The Payments Experts Podcast
Expert payments attorneys discuss the electronic payments industry from a legal perspective.
The Payments Experts Podcast
Inside Payments Since 2003: Digital Transactions Sr Editor Kevin Woodward Discusses Industry Now | PEP072
Risk keeps moving even when the rules look settled. We sat down with Kevin Woodward, senior editor at Digital Transactions (https://www.digitaltransactions.net/), to trace where the real pressure is building in payments: Visa’s VAMP and its oversight shift, tokenization that works until it doesn’t, and AI that can help teams underwrite faster without surrendering judgment. The conversation starts with a hard truth—most portfolio fires begin with poor or selective underwriting—and follows that thread into how VAMP could push acquirers toward cleaner books by making constant onboard-offboard cycles a red flag, not business as usual.
Then we get practical. Tokenization has reduced fraud and enabled seamless recurring billing, but when a high-risk merchant is terminated, those vaulted credentials often become immovable. Without a secure and standardized path to token migration, legitimate businesses face revenue cliffs and consumers face needless friction. We explore why that gap exists, how incentives lock data in, and what a fair migration framework could look like for processors, merchants, and cardholders.
Finally, we dig into AI’s real uses: accelerating document checks, classifying business models, scanning web footprints, and predicting attrition so portfolios don’t bleed out quietly. It’s not about replacing experts; it’s about turning noise into signal so risk teams can act early. Along the way, we talk fines versus fairness, communication gaps in new program rollouts, and the small credibility details—like clear, compliant content—that still matter to regulators and partners.
If you care about underwriting discipline, token portability, and AI that actually reduces risk, this one’s for you. Follow and subscribe for more conversations at the edge of payments, and drop a review to tell us where you’re seeing the most friction today.
**Matters discussed are all opinions and do not constitute legal advice. All events or likeness to real people and events is a coincidence.**
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A payments podcast of Global Legal Law Firm
Anytime I get a uh um some sort of default, whether it's from a financing uh obligation or it's from merchant processing, which has either led to fines or some sort of merchant loss, all of it's poor underwriting, in my opinion, or selective underwriting looking at dollars versus potential loss. And I I see that as again, when I had this conversation with this other person about Vamp, I almost thought maybe it was pushing down risk of loss and then oversight and heightening the oversight uh obligations of other market players below the card brands and the acquirer or the bank to say, look, you guys need to do a better job. And if you don't, then there's gonna be problems. We're gonna make you responsible because ultimately, look, a merchant goes out of business, the ISO, the agent, you know, whoever else below, they're responsible, right? I mean, if the bank's not taking us any risk of loss, Pizza and MasterCard aren't taking any risk of loss, so who knows?
SPEAKER_01:Welcome to the Payments Experts Podcast, a podcast of Global Legal Law Firm. We hope you enjoyed this episode. We're really excited today. We've got you joining us in studio, founding and managing partner of Global Legal Law Firm, Christopher Driven, as well as our special guest with Kevin Woodwards, who's the senior uh editor over at Digital Transactions. You can find Kevin at digitransactions.net. Digital Transactions has been in the industry a long, long time. Kevin, we're really excited to have you on this podcast. Welcome.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, thanks for coming on, Kev.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I appreciate it. It's uh great to have a visibility and and to talk a little bit about uh what's going on in the industry from our perspective.
SPEAKER_02:Well, I mean, that's the thing. You know, your perspective is really why we're it's thank you for being on because I, you know, I will tell you, when I was becoming an attorney in this space, this is one of the industry mags I read to like kind of educate myself on what was going on. I mean, my our first client was a particular type of ISO with a particular type of acquisition model, you know, kind of loss leader, heavy leasing, which wasn't really payments, you know. I mean, payments is a much, much broader topic. And throughout the years, digital transactions, awesome publication. You know, I mean, you guys, even today putting out content that is entirely relevant all the time, kind of on the front end of things. It's funny, we'll do a podcast on something, and then you know, I'll see an article like almost come out the the day we haven't even published a podcast, but something came out for digital transactions. So you guys are like you're super relevant, and it's nice to have you on because as we were talking beforehand, you know, we see a lot of dumpster fires, and so a lot of times those get anchored around something that's a subject matter that is relevant, but you know, we kind of sit in a very uh almost like sequestered space. And when you're out and about and you're finding content to write about, you know, you're on the front end of things, and which is great because things that are you know kind of getting traction in our industry. Look, our industry it's a little bit like the Titanic, you know, it takes a little while to to turn the ship here and there, but like, you know, so you know, I I do believe that we sit on some subject matter for a while, but that's because we're dealing with large corporations before and banks before things really start to move. But you know, we really appreciate you having you on. And and uh I think what would be great for our view or our listenership, I always say viewership, our listenership is um tell us about digital transactions. And I mean, senior editor, you've been there a long time. Tell us, you know, exactly kind of its genesis and what you do, what you focus on.
