Beyond the Silence of Shame

What if the most powerful force holding you back isn't external criticism but the silent voice within that whispers "I'm not enough"? In this vulnerable and illuminating conversation, we unpack the complex emotion of shame—that intensely painful feeling of believing we're fundamentally flawed and therefore unworthy of love and belonging.

Drawing inspiration from Brené Brown's groundbreaking work, we explore the crucial distinction between guilt ("I did something bad") and shame ("I am bad"), revealing how this subtle shift profoundly impacts our identity and relationships. Through personal stories, we examine how childhood experiences with authority figures, cultural expectations, and religious contexts create shame templates that follow us into adulthood. You'll hear raw accounts of how seemingly small interactions—like being repeatedly corrected by someone other than a parent, or seeing "intelligent but talks too much" on a report card—can create lasting patterns of self-doubt and silence.

The conversation takes a fascinating turn as we discuss how shame manifests in our self-perception around abilities, particularly in areas like business acumen, where perceived deficiencies easily transform from "I'm not good at this specific skill" to "I'm fundamentally inadequate." We uncover how shame thrives in secrecy and silence, and why finding safe relationships where we can share vulnerably becomes essential for healing.

Whether you've consciously struggled with shame or are just beginning to recognize its influence in your life, you'll leave with practical wisdom for moving forward: affirming that shame is human but not where we want to live, naming it rather than being defined by it, and approaching ourselves with the same compassion we'd offer a friend. Connect with us on social media to share your reflections on the journal prompts: What part of your story deserves compassion today? And who can you share your story with, knowing they would respond with empathy rather than judgment?

Transcript

Introduction to Shame Conversation

Speaker 1 1:01

Hey, mindful Partners, how are you? I hope you're doing well and I hope you're still, you know, basking in the I hope, euphoria, understanding that came with the last four episodes that were extremely, in my opinion, very reflective and, to be honest, I also got feedback saying how reflective they were. Talked about evolution, using the enoki and butterfly story, we talked about fear, we talked about grief, um, and, of course, uh, last last week, I shared my thoughts on fear and adversity, so that four weeks of Solaron ends today. Don't worry, of course, when you know when, when I have, um, what's it called now? Uh, run of solos, uh, on Mindflow Team, I always love to come back with one of my favorites, bodala hi hello Bordola Hi.

Speaker 1 2:28

Hello, you like hearing your voice, we know.

Speaker 2 2:32

I'm going to change my voice. It sounds so nice. It's good to be back.

Speaker 1 2:37

It's good to see you with hair.

Speaker 2 2:41

That's one of the reasons I'm confused.

Speaker 1 2:43

You're confused. Why are you confused about that?

Speaker 1 2:45

I had to keep it or to leave it off, but it is what it is it is what it is all right um today I think we left off at the beginning of the year, sometime in the year, about talking about emotions and being, you know, labeling, labeling emotions appropriately and all of that. And I don't know if this is an emotion or this is a concept. We're talking Shane. Now, before we talk or have a conversation around Shane, here is a caveat between Olan or from olani. We are no brainy brown who has dedicated over two decades into sharing and researching shame and vulnerability, right, but what we're trying to do today is to break it down as much as we can, especially for those who have not heard of Brene Brown or who is going to be introduced to Brene Brown from here.

Differentiating Shame from Guilt

Speaker 1 4:01

And if you ask me what shame is, to be honest, until I started reading Brené Brown, I did not think I had shame, do you understand? And talking vulnerability, talking guilt and trying to differentiate between guilt and shame, yeah. Then I said, okay, we should take a step back and let's just feel it. And certain things came up for me before I bring you on to talk about your side of shit. Yeah, um, where I think, no, I know the first um book of hers I read was the power of vulnerability, and what came out for me, was that shame?

Speaker 1 5:05

Was that silence that lives in our bones Not necessarily in your heart? You know, your bones feel like, you know the silence that speaks yet is asking for peace? There were at the time were a million questions in my head and after listening because I listened I've not seen the book, I listened to the power of vulnerability. That's what I felt. That that's what I felt was shame. The silence that was bursted from the plethora of my stories while I continued to show up, the silence in my head that I couldn't communicate to anyone, not because I felt the guilt of whatever anybody had done to me, but because I couldn't label or articulate properly the feelings and emotions that came up for me and I needed to wear a guard. That was what came up for me. So, yeah, I started with you.

