EP 109: The Tweet That Broke Yorkshire Tea with Dom Dwight

Dom Dwight joins Embracing Marketing Mistakes to share the reality of building a challenger brand that people genuinely care about.

Across 18 years at Bettys and Taylors of Harrogate, Dom helped turn Yorkshire Tea into one of the UK’s most loved brands by backing creative risk, trusting people and stripping out layers of sign-off. In this episode, he talks candidly about the resistance that comes with brave marketing decisions, the value of long-term agency relationships and why safe ideas often create the biggest risk.

The conversation also goes deep on social media mistakes, political pile-ons and the moment a single tweet spiralled into days of backlash, memes and headlines. This is an honest look at autonomy, humour and accountability when a brand finds itself in the spotlight.

Dom Dwight spent nearly two decades shaping Yorkshire Tea’s brand voice and advertising, starting as a creative copywriter and later leading its early move into social media. He played a central role in the brand’s long-running, award-winning work with Lucky Generals and is now working independently, helping ambitious brands build culture-led marketing that resonates with real people.

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Transcript

Meet The Yorkshire Tea Marketer

Chris Norton 0:00

Would you love to be one of the UK's number one challenger brands? Well, this week we speak to somebody who was behind one of the biggest challenger brands for 20 years.

Dom Dwight 0:10

So I was working in magazine journalism, like local, and then I got a job at Betty's and Taylors. We've got Dom Dwight from Taylor's of Harrogate, aka Yorkshire Teaea. That's how I kind of go t Yorkshire Teaea started on social. That's back in 2008.

Chris Norton 0:24

One of the brands that was fairly well known to becoming one of the biggest tea brands in the world.

Will Ockenden 0:29

I mean, we're talking about the ads now. I mean, Sarah Lancashire, Sean Bean, Patrick Stewart, the Kaiser Chiefs.

Dom Dwight 0:34

And this week, we asked Dom all the questions about how a Challenger brand grows, some of the problems that he went to overcome them, and how to get around those little difficult social media moments. Rishi Sunak posted a picture of himself with a big bag of yorts of tea.

Chris Norton 0:50

And he shares a brilliant, brilliant time that the Prime Minister popped in for a cup of tea and it all went a little bit ping-pong on social media.

Dom Dwight 0:58

Then Prime Minister David Cameron came to our factory.

Chris Norton 1:02

So, as always, sit back, relax, and let's listen to how you can enjoy a cup of tea properly without slurping. Enjoy.

Dom Dwight 1:21

Thank you for having me.

Chris Norton 1:22

So you've got a fascinating career. You've worked in journalism and then you've worked at a particular tea brand for more than 18 years. And so our audience are marketers and business owners. And I think the one question they're going to ask themselves is which was Black Moth's biggest hit? That's the question that they're going to be asking. So which was it? I've got no idea, I'm afraid.

Dom Dwight 1:48

Can that be my biggest mistake? I've got no idea.

Chris Norton 1:51

What you've got no you've got no idea?

Dom Dwight 1:52

No.

Chris Norton 1:53

We we were you're not the drummer.

Dom Dwight 1:55

No. No? No, well, yeah, well, I was sorry, I thought this was like some curveboy you've decided to throw me off with.

Chris Norton 2:02

No, I thought I thought you I thought you were a drummer. I haven't, but I don't know. You do you're a drummer in a band? Oh my god, research has done me in there. Christmas made a mistake. I didn't know I was black moth. I've got panic in your eyes when the question got asked. It was a very weird turn at the end of that question. Wow, I thought you were playing up there. That was me. I was trying to add lift to help. So I've done some research on you, and on the internet, well, uh AI.

Dom Dwight 2:34

I've got no idea where the black moth thing's come from. It wasn't called Black Moth. No, no. Uh years ago. It's made it up then.

Chris Norton 2:42

No way.

Dom Dwight 2:43

And then um look at this!

Chris Norton 2:46

I've done detailed research on you, it's come out. Black moth, you were band.

Dom Dwight 2:51

Maybe I should take it.

Chris Norton 2:51

And I was like, that sounds really cool. I'm open with what you're into. And you were the drummer.

Dom Dwight 2:56

Maybe it was I don't. That'll be interesting to know. Is it just a real band that I've been wrongly attributed to?

Will Ockenden 3:01

I don't know. Maybe there's a nation. Maybe there's another Dom Dwight who was in a band called Black Moth.

Dom Dwight 3:06

I mean, I don't like Googling myself a lot, but I'm fairly confident there isn't another Dom Dwight.

Chris Norton 3:11

I feel like this is this is this is my biggest marketing mistake I've made on this podcast. And I didn't like it in front of the five years.

Dom Dwight 3:16

To be fair, I think this is really nice of you to create this kind of atmosphere where I feel safe. That's what we're doing.

Will Ockenden 3:24

To be fair, uh AI said I was a pro golfer, didn't it? In my spare time. Didn't it? Yeah. Okay. When when you were testing out on me and I I've never played golf in my life.

Chris Norton 3:32

Okay, well, well, so we'll get into the proper stuff then. Um so you can't well, what do you don't do you still drum?

Leaving After 18 Years

Dom Dwight 3:38

I do still drum. So just for like the accurate record, I was in a brand I was in a band at uni called Brass Moustache, uh, which was named after a very random Chris Morris sketch on the comedy show Brass Eye. Uh I played drums in that, and then I went sort of a fallow period where I didn't play drums for a very long part of my life. And then just about seven or eight years ago at Taylor's, um, one of the lads at Taylor's, who's just a good organiser of people, got a few musicians together and we formed a cover band. So we were like the in-house York City charity band, and we called Brew Unlimited. Which uh we I although I have left Taylors, I am still in that band. You're still in the band, yes. Oh, that's good. You still get a ghost then? Yeah, I still get to you know meet people and I'm not just inside in my trackie bottoms every day.

Will Ockenden 4:23

And when did you leave Taylor's then? This is a relatively recent thing, isn't it?

Chris Norton 4:27

This is breaking news, isn't it?