SPEAKER_00:Uh that's great. I appreciate being here. Uh digital transactions got a start, I believe, in about 2003, 2004, about 10 years before I joined the magazine, uh, by two veterans. I'm sure a lot of people know Bob Jenish, our publisher, uh lead uh ad sales guy, and John Stewart, our editor-in-chief. Um I came on, like I said, about 10 years ago. And, you know, one thing that they told me about is that, you know, our coverage is consumer-facing electronic payments in North America. So there's a big gamut there. That's a lot to cover. Um and we break it down. We typically think of our three audience segments as the banking industry, acquirers, and merchants. So whenever we write something, that's who we're writing for. And my our goal, my goal is to answer the question: how does this help our reader make money? Whatever it is we're writing about, if it's AI, which is all over the place today, or if it's like back in the days, the free terminals. You know, how does that help our reader make money? Um, I I've been covering this space, so I've been here about I think 13, so almost coming up on 12 years uh with digital transactions. But prior to that, I worked with a publication called ISO and Agent.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:It was a newsletter that came out once a week. Oh, yeah. It was published by the company that owns the American banker. And I got see, I started on that in 2006, not knowing anything about the acquiring industry. So I'm like, I didn't even know it was. Yeah, I didn't even know it existed. I didn't know what it was purposed. How did it work? What do you mean, cards? How does it you know, and as a consumer, I never gave any thought on how a merchant gets a terminal on the countertop. I never gave any thought about how an e-commerce transaction would be processed and who would who that would flow through. Um, and I remember just getting thrown into it and it's like, okay, you gotta go to this show and talk to all these people. And it's like, okay, let's see what's going on. Well, I think that's still the case.
SPEAKER_02:I think that's still the case, right? I mean, I I I've I do training for the attorneys and the support staff here on payments because you know, we have great attorneys, but what makes us different is the subject matter, and so you know, and I tell them, look, it's a six to 12 month learning curve, even getting continuous training from us. There's a lot of information, we've just acquired it over the years. But the I've actually changed the way that I do the training. I used to do it top down, and I would start with Visa, Master the Card brands, and then kind of like draw out the architecture of the ecosystem, right? I do it now top up, I mean uh bottom up, because everybody participates in the ecosystem, they just don't realize that they're participating in it and how, and so I've actually started to talk uh like when I start the training about cards, and like I take cards out of my wallet and I'll start to show them cards, and I start to talk about, you know, I I actually started issuing now so that I could really give people an idea of how their participation in this system, like they understand one side because they're engaged in it as a consumer, but they don't see the other side, they just take it for granted, like you were just saying.
SPEAKER_00:Right. I think it's fascinating because before then I was on a smart card magazine, which was international in focus, you know, and that was exciting, and that was at a time when the industry we thought uh in the early 2000s that the US was gonna convert the chip, and it only took 10 more years for the liability ship to actually be uh have a date attached to it. Um but it went through. You know, it's kind of you know, it was heavy days for the acquiring industry back in the mid-2000s and in that period that I was really very intimate with it. And um there's a lot of stuff going on. It you know, it I always like to think that uh maybe things are a little quiet in payments now, it's kind of a lull. There's really not a lot of new things coming around. But it's you know, it's I hate to be cliche because as a writer, I hate cliches, but it's like the weather. Just wait.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, wait 10 minutes.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, something will come along.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I see the same thing, right? I like just when I feel like I've got it, oh, it's gone. And the reason is is and I I attribute it to technology more than anything else, right? Like, I'm not a tech, like I'm not on social media, I don't have the latest device. If I showed you my phone, you'd laugh. And and to be honest, I I I don't have enough time necessarily, and I'm not engaged. Uh, you know, there's other I have other hobbies. So when it comes to tech, what I know about tech has really been driven by what I'm required to know within my job. And I think that's been the real driver of change. Do you see that or do you see something else like other market forces that are taking place as well?