Speaker 2 6:27

Because you always bring a I think it's because of what you've been through you bring a perspective that I like to listen to, because when you said we should talk about shame, I said I don't know anything about shame, no-transcript, right. And this was because I just again, I was just thinking about what exactly is shame really in the light of the world that we live? What exactly is shame?

Speaker 1 7:25

What does it look like?

Speaker 2 7:27

You know how the society wants to shame politicians. No, I don't even think you can shame people. I think people have to. People feel the shame. You can try to put guilt, you know, present guilt to them, but shame is from the inside. You can't. That's why you can't shame a shameless man. Shame comes from a lot of things, a lot of things going on in your mind, a lot of emotions not processed with things that have happened to you and you just can't resolve. Like you said, it's that silence, that place of you don't even know what I'd say, why you want to ask or what. It's just a whole lot that you're unable to process. But what we do as a society is try to shame people overtly or covertly. Overtly is when, like I say, they try to shame single people. Why are you not married?

Speaker 2 8:29

all those questions, and it used to sound like people being genuinely interested that they care, but if you really weigh, what part of are you not getting married is care, because when you think that this person wants to be married and hasn't yet got into that place of marriage, they're already dealing with a lot. What do you do? What exactly is the point of that question or that questioning?

Speaker 1 9:06

so, you see, this is where this is where I you know, I said earlier that I didn't think I had shame because, oh, tumishe, you're this, oh yeah and so oh, tumishe, you dance a lot, oh, yeah, yeah.

Culture, Religion and Shame

Speaker 1 9:25

And so, oh, tumishe, you dance a lot, oh, yeah. And so you know, I lived in that authenticity. So no one could when I was growing up, no one could say, oh, tumishe, you're too quiet and it'll bother me. Or, tumishe, you're not business savvy. Well, it doesn't bother me, I don't know it. And because I don't know it, yeah, um, and because I don't know it, I have friends around me like there's, there's a, I have a friend, diana, and I would say you can't tell me you don't know about you, don't? You don't know numbers. Because when she did, don't sit me down and we're talking about how to navigate certain businesses and she's like how can you say you don't have businesses you get, so those kind of things don't bother me. And when, maybe that's why I said you know I do. In that sense I don't feel shame in see you, see me in my car alone and I'm playing music. Number one is loud. Number two I'm dancing by myself. I'm running in the estate in the morning. I finish my run. I will do about 10 minutes dance just walking around. It really does not bother me. What.

Speaker 1 10:35

You know what perception that would lead to shame. That one is what, when going back to Brene, said, in the Power of Vulnerability, that shame is I am bad, Guilt is I did something bad and I can change it. That was when I said, ok, I have shame, because up until that time, the feeling of inadequacy, the feeling of yeah, mostly inadequacy, I felt like I didn't or I was inadequate. Then I also felt like I didn't fit in and I didn't belong anywhere. So, oh yeah, that shame I had for a long time. Shame in the single, shame in the false people.

Speaker 2 11:40

You know why I say this is because I'm also complicit, because maybe not in that way, but I love to read, and when people say they don't read, I used to say you don't read. And you know what that does is to some people.

Speaker 2 12:03

it makes them feel bad, and you know what that does is to some people it makes them feel bad, right, and if they find enough people saying that to them, it becomes I'm bad. It's no longer I'm bad at reading, it becomes and I think that's where it moves from guilt, because people can't shame you.

Speaker 1 12:24

It has to be you personifying yourself how they have said, what they have said.

Speaker 2 12:32

With who you are, and that's when it becomes shame.

Speaker 2 12:35

It's the same thing when I say that's over the covertly we do to people that are pregnant, who we might have not pregnant, have not had children, along with things that we Yoruba people do like, along with my like. Okay, what if I want to be like, so what's the point of that? Because I can't tell if you're being genuinely honest and prayerful on my behalf or you're just being sarcastic, or Yoruba's can be very sarcastic. We have all manners of doing it and we have and we do it.

Speaker 1 13:06

Yeah, yeah, we do it.

Speaker 2 13:08

So I just began to look at. Okay, so when you say you want to shame politicians to make them change their ways, there's a place for accountability that you want them to get to. Shame doesn't allow that, Because shame holds you back from anything that wants to expose that side of you. It holds you back. So how, then, do we want to shame children? I don't know. These days I'm a sharp advocate for a lot of things that really are not my business. But I just feel that people don't know.

