Be the Sun, Not the Salt
The "Be the Sun, Not the Salt” podcast will inspire you, equip you, and remind you HOW to be the better version of yourself - you already know WHY you should be. Dr. Harry Cohen, an unconventional shrink, and his co-host, innovative marketer Connie Fontaine, will interview famous and not-so-famous guests who make being the Sun, and not the Salt, a daily practice. This podcast is based on the tips from the book, "Be the Sun, Not the Salt."
Be the Sun, Not the Salt
#22 The Empowered Life: Cultivating Strength & Kindness with Rachel Hollis
Join us for an inspiring conversation with Rachel Hollis, who opens up about her remarkable journey from lifestyle blogger to best-selling author. Rachel's candid stories reveal how life's twists and turns have shaped her into the motivational powerhouse she is today.
Rachel's infectious energy shines through as she discusses her upcoming book, 'What If YOU Are the Answer?' a hard-won guide for self discovery that guides readers on a journey through thought-provoking questions. Her passion for helping others find their path is evident in every word.
Throughout the episode, Rachel emphasizes the importance of self-compassion and embracing life's joys, big and small. She challenges us to question our ingrained beliefs and take positive steps towards personal growth. Rachel's authenticity and vibrant approach to life serve as a refreshing reminder that we can thrive, even when faced with life's inevitable challenges.
About Rachel Hollis
Rachel Hollis is a #1 New York Times bestselling author whose work has impacted millions of readers worldwide. Through her books, speaking engagements, and "The Rachel Hollis Podcast," she explores life's unspoken truths and engages in real conversations, particularly about obstacles faced by women today. A mother of four and entrepreneur for over two decades, Rachel's candid storytelling and relatable humor make her a beacon for those seeking fresh perspectives on life's challenges and triumphs.
Links & References
What If You Are the Answer? By Rachel Hollis
(upload your pre-order receipt here to receive a bonus workbook, planner, and class!)
Rachels’ podcast episode 615: How To Live a Better Life Using Mindfulness with DR. HARRY COHEN
The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe, by C.S. Lewis
Bob Goff, Rachel’s mentor
The Witches: Salem, 1692 by Stacy Schiff
Be the Sun, Not the Salt, by Dr. Harry Cohen
To explore the book, or for more episodes, information, tips and tools to live a more heliotropic life, visit us at bethesunnotthesalt.com and find us on Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn and TikTok.
[00:00:00]
Rachel Hollis: Unfortunately, life is up and down and bad will find us. Using that as your rationale for why you don't pursue more love, more joy, more hope, more opportunity, more faith, is actually a plan that doesn't work. It will come back around no matter what. So if gosh, if the hard times are going to find you, let them find you, laughing, let them find you dancing.
Let them find you trying to build a company. Let them find you doing something worth doing.
Connie Fontaine: That voice and our guest today is bestselling author and podcaster, Rachel Hollis.
Harry Cohen: And boy, did we have such a fun time connecting with her. Now, I had met her when we, when I did her podcast out in LA and Connie, you then got to experience what a joy she is. She's been on, she's been on this journey of heliotropic growth for a number of years and she's brought her audience along with her.
Connie Fontaine: That's right. Her audience of millions, which she's got a lot of followers. There's so [00:01:00] many amazing insights from Rachel that she brings to the party, And now she's putting all that into her next book. So after three best selling books that she's already got on the, on the table for us, she's got this fourth one coming out in January and it's called What If You Are the Answer. And it's the perfect time. We're proud to be part of this launch with her and now we can share these insights with all of you. I love this conversation. Let's get right into it.
It's such a delight to be chatting with you again, Rachel.
Rachel Hollis: Yeah.
Harry Cohen: Connie, I told Connie about my visit to you and you don't know this, but you were my very first in person in studio podcast experience. And I came away from it with such a wonderful impression of you. And I told Connie about how you made me feel.
You made me feel so welcomed. You made me feel listened to. You were so hospitable. I don't know if you remember, but we were done and I was like, [00:02:00] okay, I got five hours till my flight back. I want to go for a walk. And you were so elegant in your, no, I'm busy, but here, why don't you go to the Getty museum?
And then you purchased a ticket for me at the Getty.
Connie Fontaine: Anything
Harry Cohen: It was a beautiful.
Rachel Hollis: No, I just wanted to take care
Harry Cohen: Well, you did not only do you want to take care of you did take care of me. It's the kind of thing that we talk about in our podcast, in your work. I didn't know who you were at all. And afterwards, I swear to God, read them, listen to them, read your newest.
And listen to your podcast this morning. So my wife said, how do you feel about your interview with Rachel Hollis today? I said, I feel great. I feel like I know her. I feel like it's such a relaxed, chill conversation. I'm thrilled that we get to do this. And Connie's so thrilled that you get to meet Rachel Hollis.
Let's rock and roll.
Connie Fontaine: the edit relaxed. You [00:03:00]
Rachel Hollis: Yeah.
Connie Fontaine: Your legs were crossed. I thought, well that looks nice and
cozy. Yeah,
Rachel Hollis: really wanted I think that is such a. A lovely perk of getting to record the podcast at my home and that was very intentional was I wanted people to come into my space and I want to make you coffee and, chat about travel and do the whole thing because I feel like those are, that's one of those elements that's often lost today is welcoming people into your home. And I think if I can do that in the business setting, it's really.
I don't know, it just makes for a more
realistic and beautiful experience, I hope, on
both sides.
Connie Fontaine: Well, and it's your brand too I think I follow I watch everything from the eyebrows. I really wanted to have better eyebrows for you today, but I do not. And
that and what was my favorite, I think I mentioned to you guys that I saw when you were, it was like dressed like a grandpa
Rachel Hollis: [00:04:00] Yeah,
Connie Fontaine: That's my whole goal in life
today like a You are not
just like a grandpa did grandpa that day your great day, when you're not having a such a great day.
And I think that's what makes you.
