Somatic Healing for Wellness-Focused Women

(#107) Sleep Anxiety, Insomnia, Overthinking & Nervous System Rest with Guest Speaker Jessica Fink

• Rae The Somatic Coach • Episode 107

Share episode

Can’t fall asleep... or stay asleep? This episode is a must-listen if your nights feel restless and your mind won’t shut off.

In this powerful guest interview, Rae speaks with Jessica Fink, LCSW-S, a Texas-based CBT-I therapist who specializes in treating insomnia, sleep anxiety, PTSD, OCD, chronic pain, and over-control. Together, they explore how trying too hard to sleep may actually be what’s keeping you awake and what to do instead.

Inside this episode:

  • The difference between being tired vs. being sleepy
  • Why sleep anxiety and overthinking hijack your nervous system at night
  • What “sleep effort” is and why it’s sabotaging your rest
  • Somatic tools + mindset shifts to reduce nighttime tension and reclaim your rest
  • What to do during a sleepless night that actually helps (and what to avoid)

Whether you're a high-achieving perfectionist, a chronic overthinker, or just someone curious about better sleep hygiene, this episode offers practical, non-medication-based tools for lasting change.

💤 Stay Connected with Jessica on Youtube, LinkedIn, Pinterest, or in her Monthly Newsletter

🧘‍♀️ Free Breathwork & Meditation Resource Library – access when you join the monthly newsletter

✍️ Want more reflection prompts? Sign up for Rae’s newsletter to receive monthly somatic tools, writing prompts, and updates

🎧 Save this episode to revisit before your next sleepless night, and be sure to share it with a friend who needs some gentle, grounded support around sleep.

CONNECT
 Work With Me
The Somatic Healing Newsletter
Instagram
Website
Subscribe & Review Apple Podcasts
Follow & Rate Spotify

Disclaimer: Please remember that the information shared on this podcast is intended to inspire, educate, and support you on your personal journey. It does not substitute for professional mental health advice. I am not a psychologist or medical professional. If you are experiencing distress, mental health challenges, or medical conditions, please seek help from a qualified professional.

SPEAKER_01:

Welcome back to the podcast. If you are new here, I'm Ray. I'm a somatic coach and breath work facilitator. And if you aren't new here, welcome back. I'm so glad that you're tuning into today's episode. So for today's episode, we have our next guest speaker, and I'm so excited to dive into the topic of sleep and so many other things, but I will introduce her now. So we are going to be speaking with Jessica Fink. LSCWS is a Texas-based therapist who specializes in sleep issues, PTSD, OCD, chronic pain, and maladaptive overcontrol. As a CBT-oriented provider, Jessica uses structured, data-driven approaches combined with flexibility and creativity to create real lasting change. Jessica values client independence, designing therapy to equip individuals with their own tools and coping strategies. Jessica's practice is entirely online and accessible to all Texas residents. Amazing. So if you are in Texas, definitely can work with Jessica, which is exciting. So yeah, Jessica, thank you so much for just coming on the podcast today, talking to us about sleep and all the other things. I'm excited to dive in. But yeah, can you just kind of tell us a little bit about yourself, maybe just how you're doing today, um and how you got into this field of work?

SPEAKER_00:

Sure. Um, so yeah, happy to be here. Thanks for having me. Let's see. I I have have started uh calling myself a therapist for anxious rule followers with a death grip on life. And we'll talk about how it kind of like threads through all of my specialties, definitely uh applies to sleep. A lot of like we'll talk about how a lot of people that are struggling to sleep are actually trying too hard, and that's a lot of the problem. Um, but I didn't really set out to be a sleep specialist initially. I've been a social worker for 17 years. Can I do math? 2007. So 18? Maybe it's 18. Anyways, 2007 is when I got started, started in the field, uh, been in mental health the whole time. Um, but again, didn't really start out as a sleep person. I worked as just kind of like general adult mental health at a psychiatric hospital in Austin, Texas, did that for many, many years. And then 2021 is when I started my private practice. And um, I got a flyer in the mail advertising uh this training for something called cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia. And I was like, oh, that's a thing. Like um, I'd always seen people with sleep issues because if you work with people who are depressed, who are anxious, who have trauma, et cetera. So they a lot of them have sleep issues. And I always just thought that it's medical and you need to go see a doctor and you need medication. And I knew there was like some, you know, sleep hygiene stuff we could do, but I didn't think there was much I could do to really treat insomnia. So I went and checked out the training, and I was like, wow, this is it was a good training. I was like, this is really cool. So I just started kind of putting it out to the community, like, hey, I I treat insomnia, I treat other sleep issues, and it's kind of it's become like the bulk of my practice. It's not all that I do, but it's more than it's like 60%, I'd say, of my practice is people with sleep issues. And CBTI is magical. Um, it is like a few sessions, you make a few changes. They're simple, they're not easy, but um it it like people turn, you see things turn around very quickly. Um, it doesn't it doesn't take a whole lot of time. And so I've just kind of dug into that more, learning more about sleep and expanding to work with other sleep disorders. Um, but yeah, that's that's kind of how I ended up, how I ended up here.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Oh, that's incredible. Yeah, it's funny how that happens. You start start with one thing and then you follow the flyer and do the thing and get interested in it. And then, you know, when it when it clicks, it clicks. And I also have my uh background in social work, so that's funny. Um yeah, so when people are coming to you with uh, you know, challenges sleeping, like what are you seeing? Like, how is it affecting their well-being when they're like coming to you and they're like, I need help, I want to do some CBTI.

SPEAKER_00:

So people who are, I like to make the distinction between how good sleepers think about sleep and how people with insomnia think about sleep. Uh, good sleepers don't think about sleep. Uh, people with insomnia, they think about it all the time. So it is consuming their day. It is, they think about it all the time. They are constantly worried about it. They are working so hard to get sleep. Um, and a lot of people with insomnia are, if they're married or if they're in a romantic relationship, their partner is often a good sleeper themselves. And so their frame of reference is this person who falls asleep easily, has no problem. So there's a lot of like resenting their spouse. There's a lot of it just consumes their day. And then the other struggle is that people just they know they're not operating at 100%. They know they're not functioning the way they want to be functioning. They're having trouble concentrating, they're forgetting stuff, they're they're worried they're gonna mess something up. And then as bedtime creeps closer, they start to get more and more and more anxious, which then of course gets in the way of sleeping. And then they're not sleeping. So now they're anxious because they're not sleeping, which makes them more anxious, which makes them not sleep, and and and so on and so on and so on. Um, so it really does like if you're not sleeping, it can consume your life, it can consume your whole day. It's all you think about, and you're not doing it, but it is all you think about.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, you know, I love that distinction that you make because it is so true. If you, yeah, like if you are a good sleeper, you don't you don't think about it, but if you're not, you're going to be so consumed by it. And I I mean, I really think you're just like nailing it right on the head. And what what would be like the difference between maybe someone that is just like super tired or fatigued, or someone that's like, I haven't slept, I like have insomnia, or like what is that that difference? Or they kind of like overlap, like yeah, like at what point?

SPEAKER_00:

Like, I think that's like like it's a good question. Like, at what point, at what point do we call it insomnia? At what point is it a problem? Because everybody has bad nights, even even very good sleepers, they have bad nights. They're gonna have a bad night here, bad night there. Um, that's normal. It's normal if you're going through a stressful time in your life that maybe that's gonna disrupt your sleep. That's pretty normal. Um, but there are actually parameters for when we call it insomnia. And so insomnia is difficulty initiating or maintaining sleep. It could be either or it could be both. We tend to use 30 minutes as the cutoff. That's not in like the diagnostic criteria, but most of us in the sleep field will say 30 minutes. If it's taking you longer than 30 minutes to fall asleep, if you're spending more than 30 minutes awake over the course of the night, if you're waking up too early by more than 30 minutes, that's when we start calling it insomnia. And then also we're looking for it to be at least two nights a week for at least three months. So that's when it's become chronic. It's become its own problem. And then the rest of it is that the person is either really stressed out about it, they're really worried, they're really frustrated, like kind of like earlier. I said it's just it's consuming all of their thoughts and then all of their day. Or again, they just feel like they're not functioning as well as they'd like to during the day because of the insomnia. So it's kind of like all of those things added up together. That's when we start calling it insomnia. And it becomes its own problem. So people will have, again, people will have trouble sleeping because they're going through a stressful event or a life transition or even a positive one, like getting married, having a baby, getting a promotion, like even something like that can disrupt your sleep. But at some point, like there are some people that the stressor resolves and they go back to normal sleep and everything's okay. And then there are other people that the stressor resolves, but the sleep problem lingers. And now they're just it used to be, I'm not sleeping because I'm stressed out. And then now it's like I'm just not sleeping, and the fact that I'm not sleeping, that's become the stressor. And so that's how we kind of distinguish between um just you know, trouble sleeping, which everyone has from time to time, and actual like clinical insomnia disorder. Um, and I'll talk a little bit about just like fatigue. Um, there's a difference between being tired and being sleepy. And sleepy means high likelihood that you're gonna fall asleep. Sleepy is like your eyelids are heavy, your head is nodding forward, like you're you're literally about to fall asleep. Tired is a little different. Tired, like tired, fatigued, dragon. Um, you can be tired without being sleepy. And so, fatigue, sometimes people will think, oh, I'm fatigued, I must not be getting enough sleep. There must be a problem with their sleep. And it's possible, but there's also like a thousand and one other reasons that somebody might be fatigued. And so people with insomnia will tend to be like, I'm fatigued, this is a problem, I'm not getting enough sleep, I have to fix it. And we actually will talk about here's all the other, you could be dehydrated, you could be getting sick, you could be, there's like a thousand, you could be bored. There's like a million different reasons that somebody might be fatigued that don't have anything to do with their sleep.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, you know, everything that you shared makes so much sense, and it it's it's so helpful as well. And like I can even speak from I'm just thinking right now, I have an early flight tomorrow. It's like an 8 a.m. flight. So I have to schedule my Uber, I don't know, maybe like 5:30 or something. I know that I'm not going to sleep well tonight because I'm gonna be so nervous about oversleeping my alarm. Um, just because it's like early flight. So the distinction is just really helpful. And um, maybe we'll we'll get into some tools and stuff that people can use in a little bit. But um, I'm curious, is there like a sweet spot for like how much sleep people are supposed to get? Is it unique for everybody? Do you kind of figure out as you go? You know, everyone has you see on like social media like seven to nine hours. Is that true? Like, what are your thoughts?

SPEAKER_00:

Yes. Um, so we all have we all have a sleep need. We don't all have an eight-hour sleep need. So if you could like plot it on like a like a bell curve of how much sleep people need, the fattest part of it is gonna be seven to nine hours. Like most likely your sleep need is somewhere between seven to nine. There's a few that's less than seven, there's a few that's more than nine. That's not that many people. Um, and it really just it's like it's kind of vague. It's like the amount of sleep that allows your body to feel good. Where I see that cause problems for people is people will get super rigid on eight hours. They're like it has to be eight hours. Um, they may not be an eight-hour sleeper. They might be a seven-hour sleeper, a seven and a half and a half hour sleeper. And sleep is homeostatic. So if you oversleep your need, it's kind of the way that I had it explained to me is it's kind of like you have to pay it back to the bank. It's like overdrawing your account. So if you are a seven-hour sleeper and you sleep for eight hours, you may notice the next night that you don't sleep as well because you slept too much and your body's sort of like recalibrating because you you oh you get you oversleep, you're over you overdrew your account, and now you're making me laugh because that literally was me.

