing is it seems silly though, but it's it it's it's a very visual and it it keeps people grounded, if you will.

SPEAKER_02 27:45

Yeah. You know, I have to do it with with Mondo sometimes, an imaginary talking stick, and say, you do not have the stick. I'm still talking. You know, when I give you the stick, then it's gonna be your turn and I can't talk. So just giving each other space to express. And another thing with you know, the um listening is repeating back what you heard them say.

SPEAKER_01 28:10

Yeah, that's the part of the validating part.

SPEAKER_02 28:12

I think that's one of the most powerful things you can do in a conversation is to allow someone to finish and just say, Okay, are you complete? In their words, yeah. Is there anything else? And then to say, what I hear you say is this and say, is that right? And when you do that, it really diffuses any kind of like uh, I don't know, heat in the conversation of like, oh, I gotta, I gotta say this, you're not getting me. And if they say no, then let them say how that was not correct, or to say, yes, that's correct. And then to ask, like, would I want to know? I want to know more.

SPEAKER_01 28:47

A deepening question.

SPEAKER_02 28:48

A deepening question.

SPEAKER_01 28:50

Okay.

Validation Encourages Understanding

SPEAKER_02 28:52

Yeah, just being able to say, I hear that, you know, you feel hurt with and without jumping to a defense. You're just saying, I hear you. Is this right? Is this what you meant? Yes. And then it's not you jump to, well, let me tell you why you're wrong. Right. Or let me tell you why I did that. We don't want to know why you did that. We just want you to hear how it made us feel. I think that's something a lot of people don't understand.

SPEAKER_01 29:17

Yeah, it's it's it's I think people take that for granted.

SPEAKER_02 29:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:22

That that's a it's a real even for me. I mean, you would I that's what I would expect. That's what I would want. I would pre prefer that. What? Just to be heard and just the one side, and I don't want to hear somebody else's like why they did it. Why they did it.

unknown 29:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:36

That's a major point.

SPEAKER_01 29:37

Sometimes that you do want to know.

SPEAKER_02 29:39

But I'll ask you, yeah, why did you do this? If one someone's not asking you why did you do this, don't please don't jump to your defense. You know? It's what when you did this, it made me feel sad, made me feel unseen. You know, a a proper response. Would be, so what you're saying is when I did this, when I left you there at the restaurant or whatever, I didn't show up on time, you felt sad and you felt like you weren't important. Is that right? Yes.

SPEAKER_01 30:18

And and and let's be clear, like the person that may be divulging may not be nice about it.

SPEAKER_02 30:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:23

Their delivery may not be, you made me feel this and all nice. It may be, you're a fucking asshole. You did. I mean, seriously, it could be right, you're right. You have to be willing to hear even an emotionally imbalanced complaint. Complaint. You have to be able to, you have to allow them whatever it comes out to hear it in that way.

SPEAKER_02 30:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:46

And that's what you have to prepare for.

SPEAKER_02 30:48

You can't say, well, they weren't being nice, well, I'm not going to be nice.

SPEAKER_01 30:50

Yeah. No, you are responsible for yourself. I mean, within reason, you know what I mean? Yeah. Within reason. But I but for the most part, you need to allow that person to be heard, whatever expression and form they need to.

Closing Reflection And Listener Invite

SPEAKER_02 31:01

I'll tell you, like, if you are able to hear someone's complaint out and you say, is this what you're saying? Yes, the it diffuses the anger. It does. It diffuses the anger down. So it's worth a try. There is a book out called um, what wait a minute. There's one that's called Overcoming Defenses, but there's another one that I thought was good. It was How to Listen, Hear, and Validate. It's by Patrick King. And one of the um quotes he has in it, let me see if I can find it. There's so many beneficial things to he says validation encourages deeper understanding. And I think that that is exactly what we're talking about. Is if you can say I heard you and I understand this is what you feel, can you tell me if that's right? Did I get that right? It will it will validate the person's feelings, and there may be room for that conversation to go in a place that's more um positive, that's more nurturing, that leads to actually healing.

SPEAKER_01 32:13

So do better.

SPEAKER_02 32:15

Do better. When you know better, you do better. So here's um a closing reflection.

SPEAKER_01 32:22

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 32:23

What I would like to do is invite the listeners to just try a small exercise. And the next time you feel defensive, just pause and ask yourself why. Why do you feel dis defensive? What story are you making about what you're hearing? And just choose to listen fully before you respond. Like let them finish. And I really feel like this practice can deepen relationships over time. And isn't that what we want? We want that ripple of healing. We want people in our lives that are most important to us to feel seen, to feel heard, to feel safe in our presence. To feel like you can tell me anything.

SPEAKER_01 33:16

Yeah, that's my biggest wish. And it happens to be my biggest challenge.

SPEAKER_02 33:21

Well, right now you're living your curriculum.

SPEAKER_01 33:23

Yeah. Do better.

SPEAKER_00 33:33

All right, that's been another episode of Let That Ship Go podcast. I'm Noelle.

SPEAKER_02 33:38

And I'm Lena. Let us know what your questions are, and we'd love to use them on a future episode. Or check us out on Insta at Let That Ship Go or visit our website, SerenityCove Temecula.com.