Rachel Hollis: Yeah. I think I have really felt the call, especially in the last six months. I don't know if you guys feel like this, but I just, everything that I see in media, and I'm sure it's because we're in an election year and it's so divisive is,
It all feels very hard. And our real lives are hard.
Every single person I know has responsibilities and things that they're going through. So I try as much as possible to show up authentically. Like you said, Connie, if I'm having a hard day, I will say it. But simultaneously, I really am just trying to post things that are joyful. I'm usually laughing at myself, like.
I assume nobody cares that I made butter chicken on Sunday night, but I'm going to like show [00:05:00] you me cooking for my kids because I just hope that there's a little bit of levity when I put those things out there that can hopefully counterbalance some of the harshness that we see in media.
Harry Cohen: I have listed all of these quotes and comments that I have been taking notes while I read and listen to your books and soon to be released book, The Answer Is You. So, I wrote down all these questions. I said to Connie, listen to these questions and comments I would like Rachel to comment on. We don't know, we won't get through all of them, but you'll go, oh yeah, I
remember saying that. What?
Connie Fontaine: you didn't before I mean I do My 33 year old daughter is
excited that we're talking to you today.
So I, but give you a chance to just kind of give us the Rachel, a little bit of a Rachel backstory, how you started where you are and how you got to where you, because this new book that's coming out is just, it's this new level.
It's this evolved [00:06:00] Rachel. And I'd love to have this backstory as part of the interview before we get to all that, if that's okay. Okay.
Rachel Hollis: Yeah so I actually started And I'm going to say in the internet back in 2008 as a blogger. And that was sort of the heyday of starting a blog. And I really, like most things in life, didn't know what I was doing. I just would write little things about my life. I would write about what I made for dinner or how I made a throw pillow or some gardening that I was trying.
And I don't know that I was very good as a lifestyle blogger. I didn't make. Pretty pictures. It wasn't curated beautifully, but I think I've always been pretty good at communicating with particularly a female audience. Because I just, I really do imagine that I'm just talking to a friend. And so I started to write this blog and over time it grew and got a little audience and then got a little bigger and I was able to start hiring people to help me.
So all of a sudden I had a food stylist who could take my recipes and actually make [00:07:00] them look good. Appetizing
and I built this lifestyle website and did that for several years and really enjoyed it and had a really good time and had a little staff of five. And I still today, a lot of those blog posts are on my website.
I was actually just looking at them the other day and I was like, I'm really proud of this
Connie Fontaine: This is cool
Rachel Hollis: Yeah, it's beautiful. And it's well written. And I think, still has a, an audience of people that check it out and. As I was writing every day, and I'm a voracious reader, I love love books. I, books are responsible for who I am today. And I think it's pretty common, I would assume, if you're writing every day for your job and you're reading every day for pleasure, that you start to think about what you might write if you got to write a book. And I was, I remember 11 years old, the first time I realized that was someone's job to write the books that I was reading and I thought, Oh, wow, that would be amazing to be able to write books.
The first book that I [00:08:00] attempted to write, or I guess I didn't attempt, I actually pulled it off was a fiction book. Based on my own experience, so I had moved to Los Angeles as a very young woman and started working in an event planning firm that was throwing pretty big celebrity events and I was such a country mouse and I was so out of my element and then years later I would use that as the impetus for the first book I ever wrote. that is one of my favorite stories, actually, if you'll let me tell it, is, I had dreamed of being an author for so, so, so long. And I had told myself that all I needed to do to be successful as an author was just finish a manuscript. Like, I just thought, if I could just finish, then I will be able to have this dream come true.
And I finished my first manuscript and I got a literary agent and that literary agent sent it to different publishers, you know, you hope that someone will publish it and one by one that that book was rejected, and it was rejected, I [00:09:00] was told over and over, It's too sweet. sweet.
And what that was sort of lingo for it's not a sexy book. There's nothing, like, sort of scandalous, there's nothing sexy, it's too sweet of a story. And I got pretty far with a couple publishers, and I had to, do calls with them and they said, it's really sweet. And I was like, thank you.
And they were like, yeah, we don't really want, that's not what the market wants right now. Do you think you could make this a sexier book? And this was just, right about the time of 50 shades of gray and those kinds of books, and that's what they were asking for. And all I could think of was my Meemaw and what she would think if I wrote it.
And I was like I just, I can't, I don't even know how to write that. I barely know how to do it. So like,
Connie Fontaine: Certain things you don't wanna share with Memaw
That's right
Rachel Hollis: So I said, Oh I'm so sorry. I don't think I can write that way. And they said, okay, well, then we're not interested in publishing your book. And I remember the day that the last publisher rejected the book. I closed myself in my bathroom and I [00:10:00] legitimately sat on the floor and just wept.
I felt so strong, like my dreams are over. I'll never amount to anything, but you know, all those stories, we tell ourselves. And I sat there, I had a good cry. And then I heard a voice which is, I think of as inner wisdom or God or your guardian angels or whatever you believe in said You already did the hard part. You wrote the book, you did the hard part. I was like, you're right. I did do the hard part. And I got up off the bathroom floor and I went to the kitchen I Googled, how do you self publish a book? And I figured out how to self publish and that book came out.
And I think, five people bought copies. And then I still don't know really how, but one person would recommend it to another who would recommend it to another. And over the next six months, that book kept growing and getting bigger. And the exact reason no publisher wanted it because it was too sweet is the exact reason it was successful because the market was saturated with one kind [00:11:00] of thing. And it kept getting more and more popular. Six months later, a publisher reached out and said, Hey, we can see how well this is doing. We'd like to publish this book and we think it's a series. Okay. And I always tell that story because
if I had listened to the voice of authority, if I had listened to the rejection, if I had listened to everybody else who was smarter than me on the subject, that book would still be sitting on my computer. So I always love this idea that like, you did the hard part. You did the hard part and see where you can take it.
