B2B Inspired

2026 Mood of the Sales Leader with Mike Stokes

• BlueOcean | The B2B Agency • Season 3 • Episode 1

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What’s really happening in the New Zealand sales landscape right now? In this episode, we sit down with Mike Stokes, CEO and founder of Indicator, to unpack the latest insights from his research into sales leaders across New Zealand and Australia. Mike shares what the data is revealing about growth, performance, and the challenges businesses are facing in a tougher economic environment.

We explore why the past year has been one of the most difficult in nearly a decade, what’s driving longer sales cycles and increased competition, and why price has emerged as a critical factor in winning and losing deals. Mike also dives into the impact of reduced investment in sales, marketing, and technology, alongside the growing use of AI and what it is (and isn’t) delivering for sales teams. Whether you're in sales, marketing, or leadership, this conversation offers practical insights to help you adapt, stay competitive, and navigate an uncertain year ahead.

For more B2B insights, ideas and opportunities, head to www.blueoceanagency.co.nz

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Let’s roll up our sleeves and take on tomorrow together.

Welcome And Why Mike’s Back

SPEAKER_00

Yola and welcome back to B2B Inspired, the podcast by Blue Ocean, where we unpick the ins, outs, ups and downs of all things business to business here in LTLO and New Zealand. From emerging trends and thinking to the inspiring real-world stories and experiences of smart, good people from within our ecosystem, we're here to help the New Zealand B2B community to become one of the best, boldest, and brightest anywhere in the world. Now, if like me you live and breathe all things business to business and you're looking for a place to connect, learn and be inspired, you have come to the right place. Haven't done one of these for a little while, but one of the more recent conversations that I ran on B2B Inspired was with our guest today, Mike Stokes. Mike from Indicator, thank you for joining us. Thanks, Dale. Pleasure to be here. I'm gonna hit you straight away with um a little bit of a pat on the back, which is to say that your episode last year was our most listened to episode of the whole year. Fantastic. Yeah, you're famous. Awesome. Love it, love it. Did I have in there, but we'll take it. Yeah, exactly. Keep that in the back pocket. So for the viewers at home who may not know um the viewers at home, the listeners everywhere. Um Mike uh is from Indicator, and um every year they run uh one of the one of the most useful resources, I think, in uh in in New Zealand and Australian sort of sales and marketing forecasting, which is the mood of the sales leader report. And you're which which year are you in now? You've been doing it a long way.

SPEAKER_01

Well, this is the ninth one for New Zealand. So we just issued the ninth one for New Zealand and the second one for Australia.

SPEAKER_00

Wow. Yeah. So double digits next year?

SPEAKER_01

Ten years next year, yeah. Who would have thought?

SPEAKER_00

A big party, big event?

SPEAKER_01

What's the Well, who knows? Who knows?

How The Report Is Built

SPEAKER_00

Nothing in the in the works yet, but why not? Yeah, well we'll hire up one of those boats down in the Viaduct and have a big yeah, one of those. Um so last year we went through some of the insights that came out of the report. Um, and I think there's so much value in just getting straight into the weeds of this because every year, I know for myself personally, there's always a nugget of information within the report that that really sets the ch sets the course for the year ahead. So there are some talking points that I'd like to go through and pick up on it. But um, why don't we just throw to you quickly, just with a high-level overview, is what is the structure of the report? How do you get the information and what does the outlook look like for 2026?

New Zealand’s Toughest Year Yet

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, so to give you an example, so we spoke about obviously we've been doing this for nine years. We survey sales leaders and salespeople, including in the in the leadership arm, we'd also include managing directors, general managers, commercial managers, anyone who's really driving revenue in a business. And this year we also include marketing managers as well. Great, so there we go. There we go. So uh and and the reason why we started this piece of research was that for now uh close to 11 years we've been running a program called Sales Syndicate. And essentially what that is is a peer-to-peer learning and development program for sales leaders. And every month we would see these sales leaders and we would ask them how's their business going, how are they tracking, how's revenue, are they employing people, are they implementing new technology? And it was always a really fascinating barometer on what's happening out there. And we're still fortunate enough to to have those sessions and to be able to hear from the marketplace about what's happening. And so then we did with that we decided, well, there's really some amazing uh insights here, we should share that in a more formal way. And so that's really why we started, and and as we said, we include we've included Australia uh two years ago. And um, but so so in at the end of last year, End of 25, we surveyed 700 of individuals across Australia and New Zealand. And we found two very very different markets, one in New Zealand and one in Australia. We'll put Australia to one side, perhaps at the moment, we'll talk about them later. Um but in New Zealand, you know, when we did this last year, Dale, I sat here and said last year that 2024 was the worst year that we've seen in the time that we've researched. And I'd love to sit here and say that 2025 was better, but in reality it didn't seem to be. And what we saw in 2024 was that we saw only 39% of companies grew. But they grew on the back of a better year. Yeah. This year, what we saw was that in 2025 41% of companies grew. So you could say slightly more, but really it's growing on the back of a poor year already. So it was incredibly tough. So I think that's the first and foremost what we saw. And we had all these expectations and hopes that that we would come out of a form of recession halfway through last year, it never eventuated. So that was tough. And and a lot of companies saw that. We saw a number of redundancies, and we, you know, we I don't think we need to focus too much on that because it was kind of a reality. Some other interesting elements that we saw was that the economy was the number one issue still, still the number one problem. We saw length of sales cycles extend even further than 2024.

