B2B Inspired
B2B Inspired, the podcast by BlueOcean - The B2B Agency, is all about exploring the ins, outs, ups and downs of B2B Marketing here in Aotearoa, New Zealand. We'll uncover emerging trends and thinking while sharing inspiring real-world stories from B2B Marketers here in New Zealand. With the goal of supporting New Zealand’s B2B Marketing community in becoming one of the best and brightest anywhere in the world, let’s roll up our sleeves and take on tomorrow together.
B2B Inspired
Mastering Jobs To Be Done For Global Growth
Join us for Episode 23 of #WeDoB2B as we uncover the power of customer-centricity with Ross Howard, Chief Product Officer at Tradify. These are invaluable insights into the 'Jobs to be Done' framework and how it drives successful B2B marketing and product development. Ross delves into the challenges of growth, AI applications, sharing his journey from web design to leading Tradify in simplifying the lives of tradespeople.
Learn how Tradify’s customer-centric strategy and research team focus on speed and simplicity to deliver a seamless user experience, transforming stressful paperwork into manageable tasks. Discover with us how Tradify’s commitment to understanding its users' *real* Jobs to be Done shapes products that truly meet their needs.
For more B2B insights, ideas and opportunities, head to www.blueoceanagency.co.nz
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Let’s roll up our sleeves and take on tomorrow together.
Kia ora, and welcome back to We Do B2B, the podcast by Blue Ocean, where we unpick the ins, outs, ups and downs of B2B marketing here in Aotearoa, New Zealand. I'm your host, Dale Koerner, and I'm a B2B marketer like you. From emerging trends and thinking to inspiring real world stories from smart, good people here in New Zealand, we are here to help the New Zealand B2B marketing community to become one of the best and brightest anywhere in the world. If, like me, you're a B2B marketer looking for a place to connect, learn and be inspired, you have come to the right place and welcome back to we do B2B. We are at the Cordis in Auckland for the Southern SaaS sessions at Southern SaaS 2024. Now our next guest joins us to talk from the perspective of the chief product officer. We have Ross Howard from Tradify. Welcome, Ross. Hey, Dale, great to meet you, great to be here. How's the day been? Just out of interest, we're right at the end of a day's worth of plenary sessions and learning and knowledge exchange. How's it all been?
Ross Howard:Yeah, it's been really, really interesting. We've seen some really honest accounts of like growth and challenges that people have had. It's been really great to have people share that. And then there's definitely been a big focus AI. I mean, that's definitely the flavour at the moment it's kind of coming through everything, so it's been interesting.
Ross Howard:There's some stuff there that's really really useful, and then also some, I guess, dispelling some of the myths and hype that go with that as well, which is great to see as well. So generally like really healthy, thought-provoking content so far.
Dale Koerner:Well, that's good. I mean, it's what you want to do, that's right, yeah, yeah.
Ross Howard:So definitely a bit of conference fever at the end.
Dale Koerner:All these great things to take out of the office as well. I find To just have that day out where you're like, okay, cool, I'm not actually focusing on work.
Ross Howard:If an email's on fire and it's got a little red exclamation mark next to it, I'll give it a read, but otherwise check it out and just take a step back 100%, got some of our other team here as well and we spend so much time at work talking about things that are very local to the problems that we're facing at work, and then you come out and you're both looking at something you know quite, quite, quite a global idea, and then that just starts with these conversations that you can have that bring back value to work. But you wouldn't have got there if you'd started with this immediate problem you've got in front of you, so I like yeah, no, it's been awesome, nice, so take.
Dale Koerner:So take us through your journey. Who is Ross Howard? I nearly said who the hell is Ross Howard? That sounds like a TV show from the 90s.
Ross Howard:It could be like that meme where it says it all began with right. You might wonder how I got here. So, yeah, interesting journey. I guess I would say that I'm a designer as a fundamental kind of education background and a practitioner of that. So I realised I was recently sort of thinking about everything that's happened over the last well, I guess 20 years of my career and got involved in the online space like really early on, as soon as I graduated from Polytech, got involved in web design and then eventually joined a large web design company in New Zealand called Shift and worked there for six or seven years.