And
Connie Fontaine: Push it over the finish
Rachel Hollis: yeah, launched my career as an author. And then years later, I had another dear friend who is a nonfiction author who said, what would you write to women? What would you say if you could say
Connie Fontaine: Huh
Rachel Hollis: I never even knew the idea was inside of me and immediately it came pouring out. Just like, Oh, I just wish women knew how powerful they were. I wish they knew to stand back up and go again. I wish they knew that failure is part of the process. I was so passionate. I kept just like spitting all these [00:12:00] ideas out.
And I was like, girl, stand up and go again, girl, like believe in yourself, girl. And she said, girl, wash your face.
I was like,
that's a really good title for a book.
Connie Fontaine: Yeah
Rachel Hollis: And the rest is sort of
Connie Fontaine: And the rest is history.
then three New
Rachel Hollis: Yeah,
exactly.
Harry Cohen: don't let that one slide by because that last beautiful point that Connie said, Oh wait, three New York times bestsellers, girl, what? So wait, soon to be forth. But the first one, girl, wash your face, girl, stop apologizing.
And I didn't see that coming.
Rachel Hollis: Didn't see that coming. Yeah.
Harry Cohen: And so in the latest, and those are three New York Times bestsellers
Rachel Hollis: Yeah
And the really cool thing about Girl, Wash Your Face, I had dreamed of being a New York Times bestseller for as long as I'd been writing books.
But what so many people didn't realize was the successful book was book number five. It wasn't book number one or [00:13:00] two or three. It was book five. So when it was successful and no one had ever heard of me before, people would say, Oh my gosh, you have had this success on your first book. And I was like no, I have not. It really did take a while. And even when it came out, it was not an instant bestseller. It was very similar to party girl, my first fiction book where. A few people read it and then they gave it to their friends and they gave it to their friends and three months after it came out, it hit the New York Times list, which is pretty unheard of. You kind of have that one initial push and you hope it works. But yeah, where I am today is a lot of, it's a lot of like slow burn and just trying to do really good work and then hoping that if you do really good work, people will pass the work around
Connie Fontaine: now that you have three bestsellers why do you think people
love your book Mostly women of course.
Rachel Hollis: I, my instinct has always been that in a world of. Sort of being perfect and needing to be a certain way in order to [00:14:00] fit in. I have always talked about the things you're not supposed to talk about. Even in the new book, I had a new editor who wasn't as familiar with my style of writing and so many times she was like, you're talking, you're really talking about perimenopause a lot and you're really talking about this a lot and you're talking about postpartum depression a lot.
And I'm like, yeah. Yeah. Because we are really living with this stuff every single day and no one's talking about it. And I hope, I try and always write as much as I can with humor because I, again, I think life is hard and we should laugh about what we're going through. But I try and tell real life stories and share real life experiences and I never ever want it to feel like I am I'm not an expert, because I'm not.
I'm barely figuring out my own life. What I hope I'm doing is being your friend and telling you some ideas that work for me. And even if my ideas don't work for you,
you hearing about the journey I took to get to them [00:15:00] might encourage you to go on
your own
Connie Fontaine: Yeah Inspires some other
Harry Cohen: so that point, one of my questions that Connie stole. Which was what Oprah asked you, which is why do you think your books are so popular and your answer is so magnificent in what you just said, which is my experience of you. I said to my wife, she's so good for women of her, she describes her life during her ages and stages of her life.
And for women who don't have role models, or mothers, or sisters, or dear, wise, mentor y friends who can give them the counsel and the experience and the story of reality, you provide that for them. As I listened to your books
listened to your podcast, I hope that men, some portion of men.
Connie Fontaine: Yeah
Harry Cohen: would avail themselves of the wisdom [00:16:00] because there's a ton there.
I know we know this and it's really quite impressive in its real authentic nature. You say, and I don't know where you got this quote from, but I've stolen it and used it. We should teach from our scars, never from our wounds. And what you have done is you wait for them to heal a little bit before you speak about it.
The lessons from those scars. And just this morning I was listening to a bunch of stuff. I won't talk about what you're talking about this morning on your podcast, but it's, I don't have a uterus, so it was extremely valuable for people who do
or did I'm proud of you for the work you do.
Rachel Hollis: Thank you
I appreciate
Harry Cohen: Welcome.
Connie Fontaine: and he has become a student of in I mean, you dove right in
how this insight in the way you talk is the, so much of it's so good for all humans, [00:17:00] age, gender doesn't matter, but I think the other thing that you talked about Harry was, I think the piece that Rachel does where she's so honest and it's not.
It's just genuine. I think that's the most important part of all of
Harry Cohen: One of the things that we talk about, Connie, is that being heliotropic, being the sun, being this positive energizer, one of the qualities, just one, there are many, is authenticity and authentic vulnerability, which makes people go, oh, I like that person. That's one of the reasons why you are so effective and You write, if you can't see it, how can you know that you can be it?
One of the things that we want this podcast to be is to show people, look, there's one, there's an example. Look,
one. And from that seeing it, oh, I guess I could do it too. Yeah, you do it.[00:18:00]
Rachel Hollis: Yeah There's actually, I can't remember whose quote that is originally. Someone much, much wiser than me, but it is such a real thing. It particularly for communities who maybe haven't seen examples of it. Themselves succeeding in certain ways, whether that's women or people of color or people in lower socioeconomic environments.
Like if you haven't seen someone from your community, be a judge, be a athlete. Lead a team, have a healthy family, be a healthy person, deal with mental health. Like, if you have no model of that behavior, you assume it's for someone other than you. That's a really common thing within my community of readers and listeners is this idea.
You see someone doing something that you really admire and think would be great. And you're like, Oh, but that's for that kind of person. That's for her. That's for my sister. That's for, my mother in law. [00:19:00] Like I could never
Connie Fontaine: I could never do
Rachel Hollis: that. Yeah. And it's just such a lie that really holds us hostage or keeps us stuck in this space that we're living in we don't understand how powerful we are.
