The Anxiety Behind Speaking Up In Relationships | With Jayden Leigh

GUEST EPISODE 

Why is it so hard to speak up, set boundaries, ask for what we need, or have difficult conversations in our relationships?

In this episode of The Anxiety Compass, Sammy and Nat are joined by, Jayden Leigh Hargreaves, Emotional Intelligence Coach for Women, for a deep and thought-provoking discussion about anxiety, attachment, communication, masculinity, femininity, and the hidden childhood patterns that shape the way we relate to others.

Together, we explore what sits beneath our fear of speaking up, why so many people struggle with conflict, and how our earliest experiences can influence our adult relationships without us even realising it.

This conversation moves beyond surface-level relationship advice and dives into some of the bigger questions facing modern men and women today.

In this episode, we discuss:

• The anxiety behind speaking up and expressing our needs
• Childhood conditioning and where people-pleasing begins
• Attachment theory and how it shapes our adult relationships
• Fear of rejection, abandonment, criticism, and conflict
• Why so many people struggle to find and use their voice
• Modern masculinity and the challenges many men face around purpose, identity, and feeling needed
• Feminism, empowerment, and changing relationship dynamics
• The role patriarchy has played in shaping expectations for both men and women
• Emotional labour, resentment, and unspoken expectations
• Why healthy relationships require honest communication
• Understanding ourselves before trying to understand our partners

This is not a conversation about blaming men or women.

It's a conversation about understanding the forces that shape our beliefs, behaviours, relationships, and sense of self, so we can create deeper connection, healthier communication, and more authentic relationships.

Because sometimes changing the direction of The Anxiety Compass begins with finding the courage to speak your truth.

CONNECT WITH JAYDEN

WORK WITH JAYDEN 

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:00

Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of the Anxiety Compass. Hey Matt, how are you going? I'm really good, Sammy. How are you, my love? I'm fantastic. We've got a special guest on today, and I'm very, very excited. It is very exciting. If you've read my book, um, Jaden is actually mentioned in my book. And uh, we've invited Jaden on for a very special reason on the Anxiety Compass because Nat and I were talking the other day about uh in clinic, a lot of clients, particularly women, they are given a subscription. Uh, we give them advice on how to make a few changes so that they can feel better and start absorbing nutrients again and improve their health. And unfortunately, uh, a few weeks later or a month later, they come back to see us. And a lot of those changes they weren't able to make because they are living with someone who it can be quite uh overbearing and perhaps they haven't learnt the skills to sort of um empower themselves to to make these changes. And uh yeah, they're they're sort of so used to following someone else and you know, not the leader in their own life. So uh a big warm welcome to Jaden. Thanks for coming on. Hi, Jaden.

SPEAKER_01 1:18

Hey, hey, Sammy, great to see you guys.

SPEAKER_04 1:21

It's so good. I'm I'm so grateful that you've decided to come on. I absolutely love uh listening to you and watching the things that you put out on social media and you're on your YouTube now, which is very exciting. Uh, have you seen some of his YouTube stuff? Well, you've only put one video up, so yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:38

Well, yeah, I saw it. Absolutely. Yeah, because I've been following you for ages, ages, Jaden. You you're the work you do is just so important. Um, you know, I love what you're doing out there in the world.

SPEAKER_04 1:51

So, Jaden, Jaden Hargraves, I said your last name right, didn't I? I I've always got to check that. Uh, tell our audience what you actually do, who you are and what you actually do.

SPEAKER_01 2:02

Uh, thank you so much. So I have been in the coaching space for quite a few years now. I am an emotional intelligence coach working with women exclusively. Uh, and so where I really focus on is deep emotional healing work for women. I typically work with professional women, uh, women who are trying to balance everything in their life from their career, uh, um, children, and also their relationships. And what I've found most important is helping women get out of their head. So navigating their overthinking, their overwhelm, their anxiety, and learning how to get into their body to regulate their nervous system in a really healthy way. And I do that through teaching and educating on emotional intelligence and self-expression.

SPEAKER_04 2:45

Yes. I remember when I was having a few issues of years back, I had a one-on-one with Jaden and it was a bit of an eye-opener of how I respond and get triggered by certain things. And yeah, sitting with emotions, it can be really difficult. Do you find do you agree, Nat? Like it can be sometimes hard sitting and understanding emotions in your body.

SPEAKER_03 3:06

Oh, absolutely. If you're not used to or comfortable being able to sit with your emotions, it yeah, there can be a lot of of discomfort. How did you end up working with women exclusively as a man? Like I'm fascinated to know.

SPEAKER_01 3:21

Yeah, well, to it's a very long story, but I'll cut it incredibly short. Um, essentially, I I started coaching men uh on mindset. That was the kind of the where I was at at that moment. And I started coaching men on mindset, but then I hit a ceiling with them and with myself, and I couldn't go further. And then I was continuing my training and personal development and coaching, and I learned about emotions, emotional work, trauma release, things like that. And so I shifted all my marketing and all my services around to emotional work for men. I thought, this is it because it did so much work for me. I want to help these men as well. Uh, so I shifted my marketing and that just dropped like a lead balloon. Guys apparently don't like talking about their emotions too much. Um what happened? Like, who'd have thought? What happened was really cool is that a lot of women started reaching out to me asking me to help their husbands, saying, I love what you're doing. I resonate with your work so much. Can you please talk to my husband? He needs this. I would reach out to the husband on the wife's behalf, wouldn't hear anything back, but I'd still be talking to the women. The women would start sharing their challenges, their frustrations, what's going on in their life. And I thought, like, well, like I can help with that. I'm I'm trained, I know how to do this. Would you like to jump on a call? And so before I knew it, all my clients were women. And I'm like, this is my space. This connects with me on a much deeper level. I'm able to communicate like in a way that's really expressive and integrated in what I'm doing. It makes way more sense to me, and I'm not hitting the proverbial brick wall that I was finding myself um hitting with so many uh male clients at that time.