Speaker 1 13:52

And you have said that like a million times today.

Speaker 2 13:55

Like I said, I don't know myself, but the little that I know. I want to ensure that people who don't know as much as I do can share the knowledge that I have, share in the information that I have. If this thing that we do to children, Amoy I like, borrow right you say that of your child. For those who don't, understand.

Speaker 1 14:20

This child is recalcitrant.

Speaker 2 14:25

English doesn't do it justice.

Speaker 1 14:26

I like that. Okay, let me translate it A child that does not listen.

Speaker 2 14:34

You do that over and over and over again.

Speaker 1 14:38

That child now begins to fulfill the prophecy it becomes a self. And then you want to shame that child. It becomes a parent fulfilled prophecy, prophecy, yeah.

Speaker 2 14:52

And then you want to shame that child for not listening I. So it's me now saying we don't know a lot of things as human beings that we should know because we're very I. I have all the knowledge. I don't need more information, except it's going to profit me one way or the other. We don't.

Speaker 1 15:10

I don't think we seek knowledge for the sake of seeking knowledge if it doesn't?

Speaker 2 15:14

profit us one way or the other, we, we abscond from it. So it's for me to say I have this. How can I help people around me?

Speaker 1 15:23

how can I help people around me? How can I?

Speaker 2 15:24

help myself Because I am like I said to you this morning, I don't, I. It's not like I don't think, I am not business, I don't know. If it's a problem for people, it is. I'm realizing at my age that it's a problem for me because why can't I sit with an idea that is a good idea that I have and be able to turn it into a stream of income? Why can't I do that in ways that I see my friends?

Speaker 1 17:29

Because it's not your makeup.

Speaker 2 17:30

No, no, I don't think so. I think it's just because I am.

Speaker 1 17:35

You were not conditioned to Exactly you were not conditioned to think that, okay, you could be an entrepreneur.

Speaker 2 17:41

Exactly Because this is what I say. I watch people whose parents were market people, not necessarily rich market people, People who sell, who see, who see all these things. It's good.

Speaker 1 17:54

I wanted you to land on that Right and I would use a personal experience Right?

Speaker 2 18:00

All right, just go ahead and I see how the ones that I know, end up being able to do business.

Speaker 1 18:10

Okay, this is where nature nuture the nature nuture thing. Okay, and I'm using myself, yeah, myself, okay, and I'm using myself right, yeah, myself, my mother. I grew up seeing my mother, the most industrious human being ever, that well in my life, like she touches anything like this, it will become a stream of income. She had poetry, she had a poetry, she had was, was, he was was he?

Speaker 2 18:39

I would like retail retail.

Speaker 1 18:41

Oh, she had, yeah, a retail store, right and all her retail store, even in the studio, that small place you see out there, it was a retail store. She did it all the time. She would knit and sell, she would do this, she did everything. I saw her do it. Guess what I can't like? I read I have tried, and this is the the. I have tried, I have tried my hand in business. But the good thing, because I knew I couldn't.

Speaker 1 19:14

The people around me, there's a lady I know she can sell your head to you, collect change and give you you know, and give you your check. So I, I, I in quotes I don't want to say invest, but that's the word I invested in, um, that particular business which was a sportswear business and what from it. See what I could, I had, I had these things with me and I was putting on my status and doing all the marketing. I did everything marketing. People said you should do and I couldn't sell them in a year Like I could. Maybe friends like, ah, pity me and say, oh, and do you understand? And this lady took it in two weeks and they were all gone. But I hear you, I'm going somewhere.

Speaker 1 20:10

My daughter stayed was, saw my mom for the first night, was with my mom for the first nine years of her life. My daughter will sell your head to you and give it to you if she puts her mind to it, like it comes easy to her, like she started beating at three four. She started beating at three four. The same woman that raised me is born just like my brothers and I were not apart from, uh, my baby brother who was very active in my mother's life.

Speaker 1 20:50

The, my late brother and I were like my mother would put us in the store, in our shop, and I can assure you we will not only give wrong change. We will see someone who is in, who is in need. Myself and Yolanda will call the person in and give the person soda and all that. That's why I use the term, because it's not in your makeup and you are not conditioned because I was conditioned by my mum. I actually was domest, conditioned by my mom. I actually was domesticated by my mom to do that, but there was always fights she punished me for not, because until now I cannot carry a chicken and mom, did you get?

