#63 Work That Doesn’t Suck: Erin Hatzikostas on Authenticity & the 50% Rule

What’s the *real* secret to thriving at work… and in life? In this episode of Be the Sun, Not the Salt, Dr. Harry Cohen and Connie Fontaine sit down with Erin Hatzikostas, former corporate CEO, award-winning author, and globally recognized expert on authenticity in the workplace. If you’ve ever wished for more meaning, originality, or joy in your career, Erin’s wisdom is the breath of fresh air you didn’t know you needed.

Here’s what you’ll hear:

• Why authenticity isn’t just a feel-good buzzword, but a major business advantage in any organization
• The story behind Erin’s “50% Rule” and how it unlocks creativity, motivation, and results, both at work and in everyday life
• Candid tales from Erin’s journey from regional leader to CEO—and how she found success and engagement by showing up as herself
• Practical hacks for ditching corporate junk and bringing more originality (and fun) to the way you work
• How small acts of authenticity spark connection and trust, even in a world full of jargon, meetings, and AI
• Erin’s advice for aspiring leaders, especially women: side-step the “compromise calculation,” do the job your way, and become a thought leader in your own ecosystem

This episode is packed with honesty, research-backed insights, and playful takeaways on how to “50% rule” your own challenges, plus a little tough love for anyone stuck in business-as-usual. If you’re ready to rethink what’s normal, step into your own best self, and maybe even make work not suck, Erin’s energetic approach will inspire you to do just that.

Our latest guest episode is perfect for anyone building a career, leading a team, craving purpose, or just wanting a fresh, heliotropic perspective. 

Tune in for an interview that proves authenticity is the most underused power move in business and in life.

About Erin

Erin Hatzikostas is a former Corporate CEO turned Authenticity Aficionado. 

Often called “The Mel Robbins for business,” Erin is a globally recognized expert on the impact of authenticity in the workplace. She’s a sought-after keynote speaker, award-winning author of You Do You(ish) and The 50% Rule, and co-host of the hit podcast b Cause Work Doesn’t Have to Suck.

Her TEDx Talk was among the Top 20 most-viewed TEDx talks worldwide in 2021, and Erin’s thought leadership has reached hundreds of thousands. She’s been featured by ABC, CBS, Business Insider, Fast Company, and more. Erin’s company is also behind a groundbreaking national study on authenticity’s impact in the workplace.

With a dynamic blend of humor, intelligence, and unfiltered honesty, Erin is sure to be your favorite no-nonsense navigator through the corporate junk jungle, helping you see that authenticity isn’t a buzzword—it’s a business strategy.

Helpful Links

Erin’s website

Erin’s podcast: b Cause Work Doesn’t Have to Suck

You Do You(ish): Unleash Your Authentic Superpowers to Get the Career You Deserve

The 50% Rule

To explore the book, or for more episodes, information, tips and tools to live a more heliotropic life, visit us at bethesunnotthesalt.com and find us on Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn and TikTok.

Transcript

Erin Hatzikostas: [00:00:00] if you're an inauthentic leader, your people, maybe trust you on like a Thursday, 

Connie Fontaine: right? 

Erin Hatzikostas: if you are authentic, they trust you on Monday. Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday. And the best part about Sunday is they're not even thinking about you.

So what I want people to hear loud and clear is authenticity takes work. It's not about you, but it's a beautiful thing. It's about exposing who you are when people least expect it, and you're gonna get great, great results if you have the little bit of guts to go out and do it.

Dr. Harry Cohen: The voice you just heard was Erin Hatzikostas, and Erin was a delight to talk to. It was wonderful prepping for her, listening to her Ted Talks and some of her podcasts. But I gotta tell you, talking to her was absolutely fantastic.

Connie Fontaine: We dug into a few really good topics. I think this is gonna be a fun one. Her books are the first place to start. She first wrote You Do You(Ish), which is all about authenticity and authenticity in the [00:01:00] workplace, which I think is an important topic. And then her most recent book was an interesting one that we dug into called The 50% Rule, and we'll talk a little bit more about what that is later in the podcast.

Dr. Harry Cohen: And we won't even get into it, but it was inspiring for us and it changed the way that we did this podcast and frankly, the way I wanna approach anything, which you'll learn more about. But it was really, I gotta tell you, enlightening for me and sticky, in other words, stuff that I will take with me as a result of this podcast and I know will help me be a better person.

Connie Fontaine: I mean, Erin's not just an author, she's a keynote speaker, a former corporate CEO. She brings a lot to the table, and I would say the topic that we talked about around the Compromise Calculation is something that all of us do, and so it'd be great to dig in and understand how to use it.

Dr. Harry Cohen: so let's take a listen to Erin

 So welcome to our Be the Sun, not the Salt [00:02:00] podcast. We're very, very honored that you agreed to do this with us, Erin Hatzikostas. And, uh, I'm joined by my co-host, Connie Fontaine, to talk about your work, the insights that you can offer the rest of our audience in the world, and to learn some stuff, inspire some of our listeners and maybe some new listeners.

And take this where we haven't taken our podcast before to use one of your expressions. Let's 50% this podcast, and for the listeners who don't know anything about us, and you we're gonna get into what that means, but you know what that means. So let's take it to a whole new level con you wanna add?

