#62 How Do I... Listen When I Know I'm Right & They're Wrong?

Ever get stuck in a conversation where you know you’re absolutely right, and the other person is just completely missing the mark? In this “How Do I…” episode of Be the Sun, Not the Salt, Dr. Harry Cohen and Connie Fontaine get honest about what it takes to actually listen when you’re sure you’ve got the right answer… and someone else doesn’t.

Here’s what you’ll hear:

• What real curiosity sounds like, and why “leaning in softly” can shift everything, even in tricky moments
• Tips for moving beyond “winning” an argument to truly understanding the other person
• The subtle difference between listening to change minds and listening to open your own
• Stories from everyday life and work where genuine listening made conversations richer (even when it wasn’t easy)
• Playful reframes and word tracks to help you pause, redirect, and bring more heliotropic energy when tempers flare

If you’ve ever left a tough conversation wishing things had gone differently - or wondered how to turn debate into genuine connection - this episode is for you. Cue up honest laughs, practical reminders, and that feeling when curiosity beats certainty every time.

(Mini “How Do I…” episode - perfect for anyone navigating disagreements, building better relationships, or just wanting to be a more generous listener.) 

To explore the book, or for more episodes, information, tips and tools to live a more heliotropic life, visit us at bethesunnotthesalt.com and find us on Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn and TikTok.

Transcript

[00:00:00] 

Connie Fontaine: Welcome to our Be the Sun, not the Salt podcast. My name is Dr. Harry Cohen and I'm joined by my chief super spreader, Connie Fontaine. And this is another in our series of how do I, how, how, how do I practice being heliotropic and all kinds of different circumstances. Today's topic is how do I listen to someone when I know I'm right and they're wrong?

It's never happens to me. Yeah, this is, I think this is a good one for all of us, and I think we're, we're already laughing 'cause it's a, it's a fun topic because I'm sure our listeners are already saying, oh, do I ever do that? You get into a conversation and being a real listener is about really listening, having some curiosity and genuinely wanting to understand the other person's point of view.

Harry Cohen: And, and that point is the whole point, which is [00:01:00] even though we're right, which is a posture that we take internally, it prevents us from being curious and

Connie Fontaine: Right.

Harry Cohen: because we've closed off.

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm.

Harry Cohen: really requires us to try to see if we can understand something. That we didn't understand before the

Connie Fontaine: That's right.

Harry Cohen: We were talking to a a listener, who literally was talking about how she has a difficult time talking with her father about a political, uh,

Connie Fontaine: Just his overall. Yeah. Point of view.

Harry Cohen: And, and the point is that

Connie Fontaine: I.

Harry Cohen: it is hard for her to have a conversation to try and understand his point of view because she disagrees with it. Yet the opportunity for her and for all of us is to see in the next conversation whether she can learn something

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm.

Harry Cohen: something means [00:02:00] didn't know that about him. And that's what we're really looking for. Understanding and that

Connie Fontaine: Yep.

Harry Cohen: that understanding of what the hell is

Connie Fontaine: Yep.

Harry Cohen: that I don't already know is the, is the whole point.

Connie Fontaine: Curiosity without judgment.

Harry Cohen: Yeah.

Connie Fontaine: think is the hard when we, when we think we know we're right, you know, I had some friends ask me, um, at book club one time about a point of view that I had and they said they were, they approached it, that they were curious about my point of view and how I could feel a certain way.

Um, and I think as the conversation went on, it was clear that there wasn't curiosity. There'd already been a judgment made, um, and that I complete that it shut the conversation down. Now, in the beginning I was like, you're curious. Oh, thank you. I would love to share like how I could possibly have approached it in this way.

And, um, it was such a welcome thing. And then it turned quickly because the genuine curiosity wasn't there. There had been already a judgment made.

Harry Cohen: I am really glad you brought up [00:03:00] curiosity. There are certain qualities, certain virtues that we exude, which make us heliotropic.

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm.

Harry Cohen: Compassion and gratitude and generosity and curiosity. Curiosity is so critical if we could cultivate our own genuine curiosity. Not fake curiosity. Let me try and understand what you're saying, which is fake curiosity, but real.