SPEAKER_04 4:54

That's so great. I love that. How organic. And so you've been speaking to women for a while. What sort of are the big patterns that you're seeing again and again in women? Like, are you noticing the same sort of like patterns that they're doing in relationships?

SPEAKER_01 5:10

Yeah, in relationships, it it definitely boils down to a few things. So a lot of women don't feel like they're worthy of support. That's a massive one. Um, they feel like if they're asking for support that they're failing in some capacity, like they should be able to do it all. They should be able to keep it together. And that this really boils down to um the the insidious nature and and the the large amount of shame that a lot of women carry. Right. And and that that not knowing how to get out of shame spirals is a really, really big deal. And it holds them back so much in relationships. They don't know how to speak their voice, they don't know how to express their needs. And so there's a lot of weight and burden that they're carrying upon themselves and they don't know how to release it. And so they end up becoming a pressure cooker of overwhelm, stress, and anxiety. And then that starts leaking out in ways that they don't want, right? They start snapping at the kids, uh, they don't want their partner to touch them. They're, you know, maybe aggravated at their partner or they're overwhelmed at work, and they feel like their body and their emotions are betraying them and they've become a version of themselves they never wanted to be. And so there's a lot of shame that they need to work through here. And so that's a big part of what I help is how do we understand the shame? Where's it coming from? Where are these leaks? How can we sort it out? How can we systematically unpack them one by one and understand what's actually going on with you so that we can help you instead of just like addressing uh addressing the anxiety, like the the symptoms, because otherwise we're just playing whack-a-mole, right? We don't want to address the symptoms, we want to address the cause, which I'm sure you both would have really appreciated. Uh, and so that's that's the approach that I take with them.

SPEAKER_04 6:55

And because the it's this podcast is about anxiety. I find anxiety increases when someone feels like they have no voice or no say or no control. And like, as you were saying, it can't like anxiety, it can come out in different ways. So, like feeling powerless. Uh, you're I find for me back in the day, I'm much more express better at expressing myself now. But I would always feel like I was walking on eggshells no matter what I did. Um, I felt like I was responsible for everyone in the house's emotions. So I had to make sure everyone was okay and you know, I had to keep the peace and not upset anyone. And I always overthought everything I was saying because I was worried I would upset people. Um, constantly reading the room as an anxious person, that's what you would do. You'd read the room, and yeah, I just yeah, I it resonates what you're saying that that there's anxiety and not being able to control, but it's not about that, is it?

SPEAKER_01 7:53

Well, we got to really think about where this all comes from originally. And yeah, a lot of women find themselves in a relationship where this is the case. They feel like they don't have a voice, uh, they are anxious, they are hyper-vigilant, they are walking on eggshells. And it's very easy for a lot of women to um to blame their current partner and and and feel as though they're the victim of the circumstances. And I'm not here to say that that's not true in a lot of cases, right? A lot of men are taking advantage of this, and a lot of men are jerks, right? Like absolutely. Um but coming from Jade and Guys. We as men, we need to do better, right? We we definitely need to be able to check ourselves more. Um, but what's what I'm finding more and more and more is that where does this come from? Why are women finding themselves in this position? And when we start peeling back the layers and start looking at childhood and development, we find out something that's clear as day, which is that the environment that the child, a younger version of my client was raised in, was exactly the same, right? Where the child was made to feel responsible for other people's emotions. They became hyper-vigilant because there was chaos, there was inconsistency in the childhood, in the environment, okay, which led the child to become codependent on the family member, right? On a parent, which means essentially that child, you don't have needs because your needs are secondary to your caregivers, because their needs are more important, because if they're angry, if they're upset, if they're volatile, then you're in danger of being rejected, of being in trouble, right? And that sends a shock through our nervous system to say, well, if we're being rejected, then we're not safe because we're on our own. And then we have the potentiality to die if we think about just like pure primal survival instincts.

SPEAKER_04 9:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:45

And so it's important for us when we're in as a child to then go, okay, well, I've got needs, but every time I express those needs, they're seen as a burden, they're too much, right? They're not wanted. Um, but I've got to, so so in so when I have those needs, I'm rejected. So therefore, I need to squash those needs, I need to put them down. And then I need to look at ways that I can be seen as useful or acceptable. And oh, wow, here it is. Every time that I care for mom, every time that I do good and dad praises me, well, that's what is going to bring me connection and safety. So that's what I'm going to start doing. So now instead of looking within and saying, what do I need? It's what do they need in order for me to feel safe. And so this is the conditioning. And so that travels with us throughout our entire life. And then what happens? We end up finding a partner that falls into the same um category. And it's not because we're masochistic, it's it's because we're we're we're finding what's familiar, what what makes sense to us, what was modeled to us. And so the women that I work with can feel as though this is happening to them from their partner. What's really happening is that these clients are maintaining a disposition, a lifestyle, a frame of reference, a belief system, an identity that is conducive with their childhood. And so the whole point is we need to start shifting that belief system, that identity away from I need to take care of everyone else so that I can be taken care of. And instead of, I need to learn to figure out what my needs are, learn how to articulate them, how to express them in a healthy way so that I can become an equal member of the household instead of just subduing myself, holding back, and then trying to, you know, take the breadcrumbs that fall off the side of the table and think that that's love and that's life. That's not, it's nowhere near enough. It's a half-life, and that's what we need to work towards.