Speaker 2 21:33

So yeah, Again, I hear you and I know that we as human beings we have different builds, right. But when it comes to that area, when I say being able to be business, I mean, does it mean that I have to necessarily sell Mm-hmm Right?

Speaker 2 22:00

I don't think I have the predisposition to say I don't think I do, but doesn't mean that I can't be business savvy. I don't think so. I think that there's. So when I'm looking at in in the, in the holistic sense of, there must be things that I do I necessarily need to look at.

Speaker 1 22:17

For example, don't worry, guys, we're still talking show.

Speaker 2 22:21

Come back to this guy who was his name had it started with a blog, I think. Is this that this get this start with why, guy, I don't know. And no, no, it's the marketing guru. Guy, what's his name? I remember his name and it's time. Just a blog. And because of his blog, his, his blog, grew over the years to the extent that I think they say he reaches about 50,000, 100,000 something every day. So money comes in through that. He's not selling anything. I'm just saying it's that power to be able to be cruel so is it?

Speaker 1 23:03

is it okay for me to say that you're shaming yourself now for not being business savvy?

Speaker 2 23:08

so yeah, exactly that's what I'm going to that there's somewhere at the, at the back of it, that you realize that it's not what people do to you. It's it, it's what, over the years, you begin to tell yourself that now becomes something you've internalized. I'm bad at this, I'm bad at this. It becomes I'm bad. It's no longer bad at this. Right, it becomes I'm bad, you know. So now I'm in that stage of this can be my story.

Speaker 1 23:38

This can be my identity. It can be my story.

Speaker 2 23:39

Story this can be my identity exactly, and so it's moving away from what guilt does to us through shame, right, because at the end of the day, if it was, um, if profit was not an issue, I would not shame myself that I'm not business savvy, so uh yeah, that's what it is.

Speaker 2 24:02

Yeah, yeah, yeah so if I can move from there to a place where I am able to reverse that, then it's, it's, and I think that's how we should deal with the issue of shame, rather than trying to, and so so you know what I said. Um, so I came back to that place because I was talking about accountability so when you're able to hold yourself accountable to something that that shame will naturally dissipate because you now begin to find ways to deal with it at the root I don't believe in dealing with stuff at the branches.

Speaker 1 24:35

Yeah, okay, we'll get to the roots, but I'm looking'm looking at, because this was the definition that changed my. I'm not saying I'm better at this kind of shame thing, no, I'm better, but I'm probably just 40% to 50% better. Shame as the intensely painful feeling or experience of believing that we are flawed, therefore unworthy of love and belonging. I am bad, I am a mess. The focus is on self, not behavior, with the result that we feel alone. Shame is never known to lead us toward positive change. Of course, it thrives in secrecy, silence and judgment. So is it possible for us to differentiate between shame and embarrassment?

Speaker 2 25:40

What's embarrassment?

Speaker 1 25:51

I can go and Google search because I don't know what embarrassment is.

Speaker 2 25:54

I think that they are close relations. I think shame is, I think embarrassment is the grandfather of shame.

Speaker 1 26:05

Well, google says embarrassment is a feeling of self-consciousness, shame or awkwardness, typically triggered by awkward or humiliating social situations.

Speaker 2 26:19

Right.

Speaker 1 26:21

That's too much English. I think what that simply means is that embarrassment is felt more in social situations, and it's not. It's a feeling as against personalising, as against an identity. It's a feeling that, oh, you fell down in front of people. Now that's what grows into shame. If you constantly now fall down in front of people, you then begin to question I can't walk well. I can't go out in public.

Speaker 1 26:57

That's where it becomes see, as we just at the same time. I can't go out in public. That's why it becomes. Ah, that's why it becomes. See, I should just reach real mad At the same time. See, I should just reach real mad. Oh my goodness.

Speaker 2 28:06

Oh, my goodness, that's why I say that I don't know anything, because if you come to such conversations with that, I know I'm not sure what you would take out of it. Um, now I, I'm even more, um, I'm even more certain that holding myself to a level of accountability in in the sense that you can do this, this.

Speaker 2 28:35

This doesn't have to be the story of your life Right, maybe to a particular stage it has been the story Because, like I say, we see people who they don't have half the information or half the knowledge or half the brains that we think we have.

