From Ill Health to Abundance: Reframing Mental Wellness

What if the power to support mental health wasn't limited to those with white coats and advanced degrees? What if the most powerful mental health tool was something we all possess naturally—our ability to be genuinely present with another human being?

Dr. Kenneth Uwajeh returns to #mindfullywithtunmise with a revolutionary perspective that reimagines mental health as existing on a spectrum from "mental poverty" to "mental abundance." 

This profound shift moves us beyond viewing mental health through the lens of illness and instead recognises it as a fluid state we all navigate throughout our lives.

The conversation reveals a startling truth backed by research: 86% of healing depends not on clinical technique but on human connection. 

This finding underpins The Healthy Mind Foundation's groundbreaking initiative to democratise mental health knowledge, equipping everyday people—from religious leaders to teachers to concerned friends—with the skills to recognise challenges, provide initial support, and know when professional help is needed.

Dr. Kenneth shares how this approach was born from seeing the gaps in traditional mental health systems, particularly in communities where stigma prevents people from seeking professional help. 

By training key opinion leaders who already have established trust, the initiative creates accessible pathways to mental health support that bypass traditional barriers. 

The course cleverly adapts global standards from the World Health Organisation while contextualising them for Nigerian and African cultural realities.

Perhaps most compelling is the challenge to the "saviour complex" that often accompanies mental health work. 

By spreading knowledge widely, the initiative removes the mystique around mental wellness and empowers communities toward collective healing. 

As Dr. Kenneth emphasises, often the most powerful thing we can offer someone in distress isn't expertise or answers—it's our complete presence, our active listening, and our willingness to simply be there.

Ready to become part of this mental health revolution? Follow Mindfully with Tumishe for special access to this certification course and discover how you might become the reason someone holds on just a little bit longer.

Transcript

Welcome to Mindful YouTube

Speaker 1 1:07

oh, wow, okay. So I wish y'all had we get a preview to what was happening before I pressed on report. This is my first virtual reporting in a very long time and I'm grateful for the person who is on the other side of the camera. Welcome to Mindful YouTube here, where we learn the myths, we rise the rules and make room for everybody every day, people like you and me, to not just survive the noises in our minds or in our hearts, but to support each other through these noises. And you know well, even in the world of mental health, everybody's a mental health advocate, you see. But if you're in that world and you're very active in the world, know that we just rounded up the world mental health month in may and the world segued into the men's mental health month. Um, which you all know is very, very good to my heart, men's mental health is extremely dirty me, not just because I have a son, not just because I have a husband or brothers, but because a handful of my friends are male and, yes, even the stories that make me so.

Speaker 1 2:34

Today we're going beyond talking and collecting stories. The story with Dary Dary last week, or a person leaving with is on disability he's a polar survivor and then got married to a supposed abled person who then turns out to be bipolar. Interesting, interesting story. If you missed that I'll link that in the show notes and you can go have fun. But today I have with with me for the second time Dr Kenneth.

Mental Health as Health, Not Illness

Speaker 1 3:21

Thank you, thank you. Thank you for the fake clap. Oh, my goodness, if you don't know who Kenneth is, you've heard his name over and, over and over again in the what almost 18 episodes that we've had. If I've had a conversation with someone and I'm talking about my therapist, I'm talking about Kenneth, I'm talking about Moji. So, yeah, kenneth, so yeah, kenneth is back in the studio. You know that this team of people, these amazing people there's Kenneth, there's Muji and there's Oluji I will hold my hands through that interesting 2020 up until now, and together.

Speaker 1 4:03

Today, we're not just talking about mental health. Well, it's Mindful, uj, it's mindful. Shall we talk about this? But we're going to explore an initiative that the healthy mind foundation is bringing forth to help those of us who are very interested in holding other people's hands. You know, they say that some people might need to get a degree to heal others, or to wear a white coat, and I know a lot of people, my brother inclusive, who have the white coat syndrome. He's always okay until he gets to the hospital. I didn't know how that happens, but so come closer, let us begin. How are you? Because both of us are good, just here, let us dance.

Speaker 2 4:51

Well, let us play small because before the matter I think I'm supposed to act serious yeah, okay let the games begin. Okay, so how am I? Let me start. Like the white good guys, I'm well oriented in in time, place and person. No nick tag, no palo, no dolo. Okay, now to the answer to your question.

Speaker 1 5:14

All right, now it's 100-level medical school.

Speaker 3 5:16

Okay.

Speaker 2 5:19

I'm fine. I'm predominantly fine because when people say how are you and you say I'm good, it's probably pedantic or complimentary. It's really not the answer to the question. Every now and then I accidentally truly answer I am fine today, but there are days when I'm not as fine, days when I'm better. It's a spectrum and that's. That answer segues into what I'm pushing these days Before I was predominantly into healing the sick and curing those who were broken or who felt broken or who were able to admit the brokenness that all of us have. But the gospel is changing slightly. From a mental financial perspective I'm not asking for money, in case you are afraid the perspective is looking at mental health for what it is as health, not ill health when we talk about wealth.

