The Payments Experts Podcast
Expert payments attorneys discuss the electronic payments industry from a legal perspective.
The Payments Experts Podcast
Dual Pricing v Cash Discount: Surcharging Mistakes That Trigger Fines | with Supersonic POS | PEP079
Cash Discount ≠ Compliance: Dual Pricing, Debit, and the MATCH Hangover (with Mahdi Hussein, Supersonic POS) (https://supersonicpos.com/)
Ever been told “it’s just a cash discount” only to have a secret shopper’s photos tell a different story? This episode strips the buzzwords down to the brass tacks payments professionals actually live with: the legal and operational differences between dual pricing, cash discounting, and surcharging—and why debit sits in its own lane under Durbin whether your signage acknowledges it or not.
Our guest Mahdi Hussein (Supersonic POS) joins Leo Arzumanyan, Esq., and Jeremy Stock of Global Legal Law Firm, in-studio to connect the dots from family-run C-stores, to building Petro Outlet for cloud price changes and pump-side loyalty, to launching a POS designed to make modern compliance operationally repeatable across everyday merchants.
What really happens when compliance meets the real world
The “cash discount” claim vs. the camera roll: What auditors and secret shoppers actually capture—entry signs, shelf/menu pricing, register signage, and line-level receipts—and why “register-only disclosure” fails.
Debit is not credit: How Durbin and network rules isolate debit from surcharging, common BIN-misclassification pitfalls, and the terminal settings that prevent frontline overrides.
Dual pricing done correctly: Two posted prices everywhere the customer sees a price, consistent with receipts and POS programming—not a fee bolted on at checkout.
Cash discounting done correctly: Posted card price as the standard price; true discount for cash; disclosure where it matters (not just fine print).
MATCH, fraud, and the five-year shadow
Mahdi walks through a hard lesson: a fraudulent merchant account opened in his company’s name triggered a MATCH placement that shut processing down overnight. We unpack:
The paper trail that fixes records (police reports, identity theft affidavits, ISO/acquirer correspondence) and why diligence must be relentless.
How some fraudsters re-file as soon as the five-year term expires, and what monitoring and controls you need to detect and preempt repeat abuse.
Why automated notices and “we’re looking into it” updates don’t undo operational damage when acceptance disappears for weeks.
The new risk stack: compliance risk beside credit risk
State law curveballs vs. network rules: Examples like Minnesota’s higher caps or New York’s two-tier requirements colliding with Visa/Mastercard caps and signage expectations. The default: operate to the strictest overlapping standard.
Fines that stack and escalate: How separate entities with common ownership see assessments multiply; why remediation lag can push penalties from $1,000 to $5,000+ rapidly.
Opaque reporting and “enforcement by screenshot”: How incomplete data invites abuse, and what evidence packets actually de-escalate a case.
POS and program design that actually holds up
BIN-aware configuration: Enforce debit exclusion, hard-cap surcharge percentages by brand, and fail-safe rules that a clerk can’t override.
Receipt and signage automation: Default, non-deletable receipt footers; location-specific sign templates tied to the active pricing model; menu/shelf labels that reflect cash vs. card pricing.
Cost-of-acceptance discipline: Align surcharge/dual pricing amounts to provable acceptance costs; audit monthly so amounts don’t drift out of compliance.
**Matters discussed are all opinions and do not constitute legal advice. All events or likeness to real people and events is a coincidence.**
Visit us today: https://www.globallegallawfirm.com/podcasts/
A payments podcast of Global Legal Law Firm
Just most people don't understand that cash discount and dual pricing are two different things.
SPEAKER_02:Yep.
SPEAKER_05:And I think almost everyone to the states just throws those two terms collected. Like I think most people have learned what surcharging is versus dual pricing to the degree. More awareness in the industry. I don't think anyone really understands what dual pricing. That's a different thing than cash discount. Yeah. Because like we we were doing the two price method, and we were big on the the debit cards. Like the there's the Durban Amendment. It's a thing. People like don't catch that technically. Debit cards are cash. Like you read a law, right? Go look up a law. 2008. The Dodd-Frank Act says cash and debit cards are basically one the same.
SPEAKER_03:Right.
SPEAKER_05:And so trying to understand some of those things, like, oh, so I'm going to cash discount. Great. So you're going to um charge the merchant the fees on cash or debit cards. And they're like, uh no, we're going to run this checker. Oh, so it's not debit card anymore.
