The Payments Experts Podcast
Expert payments attorneys discuss the electronic payments industry from a legal perspective.
The Payments Experts Podcast
Crypto Bros Need Payment Pros | Bitcoin Future in Payments with Derrick Hess of Zero Point | PEP045
The world of payments is rapidly evolving, yet cryptocurrency remains largely trapped in investment portfolios rather than being used for everyday transactions. Derrick Hess of Zero Point, a veteran ISO with decades in the payments industry, believes this is about to change—and payment professionals will be the catalysts.
Cryptocurrency offers two game-changing benefits that could revolutionize merchant services: substantially lower transaction costs (around 1% compared to the 2-3%+ charged by traditional payment networks) and complete elimination of chargebacks. For high-risk merchants especially, these advantages could be transformative. What's missing isn't consumer adoption—millions already hold crypto in wallets like Coinbase—but rather the payment infrastructure that connects these wallets to merchant checkouts.
Hess envisions a future where customers simply scan a QR code at checkout, select their preferred cryptocurrency, and complete transactions that instantly convert to stablecoins like USDC, eliminating volatility concerns for merchants. This technology exists, but implementing it requires payment professionals who understand both the crypto ecosystem and real-world merchant needs.
The urgency for ISOs to embrace this evolution is heightened by another industry trend: integrated software vendors (ISVs) increasingly dominating the payments landscape. As Hess notes, "If you don't have a vertical software, you're running out of time." The traditional ISO who could once sell to nearly every business on Main Street now finds their addressable market shrinking dramatically as vertical-specific software bundles payments processing.
Despite the crypto market cap reaching approximately $2.7 trillion and projections of $10 trillion within 4-5 years, traditional financial institutions remain hesitant to fully engage. This creates an opportunity for payment professionals to position themselves as bridges between Web2 and Web3, bringing cryptocurrency payment solutions to merchants eager for lower fees and chargeback protection.
Whether you're crypto-curious or crypto-skeptical, this episode offers valuable insights into how blockchain technology is poised to transform the payments industry. Connect with Derrick Hess on LinkedIn or visit zeropointus.com to continue the conversation about the future of payments.
**Matters discussed are all opinions and do not constitute legal advice. All events or likeness to real people and events is a coincidence.**
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A payments podcast of Global Legal Law Firm
cash out coinbase. Coinbase has made a fantastic on-ramp and off-ramp. Like it connects with my chase bank account, no problem, 50 grand on the an instant I mean instant on the coinbase, right away, and then I can sell. I can, you know, transfer it right back to chase banking, you know, or any major bank, because they have the. I think they use um plaid or one of those. Anyway, it's like the on-ramp, off-ramp field. Yeah, and it's, it's super. I mean, it's super quick. They have that figured out.
Speaker 2:So it's running. It's just running on the ach rails, right? Yeah, so you know, the banks are, the banks are going away, but I'm going, why haven't the banks? You know, I guess you know banks don't hold your stocks necessarily unless you're, you know, ap Morgan, which?
Speaker 3:does.
Speaker 2:But I'm surprised that they're not in the business of holding people's Bitcoin, you know, and it doesn't seem like they've even considered it.
Speaker 3:Welcome to the Payments Experts podcast, a podcast of Global Legal Law Firm. We hope you enjoy this episode. Today we're really excited in studio joining us managing partner of the firm, james Huber, as well as joining us remotely, we have Derek Hess of Zero Point Derek, welcome to the Payments Experts Podcast.
Speaker 2:Hey, thanks, appreciate you guys having me. Yeah, I'm excited. You came on the or you commented on one of our other podcasts where I was like crypto is dead. I sold all my crypto and you responded you know basically an F. You, james, not dead. I love crypto. You get on a podcast and set the record straight. But before and so we want to talk about that, but before we get into it, tell us a little bit. A little bit about yourself. What are you doing these days?
Speaker 1:work wise Well you know I'm a traditional retail ISO, like so many of so many of us out there are. That's what I've cut my teeth on and can't get away from it, but that's the basis for the future. But yeah, so we're retail ISO, retail restaurant, all the normal things you do sell, clover, that sort of deal but my main company you guys had helped me out with to do an exit on actually, and so now I have Zero Point, which was a that I have actually a patent on, trademark patent, not an actual patent, but a trademark on Zero Point. That was a fun process, and so now that's specifically what I'm doing with zero point, poised for the future, which I do believe is crypto. So, but for the meantime, what pays the bills is the retail ISO side of things.
