The Payments Experts Podcast
Expert payments attorneys discuss the electronic payments industry from a legal perspective.
The Payments Experts Podcast
M&A Tech Diligence for Payments: The “Technical Carfax” You Need | Meet Traceless.com | PEP082
Social Engineering Beats Your Stack: Fix Identity or Get Breached
A single phone call to a help desk shouldn’t sink a global brand—yet it happens. We dig into how social engineering bypasses expensive tools, why identity verification matters at the exact human moments work gets done, and how to measure cyber risk before it becomes tomorrow’s headline. With Peter Segerstrom of Traceless (https://traceless.com/) —a CTO turned advisor who’s audited stacks for acquisitions and built teams from a spare bedroom to scale—we unpack the messy reality of software in payments and fintech: open‑source dependencies, brittle architectures, migrations that stall, and the quiet warts you inherit when you buy code along with revenue.
Christopher Dryden, Esq., traces with Peter how a simple phone call can topple complex systems and why identity verification sits at the heart of modern security. Peter shares a CTO’s view on auditing tech in payments M&A, grading risk, and building Traceless to protect real transactions in real time.
• social engineering as a primary breach vector
• why tech diligence now drives payments and fintech M&A
• lessons from scaling a startup to operational maturity
• auditing architecture, dependencies and maintainability
• open source as foundation and risk surface
• risk grading frameworks buyers can act on
• what cyber risk means for vendors and SaaS reliance
• real‑time identity verification for help desks and workflows
• AI as force multiplier for attackers and defenders
We walk through the practical M&A playbook: inventory the stack, map data flows, assess maintainability, and grade risks so executives can decide what to fix, mitigate, insure, or avoid. Peter explains how a “technical Carfax” reframes negotiations, saving buyers from hidden liabilities and helping sellers prepare cleanly. We also talk vendor risk and why relying on major SaaS platforms can be safer than running your own server—while still demanding least privilege, strong logging, and incident plans that assume someone will eventually pick the wrong link or trust the wrong voice.
Then we widen the lens to Traceless and the identity problem at the core of modern breaches. Real‑time verification for customers, partners, and employees closes the easiest door attackers use: impersonation. From teenager pranksters to nation‑state zero‑days, the threat spectrum is wide, and AI now powers both sides—faster phishing and reconnaissance for attackers, smarter analysis and stress testing for defenders. The takeaway is clear: build verification into business workflows, treat architecture as a living system, and make risk visible with honest grading.
If this conversation helps you think differently about due diligence and operational resilience, follow the show, share it with a colleague, and leave a quick review so more people can find it.
**Matters discussed are all opinions and do not constitute legal advice. All events or likeness to real people and events is a coincidence.**
Visit Global Legal Law Firm today: https://www.globallegallawfirm.com/podcasts/
A payments podcast of Global Legal Law Firm
You still can have someone pick up the phone, call someone else, and say that they are a different person and immediately have the trust of that other person, right? So this happened with MGM in 2023. The Jaguar attack that just happened cost Jaguar approximately two billion pounds in in like lost revenue. Wow. And like they had to get a government bailout. This just happened like this happened like a couple months ago or maybe a month and a half ago. What happened? The car manufacturer. The car manufacturer. Can you tell our audience what happened? I didn't hear about that. So so there's the the the details are always the details always get blurred by PR, by the company themselves. Um, you know, and and in some cases, because there's the fog of war that they actually don't understand what happened. But um, if I remember correctly, in this instance, uh, this is the same group that that went after uh Markson Spencer and um MGM in 2023. The a really common tactic that they use is you know, they just call into the help desk.
SPEAKER_00:Welcome to the Payments Experts Podcast, a podcast of Global Legal Law Firm. We hope you enjoy this episode.
