The Payments Experts Podcast
Expert payments attorneys discuss the electronic payments industry from a legal perspective.
The Payments Experts Podcast
From Cash to Digital: Trust Factors in Payment Solutions | Exact Payments Brandon Zorner | PEP031
Unlock the secrets of payment facilitation and discover how trust shapes our financial decisions. Join us as James Huber and Jeremy Stock sit down with the Chief Sales Officer, Brandon Zorner, of Exact Payments, who offers an insider's view into the role of non-bank entities like Western Union in delivering secure financial services. Why do some people prefer cash transactions and non-traditional financial services? Find out how trust factors come into play and why these alternatives remain popular.
Ever wondered how payment facilitators like Exact Payments streamline merchant onboarding and payment processes? We unpack the intricacies of the Payfac model, using Toast, a restaurant software platform, as a prime example. Learn what it means to be a "merchant of record" and how efficient onboarding and compliance add significant value. We also contrast these modern solutions with traditional payment gateways and merchant accounts, highlighting their advantages and challenges.
Finally, journey with us through the diverse landscape of business payment solutions. Our guest shares their fascinating career path, from working in Bolivia for a crowdfunding company to joining Western Union in San Francisco. Explore Western Union's ongoing relevance and the trust factors that keep it viable amidst modern payment alternatives like Venmo and Zelle. We also delve into the implications of new systems like FedNow and RTP, shedding light on how Exact Payments helps businesses integrate these advanced solutions. Don't miss out on these invaluable insights into the evolving world of payments!
Visit our guest: Exact Payments https://exactpay.com/
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A payments podcast of Global Legal Law Firm
It's really trust related and folks just don't trust banks, so non-bank financial institutions have big populations that prefer to use them.
Speaker 2:So they trust Western Union more than they trust a bank Like what if the stagecoach gets robbed on the way?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know it's interesting. I like it's been so long since I worked in that industry. I have no clue what like creates that trust for folks, but I do think a lot of folks prefer to operate in cash as well.
Speaker 2:Like I'm going to take 200 bucks and send it to Jeremy so he can. You know that, cause that was the other part of the story. It was the dad was sending him money, yeah.
Speaker 3:Welcome to the payments experts podcast, a podcast of global Legal Law Firm. We hope you enjoy this episode.
Speaker 2:What's your role at Exact Payments?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I'm our Chief Sales Officer, which means that I lead all the new revenue for Exact's business.
Speaker 2:Okay, and what are you guys focusing on?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so Xact started as a payments gateway in the early 2000s and we started in Canada, in Vancouver, Canada. So over time have evolved into what we are today, which is a payment facilitation as a service provider for North America. So we do about $150 billion in payment processing volume each year and focus on providing payment facilitation as a service to vertical software platforms, or essentially, software platforms that have merchants who need to process under them.
Speaker 2:Are you guys a registered payment facilitator to need to?
Speaker 1:process under them. Are you guys a registered payment facilitator? We are, and actually of folks in the space, we're one of the few that is a registered payment facilitator. I know a lot of folks are trying to land those, but it's a privileged spot. So we are registered. Payfac on US Bank and Elbon.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's great. I mean, for a long time, people there was actually like the term of art. People are like payback, I'm a payback and I was like what? So you're just laundering money, basically. And then there was merchant of record, which I'll still hear, which is not even a term anywhere. Someone's made that up. How do you guys? You guys say do you know what I'm talking about?
Speaker 1:merchant of record yeah, I do, we. So I used to work for uber and we use the term merchant of record a lot, uh, because we were working on a marketplace uh model, um, but yeah, at exact payments. In fact, it's actually pretty easy. There's a public list of registered payment facilitators that MasterCard puts out there and so we are on that list and we are a registered payment facilitator with merchants sitting under us. Typically that involves having a for-benefit of account that you settle funds into Merchant of record. Oftentimes you'll settle funds into the merchant account and then for folks who want to use a merchant record model to disperse to merchants, there's some questions around. You know how you would do that in a compliant fashion that you're probably better situated to answer than I would be.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so why don't you walk through if you can really high level, you know, maybe you know payment facilitator for dummies, if you can explain what Exact does as payment facilitator for dummies, if you can explain what Xact does as a payment facilitator, like, why would anybody use a payment facilitator and how does that work.