We're so incredibly powerful. And it takes. That courage to, like, just take a step. Just try one thing. Just see what happens when you go outside your comfort zone. And in doing so, you probably surprise yourself.
So, modeling behavior was one of the first things I learned when I was getting into personal development was like, who are you?
Can you see who's doing the thing that you're doing? And it's actually how I found myself inside of this world is I got really into personal development. I wanted to work on myself and I wanted to heal and do therapy and all of the things. And I didn't have examples. So I started to go to personal development conferences. they were so helpful for me. Like Tony Robbins [00:20:00] was so helpful for me. And there's incredible teachers that were so wise and I learned so much from, but every single conference I went to, and this is a decade ago, were men.
And not only were they men, but they were like very alpha male, like intense, scream at you, like, and if you look at a lot of my earlier work, I can see myself modeling that behavior because I didn't know what it looked like to do that from my own perspective. I really landed inside this world because I would sit at those conferences and just get more and more frustrated. Like, why is that? Why is there a woman never speaking? Where are the women? And I, it was especially important to me because remember being at a conference and I was so fired up and it was like, go home and you're gonna kill it.
And there's no excuses. I like do the thing. And I was like, Oh, Yeah, but I got to make school lunches for three kids. And yeah, but [00:21:00] are excuses. There's really good justifiable reasons in our life, whether you're caring for kids, trying to heal yourself, caring for an aging parent. Like there's all of these things that commonly fall on women do. Prevent us from pursuing things. So I was like, who is talking to us using our language? And I just kept thinking, who is it? Who is it? Who is it? And one day I
was like Oh maybe it's supposed to be me
Harry Cohen: Don't
you love that?
Connie Fontaine: Well and that and Harry the other thing you pointed out to me.
is as you've read these books, especially in such a short
this evolution of Rachel, you said, it's like I've watched, I feel like I've watched her grow up, which, there's so many listeners and followers of yours, like my daughter's 33, so she's been following you since she was, a young person coming out of school
mom and I watched that, she's grown with you because, because your lives have grown and changed at the same time.
So,
Rachel Hollis: for sure. and I think that's a lot of what the new [00:22:00] book is about is this. When I wrote Girl, Wash Your Face, I really felt like if I wanted to help people, I had to have their answers. I was like, I can tell you what to do. I can tell you ideas. I can help you get through this. And I'm older now, and I've had a really hard, five years that has softened my heart and my spirit in a lot of ways. And I come out the other side of that just realizing I cannot possibly have answers for other people. I barely have answers for myself. I can walk beside you. And I can share some questions that really helped me to do my own deep dive and my own unpacking. And so that was the impetus for this book was could I give you potentially a framework
yourself answers.
So you're not getting my ideas or my wisdom. You're getting hopefully your own.
Connie Fontaine: right
Harry Cohen: So we got an advanced copy, which we read, nanny. Everyone will get one in [00:23:00] January, but when Connie and I went through it, it really is the evolution of your growing up and becoming the wiser sage. That you are loved those questions all 26 of them. We're not going to rattle off all of them But we loved them for the purpose For what you just articulated their purposes to be to help the reader go.
Oh, yeah, that's good I used them. I love them. I mean, here's I just give you one. Oh my god. There's so many what's your floor?
Rachel Hollis: Yeah.
Harry Cohen: what we, I'm just going to, a little tease on this one, you can speak to, but what I took from that, what we take, our work, this, be the sun, not the salt. We want a zero floor for salty behavior.
We want a zero tolerance for being snarky at all. Well, everyone gets snarky sometimes. Yeah, but I want, I don't, I want to be. Like he's, I want to be welcoming always. [00:24:00] I don't want to be, I want my floor to be zero tolerance. So anyway, that's just one of the questions that you ask. That I think is gonna, I think will help a ton of people.
Rachel Hollis: That was hugely influential in my life in learning how to evolve in learning how to grow, whether it was in being an entrepreneur and growing my business. Or doing better as a person, doing better in my health, understanding, like when I was younger and I talk about this in this chapter is this idea like, I thought, Oh, all I need is an imagination if I have a big imagination and I work really hard, then I can achieve anything. what I've come to understand over time is that it doesn't matter how big the sky is. you keep devolving, if you keep backtracking, if you keep backsliding, if you keep going backwards. So the thing that actually affects change in our [00:25:00] life, really positive change, is not coming up with bigger, grander ideas. It's about readjusting What is your standard? What is the floor on which you stand? If you say, I'm putting my flag in the ground right here, and I will never again go back to the way things were, that's what elevates your life. Because now you're actually starting at a higher level. You're actually starting closer to the sky because your elevation has changed. It's the decisions that we make where we say, never again. Once we make a never again decision, that's when we really start to see things explode in positive ways.
Harry Cohen: So beautiful. You have another one. If everything around you is unhealthy becomes the standard. It's the fish. What do you think of the water? What's water? It's, we can't, sometimes we humans can't see what's there are, what's
unhealthy standard. [00:26:00] Yeah.
Rachel Hollis: when we grow up and if we decide to get married or we get a partner and perhaps that partner comes from a healthier family and then you go home, you go home for Hanukkah, you go home for Thanksgiving, you go home for Christmas, you meet their family and you're like,
and people are kind
Connie Fontaine: You're having fun
Rachel Hollis: play gear having fun or the opposite is true. You go into their family home expecting what you grew up with, which was kind and beautiful, and you encounter something completely different. I think that's one of the things that changes the biology of a family tree is when new elements come into it.
And suddenly you have a different perspective. So, it's so important to go to new places, to meet new people, to bring new friends into your environment so that we're constantly expanding our worldview to understand. We see this a lot [00:27:00] in like, if you were raised in certain environment, I was raised in a very religious, very conservative environment that was incredibly patriarchal and had a lot of opinions about women and how they should act and behave and. It's taken years of therapy to try and unpack all of these beliefs that I had in my head about the way I was supposed to show up and be a good girl. I'm sure that they'll still, that's layers of onion that I'll keep peeling back. But if you don't ever, if you're not ever exposed to any other people or any other thought process,
you won't realize
the narratives that you have
come to believe.
