Be the Sun, Not the Salt

#45 Mastering Your Mind: Ethan Kross on Emotional Regulation & Resilience

ā€¢ Connie Fontaine and Dr. Harry Cohen ā€¢ Episode 45

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Ever feel like your emotions are running the show instead of you? šŸ˜µā€šŸ’« In this episode of Be the Sun, Not the Salt, weā€™re thrilled to welcome Dr. Ethan Kross, world-renowned expert on emotional regulation and bestselling author of Chatter and Shift. Together with Dr. Harry Cohen and Connie Fontaine, Ethan dives deep into the science and practical tools for managing your inner voice, controlling emotional chatter, and harnessing your feelings instead of being overwhelmed by them.

What youā€™ll learn:

  • šŸ§  How managing your emotions boosts your thinking, performance, relationships, and health
  • šŸ—£ļø Why self-talk in the third person (ā€œEthan, you got this!ā€) can calm your mind and reduce stress
  • ā³ Additional simple, science-backed techniques like mental time travel, expressive writing, and sensory shifts to regulate emotions
  • šŸ¤ The power of emotional advisors and social proof to help you gain perspective and resilience
  • šŸ’” Why venting and rumination often backfire-and what to do instead

Harry and Connie share personal stories about putting Ethanā€™s tools into practice, from calming pre-dive nerves to leading with emotional steadiness in daily life. Whether youā€™re a leader, parent, or just someone who wants to feel less ā€œsaltyā€ and more in control, this episode is packed with actionable insights to help you be the sun, not the salt.

About Ethan Kross

Dr. Ethan Kross is a Professor in the University of Michiganā€™s Psychology Department and Ross School of Business, and director of the Emotion & Self-Control Lab. His groundbreaking research on emotion regulation and self-talk has been featured in The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, The New Yorker, and on major broadcasts like CBS Evening News and NPRā€™s Morning Edition. Ethan is the bestselling author of Chatter: The Voice in Our Head, Why It Matters, and How to Harness It and Shift: Managing Your Emotions So They Donā€™t Manage You.

Helpful Links

Tune in for this inspiring conversation that will change how you think about your emotions-and give you the tools to master your inner chatter for a healthier, happier life. šŸŒž

To explore the book, or for more episodes, information, tips and tools to live a more heliotropic life, visit us at bethesunnotthesalt.com and find us on Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn and TikTok.

Ethan Kross: [00:00:00] I mean, look, managing your emotions poorly, it affects your ability to think and perform. It affects your relationships, it affects your health and wellbeing. If we were to round up a hundred executives, teachers, you name it. I would predict that most of them, all of them, would single out one of those domains, if not more, as something they really care about, right?

Thinking and performance, relationships, health and wellbeing,

Connie Fontaine: All right.

Ethan Kross: those are the big three, your ability to manage your emotions directly affects all of them. So yeah. Let's start. Let's start. Tackling this directly, systematically, and from every level we can. 

Harry Cohen: That clip was the whole shebang. that was Ethan Kross, and I'll tell you a minute about who he is, but that literally articulates the whole reason that we can move from salt to sun, how to manage our emotions so they don't manage us. [00:01:00] And he gives so many beautiful examples and techniques, all of which are good. Use the ones that work for you, who doesn't wanna improve their relationships, improve their thinking and performance, and improve their health and wellbeing? That's right. So. let me just tell you who Ethan Kross is. He is one of the world's leading experts on emotional regulation, award-winning professor at the University of Michigan's Department of Psychology and its Ross school of business.

He's the director of the Emotion and self-Control laboratory and has participated in policy discussions at the White House, spoken at TED conferences in South by Southwest, and consulted with some of the world's top executives and organizations, and we are really lucky that he gave us this full hour To talk with us about all the different tools that we all can use to improve how to manage our emotions better. 

Connie Fontaine: That's right. I, I first became interested in Ethan when he released his book Chatter. Chatter came out during Covid. It was 2021. It's "Chatter, the voice in our head, why it matters," which he just talked about [00:02:00] in that clip and how to harness it.

And then Shift is his most recent book that just came out, "managing Your Emotions so they don't manage You." And how often do we let our emotions manage us? 

Harry Cohen: And that point is that there's so many different ways to manage our emotions more effectively. 

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm. 

Harry Cohen: Pick the ones that work for you as you listen to this, or you read either of his books, you can use what works for you.

Connie Fontaine: Yeah. That episode is chock full of lots of tools. I think that's what was interesting is the reminder too, is pick one, pick one, pick another one. There's so many that work and they work differently for each of us. 

Harry Cohen: And to your point, some don't work for, for you or me. And so Great. Don't do that. Do something else.

Connie Fontaine: Yeah. 

Harry Cohen: Um, yesterday I, I learned a, a new one, which is the almond is the size of your amygdala, which is what controls our emotions. So I was keeping an almond in my pocket to remind me, Harry, you got this. That's another technique I learned from him, from Chatter, [00:03:00] which is speaking to yourself and the third person in terms of self-talk is more effective than I got this, just thought it was great.

Connie Fontaine: Salted or unsalted. 

Harry Cohen: It happen to be a salted almond. But the point of this, all of these techniques to, to manage our emotions for all those good reasons, it is how we can become less salty. 

Connie Fontaine: Perfect. Well, let's give a listen. 

Harry Cohen: thank you. Ethan Cross. It has been, it has been quite some time since we first discovered you but we have been. You know, listening to you and reading both Chatter and Shift

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm.

Harry Cohen: listening to all of your interviews and podcasts from Andrew Huberman to, um, one you

Connie Fontaine: The one you feed? Yeah.

Harry Cohen: the one you

Connie Fontaine: So many.

Harry Cohen: It's been so fun

Ethan Kross: am sorry. I'm sorry.

Connie Fontaine: No, no. this has been good. Like we've, we know you from Chatter, first of all. So that's, you know, the, the experience goes way back and [00:04:00] obviously Harry's got his connection with U of M two, so you're part of our Michigan crew that's come in to, to spread the, spread the wealth here, wonderful. 

Harry Cohen: your work has really helped so many people, me personally, and the people that we speak to. 

Connie Fontaine: I wanna tell our listeners, this is about emotional regulation. we know you're gonna add a lot of value to our listeners, and that's part of why we're so excited. So be the Sun, not the Salt is the name of the podcast. I don't know if you've seen the book, you have.

Great. I would love to hear your thoughts first on how that relates to the work that you do around emotional regulation.

Ethan Kross: I think the salty side of life is, uh, emotion dysregulation and.[00:05:00] 

Harry Cohen: Totally.

Ethan Kross: I mean, you know, both for the self and others. I was just talking to, um, a group of people about, uh, the idea of emotional contagion and how I think it's so easy for us to forget that our own emotions very easily affect the emotions of all those around us.