Speaker 1:Yeah, definitely. So I think it's helpful to start with just our customer and understanding. You know who the end customer is, which is the software platforms, and a lot of times I like to use the example of someone like Toast. So Toast is a software platforms, and a lot of times I like to use the example of someone like Toast. So Toast is a software platform in the restaurant space and they are payment facilitated themselves, but they support, let's say, like you know, taquerias, burger shops, etc. And they started with something that allowed you to, you know, assign a table or, or you know, show a menu and do all those types of things and moved into the obvious use case for a restaurant is you need to accept funds for someone's tacos or whatever as well, and so the things that someone like Toast is going to need to do when they are thinking about accepting payments on behalf of merchants is they're going to need to initially onboard a merchant. So that's like the first step of payment facilitation is onboarding merchants, and that's where a lot of the value is added. Traditionally in payments, you have a gateway and some merchant account need to find a way to tie those together and take a bunch of paperwork, approvals etc. Weeks, maybe months, to get that done. Payfact has enabled third-party software providers like us to just go and underwrite a merchant and do that more or less instantaneously or same day. And so that's the first thing is you onboard the merchant, and that's what a lot of payment facilitation is focused on.
Speaker 1:The second piece is payments. So you make sure that you can accept payment card credentials with the software platform and often, like, um you know, embed those into an interface that's that's available for merchants, and so we are pci compliant. We shield folks from pci compliance as a part of that. Uh, then you do you do payouts. So you need to make sure that all the merchants get paid out through toast platform, right? Um, uh, make sure that the restaurant gets their payment.
Speaker 1:If you order a hundred dollars with tacos, typically the payout will be $97 for the tacos and 3% as a payment fee or something like that. And then you do reporting. So a taqueria or a hamburger shop is going to want to know how much did we accept in payments, how much did we actually get paid, which payments failed. That's all reporting. We allow our partners who would be a software platform like Toast to actually pull that reporting from our APIs and on the back end, like things that folks wouldn't really experience. We're managing to fight fraud, handle chargebacks, do all of the ledger and reconciliation for folks. That's like PayFact at its core, split into the different functions of a PayFact, and then there's a definition of PayFact that involves oftentimes that for benefit of account model.
Speaker 2:So what's the benefit of using a payfac rather than just going the traditional route?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I think this goes back to, you know, when we were operating as Gateway.
Speaker 1:We have platforms today with us who, even you know, still choose to operate in this route, but a lot of what what you'll need to do is is just, in order to set up payments, is to sign up with someone like a gateway provider, uh, then connect that the gateway is gonna like accept card credentials for you as your software platform.
Speaker 1:So, again, like your toast or well, we can use a different example, which would be someone like housecall Pro that does field services. They actually have big San Diego offices for a while, where I know you're based, but those types of folks are going to be a software layer that just wants to allow people to accept payments. They have a gateway connection that allows them to accept payments, but in order for someone to get a merchant account, that person's going to have to go to Chase or they're going to have to go to Fiserv, or they're going to have to go to someone and get a merchant account set up, and that process is again tedious, usually slow, underwriting can be paper that has to get faxed back and forth, and so really the core of what Payback Innovation allowed for when you think of like Square as one of the first Payfax is underwriting merchants, small merchants, quickly. That's like what the Payback model was designed for and it's evolved from that into what is today, which is embedded financial services for software platforms well square.
Speaker 2:I mean, they don't even underwrite the merchants, they just approve them and then they underwrite them three months later and then keep all their money and, uh, terminate them.
Speaker 1:So yeah, yeah, there's been a variety of uh folks that have tried to, you know, do that in the space. So essentially, do this delayed underwriting and we pay. As another example, you know, like that didn't work out terribly well, for we pay either um the, but what we do is we fully underwrite the merchants up front. So that's why it's uh, you know, it's the same day underwriting process. At that point you can process payments and you'll get your funds settled to you in t plus two days. So there's no like staged onboarding or withholding of funds for folks, and so that onboarding experience is great.