Connie Fontaine: think, yeah, I do. I wanna start with how we found you, because I think one of the things that's so important as a colleague of ours, your sweet spot, a Gen X woman, saw you speak at a speaking engagement and said you've got a, she started following you and, she thought you'd be a great guest you bring your authenticity, you bring yourself and you bring so much about [00:03:00] leadership, to the work that we thought this was gonna be a perfect way to, to start the week for us.

Erin Hatzikostas: So good. Thank you.

Connie Fontaine: Yeah, so good is right and we'll, and do a formal introduction later, but would love for you to share what you want listeners to know about you.

Erin Hatzikostas: Yeah, so I was a, you know, a corporate, racer for 22 years. Um, small town girl, born and raised in northern Michigan. I will tell you the start of my, my career kind of came my sophomore year in college. I had dropped out of my engineering program, because quite frankly, I sucked at it and I was still taking math classes, mainly because I was good at it and nobody else was, which is sort of part of my personal pattern as I call it.

Like if, if there aren't a lot,isn't a lot of competition, that's where I'm gonna apply. And so I was taking math classes, but not sure what I was gonna do with it. 

 I found myself in Aetna's, pretty esteemed actuarial internship program. 

 but the good news is I went on to have a great career at Aetna, [00:04:00] big company, 50,000 people. So, uh, I was able to sort of Bob and weave and eventually I found myself in one of those subsidiary companies that was acquired asset And thought, you know, this is a great place, quite frankly, to land where my kids are young. I had been traveling a lot. I took on a sort of a role that was more of strategy, business development, not as much travel and. over the years as somebody would leave, they basically like look around and they'd be like, well, maybe, maybe we'll give it to Aaron and I.

So I just kept getting promoted and promoted and promoted. And I think this is important probably for your listeners to hear, you know, this will be somewhat annoying, but hopefully in the end, inspiring. It was a Friday. I'll never forget it. My boss texted me, can we talk?

And I was working home and you know, you're just like, oh God, can we talk? What? What has he gotta say? And he actually called me up and he said, actually, this is kind of heavy for Friday, but I've decided to leave the company and I wanna know if it's okay to recommend [00:05:00] you as my successor as COO. And you guys, I like so quickly replied.

No, thank you.

Connie Fontaine: No.

Erin Hatzikostas: And it was this thing that I now call the Compromise Calculation. But essentially I was worried, like I think so many women and, and humans, not just women, we see these big jobs and we know like we can do the job but we're worried about the junk. Uh, and that's what was for me. I, you know, I saw myself sort of having to like succumb to this BS and inauthenticity and junk that comes with that executive job and I was like, not worth it, right? Like I don't wanna up like my more time with my kids relationship with my husband, my, all the things. He was smart. It was a Friday, I think about it over the weekend and I. I asked a bunch of people their opinion, and of course everybody went, you know, all different directions. And eventually there was something that hit me that like, I, I swear to God, if your listeners only listen to [00:06:00] one thing I say, other than maybe the 50% rule and a few other things, but it's this , I had this epiphany that, um, you shouldn't not do something because you hate the way it was done before.

Instead do it your own way. And it, you know, it was, I was picturing myself as like, I was picturing that, I hate to say it, that that person, right, the guy that had the heart attack, the person divorced, the person that like acted all like pretentious. Um, and I eventually said yes. And what happened over the next year is I became, I actually then became CEO.

And didn't know what I was doing. But in three years we had like tremendous success. We went from a company that was five years of flat earnings. We tripled them. Uh, we sent them from 17 million up to 50. Employee engagement went up significantly. And, I finally realized that this thing called authenticity that quite frankly had [00:07:00] gotten me through failing exams, but still getting good jobs at Aetna, had gotten me promoted, 

Was the very thing that not only was helping my career and helping me stand out, but it was the thing that was helping our company too. It was changing our culture. and it was the thing that was like differentiating us and making us stand out. So, uh, long story short, I did three years of that CEO position, decided to leave, didn't know what I wanted to do, but about six months later, I realized that you could essentially be a thought leader for a living.

And now I spend most of my time, Writing books, writing, doing keynotes, and just obsessing and preaching this concept of authenticity as a strategy 

Dr. Harry Cohen: So Aaron, I love that. Uh, what do you do? I, I'm a thought leader for a living. I love the expression and listening to and steeping ourselves in your work. And the reason that Connie and I wanna 50% this podcast is quite frankly, we want to both do the. it is. Here's the basics, but here's the stuff that's breakthrough for us for [00:08:00] you and for our listeners. And I love it because it's simple and we like to say more by saying, less knowing. You know, our book I like, you don't like reading nonfiction books and wanted to write one that would be like, oh, that I can reference and use and leave behind. To this day, I still read one chapter a day to remind me this our work too.

And your work around authenticity is really powerful. So if you could speak a little bit about the 50%, um, rule, solution, way of operating so that we can take it to the next level. 

Connie Fontaine: what the rule is so we can do it today. 

Dr. Harry Cohen: Yeah. 