SPEAKER_00

And they were already long, right?

SPEAKER_01

They were already long, yeah. And then and then competition crept into you know some of the biggest challenges that the companies had from a revenue perspective.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

So so that was certainly, certainly hard, but we also saw some some positivity. So we'll throw some positivity in early. Canterbury was great. Canterbury was the number one performing region as per our survey. So so and I think if you've been there lately, and for those who've been there lately, you can see the positivity, you can see new things happening, obviously uh rebuilds, a new stadium, and and so forth. So that's uh that was the the positive region of New Zealand.

SPEAKER_00

Any particular pockets that drove that?

SPEAKER_01

Well, agri was was um was a really significant um force last year and and has proven to be the same this year as well. So potentially maybe that supported the the growth in in Canterbury. Yeah. We also saw a positive aspect of uh of last year was exporters. So on the whole, two-thirds of exporters grew. Okay. Right? Fantastic. Uh we asked them were they affected by the US tariffs? Very little were. That's good. So that's positive. Um there was still potential for it to to become so, but at at that time at the end of last year, there wasn't a lot of uh a lot of companies that highlighted that the tariffs were a major problem.

Bright Spots In Canterbury And Exports

SPEAKER_00

That actually surprises me because I mean U the US I'm I'm pegging is going to be one of our biggest export destinations for a lot of the businesses that you're talking to there. So what had sheltered them from it? Are they just really good at managing paperwork in a way that doesn't get them caught?

SPEAKER_01

Or well, I yeah, it it's a question we didn't ask them specifically for those that did uh have have issues with with tariffs, but uh there was also a percentage of those that said it had they haven't seen the impact so much, but uh essentially they passed those passed those prices on. Okay. So so they weren't necessarily affected by it um a as much. Yeah, okay. But yeah, so so yeah, there was certainly some some positivity in those three areas, yeah. But on the whole, we're gonna say that 2025 was the hardest year we've seen in nine years.

SPEAKER_00

Wow. Wow in the in in the nine years, yeah. Jeez, and we've had pandemics and recessions.

SPEAKER_01

We have, yeah, we have.

Australia Pulls Ahead

SPEAKER_00

Um so let let's talk about um we said we'd park Australia, but I think it's it's it's worth uh looking across the Tasman and you know, comparing ourselves to our bigger brother. It's very much a two-speed race, isn't it? You know, I I I look at the the the report and I I see I see a widening chasm between the trajectory, the velocity, and the outlook as well um between the two markets. What what are your thoughts there?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, sadly I think it's true. Um they received much more growth than we did. So they had 61% of of their companies grew, 66% of salespeople achieved their targets. So those are really positive things. But they also invested more as well. I mean, one of the interesting things for for 2025, which is a continued surprise for me, was that in New Zealand we we reduced our spending in developing salespeople.

SPEAKER_00

It was like slashing.

SPEAKER_01

It was a slash, yeah. So 50% reduction in what for those that received uh development of some sort, uh 50% were cut. So for the year before, the average spend per salesperson was$3,000. Last year was$1,500.

SPEAKER_00

And to set some context here, where does that sit compared to like a global average? I mean, I'm I'm guessing that places like the US where where sales is it's uh I suppose recognized more as as a as a honed skill set than something you sort of blindly stumble into because you've got technical knowledge. Um you know, if$3,000 per salesperson was where we were at, where did that sit on a scale?

SPEAKER_01

Well, certainly against Australia, it was low. Yeah. It was low. And in fairness, Australia did did have some cuts there too. So they their spend in in developing their team was by about 30%. And and actually when we looked at the year before for New Zealand, 3,000 was quite high. Okay. Um how it compares to the likes of UK and and the US, I'm not sure. But what I do know is that if you're in Australia, you're much more likely to receive a higher form of development. And and that's something that we have to think about. And we also saw marketing budgets cut, you know, which you'll love to hear, Dale, of course. Uh so we saw marketing budgets cut and we also saw technology investments light.

SPEAKER_00

Tech investment in New Zealand dropped as well.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, third year in a row. Third year in a row from a sales perspective.

Training Tech And Marketing Cuts

SPEAKER_00

Okay, so uh walk me through what what that picture looks like, because you know, we if we look at the context of New Zealand, we've got pretty poor productivity rates, and that's probably doing us that's probably putting it lightly. Um we're not investing in sales training, and we're not spending in tech. Where are we hoping to find an upside here?

