Why NZ Manufacturing Needs More Roar with John Cochrane

What does it take for New Zealand manufacturing to compete on the world stage? In this episode, we sit down with John Cochrane, a seasoned manufacturing leader with global experience across the US, China, and New Zealand. John shares insights from his career working in complex, high-tech manufacturing environments, offering a unique perspective on what makes New Zealand businesses capable of solving some of the world’s toughest challenges.

We get into what New Zealand does well, where we tend to hold ourselves back, and why the way we show up internationally matters more than we think. From building trust and relationships through to leadership and long-term thinking, John brings a grounded view on what it really takes to grow beyond our local market. It’s a practical look at how Kiwi businesses can step up, back themselves, and compete globally.

For more B2B insights, ideas and opportunities, head to www.blueoceanagency.co.nz

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Transcript

Welcome To B2B Inspired

SPEAKER_00 0:03

Yola and welcome back to B2B Inspired, Podcast by Blue Ocean, where we undertake the ins, outs, ups and downs of all things business to business here in LTA and New Zealand. From emerging trends of thinking to the inspiring real-world stories and experiences of inspired good people from within our ecosystem, we're here to help the New Zealand B2B community to become one of the best, boldest, and brightest anywhere in the world. Now, if like me you live and breathe all things business to business and you're looking for a place to connect, learn and be inspired, you have come to the right place. I'm really excited by the conversation we're about to have today. Um myself, I come from a background of engineering. I've always been involved in techy specky weird businesses. And one of the things that I love about B2B is how many of them are hiding in plain sight. Now we're joined today by John Cochran, who has a uh a deep and colourful career in the space of manufacturing. Um and we're here to talk about manufacturing in New Zealand, its presence on the world stage, and what we can uh what we can do as a nation of manufacturers to really, really sort of level up here. So John, thank you so much. Dale, really my pleasure to be here. Thank you. Deep and colourful, I like that too. Yeah, we'll uh we'll we'll we'll we'll take that, we'll keep it in the back pocket. So, first and foremost, tell us a little bit about John. Um what's your background? Take yeah, take care of it.

SPEAKER_01 1:31

Well, I think first thing the audience is gonna hear is a residual American accent. Yeah. Can't get away from that. So, yes, I grew up in the US in Los Angeles, had a very uh idyllic Southern California childhood, you can say, and came to New Zealand in 1999, expecting to only stay here for a year, but you know, the country gets its hooks into you and fell in love with a job I had at the time and the place and have stayed. And so New Zealand is absolutely home now.

SPEAKER_00 1:57

Oh, fantastic. And and just to take us through a little bit, you know, some of the the the businesses that you've been involved in in New Zealand, some of the organizations you've been involved in as well, because you you you've seen it from a few different angles, right?

SPEAKER_01 2:08

Yes, that's right. So since arriving in New Zealand, what what brought me here was a job opportunity. Um I was, uh, which is a great part of the story, I think, was a sole US-based employee of a Christchurch technology company. Yep. And did that for about two years in the US. And then I got a phone call one day and said, Hey, what would I think about coming to New Zealand again for that one year? Yeah. Um and I said, sure, why not? Packed everything up, came here, and about six months into it, convinced myself that I really wanted to stay. So that was a company down in Christchurch that's uh developed and sold uh complex technologies, handheld instruments, electronics for diagnosing faults and industrial machinery, quite a niche industry. Um then um we successfully sold that business. An opportunity came up to go into the public sector, so NZTE, I was a trade commissioner in China for five years. Wow. And that was also a focus on the manufacturing sector and manufactured products. Came back after that and settled here in Auckland, and uh, for most of the time have been with a company called Faction, formerly part of Fisher and Picle Appliances.

SPEAKER_00 3:16

Yeah, which is which is how we came to know each other. That's right. And you've you've recently um achieved what you needed to achieve there, and it's time for the next chapter, is that right? It is, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:25

I guess we can get into that through the conversation. But yeah, it was seven years, seven and a bit, yeah, and uh quite an interesting journey through the COVID years and border closures and all those things. But yes, now time for something new and different.

SPEAKER_00 3:37

Fantastic. So, how did you end up in the manufacturing space? Was it a passion from way back? Did you stumble into it? I would say luck has a lot to do with it.

SPEAKER_01 3:46

But as a kid growing up, um a bit of a tinkerer, you might say, loved things mechanical, um, lawnmowers, motorcycles, mini-bikes, bicycles, what have you. Um but I was really lucky that my first real job in the US was in semiconductor research and development. I got highly, highly and critically technical. Yeah. So I started my career at Xerox. Um people familiar with the semi uh the Silicon Valley story would know Xerox Park, Palo Alto Research Center. I worked as part of the Southern inside the Southern California division of that. So surrounded by incredibly gifted intelligent engineers working on cutting-edge technology.

SPEAKER_00 4:28

And how did you then come to uh hook into a business based out of Christchurch? I just I just want to understand that.

SPEAKER_01 4:33

Well, that I think is an interesting part of the New Zealand story, is is just travel and being out there in the world. So when I was living in LA, um I met uh a Kiwi fellow, a Kiwi couple in fact, became friends. And it wasn't until several years later uh that that friendship emerged into a job opportunity to be that one trusted guy, the one guy, the jack of all trades who could help them out in the US.

SPEAKER_00 4:58

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 4:59

Yeah.