SPEAKER_01:

That literally was me last weekend. You're making me laugh. I had like the longest sleep, the what I thought was like the best sleep. And then, you know, I slept in, let's just say nine hours, and then the following night, I was like, I don't think I like spent enough of my energy. So I was like kind of like wired. I was like, I I'm ready to go. And it's like, yeah, I don't think I fell asleep until like 3:30 or something. Um, but keep going, and I mean to cut you up, but you're you're speaking to me right now.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, you might no, you might have over overslept your need. And we we know that not not getting enough sleep is a problem, but it's also a problem to to to oversleep. It's it's like you know, it's like what when you eat more than you eat too much food, and then you're like uncomfortably full, and you're like, I never want to see food ever again, I never want to think about food, and like that feeling passes, but it's kind of the same, it's kind of the same idea. And so I spend a lot of time telling people, um, you might not be an eight-hour sleeper because somehow people have gotten it in their heads that everybody needs eight hours. And that's not you probably need somewhere between seven to nine, but it just it kind of takes some doing just to notice like what allows you to feel good during the day and consistently, so where you're not getting that ping-pong where it's like too much and not enough and that kind of thing.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, that makes a that makes a lot of sense. So really, yeah, like tuning into what you need, finding what that range might be, and that makes a yeah, that makes a lot of sense. If you sleep longer, that the next day you're gonna have more energy might might not have the best night's sleep. Um if someone were to be having like a restless night, so maybe they're uh struggling to either fall asleep or they're waking up in the middle of the night a bunch. What do you think might be some tips or tools that they could use to fall asleep or fall back to sleep? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. I think the the most important thing is to not is to not panic. Um people sometimes people will start panicking, and that is only gonna make it worse. The other really a lot of the work that I do with people is like trying to give up the effort. So trying not to get into this cycle of because as soon as you realize you're not sleeping and then you start trying really hard to sleep, you're never now you're not never gonna fall asleep. Like to fall asleep, you have to disengage, you have to like kind of float away and drift away. And we gotta like take energy out of the system, so to speak. And so as soon as you start paying attention to anything, um, you're you're you're not gonna fall asleep. And so the most it's that that's like the first thing I tell people is try not to panic. Um everybody has bad nights, bad nights are normal. Um, there's a lot of kind of work that I'll do around um people will catastrophize about the next day. People are like, I'm gonna crash my car because I didn't get enough sleep. I'm gonna screw up something really important at work, I'm gonna, you know, some other really catastrophic thing. Um, and so trying to trying to reframe that, like one of the questions I'll ask people is when you're laying in bed and you're thinking, okay, if I don't get enough sleep, I'm going to like I'm gonna crash my car because I didn't get enough sleep and I'm gonna fall asleep at the wheel. I'll say, you know, how likely does it feel? You're laying in bed, it's three in the morning, you can't fall asleep. How likely? They're like, oh, it feels, I don't know, 50% likely. Okay, cool. So then we'll actually do this thing where we calculate how long they've had insomnia, like how many nights, and then how many times they think they've driven their car and come up with this like percentage. And let's just, I don't know, let's just say they've driven their car 900 times over the course of having insomnia. So then I'll say, okay, so tell me about the 450 car accidents that you've gotten into, because it's 50%, and they're like, Well, I haven't gotten into that that many. I'm like, yeah, because when you're trying to fall asleep at nighttime, humans are like we're we are stupider at at night. Like we we are. We we think that the frontal, like the frontal cortex, like the executive function parts of the brain are mostly offline at night. And so when it's nighttime, you've got your instincts, you've got your emotions, you don't really have a lot of logic. So all those horrible consequences feel so true and they feel so realistic. And really what's going on is that you just you don't have your whole brain, you don't have that part of your brain that swoops in and is like, okay, what's the actual likelihood of this? Like what's actually going on here? So kind of like this for perspective shift. And then another thing that people can do, another like suggestion that's given is, and people have maybe heard this, is to if it's not working, if you're not falling asleep, get out of bed, just get out of bed, go do something else. Um, and don't go back to bed until you feel sleepy. So you can so what we're what you're doing there is you're you're giving up the effort. Because once you start getting into this cycle of sleep effort, like we're it's it's off the rails, like it's not gonna work. Sleep does not reward effort. So you give up the effort, you get out of bed, you go somewhere else, and you do basically whatever you want. Um, we used to say do something boring, like people have maybe heard, oh, do something boring, do something that's not too stimulating. We've started to shift, at least I've started to shift in my guidance on that, because I think if you're really fixated on, I have to do just the right thing or it's gonna wake me up. Now you're so anxious about picking the right thing to do, and that's messing you up. And and again, what we're trying to do is like take the anxiety out of the system. Um, so I'll say, do whatever you want, do whatever you want, do something fun, don't worry about if it's gonna wake you up. Don't go back to bed until you feel sleepy. And and until you feel sleepy, don't go back to bed too soon. Sometimes we are sacrificing a night here, a night there. Um, if you sleep crappy tonight, it's more likely that you're gonna sleep better the next night because sleep, sleep is homeostatic. So if you go without it, your body's gonna sort of start to start to crave it more. And so that's another just kind of like tact, you know, or tactile is not the right, like tactical thing that that people can do is to get out of bed, go do something else, don't go back to bed until you feel sleepy. People will start being worried about well, if I don't get enough sleep, something bad is gonna happen. So we can actually kind of walk through um, you know, what what are you worried about? It helps to. Ask people how many times they've had a bad night's sleep, but they still did okay the next day, or to ask people if they've ever had a good night's sleep and still had a crappy day anyway. So trying to decouple this idea that, oh, if I sleep bad, my day is going to be bad. But if I sleep good, my day is going to be good. Well, it's not like a perfect one-to-one. Um, so it's kind of both. It's kind of trying to really tackle that anxiety and that making mistakes really high, and then giving up the effort and letting sleep come find you when it's ready.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I really love that. It's it feels like when there's so much resistance around something, like there's so much tension around something, it's like that that inner like fight, it's so quiet, but it's what's happening. And so by releasing that effort, you're letting like the the tension dissolve, and then everything can just fall into place.