SPEAKER_01

True. I mean, I would love us as a comp as a country to become more aggressive. Yeah. And and I think that is a major consideration between Australia and New Zealand. You know, there is they show a lot bigger form of of aggressiveness towards growth and and driving change and so forth. And when we have a tough time, which in fairness it has been tough here, we go a little bit into our shelves. Yeah. And and I think uh we have a duty of care in this uh in this country as all businesses we need to continue investing. I get it, it's incredibly tough. And literally, in some cases, the the the financial opportunity to invest in in various things like technology wasn't there. But I also uh see a number of bigger companies that have good stability that you know potentially could invest more, and that's good for the whole economy. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00

But do you get any view um you know in the conversations that you have through Syndicate and also through the research here that that sort of talks to what's holding people back? I want to see there's a financial implication, which is it's it's very present, it's very real. But is that money going somewhere else? Is it just not going anywhere? Or why why isn't New Zealand, why aren't New Zealand businesses investing in things like sales training and tech and and being more aggressive on the on the on those fronts?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I I I don't necessarily think it's been funneled into other areas. In some cases it it it funneled, you know, stayed stayed within companies because they needed it to survive, but a lot of companies didn't, and I think uh a lot of it was really more of a conservative, a conservative nature. So um, you know, it was definitely tough, and if you look at some industry like building products as an example, that was tough. It was a really hard year and and is looking like it'll be another hard year.

SPEAKER_00

What's made it hard for them? You know, where have those pressures come from in those industries? Is it is it volume? What's the compensation?

Why Deals Are Lost On Price

SPEAKER_01

The markets have declined. Okay. You know, the the the the size of the pie has declined. So their numbers of um of uh projects and investing in various things have have reduced, and that has a a big impact right across all sorts of uh organizations as well. So it has been absolutely a tougher year through no fault of their own. And I and I think one of the things that that we saw too, Dale, was that um for the first time ever when we asked sales leaders what was the the main reason why you didn't win deals in 2025, price was listed as the as the number one. And we've never had that before, and there is always arguments against price, yeah. Um but we did see because the buyer has the leverage, yeah, they used it. That's interesting. And so so driving down price was a strategy. Now, I would say too, is that the number one reason why companies listed that they that they won deals was through trust and and brand.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, that that that much lit me up. I saw that and I was like, trust is the language that we speak, and I love that trust in brand and also the people who are, you know, representing those businesses is carrying sales forward. But when price is becoming more and more and more of a factor there, that's a that's a real challenge. I mean, I look back to some of my my my time in in the pure sales role, and I remember I'll call them out here, my CEO, former CEO, John Stuckey saying Dale price was never the reason you lost the deal. Don't you dare chalk it up to price because there's always something else. But you've got years worth of data here which says if it's never been the top spot, the fact that it suddenly is tells you something, right?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Uh your CEO is is bang on usually. Yeah. Um and we would, you know, as a as a as a as an organization that develops sales teams and so forth, we would never highlight that price is usually the number one reason. And there's still absolutely many cases and you know, a number of cases where that is, you know, price is simply not true and it's used as a cop-out both from the buyer and also the seller. Yeah, true. But uh we saw it for the first time this year. And so basically what that highlighted is that you wouldn't win deals on price, but you could certainly lose them.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_01

So if you're gonna lose them, you do need to be there or thereabouts.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Uh and you can be higher, and we've seen significant scenarios where companies, but depending on what they're selling, could be dramatically higher in price. But so in other words, you can't win on it, but you can lose on it a few miles away.

Trust And Brand Still Win

SPEAKER_00

Right. Yeah, that's um that's yeah, I I can see it just playing out across so many different conversations uh in in our world as well, you know, the clients that we're working with. It's um yeah, you have to be, like you said, you have to be within a hooey of where it needs to be. Yeah. So one of the other things that that um that that stood out uh again in the report, and I think this is it's a conversation that we're we're hearing in a number of different swim lanes at the moment, but it's if we have to talk about AI, because there's 2026 and AI, um, but you saw a huge uptick in the number of salespeople using AI, but no real demonstrable lift in impact through it. Talk us through that.

SPEAKER_01

Not yet. Not necessarily in productivity, yeah, but in terms of we asked the question based, did AI increase your sales? And you can look at that in a variety of different ways. Yeah. And we did, we saw 90% of salespeople using AI in some form. Most of it not mandated by the company, so a lot of it what they call shadow IT or shadow AI, should I say? Um but they were, you know, and potentially it it enabled them to be more product, you know, more productive, it enabled them to improve what they were um, you know, delivering in an in an email or a proposal or in any form of writing or content, but not necessarily directly improving sales.

AI Adoption Without Sales Lift

SPEAKER_00

Which areas, I mean you touched on some of them there, but where where are sales teams actually putting AI to work? What is it doing and what is it enabling um for them? Um I think it's a really interesting topic to explore practically.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Well I think the number one is productivity. So so for those that are as say writing proposals is an example, they're using it as a guide. For those that are writing content, they're using it as a guide. It's phenomenal for research. We know that much. Uh so I think that's supporting salespeople. It's it's it's it's certainly valuable from a reach out perspective. We're seeing more and more AI uh callers, and we're all, I don't know, I'm not sure about you, but the number of spam emails I'm receiving that are AI generated is is out of the box and out of control.

SPEAKER_00

Isn't it amazing that we we we create this um this l world-changing technology and we just use it to send more emails faster? It's true.