Dom Dwight 4:29

Uh yeah. Uh I don't know if it's breaking news. I think it's a broken news. But maybe you know, most people have got more important things to think about. So um no, I left um I left Taylor's at the end of January, um, having been there for 18 years. So quite a big thing. Um, you know, it's only been what like just over a month since I left, and I'm still kind of getting my head around what does the next bit look like for me. Um yeah. So perhaps one of my biggest mistakes if we did this in a while would be like I shouldn't have left.

Chris Norton 4:58

Well, no, but you've been eight you've been there 18 years, and I I remember listening to an interview with you um about 18 months ago, and you'd you'd been promoted to a new role.

Dom Dwight 5:08

Yeah.

Chris Norton 5:09

And uh you were talking about how the fact that the role was different to what you'd been doing, and it was a new challenge. And then obviously I'm meeting you, and I I I is quite I remember you talking about it, and I was thinking, actually, it's quite interesting to hear that you've you did you've you've had several different iterations in marketing, and then you decided, right, this this I want to go off and do so. What are you doing now then?

Dom Dwight 5:29

Yeah, so I honestly I don't fully know yet. Um I'm I've got some time and I don't want to rush into anything. Feels like the like bit like being super honest, like I have absolutely loved working at Taylors and I particularly loved Yorkshire Tea. Like I've got such a sort of bond with that brand. I'm slightly worried that I will never find another brand I would love as much as Yorkshire Tea. So I wonder if like the future is actually going to be more operating in a kind of freelance space of helping other brands. I think, and then when I think about that, I do get quite excited about that idea. Like I talk to people from other businesses who really want some of the magic that they see in Yorkshire Tea. And if I can, I really like the idea that I could help them, whether it's like helping the marketing team or helping the CEO to just sort of understand what do you need to put in place to have a chance of doing that kind of thing.

Casting Celebrities Without Cringe

Chris Norton 6:17

I mean, you are because Yorkshire Teaea, we're obviously Prohibition in Leeds. We're like there's like there's probably we're there's not many, there's not many PR agencies in Yorkshire. And we are we one of the brands that we would absolutely love to work on is obviously Yorkshire Teaea. And it's you've you've been there for 18 years, and it's some of the work that you've done with Lucky Generals, who are your creative charts. Yeah, yeah. But some of the some of the adverts are like absolutely brilliant, right? The one with um Patrick Stewart, which I mean he's always up for it since extras as well. It was very extras that advert, wasn't it?

Dom Dwight 6:50

Yeah, that's true. True, actually. I'd not thought of that before. The way I think there is a connection because the way that we use the celebrities in our ads, one of the important things for me was it wasn't like just really cringy and it's all about adoring the celebrity. Like the celebrities are like woven into the story in a way where it's almost like it's the joke is we're not making a big deal out of the fact that they're famous.

Chris Norton 7:12

Although the Sarah Lancashire one, she plays like the character that she plays in Happy Valley, and she keeps turning up looking really angry. It's about someone nicking a biscuit.

Dom Dwight 7:21

It starts to get slightly meta when the people that you're casting, like there it's actually the character they play in something else that is.

Will Ockenden 7:29

So we'll we'll we'll rewind 18 years in a minute. But on, I mean, we're talking about the ads now. I mean, Sarah Lancashire, Sean Bean, Patrick Stewart, the Kaiser Chiefs. How how does that conversation go when you think, well, okay, talk us through the decision making on who you're going to work with? And then when you speak to the agents or the talent, I'd imagine it's quite an open door, isn't it, being a brand like Yorkshire Tea.

Dom Dwight 7:50

Oh, yeah, it it was, but it kind of became more of an open door as the success of the campaign developed and as it became more of a sought-after thing. So the first, like I if I go back to where it started, it started really in the pitch when we put the business up and we awarded it to Lucky Generals. And like, unbelievably, because I know this is that common, the work we ended up making was the work that they presented in the pitch. Um but it would took a little bit of um it was a bit of a tough sell internally because quite a lot of the sort of senior business leaders were a bit squeamish about the idea of using celebrities that could have come across as a bit gimmicky. It took quite a lot of work on my part to convince everyone it was the right thing, and ultimately it was a bit of a risk I took, but thank God Lucky Generals pulled it off and it worked. But you know, the first round with the ones that actually launched in 2017, that was the Kaiser Chiefs, uh Sir Michael Parkinson, and uh the Brownlee brothers, and it wasn't a known thing. So back then I think like we had to try and convince people like this is gonna be good. Uh thankfully, because the brand was quite well liked, they were all willing to do it. Yeah, and then when it came to talking to Sean Bean a couple of years later, he had something to get his head around of like this is what we'd been invited to be part of.

Will Ockenden 9:04

I mean, then mega you know, someone like Sean Bean and that global, you know, globally recognized megastar.

Dom Dwight 9:10

Yeah, and that was definitely going up a gear. It was going up a gear in terms of his fame, but it was also like a big step up in budget, which required quite a lot of internal conversations as well.

Chris Norton 9:19

Well, I think you're downplaying that, Dom, is that the risk and bravery that you've taken on there. Because you just talked there about the fact that the agency pitched, I mean, I I've heard Lucky Generals talk, and there's there's two of them, isn't it, who run the place, is that right?

Dom Dwight 9:31

Three. Three of them. Three founders, yeah.

Why Safe Creative Can Be Risky

Chris Norton 9:33

Yeah, and they they do sound exceptional at what they do. And but the fact that they pitched an idea to you to you and you went, I I love this idea, and then you've you felt the resistance because every marketer out there feels that resistance, and often, you know, let's be honest, they can go with the the great idea that's great, set on some inside, but very risky compared to the brand, which is what you've done there. Or they can go with the idea that we'll be safe and do okay, and they'll probably and they've they've done it committed to a TV ad and a bit of creative, or they can do the absolutely boring stuff, which is what 99% of a lot of brands do. So you took the the the really creative role, which is great for lucky generals, is very brave, and not everybody is as brave as that, are they? Because it's your head on the block, right? Yeah, it's weird, isn't it? I think I don't know.