SPEAKER_00:Welcome to the Payments Experts Podcast. A podcast of Global Legal Law Firm. We hope you enjoy this episode. Welcome to the Payments Experts Podcast, a podcast of Global Legal Law Firm. We're really excited. We've got an in-studio podcast today. Joining us one of our associate attorneys, Leo Arzimanian, he works in our transactional department, as well as a really special guest, Matty Hussein with Supersonic POS. Moddy, we're really stoked you made it down to San Diego and are joining us in studio. Welcome to the podcast.
SPEAKER_01:Thank you. Yeah, welcome, Mody. I think uh one thing I really like to do when we start this podcast is ask how you got in the industry, because that's something that's always interesting to me. Before I started working here, I never knew about this industry. So I'm always curious how other people got in.
SPEAKER_05:Our story is perhaps one of the more crazy ones of anyone that you hear getting the payments, right? So long go through the long story actually. So we have always owned sea stores, gas stations. I mean, our whole lives. It's me and my father, we've always been in that business. So, you know, I graduated college. I used to work at a government consulting firm in software. So I was doing software government, like software consulting for the government, right? I do like the Great Lakes GIS project, stuff like that. So I did like, you know, just different government projects.
SPEAKER_01:Real quick, just to jump in, do you have background in software? Yeah, so I'm a software engineer.
SPEAKER_05:I went, I went to UF, I'm a computer science degree. That's my thing. So I started off, you know, as a software engineer, and I was going at, you know, I was working in software, graduated college at UF, and then I came home. My father basically left the country for like six months, said, you know, right before COVID, was like, hey, um, can you help me out? Just run the store. And I'm like, I mean, I was working from home, I was remote. I said, okay, I'll help you out. And so during those six months, basically, it was like going from never owning a C-store and never running one, to okay, now you're gonna run one. And so like I learned the C-store business inside and out very quickly.
SPEAKER_01:Just throwing it to the fire.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, I was like, yeah, just run this store, right? And then we did that for a few months. We actually I bought my own C-store eventually, right? Did well with that too. And so I was doing that while also working in software. So it was kind of like like both sides. Um, my father came back and he, you know, basically he um was like, you know, so how was it? And I'm like, horrible, right? Right? Gas stations have like the oldest legacy technology you can imagine. Everything's like Windows or Linux based on-site server. You guys like a headache, yeah. Yeah, like two cables going under the underground, and if a cable gets like a little like finicky or pulled on, the pump goes out, you gotta rerun it under the concrete. Like it's just like it's a mess. Yeah. Um, so I started with that, and like, you know, I was like, but more than that, like if you had two gas stations, you had to change the price at one, each one one by one.
SPEAKER_01:Like manually change it, yeah.
SPEAKER_05:Like so, even actually, most gas stations today, if you don't know that, like you go in this little relay system where the big guy calls the little guy and says, Hey, um, change the price. Like, they don't they change it at the register, they don't like use a central system most most gas stations today. I mean, that's what we got into, right? So, like, we threw all that, opened a software. I basically kind of quit my job, joined uh started up a software company, which was Petrolet. That was our original M. So you got my shirt, it says supersonic POS and it says powered by Petrolet. Because we started off as a gas station software called Petrolet, took all my money, bought my like these licenses to integrate into existing gas station systems. So we were just integrating into like Verifone, Gilbark, like those gas stations. So we we we still do that, right? So we are a certified, you know, Gilbarco Veriphone back office partner. We're still a certified loyalty partner. So we have our own loyalty front end host that we built, and basically to this day we still do it, is you have a gas station. We can basically like do the whole pay at the pump, like loyalty, like the loyalty at the pump, put your phone number in, earn Exxon points. Like we do that.
SPEAKER_03:Okay, cool.