SPEAKER_03 11:42

It's so true. When you talk about um, you know, emotional safety, what exactly does that mean?

SPEAKER_01 11:49

So emotional safety, you know, I do a lot of trauma work. And if we uh I know a few of your members, I'm sure uh listeners will be familiar with the work of Dr. Um Gabor Mate. So I love his approach to true trauma. So trauma is not the event. Okay. Trauma is the unprocessed emotion from an event. So when we think of it like that, whatever event happened in our childhood that's gonna arise uh arise uh emotions inside of us, the event is not the thing. The thing is the emotions that rise within us, but then we don't have the safety, the support in order to express those emotions, to release those emotions, to feel them to completion. So what happens is emotions rise inside of our body. But if then we're being told that we're too much, right? Or or we're we're too needy, or you know, we're being too extra or whatever, then we are shamed in having those emotions. And so we have to push them back down. So it's like having that beach ball, we've got to keep pushing it down, pushing it down. And so the emotional safety that we're after is to have someone to be there and validate us to hold us and say what you're feeling is really big. And that's real and it really hurts. And I totally understand where you're coming from. And it's okay to feel that, and you have every right to feel that because it's normal, it's appropriate for you to feel this. And so when we don't have that as kids, we don't feel worthy of having it now. And especially when we're adults, we don't even know what to do with it when it comes up because it will, that beach ball will inevitably pop back up. But then when it's here, we're terrified of it because that is connecting to our memories of, well, last time this happened as a child, I was shamed, I was punished, I was rejected. So now I don't want this thing, even though it's a natural character. Right. And so this is where a lot of our anxieties come from. Now, if we look at our past, our present, and our future, and I'm gonna generalize this, but it's it's it's a really great way to think of it. If our body is always in the present moment, okay, always. We can never not be in the present moment. That means we're always leaving a past behind us, and that means there's always a future ahead of us. But regardless, our body's always in the present. Our mind in the past or the present. Oh, sorry, past to the future, my apologies. Past the future. Past the future is very rarely in the present. And so how do we and why why are we trying to predict the future? Like, what's the purpose? Well, we're trying to predict the future to try and pair us to be able to navigate it, right? So the question is, how are we predicting the future? What data are we using? We're using data from our past. So if the data from our past is tainted with pain, rejection, discipline, you know, all these sorts of really painful experiences, then we're using a bad data set to predict the future. Okay. And so when we're focused so much on surviving the future, that's anxiety. Anxiety is projection into the future where we're trying to keep ourselves safe from it. Okay. But when we're if we're looking into the future, we can plan. And that's a really healthy thing. But when we're projecting into the future, we're worried, we're frightened, that's the anxiety. It's when it's habitual, it's when we can't stop predicting into the future a fearful potential based on the past. Yeah. So this is a hundred percent cycle, the cycle happens, and we don't know how to get out of it, right? Or when we a lot of women feel a lot of shame because they feel like the thoughts in their head just never stop and and they believe every you know ghost that they see around a corner because their mind is predicting what their body and nervous system is used to. So understanding all this is absolutely key to understanding how we can start navigating anxiety or reducing anxiety so that we can start to learn how to become more present.

SPEAKER_04 15:33

See, we talk about anxiety as a messenger. We say often say it's your body talking to you and telling you that it needs something. And are you ignoring that and sitting with that? And I wonder whether, if you're feeling anxious, whether I don't know how you could sort of askew that as your body talking to you because you're have an emotional need that's unmet, perhaps, something from your heart. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:58

Yeah, absolutely. Well, exactly right. And this is you asked a great question to segue into the whole point, right? Right. And like how how I work with my clients and what's the best way to approach this. It's that whenever we are anxious, whenever we are projecting into the future, oh, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna speak up, you know, uh, with my husband uh because I'm afraid he's gonna tell me no, right? Or, you know, I I don't want to um implement this new um this new diet into my lifestyle because it's gonna upset the kids or or whatever it might be, right? This is anxiety projecting into the future. But it's when those thoughts come up, when you have the idea, say, I want to do this, but then the thoughts come up saying, no, don't, those thoughts, when they're there, they are trying to protect you. They're anticipating resistance of some kind. Okay. It's just gonna create emotional discomfort or pain inside of you that you don't want, right? Is trying to protect you. Even if it's doing it in a dysfunctional or disempowering way, it's still trying to protect you. So what we need to think about is that when our mind, our anxiousness is predicting the painful future, it's trying to protect us. And so, where does this protection mechanism come from? Well, we've got to think again uh it's from our past. It's from those moments in which are similar to what we're predicting in the future. That's when they were created, we were conditioned, when we got rejected, when we were told we were too much, etc. That is a little girl inside of you that was uh experiencing a tremendous amount of rejection, pain, right, emotional turmoil of some kind. And she is now looking out for you. And she is saying, I need to help you predict the future. I need to try and protect you. Your anxiety, your, your, your voice in your head, the shame that you experience, it's not this evil entity trying to destroy you. It's actually the echoes or the whispers of a little girl in pain trying to protect you. And so the way I see it, and the way I teach my clients is this isn't something you have to fight. It's not something that you want to run away from. It's not something you want to cut out of you, it's not something you want to reject, it's not something you want to fight against. It's something you need to understand. It's actually a little version of you, a little girl in you, desperate for you to be safe. And so once we flip the script on that and we change the relationship with the voice or with the feeling or with the fear into this is just trying to protect me, I want to learn to understand her more. How do I understand? What's her motivations? Where's she coming from? How can I learn to incorporate her into my life? How can I bring her in? How can I show her love, the love and safety that she never got? How can I be that for her? And what happens here is we start taking our power back and we say, okay, I have free agency within myself. I can lead myself. And when those voices come up, instead of being afraid of them, I can say, Hey, I'm here to listen. I'm here to serve, I'm here to help, I'm here to understand. Let me help you, let me regulate you instead of me being afraid of you. That's the difference.