Dom Dwight 10:21

Some of I d I feel a bit uncomfortable describing it as brave, or certainly describing myself as brave. Like I do see that there was quite a lot of risk in it. I think I could see what you just described, that uh if you go down the middle of the road, the idea that that's somehow safer. It's like sometimes like the low risk strategy is actually the high-risk strategy because it's just you know, even if it pays off, it's not going to pay off very well. You might have minimised the downside, but you've also completely eradicated the upside. So what I think what really helped me was um I just believed in the idea. So that that sort of powered me through the conversations where I felt like, oh god, is this a bit of a risky thing to do? And you know, thank goodness it actually worked. So that then I that's actually been one of the things I think was a story of kind of my career, but also the the brilliant team that are still there at uh Taylor's is you know, you take you take a risk, it's a fairly calculated risk, it pays off. You build on that to make sure you've now got a higher level of confidence to take yet more risk. Yeah. You're able to kind of grow over time.

Chris Norton 11:22

But not all risk's gonna pay off. Because so if you take if you are got a risk in creative marketing, something is gonna be a fuck up, right? Which is why you're great for the show.

Will Ockenden 11:30

Yeah, I will definitely come on to that. What I liked about the ads that you've done over the years, and and we've discussed this endlessly with various kind of um advertising gurus on the show, is that they're actually genuinely entertaining to watch. Yeah, that they're not um they're not sort of, you know, there's almost a lack of creativity in a lot of particularly TVCs at the moment, but you know, the Kaiser Chiefs example, I could watch that time and time again because it's it's it's got a great song on it and it's genuinely funny, isn't it?

Dom Dwight 11:56

Thank you. I'm so pleased to hear. I mean, honestly, like the the praise for those apps are quite old now. They won awards, they did well, but also it's lovely hearing that kind of feedback. But that is how I feel about them. And I I just I think a lot of marketers probably feel like this, but feel like they're powerless to do anything about it. But I just think there's so much just bullshit content out there that's just it's supposedly doing a job, but like the people that make it don't like it, and the people that are supposed to be watching it don't like it, and you just think, what's the point?

Chris Norton 12:24

Do you know the worst bit I find? And I'm gonna keep this completely confidential because we're in a safe space.

Dom Dwight 12:29

Okay, I won't tell you.

Chris Norton 12:30

B2B brands, right? And the beat some B2B content can be amazing, but I I feel sorry for the people in like the pharma industries and the financial sectors where there's compliance, right? Because then you just see the ads and they are shit. Yeah. Because they've got to be, because they've got to tick all the boxes, even when they're B2B, and they're following compliance, and you you like advise a client, you're like, that is not gonna work. They're like, Well, we have to have this and we have to have that in. But it's so frustrating, it must be so frustrating to market in that sector.

Building Social With Less Sign-Off

Dom Dwight 13:03

Yeah, I mean, this is one of those I can see where this conversation could take me, which is the more I talk about this, the more I realise how special Taylor's a Harrogate was in terms of the culture, because you know, it wasn't like a crazy culture where we took risks left, right, and centre, but definitely it was a sort of culture where creativity was valued and we were allowed to do things differently. And you know, the more that I hear about other businesses, the more I realise that's actually pretty unique. Um, but I do quite like the idea that you could take the case study of Yorkshire Tea and go into other businesses and say, look, this is what you could do if you just opened up a bit, if you just challenge, like, have you got too much governance and too much bureaucracy here? Like one of the other examples, so the away from TV, uh one of the things I'm most proud of about Yorkshire Tea is its social media presence. Um, and the team that are still there have been there for years, they do an amazing job. But part of it is because we really, really stripped away layers of sign-off, and that's a risk, yeah, that there's somebody there who is posting stuff on what whatever platform that isn't getting sign-off from anyone before they click send. But you you put the work in at the beginning to develop the principles that everyone works with, and then it has to relax a little bit.

Chris Norton 14:14

I've got a question on that because we we've done loads, Will and I have done loads on like social media crisis, we've done crisis workshops with people. We've been working in social since when monitoring first came out. Like I helped work on um Radian6's first set of dashboards. Um, and what fascinates me is in your office in Yorkshire Tea, put your mind back there, did you have a Twitter wall with all the tweets coming in so you could see it, or was it just on people's coming? Because I always think the best reactive uh have what would now be a social media wall. But back then, when we're talking, we're talking Twitter walls, you know, like with a with a with the tweets coming in so you could see what's going on and what people are talking about. So you can jump on that amazing stuff that you guys do.

Dom Dwight 14:55

Yeah, weirdly, uh, we never quite made that happen. I had a sort of dream of that at one point, you know, a bit of a some people would call it like a war room or something, wouldn't it? And then actually we sort of looked at it less of a what the hell is going on and more let's celebrate, and let's actually put the Twitter feed, you know, back when it was Twitter and it was good. Um we put that on a screen in a corridor so that it's not just for the marketing team to keep tabs on what's happening, but it's promoting to the wider business. Like, look at this cool stuff that's happening. Um, because the thing that was always most exciting for me was like not the kind of positive reaction to the things we said, it was the chat about Yorkshire tea that we were not even involved in.

Chris Norton 15:33

Yeah. The organic conversations because they take it's take this sort of curve, you don't into places that you could never think of.

Dom Dwight 15:39

Well, it's also it's not a vanity measure, then, is it? Like if you put stuff out into the world and you get a reaction, then I obviously, if you do a better job, you get better results. But the bit where you just watch people naturally, organically talking about the brand, like that's real.

Chris Norton 15:52

Um that's um but that's when you've got a brand. Yeah. Well, because most people out there, most marketers out there have got social media, they're banging on about you know how great they are, but people aren't talking about their brands. Whereas Yorkshire tea they do, yeah.

Dom Dwight 16:04

I think it's such a trap. As well, because it's the barrier to entry is so low. You know, obviously, not every brand can put an ad on national TV because it's a really expensive thing to do. But every brand can find someone to start a social media account, and it's quite easy to fall into the trap of thinking that's achieving something. It can be a bit addictive, I think, in fact, to sort of put someone and go, right, I did I'd done something. It's like, well, only if it actually like landed and it made a difference.