Ross Howard:That grew so I was eventually looking after creative teams and trying to figure out how we'd go about designing digital products and services. And then I kind of caught the startup bug. So I had a client who's head of digital at Television New Zealand and we'd had a really great working relationship and also talking about things, opportunities and ideas that were happening in the wider world, and so we started a startup called BuzzStyle that was about helping broadcasters leverage attention on mobile devices when watching TV. At the time this was kind of important and probably is even more important now, but something that we did for a while, we became an agency for the broadcast industry, which was a thing, but it wasn't really what we were focused on being.
Ross Howard:We really wanted to build a product we had a product, but we're still selling a lot of professional services yeah, okay yeah, so did that for a while, decided that it wasn't right.
Ross Howard:We're able to keep running as in sort of a digital agency to get find people new work okay, and then, once that happened, we gave some of our funders a small amount of their money back and and I went back contracting back into sort of digital design agency land but really knew my heart at that point was in getting into another startup and that takes us to Tradify. It's Tradify.
Ross Howard:So one of the investors in the startup I was originally in decided it would still be a good idea to work with me and introduce me to Curtis, who was the founder of Tradify, and you know, at the start when I heard about the company, the trade sector wasn't something I really knew much about or was something that I thought was, you know, particularly a space that I was like I've totally got to go and do that. But definitely I think meeting Curtis and seeing the passion that he had for the product, for making a difference in people's lives, that was really meaningful and early on, the success that he was having was really really useful as well. So that's that just got me hooked, came on board. I think as like the sixth person - Tr adify was based at ice house at the time, a lot of the team were young and hungry salespeople. So I kind of came on as one of the first sort of senior people, I think, along with Curtis, and worked in like a customer experience role so at that point was overseeing the product. The engineering team we did have somebody working on growth and marketing was also across like success and sales and a little bit of everything back then.
Ross Howard:Yeah, and then over that time my role evolved into lots of different things. There's definitely been times where I've been responsible for sales and marketing and done a reasonable amount of marketing. We can probably talk a bit about that, but the one area that I I've always been really focused on has been the product experience and making sure that that is providing a really um, awesome user experience for our customers. Um, you still believe that that is what. If you don't have that, it's very hard to sell, it's very hard to market. Yeah, so I've always been focused on that and trying to make sure we're spending really carefully with what we do and creating value.
Dale Koerner:Yeah, now I'm intrigued, um, because you refer to Tradify as a startup and I haven't quite worked out at what point. A business ceases to become a startup and it's more than that. So how big is Tradify for the viewers at home, and what does Tradify do?
Ross Howard:So Tradify is a job management solution for tradies tradespeople around the world that is much more focused on trade services. So electricians and sparkies and plumbers, renovation and so forth is also in our sweet spot. Large-scale construction is not really what we do Whereabouts are you?
Dale Koerner:Where are you in the journey?
Ross Howard:Yeah, so we have got about 50,000 tradies that are using Tradify now, so quite big. We've got a lot of customers in New Zealand, but very quickly there was a huge opportunity in Australia. So just naturally, by being close to New Zealand, that was a market that grew very quickly for us. So Australia still makes up a significant proportion of our market. It's our biggest market, closely followed by the UK actually, so the UK is our second biggest market and that's now growing at a rate that'll probably overtake Australia in the near future.
Dale Koerner:It's interesting, coming from the UK, having moved over here, lived in Australia, lived in New Zealand.
Ross Howard:Like the phrase tradies, you know, it's a thing here.
Dale Koerner:Is that changed? Do people in the UK do they see themselves as tradies?