Speaker 2:Okay, so you sold your book of business and then you're like, I'm done, I'm done. And then you got roped back in. How'd that come? How'd you, how'd you end up? You know, starting it back up or redoing it to cover your, you know, earn outs and stuff.
Speaker 1:Right, well, um, you know, this is the thing you have to have income, right? I mean you, you, I'm young, I younger, I mean we're not young anymore, but I'm young enough to where I don't have to exit the workforce. I guess we should say so. It's like, hey, for the last 20 years, what have I known as payments? Where can you go and especially with cash discount, everyone knows this If you're halfway decent at it? I mean, you can walk into your local restaurant and have a five minute conversation and make you know three grand a month. So where can you do that in any other business? I haven't found that yet, and that's actually how I got into payments was because I was looking for something that I wanted to do. This is 20, 22 years ago. I'm saying what do I want to do with my life? And I I'll give you a quick story. So I was selling yellow pages. Remember the phone book? So I was selling yellow pages for bell South, since I'm in Louisiana Selling Selling the ads Ads.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they just drop that stuff on your right, right.
Speaker 1:Well, selling the ads in the phone book, then I'd rip it. I came across that's it derrick james.
Speaker 3:James is too young to remember what yellow pages are I remember the yellow pages were.
Speaker 2:I remember randy macho man savage, ripping them in half. They're exactly. I remember that too.
Speaker 1:So I ran across a retail ISO and he was explaining to me what in the world they do because I'm trying to sell an ad. So what is your average customer worth? The whole, you know the whole sales pitch, and I'm like, wait, so I can go into a business and sell them this credit card machine and I will just get paid indefinitely on it as long as they use the service. And this was just blew me away. And I mean this is 2003, 2004. And so I thought about it and I quit my job at Yellow Pages, which was benefits and everything, and the whole nine yards first corporate job, and set out feet on the yards first corporate job and set out feet on the street to sell merchant services, not knowing anything.
Speaker 2:So the rest, I kind of I beat the statistical odds, that's for sure, because here I am still in the business, Right, right, yeah, I mean I talked about this on a couple of podcasts now of you know, is the ISO model dead? Is it going to survive? What do you think?
Speaker 1:It has to evolve. You know, everyone knows, that the ISVs are becoming payments companies. I tell this story, you know, when I got in the business and I think everyone can relate you can go up main street and sell. Eight to nine out of 10 of the businesses would actually be a potential client or use your service. And now if you walk up and down main street to maybe two out of 10 can use your, use your services.
Speaker 1:Vertical software integrations, point of sale Um, the vertical markets are really have done it. Your veterinary clinics using a veterinary software yeah, you know, a dog grooming or whatever is, is using their own software. Restaurant is still a market because if you're good enough, you can rip out their full point of sale system. But for the other industries gyms, you know they're using a gym management you get it. So isvs are becoming the payments company, right? So if you're an ISO and you don't have a vertical software to offer, our time is ticking. Yeah, yeah, that's my thought on what the future is. So take that as as as it, and that's one of the reasons why I did a somewhat of an exit of the industry was to I'm hedging my bets, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it's like you know. Too bad, you didn't stick with the yellow pages, right yeah?
Speaker 1:So, hey, hey, I definitely got off that ship. They tried online advertising. It just never they were a day late and a dollar short. Never they were a day late and a dollar short. Yeah, see, there, that's a good one, because they had the money imported into online and advertising, et cetera. They just, they just were too big, too slow to make a transition. And I feel like the ISO world is in that same market. I mean, you have first data and thesis, unlimited resources, right, what are they doing? What are they doing? They thesis can't even come up with a point of sale. Clover had to, I mean sale, clover had to. I mean first date had to buy clover, right, you know they, for you know the service is fantastic with clover, you know so, um, yeah, so, so what's the next? What's the future here? That's the future. If you don't have a vertical software, you're running out of time, and the next frontier is definitely crypto into payments.
Speaker 2:Why is that? So I brought it up. The other day I heard it on uh the radio on npr, of somebody going. Crypto's been around longer than uber, longer than whatsapp.