SPEAKER_05:Um, we still and we and on beyond that, we built like the whole back office system. Like you get we basically cloud enabled and modernized a gas station. You can go onto your phone, change the price once, go to all the stores. I mean, basically that, right? So we just cloud enabled and modernized it. Fast forward, we went to Margaret of that 2018, 20, I want to say 2019, when we were like, we got our first like 200 stores off our network, people we knew, we had a real problem we're solving, just gas stations, right? And from there, what we saw was a lot of those gas station guys came to us and said, Hey, um, I like your software. I like using like this this cloud app and everything. This modern software. Yeah, this is nice. Yeah, can I use this at like my I also own a food store, I also own a liquor store, I also own a smoke shop, whatever. They own a different business. Yeah, yeah, and especially in our industry, like the same guys got like different ventures, right? They're all like very similar convenience retail, like the call of the segment. So, you know, we've owned nothing but C-Store and Food Store, and like we we kind of like serviced that, we grew into that, and we so we launched our own POS because the problem was people were coming to saying, Hey, what we want to use you. Like, okay, we'll go buy a$15,000 Vera phone. And they're like, uh I'm good on that. I'm like, okay. So we built a POS that was$1,500 because it was like integrate to Clover was like the alternative. And we're like, yeah. So we built a POS. And I was very anti-POS building at the time. And I was very anti like getting the payments because to me it was a commodity business. It was something that was like very hard to penetrate.
SPEAKER_01:Did you already just jump in, did you already know a little bit about payments? Not at all. At this point, no.
SPEAKER_05:So this that's what that's why that long story, because that's where it ties into another long story. Okay. And it's just kind of like a collision of two things, and like that's what happened. So, you know, that's our journey as a company, Petrellit. And where payments came in was so we were at our gas station using a you know first data merchant account um through North. Um, and we were processing, we had an agent come in, he did uh basically gave us like an interchange five and five, like a really aggressively priced account, right? And it was like we were doing like 30k volume on like on a on like initially this when we give it like a small account. So it was like a small account, right? And we're like, dang, that's a really good rate. Like then we saw our rates went down to 200 bucks, we're like, we were happy, right? And fast forward the time we're launching the POS, we go, we bought another store and we were trying to expand that. And we go to open another mid. And we open the other mid, midday, all our terminals stop working. We're like, what just happened? And so we call the we call our our agent, agent number didn't dial, like dial tone. We call again, it redirects to like some other dude I didn't know. And I'm like, who's this? He's like, Yeah, I'm his boss. Um, you know, I I can't be talking to you right now. They closed your account. I'm like, what do you mean they closed their account for what? Oh, um, I can't be telling you, you should know why you're on this list, man. It's called the match list. I'm like, what? Like, what on what? We didn't know anything about payments. Like, what's and that's that's that's the sad experience for most of these owners. Like, they don't know what yeah, what is match? Like, what is that?
SPEAKER_00:100%.
SPEAKER_05:Like, I'd never heard of this thing, and you're like, I'm suddenly on this list and my my stuff stopped working. And you know, that was my dive into payments because while we were just talking about the PUS, but I was very anti the PUS, or just kind of like, do we integrate to a clover or whatever? This dive into payments happened where we're like, hey, let's let's get off the match. And so we went and we um kind of like learned what an acquire is, what an ISA is to learn this sponsor bank, AD ISO, everything. Like, I'm googling this stuff. Like, what's the what's the what's the ISO, right? What's what's what's the match? So many terms, yeah. And I'm like, so who's the acquire? Who is my sponsor? And I like so I thought, okay, because North wouldn't tell us because they they can't tell you a lot of times on your match, they can't tell you much beyond, oh, you're on match, right? And I'm like, all I knew was Wells Fargo. That doesn't tell me too much. I mean, now I look back at it, I have an idea what that means, but back then you're like, you wouldn't know that Wells Fargo means first date a lot of times, right? They wouldn't, you wouldn't know that. So, like, we start, okay, we caught, we we sent a letter to to to MasterCard. MasterCard basically told us back in 2018 go kick rocks. Under, I mean, they just were kind of deferring us, right? Like they didn't know how to address it. Um, you know, and because they were so hush-hush about it, trying to like contact your choir. Well, we don't know this choir, right? Like, this is something. We'll eventually keep digging for the weed, sending letters out, going for council. We figured out that a fraudulent corporation was opened. Completely different corporations we never heard of. Because we got a lead. We heard that, like the actual we actually found a DBA eventually, like five, like ten denials later, found out the DBA, like this is the actual corp name. It was a freight construction corp, his social, my father's social. Like, oh shoot. And so we went and then like we went, we found the mid, we found the ISO, we sent a letter to them. It was under it was like a five serve ISO underneath them. They had no clue about the fraud, that they had a fraud agent bringing them this fraud, right? And like was who's opening fake accounts and doing these things. And eventually, like, we we we got the whole thing such a way we we filed like any theft report, police report, you know, the property.