Ross Howard:So yeah, so we've got customers all throughout the world, and so we've had this question as well. We went and spent some time in the UK and even in the United States to understand whether the term Tradify would still stick in those markets. I think it's become a little bit of a brand term, a bit like a Googler. So in the UK our sense is that they get it, they understand what it means and it becomes a little bit like a badge, so it communicates enough to understand what it is. Yeah, and then they feel I'm a Tradifier because I'm using Tradify. But we even found that in North America their tradesperson is even less used than it is in, say, the UK, but there they see it as a a master trade. They see it as some sort of anointment of being particularly good at what you do. If you're a tradesperson, then you've achieved some sort of level of craft that regular people haven't.
Dale Koerner:Yeah, I was going to say it has that craft association as you're explaining that. It's what is making me feel.
Ross Howard:Yeah, yeah, so we've got away with it so far, and we did, I think, early on. It was something we did obviously look at quite closely as we went to these other markets, but we found that it was going to not be a problem. Yeah.
Dale Koerner:So, with 50,000 customers across three and more probably markets but I mean the UK, australia, new Zealand there's definitely a common origin. There shall we say yeah, some shared values, some slightly different, yeah.
Ross Howard:How do you orientate around the customer? So it was interesting when I started I guess one of the things that you know got me really interested in Tradify was the success that it really had right. So it was already some galvanizing happening in the market that the people that were Curtis was trying to sell the product to were buying it and they were really loving it. Maybe we didn't exactly know why we we just knew that this was there, was product market fit here and things were going pretty well. But when we're going to go and figure out how we're going to take this product to market and tell more people about it, we needed to uncover what's the story that's going to resonate most with these people. So I very quickly, when joining, did a large scale jobs to be done research project and we spoke to a lot of people that were using Tradify and then some other people that had tried Tradify and weren't using it.
Dale Koerner:It's good that you talked to the ones who abandoned Okay.
Ross Howard:Yeah. So we're trying to understand, like, was there something that you know they were looking for, that we didn't have right, or whether there was something in the promise, was it you?
Ross Howard:Was it us? One thing that was really great about that was that I think we all had a view as to what the message for Tradify would be, and that would probably be one around that you can become super successful Like this, is an engine for hyper growth in your business, and you can become like some sort of global domination, global dominating force. And what we discovered very early on was that was not actually the job that most people are hiring Tradify for.
Dale Koerner:I was going to say yeah, okay.
Ross Howard:And we found that in different um levels, I think in different parts of the world. So australia, new zealand are very consistent in terms of that. They're looking for a solution that will basically help them with admin yeah, and help them manage the side of the business that they generally don't enjoy. They're much more focused on being productive and doing what's typically regarded as real work on the tools work with their hands yeah, all the admin stuff can take all the frankly, it's kind of a necessary evil, yeah.
Ross Howard:so, um, if we can help them with that and essentially give them their time back and help them operationalize their office or you know, we can talk about operating systems for business that probably doesn't resonate with tradies, but essentially, if we can make that automated and much more straightforward and streamline it, then we've given them a win. And that applies well in australia, well in New Zealand, well in the UK I think North America there's probably a greater entrepreneurial spirit. There probably is a greater sense of wanting to achieve a larger kind of enterprise outcome, whereas in Australia and New Zealand these are I wouldn't use the word lifestyle business, because that implies knocking off early to go for a surf. That's definitely not what's happening. But it's a business that is interlaced with their life and often with their family as well.
Dale Koerner:And it affords them a lifestyle. Is that fair to say what's that? It affords them a lifestyle as opposed to it being like that lifestyle kind of part-time?
Ross Howard:Yeah, and there's massive bleed between the two. They self-identify themselves as a tradesperson. It's not just a job for them, it's actually part of who they are.
Dale Koerner:Yeah, yeah that runs quite deep, I think yes it's an innate sense of self um yeah, there's definitely uh, what's the right way to put it? Yeah, it speaks to. It speaks to more than just a job title. It does absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So what were the surprising jobs to be done that you kind of came, came across in the process?