Building Machines That Make Machines

SPEAKER_00 5:00

I think it's it's interesting there that there's a very, very tight personal connection, you know, a friendship that actually then turns into someone of your caliber and your experience actually coming and calling New Zealand home. I I think that we're gonna get to a point of the conversation here today where that that I think is gonna echo with some of the um the themes that we'll talk about. Because certainly one of the things that that I think we observe um with with New Zealand manufacturing businesses is there is a there's a likability aspect um to the way that New Zealand trades and and shows up that when done well um definitely is a is a magnet that pulls people and and business and investment towards us. Um so tell us a little bit about um your time at uh at Faction, if you will. I mean, because it's it's a it's a business, we've we've had a lot of very interesting conversations about it. Um and I mean fascinating in what you were running there.

SPEAKER_01 5:59

Yeah, yeah. No, it really, really interesting story. So um, yeah, came back from China, um, worked uh in kind of a contract role with uh city government here for a wee while um which allowed me to to build up a good professional network in the city and to get to know people and kind of get a feel since Auckland wasn't where I'd come from. Christchurch was my uh former home. Um and um so I started looking to get back into private sector, and I wanted to try and find something in again, manufacturing, ideally high-tech space. But another part of my career had become quite focused on China. So, where do the two lines kind of intersect, the manufacturing technology and China? And that's where Faction came along. So, again, as mentioned, Faction was part of uh Fisher and Pychel appliances. Um, Faction, we the tagline we like to use is we make the machines that make your machines. Yeah, so the factory machinery that goes into the factories that build the dish drawers and the refrigerators and the cooktops and things. So very, very bespoke. Um most every project is a one-off. Uh you don't get many repeats, and the customer requirements are getting more and more demanding all the time. Higher performance, lower cost, all of that.

SPEAKER_00 7:17

Uh one of the things that always amazed me there was uh when you look at the scale and complexity of some of those systems that you guys were developing, the fact that uh uh it was a New Zealand-based business that could solve those problems always struck me as remarkable. Um so what what is it about the mindset or the the the worldview here in New Zealand that actually lets us uh genuinely play on the world stage with some of these really innovative spaces?

SPEAKER_01 7:45

Yeah, well I think I have to give all due credit to Fisher and Peichel Appliances and the Fisher, the greater Fisher and Peichel organization for their culture of of innovation and ingenuity that's been around for decades. And so, of course, we were imbued with that DNA as well. So um the way it was told to me, because of course it predates my involvement, was is that when Fisher and Peichel wanted to say debut a new product, but do it in a kind of, shall we say, secretive way, um, you're looking at new product innovations, think about the dist drawer back when it was first introduced. There was nothing like that on the market. Well, how do you do that in a secretive way, protect your IP, um, be able to get to market, and still be a relatively, compared to local competitors, global competitors, a low-volume manufacturer. The only way you can do that is with very, very highly flexible production lines, which was unique to the New Zealand and Australasian manufacturing environment. So rather than getting it outsourced, Fisher and PyCle executives decided we had to develop this capability in-house.

SPEAKER_00 8:49

So that's interesting then, because when we when when you when you talk about the the the need for flexibility, does that does that come from scale here in New Zealand? You know, we're we're not producing the same piece of equipment for millions and millions and millions of of um of products. We need the ability to do smaller batches and be more flexible. Is that sort of where that came from? That's right.

SPEAKER_01 9:10

I mean, home appliance industry in many ways mirrors what's happened in the automotive industry is you have common platforms as such, but still you need different dimensional sizes, different finishes, and so on. So but of course, within the economics of manufacturing, you want to minimize the labor costs, you want to minimize floor space, of course, minimize the capital expense as well. So uh uh pieces of machinery, machine trains that then can do multiple things pay dividends.

What Complex Manufacturing Requires

SPEAKER_00 9:39

Fantastic. So I I think at this point, hopefully the people listening have got a fair sense of scale of the complexity of the environment that you've come from. What what what do you see make what is the hallmark of something that that that you would class as as high-tech or complex in the manufacturing space?

SPEAKER_01 9:58

When I think about complex, um I have to reflect on um a framework that I was only exposed to not that many years ago in the Kunaven, sort of four or five quadrants or five spaces. Okay. You've got simple and or clear, uh complicated and complex. Um complex, I guess another way of another way of describ describing that perhaps with a bit of a cliche is where you've got multiple unknown unknowns. You can have known unknowns and then the unknown unknowns. Okay. So you're not you're not fully into the chaos mode where nothing is figure-outable. Um, but again, you're working in a space where it's not been done before. Yes, there's elements that might have been done before, but this thing that you need to create has not been made before. And um working in our kind of environment, there's no second chance, there's no prototype, there's no MVP, and then do it again. Yeah. You've got to deliver a working functional, production-worthy prototype, basically. Okay. So highly, highly complex.

SPEAKER_00 10:55

Wow. And you I suppose you have a a slightly unique perspective to look back at New Zealand coming from the US, having spent so much time in China, and also being on the ground here. Where does New Zealand sit on the world stage in that how good are we at at complex? How good are we at complex manufacturing?