Chris Norton 16:29

Yeah, we we we interviewed somebody very recently, Will and I have, and um quite a few people have been talking about we've been talking about there's a nostalgia of ads and the fact that, like, uh, you know, we gave the example yesterday on an interview. Uh, if you like a lot of chocolate on your business, you know, yeah, people end that sentence. Yeah, yeah. All the Gen Z listen to this going on about it. Yeah. Oh dear. Um, yeah, so like, or um, I bet I bet he drinks Carlin Black Label, or probably the best lager in the world, or the Hamlet adverts.

Dom Dwight 17:02

Well, my favourite one was always the red car and the blue car had a race.

Chris Norton 17:05

All that Red could do was stuff his face. Yeah. Do you remember the rest of that? Well, come on.

Will Ockenden 17:10

It's gone over my head that he eats everything he sees from trucks to prickly trees.

Chris Norton 17:13

But smart old blue, he took the Milky Way. No, no, I do. I miss that period.

Will Ockenden 17:19

Okay, recognition. Producer doesn't know either.

Chris Norton 17:21

We can bring it back. We've just lost half the audience. Yeah. Um, yeah, but the point is, um it is nostalgia back to when you were a child, or some of the best ads, and we can remember the best ads, probably the best five percent. And I think your your Yorkshire tea ads that you've done with Lucky Generals, God, they've got a plug today, haven't they? Uh I think that they're entertaining and and they're about the brand. Yeah, they're funny, they're not just ads for ads' sake, they're generally like tapping into what the brand's about. And I think that is what a lot of brands don't do in 2026.

Dom Dwight 17:56

It's kind of it's disappointing, but it's also a massive opportunity for anyone that can see that and can organise themselves to do something about it. Um I I yeah, I the truth is like I I was listening to Les Binet say this the other day, uh, and he basically does that thing where he says, like, listen, through all the talk, we need to remember advertising is like a trivial thing, it's not a big thing in other people's lives. Like normal people don't think about ads very much, they possibly mostly don't even like ads very much. So if you that can be quite uh hurtful thing, but if you start with that, then you start thinking, well, if my ad is going to interrupt someone's life and it's gonna stand a chance of getting their attention, well, getting their attention is one thing, but like them feeling good towards you despite the fact that you interrupted their life, that's quite an art. So ideally, you need to do it by being entertaining or useful. Um, and I you know, you do see some ads like John Lewis is sort of famous for doing those real tearjerker. But yeah, there's some that's an event.

Will Ockenden 18:55

That's sort of Christmas one. One of the ads that's that's an event and a new, you know, it's a big news item every year.

Chris Norton 19:00

That's the only one I can think of though, every year. That really the the the John Lewis one, and now the Coca-Cola one, because they've just done the AI one and everybody was like everybody talking up and down and Jaguars, a rebrand that actually that went so well and everybody loved it so much.

Dom Dwight 19:13

Some of those examples, like, does a does a normal person outside of our industry talk about those things?

Chris Norton 19:19

Outside Adland.

Dom Dwight 19:20

Outside Adland. Did anyone think that?

Will Ockenden 19:21

We do we do it just in the bubble half the time, and that's that's terrible, isn't it?

Dom Dwight 19:25

I just want to go back quickly to the the point I was gonna make about the emotive ads, is like the John Lewis at their best, some of the best ads ever. But what it felt like it encouraged was like if you're gonna make an ad that's gonna win people's attention and then win their sort of hearts and minds, you have to tug on their heartstrings. And that is one way that you can do it, but it's not the only way. And that feels like that's a weird thing that's happened is everyone thinks, oh, if you're gonna do a meaningful ad, it's gotta make you cry. And I was just like, what about ads that could make you laugh? Entertaining. Yeah, yeah. So I I I think that's I do feel like it's a thing that Yorkshire Tea has been sort of fighting a lone fight to say, let's make funnier ads.

Chris Norton 19:58

Yeah, because what happened to the John Smith's ads that Peter Kay used to do, they they were an event. And they were they used to do a new advert that would come out, like the football one, the diving one where he walks up to the diving board, gets to the top, and just bottoms up.

Will Ockenden 20:10

We're gonna have to show a snippet of some classic ads, I think.

Chris Norton 20:13

Yeah, let's let's put a couple of the they didn't put a word in for our, you know, shouldn't do this really, but I guess I'm freer to do it now. Um like PG Tips in the day did some amazing ads. They had a particular high point, I think, when they had like Monkey and Johnny Vegas. Monkey! Yeah, yeah. That one.

Speaker 20:29

Yeah.

Chris Norton 20:30

I won't do any more impressions.

Will Ockenden 20:31

That's what you're so I'm not even gonna try. Something I'm curious about, and I'm gonna take you 18 years back into the past now. So you talked about this kind of great culture that exists at Taylor's. I suppose 18 years ago, when you joined the organization, uh I don't know what you can maybe talk through what level you joined it at. I'm I'm fascinated, and I'm sure our listeners will be fascinated in how you know, whether it was considered, particularly Yorkshire Tea, a challenger brand then, whether you consciously um lent into becoming a challenger brand and how you did that. Because there'll be people listening to this with aspirations of being a challenger brand, and they'll be looking at you as a kind of best practice playbook in terms of how to do that. So talk us through what things were like 18 years ago, yeah, okay, and how you got to that point.

Dom Dwight 21:16

Uh so like probably just a very quick bit of background before you. So I was working in magazine journalism, like local. I was working in Leeds. Uh, a lot of it was food and drink writing, but it was like a terrible business model that was getting gradually destroyed by Google. So I needed to get a better paying job. And then I got a job at Betty's and Taylor's lovely family business, does great food and drink stuff, so that was the connection. But the job was creative copywriter, which I think was quite an unusual role for a business of that size to have. It shows that they're a bit different and quite imaginative. And then when I got in, the thing that happened was um I it was just right place, right time. Social media and brands was just starting to happen, and that was my way in, really. I I kind of raised the fact that I could. see all this interesting chat going on and that we were not part of it and we should be. So that's how I kind of got um Yorkshire Teaea started on social. That's back in 2008. But a big part of that was down to some really open-minded bosses who like placed a lot of faith and trust in me and created the sort of space for people to be kind of curious and explore stuff without needing to have an absolute lockdown plan of how it's going to work. But I I don't know that back then that the organization saw itself as a challenger brand and just did things its own way. And probably this is one of those crucial things about being a challenger brand is at the beginning like you shouldn't be overly preoccupied with who your competitors are and trying to be different. Just focus on being who you are it would be my thing.