Ross Howard:so, um, the the one thing that we learned in the process I just kind of preface it is that most of these businesses are very, very small.
Ross Howard:Um, one to twenty, I think. If you say one to twenty you you command about 95% or 98%, depending on which market, of the total workforce in businesses of like 1 to 20. So they are very, very small. And there's a phoenix thing that takes place, which is that if you are any good at what you do, you'll often decide after a few years that you can go work for yourself, because the only thing that the company that you're in is doing is giving you an access to work, and the only way that they can make money is by margining your time. So if you are good at what you do and you identify that you can access work which in the market so far has definitely been the case for tradespeople you can kind of start yourself. So there's this constant small business side. So when we looked at how to create, I guess, stratas for our different business types and the different business people Sorry, that's all right.
Dale Koerner:It's like being at school.
Ross Howard:It's like lunchtime.
Dale Koerner:The lunch bell's gone.
Ross Howard:Someone's tapping the little microphone up against the speaker again, sorry, yeah. So when we look at how we might break up businesses and different business types, jeepers, it's still going. We found there's one persona we have called, stressed out Steve, that's your sole trader and they have quite a colourful term for what they're doing, which is they want to cut out the BS. They want to sort of get rid of the admin stuff. They regard it as essentially BS and they really enjoy doing it. But interestingly, the next group that we really lean into there's a lot of partnership family partnership in running a business. So many of them are family businesses, husband-wife partnerships or just life partners, and so one of them is usually out doing a work and the other is actually running the business.
Ross Howard:Yeah, doing the books, scheduling, yeah, yeah. And so the Jobs to Be Done framework helped us identify the moment when people were looking for a tool like Tradify Okay, right Now that I'm really interested in yeah, so there's that emotional trigger, right, and it was a fascinating process because we used the Greenwire training, bob Moester's training, and that makes you do this sort of almost FBI-like investigation process where you get them to describe the room that they were in and what color was that couch that they were sitting on, and all these things, to try and get them really back into that moment when they are thinking I now need to find a product, I now need some something to help me with this problem. Yeah, so we did that process and it was.
Ross Howard:It was the 4 am at the kitchen table trying to figure out what invoices need to be processed in order to put them out, to get money to come in, to pay for the groceries, because people have been working super hard out actually doing work and hadn't found time for the the actual paperwork, and then somebody says I've got to go get the groceries tomorrow and there's no money in the bank account. Have you been? Have you been doing any work? And yes, I've been doing work. Well, we haven't invoiced them. Okay, let's stop and think about who can we invoice how much for? Yeah, and I'm giving an extreme example to kind of paint the picture but that proved to be the moment where two people look across the table and say there must be a better solution for this. We've got to come up with a solution and find a way of solving it. So that's when they start Googling for job management software and will come across Tradify, hopefully.
Dale Koerner:So are people discovering Tradify at point of need or are they coming into that research journey with Tradify on the radar.
Ross Howard:Definitely, at the start, they were discovering Tradify at the point of need. We do quite a lot of work in terms of interacting with tradies who are not using Tradify, and one reason for that is that tradies do interact with a lot of other tradies, so you can obviously get some exposure through that. So, yes, the market is massive. Right, there's obviously lots of tradies when they're in the market feels still like very specific moments in time. Reminds me a little bit like banks with mortgages.
Ross Howard:Everybody yeah, well many people have mortgages, but people that in the market for a mortgage at any point in time is usually quite low. So, um, so we have spent a lot of time focusing on capturing demand that's already there and making sure that, when people are like looking for a solution, that we are there and we're presenting a customer promise that will really strongly resonate with actually what they're looking for. And then we're also obviously building awareness, and then that's something that we continue to sort of build over time as well as making sure that Tradify is more present in the market. But to date, we've been able to build most of the business off just inherent demand from people looking for this.