SPEAKER_01 11:15

I think when it comes to the let's talk about just the engineering piece for a moment, kind of keep it to that definition. Yeah. I think just awesome, phenomenal. Again, as a person who has worked in multiple markets and again has had engineering capabilities assessed from um potential investors and so on. There is something about just the New Zealand approach to, yeah, A, we'll give it a go. Um and B to think outside that square. I know I'm destroying cliches again out there, but it's so true. It's just part of the New Zealand DNA and it's it's just recognized worldwide. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:50

I'm gonna draw a par parallel there though, because I I think we do have that um call it number eight wire, call it, you know, uh innovation driven from distance uh and and isolation. We we do have, I think, a reputation there, but I think we also as a collective body of businesses have a a slight Achilles heel in the way that we actually go and show up with confidence. And this is something that we were talking about before. So if if the the innovation is the um the good wolf, yeah, that that confidence piece or the way that we actually show up and communicate it feels like the to use you know the bad wolf to finish the analogy there. What's what's your take on that?

SPEAKER_01 12:31

Oh, I completely agree. I think um yeah, business, a business itself is a complex machine, or in some cases people refer to it as a living organism.

SPEAKER_00 12:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:42

And getting business structure right relative to the talent and the capabilities in that business is every bit as important as getting the finished product right. Um especially where export markets and overseas markets are can are concerned, um all the more so it's about selling who you are as a business, as a company, as a people, as a tribe, shall we say, yeah, than just selling the widget, the product. And I think that's where there could there's still a lot of room to grow.

SPEAKER_00 13:13

I I remember talking to you about at one point a client of yours in the past had described that the nature of the business is like it's like working with the Germans, but with a sense of humor. Yes. That's right. Um I I'm really interested in that because the the the personality aspect of that is is something which I don't think makes it to the forefront that often, if I'm honest. And and those businesses that do kind of skyrocket, they've they've they've lent into that. But what holds what holds New Zealand businesses or manufacturers back from being from showing more personality and from leading with that?

SPEAKER_01 13:51

Yeah, I think a little bit is just just the good old Kiwi humility, um which is a which is a good thing in many cases, but there's a time where again you've got to put on whether it's the black jersey or something and bring some roar into it, bring some bring some voice, bring a haka into it, so to speak. Um no, I mean I I really love telling that story because about the the German engineering, the German quality, but with a sense of humor. Yeah. Um because the the man who spoke that to us was um initially not wanting to do business with us. Okay. Yeah, so he was the decision came from above. He was more or less the project manager responsible for the outcome.

SPEAKER_00 14:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:31

Um, but when the project was finally delivered, he was delighted, and he became later one of our strongest champions and advocates inside that company. So yeah, um understanding that especially the more expensive, the more committed um that that buying decision is, um the old again, another cliche out there, you know, people, it's not companies buying from companies, people buying from people.

SPEAKER_00 14:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:55

And they really, really want to know the people. And I have to say that I guess to add to that is where possible, bringing the companies or the customers, representatives into New Zealand whenever possible is a great game changer as well. Okay. Let them experience the country, whether it's the landscapes, the food, the hospitality, the sense of humor, all of that. Really, really helpful.

SPEAKER_00 15:18

So if the advice there is if you're sitting on a big deal, get them on a flight.

SPEAKER_01 15:22

Yes, yes. Wow, okay. I remember telling one one executive from America, he was doing a bit of a triangular global journey, and he was coming from China to New Zealand. And I said, make sure, make sure you must fly Air New Zealand. I said, that's part of the brand experience. And he did, he listened, and he was yes, he was very, very happy with that.

SPEAKER_00 15:42

Enjoyed the safety video, hopefully got a sky couch or something better. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now, there was a phrase that you used just before, which was to bring a little more of a roar and and bring the hacker into the way that you show it. We talked about it just before we we came into the studio here. It's actually the first time that I've heard anyone um frame the way that we show up in that context. Walk us back through that story because I think it's it's it's something that will resonate here.

SPEAKER_01 16:07

Well, I think, yeah. I mean, I the first time I heard that, I I I say I can't claim that quote as my own origination, but it it came from um an advisor into the New Zealand Trade Enterprise when I was working with NZTE and just talking about how New Zealand people uh show up in in overseas boardroom environments. Yeah. And it was one of those advisors that said that who had come to appreciate New Zealand's uniqueness, is bring the haka into the boardroom. Um, and particularly when, again, some of our slang, shall we say, or relaxed language is I've talked to some of my team before about we often will say in New Zealand, oh, we're looking at this, we're looking at that. Which sounds a bit waffly, a bit non-committal.

SPEAKER_00 16:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:50

Um, and even just changing that language a little bit, we are going to, we aim to, we intend to, is is a bit more stronger, a bit more intentional, especially when the customer is looking for signals, body language, all of that, to are they gonna spend millions of dollars with you?

SPEAKER_00 17:07

They want that commitment. They do. I mean it it's so interesting. I mean the I I sat here a few weeks ago with um Mike Stokes from Indicator and we talked through their mood of the sales leader report. And a couple of things strike me here. Uh Mike talked about um brand and trust as being one of the biggest um differentiators in whether a deal goes forward or not. So coming from uh, you know, if you are a brand that is communicating a trustworthy position, that you've got that, you know, you've got that tenure, you've got that um credibility, that is a thing that hands down will win deals. But the other thing that went hand in hand with that was this piece around New Zealand's investment in sales training. Yes, yeah. And what I'm hearing you say there is actually there's there's probably a bit of a gap there around how New Zealanders and New Zealand businesses, when they are going overseas, how they show up with confidence, how they they I don't want to say lean into bravado because that's not that's not the right approach there, I don't think. But how they actually use language to be um compelling to make sure that they are communicating confidence and and action, like you said, rather than yeah, we're thinking about it, or I mean it's that time old story of, oh yeah, we're we're pretty good at what we do. Yeah, yeah. And I I remember talking to David Downs from New Zealand story about that. And he said it's one of the it's one of the most crushing things to hear a Kiwi business say overseas because you erode the trust.