Will Ockenden 22:47

And it sounds like the foundations are already there as a business. You know maybe they didn't like you say they didn't necessarily view themselves as a challenger brand but actually the fact they hired you in that position, they're open to ideas, all of it was there already, wasn't it?

Dom Dwight 22:59

I think so. I mean because in on the other hand the business is it's owned by a family who are a lovely group of people that have like really deeply held values. But I would have said back then they're actually relatively small c conservative like quite cautious um quite modest which is obviously quite difficult when you're doing marketing and I think it took a while to kind of build up the confidence that we should be out there we should be a bit louder we should be a bit braver. So definitely you know back in the early days I don't think the ambition for Yorkshire tea was to one day become the number one tea in the UK. I think that was a preposterous idea. And it almost might have been a distasteful idea because to be that big you might have had to behave in a way that no one wanted to compromise on values. And I think the real super power for Yorkshire tea was that the actual focus was to be the best tea flavour. Well like the best all round. So the best products the best flavour but also like behave the best. So treat customers the best in terms of like we treated them honestly with authenticity there were no gimmicks and also behind the scenes like the way that the tea is bought with the people the farmers that we work with the what the way that the ethical side perceived in yeah and the sustainability side so I I think this sort of focus on doing it right and being the best and if becoming number one becoming the biggest is that's like a byproduct of being the best.

Chris Norton 24:21

Being good at what you do. Yeah yeah so stick to stick to focusing on yourself and making the best possible product you can rather I'm gonna mess it up but there's a great quote from I think it's Dolly Parton you heard that quote of um no one's ever quoted Dolly Parton okay well there you go I'm proud to work in 95 find out who you are and then be that on purpose. Okay.

Dom Dwight 24:42

I'm still waiting to really get to know like who you are but be more preoccupied with like what you really are what you really care about what you really want to do rather than comparing yourself to others to figure it out.

Will Ockenden 24:55

At what point did you realize there's um so much kind of brand love around around the brand I mean because anecdotally you know I've been in rooms or meetings when people have been passionately arguing that they will only drink Yorkshire tea. Yeah it's and it's so emotive isn't it so you know has it always been like that or did you start to kind of when social media started emerging did you start to see those conversations and those narratives?

Dom Dwight 26:40

Well it's a bit of both actually like I think um one of the things I kind of gradually well I learned quite quickly about the world of tea when I started to get involved was it's one of those things where back then it was ever since very very habitual and sort of subconscious. So most people don't really think about like why they drink the tea they drink they just do. And they often drink it because it's what they grew up drinking, which means it's probably the tea that their mum bought. So if you started a conversation about you shouldn't drink that tea you should drink this tea because the tea you're currently drinking is rubbish you're essentially having to go at that person's mum which is I would say is not a great way to relationship. So that was one part and then um the thing that was definitely true was like I felt like I sort of showed a window into this world of social media where the brand love was there for all to see. And I think it was more passionate and more like human and quirky um in in sort of different ways that maybe the business had the the sort of self-image that we had of what York City is changed once we started to see how it was spoken about on social media because I think it loosened the business up and it went from being a relatively traditional and sort of understated brand to realizing that the love that's out there was kind of mad.

Social Media Now Feels Different

Chris Norton 27:56

So we kind of started to lean into that the prop what's what's beautiful there is you're doing like the proper in customer insight which is what we've always done like reports for clients we worked with Ron Seal we've worked with very and we you know when we did the analysis of Ron Seal that came out on their social media was does exactly and it's the only brand I've ever seen that the actual strap line come out in the social media analysis. But what you're doing there is you're you you're not just looking because a lot of a lot of marketers are busy their teams are busy and they'll probably look at their own feeds they update their feeds they put out all the multiple content on the multiple channels that they've got they deal with any questions that they've got and then they crack on with their day. Whereas it sounds to me like what you're doing is you're looking further and wider and how people are using the packet where it's and where pictures of the product are ending up completely I mean it's probably easier to do with Google Lens and things like that to find how people have like taken a picture of Yorkshire tea you could probably do a quick search straight away.

Dom Dwight 28:50

I just don't even know if you I mean I'm I don't want to rubbish like data and research and all those things, especially when you're a massive brand and you've got to look across loads of territories but there's just still something to be said for like actually immersing yourself in like the sort of rough and ready like organic world of like how are people just talking yeah talking about your brand talking about your category talking about their lives and I think it's one of those things where everyone can probably quite you know reasonably say I'm way too busy to spend time like pouring through social media to find that stuff out and I just think oh that's a shame because that is where the gold is that's where the nuggets are yeah exactly.

Prime Minister Posts And Twitter Pile-Ons

Will Ockenden 29:28

Well we've done I mean uh we you know we've done numerous podcasts on kind of customer understanding and things and everybody talks about speak to your customers you know you don't necessarily have to do the huge data analysis there's a place for that but sometimes having those conversations with customers is is gold isn't it I think the challenge now though is um you know I'm I I'm just conscious I'm painting quite a rosy sort of view of like how doable it is how good it is the challenge for me is I know other organizations maybe can't gear themselves up to do that that easily and I would just be saying find a way but the the flip

Dom Dwight 30:02

side is I'd like social media is just not what it was like if I'm being honest it is easier to convince yourself like the world's going to hell if you read social media.

Chris Norton 30:12

Oh yeah.

Dom Dwight 30:13

Whereas 10 years ago it was a like Twitter used to be a brilliant place to spend time. It was actually hard to get off it because it was so like addictively interesting. Yeah. Whereas now it's kind of addictive in the same way that looking at a car crash is addictive it's bad. And I just think it's um it's important then if you are going to spend time on social media, whether it's actually on behalf of a brand or even just as an individual trying to figure out what was going on in the world is just remind yourself that it's not all real. And that there's a lot of box there's a lot of trolls there's a lot of bad faith actors saying stuff they don't really mean.