Speaker 1:Nobody's using it, so it's, yeah, because you know it's. It's historically something for the. You know the crypto bros, or the degens as they call it. You know the gamblers out there, right? Um, but where else could you buy an asset crypto asset that fluctuates in value generally historically to the positive, like Bitcoin, for example? We'll just use Bitcoin, because everyone knows Bitcoin.
Speaker 1:Bitcoin has outperformed every single S&P. It's outperformed gold since its inception by thousands of percent and year over year, I think it's still well over 100% gains, even though it is volatile as heck, right. So? And Bitcoin is a slow mover, you know I have assets in my portfolio that will make you sick. You open it up and you're down 60%, and then you close it and two days later you're up 60%. So it's wild, right, but you have to have-, miserable, right. And so what I'm saying is it's historically been used for the younger generation that wants to gamble, but big institutions are getting involved. Bitcoin, with Michael Saylor, who owns Micro Strategies. He's on the S&P 100 or the NASDAQ 100, whatever the one is. If you buy into that index, you are buying Bitcoin, whether you want to or not. That's bringing mainstream in.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, blackrock got their ETF right, right, yeah, but I'm going. When are people going to use it, or is the use just I'm going to gamble and give myself a heart attack and make myself miserable as I sell at the wrong time?
Speaker 1:Well, it's used. It's used on, I would say, the back end channels, the channels that we in the mainstream don't use, like if you're on the crypto Twitter aspect or X people use. Use it for everything. I mean, you want to buy a high-end watch in Miami? You can use crypto. The problem is there's not an easy access for merchants to use it. People want to use it. I mean, I don't know if you remember we'll give an example let's say, apple Pay with the tap of the credit card, right? Yeah, how long did it take for you to actually use that service? Machines were there, people were there, but it took me. I'm going to be honest. It took me a long time to realize. Wait, I can just tap my card. I thought it was dumb, but you can just tap it and now it's the norm. 's the norm now? And if people are like, if I don't have apple pay, I can't use, you know, the young, the young folks, the girls and stuff that don't wear purses, they just have a phone around their neck, that's everything, right?
Speaker 2:yeah. So yeah, I saw the airport, like a couple airports are saying you can use a digital id. Now you see that you put your ip. It's like, yeah, you just have your phone, don't lose your phone, right that's yeah but uh, yeah, no.
Speaker 2:So you think you think there will? Do you think there will be any meaningful adoption across the board? I mean I don't think you're going to get most people who are over 50 right now ever want to use it, but they're all gonna die. I mean we're all gonna die but they're not gonna die apparently for a long, long time now. I mean they're saying, if you can live another 30 years, you're gonna live another 50 that's true.
Speaker 1:Um, I can tell you there are things that's happening like. Coinbase is a very large company you know, out in your guys on the West coast. Um, they're doing things to bring in normal people, Like my mom, for instance. Okay, she downloaded the Coinbase app and it's like learn about crypto and you get $5 of this token or whatever you know, and she's tell me I have $70 just from taking learning what crypto is. So there's big companies that are looking to bring in normal I mean, she's 60, something you know like bring in normal people.
Speaker 1:But, to answer your question specifically, it's not adopted because merchants do not have a way to accept it. And onboarding crypto for you, if you wanted to say, if we just walked on somebody across the street and said, hey, buy Bitcoin, they're like I don't know how to do that. Hey, buy Bitcoin. They're like I don't know how to do that. That's been the hard part. So that's why you have these crypto wallets that are taken, and then there's a million different wallets. So I think the future is going to be a single point of payment, meaning scan this QR code or tap your phone, and it's going to work with every wallet, whatever it is. It's going to instantly convert it. Merchants is going to convert it to USDC, right, so they have a stable coin instantly at the point of transaction. I think you guys are talking about stable coins and something.
Speaker 1:Last podcast, that's what had me interested. Switch it instantly to USDC. Hit a merchant's bank account, they're happy. No volatility, right, yeah, and cheaper than the payments network. So Visa and MasterCard, as we know, man, look, every April and October come up with modifications. It's never a reduction in cost, it's modifications of max extraction, right, Right, Right. So that's that's where I am A bit of a rant. Sorry about that. No, it's good.