SPEAKER_01

Absolutely true. And and how many do you respond to? Zip. Exactly. Because you know they are AI. So it's so it's absolutely not there yet. But it does have the ability, if used well, to to make salespeople better.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

We have a particular piece of technology that we absolutely love, which is uh an AI role play tool. So it enables salespeople to practice their conversations, whether it's a discovery meeting or a negotiation or uh any particular part of a particular area with an AI avatar and it gives you feedback on how well you did and how you can improve and so forth. So things like that are phenomenal.

Second Nature AI Sales Roleplay

SPEAKER_00

Can we dig into that a little bit further? Is that something that you've developed yourselves or is it uh off the shelf?

SPEAKER_01

I would love to say we've developed it, Dale, but no, we've got it from a US-based uh organization and it is absolutely a game changer. So if you think of uh, for instance, one of the challenges of of training and development is that you typically rely on managers to embed the learning and keep it live and keep it going. Uh but this particular type of tool helps embed it and and you're able to get consistent feedback right across the team. There's also an element for those that want it or their culture fits with it that's competitive, uh, which salespeople love, no surprise there.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And so things like this will enable salespeople to be better. Uh will it take away from will we have thousands of salespeople lose their jobs? I think that's yet to be found out, anyone's guess. But if you look at what companies value, back to that trust, yeah, back to that brand, everything that can lead into improving those areas. In some cases, AI will support that, in some cases it won't.

SPEAKER_00

It sounds fascinating. I remember last time we we sat here, you talked about crystal nose. Um and I I remember a bunch of people who listened to the podcast came to me afterwards and said, Oh, we went and looked at that, what a cool tool. Can you can are you allowed to mention what this name of the of this this is? Yeah. Sure. And ask royalties from the guys in the US. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Well, I mean, we we have the um the uh the ownership of it in in Australasia, so very happy to mention it. It's a it's a tool called Second Nature.

SPEAKER_00

Okay.

SPEAKER_01

And it it's entirely designed to do that, to make you know, having great sales conversations and interactions second nature. And so it's a bit of a game changer.

SPEAKER_00

So when you say that it it it's a conversational tool with with an avatar, does it actually stand up a person on screen that you can talk to? So we we could have that on the podcast?

SPEAKER_01

Share. Wow. Might take a bit of work, but yes, absolutely. So essentially you so for instance, your business, we would set up a a scenario that's customized to your business and the type of people that you have a conversation with. And you can it set them up as being a pleasant person or a difficult person, and you can create a whole different scenario that would put uh uh the salesperson in into that, into that, you know, exactly like a case that you would do yourself.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And um and it's amazing how how lifelike it is, yeah, and how you know you do get a little bit of apprehension when you're when you're starting this tool because you know, you you recognize there is an element that um that you're seeing how well you perform and you get a score towards best practice, but then most importantly, you get delivered this set of of feedback or analysis that comes back to say you spoke too quickly, yeah, which is an issue for New Zealanders. Uh I know it's an issue for me, I get that a lot. Uh you said too many arms and R's, you didn't dig in and ask this question, you didn't set it build great rapport, but you did this very, very well, and those are the things that you can expand on.

SPEAKER_00

I don't think there's a single person who's going to listen to this who's not gonna be curious to have a go at that. I'm as we're talking about it, I'm I'm I'm interested. That sounds actually a great use case though, right? I mean, and when you talk about the the reduction in training, uh training spent in New Zealand, but something like that that one scenario, the ability to go in and stress test your own delivery, your own performance in a way that actually is impartial, isn't reliant on the person in the who is in the call with you saying, Hey Mike, you you said arm a bit too many times, you know? Being able to do that and have some fear, that's a that's an awesome use case.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Way better than sending a shitload of cold emails. Completely.

SPEAKER_01

I mean that the game should be we need to be better. Yeah. Yeah, and we need to be better, we need to be constantly getting better, we also need to be better than our competitors, and anything that'll enable us to provide better value to our customers has got to be a great thing.

SPEAKER_00

This isn't the put this wasn't really the purpose of the conversation, but I'm so curious. Do you see a difference in sales style and performance within that between New Zealand sales teams and Australian sales teams?

SPEAKER_01

Well, we know there's a one of the things with uh with New Zealand sales teams is that there was a piece of research, which unfortunately wasn't ours, done a number of years ago, which highlighted that the vast majority of people in New Zealand sales were not necessarily proud of being in sales. Yeah. So there is that element, and we do know that we are, you know, as we spoke about, more conservative. And um but we and we also know from a buyer behaviour, which is really frustrating for salespeople. We love we love yeses, of course. Yes, let's work together. We love well, I wouldn't say we love, but we we don't mind no's. You can do something with a no. You can do something with a no. But we don't like the maybes. Yeah. And in Australia, by all accounts, you're gonna get the yeses or the no's. In New Zealand, you'll you'll often get or come back to it in two months, or et cetera, et cetera. So there is that uh there is that nature and they are definitely more aggressive. Yep. Yep. Definitely more aggressive.

SPEAKER_00

But I suppose that would that would go hand in hand with that piece that you talked about earlier on with sales cycles getting longer, you know, procrastination, kicking the can down the road, oh this is great, let's go socialize it and we'll come back to you in a couple of months.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Um have Kiwis just gotten more more polite? Maybe a little bit of risk averse.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Maybe a little bit of risk averse for for and it's understandable because times have been tough. Yeah. And absolutely, you know, you you want to encourage buyers to be really careful what they're buying.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Um and um but we are probably a little bit more risk averse than I'd like us to see us be. But we will that will get better when conditions get better. Yeah. When we aren't so concerned about you know paying salaries and you know next month or making sure our business is sustainable.