Speaker 1:It's also nice to be able to participate in the economics of the payment, which is, you know, the advantage for us as a payment facilitator. Back when we were selling direct merchant payments, we had to go to each merchant and, and you know, knock on their door or call them, sell payments to them. Now that we have software platforms that are essentially acquisition channels for us, they have a sticky customer base, and so if you're already using Housecall Pro as a field services organization to handle your plumbing or your HVAC business, then you're very likely to want to go and do payments with them as well, and that's an easy customer acquisition channel for us. So it reduces our cost of customer acquisition, allows us to share in the economics with our customers and then allows those businesses to scale with a pretty sticky value prop.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean a payment facilitator. Basically, you've got the keys to the castle. You step into the shoes of the processor and the bank in a large way, and that you can approve the account account. You're responsible. So, uh, you know everything you said about getting your accounts proved. So if it's these businesses, if your business is really expanding and you're opening up more locations and there are different merchant accounts, I'm going, yeah, go with a payment facilitator because you're going to get white glove treatment.
Speaker 2:The other thing too is, you know, like said, you guys have the keys to the castle. Arguably, you know, if you guys wanted to make a ton of money in six months and then flee to a non extradition case, I mean you could be selling. You can sign someone up selling cocaine for a hot minute for a while before anybody caught it, for a hot minute, for a while before anybody caught it. So you know our listeners that want to sell cocaine. They can probably give you a call and say like, look, here's the proposition. I just need six months and we're all out of here.
Speaker 3:It's a big part of our audience, james, a big big um.
Speaker 1:so we like, we, we, we take our responsibility in financial services like very seriously, and what that means is that we don't touch like illicit substances, like cocaine or or other things. There's even legal substances in certain states, like marijuana, that we won't process for.
Speaker 2:Right. So that is my point. And so when you have it, you know if you have a really good business that's in the gray. I would say, yeah, go to a payment facilitator because, look and I'm not saying you guys do anything wrong, because of course not, but you could help these people if they come to you and they're saying, hey, this is how I'm doing it and a lot of places can do this, but then they have to go upstream to the processor and the bank to get it approved. So there is those merchant advocacy groups where, hey, I'm selling something online and they'll go, ok, well, we got to look at your terms and conditions.
Speaker 2:Yeah, take this thing off, where you're saying Oprah endorses it, because I don't think she does, and all that stuff to get you in compliance with the FTC and the FDA and everything like that. But the benefit is, if you go to somebody like you guys and just a payment facilitator in general, you're able to get the approval and that approval is final. I mean, I know you guys answer to the card brand still, but for somebody that's operating in a way like that, that gives that extra layer of safety because, right, let's square. You know people were going up and signing up marijuana accounts and they're just getting them a square account. It gets shut down every three months. Or same thing with, you know, going over to First Data or Fiserv. People are getting these accounts approved, running them like crazy and then they're getting shut down. But if I'm with a payment facilitator and you've approved me, that's much more of a final decision, right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, I think that there's a variety of models out there and payfac, I wouldn't actually say, is a good model for high risk business and and there's a variety of reasons for that. But, like just going back to the core of what a payment facilitator is, you have a sponsor bank and an acquirer on the back end that you've been underwritten with, so they essentially do a primary underwriting of you and then you have obligations as a part of your agreement and relationship with them to do your own underwriting. And there's two types of risk and payments, right, it's transactions risk and then there's compliance risk. And so from a transactional risk perspective, you're right, Like we hold entirely the bag on transaction risk and that's another reason why folks prefer not to do the high risk business. But from a compliance risk perspective, I wouldn't actually say payment facilitators are entirely on their own to determine that.
Speaker 1:You do rely a lot on your partner bank and your partner um, your, you know, your, your acquiring partner, so what I would say there is, like payfax are actually probably not going to be the best home for that type of business, Um, and a lot of scenarios, even though you do own the underwriting decision because you're wanting to maintain a healthy uh relationship to your sponsor bank and then also, um, you know you want to grow your book of like fairly clean business and that.
Speaker 1:So an example of this would be we would do something like auctions, which is arguably like, maybe like a mid risk space, but we would never do auctions for firearms, right Like, and so even something like that that is a little bit more like mid risk. We are probably going to err on the conservative side of as we, as we continue to scale our relationship with our sponsor bank. I think probably where you would want to go is like a high risk processor, if you're trying to process high risk, and, yeah, those folks are going to have the same issues that you just outlined with Square and Fiserv and whatnot.
Speaker 2:Okay, cool. Well, how'd you get into, How'd you get into payments? And you know how did you guys end up going this direction?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so for me personally, I started in payments at Western Union, which is more of a remittance company than like acquiring payments coming around doing merchant processing.