SPEAKER_00:Well, that's definitely a big part of it. I remember um when I was in grad school, I had a seminar on the whole myth and technology, how those are the two big drivers within a society. Um so it's interesting you bring up the technology, uh, because that can be a big driver. But I also think the myth, which is more the ideas, the concepts that flow through a society, I think that's also another big factor. If we will look at the younger generation, maybe two or three generations past me now, younger than me now, but uh you know how they're coming up with. I have a seven-year-old uh grandnephew who's completely attuned to everything digital. He's not gonna know what it would mean to uh bring a card through a knuckle buster. It's all he's gonna be constantly on a when he becomes of age and starts paying for things on his own, it's gonna be all digital. Maybe he'll have a card that'll sat away because that's the secure, everything is tethered to the pan and all that information. Um, but it's all gonna be digital for him. So there, you know, there's the concept of it, you know, he's he's used to this idea already of using technology, but also technology is a driver. Like, you know, you we I mentioned the EMV transition here in the States, and tokenization was a big part of that. That had to happen. And that had to happen for Apple Pay and the mobile wallets to come along as well. Um now look at tokenization, it's everywhere. Cars are getting tokenized as a payment device in some instances, um, you know, watches, everything. Uh and it's just fascinating.
SPEAKER_02:You know what's interesting though is I agree with you. The technology is there, the willingness of the of the parties that are employing that technology. Like, here's here's a a problem that I recently saw, and maybe this is a good like segue into uh our like our discussion because we were going to talk about VAMP. I do think that that's something that we I'd love to get your perspective on. But I'm seeing with Vamp, if there is um you know the acting of a merchant for whatever risk reason, if they've been working with a processor and they've been employing tokenization with their customers for recurring billing, there's like a total drop-off for servicing related to that tokenization to migrate them to a new provider that'll take on the risk of the merchant. And the crazy part is is I understand that the the processor is is is creating and storing the tokens, but there should be some sort of lever that allows for the migration of those tokens to keep business going. And I feel like they do certain things really well, but then when it comes time to actually take the collateral that they've built for a customer that they don't want to do business with anymore, and then allow ease for the customer, even if they're getting paid, there's like all this resistance associated with it. And so, like, I see technology being employed, but not it's I maybe not transferable, like and so this just recently happened with a merchant that I believe was terminated in VAMP, but due to VAMP, because their risk, like their risk profile went was different after you know, VAMP was put into place, and it'll increasingly be different, and so the processor didn't want to deal with them any longer, however, they their entire business is recurring billings, and so they can't get any migration of the tokens. Imagine if you've got thousands of tokens that you're relying on to be able to continue to get your revenue, and you've got an unwilling partner based on market forces. I I don't know. What do you what are your and I think it's due to VAMP, not not necessarily the unwillingness or resistance to deal with data migration, but to to the the fact that they were cut off, I think was a product of VAMP. That hasn't been said to us. I just kind of see one one leading to the other.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:What's your thoughts on Vamp? Like what it's gonna do to the marketplace.