Connie Fontaine: your
Rachel Hollis: Yeah
Connie Fontaine: thresholds it's the same thing that Harry was talking about with salt. We can't expect people not to be salty, but we're going to expect zero tolerance from ourselves to deliver it. Now we're going to mess up and we're going to make it better. And we're going to apologize, but that's setting those thresholds and levels of tolerance. It's [00:28:00] important for you to do for yourself. Don't worry about everybody else.
Harry Cohen: you said another, I couldn't agree with you guys more. You said another beautiful thing, which is we all, and you said it just recently about the family we grew up in.
We all have preposterous beliefs. We just don't know which ones they are yet. I can't tell you how many times ever since I either read it, heard it, or you said, I don't know where I got it from you.
Rachel Hollis: Yeah I think her name is Stacey Schiff. She wrote a book called Witches. And she's actually talking about the Salem
Witch trials. That we all have these preposterous beliefs, we just don't know what they are yet. And the joke I make in the book is like, she's referring to this religious oppression of women.
Thank goodness we don't do that anymore, and obviously we
Connie Fontaine: wink Yes
Rachel Hollis: I mean, that literally, I think that's in the first chapter of the book is the Mike Tyson quote. Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the face that we all have these capital T truths. Every single [00:29:00] person who is listening to us have this conversation right now.
We have capital T truths. We believe with all our might, and it is only because life has not yet. Punched us in the face around this particular topic that we hold firm to our thoughts there. So what I've learned over the last five years is like, or 41 years, depending on how you want to look at it, is that I want to hold a lot more grace for my belief system to understand that, like, yeah, this is what I think, simultaneously I haven't had the That person's life experience.
I don't know what that feels like. I don't know how that might show up or how I might be a different person if I was born into the world that they're in. So yeah, just holding space for the fact that at any moment you are one life experience away from something completely shifting the way you see a particular part of your life. So not to be so like tightly grasping to the belief because that's [00:30:00] It could change at a moment's notice
Connie Fontaine: Would you be able to share one of those capital T truths
Rachel Hollis: Oh my gosh I have so many
I think a lot of mine, a lot of mine really stem from childhood and probably most people's do. And I go back to this. Growing up in a really conservative home, my father was a Pentecostal minister. My grandfather was a Pentecostal minister of southern descent. So really fire and brimstone and ideas about the way things were.
And probably one of the biggest, for me, was I was raised in an environment that if you did not believe exactly how we believed, meaning like if you didn't go to our church and believe exactly like we believed, then you were a sinner and you were evil and you were scary and we should stay away from you.
And much of the way we were taught.
To understand the world was through that lens and I grew up in a small town, so I was [00:31:00] not exposed to a lot of different people. And now I find myself at 41, like, completely different end of the spectrum. But honestly, even as I started to grow up and adjust and change my worldview, I had a lot of fear around.
Am I allowed? believe like am I allowed to think that everybody has the right to be themselves? Am I allowed to believe that they
have that freedom? Am I allowed? Am I going to get in trouble? Am I wrong? Am I a sinner? I know that word sounds so ridiculous to me now, but it was used in a lot of ways to oppress the members of our church and the way that we were brought up.
So that's a huge one. I think even if you didn't grow up in the same kind of Place I did. I bet a lot of people have their version of that.
that you, you just sort of, you, you adopt the behaviors or the ideas of your family of origin and mine took a lot of unpacking to understand that I didn't want to carry that same [00:32:00] view of the world.
Harry Cohen: we all have the, have a narrative that affects, infects our lives, whether we realize those narratives or not. And Connie, your point about those narratives, Rachel, yours too, oh my God, you have to see them to have anything to say about them. But sometimes they are unconscious. So if they can be made conscious, if I can be aware, I was just telling these guys right before you came on, my dad had a sentence that went into my head and it's still in my head and it's a nutty sentence, but I, at least I can see it and therefore I have a little bit of distance and some freedom from it, but
Rachel Hollis: I have a really lovely and dear mentorship Bob Goff and he has this line that I love that he's told me more than once. And I think has [00:33:00] written about and talks about when he gives and stuff. But he says, we all have stuff written on our cave walls. And every once in a while you got to go take a torch and you got to walk into the cave and you got to see what was written on your cave walls. and he's telling the story of his own
a lot of the things his dad had quite a lot of fear and his dad tried to instill that fear in his children. So he's like, man, I have a lot of fear written on my walls. And if I don't go in and like hold a light up
beliefs, I will continue to accidentally fall into a narrative that is not my
own
Harry Cohen: beautiful.
Connie Fontaine: that visual of
Rachel Hollis: Well and the fact that the cave is pretty
Connie Fontaine: Yeah
Rachel Hollis: you're like, I don't know what's in here.
Connie Fontaine: and
ancient
Rachel Hollis: and old and all of those things. And it takes a little bit of like a Indiana Jones, like some courage to walk in there and go, okay, I'm going to confront this stuff.
Harry Cohen: [00:34:00] Yeah.
And you're incredibly brave in your self inquiry muscle, your ability to do therapy, your ability to go deep inside to say, okay, what's going on? What kind of stupid narratives and where do they come from? You have got huge backbone to go after this. What we want to do is allow people who perhaps might not have the backbone to go deep into therapy or self work in this very moment.
Every single person listened to this podcast and every single person on the planet can be as kind and as welcoming as they already are a smidgen more. Your beautiful welcoming vibe to me is available. Everybody can do that. Everyone can smile at a stranger. Everyone can hold the door. Everyone can say thank you or please, or I'm sorry.