Speaker 2 6:20

Some people have very little, some people have just enough and some people have a lot, and some people who have a lot today have little tomorrow. Pretty much it's about the spectrum moving from mental poverty to mental sustenance, to mental abundance. That's the new gospel. So right now I'm in a state of mental abundance, but every now and then I Borrow me some. If you make me an offer enough I can't refuse.

Speaker 1 6:52

All right, go ahead, yeah, yeah, so pretty much that's.

Speaker 2 6:55

That's what it is. I am doing quite well today. It's exciting seeing you after a while. Yeah, no matter how you feel emotionally, you always have this enthusiasm there, this spark in your eyes, even in the midst of darkness, that you bring to. It's called an infectious personality.

Speaker 1 7:12

Interesting Because I was going to ask you that. You know, considering the conversation we had before, you know we pressed record does this feel full circle to you, like the Tumishe you met in 2020 and this Tumishe that you spoke to today or spoke with not to? How does it feel for you, knowing that you were there at the beginning?

Speaker 2 7:45

one of the reasons why I'm a psychiatrist and a psychotherapist is because I have an unusual way of seeing things. In my opinion, you haven't changed one bit yet. You've moved through different states of being, but, but from the very first day, I saw you, I saw you, I saw you. So there are layers of pain, there are layers of anguish, there are layers of confusion and unadapted ways of viewing situations, but I missed all of that. I could always see you. I could always see, even in the middle of tears. I could always see your smile. I could always see the in the middle of tears, I could always see your smile. I could always see the glow in your eyes and that person was the person I was always talking to. I was trying to find her and help you find her. I was trying to get you, more importantly, to see that version of you that I saw, even though you couldn't see her at the moment. So I never, ever, not for a split second, couldn't see you.

Person-Centered Approach to Healing

Speaker 1 8:44

Even split second couldn't see you this is what happens when we're actually guy, we're not in session, like yeah, my table stay, I'm not on your table okay, all right.

Speaker 2 8:57

So so let me act like I'm here too so this is it.

Speaker 2 9:00

Yeah, yeah, go ahead when I used to train residents at yaba, I would always say to them that it was a crime for an individual to walk into your room and not be unfollowed in the aura of calmness, peace and joy that every psychiatrist should bring. I said you could be a neurologist and send the same medications. You could be a general practitioner and deal the same drugs, send the same medications. You could be a general practitioner and deal the same drugs. But if you chose to be a psychiatrist, you're a behavioral scientist. But to be truly authentic in that role, you need to see with the eyes of hope. You need to see people from the perspective of their strengths, not their weaknesses. You need to recognize the weaknesses or see the strength in the person, because I'm human, like any other person. If I focus on your weaknesses, then I'm paralyzed by the pain.

Speaker 2 9:50

There are some neurons in the brain called mirror neurons. You see somebody frowning. You instantly feel some degree of sadness. If you're a psychopath, you don't feel that, yes, but most people feel something. It's called mirror neurons. You're laughing.

Speaker 1 10:05

Yeah, psychopaths. I think everybody has a bit of psychopathy in them.

Speaker 2 10:10

Yeah, it can make me angry. I'm very psychopathic at the person that made me angry. Then, when you're crying after making me angry, I don't feel pity for you. I feel like I'm doing my own back. It's revenge, so yeah, but the thing is it's easier to to give hope. When you see hope, it's more genuine.

Speaker 1 10:29

That's why yeah they have not changed okay, I hear you, I hear you I hear what you're saying, I mean you, you've grown in many ways.

Speaker 2 10:40

I mean you've gotten to see you better and embrace you, not hide you. So you have changed, but the fundamental brightness that you bring has never, ever been lost on me.

Speaker 1 12:29

Oh, thank you very much. So let's now go to, before we go to, what you know, what we're talking about today and because of what you just said, you know, one of the one of the first things that you and I had to settle back in 2020 was medication or no medication. I believe that healing could come in several ways, and you did soon. But as that changed for you especially you saying now that the gospel has moved from mental ill health to seeing mental health as health, when are you now? Do you still banter with your patients? Do you still want to be treated? Is it still within the pattern? Somehow they want to be treated is still within the pattern.