SPEAKER_01 18:31

Yeah, yeah, we're a bit all right, you know, kind of thing.

SPEAKER_00 18:33

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, we we don't go so bad.

SPEAKER_01 18:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:37

Um so that's an area that that that Kiwi manufacturers do trip up. Um where where else? What what else are the other stumbling blocks that you've observed here?

SPEAKER_01 18:46

Well, let me just put a little underscore on that one a bit for a moment. As is one of my former bosses, I'd consider like a mentor, who was a real sales expert, I think a natural-born sales expert, often you loved acronyms. Okay. And he would often refer to the art of relationship and the ART being admired, respected, and then trusted. Okay. And he used it when he would talk to us about it in that sequence. Yes. Is first get something out there that the customer's gonna like about you. Yeah. Are you likable? Yes, you know, as as a company, as a people. Yeah. And yes, Kiwis, by and large, are likable folks. You know, okay, great, you've done that with tick. Next, go to the restract uh respected piece.

SPEAKER_00 19:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:25

And now that respected could be engineering competency, you know, financial capabilities to deliver on time and so on, all of that. Then there's that trust, but you can't get to trust it unless you get the first two done. Yeah. So yeah, I think that's that's a lesson I've taken with me for several years since is to not put the cart before the horse. Yeah. Is the trust will come, but first work on the admiration piece and that respect.

SPEAKER_02 19:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:51

And that respect, again, going both ways, is do we invest, so going back to sales training, do we invest in learning about the customer's organization?

SPEAKER_00 19:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:59

Are they on the upside or are they in a downside? Are they in a sunset industry or in an emerging industry? You know, are they facing competitor threats? Are they losing market share? Are they in growth mode? And to demonstrate some of that knowledge, to mirror it, even in those conversations, is part of that respect piece that we've done our homework, we've done our research on the customer.

SPEAKER_00 20:22

Yeah. And it's one of those things that that doesn't have to be an arduous process anymore. I mean, there are tools now that that, you know, an AI tool that will help you prep on not just the industry and the company, but what the person almost had for breakfast, you know?

SPEAKER_01 20:36

That's right. That's right. Well, even sitting in a boardroom and if, you know, again, LinkedIn tools, whatever they are, is noting a person's career history and referencing that in meetings. Yeah. Oh, Bill, I noticed over there you you spent five years at that company. What were your challenges there? And just letting that person speak to their motivations and drivers. Yeah. Yeah. So important.

SPEAKER_00 20:57

It it's interesting to to hear that you know you have a former um boss there who who's really coached you in that sales space. I mean, it's it's fascinating. I I I can I I have two um of my from my own personal journey. One who'd come from IBM, who was I would regard as one of the most fluent salespeople that I have ever come across. Not that it was natural, um, it was learned, yeah, um, and it became natural once it was learned. Yeah. Um, and then the other one who I actually fundamentally disagreed with his entire worldview, but the way that he would ask questions and probe was grounding in in how um polarizing it was is probably the right way to put that. He was one of those people who wouldn't he wouldn't be afraid to call bullshit on failure. Yes. You know, it's very easy to you know front up to a sales meeting and how did you go on your quota last month? And you know, you can justify why, and you can say, Oh, it was the economy that meant we didn't get there, and this would happen. And he would always come back to the point, say you failed. Yeah, that's right. You need those people. You do need those people, you do need those people. Yeah. So there's there's an area there that the Kiwi manufacturers trip up. Anything else that you observe here? And doesn't have to be within the sales space here either. I mean, businesses are, like you said, it's a complex living ecosystem.

Ants Teach Focus And Exploration

SPEAKER_01 22:13

Yeah, well, without going into details, I'm and we did mention before jumping into the room here that I've recently been invited to sit on a panel for the many uh Minister for Manufacturing Awards, which is giving me some exposure to some amazing companies, large and small. Um, and again, I won't name drop there, but just really, really impressed with what's going on in the manufacturing space. Um, I think pitfalls are, you know, you're you've always got, I was reading somewhere recently where they were talking about, oh, it was it was in um Annie Duke's book, Quit. And she was talking about what can you learn from ants and how we often see ants, you've left something out on the counter, and there's that trail of ants. Um, and you know, they're they're following in that marching line, and for all the the biological reasons or what have you. But there's always the stray ants that are out there that seem to be either not in line, and we look at it, we might think it's a bit humorous. Well, have they lost the plot or what? Yeah. But it is actually part of the way that ants work is there's a ratio of sticking to your knitting, sticking to the expanding, sticking to the exploiting, and another subgroup that explores. Yeah. Explore out there exploring for another food source, another something else. My personal opinion, I'd say, is we probably in New Zealand don't get that ratio right. I think, you know, we think about the, again, the inch deep, mile wide, or and so on. We're probably seeing too much of too many technologies trying to be developed inside a business, okay. Trying to be all things for all sorts of people. Yeah. Or even conversely, you know, we're we're we're beholden to a single sector, a single geography, a single technology. So trying to find that sweet spot of what's that ratio between breadth and depth, I think, is is something that a lot more business leaders should be looking at.

