EP 110: Most Creative Directors Are Never Told What Their Job Is | Mick Mahoney

Most creative directors are never told what their job actually is.

That confusion leads to imposter syndrome, burnout and years of silent mistakes at the top of agencies.

In this episode of Embracing Marketing Mistakes, we sit down with Mick Mahoney, one of the most experienced creative leaders in advertising. Mick spent over 25 years as a Creative Director, Executive Creative Director and Chief Creative Officer at agencies including Ogilvy and BBH.

He has led award-winning teams, topped creative rankings and worked alongside some of the biggest names in the industry. Despite that success, Mick openly admits that for much of his career he felt like he was winging it.

We talk about the real job of a creative director, why no one ever defines it, and how that lack of clarity fuels ego, micromanagement and burnout. Mick shares the mistakes he made early on, the clients he lost, and the leadership lessons that only come from experience.

This is an honest conversation about empathy, psychological safety, confidence and what creative leadership actually looks like when you strip away the posturing.

If you lead creative people, manage senior teams or feel the pressure of needing to have all the answers, this episode will resonate.

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Transcript

Welcome And The Book’s Premise

Chris Norton 0:00

Today's guest has spent more than 25 years at the top of the advertising game. I was always on that campaign list of top creative directors. Yeah, he'll tell you that most creative directors do not have a clue what their job actually is.

Mick Mahoney 0:14

The real issue is that most creative directors don't know what they're supposed to do either.

Chris Norton 0:18

He's led our agencies like Ogilvy and BBH, worked alongside some of the industry's biggest names, and has now written the complete creative director, which is basically a brutally honest guide born out of confusion. You know, like you get these sort of the five things every creative director must do every day. Imposter syndrome, anxiety, triumph, and a ton of mistakes, which is great for this show.

Mick Mahoney 0:42

I'm admitting to all the times I didn't know, I'm admitting to all the times I'm messed up.

Chris Norton 0:47

He cuts through what he calls the bollocks and talks about the real job, empathy, confidence, psychological safety, and making people actually feel something at the end of your campaigns. So if you've ever been worried about your role in the creative industry or if you're a creative director and sometimes you do struggle with imposter syndrome, this conversation is going to be for you. So let's get into it. This is my conversation with Mick Mahoney. Enjoy Mick Mahoney, welcome to the show. Thank you, Chris. Thank you for doing this. We interviewed your mate last week, um, Kevin Chesters, who came on the show and had some belting stories and nothing but good things to say about you. And actually, weirdly, I um I was on LinkedIn, just check it before this interview, and I saw that you've had a previous, you were just with a previous guest, both of you last week. Uh somebody that I've known for years, um Marshall Anton. Yeah.

Mick Mahoney 1:50

Yeah, love Marshall.

Chris Norton 1:51

I don't know if you know him.

Mick Mahoney 1:52

We used to work with we work with him at um Ogilvy, so we've known him about 10 years. Um yeah, he is uh he's lovely fellow. Yeah, he's brilliant. Uh he actually was one of the first people to sort of really identify the the connection between Kev and I.

Chris Norton 2:10

Really?

Mick Mahoney 2:11

Uh because Kev and I met literally 10 years ago today. Really well, pretty much. I mean, like for the sake of a good story, right? But like give or take a week or so, you know, we we've literally met about 10 years ago, and uh it was just one of those weird sort of connections. We just got on like a house on fire from day one. Um and I think within about 10 days of us meeting, we were working together on this big project with Matt Marshall. And Marshall was saying, Jesus, how long have you two guys known each other? Like you've got such a light of chemistry. We said literally, we've known each other for about 10 days. It's amazing. Um, he's great, Marshall. And yeah, Marshall's good man, top man. Um, uh, and Kim and I have sort of been you know best working buddies and best mates ever since, wouldn't you?

Chris Norton 3:02

Yeah, so you you you've just launched a book which I'm three-quarters of the way through. Um, and the the book's the book's called The Creative Director. Is that correct?

Mick Mahoney 3:12

The complete creative director.

Why The Creative Director Role Confuses

Chris Norton 3:14

You can tell I've I've read it now. What I like about the book is the way that you treat the book is you've done several interviews and you've you've got like direct quotes. Hey, that's it makes it easier to read because there's a big quote on the other page, which I quite like. Um and it's sort of like you pulled out the sound bites from what people have said. But I tell you what, I'm I've worked in PR all my life, right? And um, I did marketing at college, and I actually taught public relations and journalism at unit. And I have never known really what a creative director does. And I thought it was just me. I just thought, oh, they're the guys that stick on their glasses and pontificate and then take out.

