If Care Feels Like Distance, What Is Love For

What if being loved still leaves you lonely? We sit down with Ola—now an author—to trace the subtle gap between affection and attunement, and why safety is the missing ingredient in so many families and partnerships. Through personal stories, cultural context, and clear language, we unpack how tone, co‑regulation, and early repair teach a nervous system what intimacy feels like, for better or worse.

We start with the book’s bold thesis: love without safety can feel like abandonment. From childhood corrections delivered through sharp looks to third‑party scoldings, we explore how kids learn to shrink curiosity to avoid conflict. That early pattern becomes adult performance—fixing, achieving, and overextending to earn closeness—while the body quietly stores the small absences: the reach that met no meeting, the apology demanded without understanding. We name recognition grief, the ache that rises not from death but from realizing something vital was missing all along, and we talk honestly about living fully while healing rather than waiting to be “done.”

Together we navigate boundaries that protect softness, not punish others. We contrast gratitude with true receiving, question multitasked intimacy, and acknowledge culture’s role—silence, obedience, and passive aggression disguised as respect. Ola brings the vocabulary of attachment and the warmth of lived experience, translating academic ideas into everyday choices: how to ask for what we need, how to refuse being dragged back into chaos, and how to stop passing on the patterns that shaped us. We close with three gentle questions to carry into your week and an open door to a reflective, non‑fixing community space.

If this conversation resonates, follow the show, share it with someone who needs it, and leave a review so others can find these stories. Your listening shapes what we explore next.

To get Ola's book on Amazon https://a.co/d/4x5FjOA

or on Selar Selar.com/m/theseundawodu for pdf 

Transcript

Welcome Back And Milestone Reflections

SPEAKER_02 1:05

Is that it? Until we start. Hi mindful partners. Until we start. Someone decided that the way new. Anyways. Just I am so grateful for the gift of you, all of you. Almost three years, and you have stuck with me on this journey. The five episodes that heralded the hundredth episode explored a concept that you know I'm yet to grasp. That I have termed societal narcissism. In case you missed that series, I'll put the link in the show notes. So, away from that now. You already gave himself away. But I invite you to continue this mindful journey with me. Because after those five solo runs, of course, you know Ola must come back to the studio. You know now he would go back to the studio. But the interesting thing about Ola being back in the studio is that he's coming as Mr. Akiola Shill Dowd. As an author. Oh my goodness. I am super, super, super pumped. As you know, Ola has been okay. So you're wondering where Shon came from. Don't worry. We are used to calling him Ola here. Uh he's been with Mindful with Tumi She from the inception, the third episode, actually. Yes, you um um Aderile had the first and second, you had the third and fourth, then you and Aderle had the fifth and sixth. So, yeah, since the beginning, and and I am very, very grateful for that church. So let's just before we even get to the book, let's talk about mindfully to Michelle and how far we've come.

Introducing Ola’s Book And Core Thesis

SPEAKER_00 3:12

You know, when you said to me that um you'd done a hundred plus episodes.

SPEAKER_02 3:22

This is the hundred and fast.

SPEAKER_00 3:24

Yeah, a hundred episodes in in about two years.

SPEAKER_02 3:28

Yeah, going on three.

SPEAKER_00 3:31

That's it, that's a lot of work in consistency.

SPEAKER_02 3:35

And life.

SPEAKER_00 3:36

Yeah, life. In living a whole a whole lot, and it's something something to take a cue from because um the more I the more I leave, the older I get. One of the things that I've that I keep seeing that we lock is consistency. And some people are consistent with making money, we're not consistent in making love. When I say that, it's not intimate. That kind of well, making love, I understand. Same way you make money, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right, they're not consistent in building a family, they're not consistent in being present. I think that's the most annoying for me. Um, have a friend, whenever we talk, is always multitasking. Don't bring that don't bring that stuff into my life. 2026. No, Ola almost cast.

SPEAKER_02 4:24

Oh no, things are happening.

SPEAKER_00 4:26

Don't bring that stuff into my life. I don't already I know you're talking with me, but you're on your system, you can't do both. And I insist on it.