SPEAKER_00:

Right.

SPEAKER_01:

And that feels that feels really nice. Yes. Um, yeah. Would you say that, and I don't know if this goes this works with like the effort part, but would you say that there's anything, you know, maybe like diet-wise or day-wise, or kind of like do's and don'ts of like my the first thing that comes to mind for me is like having caffeine too late in the day, like things like that, that maybe would be helpful or harmful for sleep. Sure.

SPEAKER_00:

Um, so kind of just kind of thinking about like like good sleep hygiene, I think is kind of what you're uh maybe kind of what you're getting at. And I think of sleep hygiene kind of like brushing and flossing your teeth. So it's like good to do it. Everybody should be doing it. It's good preventive care. Um, I will say if you have like chronic insomnia, sleep hygiene alone is not likely, is not likely to fix it. Like this somebody with chronic insomnia is gonna need more, like CBT for like CBT for insomnia. They're gonna need more than sleep hygiene. But sleep hygiene is a is a piece of CBTI. And so it's really about this idea of how to make your daytime habits and your bedroom environment as conducive to sleep as possible. So things like exercising during the day, particularly late afternoon, early evening, if you're able to just swing that. Um, caffeine, what I tell people about caffeine, the it's different from person to person, but on for the average adult, caffeine has a half-life of four to five hours. So however much caffeine you ingest, four to five hours later, you've still got half the amount. And so I'll tell people just kind of keep that in mind when you're trying to time how late I should have caffeine. Caffeine in the morning is most likely fine. Um, so somewhere like I don't know, six to ten hours of bedtime. Um nicotine is horrible for sleep. Like um, people will say it called that that smoking calms them down. And it it does, insofar as it's like it's stopping withdrawal, but um nicotine's horrible for sleep. If there's a as far as eating, if there's a long, if you have dinner early, if there's like a long gap of time between the time you eat dinner and the time you go to bed, then eating a light snack before bedtime, something like crackers or bread, crackers, bread, cereal, and fruit is usually like one of those. Um, try not to try to avoid anything that's really sweet before bedtime, just because this thing can happen where your blood sugar like shoots up and then it drops, and it's that blood sugar drop that can disrupt your sleep. Um, I want to say one of the best things I think anybody can do is to try to get out of bed at the same time every day. Um, within an hour. I mean, it doesn't have to be to the minute, but within about an hour, try not to vary your wake time by more than an hour. And that's good for people with insomnia, people without insomnia, like anybody. Um, that's a thing that shows up on sleep hygiene lists a lot. And that's probably the most impactful out of everything is just that regularity in the time that you're getting out of bed with within an hour. Um, let me think if there's anything. I'm trying to just like go through my the list in my memory of sleep hygiene. Oh, trying to make your bedroom as dark and cool and quiet as as it can be. Have a comfortable bed, all that kind of stuff. Um, all of that is helpful. None of it's gonna be helpful if you're still bringing in like tons of sleep effort. So you could have like the most perfect mattress in the world, but if you're still trying really hard to sleep, it's it's not gonna work. So that's never gonna be the thing that fixes it, but it's all really good stuff to good stuff to do. And I would say like probably the most impactful thing that people can do is getting out of bed at a consistent time every day.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I I love all of those tips, all so helpful. And this one about getting out of bed at a consistent time is one I actually haven't heard before. And, you know, I really like routine, I really like like habits and consistency. That's something that just like my system responds to so well. I don't know if it's from being like an athlete and just having like so much routine growing up, but I really thrive when I have structure. And so that feels like really good to me. If I I don't have any knock on one, I don't have any like sleep issues right now, but if I did, I would be using that one.