Mick Mahoney 3:53

The issue, the the real issue is that most creative directors don't know what they're supposed to do either. And and I don't mean that in any sense in a pejorative way. I mean it in there's a there's genuinely a confusion around the role. You know, there's a I've never been given a job spec. You know, I I was a creative director for over 25 years, you know, from a creative director to an ECD to a CCO to you know, every kind of creative leadership role in big agencies, small agencies, network agencies. Never once has anyone been able to give me a uh a job spec. It's just it's just the usual sort of slightly vacuous things about you're gonna push growth and challenge the culture. And yeah, all right, I'll do all of that. But what do you actually want me to do? What do I'm what am I doing on Tuesday? Like nobody ever explains, and and and so consequently, you you end up not really kind of knowing where your where your boundaries are, where your territory is, as such, and actually it leads to lots and lots of um uh mistakes, anxieties, you know, kind of nervousness, you know, like a bit of an identity crisis, you know, oh god, what am I actually supposed to be good at? What am I being judged on? Where should where do I push in? Where do I pull out? You know, it's it's why the job is so hard, and it's why I thought I'm just gonna write a book that lays a marker down for what is the job? What does it look like? Exactly. I mean, exactly. It's a start point. You can you can sort of argue with it, that's fine. I'm more than happy for that, but at least you've got like something to say, okay, well, this is what I should be doing, this is what I shouldn't be doing, this is what I should be good at, this is what I'm gonna need help with. Because no one had ever done it before. At every point in my career, I thought there's bound to be at some point some training, there's bound to be some help here. There's bound to be a sort of uh the 10 things you've got to be really, really good at, or the 10 things you need to do and think about. And and I and by the time LinkedIn became a thing, you know, like you get these sort of the five things every creative director must do every day, and they become really unhelpful. They because like they're not in context of anything. And I try to put the book into the context of the whole experience of being a creative director, you know, rather than just give all these little lists out of context of things, and you just end up losing even more confidence. You know, take risks, be brave. What when? What now? You know, or do I like yeah, but you just said to like be yeah, what and bold and brave, which we everybody's fine values, everyone's sad. In every in every meeting, shall I do that at every meeting? You know, uh, and so you know, it just honestly, all that stuff is just utter bollocks and really undermines the role. Um, uh because the role is um really complicated, and it is the most polymath role of all roles, you know, within the industry. Um and it's becoming more so, you know, the the the breadth of requirements for the role is getting bigger and bigger and bigger, you know, and it is getting it's just an incredibly hard role to to nail down and to find a way of you know so I also as well as the book, I turned the book into a well I I I use the book as the foundation really for to write the course for D&AD for creative directors. So I I give a six-week masterclass course on creative direction at D&A D. And and actually the best bits of it for me are really when we get to the Q ⁇ A's at the end of like each of the sessions, and you're starting to hear where all their real anxieties are, you know, and the things that are concerning them. And they're all so similar, so familiar, you know, but there's so many of these anxieties, not really understanding how to how to really kind of delegate, how to, you know, how to lead from the front if they're feeling quite quiet. There's so many of that similar things that nobody's ever really given anyone any help over. So that's kind of what I try and do now.

The Leader Shift From Me To Them

Chris Norton 8:17

I found the book a cathartic experience because I as I say I I'm not I'm not I don't I'm not a creative director, I'm a public relations person. I came from PR, but I work in marketing and have done all my career. But I was reading, I was going, this is what I do. This is exactly the creative director is exactly what I do, like managing teams. Um but in in PR, PR is slightly different in that you you deliver in PR, you deliver the tasks and often you do the work, and and then you get promoted. So you go start accounting exec, you go to account manager, you do you then you manage the account, you look after the client, you look after the team below you, then you get to account director, and then you that's then you then you make it to team director, and then you make it to and then you think it's shit. I don't do PR anymore. I'm just managing people and clients and I'm managing expectations of everybody.

Mick Mahoney 9:11

Chris, that that that transition is the is the key point, really. You know, it's going from that moment where it was all about you to the moment where it's all about them. Yeah, you know, it actually you get to a point where um your your success is a consequence of their success, you know, and actually it's it's all about responsibility, not power, you know, and it's it's having being able to control your own ego and actually your sense of you know what's been validating you for every you know for your whole career up until that point, and going, you know what, it's not about me anymore, it's about me creating the environment to enable you to be amazing. Because then when you're amazing, that reflects on me, and that is my success. Yeah, and that's that's a huge transition for anyone to make if they don't understand where their validation's coming from, if it's not from the work, which is why you get lots of creative directors that continue to micromanage or want to keep doing work because they they aren't sure where where else they get validation from, you know, and they become insecure as a consequence. And and therein lies the the greatest pitfall for most creative directors that you've ever come into contact with.

Speaker 10:25

Yeah, I mean, yeah, it's fascinating the creative director thing. So that I'm like Sam, I'm three quarters of the way through the book. I found it cathartic and I found it quite reassuring that there's so many people out there going through because you describe all these agencies, it's like see Creative Directorate droga and all the uncommon, and I'm like, yep, that's what I do, that's what I do, and there's like all the different worries that they've got, and how you that actually, Chris, that's been one of the things that's come out of it really strongly from listening to my students on the course um all saying the same thing.

Mick Mahoney 10:58

They're saying literally one of the best things they get from the course is hearing me say I made all the same mistakes, you know, and and I did like that book is just it's a it's a kind of a life lesson for me, you know. It's it was cathartic for me to write it because and I felt really vulnerable writing it, you know. I even said to my wife, well you well, yeah, because I'm I'm admitting to all the times I didn't know, I'm admitting to all the times I messed up, I and all the times I felt a bit, you know, like clueless about everything. And you sort of think, what I wanted to do is put it out there and say to everyone, like I felt that way too, you know, and I was a CCO and I was always on that campaign list of top creative directors, you know. I I was on that list for every agency I was you know in control of as a creative leader. Um and honestly, I should just think most of the time, I haven't got a clue what I'm doing. I haven't. You know, I I really don't I don't know if I'm doing the right thing or not because I don't know what the right thing looks like. So I'll just do what I think is the right thing to do. And you know, I'm quite um what's the word? Plausible. You know, I I think that's I I think that's probably my key skill in life is that I'm plausible. Um and I think that's that's really tough to to feel that you're winging it, because obviously that whole kind of thing of um uh what's it called? Uh you know, when you feel like you're making it all up as you go along. Um imposter syndrome is huge amongst creative directors, but creative directors don't open up. You know, never once have I sat in a room with my fellow creative directors at awards dues or judging or any other kind of event, and we've all gone, I really don't know what I'm doing about this thing. How do you do that? How do you do that? Like, because we all go, No, no, no, yeah, no, I've got that, and it's easy, yeah, yeah, and uh, I don't even think about it. I just it's just intuitive for me. It's ego, you know, isn't it? It's ego. It it's fear, honestly. There's a lot of fear involved because you don't want to look like the one that doesn't want that doesn't know. You know, you don't want to look like the one that can't, you don't want to look like the one that finds it difficult, you know. You just you you don't want to expose your weaknesses because like no creative director is your friend, right?