Speaker 2 13:25

There are a few changes as I grow. The last time I saw you, I was a psychiatrist who had trained in psychotherapy and rehabilitation psychiatry, but now I have a doctorate in psychology, which I bagged in October. Yes, I'm addicted to school. Thank you for joining the rest of the world to judge me, but it is the truth. So what has changed now is, being a psychiatrist, you, you're heavily invested in psychopathology. People don't come to you until they are ill, but being a psychologist, people come to you when they want to grow. So my gospel has changed from the perspective of growing just one end of the divide to growing all ends of the divide. So those who need to grow from ill health to wellness, yes, but those who want to get to sustained resilience, those who want to get to peak performance I'm all in About medication. It's really about the stage of health. It's also about the individual. I'm more person-centered now than I used to be because I was a doctor who believed in the medical model. I still believe it has its value, but I recognize value in the person-centered approach and this is how I share it.

Speaker 2 14:41

The CEO of a company, for example, where I worked a couple of years back, was an accountant but was a mental health company. He set his goals for the organization and he knew nothing about how to spell psychosis, mental illness, nah. But he set the goals and it was the job of every professional to get those goals attained. And you had a right to resign. But if you chose to stay there, it was your job to get it done. It's the same case with the individual who is in therapy or who seeks my help. He or she is the CEO of their lives and I am just a professional who gets them their goals. If their goals don't align with mine, I can step aside. But as long as I choose to be part of the team helping the CEO get their goals, I must respect it.

Speaker 2 15:31

I have a very strange case that I share. There was this lady who had been in and out of psychiatric facilities for the last 20 years, floridly psychotic in terms of. She was hearing voices, she had delusions, she got into fights due to so. She had auditory hallucinations, tactile hallucinations, persecutory delusions, aggressive behavior. Of course she couldn't keep a job and I asked what are your goals for treatment? You would expect her to say I don't hear those voices anymore. She's an African-American lady and she said to me I want to buy houses for my kids.

Speaker 2 16:11

The medical doctor in me would say madam, are you all right? House? You're nowhere. But what I said to her, now that I'm more person-centeredred oriented, I said fantastic. And this is how the journey went. I'm like okay, so you want to get a house? How do you get a house, in your opinion?

The Healthy Mind Foundation Initiative

Speaker 2 16:28

I'm going to give you some money. I'm going to get some house a good house like fantastic. What kind of house do you want? Like a three-bedroom for all my kids Like fantastic. What do you want? A high-end neighborhood Like fantastic, okay. But to get a house, you need to buy it. What do you use to buy a house? I'm going to give you some money Fantastic. But how do you get money? You're going to get a job, but I hate my jobs. They always hate me at the job. They want to come after me, like yeah, okay, okay, okay. So you need to get a job. How do you get a job? You need to apply for a job.

Speaker 2 17:06

So we basically went up to the point where she remembered that when she took her medication she was less angry and she stayed longer at the job. After the entire journey, we had an agreement that we're going to buy the houses for her kids or we're going to start with her attending therapy sessions, taking medication, just so that the voices will stop talking as much, just for them to go necessarily, so that she can get the job, so that she can get money and then she can buy a house for her kids. She still hasn't bought that house, but she does have a job and she's kept the job for the last five years.

Speaker 1 17:45

Oh.

Speaker 2 17:46

Yes, she's not constantly in therapy or medication management anymore. She calls the GIST because she doesn't call to get help and we're like you're just calling to GIST. We're not a GIST in center and we can have like 10 minutes but by patients are waiting literally who need help. So that's the person-centered approach where she's grown from needing help to sustenance to abundance. She has a job. She still doesn't have a house for her kids because they are way wealthier than she is, but but I I embraced her goals and she embraced my strategy. So that's that has changed a bit. And she needed medication, so she got some.

Speaker 1 18:28

You know I always wear my eyes on medications, but I still take them because I don't have a choice sometimes. Sometimes it's full disclosure I must say if you need medication and you are listening to this I think I'll beg you, please do take medication. Dr Kenneth, and I go way back as a patient, as my therapist. And this guy you guys saw what he did at the beginning of the show yeah, the other person is Munchie. They will just make you talk, talk, talk anyways, but it's fun and you are yourself when you are with these therapists both of them and I tell you, sushree, that they make embracing, embracing mental health as health, as health and not some ill health thing. Okay, so let's move forward now. Um, people like you, people like me, of course, because, um, I remember when back I think I was 2020 or 2021 when you asked me just the same, just same uh strategy that you used with this um client of yours, when you asked me what? And I said I just wanted, I didn't want people in pain anymore. I didn't like, I wanted to educate people and you encouraged me to. I think you said I should take my um. No, not. I think you said if I can't write it. I should tap into my strength as a writer, my strength as a radio presenter and of course that birthed my influence in Michigan and live it mindfully.

Speaker 1 20:31

Those of us who are trying to grapple and to break down the academic of mental health questions, enter the certificate that you're teaching us that, because that's what's just enough. All right, so how, before we get into the course, what are the basic things? I know what to do, you know, but I need other people who like, who are in this world with me now Because, of course, contrary to my personality, I'm not going out a lot. I'm going to use speeches and all that. So I meet people daily. What are the basicest things? Of course, you know there's no one like that at me. What are the basicest things that we could do to help people around us? How do we identify people?