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes, yeah, yeah, because what it does is it sets your so your circadian rhythm is the thing that determines the timing of when you're asleep and when you're awake. And it's this like roughly 24-hour biological rhythm. Uh, all humans, really all living things, have a circadian rhythm and it and it determines like when you're asleep and when you're awake. So if the time you're getting out of bed is highly erratic, it's kind of the same as if you were like traveling across multiple time zones every single day. Because the time you get out of bed determines kind of how the rest of your day goes. It determines your light exposure, your meals, your social interaction, like all the other things you do during the day tend to be related to the time you're getting out of bed. And so if that's inconsistent, it's kind of like your brain does not know what time it we call it social jet lag. Um, it's like your brain doesn't know what time it is, and it's like constantly trying to trying to adjust and then adjust and then adjust, and then it never really lands anywhere. And so then people will get where it's like super unpredictable. They're like, I don't know what time I'm gonna fall asleep, I don't know what time I'm gonna wake up, I don't know if I'm gonna sleep, if I'm not gonna sleep, um, because their brain is like super confused as to what time it is. And so getting out of bed at the same time every day teaches your brain what time it is. And if your brain knows what time it is, then it knows if you need to be alert or asleep. Um, yeah, so that's kind of that's that's what's going on with that.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I really relate to that feeling. I think that I've experienced it before where maybe I've like slept in later unexpectedly, or you know, whatever the case might be. And sometimes if I that happens to me, I wake up feeling groggy. And I think that's like the I wake up feeling more tired. I'm like, oh, this doesn't feel great. Yep. Um so it's like a you know, not not the most fun spot to be in sometimes. Right. Um this might be like a little bit repetitive, but if not, no, you know, great. Um are there, would you say that there's anything in particular in terms of like a morning routine or an evening routine that might be like helpful? Like the first thing that comes to mind is like a cup of tea, like having warm tea or something like that. Or, you know, I like to work out first thing in the morning. You mentioned movement like throughout the day. Um anything that comes to mind with like morning or evening routines?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Um, so as far as I'll start with the evening routines, I think it's a good idea for everybody to have a like buffer zone or wind down period. So like 30 to 60 minutes between uh like 30 to 60 minutes before you think you want to try to go to bed. Have a time where you're like kind of stopping the activity of the day and you're like transitioning, you're like easing, easing off the day, easing onto the night. Um falling asleep really should be this kind of slow, gradual, like 10 to 30 minutes is what's considered normal for how long it should take someone to fall asleep. Humans really are not supposed to just like drop, you know, slam into sleep and fall asleep in two minutes. And like if you fall asleep as soon as your head hits the pillow, um, doesn't necessarily mean there's something wrong, but it could be the people, but people who fall asleep very quickly a lot of the time are people who have like untreated sleep apnea or some other kind of sleep disorder, or they're drunk, or like like falling asleep super fast isn't always the bet, it's not always the bet the best thing. So it should be this kind of slow, gentle, you know, kind of easing off the day, easing onto the night. Whatever you do, I think, you know, whatever you want to do during that time is is is mostly fine. Um you know, screens are not, they're not not a factor, but I don't, I don't know that they're as big of a factor. Again, like if you're hyper focused on the screens and you get all the screens out of your life, but you're still doing tons of sleep effort, um, it's it it's it's not gonna matter. Morning routines, get getting out of bed, like getting out of bed at the same time and trying to get light exposure as soon as you wake up. Sunlight is really best. Um, but depending on what time you're waking up, you may not have sunlight, but trying to get some light exposure after you wake up, I think really helps just like start the day and kind of set the like to let your brain know it's morning, it's time to be awake. Um, so those that's kind of my recommendation around like evening routines and and what what to do in the morning.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, that's all really helpful. That makes a lot of sense. Um, yeah, and one major takeaway that I'm receiving and like a common theme that I think you've been referring to is around that sense of like effort and like not trying to kind of you know put this intention in like a chokehold of some sort and really listening to your body, like listening to what you need, trying to be gentle with yourself. Um, would you say that uh most people, this is where they're getting stuck around the effort? Is that where what you would see, or do you see them getting like stuck in other places, or is that mainly what you're seeing?