Chris Norton 13:31

If you're a creative director, really you're all against each other, you know what I mean? Yeah, kind of if you're a competitor, yes and no.

Mick Mahoney 13:39

That's true and it's not true. It's it's true insofar as it's an extremely competitive space to be in. It's not true insofar as creative directors aren't nice to each other, because they are, they're they're both mostly really lovely, empathetic kind of characters, but you know, still you've got to look out for yourself, you know, and you've got to be successful in your own right. So it's just an insanely competitive space. So ultimately, if I know that you've got weaknesses in certain areas and they happen to be my strengths, and I'm my agency's working against you, or I want to hire someone that works in your department, or you know, whatever, whatever, I I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna I'm gonna use that advantage.

Chris Norton 14:23

Maybe that's because I'm in up in the the north of the UK, like I don't really see that. And then like I I think at when I was teaching at uni and stuff, I used to say that to my students, like, I don't really know all the time, I'm learning on the job all the time, you know. Like that's what I love about what I mean. I've I fucked up more things than I can count I can count on one hand, definitely, because I've started to podcast all about mistakes, and I think it's good to learn from failures and where you've gone gone wrong. Well, I loved one of the bits that you just mentioned is in the book, is where you um you said you don't know, and you said you'd literally be on a new business call with somebody and say, Yeah, yeah, yeah, I've got it. I've got it, absolutely. I'm I'm on to this, and then you'd end the call and go, I'm not gonna I'm not gonna fucking go about doing it. Like, and and I but by the time I get to the pitch, I'll know exactly what I'm doing. And literally, I was on a new business call about an hour ago, and I was on calling, I haven't got the answers yet. And then I said, But in two weeks' time, I'm gonna have all the answers for you. So I see I will book it full. And I literally quoted you from the book, and I thought, it's true, why not just be honest about that? Like, because you don't need to have the answers on the brief, do you? They want you to think about it.

A Practical Creative Process Explained

Mick Mahoney 15:34

No, but sometimes no, I I thought I think everyone's gotta do their own, you know, take their own sort of path. But for me, it was always easier just to be open and honest about it. And what I found is, you know, I I think I would you know quite often be called disarming, and and all that really means is I'm willing to admit to the things I'm not very good at or don't know the answers to, you know, in a world where everybody's kind of yeah, no, we you know, smashed it, it's amazing. We you know, we've we've got this, yeah. I know exactly what sometimes you go, honestly, I'm not sure, but I will work it out, you know, and it and it sort of works. If you just it's about trying to be yourself, and and that is me naturally, you know. So I it really matters to try and be yourself because you'll get caught out by trying to be able to do that.

Chris Norton 16:25

One of the things that I've never nailed because uh ideas just come to me. How do you have a creative process, Mick, that you follow that helps you to get the best ideas, or do you just panic and get your best ideas right at the end uh after thinking about it for ages?

Mick Mahoney 16:42

No, I don't I I don't panic actually. Uh I I don't funnily enough. The um my next book actually that's coming out is one I'm done with Kev. Um the one that comes out after that, so it's coming out next year, is uh it's actually all about a creative process. It's it's explaining a creative process for people that aren't in the creative industries or you know aren't encouraged to do anything creative. Um and I looked into lots of creative processes, you know, because you know, everyone really, whether they know it or not, followees a creative process who does it professionally because you you can't leave it to chance if it's what you do for a living. You have to have a sense of how you approach things, and actually it always breaks down. I didn't realise I had a creative process for the first 20 years, um, but what I've realized looking back at it is that I do, you know, and it's the same creative process as as most people, in actual fact. You've just got to start by being really, really clear what it is you want to express, you know, and once you're really clear and you've got focus for it, then you look for inspiration for it. And then once you have that inspiration, you know, you can then kind of go wild with lots of amazing ideas in all different directions, and you go wide and wide, wide and wide, and so you just can't do anymore. You've like you're spent, and then you look at all these different things and you pick through it and pick out all the good bits, and you put them all together and you see, oh, actually that's quite interesting. A bit more work on that, a bit more work on that, a bit more work on that. You know, actually, these three or four are quite interesting, and then you sort of put them on a wall and you live with them for a little bit, or you sort of might ask someone else, like, what does that mean to you? Or how do you feel when you look at that and that kind of thing? And then you refine it a bit further, you get down to the best one or two, you know, the best two, say, you push them a little bit further, and at some point you've got to kill a kitten, right? Um, and then you just know that's the best one because it made you feel something, you know, you know it's something interesting and different, you know people react well to it, and and that's a pretty standard creative process that you know that we all go through. Um and it's it's pretty easy to it's pretty easy to follow and to replicate. Um and anytime you don't do it like that, you know, if you start off by not being absolutely crystal clear what it is you want to express, then you know you end up anywhere, couldn't you?

Empathy Safety And Better Creative Work

Chris Norton 19:18

Yeah. Um there's an assumption that great creatives make great leaders. But from what you've seen, what do you think? Is that true?