Breaking the Savior Complex

Speaker 2 21:18

the basic thing, in my opinion is to be human being human is is to be present.

Speaker 2 22:30

Being present is to be mindful, and being mindful is to empty your mind of anything else but what you're doing at the moment. So mindfulness has the word full, but it's the fullness of your presence. So, basically, to be filled with something, you need to be empty of anything else but that thing. Al Rogers, who is one of the fathers of person-centered, always talked about different listening styles, and studies have shown that 86% of healing is dependent on connection. Only 14% is dependent on technique and the rest of the pretty things they teach us in school, things they teach us in school. And if you have all the technique on earth and you don't have the ability to connect, it's a waste of time. So the basic, or the most fundamental, or your words, the basicest thing is to be there. I liked it actually. That's why I brought it. Is to be there. I liked it actually. That's why I brought it. Is to be there, is to be there.

Speaker 2 23:45

You don't have to have the answers, you don't have to have the solution. You don't have to know what to say, when to say. You don't have to say, you just have to. There are three fundamental psychological needs of human beings. They are competence, autonomy and relatedness. I use the acronym card, that's why I remember it several years after competence, autonomy and relatedness. And the greatest craving, irrespective of your status, is relatedness, and my experience in mental health is that there are two core issues the feeling of hopelessness and, more importantly, the feeling of loneliness. And the solution to loneliness is relatedness. And to be related in terms of the connection, you don't require a degree, you require attention, presence, mindfulness. The most basic thing is to be present.

Speaker 1 24:56

Okay, and I love Carl Rogers, by the way. Was that? Was the that was blowing the kiss? That's what you saw. Um, I love carl rogers. I love carl young, anywho, so I'm going to add that to my toolkit competence, autonomy and relatedness thank you for.

Speaker 1 25:18

So let's talk about this course. What were the gaps that you saw in everyday people? You know the way everyday people respond to mental health. That birthed you to put together this course. Is that sentence correct? No, it's not correct. So what gaps did you see that made you burst? Yes, that made you burst the scores? Yeah, better.

Speaker 2 25:52

Okay, so I'll start by attacking you. I'll attack on you. The goal of language is communication, not structure, but I know you won't let it go because of your education.

Speaker 1 26:05

Thank you very much. Go ahead. Yeah, thank you for understanding too, but you know I would not let it go. But let's go.

Speaker 2 26:15

My story for developing this course is quite interesting. I started off being a graduate student in psychology and I needed to start to study about depression for emerging adults. I reached out to a couple of communities and I'm Afrocentric, no apologies. I eventually found school. I spoke to most of them there for my qualitative studies. Boom, boom, boom. By the end of the day, I noticed there was a criminally high rate of depression and a decent dose of suicide.

Speaker 3 26:50

All buried in silence.

Speaker 2 26:54

At the end of my dissertation I got offered a job to be the dean of the college and I agreed because I wanted to help. However, I do have a criminally busy lifestyle here in the US. I run an outpatient mental health clinic with thousands of lives dependent on me, so I struggled with the ability to provide the services because I was supposed to train people in the Bible college because they understood that most people from my study went to their pastors and preachers for mental health services in a myriad of ways. Some of these pastors and preachers were honestly destructive and I used the word honest because they aimed to help but they were destroyed. There's some degree of hopelessness they shared by saying you were sinning, by having emotional turmoil. It means you are not connected with God enough and some of those creative terms that were birthed from ignorance. And there were a few who were able to help accidentally, but none of them had true knowledge of what they were supposed to do. I combined my desire to help them become more competent healthcare professionals through their pastoral ministry to close the gap that I couldn't myself Because, like I said, it's 6% of a disconnection.

Speaker 2 28:18

I speak English a certain way. I have an accent that is different from the Azagundubi, all Africans. They have this trust that spirituality gives between parishioner and preacher, so they really had the connection. All I needed to give them was the technique and voila, it was going to be magic, but I didn't have the time to do it. Eventually I reached out to one of my guys, Dario from Lyle, who to do it.

Speaker 2 28:43

Eventually I reached out to one of my guys who used to be a designer that became an AI guy. I had this chat with him. I said how fun, can you run this thing for me? The next thing he produced, I was like whoa, you solved my problem and that was how the course was created. The course was created largely for key opinion leaders to disseminate the gospel of mental health and provide services to reach places that I couldn't reach physically or emotionally with all my degrees of. Somebody walks into the room, like you said, your brother has white coat, hypertension or white coats anxiety yeah so, once you walk into a room, you see a psychiatrist, psychologist, and you're african.