Erin Hatzikostas: I'll tell, I'll tell you the rule, and then in true Erin fashion, I'll step back and tell you the story kind of behind it a little bit so you can, uh, feel it. Uh, so the 50% rule essentially says that anytime you are taking a device, listening to a podcast like this one, um, starting something new, working on [00:09:00] something you really don't wanna work on doing, just about anything.

Only do about half normal, half new. Essentially take about 50% of the advice, the normal playbook. What is normal, the things that feel like you and you wanna do, and throw out the stuff that feels inauthentic. And maybe it's been there, done that old and crusty, and you just don't wanna do it. 

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm. 

Erin Hatzikostas: But then make room for the 50% you bring in, like something new, something fresh, et cetera.

And let me take a step back. So how this came about, when I first started talking about authenticity as a strategy and you know, redefining it and all the things I do sort of in my first book and my first keynote, you know, I was like, guns a blazing. But meanwhile, I was actually learning to become an entrepreneur.

'cause I had spent 22 years in corporate. Right? It's a totally different ballgame. And I was part of a mastermind. As you guys [00:10:00] know, we do a lot of self-development. There's so many gurus. I was in a great program, but I was sitting in Nashville and it was a two day deep dive into, um, I think this one was building your, your speaking business.

And they like rolled out the red carpet, if you will. It was like an 87 page PowerPoint. 

Connie Fontaine: Right. 

Erin Hatzikostas: Playbook. Right? Like, hallelujah. You don't need to make the same mistakes we did. Here's everything. Here's the checklist of everything you have to do. And I should have been thrilled and I was completely paralyzed. And I sat there and of course like the crappy, you know, I call 'em the sucky songs ran.

And I was like, oh, there to go Aaron, you sprinted all this time. You've been successful, but now like you've gone too fast and now you're, you're, you know, you're lazy and it's over and like, no more like high ambition, Aaron. And then I sat there and thought, what if you 50% rule it? What if I just give myself permission to toss out half of [00:11:00] it, but bring in some creative ideas, et cetera, and immediately I got motivated and excited and there's actually science behind it.

I talk about it in the book, it's called the Self-Determination Theory. And so, you know, all of a sudden I got motivated. And so for me, what happened over like the next year? I would do the same thing. I would not pull out the 50% rule right away. I would get frustrated and stuck and like didn't like what I was doing or whatever, and then I was like dummy, like do the 50% rule.

And then for the next couple of years, honestly, every time, whether it was a formal client or a friend or somebody would come to me with like an issue or problem, they're working on something, it would just like pour it outta my mouth. I was like, why don't you 50% rule it? And they'd be like. And I would explain and I would just watch them unlock.

I still to this day, like gets me so excited. Like immediate ideas, thoughts, motivation, and then, um, what got really exciting and why, you know, I ended up writing the book about it was, then I [00:12:00] realized the 50% rule is like everywhere in the wild. You know, I, the first time I really noticed it, I went to Hamilton.

Have you guys seen, hopefully the best Broadway show ever. I'm going to see it for the fourth, uh, third time this fall. Um, and I was like, oh my God. Lin Manuel Miranda, 50% ruled Broadway, right? Um, and then I started, you know, I, I'm a huge sportsman. I was watching the John Madden documentary and him talking about how he almost didn't become a broadcaster, but what did he do?

He 50% ruled it. And then he not only was happy doing broadcasting, he. Changed the force of it, right? He became the goat of all goats of broadcasting, and I saw it with weird Al Yankovic, like the worst ever. That is a megastar. He 50% ruled Music. And so this rule, this simple rule that simply says always, you know, do about half normal, half new, is it's motivating because of self-determination theory, but it's also the thing that can help [00:13:00] you stand out immediately.

I am. I am not a fan. I feel like there's two camps sort of to win, quote unquote in the world. You either have to be better slash work harder than everybody else. I'm just not into that. Or you have to be different, right? You have to 50% rule things. And I do it, I use it all the time, um, to, to do that. I'll give you a quick example of most recent.

Was working on a new speaker reel. Now I've been speaking for six years. Uh, it was time. I have some great clips. I still don't have like the mega 

Dr. Harry Cohen: Mm-hmm. 

Erin Hatzikostas: person right on the big stage clip. 

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm. 

Erin Hatzikostas: don't have the standing ovation every time, quite frankly. 'cause I don't have, I'm gonna be a little petty. I don't have like a sob story that ends in something where people stand up.

Um. And so as I was putting together, just like anything, I, I, I know I'm good at what I do, but I'm like, I don't wanna try to be the best. I see all these speaker reels. I'm not gonna [00:14:00] have the best stage, I'm not gonna have the best, you know, whatever. And so I 50% ruled it. And so I actually. I, because I talk about authenticity, I actually started out on a big booming stage.

It looks like a dramatic, there's a, you know, voice of God. Erin Hatzikostas is a former, you know, CEO turned blah, blah, blah. And then I stop it and I'm like. Wait a minute, Ralph, can we just let them hear me speak? And so I kind of make fun. And this was, you know, some of this isn't just fun, it's intellectual. I had heard that, you know, agents and people wanna hear you speak for longer clips, they're sick of the quote unquote sizzle reel.

They're sick of everybody having like the dramatic boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. And so. When I got done with that reel, not only does it demonstrate my brand, that was part of it too. I wanted to demonstrate authenticity to your point about, let's talk real stuff. But like, I don't compare myself to anybody else's reel.