SPEAKER_00 24:00

I I didn't expect us to come in here and talk about ants, but I like that. I love I love that. That parallel um between the the way that the natural world has built itself resilience and and how can we apply that into business. I had a a similar conversation um with a guy just down in the South Island last week about the various different phenotypes that you get within um plant populations and how they will vary. Just to come back to the answer, is there a golden ratio there? Of of I and again, the language there of exploit and explore. Is there a ratio there? Yeah, well that not that I've discovered yet anyway.

SPEAKER_01 24:35

And I think it really depends probably a bit more on the product or the technology you are trying to promote. So um going back to Faction, we did not have as such a repeatable, packageable product to sell. Yeah. You're selling expertise. Yeah. So it was really a lot more about a very finite customer grouping, but then, or and I should say not, but and then as you get embedded within that customer grouping, finding out other pain points within their businesses. So, you know, securing that good, solid relationship, um, and again, not innovating for innovation's sake, but finding those pain points. And again, that comes back to that customer intimacy, yeah. Being really, really close with the customer, um, whether it's being on the shop floor or dinners or boardrooms or a combination of all of that is really understanding what they need next.

SPEAKER_00 25:30

And not being afraid to ask for the business. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. I think that's a thing again, you know, we we've we've monitored a lot of that NZ story research, and I over the years, you know, we've done a lot of work, I suppose, with Tourism New Zealand and whatever else like that. We've we're always looking at how is New Zealand perceived globally. And the if we compare Australia and New Zealand, we are at a business, we're a nation that it that is afraid to say, hey, let's do something together. Hey, hit the Oh, it's absolutely right.

SPEAKER_01 25:59

Sorry to interrupt. I think just asking in general, again, asking, can we have dinner? Asking, again, thinking about fatum. Hey, can you can you give me a guide? Can I walk the factory floor with somebody? Yeah. Okay, not with that executive.

SPEAKER_00 26:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:14

But because I really want to see and experience, frankly, even smell sometimes what's going on inside of those factories.

SPEAKER_00 26:24

It's so interesting to me because the the visceral experience of walking through somewhere is is so fascinating. I mean, I grew up with parents who ran a precision engineering firm. And I I can smell foot coolant a mile off. And I I love being in an environment where there are as soon as you're milling metal, there's this wonderful thing that happens in any office, which is that you get this taper trail of um of swarf, little metal offcuts, and every doorway there's a triangle from where there's stuff on the floor that gradually wears off on the carpet. Yes. But there's there's so much, there's so much value in in walking the floor. Uh I mean we we see it all the time as well. It's one of when we're out and getting under the hood of a business. Yes, we'll go and spend time in the boardroom with whoever we need to talk to there, but the one thing that I'll you know we'll always kind of specify is cool, give us an hour to just walk around the business. That's right. See how people interact with each other, see the bottlenecks, and you get such a different perspective. And it's I don't know, I mean, I'm I'm maybe casting uh unjustified aspersions on or nasturtiums, the flower, on um on on other marketers here, but I do really, really hope that that there is that that appetite to get under the hood and do that piece because particularly in in B2B, particularly in manufacturing, particularly in complex, it's so important. Yeah. It really is.

SPEAKER_01 27:49

And I've and I cannot um count, I cannot even think in you know fact in and in in earlier businesses um where I've ever had a no, basically, you know, where you know, but it but you just gotta have that courage to just ask. Yeah. And again, maybe again, as I said earlier, it's not that particular executive. He's not he or she are not gonna give you the tour, but can you give me somebody who's gonna give me a walkthrough? Yeah. Yeah, and there's so much to be learned from that.

AI For Specs Contracts And Fit

SPEAKER_00 28:14

And you I don't I don't know if you've noticed this in New Zealand as well, but you always get the pink high-ves jacket. You always get the one that no one wants to steal. It's so funny. It's always it's always this funny moment whenever we go around, you're like, okay, the pink one's ours. Yeah, the pink one's for the sales guy. Yeah, that's yeah, not an engineer. You never qualify for the orange or the yellow one. Um okay, it's 2026. We have to we have to use the words AI at some point in this conversation. Where do you see that showing up in the manufacturing space?

SPEAKER_01 28:43

Um now, again, I've I've only recently started using AI myself, so I would be far from an expert on it. But um I think it's just just an incredible future to it. Um at the very least, I'll give you some examples of some uses we've seen in the business cases, just even document comparison. Um, you know, sometimes you're working in a space where there's an RFP or RFQ process. Yeah. Um and AI is great for looking at, you know, because we found cases where even within the customer's documentation, there are conflicts. Um yeah, a great a quick scan through that. Yeah. Um, some cases, some of our businesses in New Zealand are working within a regulatory environment where that needs to be um adhered to. So again, is that that's a great case. Again, so that research. Um we've I've seen AI used um a bit more in image representation or confirmation that spatially things will work out in a kind of three three-dimensional architectural style environment. Yeah, so helping the customers see how uh certain machinery might actually fit and operate within their factory environment.