SPEAKER_02 4:38

I was going to say before he started to speak laughter, uh, let me give you, and we're going to talk about this book. Um, When Love is not enough. I didn't need to stop you there so that you understand where we're going and how he's come to where he's come to now. And I like the writer of this book, he says, When love is not enough and when you need to feel whole, it explores a quiet but pervasive truth that being loved is not the same as feeling held. And through this memoir, a journey into neuroscience, attachment theory, and well, stories. This call examines how many of us grow up around surrounded by love, yet deprived of emotional attunement. That's one word I'm going to, we're going to like I really, really, really want to get into that word safety and co-regulation. Uh, the book traces how early relational patterns shape adult intimacy. Uh, we learn to perform, fix, achieve, or other function in order to earn closeness. It explores how modern life, productivity culture, and digital connection make intimacy while often bypassing presence. Did I get that correct? Did you did you come across as by the edge?

SPEAKER_00 6:20

Yes, she did. Yes, she did. Like I was saying this coming coming to have this conversation with you, I had to listen and listen. It feels like I'm listening to someone out of myself.

SPEAKER_02 6:36

Oh, you have a you have an audio version.

SPEAKER_00 6:39

So I no, um I have this 11 lab.

SPEAKER_02 6:42

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00 6:44

So allow me to, and it just feels like I didn't I didn't write this. Because I'm like, oh, and then I'm having I'm even having more real life. I'm like, okay, oh and and I think for me it's the there's a place in the book where I say it's it's not a guide per se for me because I'm still leaving it, there's still times that I fail at it. That's the times I'm finding myself telling people what to do or how you know, rather than just be.

SPEAKER_02 7:21

Okay, so let's not because that's you're just going inside the book like that.

unknown 7:26

Come back.

SPEAKER_02 7:27

You know, when I when I was on chapter 10 of the book, um, I I sent you a message. I said, um, we could have an episode only on the introduction alone.

SPEAKER_01 7:36

Right.

SPEAKER_02 7:36

And I when I said that, what did you think I meant?

SPEAKER_00 7:42

Um so most of the reviews I've gotten would be this is your introduction. Because the introduction is is a book by itself. It's not impossible that sometime in the future I'll still take the entire introduction to make a series. I that's where it's coming. My series of short that makes it easier for people to even get more learnings from it.

Love, Attunement, And Co‑Regulation

SPEAKER_02 8:11

Yeah, you know, so because I think I then it's very thinking is very subjective, yeah. But in this case, I think that uh just you know, if I feel what the readers of Living Mindfully, you know, felt you understand when they said to me that oh living mindfully felt like a cliffhanger because I just told stories of how I got there, uh or you know, of I am here, not how I got there, and you know, the stories behind the how. So I think that would be you know how it's going to become a series and all of that. But the as you can see, but if you can see it from the preface, from the preface is where I began to um to what's the word I'm looking for to highlight, and I'm going to read it to you.

SPEAKER_01 9:12

Let's go ahead.

SPEAKER_02 9:12

And then when I read it to you, tell me what it's saying to you, right?

SPEAKER_00 9:18

Philip, before you read, the the beautiful thing is and um and um and you will never do this except you write. Yeah, the moment you write and you get feedback from people be like, that wasn't what I was talking about.

SPEAKER_02 9:30

Yeah, that's fine. Yes, yeah, okay. So you're ready. You're ready, you're ready, okay. This book is about love, yet it knocks on so much more. It's about what love becomes when it misses the mark of safety, it's about how love, when unaccompanied by attunement, can still feel like abandonment. It's about how you can be surrounded by people who will do anything for you but still feel completely thirted inside, and how the work of repairing that is slow and sacred, requiring a dedication that only you can give. It is learning through the repairing how to hold yourself with compassion, how to hold space for others without expecting them to heal you, and how to recognize when what you are calling help is actually your unspoken fear, trying to feel useful.

SPEAKER_00 12:12

When are you going to start doing reading books for people? Just read them.

SPEAKER_02 12:16

Oh, I do that right.