Mick Mahoney 20:51

No, that's not true. It's honestly not true. It's it's no predictor. It doesn't mean to say it can't be true, but it's not a predictor, it's not fair and safe. Um what I did for the book, you'll see um if you've really read the first three quarters of it. Um in the first chapter, I talk about the ten key kind of attributes of all successful creative directors. And and it's got a lot more to do with um empathy than it than it has anything else. You know, it it really has. Um you've obviously got to have really high sort of taste standards, you know. You've obviously also got to be really kind of driven. Um but if you're gonna be a really successful creative leader, that means you've got to be able to get a lot of people to want to follow you, a lot of people to want to give everything to do something great. You know, and you being a you know, a shouty pain isn't gonna you know, you're you're you can batter people into it, but they won't stay and they won't want to work for you, and there'll just be a culture of fear, and they'll just be second guessing and trying to give you what they think you want. That that isn't what you've got to do is have a load of people that feel psychologically safe to just try anything could do anything. I I always had a I I don't I can't actually remember if I mentioned it in the book, but certainly in the first book, Kevin and I do um this idea of fuck six, it's like my pet hate in life is uh six, like six out of ten, right? And because like five out of ten is the halfway point. So six out of ten is just a bit better than the middle point, which means no one ever got fired for a six out of ten because average six out of ten, yeah, but it's just slightly better than average, isn't it? Six out of ten. So most of the world is six out of ten, right? Most work you see is six out of ten, most anything is six out of ten. But I always used to say to the teams honestly, I'd rather see a one or a two that was in the honest pursuit of a nine or a ten than a six or a seven because I know that you're just playing safe and I'm not interested. I don't care how bad it is, as long as it's in the genuine pursuit of of something excellent. Because you can't be in pursuit of something excellent and not be willing to fail, right? Everyone knows that thing that you've got to be able to fail and there's you've got to allow for failure. Everyone says it, everyone agrees and nods, but no one actually creates the environment to enable it to happen, you know, because it's really tough in business to create a failure culture, you know. Um but actually it's really necessary for a good creative. Because the the difference between it being really great and really crap is like tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny.

Chris Norton 23:52

Yeah. Um yeah, I mean, you there's a bit in the book as well about conflict and creative conflict, and that's a good thing. But actually, when you were just referencing there, like shouty bosses. When I worked in an agency and we got what we acquired another agency, and my first experience of meeting the new C the CEO department had to be something out. And I came down, I walked down through the building, and I had to had my wife had collapsed, and she'd been taken to the hospital. She's all right, by the way. Um, she'd been taken to the hospital. I found out this is my first day working in this new environment. I had to go and see the set CEO, whatever. He was the boss basically. Went down to the design creative department um from the PR team, walked downstairs, and as I walked in, he went, Yes, it's effing this, effing that, and then kicked over this big pile of boxes. Do you remember the days when we used to make brochures and leaflets and stuff? Uh kicked them over and shouting and screaming at uh graphic designer because if they'd done something wrong, I can't worry about it. This girl of slightly. And I had to then ask, Do you mind if I go to hospitality? Um and it's I've never forgotten that. Like I will never I thought I'll never lead teams like that ever. Like trying to run a team through fear. Um, and it felt very wrong and and not the right way to do it. That's not the sort of creative conflict you're talking about now, is it? Because that's just fear, isn't it? It's like an iron fist.

Burnout Pace And The Pitch Trap

Mick Mahoney 25:23

Well, that's that's not even conflict. That that's that's just like one-way traffic. That's just playing out bullying. That's just straight up bully. No, I I mean conf creative conflict is coming at something from different positions, you know, having different ideas and you know, trying to find um, because you can't always, yeah, you can't always sort of sort of be a straightforward, easy conversation, because there's gonna be points of difference and different ideas and different, you know, and you've got to be able to create an environment where you can have a different point of view, you can have a different idea, you know, but you don't resolve it with conflict, you you kind of resolve it through building and talking, and you know, ultimately that sort of thing falls apart though, if there isn't a really clear accountability for who makes the final decisions on things. You know, if everyone feels that it's their right to have a say and for their opinion to be the right one, then there's no way of resolving that conflict, and that is going to turn nasty, you know. So you have to make sure it's really, really clear who is ultimately the takes the final call on everything, you know, and and every creative culture I've ever been in that was successful, everyone felt they had a say, but it was ultimately like one person's final call on what was the work. And that has to be the creative lead. It has to be, because otherwise that person has all the responsibility and and none of the authority. And if you don't have the authority, then don't give them the don't give them the responsibility, in which case, what's the point of the job?

Chris Norton 26:57

Um, you spoke you spoke a lot about burnout and mental health in terms of the creatives, and and that's one of the reasons that what's for the book, wasn't it? So do you see that a lot in creatives that are struggling with burnout? Because it's a big issue with PR, my side of things, with it's constantly in PR week about people being burnt out in London.