How To Rescue A Failing Project

SPEAKER_00 29:54

Uh and certainly that that contracting piece is uh that's such a solid use case for it. You know, I I I uh yeah, that that makes a lot of sense. And I guess it was it's also one of those areas that it feels um contracts are either something that a business is really good at or is still skinning its knees on, you know, it's still falling over with. Cool. Um so we've talked about some of the areas that New Zealand trips up, we've talked about where tech is headed within the space to an extent. But where do you see that New Zealand has unfair advantages that it that it could be leaning into more on the world stage when it comes to manufacturing or engineering?

SPEAKER_01 30:35

I'll think of just a combination of hypothetical and real. Um again, Dale, you you worked with us at Fation a bit and and we talked at times about sort of the the willingness to take on projects that I often said would scare other companies. Yeah. And yes, okay, that sounds like it's a little bit of a of again, a a bit of a laugh, a bit of a you know, tongue-in-cheek way of looking at things, but the reality uh is there to back it up. I mean, there was a case at Fation where a customer was um in really, really dire strait, shall we say, because another vendor had failed to deliver our project. And they went to us and a few other vendors, the customer did, looking for a rescue. And the other customers either one, refused, or two, priced it so high because it was going to be seen as risky. They put difficult tax on it, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And we came in with uh a proposition that um really just had a longer term view. And I guess that's probably the thing I wanna I wanna emphasize is it's not just a one-off deal. You know, again, what do you what can we do as as business leaders, as manufacturing leaders, to cement a relationship with our customers overseas. Yes, we have it sometimes the tyranny of distance, but that's again where that trust comes in. Trust, I think, is the great mitigator of that concern around distance. So being able to successfully rescue that project, um, which in turn helped the customer make sure they delivered a much, much larger program of work on time led to um a lot of repeat business, very good repeat business. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:15

I mean it it's a difficult thing to I suppose to to sell uh and to convince a client on that it's probably possible when you know assurity and certainty is always going to be a thing that will that will help um you know a sales opportunity tick over. Um but yeah, how how do you how do you navigate that that that sense that you know we'll give it a crack, we think we've got a solution for it, but it might still fall on its face?

SPEAKER_01 32:44

Yeah, um again, it's it's it's an and and solution. Um documentation does come into it, so when the when a contract or proposal is written, supported by lots of communication, really, really good communication. So even then, you know, things like Teams meetings and so on or other virtual meeting tools where transcripts are kept and those sorts of things. Um if you ever do find yourself in a he says, he said, she said moment, you've got at least a record of it. Um but even with all of that, there's still some times where things are just left out. And that's again, I have to just emphasize, emphasize, that's where building on credible, durable, goodwill, you know, that this wasn't us just cutting corners, this wasn't us forgetting something between us, the greater us, we just missed this piece. Yeah, you know, and and now this is a much bigger problem, not a bigger problem, but it's a the problem is not just the vendors to solve, it's ours to solve. Collectively. Yeah, collectively. Yeah. And I've again I've never had a customer push back on buying into that concept. Yeah.

Brand New Zealand As A Sales Asset

SPEAKER_00 33:51

Um, one of the things that we talked about earlier on was uh the value of bringing someone over into New Zealand to actually experience the place, um, get a feel for who we are as a as a collective nation. Um how how else do you see um New Zealand manufacturers or exporters even actually putting the made in New Zealand or the brand New Zealand piece to to work? Um some fantastic resources from within the entered story structure, which I love, um, but I do sometimes see businesses shying away from saying we're a Kiwi business, we're a Kiwi business and proud. So how how do you see people navigating and tackling that?

SPEAKER_01 34:32

Well, I think we've got now, compared to say uh several years ago when I was working with the Christchurch business, um, the benefit of like New Zealand's story and their asset base, you know, whether it's digital or otherwise, and being able to tell to lead with a New Zealand branded story. Um again, talking about that Christchurch business, because we didn't have New Zealand story at the time, we unashamedly sort of poached stole borrowed storytelling from other iconic New Zealand businesses. Okay. So again, referencing Air New Zealand. Um when Air New Zealand originally introduced the SkyCouch, we used that to tell a story. As you know, any airline could have invented that. Any airline, right? Why did it take a New Zealand airline and New Zealand thinking to invent something like that, both as not only the technology of how the seat functions, but the customer benefit of having that kind of a seat and that kind of a flying experience. And there were other companies of that time that we continued to say look at a brand experience, or again, often have to say the sense of humor, the the Kiwi personality coming through, um, going back to that art is a bit of an attraction. And I think we can lean into that, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 35:43

I I I I 100% agree with you on that. Um I think there is this there's often this notion that, particularly in in really sort of high stakes and technical, um, that that you need to be austere, that you need to be corporate toe the line. And there are areas where that is absolutely true. Like when you're going through contracting, when you're going through the design specifications, you have to be bulletproof. Of course you do. But but I think it is still worth coming back to that sense that you know people do actually do business with people that they like. Yes. That's I see that as an unfair advantage that New Zealand should be exploiting, but often I don't think is. Yeah, I th I agree with you, Deal.

SPEAKER_01 36:26

I think we we do it well when we're here talking to each other in the country, but get on a plane, go to the American environment or a European environment or uh like a Chinese environment, and we we lose sight of it. Um But some of that is just being self-effacing as well, you know, whether in a and sometimes we talk about Asian environments and you know as a more formal culture, and that's great that we can mirror some of that. Yeah. But they also want to see who we are, right? So if that's around a banquet table, as the case may be, or something else, yeah. We just be ourselves and it's okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:59

Um what's the most memorable banquet you had in China? Sorry, just a completely left-of-field question there, because I'm sure there were some stories.