They spill over. So, you know, emotion regulation isn't only a solitary enterprise, it's also one that is fundamentally social. And so, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm not, I was gonna make a bad joke about salting the streets of Michigan. That's the only context in which I'm pro salt, right? It's bad for your health and I think it's bad for your emotional life too.

Um, so I think the more we can do to figure out how to get into that sunny zone,

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm.

Ethan Kross: And as both of you know, it's not always easy. And this is where I think science can help us. And it's where, [00:06:00] uh, practitioners like yourself and shows like this that help spread the science,

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm.

Ethan Kross: I think serve such a, a wonderful, uh, service for the world.

Harry Cohen: I appreciate

Connie Fontaine: agree.

Harry Cohen: saying that. I was re-listening to both Shift. And chatter. 'cause I forget stuff after I read it. Ethan blows my mind. I read stuff and

Ethan Kross: You are not alone.

Harry Cohen: It just, it's like, oh yeah. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Why

Ethan Kross: Well, and and that's, and, and, and that's why, that's why one-offs, you know, which are so common nowadays where you listen once or you go to a talk. They're okay. You get something out of it, but not nearly as much as if you commit to a, a sustainable practice, um, talking to folks like yourself or making a commitment to coming back to material over and over.

So yeah, your mind isn't the only siv I guarantee you.

Harry Cohen: I so appreciate that. I wrote this [00:07:00] thing and, and I now read it. single day, one minute, the chapter of the day just to re Oh. Right, that's what I was talking. So that I can then try my best to practice it and be reminded again. And thank you for saying that. That's what we have to do. Be reminded.

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm.

Ethan Kross: Yeah, absolutely.

Connie Fontaine: Ethan, I think one of the things that I, I took away, right away from some of your early work too, was fact that we can all manage these emotions. Yes, you can be in a difficult situation. You can have be under very tough life circumstances, but you can choose. You can choose to start to make progress towards those by taking some of those negative emotions. Learning about the fact that fear can be okay. Um, fear can give you information that you then choose to do something with. And maybe you could talk a little bit about that, because I think there's a lot of listeners that are gonna, we all do it. I think Harry, and I like to not exclude ourselves in this, we learn from everyone that, that joins us.

So could you share a little bit about that and [00:08:00] using those negative emotions in that way?

Ethan Kross: Yeah, so I'm, I'm a proponent of the belief that all of the emotions we experience are, are helpful. They provide us with information about our life circumstances, useful information that we can use to make good choices. That's true of the negative emotions we experience too. Take the big three. Anger, sadness, anxiety.

Few people I know relish bathing themselves in those experiences. And bathing might not be the right word, bathing might not be, um, what you wanna do, but certainly the ability to sometimes experience those kinds of emotions, they can be helpful. Anxiety alerts us to potential threats that we. Often need to prepare for anger signals that your view of the world has been transgressed in some way.

And guess what? There's something you can do to fix it. Sadness. You experience a loss, you can't bring it back. All right, let's figure out how we're gonna get in on our lives. Get on with our lives. All of those [00:09:00] emotions serve a function when they are experienced in the right proportions. The big challenge that so many of us face, and I say, I'm using us.

Purposely here. Me too. At times, sometimes these emotions are, are, are triggered too loud or they last too long, and when that happens, they push us into the salty zone. They suck a lot of what the joy out of, out of living. Right? Because we then become, um, impaired in terms of our ability to think and perform optimally.

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm.

Ethan Kross: relational problems. Our health can suffer too. And so the real challenge is. You have this capacity to feel these different things and they can be helpful, but how do you keep those responses constrained? How do you prevent them from blowing up in ways that blow your life up?

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm.

Ethan Kross: and, and that's where science can provide a guide.

That's where the tools come into play,

Harry Cohen: we were talking this morning [00:10:00] literally about that point and that times outta 10 people get salty when their emotional regulation is dysregulated, when they are hijacked. And go down the dark road and

Connie Fontaine: Right.

Harry Cohen: in particular, to your first point about emotional contagion. When leaders are salty, when leaders allow themselves to get taken down the dark road, can really do a lot of damage to people and they don't quite realize the damage they do. I love that

Ethan Kross: That's right.

Harry Cohen: and we wanna, we wanna help people.

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm.

Ethan Kross: That's right. And I think, so step one is just becoming aware of how this works. I think the,

Harry Cohen: That's,

Ethan Kross: our emotional literacy, our collective emotional literacy is pretty, pretty darn low. Um, you know, I, I, I often remark, you might have heard me say this before, I find it amazing that all of us have been experiencing emotions since before we were born.

Like we, we experience emotions in [00:11:00] the womb, and yet when I ask people to for volunteers, hey. What's an emotion? You wanna come up here and just define it for everyone. Most people, virtually everyone in the audience, thousands of people over the course of lots of presentations are reluctant

Connie Fontaine: Okay.

Ethan Kross: avail themselves of that opportunity.

Harry Cohen: Why do

Ethan Kross: That's, that's strike, that's striking to you? 'cause I think they don't, it's, it's an experience that we. We are deeply, deeply familiar with, but never stop to think about what's actually happening underneath the hood.

Harry Cohen: Mm-hmm.

Ethan Kross: What does it actually mean to feel an emotion? You know, this goes back to where we started when we're talking about anger and anxiety.

We often talk about those states as uniform evils, right? Strive to rid yourself. Rid yourself of anger, anxiety, and sadness. I have a book somewhere in my bookshelf that's called like The Toxic Emotions, toxic, well, [00:12:00] guess what? I'm probably not as successful in life, and I don't say life. I'm not talking about my success as a scientist or an author.

I'm saying my success as a human being as a parent. If I don't have the capacity to experience a little anxiety or anger or sadness, the, the most powerful, um, reminder of this that I find really resonates with people is to just have 'em think about physical pain. Right. Who here likes physical pain? I loathe physical pain.

I just came back from the dentist literally a couple minutes ago. I need a procedure. The first thing I asked is how much pain is it gonna cost and what can you do to reduce it? Um, so, but I, but I understand its significance and I'm not gonna get rid of it. There are people born into the world every year.

They can't experience pain due to a genetic blip.

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm.

Ethan Kross: Their pain receptors don't operate the way ours do. When those people get their hands caught in the stove,

Harry Cohen: [00:13:00] Yeah.

Ethan Kross: they don't have any cue to tell 'em to pull it away. Those people end up dying younger

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm.

Ethan Kross: than those of us who can experience pain. So number one, if you experience negative emotions at times, there is absolutely nothing wrong with you.

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm.

Ethan Kross: There's everything right with you. That is the first, I hope, liberating. Aha. People take away from our conversation. Number two, if you don't want to keep experiencing those negative states, if you find them activating too loudly or lasting too long, there are things you can do about it. You can in fact shift how you're feeling.