SPEAKER_01:Turning the whole thing, yeah.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, turning this whole thing, which my point was we learned payments because we're like, it's just like a trial by fire, what is an ISO, right? What's an acquired, what's a sponsor? We figured all that out and fast forward, you know, it was all at the same time of us considering a POS. So in 20, yeah, end of 2019, 2020, we we were like, okay, I guess we're building a POS, and if we're doing that, we might as well get into payments. And we now know all this stuff about payments, but we'll be income in ISO. And it was kind of like everything led into another. I mean, we met people, we eventually became good friends actually with ISO that you know put us on that, right? Right. But that's wild. It's it's it's a crazy small industry. Like you don't know, like everyone knows each other.
SPEAKER_01:That's one thing I've noticed that's really interesting. Everybody knows each other. It's it's a lot smaller than I think many people realize.
SPEAKER_00:And and as it grows, it seems to get smaller, which is so fascinating. Yeah. Money, I gotta say, it's really interesting that your story into payments involves the match list. Yeah. This law firm, Leo knows, we do a lot of match list removal work, and we see those, we hear those calls every single day. I've never even heard of the match list, but I found out I'm on it. Yeah, I've been shut off. I don't know why. I've been terminated, no one's telling me anything. It's still going on in 2025, man.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, no, we had a we had actually had a merchant on like come to us trying to get a merchant account who's similar situation to us. And we obviously we felt bad because we we were in that boat and we helped them actually, I know we've actually a couple times had merchants come to us and we've helped them get off of match, or recategorized is probably the proper way to say it. We recategored the code, right? Because they'll come in with it being money laundering, and you're like, whoa, right? Right. And then they recategorize to which what it usually is identity theft.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_05:A lot of times what we find is, you know, and you you know, and you can tell right away someone's like identity theft or not. Like, are you willing to go file a police report? If you're scared of filing a police report, it's like, okay, she's going on. Yep, yep. But like, you know, that was a big thing, and we we we've gotten a few people off now because the fact and gotten approved by actual merchant accounts later because of the same exact situation. It's at least now I will state I it's a positive that there's that match email. Yeah, that was not a thing.
SPEAKER_00:Game changer.
SPEAKER_05:That was not a thing.
SPEAKER_00:We used to spend weeks and months just trying to track down the basic information who put you on the match list. Now you get it in a single day.
SPEAKER_01:That almost makes you think there needs to be like a dual price surcharge email now, too, because that's the other thing we're dealing with is tracking out someone to give us guidance from V Sur MasterCard on that issue.
SPEAKER_05:Well, and they all and they all tie together, right? So I'll finish that match thing, which was for us, even it actually still haunts us years later. So you know, the match thing was five years, right? Match is five years. Yep, yep. And you know, it was it's been five years since the fraud. So we got off of match. But as those fraudsters watch, and I didn't realize this, but like five years later, the identity was gone. They they looked and found the court and they refiled again a new and they did all over. They watched the court for five years. As soon as they saw it fell off, they went and they did it, but now they're gonna do if they did it for square and they do it for like into it, they do it for the different, yeah. This no different navigate said making a real mid, let's go through a payfack, right? And they they literally watched this and five years later we'll refile the fraud.
SPEAKER_01:I wonder if that's some sort of auto-trigger like software monitoring as soon as someone gets off. It makes sense.
SPEAKER_05:I mean, all they have to do is know, like, dang, I screwed this guy in 2017. It's put on my counter 2022. Two years later, yeah. Get back. Yeah, that's crazy. I mean, but it happened to us. My point match is it'll haunt you forever, honestly.
SPEAKER_00:It is comprehensive. I'll tell you, Mati, I talk to people every single day who they're on the verge of losing their business. You know, because a lot, you know, a lot of merchants, you gave them you can't process for 30 days. That's credit cards.
SPEAKER_01:Especially if it's a mom and pop shop, you're screwed. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00:Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01:It's interesting how your story kind of has all this like a collision course of events where it just led you to where you are today. Now you guys are the successful company. I have a question. If your dad didn't go out of town for that long period of time and didn't have you run the store, would you be here today?