SPEAKER_01 37:08

Oh I'll I'll tell you about two. They both, of course, involved a fair amount of alcohol, but um I was still very, very new to visiting China and and not really well exposed to the the drinking culture and and the banqueting culture. But I was invited out to um a business, and this is in the early 2000s, and it was a lunch. Okay. And it was one of the largest round table banquets that I think I've ever participated in. Well over, must have been 30 people around the table. Wow. And there was only me and one colleague who were the only uh non-Chinese at the table. And of course, there was the attempt of we have to toast, and every single person came around and gave us an individual toast. So you've had sort of 30, yes, little but still powerful shots at lunchtime. Uh and that was one of my introductory um, but um what happened from that is again, um they see who you are, right? Okay, now it may not be appropriate in every environment, but part of that in that culture at that time was do they let their guard down? Do they change? Who are they, you know, in that? Because whether it's, shall we say, you know, a junior person or the executive, do we how do we respond with a different sort of hierarchy and so on? Yeah. So with that particular customer, it was interesting in that um we it was they never turned into a big, big customer in terms of a lot of dollars, but they were very loyal and they always became a referenceable customer. Yes, yeah, yeah. So, okay, you you don't know about us, talk to that gentleman over there. Yeah. He'll tell you why you should be doing business with us. Really good sort of strategic partnership. Yeah. And there was a similar experience about a year ago, but anyway. But that one I have to say was interesting because it was a mixed group around the table. Yeah. Um in China, and including um uh from I say mixed around multiple countries around the table. And I was perceived as being probably the foreigner, the non-Chinese with the most China experience. So they were all the all the other foreigners were watching me. What is Zhang gonna do? What's he gonna do? Is he gonna eat that food? Is he gonna do this or whatever? Is he gonna wait until such and such is eaten? Yeah, yeah. And it turned out to be a really good evening, uh, really fun. Um, and again, barriers were broken down, eroded, you know, nicely as a result. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:35

I I like the systematized approach to getting someone off their guard by giving them 30 successive shots and seeing if they still have the same button. Yeah. Oh, fantastic. Um so one of the things that we talked about just just before we came on air, so to speak, was just how many fascinating businesses are hiding in plain sight within New Zealand. I mean, within our own client base, you know, you've got businesses who are 60 years old, they'll employ a hundred people, they'll have done so for the last, you know, 60 years, and the the people in the in the building next door to them don't even know what they do. That's right. Um so who are you who who are you excited about? Who are you seeing in the in in this space within New Zealand that you think, geez, that's a story worth telling?

SPEAKER_01 40:21

Um so I can talk company names? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, okay. Well, some interesting ones that I've been exposed to is again things that I've been reading and learning about as I'm now out there exploring what what might come next for me. Um again, first exposed to them some years ago, not that I have a great intimate knowledge, but Dawn Aerospace. Um phenomenal story, I think doing some amazing things. Um you might think that Rocket Lab is sort of a a a one-trick pony, a one-hit wonder, shall we say, for New Zealand, but here another company and and more behind them are working into this aerospace industry and showing that New Zealand has a role to play in that. And it's fascinating, right?

SPEAKER_00 40:59

I mean, I remember that there's there's again there's another stat which supports the the just how clear the airspace over New Zealand is. And it's one thing that you don't even think about as an unfair advantage, but from the perspective of being able to put stuff in the air to test, New Zealand's a brilliant place. Yeah. Because we don't have through traffic, you know? Like we don't have planes flying overhead and whatever else like that, because we are the end point.

SPEAKER_01 41:24

Yeah. Another company that um is doing some interesting things, particularly around you know, social good, environmental good is the PACT group. So recycled plastics. Yeah, okay. So uh taking plastics so it's it's local supply of the raw material, meaning disposable plastics, but repurposing those into even food grade products. Wow, okay. Um and again, heavy investment into the process, the the equipment, materials, the know-how to make that happen. So we're not shipping our plastic overseas anymore as a country, or not as much anyway. And we're you know, we're repurposing and and contributing to that circular economy.

SPEAKER_00 42:00

So I think what interests me with with with sort of clean tech businesses like that, and there are some really, really good ones. I mean, Nilo stands out for me as well as one that's you know, they're turning plastic into adhesive products, which is brilliant, and re-reintroducing that into the into the building space. Um the the guys are is it cleanstone, I think they're called. I'll have to double check on the name of it, but again, turning plastics into um finishing products, bench top products that that look absolutely beautiful. Um, you know, that they're designed to look like jade and everything else like that. It's amazing. But there is a there is a real driver, I think, within New Zealand that because we come from such a beautiful small part of the world, that that emphasis on actually how much we upweight the environmental aspect, I think is that that feels like that could be an unfair advantage for us as well. You know, that's I think so too, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:50

I mean I think talking with other business people for for many, many years, um I think again there's a little bit of an unfair um view that all New Zealand has to play on globally is primary industries. Yeah. And no doubt there's there's a there's an advantage there in the primary industry space. So if you are a manufacturer and you're not producing a dairy product, well, what can you go to market with? But I think that's that's a fallacy. It really, really is. There's there's there's there are many elements of the New Zealand country brand image that can be worked on. Um again, even I'm just thinking about some of the um activity going on in in the movie making space, right? We've seen online posts about um Jason Momoa and Taika Waititi and Cliff Curtis buying studios and these sorts of things. Anything that draws attention to the country and creativity in general, I think helps with manufacturing as well.