Mick Mahoney 27:19

It's huge, and it it isn't as recognized um as I think we need to be. Uh there's there's been a kind of uh there's been a lot of research over the last couple of years into it. Um and uh I think the stats are something like three times more likely to have um a burnout uh in a creative leadership role than in um any other job type. Um and I think it the job in and of itself doesn't do it. It's the environment that it's done in. It's it's the pace now that everything operates at. You know, it's the the the the exploded responsibilities of the role, you know, it's the exploded expectations, it's partly it's trying to hold the line on an operating model that is 45 years old. You know, the the idea of creatives in a separate department of planning that then is a handover thing that is then developed, and then the creative director has appointed. It it's like it's almost half a century we've been doing that for now as an industry. There aren't many things that have remained the same in the last half a century, you know, but we're still ploughing on with the same process. It doesn't make any sense that that is going to work now. You know, we've got to look at new ways of working, you know, to enable creativity and strategy to still be as important uh as they need to be. Um, I think that uh there's obviously budget restraints now, so people have got less physical resource at their disposal, you know. Um also people aren't getting paid as much, so it's not attracting as much of the top-tier young talent coming into the industry. Um, you know, the demands for everything is just getting faster and faster and faster and faster. There's also when this sort of thing happens and people are panicking about losing revenue, you know, the wrong people take control of the creative product and it gets commoditized. And you know, and at the same time, you're still getting shouted at for yeah, but make us like win us a can gold and be famous, like but what with like you've taken all my tools away. Yeah, what what do you want me to do it with? Um, and so consequently, you've got a lot of really thoroughly hardworking, decent people trying to do the best they possibly can, achieve unrealistic expectations, and and they feel constantly like they're failing. So, as a consequence, they're kind of getting emotionally drained and burnt out. You know, it's a it's a bad situation. It really is.

Chris Norton 30:17

So in the in the PR world, we probably pitch proper pitch, probably uh how many pitches do we do a year? I'm trying to think for a month, probably to it to a month, probably maybe 20 a year. How many pitches would you say creative director and agency gets involved in a year?

Mick Mahoney 30:35

And yeah, well, it depends. I suppose it depends if it's like a project pitch or a full-blown, you know, retained agency type pitch. Um but yeah, I'd say in the in all the years I was a creative director, you know, a CCO, whatever, ECD. Uh I don't think I ever had a period where I wasn't on a pitch in like 20 years, probably. The whole time, yeah. I don't think I was ever on the pitch. Uh because the way the industry is structured, the the remuneration model requires new business. You know, and pitches are the in my my view, one of the key reasons that the industry has got into the state it's in. You know, because the reality is if if the restaurant industry said, well, what we're gonna do now is um you can go, you can eat in four restaurants for a minute. And um, and you you know, obviously you you you eat in four restaurants, the day of your choosing, anything you want, that restaurant will massively over-index on service, you'll get the finest wines, it would just be the most amazing experience, right? And at the end of it, you can decide which one you're gonna pay. And and and what they're really winning is you saying, I will come and eat in your restaurant more often than I will eat in other people's restaurants. Like, if that was the status quo in going out for dinner, like you'd go, brilliant, I'll just do that then. You're not gonna be the person that said, you know what? I can see that's not really fair on your industry. I don't think I'm gonna do that anymore. I'm gonna pay for the meal I have. How about that? So, clients, right? All the agencies say, tell you what, we'll give you our absolute best people, our best thinking, right? And we'll do it really quickly on the day of the all the thing, you know, after Christmas, if you like, we're all coming on Boxing Day. Um, and oh, we'll work over Easter. How about that? And then we'll present you all the best work that is our absolute most valuable prized products that we are real that that's where our real value lies. We'll give it to you, and at the end of that process, if you can be bothered to get back to us, um then you just pay for one of them, but even then you probably get your procurement people to say, Yeah, but we're not actually paying that. Um because I can get lamb chops in the Philippines for 20 per pound. Why should I pay for your yeah, but these are rye, marsh, lamb? Yeah, but do I really need that? I don't really know, and and then it takes you two years to recover the cost of that pitch, you know, through getting paid, you know, the fees. That's what it costs. It takes two years to recover the cost of a creative pitch. So um from a client. It's not just from a creative director's point of view, uh, but it's from everyone's point of view, really, including theirs, I would say, is the pitching, pitching in and of itself is is is is all good. There's I I I don't actually have an issue with pitching, if I'm honest. And I certainly don't blame clients for it. Like I explained the restaurant thing, if that was the status quo with restaurants, I'd be guilty of that because I'd do that, right? So if we're offering it to clients, why would they not take it? Uh makes complete sense to me. Um, but actually, a far fairer process to agencies would be to do uh chemistry pitches, like you would with you know, if you wanted to use an architect on your house or you know what I mean? It's like, what have you done before? What could you, you know, do I like you? Do we get on? Are we in the same place? Can you, you know, because the burden of proof is on them just for them to sort of convince you that you, you know, you've got like-minded and everything. I don't expect you to design and build my house for me before I decide whether or not I like you, or think you're only good. You know, so I think it it a similar process, you know, would be a much, much fairer one. And and then one where the agency doesn't give away their most valuable asset, which is their strategic and creative thinking, it's given away for nothing, yeah, which is why agencies have to then claw it all back through production.

Big Mistakes That Cost Real Clients

Chris Norton 35:16

Um, so when you reflect on your experiences at a creative leader, what are the biggest mistakes that you've made early on then? You covered a few in the books with that.