SPEAKER_00

Are there other factors in there that you see? You know, you you talk about those those those those barriers to taking risks. Are there are there other things that you see within the you know the the pool of people that you survey where the people who have done really well have have looked at risk and have uh have framed it differently or have navigated around it in a way that others haven't?

SPEAKER_01

I remember being in a board meeting with a different company years ago, and there was an old wise guy in there, and he said, look, the reality is if you're not prepared to take risk, you should be you shouldn't be in business. And I think that's 100% true. I mean calculated risk. But if you look at the most successful businesses or the most successful entrepreneurs, they've all taken a risk in some way or form. And not normally one risk, they've taken a bunch of risks. Yeah. And in some cases it it won't have work, you know, won't have worked as an example. But the reality, if you want to build a successful business, you're gonna be taking some at various points, whether it's borrowing money, whether it's buying the business, whether it's starting the business, whether it's employing this person, etc. etc. And in sales, as we know, the biggest issue or the biggest uh competitor usually is the non-decision. And for a great salesperson, the great salesperson has value, they'll understand the the client's predicament or situation that they can truly add something to their business, and it's communicating that well, and it's being a hundred percent sure that you can have an impact on the on the business, and that removes risk. So the best uh the best salespeople will 100% 100% be getting that across that this is an investment that is worthwhile for the company to embark on, or tell the company it's not the right fit for you and move on.

Calculated Risk And The Non Decision

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah. That's so interesting. Um wonderful person from within our network, um, and a customer of ours as well, um, been in the role of CEO uh at a at a fascinating business here in Auckland uh in the industrial automation space. And he'd been given a mandate over a period of the last sort of five, six years to get the business to a point of revenue, margin, everything else like that. And he's just stepped back from that role, having achieved it. And he he put up a great phrase on LinkedIn the other day, which was that um a ship is safest when it's in its harbour, but it's not what a ship was designed to go and do. And that was his rationale for for you know having gone and done this thing and not been comfortable. There's risk in going taking and doing the the the next big thing, and I think it's it's it's it's very brave and it's an honourable thing that you can see people lean into that in a way which is you know considered it's smart. Um now one of the things that stood out in the report for me was uh sales and marketing alignment. So you you guys talk to marketing managers more uh this this time around than you have done in the past. Talk to me about the state of sales and marketing as a team, as a relationship between sales and marketing?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah, it's it's it's improving. That's awesome. It's improving. Um depending on what what the marketing team is there to do.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Um one of the things we spoke about already was that trust and brand are what people buy on. And if we're seeing marketing budgets reduced, then that's a worry for salespeople. Um it is a lot easier to sell when you have a great brand, not just a personal brand behind you, but a great uh business brand behind you. There was sales leaders feel that they have a seat at the table with with with marketing. They feel that they are adding value or have uh a voice in that space. Um they do feel that which we don't know if this will ever change. It might it may be just a constant forever, but they do feel two-thirds of of sales leaders feel that marketing does not deliver the leads that they should be.

SPEAKER_00

We were talking about this before, and I kind of get the sense that to an extent this is like a teenage boy's hunger. You'll never fill up a 13-year-old boy playing sports, they'll always want more. But it's an interesting, it's an interesting piece because one of the things I see as a a sort of a a challenge in in this whole arena is that the lead gen piece is arguably the most measurable. The trust and the brand building piece is the least tangible, but has the biggest impact on sales. But then when it when it comes to budgeting time within marketing, it's the brand and trust piece that gets axed first in favor of the more measurable bottom of funnel piece. But it it sort of feels a little bit that you know you're hearing from the sales team here that actually the thing that's greasing the wheels most for them here is that is that high-level brand and trust piece.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. It's a yeah, it's a dichotomy, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. I mean every sale. I mean, if you look at the biggest frustration from a sales leader about their sales team is business development. Okay. Always. Every year, as long as we've been researching sales leaders, the biggest frustration with with sales leaders is there's not a enough business development going on.

SPEAKER_00

And and how does that show up? Is that just get out of the office more? I don't want to see you way behind your desk. Is that the sort of sentiment there? Completely.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. You know, and there's nothing worse than going into a uh a quiet sales room. And there's nothing worse than going into a sales room when you you expect your salespeople to be out on the road and visiting customers and they're all sitting there tapping on their computers. Um but that is always the biggest frustration. So it's around new logos, as they say, bringing those out there hunting. When it a a lot of sales roles are typically uh dedicated 80% account management, 20% prospecting, or bringing on new business. The 20% prospecting is always the part that they feel is not done.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, okay.

Sales And Marketing Alignment Reality

SPEAKER_01

And so they're also saying you know, that's not been done, but also marketing's not delivering us the links. Will they even be happy? Well, I you know, I mean actually I should say that sales sales leaders are incredibly optimistic, they're the most optimistic bunch, but you always have pressures. And particularly last year, last couple of years, there is pressures. There is a bit of a widening gap, I think, between sales leaders and salespeople, more so than marketing and sales leaders, they some seem to be coming closer closer together. Sales leaders and salespeople seem to be moving far further apart based on a number of different reasons.