SPEAKER_00:Well, you know, that's a topic that I just recently uh jumped into. That's gonna have a uh huge impact. I mean, there's no way that it can't. Um Visa just published a video where they're talking about it, and of course they, you know, it's from Visa's viewpoint. Um but one of the components they were talking about was this whole enumeration aspect. Um which I think could be interesting because there's people go to test cards online, you know, especially if like say in this case of this merchant where they have a lot of tokens. Um I don't know, it could be interesting. You know, I will frankly will tell you that I'm probably not a huge expert on Vamp at this point. Um But I I see it, you know, it's interesting because it it draws in the acquirer, I think, more directly than the previous what they had like five or six programs before Pisa did. Um, I think uh it makes this is you know much more of a discreet acquirer tie in into this new program. Yeah, I I think we're still in the early stages for it, uh Chris, and it's just very um unknown because what it went into effect October 1, correct?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah. And then that's the thing. We we don't know. I mean, it's gonna take six months until we really see like you know, through a couple quarters of what's gonna happen. I just you know, I I've gotten some perspectives from different people on it. Um one of the things as I, you know, I listen to people talk about it and it just kind of jogs things in my head. I almost feel like, you know, kind of like EMV with a liability shift, I almost think this is like an oversight shift, right? I mean, as you're saying, it's drawing in the acquire. I kind of felt like it was this uh this idea that now there needs to be more robust monitoring about who is underwritten and brought into the ecosystem because there's going to be it's it can't be looked good, at least optically, for somebody in the marketplace to be consistently onboarding and offboarding merchants because they don't hit thresholds. I mean, I I would imagine that's gonna shine a spotlight that wouldn't necessarily be favorable to anybody who is downstream from Visa or a member bank or or you know, whoever it would be. And I think that that's kind of pushing this oversight, not not necessarily operation choke point, but it's holding, it's the market holding some of the gatekeepers more responsible for who they're allowing to come in and transact. And that's kind of a perspective that I saw based on a conversation that I had with one person.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, that is very interesting because it reminds me of the early days when people were trying to onboard CBD merchants and others who were maybe you know high risk, but maybe a new kind of high risk. And then they would find merchants who were adding on products wouldn't tell the acquirer. They're now selling much higher risk products than they initially said they would. So I wonder if, you know, that's part of the issue here too, that the card brand is trying to go after is to bring in, you know, like you said, more oversight and you know, maybe eventually it will actually help the acquirer maintain a cleaner portfolio. Um, I I kind of think that that's part of the goal is you know, a cleaner portfolio, one with less risk, one that maybe isn't subject to as much attrition because of um you know risky actions taken by the merchant or what or whoever maybe uh have the uh uh the merchant account. Um I don't know. I know it's just such early days in it.
SPEAKER_01:Can I ask a question, Chris? Yeah, go, yeah, yeah. What I'm hearing you say is it sounds like maybe there's a net good in there potentially, but my sense is it it's gonna be kind of messy till we get there.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, you know, I've beaten up on the card brands, I've beaten up on Visa specifically and their vi and their fine regimes. And I think the fine regimes don't the the fines themselves, the amount, don't always make sense to the violations, and there's kind of a grave impact, and it's one size fits all for every merchant, and not every merchant's the same. And I feel like the way that there the enforcement is taking place has been in a way that I it makes me believe that part of the motivation is profit-driven. But then when I see something like Vamp come out, now I'm looking at the fine regime going, well, maybe it's just trying to push forward to better commerce, you know, better, more compliant commerce within an ecosystem that overall reduces the amount of risk associated with it, period. Right? I mean, Visa's got a brand, it wants to protect the brand. I get it. But you know, if I look at the five the fine regime in uh in a silo, it doesn't look very fair. When I see it coupled with VAMP, maybe I see a little bit bigger perspective that Visa has related to some of the enforcement that leads to the fines. Uh I don't know. Have you gotten into any of that? Where I mean, we get so many calls from so many different people that operate related to uh dual pricing violations. And do and that's been such a hot button for us. Have you guys have you touched on that at all?
SPEAKER_00:Uh we write about it from like a product standpoint, because uh as you may know, we not a lot of people will want to call us and say they're getting penalized for something. Um and so we don't offer like the penalties that you mentioned, we don't typically hear about those or know how much they are or anything unless we talk to people, you know, at conferences such as yourself or or others. Um You know, I think it is interesting, you know, maybe there is a driver here for making a more efficient and driving down the fraud and commerce overall. And you know, the question I have too, I was just trying to find out, is VAMP US only at this time?