A Bold Plan For Manufacturing Jobs

SPEAKER_00 43:44

Yeah, yeah. And particularly in that innovation space. I I I absolutely agree. I think one of the things that sits around that as well is what does that leadership context look like that enables that to happen? And you know, you you sit at sea level leadership, that's your space. What do you see? see as the hallmarks of good leadership in the context of manufacturing.

SPEAKER_01 44:06

I have to say it probably goes back to that ant analogy in a way. I mean that that balancing and it's it's never I mean it's never precision science is how much do we spend on exploring and researching and getting things wrong and failing versus sticking to our knitting and and exploiting, expanding on what we're already doing well. And a leader just has to have the confidence and it and ideally an informed confidence with marketing data and consumer trends and economic data. And thankfully again we we are in a country with our various government ministries and agencies where that kind of data is pretty readily available. And again as we talked earlier on AI tools AI tools can do a lot of crunching for us and summarizing for us to help us see you know where are the emerging opportunities so we can invest at the right point on the curve into the next thing whatever that whatever that will end up being I'm going to throw you a question here which um wasn't on the the the set of things that we talked about before.

SPEAKER_00 45:13

So this is straight off the screen but okay I've always I've always appreciated your your worldview. You have a relatively like rounded philosophy on the way that business works and the way that it intersects with with with all walks of life. Let's say that you are appointed tomorrow the role of um New Zealand Minister for manufacturing I don't even know if we have one we might do we probably do. And you're given the magic wand to say let's make New Zealand the most recognizable small innovative manufacturing industry on the planet. What do we do?

SPEAKER_01 45:53

Wow a lot in that um well I have to say I I my views come from my time in the public sector and um which was an incredible experience. I learned because again going from the Christchurch company into NZTE, you know you're head down, bum up, blinkers on, you're in your own business for 12 years or so. But then when you work inside an organization like NZTE, I've said to people, again I love analogies, it's like becoming a GP doctor you you're exposed to so many different patients, customers, clients, businesses and you can pick up so much knowledge from them. Yeah future so a takeaway for me that the part that's now become sort of truly part of my own DNA is a few beliefs. I think one, what's good for New Zealand is good for the world. Right? And I think that even though we're a small country island nation middle of nowhere what's good for New Zealand is good for the world. I absolutely believe that. And what's good for New Zealand I think is to peel that onion back a bit further is I can't say it any other way is other than high quality jobs. Yeah. And that's not just pay pay is obviously a part of it but the working environment the culture the development all of that providing high quality jobs to our next generation of workers or an emerging generation of workers is a phenomenally aspirational goal. I mean it's a great great goal how do we keep this country prosperous and I think manufacturing has a lot of opportunity to do that. Gone are the days is where manufacturing was in a dimly lit factory hot environment you know manufacturing today is can be very high tech, can be very artistic, can be very creative computer skills, all those things come into manufacturing so I think if I was Minister for manufacturing started at what I say primary school level, secondary school level, a bit more speaking up about manufacturing as a future for the country to sit alongside the primary industry's piece.

SPEAKER_00 48:00

Yeah that's so interesting and we hear the same thing I think echoed in the software as a services industry you know like getting kids exposed or that next generation exposed to to what's possible and that it doesn't need to be a milk product or a beef product in order for you to have a runway there. That's right. That's um yeah I I I I really like that and that that philosophy that what's good for New Zealand is good for the world that rings so true to me as well. We are at 48 minutes. Wow where did that go? Exactly are there are there any um are there any parting thoughts or words of wisdom that you you would want to share here other than to read what was the book?

SPEAKER_01 48:37

Quiz about Quit Quit Annie Duke, yes American author um really really interesting book. Yeah. I guess you know one gorilla you might say in the room is about political situations and people talking to me now as they hear the American accent and things you know what about uh what's going on in America? Look I think there's all sorts of reasons why people will revert to caution and it's over caution. You know, do you wear your seatbelt on the airplane when it's turbulence do you wear your seatbelt during the entire flight? Yes there's there's there's reasonable caution that should be applied. But having said that um I still think there's far more opportunity out there. And I think what I'm sensing is an overemphasis on hesitation. And I just think you can only hold your breath for so long before you need to take a breath you need to do something. Yeah and I think it's time for more New Zealand businesses to get out there and start doing something and not waiting for the the perfect market conditions. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:41

I don't think we can I don't think we can find a better a line a better line to wrap that episode up I l I love the I love the the the appetite the the hunger the confidence in that and I think if we can if we could create a community where that that outlook is shared I think we would we would all benefit from it. We would all rise right great yeah I think so well let's make that happen.

SPEAKER_01 50:04

Alright I'm ready yeah thank you so much John really appreciate it.

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SPEAKER_00 50:08

Likewise Dale thank you for having me that's that thanks for listening to we do B2B by BlueOcean. Now Brace for CTAs if you want to join and grow the community make sure to subscribe wherever your eyes and ears absorb information. Don't forget to switch on notifications so you know when the latest episodes drop and for more B2B goodness be sure to follow BlueOcean the B2B agency on LinkedIn. Now look you know how this next piece works the more reviews we get the faster this thing grows. So please do for us what you hope your customers would do for you. Leave a review and share your thoughts. Let's stay connected and keep the B2B marketing conversation going