SPEAKER_00

Okay, so sort of f fractions, fac fractures within that sales camp. So the the the wedge between sales leaders and the sales team is getting bigger, is that what you're saying there?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and I I would put that entirely down to the economic situation. Yeah. So companies typically wanting to pay salespeople more commission. Salespeople they want more security. They want a bigger base. They want a bigger base. Yeah. And and if I throw in some research from the mood, last year 93% of salespeople either received no salary increase or less than five percent.

SPEAKER_00

Okay.

SPEAKER_01

So a very, very small margin were more than five percent in terms of their salary increase. Yeah before that it was about 70%. So for the last two years there hasn't been a lot of increase in in uh in remuneration, and particularly incentives haven't been easily flying as well. So there is this frustration from salespeople, and you can see it in why they leave roles. They've been leaving roles, going to other ones for more money. That's been happening. I mean, that's been happening for for a while. And but they they want more money and they want it as a base, not commission.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And that's the same also for business development managers. Typically, it's always a fascinating conversation around what drives salespeople, and and usually money is lower. You want you want to be paid what you're worth, of course, and don't get me wrong, we like incentives and and we do like getting paid more money, but it's not our number one driver. And so salespeople want more money, they want better leadership. Yeah, it's definitely a disconnect around the leadership, and they want more opportunities to advance. They want development and they want a cre a career path, a clear career path.

SPEAKER_00

When you say better leadership, what are the gaps there? Is that is that empathy, is that training, is that latitude to go and do what you need to do? Accountability. What are the what does better leadership look like there?

SPEAKER_01

It's all of it.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

You know, it's they wanna they want to look up to a leader that that they feel has their back. I think that's the the first and most important thing. But they also want guidance and they want development, they want to learn off a leader.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

The problem that we've had because a leader is under increasing stress because the numbers aren't quite where they are, is that they perhaps haven't been quite as connected as they as they uh as they usually are. And the empathy piece is is you know it's a really critical part for a for a salesperson. You know, they as they say you you go for a brand and you stay off stay for a manager. Um and we do have an issue with quality of sales leadership in this country. Most of us, uh as we were, you know, growing through our careers, we didn't necessarily have great sales leadership development. Uh we've some may have had leadership development, but it is an area that's not uh not developed nearly enough. You don't learn this at university. And you know, quite often a sales leader will give up their development budget and give it to the salesperson. Lift the quality of the sales leader, you lift the quality of the whole team.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

So there is that there is a bit of a dis disconnect going on there, and 50% of salespeople were approached about a new role last year, I think. I think which is common, and I think that your best salespeople are your competitors best prospects. And and I don't think people realize how often their best salespeople have been approached about roles. And and that's only going to increase when the economy when things crossed this year, we'll will grow.

SPEAKER_00

Let's just quickly dig into that sales leadership piece here, because I think when we talk about empathy in the context of leadership, what does let's just look at a quick scenario here. So let's say you're sales leader, you've got a team of, I don't know, let's say somewhere between two and five salespeople, BDMs, account managers, whatever, and those people aren't heading their numbers. What does the good sales leadership response look like to that? Because sell more, sell more, sell more is not gonna it's not gonna bail out a leaking boat, is it? Sure.

Pay Pressure And Leadership Gaps

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, 100%. It's gonna be different for every uh salesperson. I think that if you've got a team of two to five, right? There's not a massive, not a massive team there. One of the most important things that a sales leader can do for a salesperson is to truly try and understand them as best as possible. You know, we talk about money before as a motivator. Most salespeople, it's not um, it's not their number one. But what drives them?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Um and and and in fact, what we what we have from from our uh research is that you know most people are passionate about their roles due to uh you know having that leader that they truly love, to be to having great um respect in their company, yeah, being part of a really strong sales culture, but they also really love their clients. They really love dealing with their right clients. So the first thing a sales leader can do is understand, okay, what is the what is the main issue? Well, you know, and and you should be able to um pull apart an element of are they spending the time with the wrong customers? So is their focus incorrect? Is their ideal customer not not not focused enough? Um are they are they having a you know from a quantity perspective? And I always say quantity, quality, and process. So quantity, are they having an the the numbers of of calls or meetings or opportunities in their pipeline? Yeah. And then really importantly, what's the quality, what's the quality like? So how well are they engaging in different parts of the uh of the sales process? And we we typically say that there is this balance between mindset and skill set. And and and most of the time mindset is the most important area to focus with salespeople. And and the mindset piece is their their drive to want to be successful, their ability to try and improve what they do to enable them to get better, you know, they really look at things opportunity or difficult situations as an opportunity to learn advance rather than that, you know, fixed mindset. So it's the drive versus the fixed. And that's a really critical element to drive. And to drive that mindset piece, you've really got to know your person. Yep. You know, what are they what do they want? Are they trying to sell for are they trying to um uh you know buy a house or are they most passionate about this part of the business? Do they want to be the best in the company? Do they do they, you know, what what is it? What is it?