SPEAKER_02:I don't know, but I think so. I that that would be my thought is that this is geared towards our ecosystem here in North America. I don't know about US, but I think North America, like the North America region, whatever that covers. Um, but I think that if you were to look at each either region or you were to look at the United States against other countries, the amount of e-commerce that we have going on is just insane, right? I mean, like it's gotta dwarf everything. So I I I believe as things have moved online, we've they're looking to find a way to stop some or plug some of the holes, maybe, as to how people are abusing the system and you know, blasting things through. Um, and I think a you know, I always say this anytime I get a uh um some sort of default, whether it's from a financing you know, obligation or it's from merchant processing, which has either led to fines or some sort of merchant loss, all of it's poor underwriting, in my opinion, or selective underwriting, looking at dollars versus potential loss. And I I see that as again, when I had this conversation with this other person about Vamp, I almost thought maybe it was pushing down risk of loss and then oversight and heightening the oversight uh obligations of other market players below the card brands and the acquirer or the bank to say, look, you guys need to do a better job. And if you don't, then there's gonna be problems. We're gonna make you responsible because ultimately, look, a merchant goes out of business, the ISO, the agent, you know, whoever else below, they're responsible, right? I mean, if the bank's not taking us any risk of loss, Pisa and MasterCard aren't taking any risk of loss, so who knows?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, it's interesting. I find it interesting that Chris, you're in this industry, you've been doing this for almost 20 years now. Kevin, you've been writing about this industry for, you know, you mentioned uh almost two decades going on. To me, it speaks a lot about how Visa communicates or rather doesn't communicate well because of the fact that there's so many questions, right? It's already been implemented. We're we have two experts on this podcast right now, and there's still so many open questions.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, but I but again, I don't know if the lack of clarity is not that they haven't communicated, it's that when you you do something. I mean, look, this is a huge, huge marketplace. When you make a shift, the amount of unintended consequences that they couldn't foresee, who knows, right? I mean, like uh maybe all of this stuff is are just things that they really didn't contemplate because they're not at the level. I mean, again, they're here, they have one perspective, they're not necessarily going to see all the perspectives of the people down here. So I uh some of these things where there aren't concrete answers, I think there just needs to be a process to get concrete answers, which that's what's lacking, in my opinion. I don't know. Like, how much interaction do you guys have with the card brands as media? And and you know, as and as far as maybe when something like this does come out to be able to get at least a one-on-one to for further information and clarity where it may not be clear on its face to you.
SPEAKER_00:Well, it depends because each company in the payment system has their own strategies for dealing with media. Uh as you might imagine, there are companies when they think it's in their best interest, but there's a willingness. Um, you know, and Visa's been pretty good about my inquiries of it of of late, of sharing some information. Um, but the the other thing too is I'm an observer. I'm not, I don't know what it's like to have to implement or to monitor merchants with this pro with VAMP. Um, you know, that's not what I do day to day. Um, like you were talking about, there's different levels of interaction and how this is going to well, any rule change or any policy change will affect those who actually have to implement it. You know, I just I don't have the, you know, I'm an observer. Um, that makes sense.
SPEAKER_02:Because I am too. I am too, right?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I mean yeah, we're both kind of on the outside of it.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I've always said this when I go to the industry shows, it's like the biggest horror fest around. It's sales guys selling the sales guys, and and and we're like, there's a few of us that just sit on the outskirts and just sort of watch the whole thing happen. Yeah, you know, because we're really not super engaged in the day-to-day, and we're we're looking at things from a much bigger context than an individual sale. Um yeah, but let me let me transition because there I really do want to pick your brain on um AI. Because look, I uh look, I was at breakfast this morning with my family. We do five we do Friday morning breakfast, and one of my kids said, Well, isn't like AI just gonna basically take over the world? And I said, Well, look, I think AI is like any, at least at its inception, it is uh like any software system, it's garbage in, garbage out. It's not gonna do it for you. You have to teach it, and what you teach it has to be specific. And I said, Will it um will it replace certain aspects of humanity in the workplace? Yes. But the lady that's serving us food right now, it can't replace her. And there's a lot of things that it just can't replace. Your plumber, it's not gonna replace him, right? I mean, there's so so you have to look and see what AI really is and how it applies to whatever it is that you're doing, whether it's school, work, I don't care. I said they've tried to apply this in the legal world, and like recently there was an appellate decision that came down in California. An attorney had used AI, which included fake cases that were just and then they find the appellate attorney 10 grand, and then they find the opposing counsel because they didn't catch it either in their opposition brief. So I thought that was really interesting, and we've seen this sort of stuff. Like, I guess they call it hallucinations within the AI, where it just sort of like creates stuff that's non-existent. But because I don't do what you do and I'm not observing on the front end, I'm kind of observing when the problems arise. So I'm not seeing some of the problems necessarily. What are you seeing in the marketplace where AI is being not just used, but used well?
SPEAKER_00:Well, I think uh there are a number of companies that are looking at AI for merchant onboarding and evaluation. I think that's an opportunity to really expedite the process. But like you said, it's you still have to someone have to have someone in charge of that program to decide, okay, what's what's a valid level of risk, what's acceptable, you know, or and how do we, you know, what criteria is put into the AI engine to evaluate. Well, how is an AI engine gonna know if a particular type of merchant uh is riskier than another type? I mean, I still, like you said, garbage in, garbage out. So you gotta put quality data in to get quality data out of it. I I think AI for onboarding and underwriting has got a role. It's not gonna replace the people who know that particular part of the payments industry. Um, because in the end, you're still dealing with a human on the other side.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And there's there's your risk factor more than anything.