Dale Koerner:Yeah, and I, yeah, and I suppose the, like you said, the acuity of that situation. When someone says I really need a job management system, that is someone who is they're not casually on, like sitting on the fence, they're like, no, we won't be able to feed our kids if we don't get this sorted. So the there's a necessity there. It's. There's a necessity there. It's not nice to have, it is actually, shit, things are going to fall over if we don't get this sorted.
Dale Koerner:So it's quite an interesting balance because I mean, if I look at it from, I suppose, from the marketing theory perspective, you sit definitely in that 95 to 5 rule space where you've got 95 of the addressable market isn't in market to buy. Yeah, because they're either in something or they're not, and it's only that 5% at any one given time. It's interesting that you've been able to pick up and focus on the point of need piece and that's been how you've grown. But then again I suppose, yeah, like we were just saying, the reason that people need the software is that they need it and from a marketing perspective, it's great to have a product that people need.
Ross Howard:It is it's great to have a product that people need it is. It is. One of the interesting challenges that we had was that we compete with pen and paper, so there's very few people that are switching and there's very few people that, from our research, that are trialing multiple products.
Ross Howard:Oh okay, yeah, so they tend to try one and if it works then they're in. If it doesn't work, then they tend to go back to the way that they did it before and maybe they'll regroup and maybe revisit another product in the future. But yeah, we tend to find that. So that's why it is really important to be really clear about what value you're providing. One thing that we did was we spent a lot of time ensuring that we were benchmarking and understanding our market rather than our industry, and what I mean by that is tradies are not buying lots of SaaS products. I'm in an industry, a SaaS industry, where I'm buying lots of SaaS products. So, going to a website to understand a product, if it has a certain feel and it uses a vernacular of other SaaS products, then the SaaS website looks like a SaaS website and so forth Then obviously I feel like there's some. It resonates with me we found with tradies was you know, we're better off benchmarking ourselves against other vendors in the trade space, so tool suppliers or wholesalers or distributors.
Ross Howard:So that changed the way we went about building our marketing site. We weren't interested in a marketing site that looked like other SAS products. It was kind of didn't matter to our customers. We didn't feature screenshots of the product. We were very focused on images of what our customers get with the time that they save, not using the product. So we did some quite specific things to, I guess, be really clear to our customers what we were promising them, and we found some success with not having to promise them screenshots and features. But the sizzle, not the sausage, would probably be the best way to describe it, right, yeah?
Dale Koerner:We used a copywriter, god, six years ago, and he had this classic London accent and that was his rebrief at the end of this whole conversation. So you want me to sell the sizzle, not the sausage. Who was it? I can't remember. He just sounded like someone from a night, for there's a movie called Withnail and I don't know.
Ross Howard:Yeah.
Dale Koerner:Yeah, he sounded, he sounded. He sounded like God. What was the drug dealer's name? The guy who? The guy who came up with the candlebell carrot?
Ross Howard:Anyway.
Dale Koerner:Yeah, he sounded exactly like him, but I like that you're focusing, like there, on on the, on the outcome, and not just the, the, the, the nuts and bolts and the and the screenshots, the nitty gritty. How does that play in, then, with the whole product-led growth concept?
Ross Howard:So there's an old adage that advertising is the price you pay for an unremarkable product or service.
Dale Koerner:Good, old Jeff Bezos series again.
Ross Howard:Maybe not that old an adage, and I think that there's some truth in that. Right Like, advertising and marketing is super important. You need to do that, but I've always believed that if you make a product that is truly in the interest of your customer and you spend a huge amount of time understanding your customer and I can talk maybe a little bit about the customer research work that we do that that will provide you with a remarkable experience and that word is a literal word for me which is that our customers will remark upon it to other people. Yeah, and so tradies, like many other um, you know groups of people, they, their recommendation is incredibly important, so so incentivizing them to recommend Tradify look, you know, obviously we can reward that, but the general feedback we have is that if you, if you're good at what you do, I'm going to recommend you anyway. I don't need to be incentivized, and if I don't like what you do, then I'm not going to recommend you.