Sometimes it can be really easy to do it. Sometimes it can be really hard.

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm.

Ethan Kross: As a general rule, the bigger the situation, the more there is at stake. The more challenging it can be to shift our emotions, but you can do it. And really, really believing that [00:14:00] deeply to your, in your core is the fundamental first step for managing your emotions more effectively.

Harry Cohen: I reread, I reread that point about the belief that my ability to regulate my emotions can predict my success to do so. It was, to your point, liberating and oh, right. I've gotta remind people for those people who think, no, no, I'm good. I, I've reached my level of ability to manage my emotions, I'm not gonna get any better. Well, that belief will guarantee that you won't. And the

That's right. That you can, will allow you to manage them better. And everybody wins. You win, and the people around you win. Let's get that into the bloodstream of the world, into people's

Connie Fontaine: Right.

Harry Cohen: If they listen to this podcast and I go, wow, you mean I can get better at managing my motions?

Yes, and the

Connie Fontaine: But so

Harry Cohen: can is

Connie Fontaine: yeah. [00:15:00] And we were talking about this earlier too, Harry, that what if you have somebody, and I, I don't know if you've experienced this personally or you're gonna give somebody advice, somebody who is bathing or what I call, I was calling, soaking in a negative emotion and didn't, and believed it was normal and that they shouldn't have to come out of it.

Do you have, how can you trigger, how can you help somebody realize this, this ability, we can make a difference with this managing this emotion.

Ethan Kross: Well, I, you know, there, there, there are two core ways that immediately come to mind. Um, the first is give them the experience

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm.

Ethan Kross: Shifting their emotions and the story I tell in, in shift, that's how this belief was changed. So I tell the story of these, um, these individuals who are phobic of snakes, like would have nightmares about snakes and couldn't go in the garden or parks, like really significant clinical phobias and through, um, an intervention.

I ended up after a [00:16:00] few sessions having like snakes draped over their shoulders and realizing nothing bad was gonna happen. And so that actually gave them the experience of, Hey, I can change.

Connie Fontaine: Yeah.

Ethan Kross: once they had that experience, it was like a flip was switched. Now they could, um, now they could all of a sudden change in lots of other ways.

So that can, so that's sometimes harder to do than, than, um. We hope. But I think if you can do that for someone, if you can illustrate for them how to shift their emotions and there's some easy things you can do, like put on some, some music that shifts their emotions, right? Like get them to have a wonderful sensory experience, distract them in a positive and engaging way.

Take their mind off and get 'em to laugh. Point out how that's shifting them. The other thing you can do, and these are not mutually exclusive, is, Utilize the concept of social proof.

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm.

Ethan Kross: I find it quite remarkable that when [00:17:00] people are struggling, and this is true Like across the board there's this almost reflexive. Desire to find out and has anyone else gone through what I'm going through? Like people just wanna know that they are not alone

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm.

Ethan Kross: in the challenges that they're facing.

They almost never are.

Connie Fontaine: Right.

Ethan Kross: Number one.

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm.

Ethan Kross: So once you provide people with examples of others who have not only experienced the challenges that they're dealing with, but also persevered through them,

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm.

Ethan Kross: you're giving them what we call social proof. And that can also be helpful for allowing people to realize that, hey, it is possible to feel differently about this.

So I open, I open Shift with a story about my grandmother and grandfather surviving the Holocaust. And, um, you know, as I, I've commented publicly before, there [00:18:00] are times when I, I get challenged in some way, whether it be silly or more significant, and it feels all consuming. Oh my God, how am I gonna get, oh, what if this happens?

What if that, you know, all this stuff. And one of my go-to approaches for sifting my emotions in that circumstance is. I jump into what I call my mental time travel machine. I set it to go back to the 1940s and I get out and I hang out with my grandparents

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm.

Ethan Kross: just for a little bit, and that instantly broadens my perspective.

It, and like I think to myself like, you are worrying about this Ethan,

Connie Fontaine: Right. Compared to,

Ethan Kross: these two had their family slaughtered and were homeless for three years. Like, come on. You know, that's a shifter right there.

Connie Fontaine: I love that.

Harry Cohen: for people who want to read about grandmother, it's an unbelievably beautiful story [00:19:00] this day, that's how I tell people about

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm.

Harry Cohen: you. And why is a crooked letter, and it was wonderful to hear you use that. And you just did it again. You, you know, you did distant self-talk with Ethan. Come on. That's one I picked up during Covid from Chatter. Harry, you got this. It's one of those go-tos that I can use.

Ethan Kross: So easy.

Harry Cohen: It's

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm.

Harry Cohen: I have a question. We are preparing all of our questions, you know, in honor of Passover. What are the four questions I have for you? Um. What,

Ethan Kross: I like that. I like that theme.

Harry Cohen: what habits do you regularly engage in that make your emotional regulation easy?

Ethan Kross: Hmm. Well, um,

Harry Cohen: I,

Ethan Kross: okay, I'm pausing because there's not, it, it, it really depends [00:20:00] on, let me, let me, let me explain the groundwork I've done to make emotion regulation easier.

Harry Cohen: Good.

Ethan Kross: it's still can, sometimes it can be hard, um, but it's always possible and it always gets done. So number one. I've done work ahead of time to, to build out, if then plans, if this happens, then I'm gonna use these one or three or five tools.

So the moment I detect a, an emotion, you know, uh, striking that I don't want to experience this intensely, or this too, you know, for too long, I'll use distant self talk. All right, Ethan, you got this, man, you're gonna be okay. You'll be fine. Um, so I use distant self-talk. I use mental time travel in two directions back grandparents.

I go forward. How are you gonna feel about this when you're a grandpa, Ethan? I.

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm.

Ethan Kross: And I mix in distance, self-talk.

Connie Fontaine: Yes.

Ethan Kross: Um, so those are my go-tos. I also then have another layer, which is if it [00:21:00] really feels like that's not taking the edge off, then I'll also call some of my chatter advisors up, or my emotional advisors, people who are in my life.

Um, they're not necessarily clinically credentialed, but they do two things. They listen and learn and empathize, and then they help me broaden my perspective. They help me see that big picture. Um, most of the time that's all I need to do to, to, to weather it. If it's a really big, um, feels really big, the problem.

And that happens every now and again. Then I'll do something called expressive writing, uh, as well, which I find can be very useful. So what expressive writing involves is just sitting down with a journal and letting yourself go for about 10 to 15 minutes, not worrying about punctuation or grammar and, um, just, just working through the experience in writing that you're dealing with.

And what's, what's wonderful about that science-based tool is [00:22:00] it gives a structure. To your experience. When we're in our heads, there are no guardrails that constrain how we think. Like I'm sure everyone here has at times started pinballing all over the place

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm.