I don't understand. I wanna know more. It can be perceived as genuinely listening. 'cause it is. That's why you felt the way you did Connie. 'cause they really were yours until they weren't. So that's our job, you know, to be a, you

Connie Fontaine: Until they weren't.

Harry Cohen: Can I learn something in this conversation

Connie Fontaine: Yeah, I think the reality for me is it was so obvious that there wasn't, um, curiosity anymore, and that feeling is just yucky. I don't wanna ever do that to anybody. So I think having that true, those, your real listening ears on isn't as easy as people like it to say it is, but I think [00:04:00] practice makes it easier.

Harry Cohen: Yeah. The, the, the, the key for me when I'm in a conversation, when I think that I am right and they are wrong, is to not try to prove anything. There's a great expression. Never try and win an argument,

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm.

Harry Cohen: is such a clever way of reminding us, you know, they're not very fruitful arguments and if you're trying to win, you're really not listening.

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm.

Harry Cohen: that's the, you know, if you find yourself in an argument. I had a, my dear friend Bobby, we were having a conversation. He said something really profound. Oh, maybe three minutes into it he said. Paused. You know, is seeming like an argument and it was an actual argument and he said, that's not what I want to be doing in [00:05:00] this conversation.

He stopped us in mid conversation get us and probably me. But if we were both engaged in it to be trying to understand, not

Connie Fontaine: I love that.

Harry Cohen: and the feeling of being in an argument. You know, you ever find yourself in a conversation and suddenly it becomes an argument and you go,

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm.

Harry Cohen: we get here? That's what

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm.

Harry Cohen: And that's because I was trying to prove a point clearly. And when,

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm.

Harry Cohen: if you find yourself in an argument, you're not trying to learn something.

Connie Fontaine: I like the way Bobby just did it though, and just said, you know what, wait, what happened? And I think that'd be a great way, especially like I'm thinking about a colleague, it probably wouldn't get to that level, but I think stopping and saying, yeah, I don't like the way this is going. I, I wanted, I'm curious about your point of view, and I hope that that's coming across.

Let me ask it a different way. Or, you know, maybe there's a way to stop that. Or maybe sometimes you just have to [00:06:00] stop the conversation.

Harry Cohen: Yeah. I, I think, and I don't know this, but I think it would be helpful in these conversations

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm.

Harry Cohen: anybody who notices it to redirect

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm.

Harry Cohen: you just said. Let's, let's stop and go in a different direction. I want to try and understand you more, have a word track ready to go. I really wanna understand your point of view.

'cause I know there's some goodness in there. I don't want to try and win an argument

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm.

Harry Cohen: I sometimes do that. Um, and what I know about being right, and I love being right. I have

Connie Fontaine: Don't we all?

Harry Cohen: said, everyone loves it, but this guy, he said, I've retired from needing to be right. And whenever we're in a conversation, it feels like a, it seems like you're trying to be right.

He goes, no, no, no. I've retired. But

Connie Fontaine: I love that. It is a playful way to say, we gotta just stop right here. You know, Jack McCaughlin a colleague of ours uses this work, um, with he and his team and he sent us a quote from Mark Nepo. I think [00:07:00] it was

Harry Cohen: Yeah.

Connie Fontaine: listen, is to lean in softly with a willingness to be changed by what we hear.

And I love that, partly because the visual of it for me, leaning in softly, if you're truly leaning in softly, you're not gonna have an argument. And then more importantly, that willingness, I'm actually listening because I, your point of view might actually change where I'm coming from. So I thought that was a great quote he sent.

Harry Cohen: I love that. In fact, what a great way to enter any conversation, which

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm.

Harry Cohen: like to be changed by what I hear

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm.

Harry Cohen: softly leaning in. Thank you for that con.

Connie Fontaine: Yep. It's a good visual. Anything else on this one? I think that,

Harry Cohen: I'd love to hear people's reactions. I'd love

Connie Fontaine: yeah, I too.

Harry Cohen: stories, how they get it, how they do it, how they find themselves in an argument, and then getting out of an argument and being more curious.

Connie Fontaine: That's right. Don't tell us that you're always right. That won't be a good, that won't be a good response, but we'd love to [00:08:00] hear how we, how this has inspired you to maybe handle a conversation a little differently. Thanks everybody for listening.