Speaker 2:It's interesting because you're sharing a view that I've. Just I hear less and less and less because I was. I was all into crypto. Jeremy and I were going nuts, we're going. My wife started a metaverse company. We're going. You know, let's go help people buy this real estate. Because I, when that was all going nuts, I tried to do it and I was like I can't figure this out. And okay, I figured out how to do. It was like how do I know this is good real estate, and so I couldn't do it. And there was people and we called a company that was doing this and they go wait, we can't even keep up with our demand, like we're constantly hiring virtual brokers, and and it was going nuts. But then all of a sudden we're. I mean I haven't even heard somebody say metaverse. I mean, you say metaverse?
Speaker 1:fell off, so did NFTs, you know digital art.
Speaker 3:Gone gone. No one talks about it.
Speaker 1:Now I will say there's still some NFTs that are awesome, like Bored Ape Yacht Club. I mean, those guys are still selling minimum $26,000 for a picture of an ape. Up to a million dollars. $26,000 for a picture of an ape up to you know, a million dollars. Um, one just came out the other day. This is ridiculous. It's a wizard like this neon wizard. It's $32,000. And I'm saying I need that. If you had an extra $32,000, you're going to buy a JPEG picture of a neon wizard that's like a five-year-old drew.
Speaker 2:I didn't understand the art aspect of it but I did from a technology standpoint. I was going all in on NFTs of, you know, my world assets. The deed to my house should be an NFT. You know your intellectual property should be embedded in that. All of these things. It's interesting because that just kind of I don't I it at all, it's not done.
Speaker 1:The real world asset part in fractional ownership is something that is definitely part of their say. Like you, us three guys we wanted to get together and buy a Van Gogh painting, or we can't afford a Van Gogh, so what we'll do is we'll own one 60th or whatever of that Van Gogh. The NFT is our you know token that we own a piece of it. It's embedded in a blockchain. No one can, you know, refute that. And as that piece of art increases in value, so does our holding. So that's the cool part of of the blockchain and real world assets it's locked in public record. Anyone can research it. Now it's anonymous, unless you say like, hey, this contract address is what I own and you can prove it, but for the most part it's still anonymous.
Speaker 2:It's still anonymous. Okay, are people still using that? Is that a real thing?
Speaker 1:People are using NFTs to record their ownership and things. I haven't. I haven't. All of that is theoretical. I haven't seen any real world applications of it, but they, they, it does exist Right now. The NFTs is more of the novelty, I think, of art to help, digital art, that is, to help people understand the concept of it. Yeah, you know, uh, us normal guys, that's the crazy part. Just they call it web three. Have you heard the term web three?
Speaker 3:they've been talking about web three for five years at least right.
Speaker 1:So that's what web3 is everything crypto, everything decentralized, no chase bank, you know, uh, where it's private, every, everything on chain, as they call on chain, is viewable in every way. Now, there's good and bad. I don't want to get into what's if it. You know the privacy aspect of it, but, um, it's kind of cool because we can see, like, how much bitcoin, how much the government owns of different assets, where, if you ask the government, how much gold do you have in fort knox, you know they'll never tell you.
Speaker 2:They'll never tell you yeah yeah, they get rid of it all. I think so. That's the rumor. Jeremy one time sent his money to the wrong place. He went and found it on the blockchain. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Wow.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Derek, that was. It was wild. Literally. I think it took me 14 hours of frantic. You know I learned a lot about crypto in that 14 hours.
Speaker 2:I learned a lot about crypto in that 14 hours and it was amazing yeah exactly, but I did, I found it.
Speaker 3:I found it and I was able to retrieve it, which was pretty amazing to me. So you're right, it is, it's there, it's real and in that level it is safe. It's a real contract and I was able to track it down. But again, who has 14 hours if something like that happens? Right?
Speaker 2:jeremy does. It's not like he has a job well, hey, if you drop after this.
Speaker 3:I did it on company time on the ground and you know someone picked it up.
Speaker 2:Good luck, right, right right yeah, yeah, no, I, I mean I, I was all for it. I just I I'm still going. I just don't see people using it mainstream and it's not going to be like the, you know, the kids with their phones where they don't even bring their wallet. And if you don't take Apple Pay, I'm not going there, because everywhere does, for the most part now, everywhere I go.