SPEAKER_02:Hey, it's nice to have you here. Like the reason that I wanted to have you on is just a tiny bit of what I'm kind of seeing based on the conversation last few minutes. But um the thing for me and why I thought it was important and how it overlapped is I met Peter maybe two years ago we were working on something. I think more than that. It might have been longer than that, totally. And and um there was a purchase and sale of an ISO that had technology with it, and the funder of this had been using Peter for the kind of background on analyzing, auditing the technology that was coming along in the purchase and sale. Yeah, that's right. And I had never really thought about it, but then we talk on this podcast all the time about how payments has now become really technology and it's fintech. Yes. And then I saw in that application how important what you were doing was. And then getting to talk to you, you're really easy to talk to. Peter's uh also UCSD alumnus, which I came to find out. That's correct.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I think that was like the second time we talked on the phone. I just I was like, why is it so easy to talk to Chris? Is this like we're just automatically just having Tritons, baby? Yeah, exactly. It's just like it's immediately a vibe. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:But um, so we've always like one of the things that we do is mergers and acquisitions. And so as we do that, most of the time they're fairly simple because they're really geared around rights to receive revenue. But as technology becomes increasingly bigger in our space, that is actually becoming the primary asset that goes along with the revenue. And generally speaking, most of the people in our industry historically have not been technology people. Yes. I think it's being populated now much more by technology people. Probably, right? Yeah. Yeah. But what I thought was fascinating, and I've actually sent you other people, and I I know that you've been you've done work for them and and actually saved them from maybe going down a road that they shouldn't have gone down. Yes, particular transition. Thank you again for that. Yes. Of course. Yeah, but I now see this as something that's really needed in the MA space. How like how have you seen kind of your role first getting into these types of transactions that are more around payments? But then in general, like, you know, is this part of traceless? And on top of that, is it solely around um obviously probably not around the payment ecosystem, but like, you know, where do you where does your need come in and how?
SPEAKER_01:Okay, so that's a very uh that's a great question. It's probably there's gonna be a relatively long answer here. That's okay, man. But um, I guess, you know, to to completely back up, um, you know, I got involved, you know, I'm from Northern California. I got involved in technology in the early 90s in high school. A bunch of my friends were hackers, and uh, we did a bunch of stuff that you probably shouldn't do. Um, but I I learned about technology very early on. And then when I went to UCSD, I studied, I did sort of a hybrid program. Um I did did music, but then I also, you know, because there were it was a part of the the uh the curriculum, took a bunch of uh computer science classes, and this is, you know, this is right around the turn of the century, and um the the writing was on the wall, the internet was basically going to be a part of everything, yeah. Just like a kind of a given. Um, and so I sort of, you know, I I had a have a really funny relationship with technology. I went to art school after that and then and just kind of bopped around, moved to New York. Uh, but at a certain point, really recognized that um it was going to start to affect everything. And so uh completely, I mean, I think the sort of common theme within my career is that I've been extremely lucky to be around very smart people and just be adjacent to them. And so I got the opportunity to um be the CTO of a company called The Social Edge. I was uh like sort of cold called by this guy named Lorenzo Tione, um, brilliant, brilliant founder. Um, he founded a company called PowerSet. He sold that to Microsoft, I think, in like 2008 or 2009. Um he has a PhD in AI from uh U of T, I think, if I remember correctly. And um he was just like, hey, I just have this weird thing. I I interviewed for another random job. Um, and one of his friends interviewed me and and I sort of understood that I was a generalist and I have a really like I love technology. I've also been a teacher, but I've so I've I've been in this kind of like uh hybrid spot where I've had to explain technology to people sometimes who don't understand it or who are in the process of learning to understand it. And that was sort of one of the criteria that Lorenzo wanted. And so um we we scaled that company from four people to 40 at our peak, we were doing 10 million a year. Um it was it was incredible, it was fantastic. And so then after that, so I was a CTO.
SPEAKER_02:That's actually like that watching that like scale and watching an organization go from a closet to like an actual organization. Exactly.
SPEAKER_01:Like two people's two people literally sitting in like a spare bedroom, like in, you know, on 7th Avenue in the mid-50s, um, to you know, like just editing everything on spreadsheets to to like we built custom software in-house for the app for the uh for the team. Uh we scaled out, you know, the engineering organization to like nine. It was it was so much fun. I learned so much. There was also the other person that I have to to give a shout-out to was Steve Damron, um, who was our COO. He was um uh he was employee number 275 at Sun Microsystems. Oh, really? Yeah. And so he was there. He was at he was at Sun um from like you know that number to they scaled to about 20,000 people. So he he was, I mean, he has so much experience in that space. It's amazing. Anyway, long story short, um, that was the first time I was a I was a CTO, and the really enjoyable experience there for me was just watching people and talking to them and making sure that technology supported them in their job roles and their in their lives in terms of what they were trying to do. And so that um through that, through that um business, I met Gene Reich, who's now my um sorry, sorry, Gene Rich, who's my um, that's always the way I have to say it that way to Siri, because otherwise she won't let me text him. Um but uh so Gene Rich was the uh founder of a company called Points, and they uh when the when the company scaled, at a certain point, he he runs a managed service provider. Uh and so at a certain point I decided that I didn't want to just reset people's emails all day. And so we hired them and they came in and did an amazing job. Um and so that's that's how we met. And after that, he started to reach out to me every now and again and say, hey, I have I have a client that is you know interested in doing uh an acquisition, but they don't have anyone in in-house, like on either side, um, that is able to actually like you know audit the technology.