Like, I don't sit there and go, oh, but they're, I'm like, mine's just different. It's, it's 50% rule. [00:15:00] It's me.

Connie Fontaine: Yeah, the authenticity part of it shines through in the 50% rule. I mean, all your work kind of goes together 

Erin Hatzikostas: Yeah.

Connie Fontaine: And I think that that ability, when you think back to the people, or at least when I think back to the people who stand out in my career and in my life, are those that are, do things differently. They 

Erin Hatzikostas: Right. 

Connie Fontaine: just shine brighter in a different way. 

Erin Hatzikostas: Yep.

Dr. Harry Cohen: and, and shining brighter in a different way is what we're all about, which 

Erin Hatzikostas: Yeah.

Dr. Harry Cohen: helio, this heliotropic effect. One of the things that people don't understand, but they sort of do intuitively, is why we're drawn to certain people. People were 

Erin Hatzikostas: Hmm.

Dr. Harry Cohen: to the Qualities they exude, which is the scientific effect of this thing called the Heliotropic effect and authenticity.

What you talk about 

Connie Fontaine: primary. 

Dr. Harry Cohen: is one of those qualities like generosity and gratitude and kindness. They're all great dependability and. You know, a bunch . But authenticity is one of those qualities that when you can feel it and want to be around it and like it, [00:16:00] and you go to town on it, which is why we love this point, and we hope that our listeners go, I want more of that, and whether they get it from this one podcast, let's hope that just, just this alone. Sparks that for them, that they 50% rule their next conversation with somebody. You know, I'm gonna do it the same way, but I'm gonna crack open my own style to blow it open because I just heard it that way. Or they go to town and read your stuff or listen to you and they get more of it because. I got a little taste of it and then listening to you more and more and more, it's like, oh Yeah. 

oh Yeah. And dug it even more. So thank 

Erin Hatzikostas: Yeah.

Dr. Harry Cohen: it out there and let's keep trying to, to 50% this quality. 

Erin Hatzikostas: Yeah.

Dr. Harry Cohen: Yeah. 

Connie Fontaine: Well, one of the ways I wanna talk about authenticity, 'cause obviously being your brand, I think you come to us as an expert in that space. For a [00:17:00] lot of people, it's important to know it's not, doesn't make you weak. it's not something that is meant to be. You wear your heart on your sleeve either. Authenticity is bringing your best version of yourself, and I'd love for you to talk about how you got there and was it something that was natural? Did you have some sort of epiphany? 

Erin Hatzikostas: Oh, so how I got there, which I probably don't talk about enough, I talk about it a little bit in my book. 

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm. 

Erin Hatzikostas: I was freaking lucky. I had a father that oozed authenticity, 

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm. 

Erin Hatzikostas: of course I didn't realize it at the time. It took me till I was 40 something, writing a book. He didn't label it, but he first, he was a teacher.

Uh, he was a teacher for 25 years. I think he retired early. Um, or I know he did. Uh, and he would come home every night. You know, I remember he would, my mom was a teacher too, but she was closer and so she'd, she'd come home, she'd already be in the kitchen, he'd sit down. He'd have this like one Heineken.

And I think what a lot of people would do after a long day would sort [00:18:00] of, especially teaching God bless teachers, right. Would be like. Bitch and moan about like this kid or this other team, right? Like there's just, and just like lament. And he really didn't, he would tell stories nonstop of how he, did things differently.

I mean, one of my favorite stories he tells, he was talking about these kids and they weren't listening and he was frustrated and, normal would've been yelling at them, punishing them, whatever. And instead he, he decided to walk into class that day. He went on the chalkboard, uh, and he wrote, I'm a blank.

I'm a blank. I'm a blank. And then he had a little tape recorder and he hit play and he walked outta the room. And the kids, of course, these were middle schoolers, they were like, what in the world? 

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm. 

Erin Hatzikostas: And James Taylor, I'm a steamroller, came on. And of course, like the, the goal of it was, I'm, you know, I'm a steamroll alert.

I'm a napalm bomb. They had to fill in the like three things that he says in the song. And that was his way of making the [00:19:00] point about the importance of listening. And it demonstrates, you know, one of my key definitions is people that are authentic don't do what's normal. They do what's needed. 

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm. 

Erin Hatzikostas: So many times normal isn't what's needed because especially in this world, right where tension span is so short and like we, we need to jolt people, we need to wake them up.

And he was so good at that, so, so I hear those stories and then he actually went on and became a real estate agent for the next. You know, second half his career and he crushed it. Like they're heading off to Italy today actually. Like, thank God. 'cause they weren't doing it on a retired teacher salary.

Like he crushed it as a real estate agent, made so much money and the same stories would come through 

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm. 

Erin Hatzikostas: hilarious stories about how he approached his clients and didn't bullshit them and all this stuff. And so. I was so lucky to have that. That is part of my passion, knowing that a lot of people don't have that beacon, that demonstration or they have it and it's like here and there.

And so that's why I try to be that and that's why, you [00:20:00] know, I'm kind of annoying guest. I tell like these long stories. But that's part, that's part of my formula, my framework and the actions that I give people to take one of them is to be a narrator, to be a storyteller. Because it sticks, because you remember it more.