Ethan Kross: in ways that have taken you to places that you didn't want to go and likely wouldn't even want to admit out loud to another person because they're so, you know, oftentimes when you start getting lost in, in chatter, um, sometimes people Don't even wanna articulate out loud because it seems so preposterous when they do. Like, really, that's what you're worried?

That's what you're thinking. Come on. So writing. The act of writing prevents us from doing a lot of that because when you write number one, you write typically in sentences. So there's a structure to the sentence.

Connie Fontaine: Hmm.

Ethan Kross: Um, and then one of the things you learn about writing, when you're telling a [00:23:00] story, which is effectively what you're writing, there's a middle, I mean a beginning, a middle, and an end right in your head.

There's no end sometimes to. To our chatter or, or emotional problems. And so, so I'll, I'll reserve writing. if I really need to bring down the hammer, so to speak, and, and then typically that works. How about the two of you?

Harry Cohen: oh

Connie Fontaine: Oh, that's a great question.

Harry Cohen: I mean, I use distance self-talk. I

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm.

Harry Cohen: I use the, uh, my green room people to give me

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm.

Harry Cohen: I. I exercise. Um, those are my go-to always get outside, um, talk to somebody and talk to myself. in the third person that's, and I

Connie Fontaine: Yeah.

Harry Cohen: you. I always

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm.

Harry Cohen: awe on nature,

Connie Fontaine: The third person for sure.

Harry Cohen: I mean, and

Connie Fontaine: Yeah.

Harry Cohen: about it ever since I read it, and, and I use

Ethan Kross: Yeah.

Harry Cohen: I also don't do [00:24:00] some stuff that I learned is not effective. I don't. start eating. Uh, I don't vent. 'cause we both know venting is, you know, uh, not helpful. I don't engage in, you know, you talked about this after bomb threat or the, the, the threat at your school. I don't engage in gossipy. Um, don't you hate it when, and you know what?

I help, you know what else I can't stand. Um, what I don't do is just as important as what I do do. And I got those from you as well. I.

Ethan Kross: Yeah. Well, I'm glad you pointed those out because, um, you're absolutely right. Um, so much suffering comes from people. Trying to help themselves or help other people, but engaging in practices that we know push them in the wrong direction. So venting is one great, great example. Venting makes you feel good about the person you're venting to or with.

But you leave [00:25:00] the conversation, you're just as upset, if not even more. Um, you know, that's a big negative. A lot of people think, quite frankly, that worrying about their problems is gonna help them. Right? Because if I keep thinking about it, well then maybe I'll find a solution for it. I,

Connie Fontaine: Yeah.

Ethan Kross: I, I've sometimes fantasized about.

If there are a way, if I was a more sophisticated thinker, maybe I could come up with an, a way of bottling the collective energy that is spent on worrying,

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm.

Ethan Kross: like across humanity. Like we would not, we would solve the, the, like the, the, the puzzle of renewable energy. Right? Can you imagine? I mean, it's just remarkable,

Harry Cohen: so pointless. It's,

Connie Fontaine: It

Ethan Kross: pointless.

Connie Fontaine: it's not going away. And you, you mentioned Harry, you talked about venting and so you were asking us, Ethan, how we, how we cope and, and manage our emotions. For me, some of the same ones as Harry mentioned. But one of the things I'm definitely more on, lean on the [00:26:00] social, it's a couple things.

Environment. I gotta get up and change my environment. And I think the part of the reason I like the way you laid out some of these tools are, some of them are just easy.

Harry Cohen: Mm-hmm.

Connie Fontaine: it's, I think you mentioned music, sound, smell, like the sensory kind of shift, which really can make a big difference, especially if you're by yourself and it's a minimal thing.

You're

Ethan Kross: I.

Connie Fontaine: kind of get your head around, um, getting up and changing rooms, going outside, all of that. But the venting, I'm a social, I. I rely on my crew. Um, I have a tendency to have that venting is fine. And what I love about, and I'd like you to talk a little bit about this. It is fine. Yeah. As long as you don't end it that way.

And I think I'd love for you to share a

Ethan Kross: That's right.

Connie Fontaine: our

Ethan Kross: Yeah. So.

Connie Fontaine: so important to wrap that conversation in a different way.

Ethan Kross: So venting is, you know, uh, I talk about the hazards of venting and the importance of having an advisory board of chatter and emotional advisors in both books. Um, there were only a few things that I talked about in both books, distance, self-talk,

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm.

Ethan Kross: emotional advisors, and I did it [00:27:00] purposely because they are, I think, such fundamental and fundamentally important concepts.

Interestingly, it with both books though, um. I think some of the biggest take homes have surrounded the venting ideas and also, some of the most important, conversations have surrounded in terms of really getting people to understand it because so many people want to vent. There's this seductive allure

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm.

Ethan Kross: exists to venting and the way that I make sense of it, and the way scientists have is.

As human beings, we have two fundamental needs that we're trying to satisfy when we're struggling. Number one, we've got these social and emotional needs. We wanna know that we're not alone.

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm.

Ethan Kross: We wanna know that our, our tribe has our back. We've got social support. We've got that connection, venting, sharing what happened to you and getting someone else to say, oh my God, [00:28:00] that's terrible.

I went through something like that too, and it was awful. 

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm. 

Ethan Kross: That helps address those social and emotional needs. That's the first thing that often happens in a conversation about a problem. Most people stop there or they never stop. They just keep going over and over.

Connie Fontaine: Yes.

Ethan Kross: Even after they realize that they're not alone, they realize that they have support and empathy from others.

The key is once you get that connection, the emotional social connection,

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm.

Ethan Kross: now let's shift. We still have a problem we need to deal with, or we think we have a problem we need to deal with. So how do we deal with it?

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm.

Ethan Kross: And that's when the other person you're talking to, they are in a prime position to help you broaden your perspective.

All right. Well, you know, um, Connie, I, I, I, I went through something remarkably similar and you know what? I found out it was nothing.

Connie Fontaine: Yeah.

Ethan Kross: just went away.

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm.

Ethan Kross: I had to resist the temptation to [00:29:00] keep thinking about it,

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm.

Ethan Kross: poof, disappeared,

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm.

Ethan Kross: or I seem to remember, Connie, that you went through something similar couple of couple of months ago.

How'd you deal with that?

Connie Fontaine: Right?

Ethan Kross: Connie, what would you tell me if I was struggling with this issue? Seriously, what would you tell? What would you tell me? I.

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm.

Ethan Kross: So there are lots of things we can do in our advisory role to help shift the other person's perspective. Now, you said something else earlier that I just wanna come back to.

You talked about the simplicity

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm.

Ethan Kross: the tools we've been talking about. I completely agree. I. As I, I like to tell people there's a lot of complexity behind the science that has been

Connie Fontaine: Right.