Ross Howard:So we've really focused on just being really, really clear that we are making the product in the interest of our customers, and then when people face this problem which, as we discussed earlier, they do they will often talk to their peers about what are the options and what have you found? Yeah, and we feel like that's a really good moment for you know those people to say I've tried this product and I think it's great and it solved our problem. So we have that in place, which is we just focus on that, the advocacy component, and then we do also have some some mechanics and the product that ensure that when our customers are talking to other trades, businesses that obviously tradeify is there and people can discover it and they can also start a free trial. Yeah, so we've kind of made sure that we've got those affordances in the product as well but you've you.
Dale Koerner:You've put marketing really smack bang in the center of that. Because if you look at I mean certainly from my perspective the essence of marketing is understanding customers and acting on it. Whether that feeds out into communications or whether that feeds your product strategy, it still is. It's a marketing discipline. It's talking to customers, it's understanding the problem, it's understanding the need And's talking to customers. It's understanding the problem, it's understanding the need, and when you combine those things so tightly, I think you can see how you get the success that you've had. Right, you've done a really deep job of actually listening to and understanding that customer base. You touched on research there.
Ross Howard:Yeah.
Dale Koerner:Take us through that.
Ross Howard:Yeah, so we have a research function built into Tradify. It's essentially a shared service that's used across the business, but it also happens to be run out of the product team because I think we lean on it the most. Yeah, and you guys are obviously awesome, sorry, oh well, it's not me that does the team, so it's Adam LaPree who does a great job. But really, what that formed out of was when we did the jobs to be done research, um, we didn't have a research team then, but I think we determined that that was so important and there was so much more opportunity to to gain more information and more insights that we we needn't stop like there's so much value to uncover yeah so we did the the jobs to be done um research and we came up with the jobs for these different personas and I've mentioned a few of them um, and then we obviously had to distill that down to like what's the actual proposition that that we really want to lean into.
Ross Howard:And it was an interesting journey because what we found was something that we then resisted for about six months of further interrogation, okay, and that was that when people were picking Tradify, they were most tradies don't have MBAs, and so they are generally quite good at running businesses, but they have a general sense that they might not be that good because they haven't had the education right, and so that tends to bring a level of stress and anxiety to doing this task because they assume they're not gonna be proficient at it, when often they're actually fantastic at it Really really good, yeah, but that doesn't necessarily reveal itself, and so they generally find this quite a painful thing to do and and it can also be slow, and so when we spoke to people about the job to be done and then what it was about tradeify, that um meant that it resonated with them. They picked it, they gave us something which I at the time felt was a cop-out, which was it's so easy and it's so fast, and to me that was an affordance towards the tool, but it wasn't the value, and so that's the thing. We spent a lot of time, um, I guess, trying to sort of interrogate and bottom out, until we actually just said for our customers, this is actually what they want. They want this to be reduced and they want it to be, um, pain, way less pain, yeah. And then there's a whole lot of affordances that we also bring to that, which then makes things gives them more power, but in the first instance, they're not actually looking for more power, they're just looking for things to be made more streamlined.
Ross Howard:And one challenge that we decided to take on very early was if you think it's hard running a business. Having to learn a piece of software to run a business is like another layer of complexity, and having to learn a piece of software to run a business is like another layer of complexity. And so that's where we really leant into the speed and ease, which is that it actually needs to be easier than doing it in Word, than doing it on pen and paper, than doing it in an Excel spreadsheet, than doing it in Gmail, and so, again, our benchmarking is how quickly can you knock up a quote in Word? It better be faster in Tradify, and and, yes, we can add all sorts of affordances, like we've got priceless lookups and these great things that come with it.
Ross Howard:But, um, you know, one other topic that, um, I really wanted to talk about was b2b versus b2c. Yes, and what we found was that we actually recognize in our, our customers that they're almost like b2c, in that the in trade advice case, the user is the buyer. Yeah, so we're not going and pitching to somebody inside the business who signs a contract and then some other person has to use the software. Whether it's a good or bad experience, the value is in the use, and so we spend a lot of time on that first use experience. The person that's going to be paying the subscription every month is the same person that needs to get value out of it.