I interrupted you. Continue. Those moments, the tiniest moments, I want for all of our [00:35:00] listeners to go, well, I, at least I can do that. Yeah, you can.
Rachel Hollis: Yeah. could I add to that
instinct is to say that starts with a kindness to yourself. So often we're like, we're taught to be nice, to be good girls and good boys and leaders and do these things for other people. Nobody ever taught me to love myself. Nobody ever taught me that oftentimes if you struggle to give grace and compassion to other people, it's because you don't give it to yourself. I think that the most. Judge mental people in the world are their own minds. They must be so brutal to themselves and hold themselves to such an impossible standard. And so it gives them permission to be judgmental of others because They're judging themselves constantly.
Harry Cohen: As we go into this, especially going into a new year, and
Rachel Hollis: looking out over 2025, and we're trying to be better [00:36:00] to make a greater, better impact on the world around us. I cannot. Even express how much learning to go inward and really work on my own heart and really be graceful with my own self and really going like, yeah, mess up. Sometimes everybody does. We're gonna try again tomorrow we're gonna try again in five minutes. Like that has allowed me to be so much more loving to others, especially for anyone listening who is a parent.
I did this all the time with my kids where I'm like I'll get frustrated. I have a seven year old daughter who is a very strong willed child and she will, destroy your spirit at any given moment. And I'll get really frustrated with her. And I, and she can tell that I'm frustrated. Maybe my voice is than I want it to be.
And maybe I'm speaking more intensely and I'll walk out of the room and then I'm like, Oh man, I really just messed that up. Like, I did not show up in that moment the way I wanted to. And [00:37:00] I can ignore that the way my parents would have done. I can go, well, she's a kid and it's her job to listen. And it's my job to, yeah, exactly. Or I can understand that's not how I wanted to show up in that moment. I can be graceful with myself then I can walk back in and model that behavior for her. Hey, babe, I'm so sorry. Like mama didn't mean to get upset. going to try again. I felt really frustrated. Let's be better at talking that out next time. But that's only possible if I can be forgiving of myself and admit to myself that I've messed up so that I can go and better show up for other people.
Harry Cohen: Mic drop. Let's cut that piece out and post that around the world. Seriously, because that insight you think is. Maybe it's not as aware for others to understand it, but it really is the truth of it, Rachel, which is, if you are graceful, if we are graceful and kind to ourselves and self loving, then we [00:38:00] can love another.
You have a great quote, which is, you can never hate yourself healthy, which is the opposite of being kind to yourself. You should never, let me repeat that, never say, I hate the way I look. Would you go to town on that, please?
Rachel Hollis: Yeah.
I mean, this is my community is predominantly women. So this is a huge thing, body image and the way we perceive ourselves and how we were taught to behave and just all of this garbage that is heaped on us. And
can't even explain. I'm sure all of the women listening to this are on this call right now.
We all have our version of this where you think, man, if I could just take this thought out of my head, if I could just remove all thoughts of body image of not looking the right way, the space I would free up in my brain. I mean, we'd probably have a cure for everything by now if women weren't so obsessed [00:39:00] with their thighs, but. We are, most of us are taught that if you can dislike something enough, then you can fix it. If you can see enough examples of how you don't measure up, how you're to this, to that, to whatever, that then enough of that hatred will motivate you to eat less and to, do this or work out in this way.
And it's just Garbage. If it worked, we wouldn't have a multi-billion dollar diet industry built around. Trying another one and then trying this one, and then trying that one. So my alternative and what I've really tried to lean into with myself is like, you can hate yourself thin.
you can't hate yourself healthy
healthy is mind, body, spirit, soul, all of it. And just because you got super thin and you looked good in a bikini on Instagram doesn't mean that what's [00:40:00] going on the inside is whole and healthy. So it's kind of the opposite of everything that we're taught, but it really is astounding when you start to flip you start to challenge the narrative.
You start to realize, like Stacey Schiff says, that this is preposterous. is a preposterous belief. And what if, actually, I am worthy and enough as I am right now, today? And I don't need to do one more thing to be more worthy. What if we start from that place?
And what if we start to Take care of our health because we love ourselves, not because we want to change ourselves, but because we love ourselves.
We want to be the best that we can be. We want to live as long as possible. We want to feel good in this one body that we've been given. That's how we pursue health. It's not from a place of wanting to look a certain way. It's from a place of wanting to feel a certain way.
Harry Cohen: I just love that we get to share this with the world. I want more people. I want more men to hear this. Well, we, I'm a [00:41:00] man, I'm part of this community. I get to listen to this and I agree with, and believe, and practice, And something I said to you, and you reminded me
correctly, I said, doesn't everybody already know this?
And you said no, no, they don't.
Connie Fontaine: Well you're a student of life I mean that's I saw that I don't know if you
described somebody described you as a student of life sharer of ideas, and
of life, and yet every day you work at it. And that's the reminder for all of us is that's something we talk about every day.
We just strive to be a little bit better every day. We
The low is none. We want to be none of that bad stuff, but we're going to
We're going to get there. We're going to try not to. And I think that's where sending this message
whoever
to that.
It's all right. It's okay. You can try your hardest. You're still not going to be perfect.
Rachel Hollis: Yeah.
That was honestly the first personal development conference I went to a decade ago
Tony Robbins. And I, he, I [00:42:00] love him and I'm very grateful for him and his work cause it's helped me a lot. he had this line at that conference I had never heard before and it just, my brain exploded. I was like, what? And he said, the training never stops.
The training never stops if you want to continue to be a good partner to your spouse, if you want to be a good parent for your kids, you want to be a good leader at your company, you want to be a good person, you want to be healthy you don't get, you don't stop.
Every day you wake up and you try again and you must do that because we all fall short. We all screw up. We all have, weeks, maybe a month, maybe a quarter of your life where you're like, well, we're going to write that one off. That wasn't my best work. I'm going to try again. So that really resonated with me because I had never heard someone say
life was something that you would continue to work on.