Ethan Kross: to understand how these tools work. What I love about them. You don't need a degree in anything to use them. You just need to know what they are.

In some ways it's similar to physical fitness. Um, you know, like you go to a gym, there are lots of these wacky, crazy machines with pictures of [00:30:00] biomechanical. Just muscles isolated and ligaments and tendons being used. All you need to know is like, push this way,

Connie Fontaine: right.

Ethan Kross: that way.

Connie Fontaine: Right.

Ethan Kross: And then you gotta practice and figure out which tools work for you.

It's the same thing when it comes to mental fitness, but you need to know what those tools are and you need to practice them. And right now in our culture,

Harry Cohen: Yeah.

Ethan Kross: we don't. Do either of those very well

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm.

Ethan Kross: of sharing that information with others.

Connie Fontaine: No, I think you're right. I mean, it's recognizing the power of these emotions, first of all, and then deciding I'm gonna do something about them and now here's some tools and I'm gonna practice. And I think if,

Ethan Kross: Yep.

Connie Fontaine: that logic, you're gonna be a happier person and those around you are gonna be a lot happier for that as well.

Ethan Kross: Emotional contagion. Don't, don't forget,

Connie Fontaine: It's key.

Ethan Kross: I.

Harry Cohen: your work, this work, let's get more people

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm.

Harry Cohen: more of that. To [00:31:00] practice, identify, use, talk about highlight. Every chance we

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm.

Harry Cohen: there you go. You just did it. Well done. You can do that. It's

Ethan Kross: That's right.

Harry Cohen: too far. It's not something theoretical. I have to learn how to do practice.

No, no. All you gotta do is say, use your own name when you talk to yourself. Oh, I could do that. I

Ethan Kross: Yeah.

Harry Cohen: easy. I mean, what are the easiest, lowest effort tools? You, you made a point. People are lazy.

Connie Fontaine: A couple

Harry Cohen: Make it easy for us. Don't make it hard when you say the word practice. Oh my god.

Exercise.

Connie Fontaine: so.

Harry Cohen: for a walk. You don't have

Ethan Kross: Yeah.

Harry Cohen: You don't even have to do anything. Just go for a walk. The heaviest weight at the gym is the front door. Just go, just get on

Ethan Kross: Yeah, well the, and the good news is there are lots of easy things. So, um, you know, music is, is is another one that, um, I was late in the game to, to stumble on. I've, of course been listening to music my whole [00:32:00] life, but never really realized I could do it strategically. So when I wasn't feeling great, I could put on the right playlist and have it push my mood in a particular direction.

That's about as easy as you can get.

Connie Fontaine: Right.

Ethan Kross: Um, a lot of people intuitively understand this and sometimes abuse this. So Harry, you mentioned you don't eat when you're upset. Some people will emotional eating, like they will leverage their senses to shift their emotions temporarily. In a harmful direction by, you know, eating processed foods and, and, and ice cream and things like that.

Nothing against eating ice cream, by the way, but you just don't wanna, you don't wanna keep doing it over and over.

Connie Fontaine: is an

Ethan Kross: Um,

Connie Fontaine: That's all.

Ethan Kross: that's right, that's right. You know, sometimes look, uh, a scoop of ice cream

Connie Fontaine: Yep.

Ethan Kross: you're feeling down, if that's gonna make you feel better and you could cut it off there. I don't think anyone, anyone, like died younger because of a one scoop.

But if we go to the gallon and [00:33:00] then, you know, get four more of those and just keep piling through different story, so the, the senses sounds, touch, affectionate, touch. If you've got. Loved ones near you. Uh, a hug, an embrace. I mean, it's, you know, it's so interesting when I talk about this to different groups, whether it be like students at Michigan or, or, or, you know, corporate executives.

I always have to be careful when I talk about touch for obvious reasons in the professional context, but. We are a tactile species. We all know this fundamentally to be true. Like we embrace babies when they're born into this world.

Connie Fontaine: Inhale.

Ethan Kross: That desire to be touched in an affectionate way. I mean, that's another shifter.

So with my kids, like my, my, I have two daughters, like, I'll, I'll just go over them. I'll just kind of like, you know, put my hand on their shoulder or rub their back or give 'em a hug. And, that's me regulating them.

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm.

Ethan Kross: Right. [00:34:00] Um, this is a very primitive way that we can regulate one another.

Connie Fontaine: Yeah.

Ethan Kross: So, um, so the senses are powerful tools, um, you know, mental time travel and, and distance self-talk.

Talking yourself in the second or third person, how am I gonna feel about this next week? How, how, you know, how does this compare to what bubby and Papa went through? Those are powerful shifters. Those are also easy, easy to use. Um. I don't think going for a walk in the green space is a hard thing to do.

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm.

Ethan Kross: I think that's pretty easy that. Very consistent. You know, after I stumbled on that research, I changed the way I walked to work each day.

Harry Cohen: Hmm.

Ethan Kross: I made sure to take a slightly longer but more tree-lined, um, path to work because of that, right? So I will force myself often to just go for a walk in our arboretum or wherever in Ann Arbor and, and that makes [00:35:00] a.

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm. Big

Ethan Kross: can make a huge difference. That's easy too. Um, you know, so these are all simple things you could do, even sitting down to meditate, you know, like meditation and expressive writing are probably two of the more effortful science-based tools that I've talked about. Focusing on your breath, for example, or a mantra for 10 to 20 minutes, or writing for 10 to 20 minutes, but it's 10 to 20 minutes.

Think for a second about how much time you're spending.

Connie Fontaine: Renu?

Ethan Kross: You know, in, in, in turbulence mode. How much time? I'm gonna ask you, Connie, think back to the last time you experienced some chatter and you do it to,

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm.

Ethan Kross: um, Harry, like how much time

Connie Fontaine: Oh.

Ethan Kross: you spend

Connie Fontaine: Too

Ethan Kross: that state?

Connie Fontaine: Definitely.

Ethan Kross: than 10 minutes?

Harry Cohen: Oh yeah.

Connie Fontaine: I, I have done more than 10 minutes, and it's, and I think the other point that you make is once you get done with that writing exercise, you're probably already feeling a little bit better. If you're ruminating for 10 minutes, you're not feeling better by the end usually.[00:36:00] 

Ethan Kross: Well, it's not over. I'm saying, you know, that's the thing. It's ongoing. I mean, um, when I do some, some of the workshops I do on this, when people, um, I. I asked them to think about an experience that they've experienced some, some chatter about. Um, and then I, and then I asked them, one of the questions I asked them to try is think about how, how long did you spend in that state?

Some people report being in that state of chatter about what event for years.

Connie Fontaine: Yeah, I'm sure.

Ethan Kross: right. Like.