SPEAKER_00 12:22

I'm going to try and be as um because I I even though I wrote the book, when I talk about it, I find that I've experienced a bit more um in terms of life and you know, with regards to the book, that my response is change from time to say from time, isn't it? Change from time to time. And um there are words there that we leave or don't leave, like, but we don't know what they are. Right. Um what exactly are those human, for example, co-regulation? Those are words that whether you know them, it's just like gravity. Whether you know what the definition of gravity is or is not, it affects you. Right. And I found that love is love is strange. I'm I'm not even sure if what we practice is love, and this is very weird to talk about because when you look at what we know love to be, or what we've been shown that love is, it it really falls short of the mark of what love really should be.

The Power Of Tone And Early Patterns

SPEAKER_02 13:52

So you see, um again, I'm sure you've listened to, and if you've not go back and listen to the serious societal narcissism, and the reason um this part of the preface, you know, jumps at me is when you said how to recognize when what you're calling help is actually your own unspoken fear trying to feel useful. And there's there's an episode I spoke about emotional colonization, and that's what most of us, even in the healing ministry industry, no, it's a ministry, industry, the healing and service industry, and talking about coaches and talking about therapists and all of that, um, we we we of course one of the things that teach you is that you don't you don't um you don't legislate on other people's emotions, but because we are humans, so my question for you is at what point then, because you know we relate and corregulate, and is at what point then are we going to say that I allow you to be?

SPEAKER_00 15:13

Yeah, at what point I think it's a growth thing, it's there's an awareness thing, right? First, and there's a growth thing that that follows. All right. Um for example, you I found that me insisting on how I want to be treated is not out of place. People are not used to it, they just accept it, they accept the whatever anybody deals to them or deals gives to them, and that's fine. But I insist that you and it may not be your fault because you're also coming from a life that may be very disorganized, right? And that's okay. If you're not aware about where you're coming from, I'm growing an awareness of where I am, where I'm coming from, and there's some things that just do not work for me. While I will not tell you how to live, I know how I want to live, I know I know how I want to be interacted with, I'll tell you all of that, and I will expect that in your own reorganizing of your life, because if you want to be in my space, it's absolutely necessary that while I'm not going to drag you to where I think that I am, you're not going to drag me to where I think you are, right? So it's a win-win. Oh, everybody goes this way. I and it's and this is hard for me to say because growing up, I I was very attached. I didn't know how to lose friends, even when I didn't feel I was getting the best out of the friendship, I would hold on to it. Because because one it wasn't even easy for me to make friends, it wasn't easy. I would I was shy and timid when people don't believe that, but I was shy, I was timid when I was younger. I have a younger brother who's all of life. If my brother enters this place, he will fill this place with his vibes. That's my younger brother. And I was all I was not my brother's friends, I will make my brother's friends my friends because he already has them. They already like him. It was easier for that. So now coming to a place where if it's not working for me, it's not working for me. I still don't want to yesterday. I'm like, it's good, it's good. Feel no attachment. It's just it's just it's I don't even know how to say it.

Grief From Recognition, Not Loss

SPEAKER_02 18:00

So um, of course, you know, in in when you say um holding, some of us are our attachment tendencies is very, very um attached, very loyalty attached to the person that you've known for a certain number of time because you feel that you've shared certain things with them. And you've heard me say constantly that we tend to evaluate our importance in other people's lives because on um our our invest our perceived investment into that relationship. Now, this you are the one who is sacrificed, you are the one who has invested what you're investing in that person's life is your sacrifice is not theirs, and this can be where pain comes from in relationships and all that. And well, the truth also is that a lot of people tend to um uh want to love the that way when they're okay, I'm there for you and all that, but somehow, because of the stories of origin, they do not know how to do the uh aware. Alright, let's go back to the book. Um I know this is hard, it's it's not hard, you know. I'm I'm trying not to be academic. Yes, because this book is quite academic, right? And it if if I decide to speak as coach to coach, oh we would we would lose a lot of people. So I'm trying very hard to do you understand? I'm trying very hard to break that down in such a way that we're not talking over the head of people, because I picked it and you know, I was like, oh, oh, oh, it makes sense to me immediately. Because at times in there that, oh, oh, okay, okay. And because I'm a linguist, I'm a language person, I'm hearing it as a European girl. Yes, I'm hearing it. Do you understand? Yes, I'm hearing the European nest over there, you know. So for me, it was home. Right. Do you get so we have to work all right? So there's something that uh that that kicked that I that one I did not know how, like, when I saw it, I was like, whoa. Are you ready for it? When I was a child, still small enough that my understanding of right or wrong was shaped entirely by the tone in someone's voice. If I did something wrong, there wasn't much conversation. At least not with me. My mother would talk about it, yes, but not with me. She would talk about it with her friend, then her friend would come over, sit me down, and insist that I apologize. Whether I was right or wrong, in need of more understanding or not, was not the basis of that conversation. I feel now that the essence was for me to know my place as a child and be grateful. See, I would explain it because we still do it. We still do it, we still do it. So while I was preparing for this, I was I knew that I had written something about it before. And I went, you know, I went to check my dropbox. Yes, that's how bug I'd written about it. And this was what I wrote back, wrote about it way back in where did I put it now? Oh no, I'm going to find it. No, no, no, you're not going to do that to me. Um, so what I wrote about it maybe how many years ago now, like 20 when I started having children, that was when I wrote about what I wrote now. Um, just it okay, the third person. It's funny how we refer to children in the third person, like we never grew up or never went through that phase. When my parents did it, I want more Isha, Kenny, one more, kill them all, all those kind of things. It act me because I did know. All right, but recently I have had to catch myself doing the same.