Ross Howard:Yeah, they're not buying sass products every day. They're looking for something that makes their life quick and easy. They're not looking to learn or become a you know, a power user of a tool. They want to get a job done. Yeah, um, so that's really where we focused on this idea of being the um, you know, the best tool for the job. Um, and we, we use internal language around being the fastest and easiest way to run a trades business, and then that flows into the product strategy. So everything that we do is have we made this the fastest and easiest way to do X? Have we made it the fastest and easiest way to generate a quote? Fastest and easiest way to get paid, fastest and easiest way to communicate to your team what needs to be done on the job?
Dale Koerner:That's our constant thing that we run through everything Fascinating that. That was, like you said in that early piece of research, like no, no, no, that's cop out.
Ross Howard:There's got to be more. Everyone can be fast, everyone can be easy.
Dale Koerner:But you've really focused in on that and made that a mantra. Yeah, it must have made an enormous difference in terms of focus for how you guys resource and how you dedicate time and effort. Do you have any final thoughts to share with our B2B marketing audience?
Ross Howard:Yeah, I think Aaron gave a really good observation around snakes and ladders, and so he spoke about how growing a business is like snakes and ladders, and what was really fascinating was he felt he needed to explain snakes and ladders to everybody there, because they might be seeing young people. They had no idea what snakes and ladders was and, fascinatingly, there were plenty of people that had never played it and maybe weren't familiar with what's that. Who did the concept, but the board game was news to them, which is, you know, just shows. I'm getting old, um, and I think it's a really good metaphor for growing a startup and identifying when are you going to make some bets and how do you avoid bad bets and how do you avoid good bets and the jobs to be done.
Ross Howard:Research is a really great way of essentially informing some of the bets that you're going to be making. I think that was what's really great with what we found was here's something that we've learned that is profound and resonates with people that are buying our product, and so, if we're going to go and invest a whole lot of product work into trying to make this thing somehow better, and we're going to go and invest in terms of how we message the market. We can optimise and have higher confidence in what we're doing by looking at that essentially looking at that being a bet. So I don't know if that's turned into a nugget for people listening.
Dale Koerner:I'll try and figure out a better way of describing it.
Dale Koerner:What I take from that is it's a way of making an educated leap of faith rather than just a blind all on black, two sixes kind of approach, and certainly from a marketer's perspective, the jobs to be done framework I mean it's part of our induction. Every member of staff who works at Blue Ocean value proposition, design, jobs to be done. Worship at the altar of Clay Christensen? Yeah, not quite, but it's a great way of being able to align different functions around a common view of the customer. 100% saying in this conversation is that it's that for, for. Tradeify has has been a way of creating that common understanding, that common language and then aligning everyone around. To put it frankly, the that matters, um, and you know, hats off, um, it's, it's. It's not always an easy thing to take people through that journey. I mean, certainly, the jobs to be done perspective is something that takes a little bit of orientation because it's a slightly different way of looking at things. Yes, so it sounds like it's been a fantastic journey and I can't wait to see where it goes next.
Dale Koerner:Yeah, great to meet you, awesome conversation, thank you so much for coming on and joining the show Cheers. That's that. Thanks for listening to. We Do B2B by Blue Ocean. Now brace for CTAs. If you want to join and grow the community, make sure to subscribe. Wherever your eyes and ears absorb information, don't forget to switch on notifications so you know when the latest episodes drop. And for more B2B goodness, be sure to follow Blue Ocean, the B2B agency, on LinkedIn. Now look, you know how this next piece works. The more reviews we get, the faster this thing grows. So please do for us what you hope your customers would do for you Leave a review and share your thoughts. Let's stay connected and keep the B2B marketing conversation going.