That's what people actually 

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm. 

Erin Hatzikostas: need and, and so that's what really, and then, you know, to take it a step further, people, when I went to retire, people kept saying, we're gonna miss your authenticity. And that was actually the first time that word really became. A badge, if you will. I knew the word, but I hadn't been called it, and I remember thinking, but I don't come into work.

As the same exact person as if my friend Meg had a pool party this weekend, right there. There isn't just a be yourself. I knew that. I knew that there was a nuance sort of juxtaposition and I think, and, and so I wanted, you know, when I, I realized that authenticity, this thing that had they had put a label on was my kind of, probably my [00:21:00] success factor.

'cause I saw it, my father, I saw the success we had as me as a CEO, not knowing what the heck I was doing. And I was like, I wanna go teach it. But I'm like. How do you teach something at that time, as most people think is like, just be yourself. And when I started doing more research, you know, what I realized is the Greek word is authentico.

Uh, the Greek root. And it means to be genuine. It means three things. It means to be genuine, but it also means to be original and authoritative. 

Connie Fontaine: Oh. 

Erin Hatzikostas: I was like, yes, that people, not just me, as I reflected on, you know, Michelle Obama or other leaders in my company, they were more nuanced. And I realized that so many people want authenticity.

But why do we not have it? Is because we don't make it tangible. We, we think it's this, be yourself. I call it fo, being authentic. Nobody wants that. Bringing your whole poopy self to work. Um. And so the thing that, two things that I think really have helped me make an [00:22:00] impact, um, one is that I define it differently.

I define it as authenticity is about exposing who you are when people least expect it 

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm. 

Erin Hatzikostas: in the service of others, and that is the bombshell that people need to hear. 

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm. 

Erin Hatzikostas: Authenticity is not about you. 

Connie Fontaine: Right. 

Erin Hatzikostas: It's about you having a little guts, right? A little creativity, a little guts to go out on the ledge like my dad to, to do things that aren't normal.

To give other people permission to wake people up from their bad dream of going through the motions. And once you realize that it's not just about you, especially in the workplace where people are so scared that it's indulgent be myself, which sounds great, but it's gonna get me fired, then they're like.

Oh, not only does that make sense for themselves, but they can see it in other people. So that in between that and then, you know, and the framework that I do there, and then this 50% rule, which you're right, it's like a, it's a [00:23:00] authenticity hack. I call it. The 50% rule is not something anybody listening to this podcast should say.

I've never done that. 

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm. Right. 

Erin Hatzikostas: Nobody should say that. But I will tell you that even when I was writing the book. I had some things like health issues I had that I was like, it took me a while and I was like, you, you idiot. 50% rule it like having this like nomenclature, this thing that you know is a great team sport to be able to go into a team meeting and people are like, oh, what should we do?

I hate that we have to do this. And then they're like, well, why don't we 50% rule it? I'm telling you, something clicks in your head and it makes you take that action that you know you should do, but a lot of times aren't doing.

Connie Fontaine: Yeah, well, you take the ropes off of people. You, you give them the, the willingness, the ability, and you trust them to think differently, which, which would inspire creativity. 

Erin Hatzikostas: Yeah.

Dr. Harry Cohen: I like the fact that you give people a very simple hack. For lack of another expression, [00:24:00] lens way of thinking that snaps us out of our, I've always done it this way, to be better, a smidgen better. This whole 

Erin Hatzikostas: Yeah.

Dr. Harry Cohen: of ours is to. Exaggerate and emphasize, do more of what you already do. When you are at your best, that's what it means.

You're not gonna be a different person, but when you're magnificent, do that some more. Well, what do you mean when, when you, we'll call it 50%, you know, you, you started like that and then you did it so differently. We want people who listen to this go, oh my God, I can do that. This is not a bridge too far. I don't have to sign up for anything.

I can do it. From this moment on, I can listen to this podcast and immediately the next thing I do, can make it a smidgen better and I'm gonna, 'cause I now know what it means. I love the simplicity. I love the utility. That's why I think will help a shit ton of people [00:25:00] 

Erin Hatzikostas: Yeah. And I love that though. I mean, I, I read through the book, which is just magnificent, and you 50% ruled your book. 

Dr. Harry Cohen: I

Erin Hatzikostas: It's not the normal, like right, 50,000, 60,000 words. It's what is needed, 

Connie Fontaine: Yes. 

Erin Hatzikostas: is what is normal. And I like, I read it and I love. I love number four. You say show you care. And of course, I mean, I, I saw the word, but I also love the, the swear that's not written.

You know, someone else I know refers to it as authentic, give a poop. Right. Um, you, you do. And, and just to, to talk about it just a tiny bit more. The other thing I want people to hear is that it is not a risk. There is a. Safety net of data and research that we did that shows what is intuitive to you, 

Connie Fontaine: Right. 

Erin Hatzikostas: which is, and also not intuitive.

Like our research shows, for example, that boomers [00:26:00] want authenticity in the workplace more than Gen Z. It's everybody thinks, oh, well, you know, those Youngs, they're. 

Connie Fontaine: Yeah. 

Erin Hatzikostas: But it's actually those of us, I'm in Gen X, but like they have been in the workplace for like 30 plus years and we're like, yeah, we want it.