Speaker 1:So you know, this is the thing. You have Venmo, paypal, cash App, all these apps that pretty much everyone under 30 has on their phone already. The ramp is there for crypto so you can buy crypto with all of those, all of those different wallets. What's missing is payment devices. Going to Starbucks or your local place that's running a Clover system or a Shift4 system or whatever it is that has that option, scan the QR code so, like on the receipts we have on Clover and Shift4 and all these other ones, scan your QR code, receipt and pay right then, and there you don't have to wait for your server, you don't have to wait for your server. So if you could scan that QR code and it brings up a like, a link, you're like OK, how do you want to pay your Visa, mastercard or, you know, ethereum, solana, bitcoin, whatever it is? You hit it, boom, you're in. It interacts with your wallet. That's the future is whatever is on your phone, whatever wallet you choose to use, is going to be accepted. That's that's. That's watch. That's the future, in my opinion.
Speaker 1:And there has to be a bridge between web 2, which is what we live in, like real world, and web 3, which is the future, the bridge is gonna have to be mass adoption and Web3, these crypto bros don't understand real world. So it's going to take the payments industry and this is where I think it is. It's going to take the payments industry, us ISOs and agents and all of that, just like we did in the 50s and 60s. That's why people, you know the banks hired whatever. So it's going to take us to bring that to market and that's that's I think the future of ISOs and agents is bringing a future.
Speaker 1:We're really good at that. We're really good at, you know, convincing merchants to use a cash discount, which was the biggest like what do you call it? Psych op in the world, where we convinced them to to raise their prices so we could make more money. That was epic right. But this, I think, will be reversed because crypto, we're going to lower the merchant's prices. Honestly, we really will, because wholesale costs are in the one percentage range instead of two, three plus, and still make the same margin. That's my optimistic macro view of crypto.
Speaker 2:And another way to do it, I would think and not the sales guy but is if you're going to the customer and you're going like you said at the beginning, everybody's doing surcharge and cash discounting. If you go to the customer, hey, it's actually cheaper if you use crypto, no one's going to use cash to take advantage of the cash discount because we all want our rewards points and all that. But if you're going, hey, it's going to cost you $6 for this purchase, $100 purchase or $1. You know, six bucks for this purchase, hundred dollar purchase or one right. Then you're going oh, I almost I'm going to use my crypto, because even coinbase even has a rewards card, so they do no chargebacks too well.
Speaker 1:Crypto's reward. Uh, coinbase is still using the payment networks, unfortunately. Right, because?
Speaker 2:I got one. It had a little Visa logo on it, right. Me and my motley crew of friends ready to get rid of the banks and everything. I was like, darn, our mission failed. It sold out.
Speaker 1:But no chargebacks too. So hey look, you know, for a high, high risk. I think this is going to be something for high risk as well, since you can convert it to USDC, as long as it's not federally illegal, right? Um, you can. You can transfer it over to USDC and there's no charge back. So you want to buy a mattress online um, you know, or something wild that there's a ton of charge backs as the merchant.
Speaker 3:Yeah, is is reading between the line lines here guys, something along the lines of visa and master card haven't figured out to get their piece of the pie yet, and so and they don't want a disruptor, so that's why it hasn't been mass adopted. Is there any truth to that?
Speaker 2:I don't think so. I think if, because visa has said outright that you know visa and wells fargo they're going we're not worried about crypto, and you know, the one thing that I've said before is if crypto captured three percent of the market, it would be an unparalleled success. Success, it would be amazing. Now to your point, though. In 1955, less than 1% of the world had a credit card, way less 1960, probably still less than 1%. I think maybe it started getting closer to that. But now every single person in the world not in the world, every person, most people in the United States have at least a card. Yes, so you know it's possible. But my thing is you know you can't really get rid of the banks and you can't get rid of Visa and MasterCard, because how do I get my money into crypto unless I'm paying Jeremy in crypto? I think you actually asked me to do that one time. You're like can you pay my wages in Bitcoin? He's like this is how I'm committed.
Speaker 3:That's how committed. It's true, derek. We did have that conversation and thank God, james talked me out of it.
Speaker 1:You said you've been with him for you know, half a decade here. If you would have been paid in Bitcoin five years ago, dude, I think you'd be all right.
Speaker 2:I would have sold it at the point dip each time.
Speaker 3:Pinned it at the bottom, but no, I think banks don't play a part.
Speaker 1:You know visa, mastercard, they. They don't, they're not afraid yet. But right now the market cap of crypto is like three, 2.7 trillion, I believe, dollars. That's not, that's your, your world. You know the full market cap, but they think it's going to hit 10 trillion in you know four or five years. So that's a three X. So I believe it's going to. I believe that's going to be the case for sure.