Mick Mahoney 35:29

Yeah, there's no shortage of them. Um I I think just have to sort of state for the record, really. When I first became a creative director or creative leader, I was genuinely clueless. I I didn't have a clue what you did, what you said. I just didn't know, you know, because nobody told you. So you just sort of and and now if you think about it, the collateral damage I must have done over the years to agencies and clients, and it doesn't really bear thinking about. I mean, one of my you know, one of my sort of favorite kind of um memories, like awkward favorite memories, I look back and I laugh, kind of thing, was one of the very first big client meetings I had when I first became a creative, an actual creative director running an agency. And it was uh Colet Dickinson-Pierce, like way, way back in the day. And we had quite uh really nice guys, but quite a conservative banking client. And I'd gone in there and thought, right, I've been hired because I just won the Grand Prix at Cannes, I've come from Lowe, lowe was creative agency in London at the time. You know, they've hired me because they just want me to like push the boundaries of everything and be creative, and because that's what I've been hired for, because that's what you think, right? That's your sense of self and validation. So I'm thinking, right, I'm just gonna do the most creative thing I could ever think to do in this like banking sector. And it was this new debit card for students. I can't actually remember what it was called, but um, and uh we decided, you know, with the planning team anyway, that it was all you needed as a student, like you're always leaving stuff everywhere, you're a bit haphazard. All you needed to remember was your card. As long as you've got your card, doesn't matter, like whatever. And we had this idea that we were sure would stand out, and the students would love it. That um what we were gonna do is just have like normal everyday shots of students in the pub, in a club, walking, you know, shopping, whatever, and they were completely naked, and we'd shoot it for real, and they would have the bank card stuck in the cheeks of their bum. Well, right, it was just like being held in the cheeks of their bum. Honestly, even today, I still think that has a good idea.

Chris Norton 37:59

The campaign about being a tight ass.

Mick Mahoney 38:04

No, you just holding it in the cheeks of your ass, you know. Anyway, we'd shoot it and it'd be really cool, and like everyone would love it, and it'd get really talked about, and we were sure it would get you know national coverage, the rest of it. And uh, so I presented it because we mocked it all up, then it looked amazing. And uh, I'm presenting it like all sort of super confident, and as I'm presenting it, talking it through, I can see him sort of starting to like shake a little bit and turn red, you know, and just get a little like he's starting to get a bit and I think I'll just push on, maybe he's like, I don't know. So I carried on like the seventh one, the eighth one, yeah, it's gonna be amazing, and you know, uh anyway. Uh I got to the end, and I'm stood there, like as if to say, you know, yeah, yeah, mic drop. And he goes, literally with both his fists on the table, he went, I hate it. I'm like, which bit? And he went, all of it. Right, and it was just that was just an I mean, we lost the client like like that. And so literally, it's my first presentation in my first few weeks in my first job as a creative leader. I had no idea that actually you had to really understand what the client needed from things. It wasn't just what you wanted from things, you know, you had to understand where are they coming from, what are their needs, and then only within that context can you do something amazing. All you're gonna do is what you think is great, you know, you're gonna end up losing lots of clients. Um, so that was uh a bit of a shocker. Um I also was convinced that you had to be a real grown-up when you became a creative director. So I started wearing a suit jacket, uh suit jacket with jeans, because I thought 15 years ago.

Chris Norton 40:13

The built the culprit.

Mentors Space And Senior Talent Loss

Mick Mahoney 40:15

Yeah, you separate you separated yourself, yeah. Um and then after a bit, you just realize you just look like an idiot, really. You try to look older, or actually, what you do is you try to look older, but you're sort of trying to de-risk yourself in clients' eyes so that they sort of look at you and think, but actually that's not what they want. What they really want is you to be you, for you to be confident and to be creative and to not feel like you've got to sort of fit in or look like a grown-up or or whatever. Um, so uh I also I said this to um some of my students the other day. Actually, one of the guys said, What would you do differently looking back? Uh and honestly, I said, I think that I would have been a bit nicer at the but you know when I was sort of starting out because again, you don't know you you you don't know how to treat people like creatives, you don't have to treat creatives to get really good work from them. You end up kind of being a bit, you know, I want it like this, and this is my vision for it. And as opposed to sort of allowing them to come to you with really, and that took a little bit of time to work that one out. And you lose lots of people in that process, and you end up becoming that creative director that people think micromanages, and you know, and and that's such a watch out. That's such a common, common mistake. I worked for so many creative directors like that over the years. Um, the book was actually um the book was actually uh dedicated to two creative directors, and both of them, for the same reason, really, is that they understood that you need to give creatives space. Uh, and they understood that when they were my creative director, they gave me the space and they and that gave me confidence. And they were the two creative directors throughout my career that actually gave me confidence, you know, by stepping back and allowing me to make my own mistakes and cut my own knees. Um, and and I'm eternally grateful for that. And one of them, John O'Keefe, who you really should have on this show, he's an absolute uh he's an absolute solid goal podcast guest star, I reckon. John O'Keefe. Um yeah, John O'Keefe. So he was the global CCO of WPP. At the time, he was the creative director, he's my creative director at BBH. Um, and so he hired me. Um, and in like in my first couple of weeks, I'd have to do the Vodafone pitch, which is like the biggest pitch in London at the time. Um, and it was a few years back. And uh anyway, cut a long story short, he hadn't spoken to me from about my first six months, even though we had an office facing each other. Um and I was a lot of creatives in that department at the time, and there were six credit directors underneath him, and I was one of them. But anyway, like I said, first six months, didn't hear a word from him. And uh I honestly was saying to my wife, I don't know what I've done, but uh John O'Keefe hasn't spoken to me for six months. I said, I I must have I must have done something wrong. I I'm really worried that I'm gonna lose my job. And she said, But you know, you're doing really well, you know, you won that pitch, you're doing really good work, you know, you you know, you're really enjoying it there, you're fitting in, like, so what's the problem? I said, I don't know. I said, like, I really don't know, but I must have done something because he hasn't. And I was thinking, I need to start looking for another job. So I called the headhunters um and said, I think I need to start looking for another job. And they're like, Why? I said, Well, John O'Keefe hasn't spoken to me for my first six months. I said, That's not looking good. And uh they said, Have you asked him why? And no, then too scary, exactly, right? Um, yeah, of course it's he's too scary. Um he's a boss, isn't he? You know, he's like this this big famous grave director, and I'm thinking, Christ. Um, so anyway, in the end, I I I spoke to him and he said, Well, he looked really shocked, and he said, Well, it's going really well, Mick. You're doing a really good job. He said, I didn't need to speak to him.