Speaker 2 29:21

Stigma is always going to give you a job, but your pastor, your preacher, in the confines of your church, nobody says anything about you walking up to the pastor. If anything, you are celebrated. So I was. My goal was to use key opinion leaders to close the gap that I couldn't close because I couldn't be everywhere every time and I didn't have the emotional currency to connect with many people, especially those in low resource settings. That was what birthed my desire to do this, and then, once I found out, yeah, I could do a lot for me, it it then became way more scalable. Here we are.

Recognition, Intervention, and Referral

Speaker 1 30:02

Thank you for that, and thank you, and I think that I might be wrong. I don't think I'm wrong, but I think that we always burst, or we are more innovative when we are connected with our partners, when we're like we said um. When we're like we said earlier, well, during the conversation that when the story, when you can't relate to the story differently than any other person could. So let's get to this, because for I know that a lot of people and including me, with these resources like this, because we are in Nigeria, for example, anyone who can articulate their thoughts well or articulate an idea well, is generally seen as some demigod. You know what I'm talking about. How is this course going to help someone be meaningful with their giving and not becoming some sort of rescuer or wearing the savior complex? I'm just being Nigerian, I'm sorry.

Speaker 2 31:29

Yeah. So the first thing about savior complex in this context is you become a savior because you have superior skills or abilities. Right, that's why you can save your average Chinese, so that you do not fight Chinese like we used to save you when you were younger. Yeah, we're trying to democratize saving. So the reason why psychiatrists, psychologists, social workers, therapists of different sorts are savior-like is because there's such a rarity in this sacred sanctity of mental health.

Speaker 2 32:07

Professionalism and even those who don't have the gift of the gap, the gift of the heart to connect, are still held in high esteem, which is a societal delusion. But we are breaking the chains. We are breaking. We are releasing into the environment, releasing the power I didn't know this part. Okay, we are recording, but everybody will be alright. We release the power to everyday people to become mental health providers by equipping them with the skills. Everybody will now become a saviour. Who wants to become a saviour? If the saving sanctity is made open, the temple, the veil of the temple is torn. You can worship God in truth and spirit, wherever you are.

Speaker 1 33:03

The church is yours. When did you become a priest, though?

Speaker 2 33:07

It just applies.

Speaker 1 33:08

This is your. Preaching is preaching.

Speaker 2 33:11

Hallelujah. Ladies and gentlemen, look no further.

Speaker 1 33:14

It's time for offering oh okay, Offering. It's praying time oh okay, Off-link In break time. In break time, Go ahead.

Speaker 2 33:25

Kenneth. So the goal is really to make so many people have the skills to provide mental health services that the severe thing is no longer in existence.

Speaker 1 33:37

In existence. Okay, all right, kenneth, as you continue this conversation, because before we give up links and all of that and how people can get in touch or get connected with the course you see I'm doing the card get connected with the course what does this course equip people to do and not to do? I think that's much more important, not to do.

Speaker 2 34:05

Well, the course equips people to recognize and intervene and refer. Like we mentioned earlier, one of the core challenges with mental health disorders is the feeling of loneliness, but when you feel seen and heard, that's the recognition piece. The course also gives you the ability to intervene using what we call psychosocial techniques. Psychological techniques, problem solving therapy, amongst others, and meeting social needs. Somebody's largely depressed because they are hungry and broke. What if you help them get a job?

Speaker 2 34:47

Not everything requires deep-seated therapy or lying down on a couch, like Sigmund Freud would like. And then, when it gets to a certain level, you want to refer. But a lot of times, with early intervention there is decreased progression towards the other side. So what you shouldn't do if you're not a medical professional, you shouldn't become a drug dealer by prescribing medications you don't fully understand. But the course would also help you understand some medication side effects and how to recognize what people are taking if it's becoming an issue for them.

Speaker 2 35:24

So what not to do is not to give information you don't know about, not to become who you're not. You're not suddenly going to become a psychiatrist and you can actually heal more people than most psychiatrists. I can guarantee that because studies have proven that people who are trained with courses like this actually provide a higher level of success compared to psychiatrists. It doesn't feel good to say, but they trained some elderly ladies in Zimbabwe and their healing rate was way higher than any psychiatrist multiplied by a factor of three. So you actually can accomplish a lot by staying in your area of competence. Another thing the course also teaches you is to empathize, not sympathize. Empathy.

Speaker 3 36:21

You connect.

Speaker 2 36:22

You understand how it feels to be in person. Don't take the shoes and wear them on your feet. It's not your shoe. That would be stealing sentiments.

Speaker 3 36:29

Yeah.

Speaker 2 36:30

And then both of you are crying. We don't know who to heal them. We now have two patients instead of one. So empathize, don't sympathize, refer when it's beyond you and don't become a drug dealer, because if you don't have a license and you share drugs.

Speaker 3 36:43

You are a drug dealer, that's the summary oh my goodness, oh my goodness.