It for as long as you're here.
Connie Fontaine: And you're going to keep getting those punches in [00:43:00] and that's one of the things that I thought was what happens at certain points in your life because you don't feel like you're going to get back up for a minute and yet they're going to keep coming. So you've got to be ready.
You've got to be resilient. You've got to learn from
them
Harry Cohen: I,
Rachel Hollis: Oh
Harry Cohen: no. Go.
Rachel Hollis: I was just going to say the book that the last book I wrote, which was in 2020
this idea that the most painful things that have ever happened to me was never the stuff I was afraid of.
Connie Fontaine: right
Rachel Hollis: anybody like me who has struggled with anxiety, who has made up every possible scenario about how it could all go wrong. It's never those that knock me on my butt. It's the stuff I didn't know was going to happen. And I actually think it's way more traumatic for us like a pandemic or.
Finding out that your partner has cheated or losing your job because it is so shocking to your system. It's way more traumatic to get through. [00:44:00] So it's those moments that you don't expect to be thrown off that scare us the most. And keep us from wanting to do something else. It's like, okay,
just stay here and stay safe and don't do anything, then maybe I won't rock the boat. And maybe nothing bad will
Connie Fontaine: hmm
Rachel Hollis: And one year goes by and five years goes by and 10 years goes by.
And then you realize you have lost all of this time trying to stay safe, which was impossible. I think, honestly, I don't know if you guys feel like that, like pandemic did that to a lot of people. And I sort of wonder if There aren't still some people who are frozen in the fear of that time period because they're like, I just don't want anything bad to happen again. Unfortunately, life is up and down and bad will find us. using that as your. Rationale for why you don't pursue more love, more joy, more hope, more opportunity, more faith.[00:45:00]
actually a plan that doesn't work. It will come back around no matter what. So if gosh, if the hard times are going to find you, let them find you, laughing, let them find you dancing.
Let them find you trying to build a company. Let them find you doing something worth doing
Connie Fontaine: Because they're gonna sneak up on you anyway So you might as well be having fun at the time
Harry Cohen: never think like that, which is helpful for me now, which is, Ooh, the good times, the
bad times are going to find you. I never even thought about bad times finding me. So,
um,
Connie Fontaine: Well and if anyone who hasn't read that book didn't see that coming I mean it came at a time where you had enough to talk
more
Rachel Hollis: Right
Connie Fontaine: and it was like, wait, when is this going to stop? And then you publish it. Did you publish right before COVID or did it go
Rachel Hollis: No, that came out during COVID. That
Connie Fontaine: That's what I thought
Rachel Hollis: 2020. And it was really intentional. I wanted to write something to speak to the time period that we were in.
I had lived through so [00:46:00] much. Unfortunately, so much trauma and grief in my life, I thought, well, I got some ideas about how you handle the hard things and I talk about, I know you guys read the new book, I talk about this in the new book that had told myself so many times, like, okay, well, this is the worst it can get. Okay. Well, this is the worst it can get. And. Honestly, I don't know what the worst, I hope, God, I hope, universe, I feel like I'm good. I have, but none of us know what tomorrow holds. So if you live in this place of fear and hope that staying here is going to keep you from encountering anything bad or hard, it's just, it's not ever going to work.
There's a beautiful essay, if you've never read it by,
Oh, who wrote the lion, the witch in a wardrobe.
Connie Fontaine: Oh C S Lewis C S
Rachel Hollis: C. S. Lewis has the most incredible essay that, and I hope I'm not misquoting, about when
like World War [00:47:00] II, or the atomic bomb. There's something to do with bombs. I'm sorry. Someone will fact check me here. But, he writes this essay about if a bomb is gonna drop on you, it find you at the pub with your friends, having a drink and telling a
Harry Cohen: Love that. I,
Rachel Hollis: dancing all night long. If a bomb is gonna find us, he's talking about the war. He's like, if we're going down, he's We will not go down in our house in a bunker hiding like let it find us living our life
you haven't read it, it's absolutely
gorgeous You should look it up
Connie Fontaine: We will make sure that's in the show notes because I want to make sure I read it
Harry Cohen: I like the image of dancing at your kid's wedding or being at the pub with your brothers or sisters,
it happen, but live this life magnificently. That's my goal. I want to live a magnificent life. One of the things that you said, and I think it's your intro to your [00:48:00] podcast or who you are, and it's one of the reasons that I found you delightful is that you are a seeker.
You described yourself as a seeker. Now, for those that don't know what do you mean a seeker of what? And not wisdom. You want wisdom. You don't want just info. You want wisdom and the wisdom that you seek. I seek to, and when I think about, well, doesn't everyone already know this? The answer is not only no, but it ain't the same river and we're not the same person.
So you get up and you get to do this again. I'm hearing things from you. differently than I've heard before, because I'm not the same person. And this is a different time than the last time then this morning, when I was listening to you.
Rachel Hollis: yes Yes, that is so important and I don't think we click into that
I have heard preachers, priests, [00:49:00] rabbis, teachers, personal development gurus, Oprah, like I've heard so many people say the same
Harry Cohen: Yep. Yep.
Rachel Hollis: 30 years. You'll hear it in a sermon, you'll hear it at a conference, you'll hear it, you'll read it in a book and then one day. On a particular random Tuesday, you will read that same line again and it will hit you like an arrow through the heart and you're like, Ooh, I needed that today.
Harry Cohen: right.
Rachel Hollis: sometimes I think we have to hear things over and over for it to click or to be the kind of person who can even take that information
Harry Cohen: This is the whole point. Every single morning, Rachel, I've been writing, I wrote this book and only wrote it five years ago, but. Be the sun, not the salt. One page chapters. Since January 1, I read the chapter based on the day. Today is be your best self, and I send out a note to 50 people. I was reflecting on it today because I need to hear it today.