Speaker 1:And so I got into merchant processing at Uber, which is a marketplace for ride share, food delivery, all those types of things ride share, food delivery, all those types of things and then you know exact payments got into payments in the card not present space. With Canadian payment processing, there's really no way to set up an online business with payments in Canada outside of exact payments. And as that business has scaled, we've identified an opportunity to work with vertical software providers a lot of nonprofit, b2b. We work with field services, we work with education, waste management, all those types of things and embed our technology into those platforms in order to enable them to accept payments and to monetize that business like create a business unit out of payments, essentially. And so that's kind of the story of where we've come. But in that process we moved from Vancouver, canada, which used to be our HQ, to Scottsdale, arizona, where we are now and obviously also have much more sizable business than we had back in the early 2000s.
Speaker 2:What got you interested in working in payments? Western Union is a good one. I mean, that's the og right. Wasn't that formed in like the 1700s, or something?
Speaker 1:it is until they were. I mean until they were like market cap went down so they're not on the s&p 500 anymore. I don't think they were the the oldest s&p 500 company out outside of, like union pacific bell or something like 200 plus year old company. Um, but uh, yeah. So I was, I was at uh cornell, which is upstate new york, and, interestingly, the guy who founded cornell was ezra cornell, who's also the founder of western union. So, uh, he, uh, yeah, he, uh, started.
Speaker 1:History of inventing the telephone pole is, at least I think, what the claim is. Um, but uh, the telephone pole, yeah, yeah, which I'm like how do you invent that? It's just like a pole that sticks out of the ground. Yeah, exactly, um, I'm sure, like I'm sure, there was a bunch of nuance in terms how you could mess that up. But the um, but uh, but yeah, so, um, I.
Speaker 1:I then, like went down to bolivia and started working, uh, for a crowdfunding company.
Speaker 1:So there's a company called Vitana it's kind of similar to Kiva that was doing crowdfunding for student loans down there, and when I was working with the microfinance institutes, a lot of them had Western Union locations in them.
Speaker 1:Western Union has like an agent location model where they sign contracts and like put up a sign, but they don't actually own the location, and so the Western Union line was always really long. When I was down there, I was looking to move back to the United States after a little more time in Latin America and Western Union was hiring for a ventures position in their San Francisco office, which is like San Francisco is a cool city, so it was like a really good fit for me. I got me back to the US and was my intro into payments, although I did like I worked at western union for two and a half years and at no point in that time did I know what an acquirer was, um, and so you really learn like a very different payments ecosystem out of that experience was it kind of just fell backwards into payments because this was the job, or were you like hunting that out and going oh, this is interesting, or I just want to go to bolivia, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean like we were doing lending in Bolivia, right. So financial services always interested me. Cornell's in New York and a lot of people like have financial services backgrounds because of New York's focus there, and so technology, financial services always interested me. Specifically payments, probably not. And then yeah, from there definitely fell into payments. Specifically merchant acquiring, right. Like, I think remittance is a very interesting space. It's just very different than what we're focused on at Xact, which is like very domestic-focused and B2B et cetera, whereas remittance is more of a consumer product, right, but yeah, Right, does Western Union still exist?
Speaker 2:What do they do?
Speaker 1:Is it sending money to mexico? Mostly friends and family? Yeah, that type of stuff is old people basically, but there's got to be going away, right? So interesting, I can't tell you. I mean it's been. I worked at western union until 2015, so it's been a while, but the but interestingly at the time. So, uh, the biggest corridors in the world for remittances are like us to ind, to Mexico, us to Philippines. Africa is a big business that usually has higher margin than some of those other countries, but competitors have come into the space and so a lot of the margin got eaten away in remittance. Interestingly, the domestic market at the time I was at Western Union was picking up, so there was more domestic remittance happening. Even though you're like you've got at the same time as you've got venmo and all these other things going on, you've got domestic money transfer via western people.
Speaker 3:I, I kid you not. Just last week my father sent a western union I kid you not to my sister so, and he probably went to the office he went to a walmart oh, I'm not sure, because to him that was easier. We tried to tell him about zell. You know, like dad, you can do it right from your bank account yeah, it's all.
Speaker 2:And because they're all like my bank account has that just in there. I remember one time I was like I don't have zell and then I went to sign up for account. They're like yeah, you already have one yeah, yeah, um, yeah, no.