Why you don't think we do? 'cause we've kind of just like waved the white flag at this point. We're like, I, I give up, right? Like, I've been dealing with like same crop different day. You know, we found executives want it more than individual contributors, you know? And then we found that like people are, you know, four times more likely to follow a leader if they leave the company.

If they were authentic, we found that trust goes up by 600%, which I always love to say. Look, if you're an inauthentic leader, like your people, maybe trust you on like a Thursday, 

Connie Fontaine: right? 

Erin Hatzikostas: if you are authentic, they trust you on Monday. Tuesday, Wednesday , Thursday, Friday, Saturday. And the best part about Sunday is they're not even thinking about you.

So what I want people [00:27:00] to hear loud and clear is authenticity takes work. It's not about you, but it's a beautiful thing. It's about exposing who you are when people least expect it, and you're gonna get great, great results if you have the little bit of guts to go out and do it.

Connie Fontaine: That's right. 

Dr. Harry Cohen: it. Love it. I, I would ask you chapter four, this, the current CEO of the company that sponsors this podcast, the current CEO, that he inspired me to write that chapter. That was, that's 

Erin Hatzikostas: Hmm.

Dr. Harry Cohen: Right. 

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm. 

Dr. Harry Cohen: I mean, one of the things that when I coached executives, when they would give speeches, it was the same thing you're saying. I'd say you have to be authentic . Vulnerable, authentically vulnerable, which is not vulnerability in the surface of, I think I'll this and they'll think this about me. That's not authentic, vulnerable.

Oh, you know this, it's, it's being real. What did you say? Expose who you are when they least expect it in the purest way. 'cause it is, it, it creates immediate connection [00:28:00] and to your point, trust. And we can't do it enough. And it's not like, oh yeah, yeah, I do that. All of us do it. So do it some more. Do it a little bit more.

Do it a little bit better. Period. 

Erin Hatzikostas: Do it a little bit more. Can I give a tiny bit of tough love to, you know, maybe your CEO that's listening, listening, maybe the executives, other executives. Here's the little bit of tough love that I wanna serve you with. You may think you're authentic all of the time. Here's where it breaks down usually.

You're authentic in your one-on-ones, your team meetings. Why do most people get surprised at the data that executives want it more and and also get a signal that executives don't sort of. Want authenticity because you're handlers and your handlers are wonderful people. I'm talking your chief of staffs, your corporate comp people.

But what happens like when you get ready for a town hall, it's so easy to be like, Hey, chief of staff, like, get my PowerPoint ready, talking points 30 minutes before you're looking at 'em, and now you're. [00:29:00] No, you need, it takes work. You need to stop that crap. You need to come in messy. You need to come in with an inspiring, inspiring story.

You need to tell people what's needed, not what's normal. You know, your, your HR and your corporate comms like. 

Connie Fontaine: Right, 

Erin Hatzikostas: You, you actually need to get a hold of those and put some of you in them, because those people, God bless them, but they're trying to, they think they're trying to do it right by putting in the big words and the fancy and making you sound smart.

And as soon as you sound too smart, I guarantee you, you do not sound authentic. So, all right. I'm done. 

Connie Fontaine: that's great advice for people at all levels. 

Erin Hatzikostas: Yeah.

Connie Fontaine: and be that other person. You talked about that with your very first story. You don't have to be the CEO the way somebody else was, the CEO. You don't have to do anything the way anybody else does it. You have to bring your authentic self to the role and that makes the difference. 

Erin Hatzikostas: Yeah. And one other point, not to be like a total like annoying, but let me make this one other point 'cause it's so relevant. What is happening now with ai? [00:30:00] Such a shift in the past people, the, the inauthentic crud, it still sound polished. It sounded human. 

Connie Fontaine: Yeah. 

Erin Hatzikostas: would put up with it even if you were like, I don't know what they just said.

What's happening with ai, and you guys have seen this I'm sure, is that as soon as something's too polished, what do we think? It was written by a bot, right? Like the email was written. And so I actually love AI because I've noticed people all of a sudden calling out inauthentic BS because they think it's from a bot.

And I'm like, I don't care who puts it out. I don't care the human or a bot. But now we're in this world where trust, you almost have to be messy. You almost have to not have the comma in the right place or the M dash or use the perfect language. 

Connie Fontaine: a good 

Erin Hatzikostas: If you do, actually people are gonna be more suspect that it's not really you.

So like now, it's not only nice to have, I think it's an imperative, um, to gain trust [00:31:00] internally and externally.

Connie Fontaine: That's a good point. Be a little rough around the edges. Be yourself. 

Erin Hatzikostas: Yep. Yep.

Connie Fontaine: Yep. 

Dr. Harry Cohen: And this notion that you have to work at it is a paradox because what 

Erin Hatzikostas: Hmm.

Dr. Harry Cohen: believe is be yourself, which means why should I work at being myself? Well, that's the, that's the conundrum. What do you mean? Well, you don't show 'em everything. It's inappropriate. It's TMI. But what would, I love what you said. What could I share with you that is about helping you, that is in the service of you, that is offering, that is a generous quality. One of the things that we know is that we, we feel things that we can't. don't understand why we feel, but there's a reason why we feel it. Why do I trust this person? Why do I distrust this person?