Speaker 1 36:51

So it's amazing. You talk about empathy. I was somewhere, like I said, I give a lot of talks and we're talking about how with a group of journalists and we're talking about and I'm sure you are going to be very happy about this because it was of speaking with journalists and we're talking about how not to report suicide and, um, of course, uh, there were a lot of questions and, of course, because I had a personal story around that it was easy for me to be able to say, okay, you can't use this. Yeah, you can read the papers and say they say you should not tell them how you should not, and all of that. But I'm telling you, as a survivor, that if you tell, if I'm listening to the news and you're telling me so and so and so can help me fulfill my edition. All right, that's what's you, that's what it means to say that, oh, so, so and so person to their lives with so, so and so and um, we got to empathy. So they were like the question was so, how do we sympathize? And I said you can't sympathize, you can't even the empathy even is.

Speaker 1 38:07

And this is how I define empathy, this is me. I don't know about you guys, but this is how I define empathy. I can understand the feeling. I can feel it, just like you said. Even if both of us wore size 12 wide, which the the anatomy of our feet is different, the shoes are going to feel different. Empathy then becomes means the empathizer being wise enough to listen to the person and allowing them to lead me on how to heal them. All right, um, that is the way I see empathy, and yeah, but I think is it's more. It's more like required. Now you understand what they're going through, but are you wise enough, are you brave enough to allow this person to actually tell you how, what healing means to them, and not you projecting what you think healing is to them?

Speaker 2 39:11

Yeah, brilliant. There was a lot of silence.

Speaker 3 39:16

Yeah.

Speaker 2 39:18

I think many of my friends need to hear this. In my profession, it's healing is from within. In this domain, in surgery, I can cut you and paste you, but in this business of psychiatry, healing is from within. You can connect when invited yeah, but they have to heal from within you.

Balancing Cultural Context with Clinical Truth

Speaker 2 39:39

You can connect when invited yeah but they have to heal from within. So just being available for the invite, knowing that if you're invited to the party you would attend, that in itself brings about healing, because that takes away the loneliness. That meets the psychological need for relatedness.

Speaker 1 40:05

Just the awareness that somebody's here and they care is soothing in itself.

Speaker 2 40:09

Suicide.

Speaker 1 40:10

Suicide yeah.

Speaker 2 40:12

What about it? You might see someone in the closet. I debate whether or not to say this. I debate whether or not to say this. My dissertation for my doctorate in psychology was on emerging adults and it was dedicated to my first cousin who died by suicide. He was 21. So that there's a suicide piece on this cause is about depression, but he was a year ago, he was 21. So the point is that part is dedicated to him and it's one of the things that motivated me to do this, because the stigma around mental health. I didn't know a lot about his challenges.

Speaker 2 41:08

Yeah, he was much younger than me and it's hard to talk about it for anybody. It had to understand it for many people. It had to understand it for many people. So if I had I'm not blaming myself, but if someone or me had educated their parents using an AI tool in the comfort of their homes to identify, to intervene, to refer, maybe he would be here, maybe not, I know not. Bones to identify, to intervene, to refer Maybe he would be here, maybe not, I know not what.

Speaker 2 41:44

The path of destiny is but I know what I can do about it, and that's why my first course is on depression and it has a suicide component dedicated to my cousin my cousin yeah so freedom.

Speaker 1 42:00

I am yeah, so freedom.

Speaker 3 42:02

I understand.

Speaker 1 42:03

Yeah, yeah. So it's interesting that you know you speak about your cousin and I speak about him with such deep respect and responsibility. You know the sense of responsibility and respect. Let's talk about how this cause intends to balance cultural sensitivity with clinical truth. You and I, you know, and I I like, I say I guess, like I say to you when we're having conversations and all that, people still look at me funny when I come out to say I live with bipolar affective disorder. You know, I still get that. You know the shock, all beings that they're getting used to it now. But how do we get to that point? Is this course going to you going to look at balancing our cultural sensitivity, clinical juice and our beliefs around mental health questions?

Speaker 2 43:13

I hope it will. I'm extremely confident that it would. I'm also conducting research with the content that I created done to make sure my goals are accomplished and when I say my, basically people like you and I and the rest of the world that are ready for the mental health revolution. First of all, the Federal Ministry of Health did a good job. They took the MHGAP it's called Mental Health Gap Action Program Intervention Guide, created by the World Health Organization Action Program Intervention Guide, created by the World Health Organization. But the Federal Ministry of Health contextualized it for the African population, the Nigerian population specifically. So they did a lot of the work for me before doing that.