SPEAKER_04 19:02

Oh, you know, Jaden, you had this similar conversation with me. Jaden had this similar conversation. Remember when we sort of first met that and I was going through a lot, and I reached out to Jaden. Well, Jaden reached out to me, and we had a similar conversation. So for me, I um I'm I've never really been able to sit with emotions, and I've always, what's the word I'm thinking of where you uh over-analyse your emotions so you over-complicate them and you what's it where you you and I do it, you you and I used to do it a lot, Nat, because we talked about this. You start to try and talk your way through emotions rather than sitting in them and feeling them. Um what's the word I'm thinking of? I can't think of the word. I don't know, but ruminate it. I don't know. Yeah, no, where you try and make it something that it's not, you talk yourself through the emotion and in a professional way in your head that oh, I need to get through this. This is fine, this is just this, it's not that. Like you try and make it out something logical, like you're more logical about it. Yeah, there's a word for it. And so anyway, I was telling Jaden about this, and he, yeah, he pretty much had similar words with me back then. And I just started crying. It was like this little girl inside me had been constantly trying to get my attention, all these all these anxious feelings and the shame and everything. And it just kept bubbling up and bubbling up and bubbling up, and I kept trying to talk myself through it in my head, logically, that oh, this this too shall pass. I, you know, I don't need to sit and feel this. This is just a thing. And it got to the point where I couldn't do it anymore, and it just felt so heavy. And being able to, because my hubby love him dearly, but he's not very good with the emotional talking. And so I never felt like I was able to have conversations around how I was feeling. And so being able to express myself, and I don't know why, but for some reason, being able to express myself to a man, I know that sounds ridiculous, but it was like you were able to sort of have an eye into the male perspective. So, you know, I don't know how to explain myself on that one, but being able to uh really sit with it and start crying, like I felt some form, some some form of shame, just even crying. I don't know why, but being able to express myself and release these feelings inside, it was like the little girl inside of me was having a little party and so excited that she had finally been seen and everything sort of shifted. Everything had shifted. And so for me now, like I I do say to my husband, we do speak different languages, but he's learning my language. He understands, he doesn't understand why, but he knows there's a reason that I need it, and so he'll sit with their me and and and listen to things I say, and just being able to speak. speak without him even just saying anything back. Like being heard is such a wonderful feeling. And so now I've sort of made uh women in my life a big priority because I'm able to sit with like Nat and discuss big internal emotions in a comfortable way. Whereas before I would just constantly ignore them. Yeah in a safe way. It just you mart when you started talking then Jade.

SPEAKER_03 22:27

But yeah and you feel safe to be able to do because you've regulated your own body you've ex you've shown your inner child that it actually is safe. Because I did the same sort of work and I was very much um you know I I mean Jane I wish I'd met you 20 years ago when I was going through all of this. I did eventually find someone to help me doing similar sort of work but you are so succinct and so um clear in your messaging and your work that you do. But I was the same like I had um complex post-traumatic stress disorder severe anxiety disorders panic disorder anorexia all the things um and I did all the work and I was like yes yes you know I was you know type A personality like I'm going to get this right and I I'll do anything you ask me to. And I was sitting on the floor one day with my therapist who we were doing inner child work because I knew into you know I knew um at a soul level that that's really what I needed even though 20 years ago it wasn't a big thing yet to do that inner child work. But I just knew I needed her to be healed and heard. But we were sitting on the floor one day we were doing some work and she sat there and she said get out of your head and I said what she said you intellectualize everything. That's the word she said that's your protective mechanism that you've used since you were a toddler you intellectualize so that you're not feeling it.

SPEAKER_01 23:57

You're not dropping down into your heart staying all up in your head and talking about that energy with um I just want to add this in because I mean I would talk about this um Dan you probably see this when um people you know obviously you work with women with anxiety and when you hold emotion in your body it can then manifest into a physical uh manifestation an ailment for me because I intellectualize everything since I was very young I've got a brain aneurysm because of that and I don't wanted to add that in because today is actually my 13th anniversary since my brain surgery so yeah so but do you find that Jaden that that it can manifest that that energy that they're holding and denying themselves is manifesting in physical ailments and symptoms as well yeah absolutely absolutely and you know I I I want to be very clear I'm not in the space of of working on the the physical body in that way um however there has been multiple occasions where I'll have clients tell me that after sorry if you can hear my one year old screaming in the background. It's all right um so multiple times where I'm working with with a woman who who does release a have a huge emotional release of energy uh you know over a session and then they'll tell me that a random ailment starts to dissipate right the pain in their shoulder goes away their neck starts to feel better right these things happen all the time yeah and I'm just like sort of like yeah I was just gonna say releasing the muscles so you're not tense as much anymore because you're not carrying correct it's exactly right it's exactly right it releases hypertension uh and so once once we understand that and how the body works we're releasing energy the everything loosens up and that's that's a really powerful and beautiful thing and just a an awesome secondary game right inside the space which I just love.