Coaching For Better Sales Performance

SPEAKER_00

Usually it's not money, usually it's something else. That it's such a refreshing thing to hear. So just for context here, so we were yesterday um here at the uh the the B2B marketing conference put on by the Marketing Association. And I think one of the things that fascinates me so much in the last 10 minutes of this conversation is that yesterday we were in a room where full of marketers, and there's still very much the sense from the marketing camp that the relationship's not that solid. Um one of the things that I pick up um from that uh from that sort of marketing tranche, and I I I sit a little bit differently in that because I've been in sales, I've run territory management, I've even now I I I blur the lines between sales and marketing. But I think that it's interesting to hear that sales feel that the relationship is strengthening, that sales and marketing alignment piece is strengthening. But I think the thing that's missing on the marketing side of the equation is actually an appreciation of what life as a salesperson looks like. Because to hear you say that money is not the biggest driver, it goes straight against the grain of all of the assumptions that people would normally make about a salesperson, right? You think you're in sales, you must love sales, you must love money, you must love commission, all those kind of things. But you know, if you look at it objectively, and I I I look within, again, my own my own network here, the the people who are really good at sales are the people for whom the sale is the natural byproduct of just doing the right thing in the first place. Looking after the client, finding a problem, caring about them deeply, and making sure that the people who are delivering haul ass to make sure that they keep their promises. Um so I I find it interesting to see again, like I said, that the that the sense from the sales team is that the the sales and marketing alignment is is is strong there because uh, you know, coming off of some of these conversations, it doesn't feel like that's echoed on the marketing side of the equation. Um, but one thing that I did notice, and it made me smile at you, was in the in the Australian report this year was that um sales and marketing alignment was rated really, really, really strongly. And then the next thing that came after it was, and also sales feel like we have a lot of influence within the marketing team. And is that just is that sales calling the shots? Or is that actually being listened to? What does that look like? Is that is that getting the pro the is that getting the proposal and the PowerPoint presentation at standard when we want it, or is it actually that that that there's more there?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, well, and and I don't know how to actually answer that one, Dale. I I think one of the one of the biggest things that that was highlighted is what is the best way to enhance that relationship. Yep. And and and maybe there's a mutual respect point of view, which is to understand what what others do. I mean they're different personalities, I think, in many ways. You know, I mean, I'm not saying it entirely, but as an example, I I was called today for uh as quite often happens with me, as someone rang me and said, I'm looking for a a GM of sales and marketing, and my first thought is well, which is your bent? Is it marketing or is it sales? Because you're never gonna be 50-50. I'm yet to see that there may be someone out there. Um but um I think there's a realization of the last few years just how critical both sides are. Yeah. And they sit right on top of each other, and there is no doubt it's getting, you know, more and more closer. Yep. Um it doesn't mean there's always gonna be an out there's always gonna be a little bit of an element of oil and water. Yeah. I think I think great analogy. That's a really good analogy. And and you know, as we alluded before, that sales leaders are always frustrated that that you know that there isn't enough leads, but maybe that's not a true understanding of what both sides do. And but that that relationship or that rapport is critical. And and you do see we do we are seeing more roles that do have that overall management of sales and marketing, which is sorry about that. Little microphone dip there, I guess there's a huge graphic spike in your own. Which is you know, which is important, but it's just spending more and more time together, both from a content perspective, learnings from the field that go back into the uh into the marketing space. Yeah. So is there always going to be a little bit of an element of tension? Yes, uh, I think. Um is there joint respect, I think, on the whole, but there's a probably always joint frustrations about what what each side needs from each side. And and one thing I should go back to where you started being there. Don't get me wrong, salespeople love money. We're not saying we don't love money. We don't love it, it's not saying that, but it is a massive mistake for any person to jump for a role particularly for money.

SPEAKER_00

That's Gino, that's such an interesting conversation because I I was talking to a good buddy of mine this morning um about exactly that piece. Um, you know, there's there's a pathway in front of this guy where it's like, okay, well, I could go back into the corporate world and I could make really good money, but it's gonna destroy my soul. It's not gonna fill my cup, or I could go into more sort of start-up, early tech, that kind of space, which is gonna delight me. I'm gonna be working with good people and it's gonna, you know, it's gonna tick all of those other boxes that, you know, don't make the commission check, but that that that pay another bill.

SPEAKER_01

Well, and I think that depends on your stage of life too, right? So but we typically do see that, and we saw that a lot during um, you know, 2022 when there was such a shortage of people that people jumped for more money, in some cases really significant amounts of money. But when the economy turned after that, you know, who was the first to go? Those people that had the massive um uh remuneration that perhaps weren't delivering as much as they would, and there's always a level of frustration, but I do as a whole generally think that, and I think this concept of back to that, you know, salespeople entirely driven by money. If I'm in a situation and you're a you're a buyer and I'm a seller, and my whole job is to my whole thought process going into that conversation is for me to make more money, incentive breath, if we call it, you're very easily gonna see that, you know, see through that and you're never gonna buy from me again. Yeah. Uh-huh and that comes straight back to that trust piece, right? Completely. You you may be able to get away with that in other markets, but you know, bigger markets in in this comp you know, in this country, you're gonna struggle. Yeah. Yeah, you're gonna get tied with a brush pretty quickly, I think. Completely. But uh you know, if you think of the most successful salespeople that you've ever come across, they don't have that, um they don't have that element to them. They are there to help the customer and and you know, and and that that salesperson will be the one that receives the referrals. Yeah. And that salesperson will hopefully be the one that's still um desired when you know AI takes over the whole world.