SPEAKER_01 22:23

Right.

SPEAKER_02 22:24

Talking about my children and even talking down at them. And people like, of course, this I wrote this maybe in 2011, thereabout, until yeah, 2011, just after I had my son. People around me know now not to say uh Awamoi or Kilomademo or they know people around me know not to say it now because the question I'm gonna ask you is why did you a child? Were you just giving birth to, and then did you like it when it's said to you? But what is um profound from this is I did not know until I read it that a tone or voice was what upset me, not exactly what was said. Talk me through that.

SPEAKER_00 23:14

I don't know why I feel quite emotional talking about this book, yeah. Um, especially this part that you just read. Um and my my mom is an she's a she's a wonderful person, and I say this, I'll I'll say it even when we fight. Yeah, I've seen I was telling her yesterday, I know I fought everybody. She was now mentioned one of my aunt. See, but you don't I see she doesn't look for my trouble. Yeah, my mom's an she's she's an awesome person, but and and my mom's mom, another so and again the line of work we do helps you to easily find patterns. Patterns, the patterns in every everything you do in life, and you when you see these patterns, it helps you to grant grace to people, and I think also that I'm because I'm sensitive, because my brothers are not really like that. You can say my opinion, you can say some stuff to you and it's he's not hearing you like you can be very upset, and it's not it, he's not hearing you the way he dismisses things, sometimes I mean oh, like this life is beautiful, and that's what makes life easy for the stuff, yeah. And but I've I've learned that you can only give what you have, right? Um, and the funny thing about this mix of what you read is my my mom's friend has all girls, and you are all your mom had all boys. So imagine the I don't know, this is the only word coming to me, the discombublation of that relationship.

SPEAKER_02 25:06

So it it it was as if they were training the children vicariously, and I and I'm sure it was how they were raised.

SPEAKER_00 25:15

My my aunt is very comfortable with confrontation. My mom has nothing to have no problem with confrontation, but there were just some hard conversations. I think she wasn't used to having, or she she didn't know how to have them. That's the right word, because my mom can be very confrontational, but she didn't know how to have them. So I think it was in all of that mix oh my uni burno, we can't talk to him, and she feels that oh, um, I listened, and it was not that I listened to her friend more, it was just that her friend would not take a disalignment or disagreement with what you were saying. She already, of course, you know when you have a conversation with you're coming with the neutral mind, it's a lie. You already have a bias in place. Um you've known her, they've been friends for my goodness. Since before you were born, almost 60 years. Yeah, six years plus now. And so, who's she going to believe?

SPEAKER_02 26:14

You're do you know you know, and these patterns, uh guys, we're still in the introduction, just saying, and the title of a book is When Love Isn't Enough and What You Need to Feel Whole. And so you and I have the same story, but not the same. Not the same in the sense that you are very sensitive. I am hyper-sensitive, but for some reason, maybe not not maybe the way I was um I was um what's the word I what's that word I use? Domesticated. The way I was domestic as uh domesticated as hypersensitive as I was, and I still am, I have some agency of how to just you know, if you don't serve me, you don't serve me, but I can still be there for you, right? You know, but that's where we differ.