SPEAKER_05:No, not at all. I'd probably be working in a software engineer. Yeah. So it's interesting how life works.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it is, it's really incredible. Well, now that we know that, I I guess I'd be curious to ask you, what are, you know, let me let me backtrack. Something that we've been talking a lot about lately is, you know, the compliance when it comes to dual pricing, surcharging, casual scanning, right? This whole like kind of umbrella of terms and processes that Visa and MasterCard are are requiring the merchants you know comply with, but then they're banging out fine after fine, not really explaining the reasoning behind the fine, not really giving merchants a chance to cure these issues before they just get hit. And as we were talking off camera, they get hit with a thousand dollar fine, but then it goes to five, twenty-five thousand. It really increases substantially. So, what I want to ask you is what are you seeing with your your customers when it comes to all this, when it comes to these issues that we're seeing?
SPEAKER_05:So, you know, supersonic PUS, that's our we kind of rebranded from Petra. We've gotten more into the POS, and that's really what we do now is we're a POS company. We back in 2018, we're doing all this, we that was our like our big thing was dual pricing. So we actually we that's when you guys became our council. Was you know, we sent you like, okay, hey, here's the the two price, and we were very big on like let's show here's like back in 2018, cash price, card price at the line level on our POS, right? And at the total. And more than that, like again, like there's levels that people don't kind of like put in the kind of because what I've seen over the years, and dual pricing's evolved a lot around the program itself. It used to just be like, hey, um let's just let's just put a cash adjustment at the end, right? Or non-cash adjustment or whatever and call it a dual, right? Or cash discount. And like I think a huge thing is even just most people don't understand that cash discount and dual pricing are two different things.
SPEAKER_02:Yep.
SPEAKER_05:And I think almost everyone to the states this throws those two terms collected. Like, I think most people have learned what surcharging is versus dual pricing to the degree, to some like to some extent.
SPEAKER_04:I want that's got more brand aware, more awareness in the industry.
SPEAKER_05:But I don't think anyone really understands what dual pricing that's a that's a different thing than cash discount. Yeah, because like we we were doing the the two price method, and we were big on the the debit cards, like the there's the Durban Amendment, it's the thing. People like don't cash that technically, debit cards are cash. Like you read a law, right? Go look up a law 2008. The Dodd Frank Act says cash and debit cards are basically one the same, right? And so trying to understand some of those things, like, oh, well, so I'm gonna cash discount. Great. So you're going to um charge the merchant the fees on cash or debit cards, and they're like, uh no, we're gonna run this checker. Oh, so it's not debit card anymore. That's that bin range is a debit card bin range. And it's like they don't kind of catch those aspects. And like we've seen obviously we've seen Visa audits come through and we've seen these fines get passed down. That are, you know, how Visa kind of comes about these a lot of times is and they're thorough. Like we had like an audit and it came picture by picture. Every like the each receipt, they went in once of cash or a debit card, once of a credit card, and then they went and took a picture of the storefront, the sign.
SPEAKER_01:These were secret shoppers just for our listeners, secret shoppers.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, they they secret shop and they're thorough. They have that thorough record a lot of times of like this is what we're like, no, we got you. And it's not like a lot of times they're not just coming and saying, Oh, we we we think we have you. It's usually like, no, we secret shops and we have seven pictures, and they're waiting for you to say no, so they can hit you if that. Oh, so you remedied it. Okay, you're going to five now. Yeah, and you're going to one to five jump. Because before it used to be a warning, and then five, right? Yeah. Now it's kind of like I think actually, I'm gonna be the crazy person that says this. I think it's a positive that they start the one just because versus the warning. Yeah, just because a lot of merchants will see the warning, it's kind of like a speeding ticket. Yeah, and kind of ignore, like, oh, yeah. Yeah, they ignore it, and the next day later they get a five. Five, yeah. Now that's a good point. And it's like, at least the one, it's like it's an opportunity to open a dialogue from between the ISO and the merchant. Like, hey, you got hit with one, it's gonna be five. And then they're doing this. It's not like don't think you're gonna get around this.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, it's gonna be a five. Show us what you're doing, let us tell you how how to fix it. And it opens that dialogue.
SPEAKER_05:So I I'm the crazy person that says the one is a five.
SPEAKER_01:That's a good argument. I I I get that. I haven't heard anyone say that, but it makes sense.