Chris Norton 30:46

Yes. So the challenge now is trying to sift through all that noise to find and channels as well like TikTok TikTok is the amount of Gen Z and Alpha that are using TikTok as their number one search engine. Yeah yeah and then you've got people using Chat GPT and all the other LLMs to find your brand and talk about your brand and it's it's it's a fascinating world we live in but I don't think I don't think the world's on fire yet just yet.

Dom Dwight 31:10

No no but it's um it could be by the time this podcast airs bits of the world have probably caught fire in the time we've been talking if um Mr Trump's had anything to do with it and talk talking about fires um

Chris Norton 31:22

you've had a few mistakes yourself. So I mean one of the mistakes includes uh an ex-prime minister doesn't it?

Dom Dwight 31:28

Yes yeah yeah uh yeah is I was thinking about this um as I was trying to get my head around like which ones am I prepared to admit to and things I've definitely got this annoying tendency that even if I do make a mistake like to keep going and find a way to turn it into a good thing. So a lot of the things I would call mistakes I then think I don't look back on them negatively though because it led to something interesting. But um there have been a few so like we've got a we're on a bit of a roll with or I keep saying we even though I've left I can't get out of the habit so they uh are on a roll. But back when I was working at Taylor's uh in the really early days when I was managing the social media myself we had uh the then Prime Minister David Cameron came to our factory to do one of his like tours where he listened to people on the factory floor and took questions which is like a good thing to do regardless of whether you liked him or not. And we kind of excitedly said he's come to visit and I just was not prepared for the fact that like that would come across like we were um condoning him that we were sort of you know sort of arguing for every element of Tory policy. Yeah and we got the absolute shit kicked out of us. And then um we didn't learn because like probably five or six years later maybe it's a bit longer um this time we didn't do it. But um Rishi Sunak before he was Prime Minister when he was Chancellor posted a picture of himself with a big bag of Yorkshire tea just saying that he was making tea for his um team in his constituency. And you know like we've got to take the rough with the smooth I think we benefited as a brand so many times from celebrities with none nothing from our part no saying I'm having a cup of Yorkshire tea and we get loads of love for it.

Chris Norton 33:12

Yeah.

Dom Dwight 33:12

But when Rishi did it we didn't get loads of love we just got battered that's the second David Cameron story we've had on the podcast enough money.

Will Ockenden 33:20

Yeah but that's that's interesting I mean do you you know when when um you know Cameron visits you guys Rishi shares a post do you lean into that do you how do you how do you stay kind of neutral because obviously approximately 50% of the population are going to be behind that. 50% are going to think it's an absolute outrage that you're um selling teabags to Rishi Sunak and his team. Yeah. How do you deal with that or do you just kind of um try and be as neutral as possible?

Dom Dwight 33:48

Yeah we do try and be as neutral as possible but you've also got to be kind of genuine haven so I think what we did with the Rishi thing was we didn't want to take a side we just wanted to point out to people that like this is just a guy posting a picture of a product he's bought in a supermarket like we didn't get involved they don't when if you if any one of us want to do that you don't have to write to the brand to say I'd like to show this box of cereal you just show it and uh but people just didn't want to hear it and instead just took it as like we're really angry that Yorkshire tea this brand we love has suddenly took signs. And really the mistake was if if we did make a mistake I think it was that we didn't sort of take that seriously enough when it first happened so Tom our like amazing social media guy like he tried to play it down with humour and said oh look we didn't do this and we certainly wouldn't do something like this at four o'clock on Friday afternoon. Yeah um thinking he could kind of diffuse the situation and uh it just didn't and then the weekend happened and it carried on going actually it carried on going in kind of such a mad way so Tom poor Tom was like on the receiving end of loads of hate for two and a half days and on Monday not him personally so that through the Orchestra through the Orksha T actually that's the link to what I was going to say next is eventually we sort of took the sort of break in the fourth wall move. Tom said look like fair enough everyone's entitled to their opinion but just remember like there is a human being on the Twitter account and let's try and be nice to each other which was a I thought was a really lovely and important moment. But what was weird was that quite a lot of people saw that and went this is a really important moment. It's like look at what we've become and it became a talking point. Right. So although it was a nice thing it like it didn't take the air out of the conversation it breathed more air into the conversation so it kept going. And then um classic Twitter pylon. Yeah it was a Twitter pylon that kind of kept snowballing. And then eventually at one point the following day there was this I need to tell you this last bit because it's my favorite part of the story um there was this lady who has just been really really angry and every tweet that she sent to us was in block capitals and she just was not listening to anything we said back to her. So eventually we said and this lady was called Sue we just said Sue you're shouting at tea please just you know take a break and go and look after yourself but like you're trying to end the conversation and it did end the conversation but it started another one because so many people were like Sue You're shouting at tea became this kind of emblematic but then that hits the meme. This is like this shows you what the internet has become but it's true isn't it yeah people made t-shirts of it that would get imprinted on mugs. So that some guy actually who writes lots of music uh had written a song with Sue You're Shouting at Tea as the chorus.

Will Ockenden 36:28

So with a line like that some brands would um they'd call the agency they'd get copywriters in they'd get go through was was that an example of um community manager that that operates within the parameters you've set but has a degree of autonomy post to great great piece of content.

Disruption That Is Actually Real

Dom Dwight 36:44

And I think what was lovely though is because there's not like this kind of controlling risk averse culture like Tom had the freedom within those parameters to know what to do. Yeah but he also we had the open pressure though. It is so I think the other thing is it's not like you're on your own mate. He also uh used to either speak to me or he'd speak to the head of comms you know and knowing that he's not going to get in trouble if he like reaches out says I am not sure how to handle this. What do you think? And it would be like a a like more relaxed conversation around what's the best thing to do rather than 10 stages of a formula.