Speaker 1:I mean that is a lot of the use cases people. It's really more trust-based. So, like people who don't trust traditional financial institutions, like banks, or folks who are are older and and are just used to that process, are going to use western union, and that includes for domestic, even like prepaid cards. In the us, for example, saw an uptick at least during that time, and you'd be like, hey, why are people using prepaid cards? It doesn't make any sense to me, like there's a ton of other better mechanisms to use for payments. But it's really trust related and folks just don't trust banks. So non-bank financial institutions have big populations that prefer to use them.
Speaker 2:So they trust Western Union more than they trust a bank Like what if the stagecoach gets robbed on the way?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know it's interesting. I like it's been so long since I worked in that industry I have no clue what like creates that trust for folks, but I do think a lot of folks prefer to operate in cash as well, like um, yeah, I'm gonna take 200 bucks and send it to jeremy so he can.
Speaker 2:You know that, because that was the other part of the story. It was the dad was sending him money.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I mean he the, yeah, the like. People prefer to handle cash and to see it and like physically manage it. They don't really trust these digital interfaces. Um and so, as much as people talk about that changing it's, it hasn't changed for a long time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, all right. Well, what, uh? What's on the horizon for exact? What do you guys? What are the you know opportunities and and threats?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean like uh, I think that, interestingly, going from our conversation around cash and the same way, consumers have preferences that that like are varied, and some people want to pay in cash, some with card, debit, paypal, like whatever it is businesses are the same way. So, like, businesses want to send and receive their money using different mechanisms and their customers want to send and receive money using different payment methods, and so for Xact, I think we were really focused for a while on making sure that we got underwriting done well, make sure that we can underwrite merchants quickly and efficiently, and now we are much more focused on how do we create, like payment experiences and workflows that allow someone to really pay and get paid in the way that they want to, and that includes things like payouts, right. So, for example, we were one of the first payment facilitations and service providers to really lean into account to account transfers, so like ACH, as an example, and now you've got RTP and FedNow and these other things as well, and what we identified with that was there were all of these like B2B subscription businesses, invoicing businesses, etc. Where traditional payback as a service provider was going to come and say, hey, the card volume is not there and we don't really want to take the risk on a large dollar transaction for your $10,000 or $50,000 invoice, so we don't really want to service you. We came in and said, hey, we're interested in that and ensure it might be an 80% ACH, 20% card split, but we're going to lean into that business. And so, as we've done that, we've explored different verticals. Each of them has nuanced needs and I think that's true across the ecosystem.
Speaker 1:This kind of orchestration of payment methods, orchestration of ways for people to get paid, is becoming increasingly common, and you even see this with Visa-launched network tokens. So we accept network tokens. Stripe accepts network tokens. If you want to get paid across either of our ecosystems and use card credentials from network tokens, they're easy to migrate or transfer them in between the two. We work on transferring merchant data all the time and there's interesting ways to do that. So really, I think it's about focusing on ways for people to get paid and there's a lot of different ways for people to get paid enabling ourselves to do that across different providers. So, for example, if you wanted to work with Stripe in Australia and us in the US, we'll enable you to do that through different tokenization mechanisms that we have, etc. So it's really about building a more collaborative ecosystem with more optionality via orchestration.
Speaker 2:Well, you brought up. I mean, I was like, well, I have like five different podcast topics that we could go on all of these. One of my favorite ones you brought up, um, and I think we all need to put our tinfoil hats on for this one is fed now. So fed now, rolled out pretty quietly, right, and. But you know, my, my, the big thing I brought up is if and. But you know, my, my, the big thing I brought up is if, if they take total control and this wasn't my idea. Somebody else said is what if they put an expiration date on your money and they make you spend it? But what? What is fed now doing right, right now? Because, my, my, what I see is nothing.
Speaker 1:I think they're. Interestingly I think there are China's done that, like China has put an expiration date on funds for for different funds that they've guaranteed, and it creates like interesting incentives, right. So that's definitely a a a cool conversation.
Speaker 2:But if we think about it, how great, for we know that 70% of our GDP is consumer spending. Woo woo, spend it, you know, go for it, you know. Then the other thing the scare like scary thing is, maybe it's a good thing too is like child support automatically, speeding ticket automatically, bing, bing, bing. They're just taking it all right away. But is is FedNow doing anything right now? I think they're using it for their stuff, but I don't.