SPEAKER_01 27:15

Right.

SPEAKER_02 27:16

If you're not serving me, please go.

SPEAKER_01 27:18

Right.

SPEAKER_02 27:19

That's you, and how does that come to play when again this is still in the introduction when we talk about grief of that child that didn't grow that was unfair.

Guardedness, Gratitude, And Rewiring

SPEAKER_00 27:40

So I you know I said I was emotional. So I think this is it for me, is it's that living your childhood, but not really leaving your childhood. When you look back, I'm like, this could have been different. If this was different, I would probably be a different person. Um, if I enjoyed being and I you know I used to get into fights, huh? I used yes, I still I still do, but I'm um it's better now when I don't feel I'm being listened to. It took me all of the better part of my life to realize that this is where all this thing is.

SPEAKER_02 28:17

The reason you were fighting was because I didn't feel I was being hurt, I fought and I did not know. I knew I didn't know, I knew, and I'll beat you up. I I I knew um the reason I'll beat you up though would be that I had given you time to come to to to understand, and so now that I am older, I'm not so old, but now that I'm older, I still have that mentality. But if I have pulled you out, I've spoken with you and I've said I I didn't like this, or I'm gonna say it like I don't like this, I can say, Oh, you did it this way, and maybe, or maybe because you saw that I always did this for you, I don't think it is right, and you still don't take the hint, right? I'll remove myself, to be honest, I'll just remove myself, right? But there's something about that grief. Um, we've talked about it before. No, we've not talked about it. We haven't talked about but we've talked about um we've talked no on the show that I've talked about. Yes, yes, you know, we've talked about ambiguous grief. Um sometimes, you know, during our conversations and all that. And I'll read I'll read a part to you. Okay, apologies that I'm making you cry, but it's okay. I love it. I love it. All right, there's something peculiar about grief when it doesn't come from death but from recognition. The grief that rises when you realize something important was missing and has been missing all along. That's what began to surface as I started revisiting the early chapters of this book, not just as a writer, but as someone still on the journey of his healing.

SPEAKER_00 30:23

I'm coming to terms with the fact that we may never fully heal, and that's a lot. You might we might heal and heal, but something else comes up that we didn't know existed, and then we have to begin that journey of that healing. So again, it's giving yourself grace to live, to really live, not just be alive, to live while you're healing. It might be a lot, it might be absolutely a lot because if I'm if I'm talking like this, I'm I'm imagining someone like my mother, and I know some of our stories having to go through the healing process, and I think that's why someone goes just to just don't want to because it can be more painful, it's a journey they haven't traveled. At least they're used to the pain, they are numb to it sometimes, but you can't be numb while you're being healed, it's hard, and so some people just don't want to do that, all right.

SPEAKER_02 32:43

And and and that would lead me to this part of still the introduction, guys. So many people walk around with this quiet, unspoken ache, not always loud, not always visible, but it's there. The tension in their shoulders, the way they sleep, how quickly they disconnect from joy. You're talking about somebody, and how they overextend just to feel close to someone, and it's confusing because they were loved, at least they were told they were. It took me years to realize that you can be deeply loved and still feel emotionally alone. You can have parents who provided for you, who did what they know how to do, and yet a part of you still grows up feeling unseen or unknown. And because no one talks about this kind of ache, what parts we start you start to believe you are the problem for feeling. What I didn't understand back then was that the body kept score, not just for the big traumas, but the small silent absences, the unmet needs, the moment when you reached for connection and no one reached back. Oh, they did, but it was not in the way that you needed. Do you think we could ever, ever, ever get to a place in the cycle of life that parents will get it right?

SPEAKER_00 34:19

I don't think so. But it can just keep getting better. I don't think so. They're humans. Again, you know that the the origin of the pain is not their parents, it's multi-generations that have gone ahead of them. They're past this pain that has become culture. You know what culture is, no? A way of life. Right. It's become normal to them that if they have to do life differently, uh how are they going to start? Which generation? The one, the generation from 18 or the generation from 17. Because we don't even know how insidious these things are. We don't okay.