Speaker 1 28:54

That we think we have, that we think we have, and they're doing things and you don't look at yourself and I'm like okay, let me tell you one of the things I say when my family is watching TV, for example, or I feel like I've watched TV for too long and.

Speaker 1 29:15

I feel I'm unapologetic about what I want to say right now. Or when I'm watching a film, I just like I literally would just pick the remote, turn the TV off and say to my family well, they're making their money Me, I'm here wanting to sleep and like I literally like I literally just shut, and that that single statement can send me into a downward spiral if I'm not careful and I will not touch the TV remote for another four weeks, just because I feel that I'm not doing enough to the capacity of what I believe I could do. So, yeah, let's talk about origin, origin sort of, for a bit. What's your earliest if you feel shame? That is, what's your earliest memory of shame. It's not that deep, it is.

Speaker 2 30:14

I just finished writing another book and the title is yes let me shame you.

Speaker 1 30:21

What are you done with my mother's voice?

Speaker 2 30:24

so trying to get an editor giving it to someone, but I'm gonna talk to me again today.

Speaker 1 30:30

I need to, so you can talk about the second book.

Speaker 2 30:33

The title is Beyond being Loved.

Speaker 1 30:42

I can hear a million and one things in my head, but let's go.

Speaker 2 30:59

And it was in this writing that a lot of things that I didn't think had anything to do with my life began to surface. I'll just give one. I was. I cried when that because I think I done with that chapter.

Speaker 1 31:11

You done that inner work.

Speaker 2 31:14

You know the do, you know the done, and it was. This is the story. When I was younger and I see it now in my adulthood the areas of my life that and I'm grateful to God for bringing them up for me to deal with, for me to deal with, so when I tend to upset my mom it's my mom. I look back and I really remember my mom having that first conversation with me. Really it would be that she's. She has a very great friend.

Speaker 1 32:01

They've been friends for I'm sure anybody who's listened to this show know that, friend, I mean friends for about 60 years plus.

Speaker 2 32:10

Yes, six years plus now. And, um, you know, even those days where there was just there was no mobile phones, right you? Once you see her come in the morning on her way to work, that's how early she would come into the house. It would be that she wants to get me right to do something your mother or something, for something that I had done that nobody had tried to talk to me about.

Speaker 2 32:48

I didn't think it growing up it was. It would just see, last last you do stronger, stronger, lucy. Oh yeah, yeah, so we might be. No, you do all that. And then you say, oh yeah, oh yeah, so you know you do all that. And then you say okay, yeah, yeah, prostrate for your mommy and your daddy. And that was my experience growing up to a large part, until when, of course, nobody you know cared anymore, like now, if you give me, you collect Everybody's collecting.

Speaker 2 33:15

Right, but I didn't know how much this was stored in my body Right, until I began to examine how much when it impacted my communication with my mother, because it meant that she couldn't have hard conversations with me she would you know, leave that conversation to somebody else. Unfortunately, my mom's friend only has daughters, Right, so how they expected that between themselves. You have three sons, she has three, four daughters.

Speaker 1 33:50

And how you expect that she would understand how to communicate with, with.

Speaker 2 33:55

It was and, and I'm just realizing that. So I'm now learning to give grace. But I'm looking at all this and I'm like, oh my goodness, that was. That was not how those issues should have been handled. It was the, it was the guilt that was turned into shame. It was you do this regularly, you do this and I have to come and talk to you every single time, and it has become this is who you are All right.

Shame in Business and Self-Identity

Speaker 1 34:24

So for me, I would think, you know I said earlier so I didn't feel shamed that way, but I'll think that the first time I saw on my report pad oh, she's intelligent, but she's playful, she's intelligent, but she laughs a lot I can hear somebody say, um, what that did to me was I shut down. So I, I just shut down, like I just shut down if and because. When I took that result home, of course it was my reason. So I was constantly just above average, just above, because then I get home I'll be beating, and you know, if was, I was just above.

Speaker 1 35:26

And then there was this term they had between. It was not because they had, it was the term that they didn't beat me, it was the gem and I, just I. And even mathematics I got 98 and that's what my mother is, guess what? She beats me again like hey. So I think for me that just shut me down. I was like, no, if nobody's going to take time to understand me, it's okay, I'll just be so I don't know. So again, it was then getting to study shame or to understand shame through Brené's eyes, and I said, okay, this is what's going on and all that. So this particular one try to bottom line, because I know this question I want to ask how do you think cultural and religious expectations reinforce shame? Again, bottom line.