Chris Norton 37:15

But it's it's the balance of humour trying to get huge because you you're a humorous brand you're trying to get the humour across but sometimes humour can just like be inflammatory. And let's face it Will's right like 50% of Twitter are going to pile on one way or the other um so it just shows that or so nowadays. Oh yeah well yeah I mean that's probably it's gone drinks there drinks let's not go there no let's not do politics it isn't a political show we don't I hope whatever he drinks he likes it we don't endorse any we don't endorse any political party so we don't want to apart from the monster rave I know I know we that's the last thing we need um so I know we've we've sort of touched on this and um you know brands I I think some brands um treat being uh disruptive superficially they're not really a disruptive company and they say we need to be disruptive but let's say a brand is genuinely disruptive in some respects you know the way that they may be unconventional

Will Ockenden 38:12

in the way they're set up what would you say to them if they want to lean in and really kind of grow their disruptive position in the market what sort of two or three tips would you give them um well I you've kind of like started with the main one which is like just be honest with yourselves like is it an act or are you for real?

Dom Dwight 38:31

Because people see through it. Yeah they'll see through it but also like you'll get into trouble. Like if you think you want to be disruptive on social and in the modern communications landscape but your organization isn't really like that like you'll get found out because you stick your head I I actually think it's good for more brands to stick their head above the parapet whether that is by just being like brave and open and um authentic or whether it's even like a brand like Ryanair is really chippy isn't it it's like it can be quite snarky with people. And I I uh I actually quite admire that because it's like and that comes directly from Michael E. Learn it's really what I was going to say is like you can draw a straight line between the way they behave on social and the founder the owner who ultimately makes the big pulls and I think well great that's great because imagine if it wasn't the case imagine if they were being like that on Twitter and then every now and then when they got into serious trouble and the CEO need to step forward they were just like a really boring grey like the um London Macdonald CEO. Yeah.

Chris Norton 39:30

Oh have you seen the AI version of that? There's an AI version that's come out you know he eats the burger and it's really awkward. Yes I've seen have you seen the AI version it's just come out I'm starving I haven't had my nutrient paste for three hours and he's like that they're like they're all like stop he's like quit quit and he's like throws it in the bin and then all the all the camera crew go lunchtime and they're all going big burger king out.

Dom Dwight 39:52

It's brilliant. Do you know like I think that's the other thing isn't it it's like uh it's a bit of a cliche to compare social media to like being down the pub and the kind of general banter that would have been going on but one of the things is if you want to be part of that kind of conversation you've got to be up for it which means like you've got something to say but you've also got to be up for it in terms you've got to be ready to take a joke. Yeah be ready to be the butt of the joke you've got to be ready for the conversation to go in a way you didn't predict and some people think they're up for it but then when that happens they clam you know they they suddenly um panic and slight want to seize control and I just think well if that's what you're gonna do then you're better off not getting involved.

Chris Norton 40:32

Nothing beats a Jet 2 holiday that's like that's very 2025 isn't it yeah yeah the that's a really tricky I mean we talked about that one endlessly in the office haven't we yeah balance the balancing act it was covered in PR week as well. What's your view I'm fascinated actually to what you're gonna say to this what's your view to kind of brands playfully attacking each other i.e Aldi going for M&S is that is that a bit tiresome now I find it a little bit tiresome I do find it a bit tired.

Dom Dwight 41:00

I actually remember there was I think it may be like 2015 or 2016 we had one of the first experiences of like branded banter which is where somebody said something and they they name checked Jaffa Cakes Yorkshire tea and I think Tesco at the time and it led to this like weird two day like banter thon about whether like which were the right biscuits to dip in your tea and things like that. And then loads of brands kept trying to join in the conversation and it was like honestly we were completely sucked into it. We thought it was the coolest thing that ever happened like 10 years later I was like it's not cool. What a weird world I don't think consumers really care about it.

Chris Norton 41:37

Is that part of your social media thing will it dunk? Which was uh no no that was years later.

Long Agency Relationships That Compound

Dom Dwight 41:41

Which was inspired by will it blend from what I could tell is that is that fairly we can't say but no so um yeah because I think you know I'd I I've seen Aldi and M&S or you know Aldi hilariously sent Colin the caterpillar past M&S headquarters and I just think come on like this is a bit 10 years ago isn't it a lot of not just social media I guess like online content uh there's probably a first wave where it's a it's original thinking where it's great and then the reality is that maybe doesn't reach most of the world and then everyone cottons onto it and they imitate it. And then if you were there for the original bit you see it as the imitation and you think it's contrived and it's shit. Probably the truth is it's still quite effective because you've reached a whole load of people that didn't see the other it's just a bit self-cong congratulatory within again this is the marketing bubble isn't it you know there's lots of um sort of marketing blogs and it's social networks talking about how clever this is I think it's one of the biggest risks in marketing and and and and just like the sort of communications industry is that it's a bit too easy to sort of fall in love with it and be obsessed with it and talk about and it becomes just a very internal conversation and you lose perspective as to like whether anyone else outside our bubble is even listening. Yeah true and we're just preaching to the converted yeah yeah I think the one thing I'd say about the Aldi thing in their defence I think Aldi and Lidl actually they are if you take the comms part like they behave in a challengeabout way. So they'll they'll go as close as they can to copying uh like another brand's IP often over the line but I think they're quite skilled at trying to find that line and then they lean into it with the way they behave online and I think like sort of credit to them for not pretending to be something they're not and and when they do it online it is actually backed up by what they're doing in real life.

Chris Norton 43:32

Yeah because I've tried the is it it's the Ald Aldi Maretti that that literally is called beer maratta or something. Yeah beer propeller it's called yeah and it's literally looks like exactly the same pack and I saw the reason why I tried it is because I saw two two like beer specialists trying all the beers and they were lagers and then they were saying this tastes we can't actually tell the difference between this one and this one. And you're like okay I've got to try that and it's like one pound sixty a bottle or something.

Dom Dwight 43:58

Yeah when you're the brand being copied it's really annoying insulting makes you feel really like uncomfortable.