SPEAKER_02 35:09

What's the meaning of insidious?

SPEAKER_00 35:10

How shocking, yes.

SPEAKER_02 35:13

I even use it, but I actually don't know the meaning.

SPEAKER_00 35:16

Something that is grievous or bad or evil from the inside. Okay, you do you're grievous something that is injurious.

Cultural Scripts, Boundaries, And Presence

SPEAKER_02 35:27

Alright, let's take a short, like a really, really short break. Let's take a short break right now, and just check in with yourself, you know. I know that what we've been talking about is a little bit heavy, and you can hear in um in Ola's voice how heavy it is for him to even read this it and reread this. So breathe in like even Olaya Ola. It's okay. So let me but before I bring in Olakay to wrap up. Yes, we've been talking for almost 35 minutes. This episode is gonna be in two parts. Um, so that we can now sit down with the book. There are 12 chapters, but I just I just felt the need that we should go through the introduction so that you feel the heart of the book, and not just because it's like I said, it's quite academic. You can pick it and it speaks to you in the moment, and it's kind of a book that you have to go back to over and over again. So, right now, as you took that breath, ask your body or ask yourself however we endure it, what does my body do when someone says I care about you? Where does your mind go? And then come back with that to your laugh when somebody says to you I care about what happens in your mind or what happens to the body. I'll answer, but answer is more than people say a lot of weird things.

SPEAKER_00 37:51

A lot of I honestly don't care about what you say. I need to say it and don't tell me you can. I watched a video on Twitter last night. There's this guy who he just made this young 19-year-old chap at the dome site or something, speaking plastics to sell, and he sort of changed his life, gave him money, took him to a restaurant, cut got him a haircut, and every single time the boy was just frustrating, but he was crying because he bought him a is a tyrant. He said he was a Tyler, he had been letting out to Tyler, but he'd never graduated from now. You know those things. And I realized that, oh my goodness, I'm not a grateful person. I'm a thankful person, very thankful. But gratefulness and thankfulness are two different things. I just realized that I'm not and I and I I like to think I'm a grateful person, but the emotions I saw with this guy, I realized that, geez, even my walk with God is absolutely fake. Because the if this boy is as is this grateful to someone who's just met him in a few hours and done just this, just this for him, how can I say I'm grateful when I have people in my life who don't things and all I've all I say to them is a very exuberant.

SPEAKER_02 39:30

Thank you. Okay, my answer when someone says I care about you, I immediately am guarded. Immediately I'm guarded. Um, and and of course you know that's from stories about J. Like you tell me you care about me. Like before you get love is for, but you know, like you care about I I'm immediately guarded, and I'm like, what does this person want? Yeah, it's better now. It's way like like I'm somewhat five percent better because sometimes even my husband does things for me, and I'm not saying it in my head. I'm like, okay, how and we've been together 25 years, and I'm like, I know he's not asking for anything, but you know that was just saying how difficult it is to rewire. And this guy has been consistent for you know, overnight going on 20 years as a married man now. Do you understand? But he still does certain things in my head. I'm like, okay, fesser. So anybody says to me, if I had to say to him at some point, you know, um, I love you. It's as so long as you have not changed your mind, it's fine. There's only saying, Yes, I'm not your normal girl, but it's okay. I know. Yeah, if you do the day you do something, and then oh you don't love me again, but you've not done anything to make me feel like I'm not loved.

SPEAKER_00 41:13

Still the same thing of not just saying, Yeah, but doing because these things are vibes, they're energy, energy, yeah. Right, so you can say a lot of oh hello, I can't, and your body knows good job, good job, you just know there's no temperance, there's no temperance because again, because how you want to feel care is not how this person is delivering it to you, so you're suspicious. Oh, what exactly is it that this person is talking about? It's not very regarded.