Speaker 2 36:36

I shared something I'll share with you. I shared something with a friend who was in that area of pastor, because what I wrote even me, I was I'm still skeptical about releasing it to the public how people who even me, I was. I'm still skeptical about releasing it to the public how people who carry influence in the area of the religion.

Speaker 1 36:59

I'm sorry, I applaud you. I applaud you. I withdraw my statement.

Speaker 2 37:07

I'm very careful when I use spiritual. Yeah, but they can be spiritual, but in the area of religion, carry influence that they don't wield properly and they say things. So this is what that led to.

Speaker 2 37:23

This was talking about Samuel and Eli and how Eli and how, if he was this present time, they would have said Samuel was traumatized or suffered trauma and in all of the things that he had said, that was fantastic. I didn't know why he had to say that, because for me it would be people who are sitting there who have gone through trauma and we're still dealing with whether to have a conversation with somebody or not and now put in the center stage where trauma is seen as something that can be resolved. So I? I went back to look at the life of summer and in in at least in three different areas. I I again this is subjective I didn't live in, I'm not someone's brother.

Speaker 1 38:20

I didn't live in his time go ahead, because I think I know what you're doing. I don't know.

Speaker 2 38:25

Yeah, it happened so first off, you pick up a child, the child leaves the parent and you drop First off. I don't think that child was three years old. I don't believe that If Eli's children were something else, there was probably nothing. No one who was with Eli who would tend to a three-year-old, so he was probably older, maybe five, five, six, my opinion and they take the boy to the.

Speaker 1 39:01

To a spiritual leader. Yeah, because he was a spiritual leader To the man of God. Spiritual leader.

Speaker 2 39:09

That area of a child being that hyper vigilant at that age to be able to hear voices now the voice of God, and running to someone who is his mentor for me is a form someone who is his, his mentor for me, is a form of. These are things that come up to people who are in areas of different trauma, because hypervigilance is not a normal thing that people who are, who have a good upbringing, would have. That's one, and there's so many things.

Speaker 1 39:56

That's one yeah, because we'll start on that now. Yeah, yeah, no, no, no, I'm just I'm pointing out the things that you know.

Speaker 2 40:03

The question is in terms of the religious side.

Speaker 1 40:05

Yes, how do you think cultural, and you know, religious, reinforce expectations? Yeah, let me just go to the third one, which I think is very apart from the fact that, and cultural and you know, and then we'll just reinforce expectations.

Speaker 2 40:12

Let me just go to the third one, which I think is very apart from the fact that Shilo was meant to be spiritual headquarters, this guy moved back to his place. He moved to the headquarters, back to where he was born.

Speaker 2 40:27

And I think that there is something there. You know again I say that because I'm a church person we don't talk about those things that don't seem to heal god. I don't know the kind of god that we see we serve. If god allowed it to be something that was written down, I believe that every area we talk about spiritually a lot, but inside the bible we have issues of mental health breakdown.

Speaker 1 40:53

Elijah had depression after like no, I'm not staying here, I'm not dealing with this a second time.

Speaker 2 41:07

Take me now you know so, and and then we have the issues where I don't. I think that Samuel also had issues with his children. Yes, Because he one. He didn't grow up with his parents.

Speaker 2 41:19

He didn't know what he felt like to grow up with his parents, and what he saw was Eli Now if you tell me that that is not symptoms of trauma, for you to now publicly say stuff like that for people who've gone through stuff, how do you want them to seek help? This is why I say that this is just religion. Culture is worse Because culture from get-go shames you From get-go. You don't even know that it is shame until you come to a new level of knowledge.

Speaker 1 41:50

A new level of knowledge you know when you're Understanding New level of understanding, when the self-gap begins to when REMA happens to you, yeah, so.

Speaker 2 41:59

I think it's there.

Speaker 1 42:01

We don't need to. So I have a cousin that doesn't speak to me anymore because I called her cousin. She's what? She's my cousin.

Speaker 2 42:10

What she's, what she's my cousin, what is what's called my sister?

Speaker 1 42:12

so we grew up together, so it was um auntie and all that ah and then, when my dad passed, uh, she said, she said a happy birthday to me and I said thanks, cause, and she stopped speaking. She said and I said we're older about 13 years and I said you're my cousin. I said, eh, we've not spoken now in 4 years not because she's not great with English she is.