Now that's, it's the 11th month of the year. I've been doing this over and over again, but it's different for [00:50:00] me. Be your best self is your chapter. What's working? Do more of that. What's working? Do more of what it looks like when you're at your best.
Connie Fontaine: your very
Harry Cohen: I can do that some more today.
Thank you very much.
Rachel Hollis: Yeah It's, I mean, I've, I think I've talked about Pareto's principle in the last three books that I've written because I just think it's such a wise way to look at life. I first learned it for business, and if your listeners aren't familiar it's this idea, and, I put the actual information about him.
He was an Italian
Harry Cohen: Economy. Yes. Alfredo Pareto. Tada. And
Rachel Hollis: 80 Percentt of the yield of his garden was coming from only 20 percent of the plants that were in his garden. And then he started to look at this, like, oh, wow. 80 percent of the land in this town is owned by only 20 percent of its citizens.
And oh, my business, 80 [00:51:00] percent of the revenue that I make or the profit that I make in my business is about 20 percent of my customers. So the 80 20 principle, and there's a million books on it that people can read, much wiser than I. But it really is such a smart way to look at your life. If you understand that 20 or 80 percent of the results you're getting good or bad are coming from 20 percent of your actions. Well, if you can identify the 20 percent of your actions that are giving you the results you want and just do more of those things. That's where we see, the revenue in your business explode. That's where we see your marriage flourish because you're leaning into those areas that really make a lot of impact for your partner.
That's where you see, wow I'm really making incredible progress on this project because I'm just doing the things that work.
Connie Fontaine: Work the best
Harry Cohen: little idea of focus on what's working so that you can do more of it allows [00:52:00] people. So it's not a bridge too far. No. Do what you're already doing. The magnificent things you're already doing, giving yourself grace, talking yourself with love and kindness, drinking enough water every morning, going to do all the self care things that we do.
Do that some more because that 20 percent it's so powerful. Let's just lean into it. Period. You exemplify that you practice that you believe
that you do that. And all of our listeners will hopefully go. You know what?
can do that.
Connie Fontaine: I think the format of the new book of questions. You
can actually start doing that too, Harry. We can start going through Rachel's book, chapter one on the first of the month,
chapter two because they're really, but we left, but it's a really good
process
because
Harry Cohen: of them. Connie, we would do
that. be simple
Connie Fontaine: We have a few
Harry Cohen: do. Done.
Connie Fontaine: I think it's
Rachel Hollis: how it goes
Connie Fontaine: we will But it is it's a good discipline for[00:53:00]
with the
Sun, Not the
Harry Cohen: hmm.
Connie Fontaine: The questions, work your way through this
answers is the power of what you've put in front of, well, not yet. It's coming out in January, right?
Rachel Hollis: Coming out in January um if you guys end up releasing this before January, I will say that the pre order gift for the book is so good and I'm so proud of it because I wrote it myself is a workbook that goes along with the questions because I don't know about your audience, but my audience, she loves a journal session.
She loves to unpack. So I really wanted to give them something that they could physically just sort of take a deep dive in and of themselves and figure out these questions. So, if you preorder the book before January 7th, you can go to my website, upload proof of receipt, and then you get this, like, 50 page PDF.
So you can use it in your iPad and fill it out, or you can print it out. But if you want to take a deep dive, it's totally free. And it's my gift to you jump [00:54:00] into the process.
Exactly
Connie Fontaine: times, but is the name of the book coming
see that it's on Amazon for pre order.
Rachel Hollis: Yeah it is there. Yeah, you
Connie Fontaine: right, great. Good,
Harry Cohen: We are honored. We are grateful. We are so pleased to have met you, to be a part of your ecosystem, your community.
And as a soon to be 70 year old man, I love being part of this community.
Connie Fontaine: here. You
your
Rachel Hollis: Oh my gosh. Okay.
Well, tell me your definition of heliotropic again. I know you did this when
Connie Fontaine: Mm hmm.
Rachel Hollis: but
your definition of this?
Harry Cohen: heliotropic means a positive energizer, a person who exudes the qualities that uplift you or anyone around him or her. [00:55:00] Generosity, compassion, kindness, curiosity. are just a few of the qualities that make someone heliotropic.
So,
Connie Fontaine: the way a
Rachel Hollis: yeah,
Connie Fontaine: and
Rachel Hollis: my husband,
Connie Fontaine: Your boo.
Rachel Hollis: my boo um, I, I referenced him a lot in the book, but he has been the most incredible gift in my life, not just for me, but for my children as well. He is so amazing. Is the most compassionate person. He's the most grace filled.
He's the, he's very calm. He's very centered. He's very grounded, which is beautiful for me because I tend to be sort of like fiery and loud and he's just a beautiful Ying to my Yang. And I think a lot of my growth is because I am in the presence of someone who is just a lot more [00:56:00] centered at times than I can be.
So, yeah, he's been incredible for
me.
Connie Fontaine: for you.
Harry Cohen: we do,
Rachel Hollis: I do too. Yeah.
Harry Cohen: I mean, this notion, Connie that we want to be that person. We want to be like that, that we're going to be like him. We want to surround ourselves with people like him.
Rachel Hollis: Yeah.
Harry Cohen: And to the extent that this podcast reinforces, Hey, come and join us in the, being the wonderful heliotropic person that you are more come and join us.
That's it. We hope that we can do in this world that we make help support anyone who's listening in or watching. I could do that. I could be,
I could do that. And you know what?
I'm gonna do that. From now on,
So Pleasure getting to know
Connie Fontaine: [00:57:00] in California. So enjoyed. Enjoyed meeting you today. Heliotropic people leave you feeling better than when they arrived. And you did that just that your warmth and
Comes oozing out of you.
So thank you for sharing that with us today
and your listeners. And thanks for letting us have an advanced copy of the book because we got excited. And hopefully all of our listeners are just
Rachel Hollis: Yeah. Thank you guys so much for the time. I really appreciate it.
Harry Cohen: our absolute pleasure.