Will Ockenden 44:04

Yeah because I had a clash with uh Heck Sausages which is a great brand you know really Yorkshire brand as well and they basically did a knockoff of and I can understand how frustrating that must be I mean I must admit Aldi in particular their buyers are in are absolutely amazing like um the the the way they get trending products I mean yeah I I went to Pete I mean an example of this is um I went to Pizza Pilgrims and they do like a nine cheese pizza which is amazing and it's got a big ball of barata in the middle and it's like they're big selling pizza next week I started seeing barata appearing which you never see in any supermarket suddenly barata's appearing in Aldi and they've obviously got such amazing insight haven't they?

Dom Dwight 44:43

Well the old fashioned way of seeing those two is to sort of write them off as discounters whereas actually they're just like disruptors. Yeah and I I think like one of the things that's so incredible about them is just the speed with which they can turn and oh it's unbelievable.

Chris Norton 44:55

Well one of the questions I've got for you Dom is um about agency relationships because you were in the job for 18 years.

Dom Dwight 45:02

Yeah.

Chris Norton 45:03

How long were you working with Lucky Generals for?

Dom Dwight 45:05

Uh so we started working with them in 2016. So yeah 10 years.

Chris Norton 45:09

Which is amazing strong and that and I think I've heard this before that like um I've heard various marketing gurus talk about the fact that if you stay with your agency, the the compound in interest of working with that creative team builds and builds and builds rather than just swapping three years. But then the the issue is most CO CMOs and marketing directors, what is the average length? Is it three to three years? Something like that. Two and a half to six. Not 18 years. So they benefited.

Will Ockenden 45:39

So is that an illustration of you being in the role for a long time? Therefore you've got longstanding you've had longstanding extra.

Dom Dwight 45:45

Although like uh sometimes when I'm telling this story I do feel really conscious that it I make it like it's all about me and there was no one else involved. You know, and obviously you name check lucky generals and things but there's loads of other people. So the other source of like consistency is the people that are still in the team now. So um there's a few people I'd call out like Ben Newbery who's head of marketing for York City. So he's basically the senior most marketer at Taylor's now um and then his right hand woman uh Lucy Hoyle like they've worked on the brand for I actually can't remember now at least probably 10 years now as well. And then you've got various senior leaders across the business. You've got key salespeople that have all been there like eight to ten years or even longer. So it wasn't just my sort of longevity or my consistency. I think that organization as a whole tended to attract people that then wanted to stay because they believed in what we were doing.

Who To Watch Next And Where To Find Dom

Chris Norton 46:38

It's amazing amazing that's that you don't we don't tend to get that you've got some clients we've had here for 10 years but we that's is more of a rarity than most people you know five years is a decent time and then you use they usually move someone changes their your your client changes their job and lo and behold the PR contract's up.

Dom Dwight 46:55

The other thing that was great though was like when we started working with Lucky Generals one of the things I really loved about them was that they weren't um quite as sort of egotistical as I'd been lent to think all ad agencies are and they were um really respectful for the previous agencies' work. Including like the fact that we'd landed on this idea of properness. They just felt like there was a slightly different way to use properness to really reach out to audiences we hadn't cut through to yet but they didn't want to throw properness away and start from scratch. So that's another form of interest right is like when interest if you don't have the longevity of like the next the the person just stays in role forever. Yeah it's like have you built something good that means when the next person comes along they feel like it would be crazy to scrap it and start with something else and they want to build on it instead. Amazing yeah I I get that that's quite rare. It's just it's just yeah it is and sometimes you know it's also rare because it's like you have to be confident you know you're like is this working or not? And it the temptation to think let's just sort of redesign the brand let's do a completely new ad campaign can be really strong.

Chris Norton 47:58

A refresh not a rebrand yeah evolution not

Will Ockenden 48:02

revolution well this has been a an absolutely fascinating chat I think it's it's been quite wide ranging and we've really dived into your role in building a challenger brand which I think people will find absolutely fascinating. One question we always ask people on the pod and I'm going to put you under the sp under pressure a bit here is um if we could invite another guest on the show who would you recommend we speak to apart from the head of comms at Aldi I mean that would be good let's thank you I'll drop him a line I uh yes there's a couple of people I've been um talking to recently I really I'm really interested do you know the flower delivery company Bloom and Wild oh yeah um so Charlotte at Bloom and Wild another Charleston brand yeah and it's but it's like a really interesting world because you've got like sort of DTC and e-commerce which can be really really impersonal.

Fixing X And Final Laughs

Dom Dwight 48:52

And then you've got flowers which is just like the most like rational but emotionally significant sort of thing I can think of and I just really love what they're doing trying to create this kind of like brand that's got a real connection with its customers I think I think that's really interesting. And then I think maybe the uh the other brand that I kind of keep an eye on and think I love for what they do is um Virgin Atlantic and I just think in the world of airlines like because I've got this big thing about I really I think Yorkstee has done well because one of the things about it is it's got this like really distinctively human feel to the way it behaves. So I've been looking recently to think like who else has got that about them and I when you compare Virgin with some of the other airlines like I just think they do a lot to kind of like the customer experience and their staff like to get across that they're they're not just a brand they're a company filled with people like lovely people who are all on one sort of working on the same mission.

Will Ockenden 49:47

Bloom and wild are always in the playbook of best practice of who's doing it in in in the sector fantastic.

Chris Norton 49:54

Really good really enjoyed that how how can how can people get hold of you if they wanted to dumb?

Dom Dwight 50:00

Probably I mean it I know it can be a bit of a cringy place but it's like one of the last bits of the internet that isn't on fire but LinkedIn okay like I'm I'm all over that right now so come find me.

Chris Norton 50:09

Okay. Yeah great.

Will Ockenden 50:10

You got open to work on your profile I might have he is open to work and if there was one brand the final question final final question if there was one brand that you you've talked about brands you'd like to work with if there's one brand that you think you could make the biggest impact on because it's not acting in the right way I well okay right given that my career I sort of owe my career to Twitter because that was the way into marketing and I loved it and it makes me deeply deeply sad

Dom Dwight 50:42

to see the absolute binfire that it's become as X. So if you could put me in charge of X. I would fix it.

Chris Norton 50:50

Okay that's a call to Elon Musk we're quick can can you give Don a job he's gonna help you. I think I think we might have a few differences of opinion I'm predicting that you're gonna be walking out with the sink after about 24 hours. Probably smashed over my head yeah