SPEAKER_02:And most of the time, like at least what I've seen, and that one transaction and then others, it's stuff that's been designed internally that doesn't necessarily it's it hasn't been well thought out. You know, like a new idea, right? Yeah, totally like you build something and then then you build upon it some more, and then you have to change something over here that causes five disruptions over here. Exactly. Yeah, and there's not like a comprehensive thought to the architecture of it. Exactly.
SPEAKER_01:And so as you're trying to troubleshoot, it like freaks out. A lot of times, um, you know, companies will have technical uh employees, and if they have the right initiative, they'll just start building software for you know, in-house for for the company. This was Steve Jobs' vision in like the early 90s. You do if you go back and you look, you watch him, he talks about apps like really early on. And the whole idea is that you know, software is malleable and flexible, and so it's natural that companies are going to start to build internal tooling that helps them get the job done, done. And then there's also um, you know, then naturally as things sort of as as um spaces emerge where there's software often purchased, you're gonna need people to help you, you know, sort of integrate that, that kind of stuff, right? And so, but so in that instance, and and sort of how that, you know, how like uh I realize that my background would would benefit that is just essentially just to go into a situation, I'm constantly auditing software for my own company. I'm constantly looking at software vendors, looking at really like simple libraries and saying, okay, is this actually, is this gonna break in two years? Is this well maintained? Is it secure? Like, is the output or the format of this, you know, whatever the data is or whatever it whatever it's actually doing, is that going to be um uh immediately usable by the people that are using it, right? Does is it gonna work?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And so, and so, yeah, so the the the few projects that we've done together and all the projects that I did sort of leading up to it, that was the um the question that I had I had to answer. And I completely backed into this, right? Because this is if you the you know this what you just said about sort of you know, like someone builds something from the inside and you have no idea how it works, that scales all the way up to the the big, big, big leagues, right? There are there are there are software acquisitions that have happened in the last 10 years where I mean I won't name any names, but there have been instances where um like an absolute top of the top uh you know software company purchased another uh unicorn, maybe even decacorn, and said, sure, okay, well, you know, part of what we're gonna do is we're gonna migrate like your entire infrastructure from one cloud to another, and then just failed.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And just said, okay, we actually can't do that. Because it's so it's so difficult to have X-ray vision and like look into what's actually going on.
SPEAKER_02:Well, I was gonna say, how can you prospectively stress test stuff like that? Like, because to me, like you can see it, you can see where it's been built, but then like projecting as to like what it's gonna do or what you may need to do to it to get it to like a new generation. Like, yeah, is that something that you're focused on as well?
SPEAKER_01:Well, I mean, so interesting, this is something that AI is making easier. Um, we can get into that if you want, but there's like that's a whole that's a whole area where it is helping things. But um, you know, I think it's very, very hard for even like very, very good people to anticipate that. This is the reason why this type of work, this type of consulting work, is often um, you know, given to the big four. Like this is this is this is like capital C consulting stuff. So it's like if you have two companies that are gonna really take this seriously in terms of doing a merger at a software level, you're gonna want a BCG or a McKinsey to come in and have someone who is, you know, like a team of technical people to say, okay, cool, we're gonna help you get through this. You're gonna pay us an ungodly amount of money. Yeah. And and it's true. And and you and what we're gonna do is we're gonna help you literally take the plugs and say, okay, here's the inlet, here's the outlet, you know, boom, put them together. Yeah. One, two, three, and shepherd you through the process over the course of two or three years.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, and that's the that's the interesting part. Like operationally, I find that to be fairly easy. Right. I mean, cultures don't always mix mix and match. That's that's that's a X factor, right? Right. But you can kind of see and then you can see how things are architected. But then now with the advent of technology, and I would say like when you look at people who use technology versus no technology, it's kind of like cars, right? Today in today's day, maybe not back in historically, because cars were much more they're simple able, yeah, simple and able to be worked on by a common person. Today with with technology, you can't work on your car, exactly, right? But I I consider all technology kind of like this to a certain degree. Like, you know, I can't open up my computer and I I can look at it and kind of recognize what's in there, yeah, but I have no idea, right? Like totally, totally.