Speaker 2 44:07

But also the Dairi and Dairiio externs also used AI to fuse Nigerian context into it. So a lot of my words are textbook words, yes, but we have merged context-relevant topics. We use Nigerian names. We talk about real stories in the African context. We talk about real stories in the Nigerian context. We talk about barriers. We talk about real stories in the Nigerian context. We talk about barriers. We talk about challenges. We fuse it. But the best part of it is we're trying to create an app that is an edtech app, basic educational technology app. It has a myriad of courses within it those for treatment, those for growth, motivational, full spectrum of health. So it's easy for you to have it on your phone and nobody knows if you're using for the mental health, for the, for the azure training, yeah, yeah, so it.

Speaker 2 45:10

It's. It's so many causes. But if you want to find mental health as you go in and the beauty of that is, it's self-serving. I have used this to treat patients who, in quotes, were not willing to pay or were not willing to accept. So what I do now is this I have friends who have depression, who don't like the diagnosis, I don't like to acknowledge it. So we found this scam. I give them the work. I say it's not completely done because we're almost at the final phase. Please help me review it. So while they are reviewing it, they are seeing themselves and getting treatment for free. And we can all lie that you don't have depression yeah, but you have shot, you are.

Speaker 2 45:57

But we can't share it with ourselves, which is good enough for me. I'm not looking for a confession, I'm not depressed, I'm looking for emancipation, because people can find these things in the confines of their home. They can break away. But the stigma angle too. A lot of religious leaders have agreed to partner with us because that's a heavy bank of stigma. If those guys, if we break into that ministry, then the ministry will break into the rest of the society, the way you're using ministry, though.

Speaker 2 46:31

Ministry, really Okay, ministry, I hear you the ministry is moving, so we also intend to break into the school ministry. Okay, ministry, I hear you, the ministry is moving. We also intend to break into the school ministry by reaching out to teachers and prefects in schools. Our goal is to reach out to key opinion leaders in society so that they can become mental health advocates, advertently or inadvertently, because they then understand they can capture, recognize and intervene before it gets to. So we are dismantling stigma by focusing on key opinion leaders who basically are from the critical mass of how we think and behave and we don't need people to call the names. I'm not interested in a diagnosis, I'm interested in treatment, I'm interested in cooks, I don't care what you call it. Vibing the wrong way, I don't know. Jesus, have chosen my ment.

Speaker 1 47:24

Whatever you call it, anything you choose, I mean language is not important to me well, it's important to me and you know. But I understand what you said.

Speaker 2 47:34

It's important to me to me Just do it.

Speaker 1 47:36

Just do it yeah, so how can people sign up?

Speaker 2 47:40

People can sign up. I'm going to give you a link for the early phase. I will create a specific password because it's really really early phase and there are a lot of discussions that I had with you about the product. But we'll create a specific link for your listeners. But we'll create a specific link for your listeners. They can go and see the early versions and when we eventually release the full versions it will come at a cost, but but your audience will get it for free because basically there's feedback.

Speaker 1 48:11

Yeah, okay thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you. So I don't keep you because I know it's too early, I know I'm very time zone challenged, so let me not keep you. If Kenneth Uyje could put one tool in everybody's pocket, something they could use to support a friend themselves, a colleague, what would that tool be? Please don't say listening why? Because you said that twice, just kidding. Say it, let's go.

Speaker 2 48:54

What would that tool be?

The Power of Active Listening

Speaker 1 49:05

Active listening. Active listening, you need a version of it. Right, listen, I hear you.

Speaker 2 49:08

I hear you, yeah listen, just just listen, because for me, I think and I've learned that relatedness is the key to solving most mental health challenges. Once the person doesn't feel alone, the person finds hope, even if not in themselves, but from the person who is with them. So, active listening, really, really listening, and I think it's something we should practice every single day. I could also tell you something else for creativity's sake mindfulness, which in my case, would be practicing concentration. Practicing concentration meaning don't do two things at the same time, which basically I shouldn't say to a nigerian mother, because I don't know if people believe in doing one thing at a time, because multitasking is a virtue.

Speaker 1 49:58

No, no, no, it's not. I can't work for them. My family teases me endlessly my children, my son. Are you a mother at all? Because I can only do one thing at a time. Don't stress me, I'm not even kidding. Don't stress me. I'm always going at them. How can you be watching tv on your phone? Or you're watching, you're on the phone or you are working. No, no, why, why, why.

Speaker 2 50:29

I'm glad you're the one saying this, because I keep telling women like I mean mother, you can't understand, you are mansplaining. I mean mother, you cannot. I'm like gosh, you don't do that as well when you're doing I mean mother, you cannot. I'm like gosh, you don't do that as well when you're doing two things at the same time, no matter how awesome you are.

Speaker 1 50:42

No matter how awesome you are, no matter how awesome. I made a mistake this morning. I was trying to shuttle for the next episode and right in the middle of that I picked. I replied a message Like everything was on my system you know how those things have become and I replied a message on my system and I completely lost track. I completely lost track. I just said, okay, you know what. I just put my phone on do not disturb and said, no, I'm finishing this Like I never could. I didn't know how to multitask. I just put my phone on do not disturb and said, no, I'm finishing this Like I never could. I didn't know how to multitask.