Speaker 1 42:43

Incidentally, she did study linguistics, you know. But I had come for me at that point, I had come to the place that everybody bear the exact name, you know the appellation that, yeah, some people will say that it is not yoruba to do that. We don't have. But but we have words for step, like obacon, we, jennison, I'm sure if I was vast in yoruba, I'm sure there will be a word you're not, you're the fact that you're downgraded.

Speaker 2 43:23

You downgraded her role in your life, that's the whatever from auntie to auntie auntie's high now Auntie to cousin Cousin feels like your age mates and you know how. Yorubas can be with age. You should bring her down from auntie to cousin. I think that that can be part of the challenge.

Speaker 1 43:41

My shield. People can, people can accept it.

Speaker 2 43:44

I started teaching myself how to allow people.

Speaker 1 43:48

Show up the way they want you to.

Speaker 2 43:51

Initially it was hard Like call me. Call me, because I don't introduce myself as Mr. It's not part of my government name. It's not Just call me Ola, call me Oluwasyon, right? Just call me.

Speaker 1 44:03

Initially it was hard. Yes, it was.

Speaker 2 44:05

It takes a real rewiring Because, growing up even the four-year gap between my brother he calls me brother Even now my immediate younger brother is about.

Speaker 1 44:18

it's not up to 36 months, but you know, in between 25 and sister me.

Speaker 2 44:24

Because they wouldn't let him call me.

Speaker 1 44:27

So even we're having conversations. You know there are places we'll be and he will say to me she, but my brother would rather use tissue, right, you know everything? Yes, you know so, but for me and I sincerely I really don't like that. Then I started studying with um, with people. When I changed and I was, there was someone who is about 10 years, 15 years younger than me, calling a lady who was 65 years old at the time. When I met her by name, I already made a mistake. I was like how you know. But then, being in the media, we used to wait. I was like how you know. But then, being in the media, we used to wait for our bosses to be guests on our shows, because you can't call them Like ah, when we're having this, we say hey, lecon, so the last time.

Speaker 2 45:29

Lecon, so we wait.

Speaker 1 45:30

I'm so sorry, but you know we did that a lot. These are the things that and I don't know if it's shame or embarrassment or the rites of passage, but I think that the things. But you see that religious expectations reinforcing shame, let's not even go there because it does intertwine with culture. It does intertwine with culture and because we've not been able, and culture is just a way of people leave.

Speaker 1 46:03

It's the way people leave. When a person is seen to have deviated from the perceived best cultural norm, then there is. Then that's where we have the putting it in silence, and that's why our culture is very silent. Something happens, don't speak, even when you speak, if you're mystic in your speaking, and all that in this condition, it's going to take a lot of things. So, as we round this up, because of course we're going to just not talk, we're going to give that's what I do now.

Speaker 1 46:38

I give journaling prompts at the end of each episode. What do you think? What do you think is the most shame trigger in these days?

Speaker 2 47:02

I think that would really be subjective. I think it would depend on background, your history, your origin. I think it would be dependent on that. But for me, for example, if I had to talk about myself, what would trigger me with Ivan going very far is being broke. So being broke and somebody saying something that makes me think if I had money, that would that would have happened.

Moving Beyond Shame and Healing

Speaker 1 47:37

You know, I think it's something I would together for me, which is again why I I have to deal with that okay, so now for me it's I'm protecting my mental health let them protect it now yeah, because, because it has become so facetious now, so much so that the people that truly need it and the people like you and I who are advocating it, are saying, as, just like you said, you know are saying as we're making a big deal out of nothing. Yeah, and because we have the vocabulary, we have the vocabulary for mental health. Now, unfortunately, the way that I'm protecting my mental health is going around.

Speaker 1 48:41

now it is further driving stigma and pushing people to that place where Brenna says the secrecy, the silence, the judgment. There's the secrecy, the silence and there's judgment, because a person who truly needs to answer some questions can't say that I'm you know, can't say that I'm not going to be so, I can't even lie. It's beyond shaming, it's beyond embarrassment for me. It is it's just like no, like I go somewhere and I'm having a conversation and I say, oh, I was saying so to someone the other day in the Christian gathering.

Speaker 1 49:25

And it's like I said. Can God take this bipolar away? Yes, as he chosen to? No. Am I going to enjoy it and make the best of it, while leaning on God?