SPEAKER_01:The one the one thing that is, you know, the the I would say one of the most, you know, unsung heroes, even though a lot of people are obviously huge proponents of of how this has gotten easier is the fact that you know, so much of the internet and so much of what um people use day to day is now open source. Or, you know, like the entire internet's built on open source. Every single company that is, you know, that is like um that has made a splash in the last 10 years as a startup, as like a unicorn, um fundamentally has is like wildly dependent on open source. And that is one thing that where you know you can start to trust more and more when a small company says, okay, well, we're gonna we're gonna build XYZ, they're gonna do so probably out of like what's close at hand. Those are gonna be relatively accessible, vetted libraries, typically, right? And that as that as that pattern gets more common, as that sort of muscle gets built across culture, across industry, um, it does get easier to say, okay, you know, I mean, this is how I can do my job. Like I can airdrop into an organization with an engineering team of 20 people, and they can say, I can say, just give me the checklist of what your stack is, right? I can say, like, and they'll they'll say, okay, you know, we're on it, we're on AWS, we use dynamo, um, you know, we use Lambda, um, you know, we use three or four other things. It's usually just alphabet soup, right? But then, but out of that, you'll be able to say, okay, cool, that makes I can understand how each of those things, you know, sort of ties together. All the things I just mentioned are not open source, but they're all based on open source.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, so so that's the thing. It's foundational. I I only see it from the perspective of uh doing disclosure schedules. And so when we get to the reps and warranties and we get into technology, yes, this is where I've kind of seen like this broken out. Yes. Not in a format that I necessarily understand, but in a way where I see that the architecture of what's been built a lot of times is just bootstrapped to something that was the starting point, you know.
SPEAKER_01:For sure. And and I think um I have another good friend who was uh sort of a friend of that company uh who is an incredible CTO. He he sold his company relatively recently for I think something like 125, you know, something like that. And he would always say, like he was sort of my mentor while I was there, and he would always say he's he would say, no matter what anyone says, it's all just like gum and dental floss and duct tape. Everything is just no matter what anyone says, you're gonna get people coming at you being like, this is all perfect, we do this, you know. What and it makes me feel better because I I do think that there's a lot. Um, you know, there are there's obviously like sort of a uh there's a range there. Um, but yeah, I mean I think to your to your point about sort of the um how you d describe risk to the buyer, that is like one of the one of the harder things about doing this type of like reporting and sort of like investigatory work is like it's really different, you know, it's like this. Well it's imperfect, right?
SPEAKER_02:I mean it's it's it's inherently imperfect. Yes. Like what you're actually, I mean, there's no predictability. Well, there's less predictability for what you're analyzing. So yeah, it's it's kind of hard from that perspective. Yes. But I think what's helpful about what you do is if you're gonna buy, you know, the warts. Yes. It's kind of like your Carfax. I'm gonna go back to a car analogy, but you're somewhat like Carfax because you're like going in and you're looking at it and you're like, yeah, this this could be a potential problem. And and I and the cool part was is when you did it, you had like a a um a grading scale of like, here's how good I feel about this. Like, this could be a problem. I thought that was cool to try to put it into optics that people could kind of digest and and you know, analyze from that perspective where you know you're doing the detailed work and they're like taking it in, but it's in a usable format.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, you have to give people something that's in a consumable format. That comes from, you know, cybersecurity. That comes from like there's a lot of different uh mechanisms within cybersecurity in terms of rating vulnerabilities, um, and you know, trying to, you know, uh really quickly just give someone a top-line understanding of like what the risk is and like the context of the risk. So yeah, I think that kind of that comes that stuff comes naturally just because that's a that's a part of like what I have to do.
SPEAKER_02:And well, it and it's interesting because you know, this was what I thought our the our podcast was really gonna be about because this has been my experience with you. Yeah, yeah. But then as we sat down earlier, and I see that's being a subset of traceless, but tell us about the genesis of traceless and then what traceless does, because I think what traceless does is a larger general context of what you were doing specifically when we were working on transactions. Exactly. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:So I mean, so I because I mean I I, you know, I do not have a formal cybersecurity background, but I've been dealing with the internet for a long time. And I've, you know, the internet is made out of Swiss cheese. That's like one of my sort of maxims that I always say. I think a lot of people say that. Um, and so uh throughout my time just building websites, you know, uh trying to hack MySpace when that was a thing. Um you know, when you uh what was the guy's name that he was your friend?
SPEAKER_02:He was your first Tom, he was your first friend. I'm like, who's Tom? Exactly. But um Where's the chicks?