Chris Norton 44:39

Yeah, you're making me worry worried that I luckily I speak to everyone at my place. But if I don't speak someone for a couple of weeks, they get worried because I talk to everyone. But yeah, I can see that I love that.

Mick Mahoney 44:50

Once I understood that, I loved it. And it just gave me boundless freedom and confidence. And and then you use that creative director kind of like a a mentor and a support and an advisor, and it's and it's great. You don't feel like someone's marking your homework, you feel like you've got this brilliant person who's resource to help you be the best you can be. That I think is great creative direction, you know. Um, and that is honestly. Um that is a great way to look at the job. And I certainly didn't do that when I first started doing it. And I don't think many creative directors do.

Chris Norton 45:33

To be clear, you nearly left because of that. So in his in his if I'm talking to him, I'm like, you fucked up there. I thought you lost a great creative director.

Mick Mahoney 45:46

No, no, no, no. Yeah, I think it's always BBH at the time. And again, amazing time to be at BBH today. You know, it was, it really was, it was the it really was the, you know, you'd walk down the creative department corridor and feel utterly intimidated by how many brilliant people were in it, you know. Um, and you just constantly wanted to up your game. And you just felt it was like, I suppose it must be if you're a footballer, it's like must be how you feel if you play for Real Madrid or something. You know, you just knew that you couldn't be in a better place if you wanted to win trophies, you know, if you wanted to do famous work, if you and you knew it was always gonna be great for your career going forward. So I I was never really gonna leave. I just wondered what it was that I'd done that was so terrible that many didn't want me to stay. I love John O'Keefe.

Chris Norton 46:35

I mean, some of the stuff he's just like a fountain of knowledge, and my everything that he talks about. I've don't got to get him on the show, but uh I haven't tried yet.

Mick Mahoney 46:44

I'm I'm easing myself in July because um it was brilliant at the time because there was so many, you know, the industry's lost so much with senior, really senior talent, obviously for cost-cutting reasons. But the what was brilliant about BBH at that time is there was lots of incredible, really senior people there for you to draw down on and to use and to learn from and to and honestly, it just kept the standards so incredibly high.

Chris Norton 47:11

Because this is it's the same in the PR industry, right? We uh especially in the PR um agency model, like I'm 49, 48, I'm nearly 49, 48, and I'm I'm the oldest in this agency. And it's that's not through design, it just seems to be the way that the industry is. And actually, I'm just thinking, it's not like as we get older, well, I don't do as much direct PR myself at the moment, like I said to you before, as we get older, we don't get any worse, we we get better. Wouldn't you is that happening in the creative sec the creative industry? Because people like John Eggerty start, the absolute creative gold dust. Surely, if I'm a client out there, I want I want those brains. I don't I know there's some young, young, yeah, spunky talent who's 26, 27, who's but actually you want the ones with the maturity and the is that fair or or or do they get overlooked to go for the younger ones?

Mick Mahoney 48:07

Yeah, I I think it's no, I I think it what what's always um what is a great combination is um really open-minded, creative, uh experienced people, and young talent that doesn't really know the rules yet. You know, that is a wonderful, explosive, creative, you know, hotbed of and honestly, what I find now, and it's what keeps me um obviously apart from writing books and training and talks and stuff, you know, I do a lot of advisory stuff with large clients who who actually is the bit that's missing in their agency relationships, is that person that's got the experience and and knows what good looks like and and doesn't see in silos, you know, and is able to help kind of orchestrate the the sort of brand narrative across all their different siloed agency relationships. And that used to be you're really seeing your agency partners, they're they're just they're just not there anymore. Um, you know, and I'm I'm sort of rushed off my feet, in truth, you know, with that. And that's the bit that agencies have given away, and that's the thing that honestly keeps relationships in place for a long time.

AI Future Teams And Human Feeling

Chris Norton 49:31

Great heads, yeah. So with that in mind, like what's your optimism for the future then of creativity? Because obviously there's the whole AI. When you were talking about your your old mentor having him, I was like, that's a real life AI you've got there where you can just ask him questions. It's like Chat GPT in the 90s. Uh, can you tell me how to do it? Um what do you what's what do you think? Have you have you got are you positive about the future uh of creativity, even though we've got AI and all the other things?

Mick Mahoney 49:58

Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, enormously, enormously creative, enormously positive. Um for the simple reason that um uh AI is the most incredible uh tool for critical thinking. Um it isn't an incredible tool for creative thinking, but you know, uh people misunderstand uh often you know what creativity is. You know, creativity is fine, but creativity will always be fine, but right? Because creativity isn't advertising, but advertising is an expression of some creative thinking. Creativity is in engineering, it's in science, it's in it's in medicine, it's in uh architecture, it's it's in every it like it it manifests itself in a million and one different ways. It just so happens that at the moment, you know, within commercial forms of creativity, communications and things, AI is challenging how we actually go through the process. It it isn't going to stop us being creative in lots of different ways. Um, it will help it is gonna obviously have a massive impact on things like production, it's gonna have a massive impact in things like information gathering, you know, but ultimately um you can't industrialize creativity.

Chris Norton 51:26

Um or at least nobody yet has been able to industrialise creative shops, don't they? But actual fact when you're talking about the models and how it hasn't changed in 50 years, that is fascinating because maybe it is time for everyone to review it. It is.