SPEAKER_05:But it is definitely been something that they've been heavy on, yeah. And I think it's absolutely something that like it's it's a problem if we if not doing it right.
SPEAKER_01:Would you say is is this one of the number one issues you're seeing in modern day kind of like payments industry, or is the biggest risk vector for anybody looking to take on.
SPEAKER_05:So I also think I'm a little different in the sense that most people look at risk when they go like I'm gonna transition from retail to wholesale, whatever, right? And they think, okay, you my risk is a$5,000 average ticket. And I'm like, well, the risk, that's credit risk. But then there's you know, there's regulational risk, and then there's also this this new risk, which is network compliance risk. Like you don't know if it's a one, if it's like the same owner versus same address. And I've seen both situations get carried over on fines, right? Like, like a guy will come in with one, with a one, like he'll have like a perfect compliance store, the for then or not compliant, let's say the first owner will then come in and say he gets it, gets a fine for one K. Then he sells it to completely different dudes, same different corporation, different owner. The second owner comes in and says, What's a different owner? And Visa comes back and ups the fine to five. And it's like, well, this is a different owner.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, you see, that's ridiculous, Jeremy. We've never heard this one. No, we've heard we talked in our last episode about one owner, multiple different businesses. Even then, I think that's ridiculous that he they get fined. They're all separate entities, separate businesses. You should not, if you get hit with one K at one business, if your other business is non-compliant, they shouldn't get hit with 5k after that, right?
SPEAKER_05:That's kind of I mean, I don't know if it's even if it's legal or not, but I will say I think the biggest things happen that it's just it's something that it's hard for the cons for the store to deal with. Like try going to an acquirer and telling them we want to contest this fine.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_05:And then trying to open the dialogue with the with actually opening it with visa. And it's just the the line of communication somewhere is a little broken.
SPEAKER_01:We tried, and it didn't go too far recently.
SPEAKER_05:It's it's it's and it's like and it's like who the point the fingers at is a different, you know, whatever. But like I think there's definitely an issue. Like a merchant gets hit with fine, and trying to find where like the like where that issue is is hard.
SPEAKER_01:And and you know, I've I've bit brought this up so many times. Like I said, I deal with this on a weekly basis. Clients call us every week, and I'm usually the you know, the front of the line kind of answering their questions. There's such a big issue because you have to deal with the card brand rules, but then you have to deal with state rules, and a lot of states are now getting involved in passing their own laws. So you yeah, New York, a lot of first. Yeah, and then there's like just I love to throw this out as an example. Minnesota for surcharge caps, they allow up to five percent. Well, if you follow Minnesota's law, you're following, you're violating Visas 3% and MasterCards 4%.
SPEAKER_05:But then you get into like, see, that like and there's so many nuances to that exact thing that we've seen, right? Like, like, okay, what there's a state-level jurisdictional law which will say, okay, this is surcharging. But the state law might be written to say surcharging and dual pricing are almost the same.
SPEAKER_03:Right.
SPEAKER_05:Whereas obviously the car brands have this, I don't want to say very rigid, but this fairly rigid, like somewhat rigid kind of concept, at least established. It's been established now. We've seen it enough finds go out in the market that we know, like, okay, this is what surcharging is, this is what dual price, we know what these things are, right? Um, when you look at like, you know, the state level ones, that's like it's hard. Like, okay, New York calls basically dual pricing surcharging. Yeah, again, the law is written as surcharged. But it's just what's crazy to me is the concept of like the whole cost of acceptance thing, which is like no one also is looking at that. Like, that's been a huge because I think some we see a lot of we a lot of times we'll go in and talk to a sea store and try to explain to them what they're doing is not compliant. I've seen it in a lot of states where like an owner say I'm doing the 50, the 50 cent under$5 thing. That's violation of surcharge rules, or the I'm going to charge 3% and then I'm gonna pocket it the difference. And I'm like, I'm like, that's also not compliant. It's above your cost of acceptance. And like, oh no, but this is but why so why should I give it to you? Like, why am I paying an ISO to do this? And they think to them that's like there's no value of compliance, and there's just that concept of like, what is this, right?
SPEAKER_00:Thank you for listening to this episode of the Payments Experts Podcast, a podcast of global legal law firm. Visit us online today at global legalawfirm.com. Matters discussed are all opinions that do not constitute legal advice. All events or likeness to real people and events is a coincidence.