SPEAKER_01:But um yeah, so I mean basically throughout throughout my entire um uh time dealing with technology, it's just like that's been sort of the that has been a continuous kind of background awareness. And so it kind of culminated at, you know, at a certain point I realized, okay, once, you know, for my next startup, I think I'm probably gonna do a cybersecurity startup because that is the, you know, you have different types of risk. And and in terms of these acquisitions, what I'm trying to do with the buyer and also the seller, just in terms of you do a little bit of therapy, right? You're like you're you're going and you're talking to someone, they're they're trying to get their company sold, and you're like, okay, maybe you don't know all the potential problems that are happening with your company. And so you want to think about different, you try to contextualize the different liabilities. One of the biggest liabilities at this point is you know, just cyber risk. And so that's sort of the the genesis of uh traceless came out of that.
SPEAKER_02:So so that's a term that I think it would be beneficial for all of our listeners to actually unpack, right? I mean, to me, like you're saying cyber risk or cybersecurity. Break that down. I mean, break down cyber risk because I don't think a lot of people like it's just a term. Of course. Of course.
SPEAKER_01:I mean, and that's the problem, is that it's um uh vulnerabilities on the internet and cybersecurity is now it's it's moved so quickly, it's expanded so quickly, but this is also because you know the internet is expanded, adoption of the internet has expanded really quickly. So cyber risk is essentially the you know, the risk that um if you're if you're using a tool, like let's just say for in the specific within the context of an of an acquisition, uh cyber risk is essentially you're using something that is wildly out of date, has noted vulnerabilities, like you're using a piece of software that essentially has a backdoor, let's just say, right? And so we was talking about securing the house, right? It's just the it's a really simple metaphor. And so um most people that run businesses uh really don't want to think about cyber risk. They don't want to think about, they don't want to think about technical risk in general, um, because most of them don't really want to think about technology. They just want to run their business, which is a completely normal and like natural desire. It's it's challenging because technology has become progressively central, more and more central, more and more complex.
SPEAKER_02:Um, and integrated. I mean, look, uh expected, right? For me, for sure, because like I've got people working on three or four systems from accounting to ops to and I want those to talk to one another. Jeremy works on his own marketing system, but HubSpot. Yeah, and we just found out that HubSpot is integratable with our our um CRM, our our our actual CRM that we use for law law firm operations. Yeah, and totally because look, I'm not looking to replace people, but I'm looking to automate as much as possible. Because if you do the the setup right, the automation will automatically just create product that is to me, if it's done correctly, the end result will be correct. And I can rely on it. Correct. Yeah. Yeah. So like I so this is so we'll and I tangent, and you just said something that really like I thought about because A, most of what we use today is web-based. So I could see how the internet would be a more integral and how security comes through with that. But then a lot of the other parts of it are how much am I supposed to rely on the software provider that I'm accessing through the internet beyond uh user permissions to know that I'm protected? Or I mean, this is something that I don't even know necessarily on a contract basis, but yeah, how how how much reliance can I put? And I had somebody from West say this to me once. Okay. We used to have because all of the data that we operate in, it's PII, it's PCI. Yes. If I wanted to commit identity theft, I could have a million times over. Because I have so much information. Yes. Well, we when we started the firm, we had a physical server. And that physical server, I had a whole bunch of lines of protection. I knew where it was, right? And then you have a lock on the door. That's right. We taught, and then we talked to West, and there was some sort of web-based application that they were trying to sell us. And I was like, Well, what about data integrity and security? And the guy kind of laughed at me. And he's like, Look, this is what we do. He's like, I am sure that what I'm doing, you'll be more secure with me than you will be on your own. Yes. And I said, you know what? That's a really valid point. I I appreciate what you just said. But at the same time, how much reliance as a user of business software can I have when we're talking about cybersecurity?
SPEAKER_01:That's, I mean, that is a that is a great question. And that is that is a virtually impossible to answer question because of the the the variegate the various sort of the composition of like what your company is and what you do can change from industry to industry. The vendors that you're dependent on can change. Dropbox.
SPEAKER_02:Everybody rolls with Dropbox. Yes. Okay, so I've got user permissions for people in Dropbox. Yes. Um, I know that there's a lot of ways for people to infiltrate. It could be through, it could be through my wireless router, it could be through all sorts of ways that somebody could get into us. But like Dropbox, like so widely used. If I put something in it and I don't screw up, am I?