SPEAKER_00:

For sure, with insomnia, like I would say kind of the top, the two, the top two culprits. One is sleep effort. Um, the other is spending too much time in bed, which I can talk about here in a second. But we we could probably rename insomnia sleep effort syndrome, and it would still be an accurate, an accurate description because people get it like at some point they start to notice uh oh, I'm not sleeping. Oh no, this is a problem. Oh no, oh no, oh no, I gotta fix it. And then they start doing sleep effort, and sleep effort can be meditation, can be sleep effort, breathing can be sleep effort, like any tool in the toolbox can become sleep effort if you're applying it with way too much pressure. It's just like if you try too hard to relax, relaxation doesn't, doesn't seem to come. It's more like, okay, I'm just gonna let it come find me when it's ready. And we just kind of have this easy, easy manner, this lightness, and it that tends to work a lot better than like aggressively pursuing it. So yeah, sleep effort, I think, is a huge, huge, huge, huge culprit. And then the other culprit, the other big thing that I see in insomnia is people will start spending more and more and more time in bed, right? Because they're trying to get more sleep. And so they figure if I spend more time in bed, surely I'll get more sleep. And it's kind of like if you were to go, I don't know, I'm not sure why anybody would do this, but if you wanted bigger feet, uh and so you went and bought big shoes, thinking that your feet would grow to like fill the space. Like again, I don't know why anybody would do that, but but it's like that. Like you um spending more time in bed is not gonna get you more sleep. But people will start doing this thing where they go to bed earlier or they linger in bed later, or if they wake up in the middle of the night, they just lay there trying like hell to sleep. And that's it makes sense to be like, oh, I'm I need sleep. Let me be in bed to get sleep. But excessive time in bed relative to how much you're sleeping is one of the things that can undercut your your sleep drive, which is the again, that thing that determines how much sleep you get and what the quality of that sleep is. So, in my opinion, those are really the top two. It's not the screens, it's not the caffeine, it's that you're spending too much time in bed and you were trying way too hard to sleep.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, yeah. I love that. Um, really helpful, really insightful. I've learned so much from our conversation. Um, I do have two more questions. Is there anything else that I haven't asked before I asked those two questions that I haven't asked that that you want to share? Do you feel like we covered everything? Let me think.

SPEAKER_00:

I think we hit a lot of the main um, I guess one other one other just little piece of advice that I'll give is which kind of related to um what we've already talked about, is don't get into bed until you feel ready to fall asleep. Um, try not to get into bed until you feel sleepy, which may or may not be the time you want to go to bed. Try not to base it so much on the time, but on how ready you feel to fall asleep. So that's one other just um the only other thing that I would add that I think would be useful for people.