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm.

Ethan Kross: about that for a second.

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm.

Ethan Kross: about 10 minutes of writing now. The writing and, and let's be clear to everyone here. I don't, I'm not in the business of magic pills. I don't think any of us are.

I think it is, uh, an insult to other people's lived experience to suggest that we have things, we have tools that are automatically gonna take. Devastating life [00:37:00] experiences and turn them into birthday parties with cupcakes and wonderful other treats. What these tools do, what they have the potential to is to turn the volume on those negative experiences down and shorten how long they last.

Right? So, you know, you take medicine for an illness, it you take an antibiotic, right? It doesn't just magically take everything away. It slowly gets you better, but it gets you better. That's the hope here. That's what we're striving for.

Harry Cohen: I love that you put it in those terms. I was having dinner with a friend on Saturday night telling her about this interview, our podcast with her, with you, and I was telling her that. The point of regulating your emotions is so they don't obstruct us. So they

Connie Fontaine: Right.

Harry Cohen: literally prevent us from living healthy and fulfilling lives,

Ethan Kross: I.

Harry Cohen: it's available to us. This particular [00:38:00] person sometimes is obstructed by her anxiety or fears, you know, it could be anything else. It could be depression, it could be discussed. All of them are.

Connie Fontaine: Yeah, but.

Harry Cohen: but the key is we don't have to be obstructed by it. And with these tools, whichever ones work for us, use them and perfect them through the laboratory of your own lived experience, the way you put it, see what works, and then do more of that.

Connie Fontaine: Yeah, what works for you? Because it's gonna be different. And I think what I love about the practice, because I know I'm an active practicer of all these things to become a better person. And when I practice what's happened with emotions, whether it's my own personal emotions or or working with other people, is it gets so much easier.

The amount of time I'm aggravated or ruminate over my own, you know, personal emotions gets shorter. It gets also less extreme because the better you get at it with that practice, it just gets a little easier each [00:39:00] time.

Ethan Kross: That's right. That's right. You know, some people sometimes, um, tell me that, um, they can almost even see.

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm.

Ethan Kross: Themselves at a fork in the road when something negative happens and when they understand how emotions work in these tools, it's like they just make the decision, no, I'm not going down that path.

Harry Cohen: And

Ethan Kross: Ethan's gonna go down this other one.

Harry Cohen: a

Connie Fontaine: exactly.

Harry Cohen: it. Like, you know what I've always said about being the son of the salt? In a split second. If you can get to I'm not going there. I have the thought. I don't need to say it

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm.

Harry Cohen: feeling okay. Okay. You can cultivate it, you can work at it. No, no, just. Now, I'm not going there.

Harry, don't go there. Can

Connie Fontaine: This,

Harry Cohen: what he

Ethan Kross: That's right.

Connie Fontaine: this time.

Ethan Kross: That's right.

Harry Cohen: in that split

Ethan Kross: That's right.

Harry Cohen: in the

Connie Fontaine: Right.

Harry Cohen: can get, just imagine if we can get more people to realize, you mean I have that power? Yes, you do.

Connie Fontaine: Okay.

Harry Cohen: Every single time. Now, sometimes you're gonna lose it. You're gonna get salty. [00:40:00] You can just then go, oh, I know what to do.

I can do the next right thing. Forgive yourself then see what you can do. That might work. I

Connie Fontaine: Right.

Ethan Kross: That's right,

Harry Cohen: Okay, great.

Ethan Kross: that's right. And, and, and, you know, you know, you mentioned, um, Connie that time and, and, and Harry you said. Sometimes we fumble. We all fumble at times, you know, and I think, again, I, I've like talked to lots of people about this stuff. I have yet to meet someone who doesn't stumble at times.

One of the most interesting discoveries I had while researching and writing shift was to do a dive into the history of emotion regulation and you know, the best way to sum up that history. For Nonstory fans is we've been struggling with this very topic we are talking about right now, likely since the dawn of humanity,

Harry Cohen: Mm-hmm.

Ethan Kross: some of the first writing samples [00:41:00] ever discovered.

Talked about difficulties regulating emotions.

Connie Fontaine: Oh really?

Ethan Kross: What is widely believed to be the first surgical procedure ever invented? Carving holes in people's skulls used in part to help people manage their emotions. So this is just part of the human condition right now. The Buddha talked about it, right? Like life is suffering sometimes.

What we've learned are there are things you could do to minimize that suffering and there are lots of things. And if, if that's not a message that is filled with hope, I don't know what is

Harry Cohen: So that sentence, there are lots of ways that we can mitigate, minimize, reduce suffering for ourselves and others. Sign us up,

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm.

Harry Cohen: let us invite more people to this journey Who'd like to reduce suffering for yourself

Ethan Kross: I.

Harry Cohen: Come this way. so

Ethan Kross: That's right.

Harry Cohen: it guys. So we're on that mission together.

Ethan Kross: [00:42:00] That is the mission. And you know, the, I am so frequently asked, Hey, what's the one thing you should do to manage your emotions? Um, people wanna know, I get it.

Connie Fontaine: Fix it.

Ethan Kross: There, there, there isn't one thing. And you know, when I think about this question. I think that should be liberating for folks to know as well, because I, I will often speak to folks who tell me, you know, Ethan, I, I've tried meditating or, or I've tried doing this, and, uh, it doesn't help me.

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm.

Ethan Kross: lots of other people, and then people start to think like, what, wait a second, what's wrong with me?

Connie Fontaine: Right.

Ethan Kross: seems to help everyone else we know. Different tools, different people, different situations. So you know, it's, that should be something like that fills people with hope because it means if you've tried things and they haven't worked, don't stop trying.

'cause there are other things you can do.

Harry Cohen: I

Connie Fontaine: Yeah. We suggest someone will say to us, and I think we've learned [00:43:00] this too ourselves, if you're trying to start being a little more sun and a little less salt, where do you start? And what we always say is, you, you go back to when you know you were at your best and just do more of that. Um, is there a similar reference point you can give people, you know, you, you know, you need to get better at, at emotional regulation?

Where do you start?

Ethan Kross: Well, you start a Hopefully you already have the belief that you can get better. And if you're interested in starting, I would imagine you do start familiarizing yourself with the tools that are out there.

Harry Cohen: Yeah.

Ethan Kross: Start just read about one tool a day, one tool a day. You know, you know, Harry, you said you read one chapter or one paragraph a day.

Like these tools are really, a lot of them, very simple. Um, a lot of them are listed online. If you look at the back of Chatter, there's an appendix that lists 'em all. They're in shift. They're other tools in shift, one tool a day, and then just give it a shot. Give it a few times, and if it works, keep using it.

If not, move on to something else.