Speaker 1 49:45

to take away this from me, but he said no, my grace is sufficient. So, dear sister, I'm seeing this as death porn and I am choosing to rest on that grace that you are protecting him. Come on that you are a Christian or you're a Muslim, or even I hate to use traditionalist, but an indigenous worshiper. You know, trying to find a known God while worshipping your known God, there are questions you want to answer. That you cannot answer these questions does not mean that you don't believe in whatever. I know where I'm at. I'm a church girl, just like I said, and I believe God through Jesus Christ. But don't tell me that, like you said a lot of things, all those kind of things inside the bible usually, all those kind of things, that bible that you know, language made you for me stick right and we have taken literally other things that are standing in the way and things are standing in the way.

Speaker 1 51:17

So, yeah, I don't withdraw, I don't lash out, I don't poop a place anymore. When I'm in that shame spiral, when I feel like I'm speaking to someone, I'm in a place and they're taking me back to that place where I feel inadequate, I feel like I don't belong. I don't numb anymore, I just take myself out. I just take myself out. But I am grateful, and that's why I love mental health conversations. I'm grateful for that situation that made me feel not enough, because then I know that my enoughness is enough.

Speaker 1 52:16

Yeah, why are you going to be like that?

Speaker 2 52:24

yes, I'm asking see I'm grateful for the conversations that we have and my hope is that people who listen to it. So what I say in my writing is I'm hoping that you don't stop reading and stop thinking. The idea for me is that when you're done reading, it tickles you to even want to think further, to either disprove what you've read or to see the truth in it and maybe find healing for yourself and pass some. If you are healed, people around you will find your healing, because your healing comes with boundaries, it comes with wholeness eventually, and there is no way there is just no way that you live in a gated estate that there will be all kinds of nonsense happening. So once your boundaries are structured, once that healing happens for you, you find out people around you, for example, that you just realize that people that say, uh, I'm protecting my mental health, I don't leave it at that, I, I, I press, I want to know what's?

Speaker 1 53:45

what if it's?

Speaker 2 53:46

possible that this person does? Because if you say you're protecting me, I'm sure you're actually protecting something that you may not even be aware of, right? So I want to know do you know this thing? Yeah, this thing you are really protecting is it understanding, because it can mean that you shut down easily. Right, there's something there why you shut down small thing, small thing. You don't have patience, I don't want to be upset. No, so I sometimes. It's not all the time, because I also don't have that energy Sometimes I try to explore with them whatever it is.

Speaker 1 54:24

But again, like you said, these conversations cannot end, cannot end, and we have to end this one for now.

Speaker 1 54:36

And so let me just leave you with some reflections before allow um ola close out, and this conversation we at least we have started. We probably have a part two of this just when we have gathered ourselves and have more um understanding of this. Let's just, it's moving. Let's move us from understanding or trying to explore shame now to where the thing is. And um, the first thing that I'm going to say to you, dear mindful partner, is that you should affirm that shame is human, but, um, you don't want to live in it. Right, you don't want to live in it. You want to name it and then probably find a safe place where you can connect, where you can share with someone who has earned the right to hear and listen to your story. That statement is packed, but I can't unpack it right now and then approach with a bit of self-compassion, speak to yourself the way you'll speak to your friend, and the journaling prompt for this week One what part of your story Deserves?

Speaker 1 56:05

compassion today and two who Can you share your story with, knowing they would respond with Empathy, not judgment. You can write it down, don't worry, I'm already thinking about it. Of course you know shame is loud, but you don't have to be silent. Take it away.

Speaker 2 56:35

You've said a lot, but we've not even scratched it. We've said a lot, but we've not even scratched it. My parting words would be that don't let what has led you to where you are lead you to where you can be, especially when it has to do with shame.

Speaker 1 57:02

That's all. Maybe I should say a prayer May you choose to walk inside, may you choose softness, may you choose healing for yourself. And, like Allah said, when you're healed or when you work towards healing, the people around you will be healed or begin to work or walk within healing too. Until the next time, be kind to the story that lives in you. That lives in you. Stop, breathe, notice, reflect, respond and resolve. I am Uluwatu Mishi Ola Dakwakuku. Love yourself, love your neighbor, love your country. Above all of this, love God.

Speaker 2 58:04

He is the essence of your being.