Mick Mahoney 51:44

I mean, well, it's one of the things Kevin and I are going to be talking about in our upcoming book, actually, is you know, we're we're challenging the notion of of strategy and creative as it is at the moment. Um, you know, we think it it's got overly complex, overly verbose, and and overly siloed. And actually, I kind of think that the creative team of the future is a is a creative and a strategist, you know, and working how Kevin and I've been working for the last 10 years works for us. You know, at the very least, it's got to be worth looking at because it saves an awful lot of time, there's no handover, um, and you can work through the whole thing together. You know, given that there's so many tools now to aid creatives, do you really need that distinction between a copywriter and an art director anymore? Of course, in the purest sense, I would say yes, of course. I'm a writer, of course, you want an art director and a writer, I'm a better writer than I'm an art director, all this stuff. But you know, something's got to give somewhere, you know, and in the compressed amounts of time that we've got, in the compressed budgets that we've got, something has to give. And maybe it's that craft element that I need to rely on the tools to help me. Um, and actually, what really matters is getting the creative and the strategist working out what is the brilliant insight and and explanation of that insight that makes someone feel something. Because as an industry, as long as we can make people feel something, we'll always have you know a key role to play in the land in the you know in the lives of brands. Um I I'm a real advocate for you know um putting strategy and creatives together in in teams, short circuiting the whole thing, and you know, um buying some time back to do some brilliant thinking.

Finding Mick And Closing Thoughts

Chris Norton 53:38

Look at Lud mate, I could talk to you all day about creativity. Um if people want to get hold of you, what's the best way they can get hold of you? And what what can I mean? You've sold that many books. I don't know what and you do you produce it you're an on Drama's sixth book. Um what what is it they can hire you for? And what is it where can they find you basically sponsored?

Mick Mahoney 53:59

I do I do four things I do four things, um, and they're all inter interconnected. I uh I advise really kind of uh large brands, you know, on how to sort of own their own narrative, you know, their own sort of brand North Star, help them to understand you know what their North Star is and then how that plays out through their behaviors, communications sort of being one of their behaviors, you know. Um so that's one thing I do. And then often will help them to brief their agencies or you know, oversee some of that output to make sure that you know it's it's at that the sort of desired level. Um I also do um uh talks on creativity. So my my real platform is being able to, I I really want to put more, I want to put creativity into more people's hands, you know, like I want to be the I want to be the Joe Wicks of creativity.

Chris Norton 54:59

That's definitely getting clinched right then

Mick Mahoney 55:03

we're we're like Jamie Oliver. You know how Jamie Oliver was for school dinners, you know. I want to do the same for creativity, and like Joe Wicks has done for you know exercise, I want to do for creativity because creativity isn't what we understand in advertising, it's not the output, it's not the ads. Creativity is in all of us, it's got to be a part of what everyone brings to the table in our industry now. Creativity is for everybody. Um, we're all born creative, it's innate, you know, and and so actually harnessing it is the most important thing, and creativity is you know, the um uh world uh economic forums talks about creativity as a single most important business skill in the world now. Single most asked for and important business skill in the world, because we need new solutions to problems. We need radical change because we're in a period of you know, there's never been a period of such accelerated change in human history. You know, things are changing daily. So legacy systems, legacy approaches, legacy solutions, they don't cut it anymore. And the companies that still think in those terms, they've died, they wither and die. It's all about resilience, it's all about adaptation, it's all about moving forward, and that is creativity, right? And that's the creativity I want people to understand. Not is that ad a creative ad? Like, of course it should be a creative ad. It's got no business existing otherwise, you know. That that's table stakes. You know, I want people to really understand what creativity is. So that's kind of what I'm I'm stepping out from behind my advertising, communications, and marketing sort of desk with my fourth book, you know, talking about it's called Creativity for Beginners, but it's not out until next year. So um I'll just question it now. Oh, yeah. So that that's that doing doing talks on creativity, and that's more of a conference type thing or big company type thing. And then I do a lot of training, yeah, masterclass training. I I've got my training programme at D&A D for Creative Directors, six-week course. Um, and I'm you know, do lots of other kind of training for companies, agencies, businesses, you know, around all aspects of harnessing and developing kind of creativity, whether it's in leadership or whether it's around actually understanding what creativity is or creative culture, you know, et cetera, et cetera. Um, and then um obviously the last one is is books. You know, uh they're they're an excuse to do lots of reading and thinking and writing about creativity, you know, and actually they're a really great. It's always good to have a book if you're gonna do talks and training, because you can always turn up and say, Yeah, I'm the bloke that wrote that. And then everyone thinks that you know.

Chris Norton 57:53

Yeah, how else maybe that's the book would be complete crap. It's not, by the way, it's not. I've read it, I've read three quarters of it, I haven't even finished seeing that. Umbrella because I left it on the bedside table. Um, oh, thanks so much for doing that, Mick. Um, oh um I've got one final question that I've got to ask, I'll be asked every guest. Uh, you've been on this show uh now, and you understand the model and what we ask. If you were us, who's the next guest that you'd get on the show and why?

Mick Mahoney 58:23

Oh, I could say that would be John O'Keefe.

Chris Norton 58:25

Yeah.

Mick Mahoney 58:26

Um, mostly because I think he'd be really uncomfortable doing it. Um but I think he's one of the smartest people you'll meet who never blows his own trumpet. You know, I keep saying to him, John, you need to write more articles, you need to get on LinkedIn, you need to let everyone know how clever you are. Um, and he's just one of those people that he just doesn't um, so I think he should do it because he's like one of the most successful creative directors of all time. You know, brilliant.

Chris Norton 58:55

Thanks for that, mate. I really appreciate it.