SPEAKER_02:I agree with you. Yeah. Like are you, but are you have so do you get like the opportunity when you're talking to people about stuff like this to actually demo? Will they demo what they're they're looking to roll out? Or yeah?
SPEAKER_00:Uh sometimes they will, yeah. Um you know, it's it was at the Western States show last month. I don't think I saw any demos there, but I'm having the money 2020 at the end of the month. So I'm hoping maybe there'll be something uh I can observe, you know, can watch there and get some more uh knowledge on. Um I think there are other places AI, you know, I've talked to a few of the providers in this space and looking at portfolios for attrition potential. I think there's a good opportunity there for that because that can really expedite that process. That's it. It might take a uh an employee quite a while to go through. Especially, you know, you're talking a few thousand or more merchants, and you're looking for specific criteria that maybe only fifty of them might apply to. But you know, there might be fifty. Very profitable ones who are at risk for leaving. So I think there's opportunities there.
SPEAKER_02:Um I think for the agent having uh I don't know if this is in the marketplace, but having something to actually uh reconcile your residuals versus your schedule A or see where there's like anomalies where where things get bundled in a way, but if you have enough data, you know, I I've I've recently seen you know, the agent's been getting smarter. And there's some really smart agents that aren't necessarily ISOs, and I've seen reporting become condensed recently for agent residuals almost by design, right? I mean, there's some people that when they give you the residual report, they'll give you all of the fields of revenue and expense, and they'll let you go ahead and figure it out. Recently, I've seen like people go away from that and do more of a bundled here's your revenue, and made it very simplistic. But when you do that, you can shield potentially how you're getting or and arriving at those numbers that that represent the revenue share pool. So it's you know, like, is there a spread that's going on? What's the true assessment? I mean, you know, there's a lot of smoke and mirrors that happens, I think, in residual reporting. I think AI could be really beneficial there.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it could like you know, our instructors used to tell us, show me the math. And you can use it as a tool to help you find the you know, how figure out how that's calculated. Um I think there's other opportunities, there's more practical considerations for AI within the industry as well. You know, uh just vetting uh your content you post on your website. Is this compliant? Is this make grammatical sense? Is there a logical flow? Now, this is the writer in me. Because I see a lot of things that could benefit from that sometimes.
SPEAKER_02:No, I think that's super valid, actually. You know, I go to websites, if I see a misspelled word, I'm all who the hell did this, right?
SPEAKER_00:Like it's it all adds up to the credibility, and you want any visitor to your content to you know bel believe that you have credibility and some sort of position of knowledge that you can impart. Um, and all these, you know, it's it's the details. That's where all that gets can be transmitted or or not transmitted.
SPEAKER_02:I I I think I really appreciate you coming on because I I um the no joke.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, thank you. I really appreciate it.
SPEAKER_02:Is really how I educated myself. And I'm gonna throw a shout out to Paul Rianda when I came into this marketplace. Oh, yeah. Great resource, great resource, and very generous with his time with me. When I had an issue for sure, I I and I needed somebody to give me some background. I Paul's up the road. I would call Paul, and he has always been cool. I I worked on something with him last week. He's all he's a great guy, he's always easy to work with. And when I would go online and and look for information, he would be the guy that was putting out the most content. And so, and and a lot of it today, even stuff that he wrote 15 years ago, is relevant. So I I I will say, and he's also been uh you know a contributor to digital transactions, to ISO and agent. And so, and so, but these are the places that I would go to learn, to see what was happening, to see what was going on, to see how we could focus. And we weren't always the greatest. That was just for delivering services to people, but I think that you are a valuable um representative in our community, and I think that as things go on, people should reach out to you. And so I want to I want to thank you for being on. It's it's really, really big for us.
SPEAKER_01:Thank you for listening to this episode of the Payments Experts Podcast, a podcast of Global Legal Law Firm. Visit us online today at global legalaw firm dot com. Matters discussed are all opinions that do not constitute legal advice. All events or likeness to real people and events is a coincidence.