Speaker 2:I'm surprised the banks haven't gotten in the game a little bit, because the big players are Coinbase and Binance. I don't even know if anyone uses Binance anymore because I think you kind of In the UK.
Speaker 3:It's still big in the uk. It's still big in the asian country overseas.
Speaker 2:Well, here, because basically they're shut down here, I have trouble getting my money out, even uh, not that much trouble. But you couldn't just trade it for cash anymore, right, you had to send it somewhere else to cash out coinbase coinbase has made a fantastic on-ramp and off-ramp.
Speaker 1:Like it connects with my Chase bank account, no problem. I can load 50 grand on an instant I mean instant on the Coinbase, yeah, right away and then I can sell it. I can transfer it right back to Chase Bank or any major bank because they have the I think they use Plaid or one of those. Anyway, it's like the on-ramp, off-ramp deal, yeah, and it's. It's super. I mean it's super quick.
Speaker 2:They have that figured out, so. But it's running. It's just running on the ach rails, right? Yeah, so you know the banks are, the banks are going away, but I'm going, why haven't the banks? You know? I guess you know banks don't hold your stocks, necessarily, unless you're JP Morgan, which does. But I'm surprised that they're not in the business of holding people's Bitcoin and it doesn't seem like they've even considered it.
Speaker 1:No, I went to my JP Morgan rep, chase rep, financial advisor guy and he's a young guy, under 30. And no, they are not. He doesn't want to hear about anything. Digital assets, they don't. They are drinking the Kool-Aid 100 percent. But I'm saying like, ok, but what are you doing? No, that's their stance at the moment. But if you're going to be buying these ETFs and that's in Chase, right, you know so.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and to your point yeah, if it's, they're publicly traded. So yeah, everybody you know who has a diversified portfolio has some of those index funds. So yeah, you're already in.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, that's the. That's the magic with BlackRock and all these ETFs that are coming about. Hey, if it wasn't something that was going to be the future, why would any of these huge BlackRock? Kathy Wood with her ARK investments she's really big. You know all these crazy future people that are investing in Tesla Bitcoin, you know why I'm just thinking they just don't want to miss out.
Speaker 2:They're missing out. There was a ton of money going into it, especially, you know, starting in the beginning of the pandemic. You know that's when the things really went nuts and they're going well. We're missing out. You know we need a piece of that. Actually I'm not going to let you guys do that over there. So so well, it's interesting, you've convinced me. I'm going to go cash back in.
Speaker 1:You don't know what you started. Derek, if you want to seriously send me a text, I'll give you my top 10, you know, not financial advice, right, but that I really feel I'm. You know, as they say, I'm really bullish on. I really feel like you know, as they say, I'm really bullish on. I really feel like you know there's there.
Speaker 2:So yeah, I had those two and I finally or no, it was we were trying to buy a house and the amount that I needed was like the exact amount that I had in in crypto assets, and I was, like it's a sign, just cash out, and so did, and my life has been so much more peaceful.
Speaker 3:Derek, for a while I'm not joking James would come in pretty much every day, and not to mention texts at night, but saying hey, did you see what happened to Solana? Did you buy in on this one? And these are half of them. I hadn't even heard of buying everything.
Speaker 2:Most of them went to zero Yep, no, this is buying everything.
Speaker 1:Most of them went to zero yep, no, yeah yeah, yeah, well, you know, easy, hey, at least it was slower than a like a roulette wheel where you can it's just zero or or double or zero. At least you have infinite, you know, but all good guys, yeah all right.
Speaker 2:Well, thanks for coming on. You got any closing thoughts for us? How can people get in touch with you for your financial advice? Just kidding.
Speaker 1:Yeah, not financial advice. Hey, I'm on LinkedIn. You know Derek Hess on LinkedIn. Zero point us dot com is our is. You know, is our ISO. We still run, you know, small ISO shop, Nothing too crazy. But you know I'm always open for these kind of discussions if you just want to shoot the breeze.
Speaker 2:All right, great, this has been great. Thanks for coming.
Speaker 3:Thanks so much, Derek.
Speaker 1:You take care.
Speaker 3:And thank you for listening to the Payments Experts Podcast, a podcast of Global Legal Law Firm. We'll see you on the next one, bye, bye. Thank you for listening to this episode of the Payments Experts Podcast, a podcast of Global Legal Law Firm. Visit us online today at globallegallawfirmcom.