Gentle Questions And Community Invitation

SPEAKER_02 41:53

Um, and when someone does think anything for me, I'm not even gonna lie. I'm very I'm grateful. I'm thankful and actually grateful because then I go back and like, oh, what what impact did I have in this person's life for them to have down this for me? So, yes, I am a very grateful and thankful person, but at the back of my mind, I'm like, you know, it's very difficult. I've gotten to a place that I don't pay back goods, you know. I still reciprocate. Reciprocate, for me. I still reciprocate. Oh my goodness, I still reciprocate, but you know, but I don't do it as performative as I used to. You know, it used to be performative, like somebody did something to me, and of course, you know, in the last six months, I've had to learn how to ask for help in the most humbling way. Alright, so before we round this part up, um um um I say something about let me see, say something about for some reason that tone of voice you know is because they look no I don't care who's ox's guard. I don't that those things this is who I am, that's what I am and that's and all those things. You know, our own time it was this who I am, and this time is on period, you know? Every generation has a bunch of rubbish they say. Every generation just comes up with something to make the job. Generation ahead of them accept them the way they understand. So turn of voice. Before we wrap this up today.

SPEAKER_00 43:46

Again, I still catch myself sometimes with saying stuff that sometimes I don't get. I don't catch my sometimes. It's pointed out to me that why are you talking like that? And I know not to push up my guard because if that person feels like it, they feel like it. Whether it's intentional, how I'm saying or see uh speaking is irrelevant. How they feel matters. Whether it's justified, unjustifiable or not, the work is on me to learn how to speak in a way that doesn't add to the problem. And that's a lot. Because you know that you raised with raised by Nigerian African again, Nigerian. Nigerians, yeah. Nigerian.

SPEAKER_02 44:44

I really struggle with that African parents.

SPEAKER_00 44:48

Raised by never even break down to Europe parents who uh raised a huge on respect. Silence. It's silence.

SPEAKER_02 45:04

Being seen. Being seen, not hurt.

SPEAKER_00 45:06

Passive aggression.

SPEAKER_02 45:08

Passive.

SPEAKER_00 45:11

And they don't even know it. Yeah. Right. Um, you learn to. You know how it is when you're small and and your mother looks at you like this. Oh my yeah. You understand? You will sit, you are sitting. She hasn't said a word.

SPEAKER_02 45:29

Turn of voice is not just it's still a good tool. I mean, like you know, it's still a good tool.

SPEAKER_00 45:35

And it's not a bad thing, right? It's not a bad thing. It's just that what it does to you is it can it can cause you to become something less than because again, as a child who's curious, if you learn that an adult is wrong in whatever um voice, tone of voice, and it can be body, it can be anything, that if you used, what it would do is condition you to be less explorative, true, condition you to be less curious. So while it's not a bad tool, it's knowing how to use it.

SPEAKER_02 46:18

Okay, so you have yeah, you have balanced that because as a mother, like the first time, the first time I did the eye thing, of course, because then we have a culture of always speaking in my house, anyways. And my son comes to me and was like, Okay, why did you give me that eye? And I explained to him that I just wanted you to support and all that and all that. So the next like this is years later, he's like it's going to be 15 years here, like maybe when it was 11 or 12. He knew what he was doing, was and I was laughing, and I was giving him the and then he was telling us that they're giving us a let's fuck ourselves, you know. You know, so but Judah is is in knowing how to use it, and I I hope we're going to in the next episode. Um, we're gonna get into the book. If we can get through the whole 12 chapters, we will. If not, go get a copy, as simple as that. Go get a copy. So as we wrap this up today, I'm gonna leave you with a few gentle questions. Remember, you do not need to answer them that now. You don't even need the clarity as of now, just let the question sit with you, work with you. And the first is how might my healing change the way I show up for others. What patterns am I consciously choosing not to pass on? And the third, who benefits when I stop bracing and start softening? Right, thank you very, very much for staying with me and all I like still here. Don't worry. You know, I you know I keep it a long time when nobody comes here, but if something in this episode stayed with you and you'd like to sit with it a little longer, we've opened up a mindfully with two Michelle WhatsApp space. It is not a space for fixing or diagnosing or giving advice, it's a space for reflection, listening, and shared humanity, shared stories. You're welcome to join if and only if it feels supportive to your process. The link is in the episode's show notes. So whether you join the conversation to keep it or you want to keep it set uh private, it's okay. But remember, your healing does not need an audience. Love yourself, love your neighbor, love your country. Above all of this, love God, he's the essence of you being. I am Ulu Waitshi, or ladaku, cuckoo.