2026 Outlook And Heaven In 27

SPEAKER_00

So yeah. It's uh that's a good segue because we're well 40 minutes in. Um at this stage of 2026, it's anyone's guess what's going to happen on the global stage. Um the guy in the uh blonde toupee is throwing curveballs left, right, and center. But let's look forward to Mood of the Sales Leader 2027. You and I are sitting on a yacht somewhere out in the Hodaki Gulf recording the 10-year anniversary podcast. What what what are you pegging is going to change? What do you what do you think that the outlook is going to look like over the over the rest of the year ahead? And what can we do to take control of some of those things? Well, I'll do that in two parts.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. One is I'll tell you what the research told us and what uh sales leaders told us at the end of last year and salespeople. And two is I'll tell you what I think. Okay, cool. And I'm interested in both. Yeah, okay. So the unfortunately for the year ahead, what we saw is that the level of well, fortunately, the level of pessimism is the lowest we've seen. Joint lowest we've seen for a number of years. One only one percent of salespeers were were were pessimistic. On the other side, we also saw the level of optimism. So those companies that were really bullish about this year also at the lowest. So so really what they're saying to us is we see it a little bit better, but we don't necessarily see it hitting out of the park. Yeah. And when we ask them, um, you know, when are we coming out of this recession? Yeah, which we asked them last. Last year earliest is midway through the year. Yep. A chunk were into next year as well. We all want to to go into this year being confident and we're still holding on to that. We had a an event for the mood of the sales letter in January this year, and I asked to the crowd that was there, what's the one word that's going to describe this year?

SPEAKER_00

Okay.

SPEAKER_01

And this one individual shouted shouted out um uncertainty. Okay. And he was almost lynched because everyone everyone wanted this massive confidence element and they were disappointed by that. But in reality it's probably true.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

He's probably true. And uh so there is certain yeah, so so essentially what they're saying to us is you know it's a a bit it's it's not necessarily exciting, but we're we're holding on.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Um but we're gonna be better than than than last year. And we're seeing we're seeing we're certainly seeing that. Doesn't help with the election.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, it's always a it's always a holding pattern kind of mindset, isn't it? Always a holding pattern, particularly if it's close.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

That doesn't help, and then straight after that we're into you know December, January, you know, doom time. So the two months of the year that don't really ever happen. Yeah, yeah, exactly. That that that exactly. So so that's what they're telling us. Um what I'm saying is pretty similar. I'm not gonna mention of the blonde toupee because I still might want to go to the US and I want to be I want to be let in maybe, but you know. Um but I think we're gonna it's gonna be better. Maybe not massively better, but I did share that expression for it's gonna be heaven in 27. Let's hold on to that. Yeah. Let's hold on to that. But the big thing we don't know is what's gonna happen internationally, and and the increase in fuel prices and the likes is a real concern for for for so many, and in fact, the whole economy.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Um But I do I do think it's gonna get better. I think the confidence and momentum is gonna build slowly throughout the year. I think the the hopefully companies will invest more this year and take a more aggressive, uh, aggressive approach. Um and it it will get better at some stages, just about how long. I'm yeah I'm probably I'm probably a little bit in the 27 camp that's gonna be a really good year as opposed to the second half of this year.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah. That's that's fair enough. And I think that's I think that's objective, right? But I what I like about that is that you're you you're you're s you're sort of saying, yes, there is a pathway to positivity, but we just have to keep putting those pegs in the board, keep building towards it, and um heaven in 27, eh?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, so they say.

SPEAKER_01

But you know, we can all make our own excuses, right? And um and there is still opportunity out there if you want it, and that's what we're hearing a lot of at the moment. There is opportunity there, you just got to work harder for it.

Subscribe Review And Stay Connected

SPEAKER_00

I don't think I can end the podcast better than on those words. Mike, that's been such an enjoyable conversation. Um, 45 minutes has absolutely flown past. Thank you so much again for coming in um and sharing the the your perspectives, the research, the outlook here. Um, I can't wait to sit back here in 2027, and I'm hoping that we can make this an annual thing, but in 2027 and seeing where we land and seeing what the runway looks like in a year's time. Excellent. Thanks, Dal. That's that. Thanks for listening to We Do B2B by Blue Ocean. Now, Brace for CT8. If you want to join and grow the community, make sure to subscribe wherever your eyes and ears absorb information. Don't forget to switch on notifications so you know when the latest episodes drop. And for more B2B goodness, be sure to follow Blue Ocean, the B2B agency, on LinkedIn. Now look, you know how this next piece works. The more reviews we get, the faster this thing grows. So please do for us what you hope your customers would do for you. Leave a review and share your thoughts. Let's stay connected and keep the B2B marketing conversation going.

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Dale Koerner

Host