Speaker 1 51:20

I didn't know people would do it, but I believe it's a myth.

Speaker 2 51:24

Personally, it's multi-monotasking. There's nothing like multi. I mean you can breathe and walk, but there are centers of the brain that do one thing and the center that's doesn't use the word pay attention. They say pay attention because attention comes at a cost that you must pay. So if there's one, thing that I would say people should do in their own lives for their own healing is focus, pay attention. When you're taking a bath, when the water strikes your skin, feel the sensation Be there, just be present.

Speaker 2 52:09

It takes practice, because we spend most of our lives practicing distraction. I want to explore that.

Speaker 1 52:16

But I want to explore that. But I want to also because we do. I was saying at a place, somewhere, that we we were trained or raised on how to be happy. We know the expression, the response we want to give when something happy or joyous happens, but we don't know how to navigate the valleys. We don't know because nobody taught us how to. So when the bad, the curveball, comes, because we do not have any tool, because we do not know how to emotionally respond to that, then it throws us off and then we're trying to find it and desperately looking for happy again. What if? What if that curveball was just to slow you down so that you can truly understand what is going on? Going on on the heels, um, yeah, what's that?

Speaker 2 53:32

be there just there.

Speaker 1 53:35

Yeah, you're like oh yeah, I did a good job. Yeah, she's better now. Yeah, I don't see it as a job. I see as a person oh yeah, yeah, this is not she's good, not, I did a good job.

Speaker 2 53:49

She's good. She's vibing i'm'm trying to Gen Z, she's vibing.

Speaker 1 53:58

Yeah, I'm vibing to this mental health thing. Sock with her.

Speaker 2 54:03

Word.

Speaker 1 54:06

Oh, thank you so much, dr Kenneth. Like he said at the end of this, I'm going to play a snippet from the introduction, really, that you shared with me, just so people get an idea how it's gonna be. And, of course, uh, you're listening. Please, please, please, just follow us on my flute to miche. Um, are you still on social media? I ask for a specific reason. I used to know social media. I can explain so how would that?

Speaker 1 54:48

reach you though I'm on LinkedIn. Okay, linkedin Dr Kenneth Uyj On LinkedIn. You'll find him there and I'm sure you'll find the details of the course there. But one short way to get it follow Mindfully with Tumishe and you'll get a link and, like you said, special codes with that. Thank you very much for waking up this early to speak with me. I appreciate it, dr Kenneth.

Speaker 2 55:15

My pleasure.

Speaker 1 55:15

Do you have any final? Okay, so I'm so, yoruba. I've been struggling with this for like five episodes now. I can't say to people to say their final words, no final thoughts.

Speaker 2 55:30

Even that sounds very morbid to me what's the last thing you're going to say before you end? Before we end the show.

Speaker 1 55:38

The conclusion of this matter. What is the final conclusion? Concluding thoughts yeah, ah, yeah, that sounded better. Sorry, I'm so Yoruba, forgive me.

Speaker 2 55:52

No forgiveness required. That's the beauty of who you are.

Speaker 1 55:56

Yeah, it's all right, okay.

Speaker 2 55:58

so final words, the final statement for this conversation, before we go off the podcast, because we are still going to just be, present. The future is unknown. The past is gone.

Final Thoughts and Closing

Speaker 1 56:18

The present is the gift be present so I'll say, um, I'm not a psychologist. I might have taken some courses, but I can't go to graduate school, not now, maybe later, but I feel so old. But but I'm not that old, though, I'm very young, just you know. But you don't need all the answers, just the willingness to ask the right questions. You don't need to fix anyone, sometimes Just being there, just like Kenneth has said, is more than enough. If today's conversation said something in you, just take it as a note. You are more powerful, more useful than you've been told, and the journey of helping others begins not with a lecture, but with what Dr Kenneth Listening, abhi, with listening, you can learn more about the certification actively listening actively listening again, the certification course, the show notes, and if you know anyone who needs this conversation, share it.

Speaker 1 57:28

You might just be the reason they're holding on just a little bit longer. Until next time, stay mindful, mindful, stay present, stay kind, love yourself, love your neighbor, love your country. Above all of this, love God. He is the essence of your being. I am Uluwatsuni she Ola Dakwo Hukum.

Speaker 3 58:03

Did you know that one in four people worldwide will experience a mental health challenge at some point in their lives? Imagine being the one person who can make a difference in someone's life by just listening, offering support and providing resources when they need it the most. I am pleased to introduce to you a comprehensive mental health training course inspired by the World Health Organization WHO Mental Health Gap Action Program, mhgap Framework, and designed specifically for non-specialists.