Harry Cohen: I

Connie Fontaine: make sure in the [00:44:00] show notes that we make it easy for listeners too. We'll do some of that. 'cause we've, we've summed up a lot of the work from Chatter and Shift, so. Great. Great point. Thank you.

Ethan Kross: Great.

Harry Cohen: and I love that you put it in those simple terms. 'cause we believe the simpler and easier it is

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm. The better.

Harry Cohen: to understand, get, and do the easier it'll be for like, oh, I could do that, I could do

Ethan Kross: Well, yeah.

Harry Cohen: That's what

Ethan Kross: Well, you know, you, you, you, you both know we're, we're all pretty lazy. That's. That's how we roll as a species. So the easier it is, the better.

Harry Cohen: It's not an indictment. We

Ethan Kross: Nope,

Harry Cohen: it easy for people so that they do it, and

Ethan Kross: that's right. That's right.

Harry Cohen: that exercise is what's the best exercise to do, the one you do,

Connie Fontaine: Yeah.

Ethan Kross: That's right,

Connie Fontaine: something,

Ethan Kross: that's right.

Harry Cohen: you know?

Ethan Kross: And depending on who you are. There. Some people can't do squats 'cause their knees don't, don't cooperate. I don't personally like running. I prefer yoga. I mean, I'm making [00:45:00] stuff up, but I like 'em both. Yeah. So

Connie Fontaine: You know, Ethan, you mentioned your daughters before and how you can also as a parent, help regulate their emotions through different actions. I'm curious if you're doing anything purposefully, any purposeful. Training's the wrong word, but you know,

Ethan Kross: I.

Connie Fontaine: we all model good.

We try and model good behavior. As parents and grandparents, are you working with them to learn this emotional regulation on their own at this age?

Ethan Kross: Yeah, they're forced to listen to 20 minutes of my books each night before bed

Connie Fontaine: That's great.

Harry Cohen: That was a

Ethan Kross: on replay. Right. Ev e every night. Uh,

Harry Cohen: That's a good one.

Ethan Kross: that's right, that's right. You know, it's, it is funny that the imagery I have is in shift. I tell the story of, uh, of a Navy SEAL going through, um. Survival. Uh, and EVAs a POW training camp essentially.

And, um, one of the things they do when you're going through that process is they put prisoners and cells and they play this [00:46:00] obnoxiously loud music.

Connie Fontaine: Right.

Ethan Kross: Uh, and I think that's how my book might be interpreted to my children before bed each night. That was the imagery. So what do I do with my kids? I talk to them about these tools.

Um, I don't do it. I don't direct. The tools of them unless they ask me to. So,

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm.

Ethan Kross: here's what I mean by that. I will talk about things I'm learning or talks that I'm working on at the dinner table. Uh, hey, did guys, did you ever hear about this thing that some people do and it helps 'em, they talk to themselves in their third person.

Have you ever done that? Why do you think people do that? Let's have a conversation about it. What I'm doing there is I'm putting it out. In the air for them to consume.

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm.

Ethan Kross: sometimes if, if, if one of them, and I'll do that with lots of different tools so that they're familiar with these concepts. Um, that's, that's me trying to help them invisibly, right?

I'm giving them resources, but I'm not shining a spotlight in the fact that I'm [00:47:00] directing it towards them. Of course, they'll listen to this podcast and now

Connie Fontaine: I'm in

Ethan Kross: can't do it anymore. Um. But the other way I'll help them is if they happen to be struggling with something. So, um, you know, one of my daughters took up diving a couple years ago and at one point she, um, was promoted from like, what I had considered a death defying height of like four feet off the ground.

I don't know why anyone would do this to like 40 feet or something, just ridiculous that I couldn't watch. Um, so like, attention regulation is a tool I didn't watch. That helped me regulate my emotions in that situation. Um, but she was, she was getting really nervous about it to the point where she would climb up, go to the end and then come down, which, you know, is, is a no-no.

And as one person said, you know, you kind of have to dive if you want to be a diver. And, um, and, and in that [00:48:00] instance, we talked about a couple of tools. Um. When I describe them to, like, I would, I, I describe them very quickly. Then I was, you know, frequently told that I was very annoying and had to leave the room.

But, um, but several weeks later, she conquered the fear and, oh, fantastic. How did you do it? What'd you do? And then she basically just said, well, you know, first thing I did is I, I, I got up there and I kind of, I, I, I tapped my thighs a few times, slapped them, and then I said, Maya, you got this. I took two deep breaths and I did it.

So basically she. Performed a ritual, did some breathing, distanced self-talk and executed.

Harry Cohen: Wow.

Ethan Kross: it was, you know, in my head I was doing, you know, parent wind.

Harry Cohen: yeah,

Ethan Kross: I didn't do, I played a cool, uh, in front of her. So I think,

Connie Fontaine: for a lot of years just

Ethan Kross: yes, well,

Harry Cohen: So,

Ethan Kross: they've already told me that. But, but here's the thing. Here's the thing guys.

And I [00:49:00] end shift with this or close to end it. This is about culture and we're all parts of different cultures. Culture doesn't just mean religion. It doesn't mean just living in this country or another. There's a culture that characterizes all of the groups we belong to at home, at work. Our friends culture is one of the most powerful tools that exist for helping us manage our emotions.

'cause our cultures give us beliefs in our family. It is possible to, to manage our emotions, cultures give us practices and tools. I, I, I, I, I model tools for my kids. I give them tools. And so thinking about the role that you play in your cultures as agents that can promote these tools, I think that's really important too.

Connie Fontaine: I think that's a great point.

Harry Cohen: you said, and you know, we speak to a lot of people at, in a lot of levels around culture and the fact that you brought that up, I'm really glad that you reinforced it because every leader. Establishes the [00:50:00] culture of their organization from their behaviors and their beliefs. You know, you're not in the culture, you are the culture.

And when you

Ethan Kross: Yeah.

Harry Cohen: a leader, have so much power to influence culture. Not everyone does, but leaders have more power to influence the culture. So what. Messages do leaders send to reinforce the culture that we regulate our emotions around here, and I work on being better at regulating my emotions. Think about how cool that is, because when the leader does that, we look at him and her and go, yeah, I

Connie Fontaine: Thinking. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yep.

Ethan Kross: That's right. That's right. It's so critical. Yeah. We're we're speaking the same language.

Harry Cohen: I I so appreciate this. And that we are successful at it. This isn't theoretical. Look at your daughter's ability to jump off that, that board.

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm.

Harry Cohen: about.

Ethan Kross: I.

Harry Cohen: What's the [00:51:00] payoff? Everybody wins. Proud parent

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm.

Harry Cohen: kid and effective salesperson. And on and on. That's

Connie Fontaine: Everybody. It's just for everybody.