SPEAKER_04 26:02

Yeah I was thinking earlier when you were talking about the inner child and the constant you know as you're growing up the way that you're seen to be loved is doing things for other people and learning these patterns and you end up with them as an adult do you find it's more in women because I've heard a lot of people talking about as women like going back to tribal days we were the carers we were the mothers we were the ones that tended to children do you find that even though like I find as a child you you're learning these patterns do you find it's sort of built in women or do you think it's just because these are the the things that we followed as women all these years like is it like a continuing pattern from things that were set like hundreds of years ago or do you think it's yeah yeah it's such an interesting question and thing to explore so um yes and no it's it's not as binary as what a lot of people think right a lot of people just say oh the masculine energy and the feminine energy and this is like the way of the the world and like that's that's not entirely true and it's a it's actually quite a bit disingenuous.

SPEAKER_01 27:09

So the the more we look into things like attachment theory attached as good yeah attached is a great book right so attachment theory or attachment styles in our relationships right there's there's four main ones so there's secure which is the healthy kind of balanced one where you can have a conversation with someone um and you can you know wait to have a conversation you can bring up difficult conversations and you can just chill out right secure is really beautiful. The the main two opposing ones is anxious and disorganized. Anxious is called anxious preoccupied which is where we're focusing more on the future um we have a level of urgency within side of our body and we want to get things done now. Okay that that's anxiousness and that typically is more of the feminine expression okay and this is just because women in general are more neurotic than men okay as in more emotionally volatile don't shoot the messenger right neurotic all right so more more emotionally expressive and so that creates more emotional urgency and so that leans more towards the more anxious side of of experiencing a connection and attachment uh where then men are more logical and rational uh and and less emotionally expressive which is more conducive to dismissive avoidant attachment style which is essentially where they'd rather just give you an answer that works and they don't want to deal with the emotional stuff and so they would they would shut down on that. Now what happens is is that these two attachment styles or expressions or relationships with emotion get exacerbated culturally. Yeah. So it's glorified that men are hard, that don't talk about their emotions, that go out into the you know the shed and do all the hard things and do the traits. And so that is promoted right as being strong and disciplined and stern and stoic that that is the um that is the pinnacle of manhood. Yeah. And that's dysfunctional for sure. Whereas then you look at women and women are celebrated for being overly caring overly nurturing um overly expressive and bearing all the the weight of of the emotional intimacy inside of a relationship. That's another thing it's like you you get the the trophy as a woman if you're the one who sacrifices yourself and gives all right and and and holds up all the emotion. But the more we do that the more right the more we lean into anxiety on that side. And so the thing is being anxious isn't just a female attachment trait and being avoidant isn't just a masculine one. But when you lay it all out more women are anxious and more men are avoidant. So it's not actually completely aligned that there's masculine feminine energies that just like have this binary impact. No there's a lot of men I'm actually I lean more anxious my wife leans more avoidant okay so it's it's not the be all and end all so there can be a lot of switching inside there and there can be a lot of um yeah a lot of overlap and as well it's important to understand that our attachment styles they aren't fixed okay that you can you can move around them and the more that you heal the the more you can heal your anxiety the more you'll just drift into the secure um uh um area of of the attachment spectrum the the more safe you feel in your emotions uh to express and the more safety is created for you the more secure you can go moving down from the avoidant attachment style and so this is really important thing to do and understand and that's what help happens in a healthy relationship so Sammy you were just talking about it you are a very typical anxious attachment and your husband's very typical avoidant attachment he's totally avoidant he is totally right totally avoidant right but what's happening here is you're learning to not flood on him so much to not be ascoming more secure right you're you're you're it's not toning yourself down it's refining yourself right yeah it's becoming more graceful and refined in your delivery now when you do that you're bringing yourself more secure and then you're not emotionally flooding on him his relationship to emotion is that it's dangerous it's scary and every time I used to do it I would be punished right so emotion is scary to him and so when you come up with big emotions outwardly expressed towards him his inner child is going that's too much I'm terrified of this so that's why he shuts down it's not because he's a prick it's because he's surviving yeah and so now that you're learning how to regulate your delivery he feels safer to be more present with you. So he's coming towards you because you've created space for him forward.

SPEAKER_04 31:57

Absolutely it's funny because when I was really and my emotions were just flooding out everywhere and my husband was like I don't know what to do with all this I actually went and seen Nat for some Reiki healing and she's like man you've got like you've got a lot of testosterone like going on here because I had the way I had learned to survive in this relationship was to live sort of in a masculine environment and to block this emotional feeling and it I'd sort of denied myself that feminine side of me and Nat was like man go and buy some flowers and wear a pretty dress and it's yeah it's interesting it's very interesting femininity inspires masculinity and masculinity inspires femininity yeah absolutely do you find like I know this is something I've heard of before but women who deny that feminine side and they push down the emotions that they become less attractive to men because I've seen some women who say that because they're running businesses, they're bringing all the money in, they're doing all the things and their partner's sort of not doing that they their partner starts to feel a bit lost because they haven't dealt with that because they've got this thing in there is it patriarchy where they've got this idea that men should be the ones bringing in the money and the men should be the ones doing all the work and women are sort of creeping into that side as well it's like I think men more are feeling more emasculated aren't they?

SPEAKER_03 33:27

Men are getting lost in this space because women are rising up and they're they they can do everything and they're earning their own money and I'm I'm 57 and I see women in my age bracket uh they might be divorced you know some some of them are widowed and they're going you know what I don't want a man I you know I can earn my own money I own my own house I go on my own holidays but it's finding that men are pulling away because they're feeling lost because they're feeling emasculated.