Speaker 1:So, like I'm not as close to like FedNow and RTP as I should be, I do believe that, like FedNow is hooked into major banks I don't think that they have great penetration amongst, like, regional banks or a lot of, a lot of the longer tail banking system and, as a result of that, I think it's used for interbank transfers at that level, um, but I don't think that there's like a Fed or, you know, fednow rail that's being used regularly by, uh like consumers of a payback, um, and that's part of why, you know, like it's on our roadmap but we have been slow to uh integrate those types of mechanisms because, really, the ACH rail is is working for us today, right, um?
Speaker 2:and so what you said said. Sorry to interrupt is okay. So just, major banks are using fed now, before they were just sending a ledger around. So what? They just they just because they're not sending money between the banks, they're just sending the letters and lines of credit. So what, they're using fed now just to legitimize that they're sending fake money.
Speaker 1:So, um, if you so, if you do want to settle a transaction, you can do it on, you can do it on FedNow rails between major banks, uh and um, and like I do think that there are times where folks are actually looking to move money and and settle funds, right, um, but yeah, I would agree with you.
Speaker 2:I mean, I think it's not moving real money between each other, they're just moving ledgers, right?
Speaker 1:yeah, I mean like like so with fed now they would be settling funds through right.
Speaker 2:I mean like you can't just infinitely move a ledger through uh although that would, are you sure, because I'm pretty sure that's how our whole financial system works yeah, um, yeah, they'll.
Speaker 1:They'll settle funds with, with like FedNow right, and even on our side right, if you look at how we're able to settle funds, we have to move funds between our accounts as well, and currently we do that through financial institutions that we work with. Those financial institutions will have to settle funds as well, and that ecosystem is going to increase. Like people have to integrate into Fed now, and the more banks that are integrated, the easier it'll make for those banks to send instant, instant transfers and make that more efficient, like cheaper, faster, better.
Speaker 2:So yeah, yeah, I mean, I think you're right, I think everyone's going to have to use this process. So I would say, get in front of it. I think you know a ton of you know, particularly businesses would be wise to contact you and be talking about, hey, what's coming and what do I need to do so that it is seamless? Because if you're trying to do this with somebody who's not a payments facilitator you know it's the scrappy iso guy of like okay, I'll put it together, I'll put in touch with this guy, I'll put in touch with this guy, I'll do it. Over here, you guys are a one-stop shop, uh, where you know and I know you guys have your ear to the rail, you're listening about what's coming, coming down, um, so how can uh people get in touch with you if they want to use your services?
Speaker 1:yeah, definitely so. Uh, the best way to get in touch with us is just like either sales at exactpaycom or, if you really want to hit me up at b zorner, so b the letter and then zorner z-o-r-n-e-r at exactpaycom. Um, we also have, if you go to um exactpay, we have a phone number you can call into which I think is actually rare these days, most people are email only and that'll connect you into someone either on our sales or support team. But yeah, I mean, I think we are open to conversations with folks who are merchants that are looking to accept funds.
Speaker 1:Typically, as a merchant, you're going to have to have a developer to do an integration to us, right, and that's. We have payment forms called ExactJS, so you're going to want to at least know how to embed JavaScript in your website, right? But a lot of the folks who we work with are software platforms and that is a much more in-depth process where folks are looking for a long-term partner to scale their payments business. Where folks are looking for a long-term partner to scale their payments business, and we're going to work with them through a process of like, call it three, maybe even six months to land on a model that works for them and begin to build that model out. So it is a more nuanced model in terms of the payments that we're providing and services that we're providing to larger software platforms.
Speaker 2:Awesome. All right, well, brandon, thanks for joining us today. I see our time limit is up. Based on that, jeremy's door to the studio has opened two times in the last couple minutes, so it's a little wrap it up and we look forward to doing this again.
Speaker 1:Awesome, yeah, thanks, thanks, james, thanks, jeremy. Good to speak with both you guys and then, yeah, we will talk soon.
Speaker 3:Brandon, it was great having you on. This has been the Payments Experts Podcast, a podcast of global legal law firms. Today we've had with a special guest, Brandon Zorner of ExactPay. Go check him out over at exactpaycom, Brandon. Thanks again, James. Thank you as always. Bye-bye. Thank you for listening to this episode of the Payments Experts Podcast, a podcast of Global Legal Law Firm. Visit us online today at globallegallawfirmcom.