Ethan Kross: I mean, look, managing your emotions poorly, it affects your ability to think and perform. It affects your relationships, it affects your health and wellbeing. If we were to round up a hundred executives, teachers, you name it. I would predict that most of them, all of them, would single out one of those domains, if not more, as something they really care about in this, on this planet, right?

Thinking and performance, relationships, health and wellbeing,

Connie Fontaine: All right.

Ethan Kross: those are the big three,

your ability to manage your emotions directly affects all of them. So yeah. Let's start. Let's start. Tackling this directly, systematically, and from every level [00:52:00] we can.

Harry Cohen: Beautiful.

Ethan Kross: so again, that's why I'm, I'm grateful for you guys having me on, um, to help share this stuff and for the work you do.

Connie Fontaine: there's so much juicy stuff we talked about in both books that, we'd encourage everyone to pick up both because it gave us more

Ethan Kross: Great.

Connie Fontaine: our toolkit, so

Ethan Kross: I.

Connie Fontaine: how we managed to get through so many points.

All of that we kind of wrote down, make sure we ask 'em this. I think we got there. So

Harry Cohen: Oh

Connie Fontaine: this

Ethan Kross: Awesome.

Connie Fontaine: a wonderful, wonderful discussion that I think is gonna help a lot of people.

Harry Cohen: I can't wait. 

Ethan Kross: Yeah, I have my favorites. There's some overlap with yours. Um, but I should say I'm flexible too, so like if it's not working, I try something else. And, I'll say this just to, an end on this note. I am so grateful. For knowing about these tools like that is from the heart, genuine.

Harry Cohen: Yeah.

Ethan Kross: They really make a difference. They make a difference because I don't stumble, uh, through life trying to figure out what to do. It doesn't mean I don't struggle. It means I don't stumble. [00:53:00] Couple of months ago. I was trying to manage something and it was creating some chatter and I, I, you know, it took a couple of days more than nor normal was a big thing.

It, it, it ended up resolving just fine. I called a buddy of mine, one of my emotional advisors, who was also a clinical psychologist, and I said, I. Yeah, it's really, it's interesting 'cause he knows about all the tools we're talking about. I said, you know, I, I used these tools and like, they really, they helped, they, they kept it in check.

And I go, what would, what do you think would ha have happened if I didn't use these tools? And, you know, his com was, you would've been in, in my office. You know, three days, three days in a row,

Connie Fontaine: Paying client.

Ethan Kross: sessions, you know, so, so, so really, so, you know, none of which is to say that people shouldn't avail themselves of those resources if they need them, when they need them.

They're, they're lifesavers, you should do it. But, but we also wanna build fortitude to help people manage themselves. And I think that's what this has the potential to do.

Connie Fontaine: It sure does. And we, we say the same thing about the [00:54:00] work obviously that we're doing, is that these are tools for ourselves as well and we're thankful we have them in our lives, of which, you know, chatter hit was always part of as well. So let do we. Do you have someone in your life, obviously we heard a little bit about your grandparents, which is. Something I'd want everyone to read about versus me trying to give you a synopsis. But do you have someone in your life that you think back on, present or past that it was extremely heliotropic? Somebody who, you know, brought that sun, knew, knew when they, when they weren't sunny, how to fix it, somebody that you'd wanted to share with us?

Ethan Kross: Um. My dad was always very good at, at, you know, reframing things positively. Um, for sure. that was a great exemplar. yeah, I think probably my dad. Um,

Connie Fontaine: nice.

Ethan Kross: and, Yeah, there was always a logic to it, growing up, like this notion that, I remember, in college one of my best friends would, I. you know, I [00:55:00] tended to be pretty positively dispositioned in college and optimistic about things. And, um, and this person was not, uh, and, and he is like, it's like, and he called me by my last name and he's cross, why are you always so goddamn happy?

And, and, and I would say, well, it beats the alternative. And, you know, it's, it's a very simple, reframe, but one that I do, Try to practice like, it is that simple. Like it beats the alternative of being stuck in different states. And so I think, I don't know, I think my dad helped with that, but I also stumbled on that.

I think just myself

Connie Fontaine: for us today and, and for our listeners, and we, we appreciate you and the time you've, you've given all of us today.

Harry Cohen: please,

Ethan Kross: well, I, I, I goes both ways.

Harry Cohen: It

Connie Fontaine: Thank you.

Harry Cohen: I mean, we've been thinking about this for quite some time and it's so wonderful to have finally met and chatted with you, and gratitude doesn't quite do it

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm.

Ethan Kross: Well, we'll be sure to follow up on, [00:56:00] in person. We're all locals. Um,

Harry Cohen: a

Ethan Kross: Harry, I know you are. And, and Connie, uh, you as well, are you in Ann Arbor as well?

Connie Fontaine: Well,

Ethan Kross: Okay.

Connie Fontaine: I'm on the other side. I'm downtown Detroit, but living on the west side too of the state, so, but yeah,

Ethan Kross: Okay. You count, so, so we'll, we'll figure out a time.

Connie Fontaine: for

Ethan Kross: Yeah. It would be cri criminal not to given the, the common interest, so,

Connie Fontaine: like we can always connect there over fish tacos or something like that.

Harry Cohen: would be

Ethan Kross: oh. Which,

Harry Cohen: Black Pearl

Ethan Kross: which is

Harry Cohen: The Black

Connie Fontaine: The.

Ethan Kross: sure. Okay. Yeah. Know that very well. Well done.

Harry Cohen: Well, we're

Ethan Kross: Delicious fish tacos.

Harry Cohen: about to open our new expanded in three weeks, right

Connie Fontaine: Well, not,

Ethan Kross: Oh.

Connie Fontaine: brag on you, but obviously that restaurant was part of getting into the restaurant business with a psychologist. I mean, it was to really live the behaviors and the leadership skills and everything that he did and coached executives on. And so the fact that it's done very well for this long of a period of time through covid and everything is kind of a, we always say it's a [00:57:00] proof point for the work that we do too.

Ethan Kross: Oh yeah. No, I, I mean it's a, it's a wonderful place. I didn't know it was expanding. Where is it expanding to,

Harry Cohen: we took over and we are gonna

Ethan Kross: ah.

Harry Cohen: into the whole corner, so we will

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm.

Harry Cohen: Of that space it does a, allow me to practice this stuff with thousands of customers and hundreds of employees and perfect strangers, and it really is a laboratory to practice this stuff all day long.

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm.

Harry Cohen: the fact that we are local. I do know you,

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm.

Harry Cohen: Our, our paths will cross, and who knows what the next, your next book will be and what form it'll take. But we're there to support you brother,

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm.

Ethan Kross: Yeah. Appreciate it. Appreciate it.

Connie Fontaine: Well,

Ethan Kross: Well, thank you guys. Um, take care. See ya.

Connie Fontaine: Thank you. You too.