SPEAKER_01:

Um, but yeah, other than that. Yeah, I think that's really helpful. I that's it's funny that you mentioned that because the other night when I had this like bad night of sleep, the next night I was like, I'm not going to bed until I feel sleepy. So it's so funny that you mention that. So I stayed up like a little bit later than I normally would so that I could feel like the sleepiness. That way I wouldn't get like frustrated when I went to bed. Right.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes, yes, that's exactly it.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. So this was this was a great conversation. I mean, I learned so much. Um, I would love to share with the listeners like how they can stay connected with you. I know you have a newsletter, you have YouTube, like where where are you in the in the universe?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. So I I I have I have a small YouTube channel for my therapy practice. I post, I've got a lot of content on there about sleep. I've also got stuff on there about my other five, my other four specialties. Um, have a monthly newsletter and I kind of rotate the topics between my different um um my different specialties. Um, I'm also on LinkedIn and uh Pinterest randomly. Um I've started like just putting together a little like content on on those related to to sleep and to my other specialties. Um yeah, so let's see, um LinkedIn Pinterest. My website is uh just JessicaFink Therapy.com. I have a blog that's got again lots of stuff about sleep, as well as some stuff about my other specialties. Um, if you're located in Texas, there's a uh tells you how to contact me about working with me. But even if you're not located in Texas, my hope is that the the blog and the YouTube channel and some of the other stuff still have useful information for people.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, they seem like great resources. Um, definitely, definitely check them out. And the last question, this is something that I ask every guest speaker is uh, what is one thing that is really lighting you up right now? So this could be anything. This could be a book, a person, a class you recently took, a show that you're watching. It could just be something that you're like really loving, really enjoying that's yeah, lighting you up.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. So I just started reading this really interesting book. So a month ago, maybe, well, maybe two months ago, back in October, um, my husband and I went to Amsterdam. And one of the places that we went when we were in Amsterdam was was the Van the Van Gogh Museum, um, which was really is one of my favorite things from everything we did on the trip. It was really interesting. And so I was like, okay, I want to know more about this man because he's he's interesting. And so I found this book. It's called Vincent's Women. I just started reading it, but it's kind of the it's his life story, but told from the perspective of the women in his life. So it's like narrated mostly by his sister-in-law, but it also talks like his mother and like the women he had like romantic um interactions with. And um, so it's, I mean, it's it's a it's it's it's fiction, it's fiction, but it's based on real. Like the author did a bunch of research and read a bunch of letters, and like it's based on real stuff. Um, but it, you know, it's based on like this the these conversations, there's that like the the whole idea is like the his sister-in-law is telling the story of his life to her son. Um so it's fix, I guess quote unquote fiction as far as that goes, but it's like fiction based on real, based on real stuff, if that makes any sense. So yeah, I just I was like, oh, what an interesting idea. So yeah, so that's the end.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, that sounds really interesting. Um did you I've never been to Amsterdam. Did you uh did you have fun? Did you enjoy your trip?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, yeah, we really, we really enjoyed it.

SPEAKER_01:

Amazing.

SPEAKER_00:

Um, yeah, it's a cool place.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I'll have to add it to my list. Um yeah, so thank you again, Jessica, so much for being on the podcast. This was a lovely conversation. And yeah, thank you for being here. All right, yeah, thanks for having me. Thank you for being here and tuning in to Somatic Healing for Wellness Focused Women Podcast. If you were moved or inspired by today's episode, please take a moment to leave a rating and review on Apple Podcasts. It truly helps the podcast grow and helps more people find me on their healing journey. Make sure to check out the show notes to sign up for the monthly newsletter, links to more resources, opportunities to work with me, and ways that we can stay connected. If we aren't already connected on social media, head over to Instagram to follow me at Ray the Sematic Coach. Send me a DM. I'd love to connect with you, and I answer each note that comes in. I am so happy you're here, and I cannot wait to talk with you on our next episode of the podcast.