Why do I like this person? 

Connie Fontaine: Right. 

Dr. Harry Cohen: why do I want to be around this person? Why I'm attracted to this person? Why am I recoiled by this person? We can't quite put our finger on it, but the reasons are real, and what we're talking about are those [00:32:00] reasons. When we can get at that juicy goodness that makes somebody go, oh yeah. That's what we're after and it does take some effort and some work, which is the the deal. Sorry, not sorry. 

Erin Hatzikostas: Yeah, totally.

Connie Fontaine: the point you made too. It was, it's, you wrote the book on authenticity. You wrote the book on the 50% and you still have to remind yourself, and it's what we talk about all the time. You are probably a naturally heliotropic person. I'm gonna guess with all the interactions we've had, 

Dr. Harry Cohen: awesome. 

Connie Fontaine: to work at it.

We do. 

Erin Hatzikostas: Yeah. Hundred percent.

Connie Fontaine: book, we talk about it every day, all day, and yet we all find ourselves getting caught. It's the way we're wired. 

Erin Hatzikostas: Absolutely.

Connie Fontaine: Be protective of ourselves, be defensive, and it's finding that that best self. When do I show up at my, well? How do I look when I am at my best? And 

Erin Hatzikostas: Yeah. Yep.

Dr. Harry Cohen: um, Aaron, can you talk about the a-hole manifesto? 

Erin Hatzikostas: Oh my gosh. You really did get in deep to you do ish. Ah, that was definitely a [00:33:00] 50% ruled thing. The a-hole manifesto. When we, when I wrote my first book, actually one of my biggest cheerleaders was my kids, like part-time nanny that I didn't need as much anymore because I was more flexible at home. And she became like this.

Apprentice. It was very much a blind leading the blind as I started my business. And so she, she helped me with so many things. And um, when I was writing it, she was like, we need like a name, something, you know, and she's young and smart and she's like, like this podcast has like, call them whatever. And so we were like, what can we use to unite?

And then of course we're like, it has to be sassy 'cause that's. Sort of my brand. And, uh, we, we sort of played with like, what are we trying to do? And the A-hole a-hole acronym, uh, stands for Authentic Humans. Oh my God, I haven't said this. Something lousy energy. Get basically getting rid of lousy energy. I forget the o for some reason.

Um, [00:34:00] and because we're like, that's the authentic way to say it, like we're trying to get rid of lousy energy. And so then we created this manifesto that essentially is like a mad lib. 

Dr. Harry Cohen: Mm-hmm. 

Erin Hatzikostas: people can, if they read the book, they get, the only place you can actually get the link to get a customized manifesto is in that book.

It exists nowhere else. Uh, in, in, you do ish. And, and so what people do is they send in, we, we have them fill out and answer a bunch of questions, everything from like their favorite snack food to a storm, to their nickname, and then I send them back a video of like their customized. A whole manifesto, and it's just meant to pump them up.

It's meant to, uh, unite them. It's meant to connect, obviously, the author with the readers, and it's just, it's silly, but, but hopefully fun too.

Dr. Harry Cohen: It, it's, look, I like, I liked it because it was a reminder to, to be, pay attention to the energy you're putting 

Erin Hatzikostas: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Harry Cohen: and, and, you know, being heliotropic, being the sun, not the salt. Is, is the essence of [00:35:00] that same thing, which is how, what kind of energy are we putting out in the world? 

Erin Hatzikostas: Yep.

Dr. Harry Cohen: In the tiniest, tiniest ways that we behave, we, I, you, we all behave, I can behave better 

Erin Hatzikostas: Yeah, 

Dr. Harry Cohen: behave better 

Erin Hatzikostas: and I can't think of a better time for your movement, your book. Than right now. Like, I mean, if we're not divided, I don't know what divided is. If we're not, uh, all feeling anxious or if we're not feeling frustrated, overworked, whatever, whether it's the macro or the micro, like we need that. And if every person can just do one of the chapters a day, uh, we might survive all this crap.

Connie Fontaine: Abso Absolutely. And talk about people trying So authe authenticity for some, a lot of your audience, I'm gonna guess, are also lower level middle le, middle level managers who are aspiring to, you know, be higher in their career and they're afraid of being authentic. 

Erin Hatzikostas: Yeah.

Connie Fontaine: what's a baby [00:36:00] step to that?

How do you coach somebody in, in that space? 

Erin Hatzikostas: Yeah. You know, it's funny, my, um, I always say I don't change people, I change their addiction. 

Connie Fontaine: Hmm. 

Erin Hatzikostas: you know, part of this is about doing things and then actually collecting the data. And that's a fancy term for basically like, observe what happens, um, and my, my gateway drug to keep the horrible.

Analogy going is changing their out of office message. And I, when I first started telling people this and then I was like, this is so silly and stupid, I can't tell you every talk I do. Like I get at least a couple messages about people changing their out of office message. It's low hanging fruit. Every time you are out a day, there's like a hundred messages, unfortunately going out the door because you're getting so many emails and you're probably sound like.

I will be out of the office. I will get back to you as soon as possible, like you sound as robotic and bland 

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm. 