SPEAKER_04 33:59

Is that do you see that?

SPEAKER_01 34:00

You brought a post about something like this the other day I saw you commented yeah so so yes it it there's there's a bit more refinement in that which which I find so because I work with a lot of professional women um and you know I I work privately um with a lot of you know women in real estate um women who are in in law um in finance things like that and there can be hypermasculine sort of uh areas and what I find with a lot of these women when we start boiling it down is that they're only in this industry right and I've seen this time and time again they're only in this industry because it it would when we peel it all back because it was going to please their father of some kind or they had something to prove. Wow they didn't necessarily right and they didn't necessarily actually want to be in that industry and that they they started to resent it because they were denying their natural self. Now this doesn't always happen but it's very very very common. Okay. And so what happens is a lot of these women who become ultra independent and ultra empowered which is an awesome thing we want that but then they're realizing that there's this huge sacrifice that they're making of this this kind of like biological desire to be held and served and nurtured and protected in the arms of a man who can actually hold them. And so it's almost like they've painted themselves into a corner that when they go and start dating there's no man masculine enough and capable enough to handle them because they're they're top dog, right? And so this this kind of emasculation of men, what's happening here is that men uh love to be able to provide and to serve. That's a part of our nature to feel useful. If we can provide and serve then we feel useful we feel like we have purpose. And if we don't have that if we look at a potential partner and say well she doesn't need anything from me I can't give her anything then I don't feel useful in this relationship. And it's not it's not it's not because like well screw women like I I don't have power over her it it it's not all that. Yes it can be that from some misogynistic men for sure but it's it's actually more of an emotional thing that men just don't know how to understand articulate or express. But that's typically what's come what it's coming down to is I've got nothing to give her so therefore I'm not worthy. Like how can I fulfill my purpose with her? And so they want to find someone who is more um uh susceptible to to being uh protected and nurtured and taken care of inside of the relationship so the woman will feel more nurtured and that works and then the man feels like he has a purpose because he gets to provide yeah and so the the kind of the the the beautiful harmony comes together and it works well. Now is this the dynamic forever relationship no does it always work no sometimes the woman is the breadwinner and the man stays at home that's great right everyone's allowed to have their different thing right because it's not as I said that binary masculine female thing that just works. There's crossover everywhere but the generalization the majority of it is going to boil down to that right is that men need to have uh meaning in their relationship. They need to fulfill a purpose and if they can't do that they're gonna find someone who will allow them to fulfill that purpose inside the relationship. And it's not because they're misogynistic it's not because they want dominance and power or they want someone to be dependent on them. It's because they want to feel complete.

SPEAKER_04 37:29

My husband's often said that like I remember we were going around uh we were at the fire pit and we were saying name one say one word that describes you as a person and his word was father he that's his thing and he feels like his purpose is to to provide and look after me and the boys and his mom and you know it gives him this feeling of completeness being able to do that for me. I mean he has all his little hobbies and things as well but I feel like if I took that away from him I think I feel like he'd be somewhat lost in his purpose for for what and I I wonder how many men go through that. And I mean I'm a mum of boys but I sometimes wonder like I know that my younger said to me I took him to see the Barbie movie. I didn't know what it was about. I this was a long time ago when it came out and he started asking questions about um all these things and women's suffrage and I'm explaining these things to him in the best terms that I could and he said to me he's noticed it's probably changed a little bit so in schools the girls can be quite overbearing and overpowering that the boys feel a little bit scared to talk to them. And I'm wondering whether we've put so much empowerment in women that whether we're missing the message for boys and how do we create emotional healthy adults without making either side of them villains if that makes sense yeah absolutely and you know we could spend another three hours going into sorry about that I'm just you know I'm a boy mum like what are they teaching my boys like because they're too afraid to ask a girl out you can't hit on a woman at work anymore. You like how do you pick up a woman now because you're considered a rude prick no matter what you do I actually feel sorry for some guys.

SPEAKER_01 39:16

I truly do yeah well third third wave feminism has really come in and destroyed this and and you know I I call myself a feminist but you know I look at feminists and I find them abhorrent I I really really do because a lot of it becomes just man hating and uh misandry and it's it's not healthy right like when when has it ever worked that punishing an entire collection of people um for something that they haven't done is ever going to work right like like like why why should I be yelled at and punished for something that I haven't done? How's that gonna make me feel good? Yeah and I'm I'm not here to say that patriarchy hasn't been there that men sorry women haven't been horribly treated over over you know all of human history because they have absolutely the pendulum was horribly one-sided but now this overcorrection back the other way is not working either. It's not working either and so many women have a massive on their shoulders right and then a lot of men are wanting to kind of suck up to that and they're just completely destroying and abandoning all their their healthy masculine in order to appease women and it's creating a lot of soft weak pathetic loser men in my opinion it's really disappointing.

SPEAKER_04 40:35

I know it is absolutely it's I was just gonna say Nigel was like driving home a few months ago and he said there was a woman on the side of the road and on her own and he's like the natural instinct for me as a man is to stop and help her and he said but there's also this part of me now that's like what if they're setting me up what if something's happening like what if I'm endangering myself like you just don't know what young women like majority of them let's hope that they've got good hearts but sometimes they're it's not a good outcome.