SPEAKER_01:What are the chances that they screw up? Yeah. Great question. Um, the, you know, they're not necessarily likely, but this is where, I mean, I guess this is another, this is another thing we could talk about that is so complicated about cybersecurity. Cyber risk is, you know, so part of what we do at Traceless, I'll get, I'll give you the elevator pitch in a minute, but basically part of what we do at Traceless is on-demand identity verification, right? So traceless is essentially real-time protection of data and identity.
SPEAKER_02:So like two-factor authentication, like that type of thing.
SPEAKER_01:Exactly. Yeah, but but specifically for data and specifically in in specific contexts where you're doing transactions with either your customer or like a business partner or employee, like that kind of thing. Um, what's crazy about the way the internet works and sort of the cognitive dissonance that we have to deal with is that to your point about Dropbox, on one hand, you still can have someone pick up the phone, call someone else, and say that they are a different person and immediately have the trust of that other person, right? So this happened with MGM in 2023. The Jaguar attack that just happened cost Jaguar approximately two billion pounds in in like lost revenue. Wow. And like they had to get a government bailout. This just happened like this happened like a couple months ago, or maybe a month and a half ago. What happened? The car manufacturer. The car manufacturer. Can you tell our audience what happened? I didn't hear about that. So so there's the the the details are always the details always get blurred by PR, by the company themselves. Um, you know, and and in some cases, because there's the fog of war, they actually don't understand what happened. But um, if I remember correctly, in this instance, uh, this is the same group that that went after uh Marks and Spencer and um MGM in 2023. The a really common tactic that they use is you know, they just call into the help desk. They call in and they say, or they call into the internal IT desk and they say, I'm so-and-so, I work for you. I need help, I need to reset my password or I need to do whatever, right? So you have that on one side. Yeah. You have that action, which is so simple on one side. And then on the other side, you have like a nation state. You have you have someone who is like worked on a Microsoft Zero Day for five years. Like what that means is they they have they know some, they know a vulnerability that exists, like baseline within Microsoft's cloud infrastructure that nobody else knows about, right? Those things are actual pure gold in in terms of the hacker community, right? Because it means that you can go do something that no one is expecting you to do and just get in. So it's so crazy, right? So we have this, we have this continuum where you are trying to defend against a 17-year-old who's just like being a clown, try like like prank calling you.
SPEAKER_02:Has no perspective necessarily on the world. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, what his actions could produce.
SPEAKER_01:You could you could have someone prank call you and bring down your business all the way to you could have a cloud provider like Microsoft, like Google, and you know, AWS, they all have had zero days. They've all had have had instances where they were sitting on a they were, you know, they have a castle, it's got a thousand doors, and one of them is just unlocked. Yeah, and they don't know it, right? And you have someone who has the time and the sophistication to kind of like navigate that process to go get something that they want, right? So but here's a random question. Sure. Does AI help them in that process?
SPEAKER_02:Wow.
SPEAKER_01:Like it's no, this is like this is um this is this is a really, really common uh point of discussion these days. And I think I mean it's it's very interesting. It is a it is uh uh I guess you could call it a war attrition, but it but it helps both sides. Okay, right?
SPEAKER_02:So like if like if if I'm a hacker out there and because I think that looking at that perspective is relevant to the conversation that we're having, yeah. Are they able to use the tools that are like coming into the marketplace? 100%. Yeah. And they probably have more sophisticated tools than we're we're gonna have as consumers.
SPEAKER_01:One one refrain that I think is gonna be useful probably for the next few years is that AI is as good as you are. So I I agree.
SPEAKER_02:It's software, it's like software, garbage in, garbage out. Exactly. I agree, I agree. If you teach AI and you and you have particular outcomes that you're looking for, yes, and you work it and train it, yeah, yeah, 100%. I think it's an unbelievable tool.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. So if you have someone that has, you know, I mean, if you think about, you know, like AI is essentially it's memorize the internet, right? And so if you have someone who is like uh uh a, you know, like an organic chemist that has like a PhD in like, you know, bioorganic chemistry or whatever, right? They can sit down with Chat GPT and have some really interesting conversations. They can probably use it to push their research forward. They can probably, you know, have it help them think about some areas that they didn't necessarily think about before.
SPEAKER_00:Thank you for listening to this episode of the Payments Experts Podcast, a podcast of Global Legal Law Firm. Visit us online today at Global Legal Law Firm dot com. Matters discussed are all opinions that do not constitute legal advice. All events or likeness to real people and events is a coincidence.