SPEAKER_01 41:06

Yeah it can be really really tough as a guy these days because like like you were saying before um if a guy wants to try and hit on a on a woman it's it's either um you know it's either some sort form of kind of sexual abuse or it's allowed because it's wanted so it's it's like if it if it's wanted it's okay. If it's not wanted it's it's abuse.

SPEAKER_03 41:27

Yeah I know I know how does how does that work right it can be really really confusing for for for boys mixed messages yeah totally mixed messages but even so even outside of um relationships just common gallantry do we even use that word anymore you know like I love a man opening a door for me you know a complete stranger as I'm walking through I find it so sad because I always look look at them and and smile and say thank you.

SPEAKER_01 42:00

The look of surprise on so many men's faces because I haven't turned around and abused them and said I can do that myself you know just like I got yelled at by a blind woman the other day because I was trying to help her I can do it myself I'm like oh my gosh so yeah sorry off yeah I think we need to we need to actively work on bringing bringing it all back uh to to be really healthy and that that'll just take time it'll it'll take time but it takes conversations like this and it and it's gonna take brave men to step up and say hey no like that's that's not okay that's not okay to be treating us like this. Just because it happened my my grandparents did it to your grandparents doesn't mean it's okay for you to do it to me. But at the same time there is a lot of work that men need to do in order to wash their hands clean of the dysfunction that masculinity can bring right hypermasculinity is just as dysfunctional okay yeah really healthy integrated masculinity comes with a lot of balance of femininity you just think of the yin and the yang okay we need to have that integration we need to have the balance the harmony and I see this time and time again especially um and I know we're kind of pulling on a on a thread that's off off main topic but um I see a lot of a a lot of women who are single mums raising boys and when you look at all the statistics all the data okay especially like all the stuff that comes out from the US it's that the more boys being raised by women the more dysfunctional these boys are because they don't have healthy masculine influence right when you look husband says that right it's like they need a dad right 90 plus percent of teachers are women right um you look at uh our families let's let's say don't quote me on the exact statistics something like 60 70% of of boys are being raised by single Single mums, etc. And so you look at all of the access that men that boys have to um uh uh grown-ups in their life, and it's women, women, women, women, women, women, and then these guys are being raised thinking, well, I have no way to harness my natural masculinity, I don't know what to do with it, no one's refining it, no one's keeping it in check. So I'll turn into a belligerent asshole. Okay. Yeah. Like, oh no, we can feminize the masculinity out of men. That doesn't work. It really, really doesn't work.

SPEAKER_04 44:30

No, it doesn't.

SPEAKER_01 44:31

Right? Yeah, and so it's it's causing this massive blowback, which a lot of women aren't realizing or knowing how to take ownership of. And so, you know, this this is something that a lot of women really need to check themselves on and appreciate that masculinity is healthy, it is important, and it needs to be refined by a healthy woman as well. Okay. Men don't know how to be feminine, but women know how to be feminine, and women need to help teach men how to be more feminine, how to be more softer, how to be more nurturing. But if a lot of women are subservant and sit back and say, oh, the man's allowed to be a man and do everything that a man does and let him turn into a dysfunctional prick inside the relationship, then what's gonna happen is she's gonna sit back and be quiet and build up resentment because she hasn't expressed her needs, she hasn't expressed her boundaries, she hasn't articulated what's going on, and then she's gonna sit back and blame the man. Well, the man's just been going off doing his thing, unchecked, unchallenged, right? What we actually want to do is promote women stepping up and going, hey, babe, this is how I want to be talked to. This is how I'd like to be kissed, this is how I'd like to be touched, this is how I'd like to be taken care of, this is how I'd like our relationship to be. Instead of, oh, well, he might raise his voice, so I'm gonna timidly sit back. No, no, women have got to have more confidence to step up and step forward and build a healthier relationship. While at the same time, men need to pull their head in and learn how to soften up, okay, and stop this unrefined, aggressive crap. But this comes from a lack of men leading boys. Men aren't leading boys. So there's another book uh co-written by Gabor Mate, um, hold on to your kids. And it talks about parental attachment or pure attachment. Okay. So nice and simple. When you're a child, you're supposed to be attached to your parents, both your mom and your dad. You're supposed to be taught how to be feminine, you're supposed to be taught how to be masculine and how to refine that in a healthy way. What happens is when parents disconnect from their kids when they're uh treating them poorly, where they're not engaged in their in their upbringing and things like that. Our children will disconnect, will detach from their parents, and then they'll attach to their peers, their friends. So then you've got a boy attaching to their best friend who's also a boy, and then mum and dad's opinions don't matter because my friend Timmy is way cooler than mum and dad.

SPEAKER_04 46:55

And so then what's happening getting there?

SPEAKER_01 46:58

It's boys raising boys.

SPEAKER_04 47:00

Yeah, it's so true.

SPEAKER_01 47:02

There's no masculine guidance and there's no healthy guidance.

SPEAKER_04 47:05

That's what Nigel was saying the other day. He was saying, gone is the day. I'm just being mindful of the time. Gone is the day where you had the pub after work. Like it was a normal thing. Like he's saying when he was younger, you would go to the pub after work with all your mates, and you'd have a drink, and it would loosen the tongue, and you'd talk about all the problems in your business, you talk about your home life, and then you'd go home. He's like, Yeah, okay, people might have thought that was a bit, you know, oh, my man go to the pub after work. But he's like, that was a way for men to come like to bond and talk. And he's like, years ago, the younger kids would often go and hang out as well. Like you'd have your uncles and all of the men would get together. I mean, they've got men's sheds now, but men don't just ring each other up and go, I'm having a bad day, I need to talk about it. But where if they're at a pub and they have a drink, they can start talking about, oh, you know, John O did such and such today, and it really pissed me up. Like they're able to express themselves. That's gone. It's like it's out of it's it's not a thing these days.

SPEAKER_01 48:05

Or just being shamed away.

SPEAKER_04 48:06

Yeah. And I feel like as much as yeah, there was the negative side to that as well, but I think there was a lot of positive that used to come out of having those spaces as well. Um, but anyway, this podcast is all about anxiety, and I just hang on, just I just want to sorry, can I just interrupt?

SPEAKER_03 48:26

With I just I just want to finish up what we were just talking about because there are a lot of women out there that do not have a male partner and they may not have other men in their life. So, what do they do with their sons to where where do they go to find that that healthy role model for their boys? If they don't have anyone in their immediate circle, what do they do with I tell you?

SPEAKER_01 48:52

My boys have got clients come to the book. Get your boys into sports because there's going to be some sort of coach or trainer of some kind that's going to show them discipline, masculine uh encouragement and and support in that way. Sports.

SPEAKER_04 49:04

My boys have got uh their master sifu. So they've been going since they were five, six years old, and they're like 15 now. So it's like having another dad in their life. And so if I was a single mom, they would definitely talk to him because they're comfortable with him and they see him three or four times a week. So yeah, agree, totally agree. Yeah. Great. Yes, yes. So being the anxiety compass, this sort of this episode sort of points more towards the emotional side. So holding on to those emotions, not being able to speak up. Uh Jaden was saying that he works a lot with women. He's not downplaying men, as you can see. He's, you know, helping to empower women so they can have those conversations and express themselves and and and give advice in that area. And yeah, I think it's definitely needed. Uh, you can't sort of tell a man to go and and get counseling and do all those things, but you can definitely work on yourself to be able to express your needs a lot more. Uh, and yeah, uh, I wanted to do so. What we want to do is sort of like a rapid fire with so a few questions, Jaden. I know it's hard for you to give just quick answers, but you know, it's been really much context that needs to go into it though, seven years. I know, I know. I've I've gone on podcasts, I've been interviewed, and they it's like a 20-minute interview, and I'm like, how am I gonna fit this in? It's not gonna happen. It's too much information. Nat, do you want to ask a question and then I ask a question, or do you want me to ask a question? I'll go first. Yeah, okay. What is the biggest relationship myth?

SPEAKER_00 50:38

Well, that's a bloody big question. Biggest relationship myth is that we're equal.

SPEAKER_04 50:44

Ah, I want to know more. I can't go into it.

SPEAKER_03 50:50

No, okay. Next one. Biggest green flag.

SPEAKER_01 50:55

Willingness to learn.

SPEAKER_03 50:59

I love it.

SPEAKER_04 51:00

The biggest red flag that people ignore.

SPEAKER_01 51:05

Defensive, uh defending staying where you are.

SPEAKER_04 51:09

Oh, that one hit. I I see a lot of women that do that. I let yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:16

Like justifying your current situation. Yeah, that's horrible.

SPEAKER_04 51:20

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You'd see, yeah, I reckon you'd hear that a lot doing what you do.

SPEAKER_03 51:24

Yeah, okay. And last one, one thing women can do, can start doing today to feel more empowered.

SPEAKER_01 51:31

Gonna give you two things. Read books that help you understand yourself and not just um affirm your beliefs. So read books that challenge you, definitely. And the second thing is connect with other women.

SPEAKER_04 51:48

Uh I've done both of those. I think connecting with other women was the biggest one for me. I'm gonna throw in just one final question and I want to see how you answer this one. This one uh came up and I thought, ooh, that's a that's an interesting question. What is the difference between compromise and self-abandonment?

SPEAKER_01 52:10

Compromise is uh win-win. Self-abandonment is I lose you in the back.

SPEAKER_04 52:19

Yeah. Yeah, that's true. I mean, I it's very, very straightforward. Uh so Jaden, it's been really great having you on today. Thank you for coming on. If people would love to follow you, hear you, see you, because I absolutely love watching the content that you put up and I love some of the fiery questions you ask, polarizing questions. And I like get my popcorn down to the comments. Yes. Um, and I love it. And sometimes I'm like, should I buy something? No, because then I'm gonna have to deal with replying to everyone. I don't have time for that in my life. Um, how can people come and take a sticky beak and even work with you?

SPEAKER_01 52:54

Yeah, so um I I'm I'm just mainly mainly here on on Facebook. I'm I'm everywhere else, but don't look at those accounts because I haven't dealt with them. Um so Jaden Lee Hargraves is my my full name, Jaden Lee Hargraves. Uh, and my now YouTube channel is Jaden Lee. Uh so that's L-E-I-G-H. Yeah, go go subscribe. Uh and yeah, I'm I'm very active on on Facebook and I'm I'm launching my YouTube channel. Uh and uh yeah, I have uh multiple and sundry of different uh programs, uh both group programs and coaching programs one-on-one as well to um to support women.

SPEAKER_04 53:29

And when is the book coming out?

SPEAKER_00 53:32

That's that that scratch coming.

SPEAKER_04 53:39

Amazing. Thanks so much for coming on. Sometimes anxiety isn't asking us to become something, someone different. Sometimes it's inviting us to reconnect with who we were before we started abandoning ourselves. So stop abandoning yourselves, lady, and start listening to that little inner child inside and uh getting you know your voice out there. We will see you in the next episode. Thanks for coming on, Jaden. And bye, Nan. Bye, Sammy.