Erin Hatzikostas: it's a great opportunity. And I actually just did a YouTube video on this, like there's just three simple hacks. One, tell the truth. If you don't [00:37:00] wanna be super funny or whatever, just be like, I'm going to a softball tournament in Florida for my daughter.

I'm taking a long weekend. Like, what a great way. You know how many people can connect with that, whether their daughter used to play softball or they used to go to hockey tournaments, et cetera. Um, the second is tell a story. Uh, stories are so much like, tell why you're going to that tournament or tell about a client meeting you're going to and how you became a client with them.

What a great way for their client to see it. Prospects, et cetera. And then the third is give them something of value. And I'm not even talking like, here's our latest industry report. Like, no, nobody really wants that. Like you can put that in your signature. But like silly things, like right now I'm like so obsessed with this show called Shrinking that's on Apple tv, but like.

Connie Fontaine: show. 

Erin Hatzikostas: I'm like, I can talk about authenticity, I can talk about books. I go, but I'm like, you've gotta watch Shrinking. Like it's a game changing like show. And I'm always looking for something good like that. So like little things, right? Um, a video you just saw that inspired you, an [00:38:00] article you read that you thought they, you know, so changing your out of office is such a gateway drug.

Um, and then just watch and observe how people connect with it, how it changes. Um, that's just one of the, the most simple, you know, little steps.

Connie Fontaine: Not that you need this affirmation, but we received an out of office from you when we were trying to set this discussion up. And I love, I instantly knew we had something in common. I'm in northern Michigan. 

Erin Hatzikostas: Ah, awesome. Where, 

Connie Fontaine: know, I, yeah, so we're in pent water. 

Erin Hatzikostas: oh my gosh, that's so cool. 

Connie Fontaine: the west coast, not as high up as you were from, but 

Erin Hatzikostas: Yeah. 

Connie Fontaine: I instantly felt this connection with you and this warmth, and I was like, oh, I can't wait to talk to her more about X, Y, and Z.

So, Yeah.

And it was gave me an affirmation like, you're a mom, you're out chasing it all. And it just, it, it, you again, you don't need that affirmation, but for those that are listening, I thought sometimes cheesy out of offices were really self, um, reflective of something and they weren't always good. But the way you're explaining it is a really positive way to do it. 

Erin Hatzikostas: Yeah, but.

Dr. Harry Cohen: [00:39:00] wanna underline again, thank you for that, but get addicted to something great. I love the expression, I love the thinking. 

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm. 

Dr. Harry Cohen: it is about becoming a positive deviant. It's about becoming. 

Erin Hatzikostas: Um, 

Dr. Harry Cohen: Really addicted to 

Erin Hatzikostas: Yes,

Dr. Harry Cohen: things of, of anything, and, and I love this journey. I'm one of these old white men that you talk about

Erin Hatzikostas: I do not, whatcha talking about? 

Dr. Harry Cohen: And I'm addicted to, to becoming great. I'm addicted to becoming great human being in the

Erin Hatzikostas: Yeah.

Dr. Harry Cohen: ways, and you gave me that. So let's pass it on to others so that they can become. to good stuff, their own good stuff. Thank you for that, Aaron. In the tiniest ways.

Erin Hatzikostas: Yeah.

Dr. Harry Cohen: up the game for people who are listening to this and go, Yeah.

Yeah.

I wanna get addicted to something.

Great. Good. 

Connie Fontaine: [00:40:00] Yeah, 

Erin Hatzikostas: and you're already a great human. You're just getting greater and greater. Let's be. Let's be,

Dr. Harry Cohen: I'm already a good person or maybe even a great person. I wanna a greater person or a 

Erin Hatzikostas: yeah.

Dr. Harry Cohen: and, and I'm good with that. 

Erin Hatzikostas: Yep.

Connie Fontaine: I think attitude wise, one of the things that you just, even the title of your podcast, is it because worse work doesn't have to suck or some version? 

Erin Hatzikostas: Yep. Yep.

Connie Fontaine: that is such a, and people do that all the time. Oh, work, oh, here we go again. And I love the idea of putting that idea of, it doesn't have to suck, get addicted to making it not suck.

And I, I think find all the things you do love about it, the people you wanna be with, the people that bring out the best in you. What a great way to make sure your day doesn't suck or work doesn't suck. I think that's a great way to think about addiction to it. 

Erin Hatzikostas: Thank you.

Connie Fontaine: Yeah. 

Dr. Harry Cohen: I read a chapter every day to remind myself, and I wrote the book and, and only a couple of years ago, I just started doing that, and that today's chapter is fill in the potholes of the street. You don't 

Erin Hatzikostas: Um, I love that. I love that. Um, what do you call it, [00:41:00] parable, um, or, 

Dr. Harry Cohen: Parable of the Pothole, 

Erin Hatzikostas: yeah, the pop was a great one.

Dr. Harry Cohen: It's not just avoid the stuff, it's not just, you know, take care of yourself. It's go do something for someone that you'll never see. Plant the, plant, the orchard for the, you know, you'll never harvest those fruits and your co-host on, um, because work doesn't have to suck.

She made her career out of helping others, um, that she'll never see and be a part of. And I 

Erin Hatzikostas: Yeah.

Dr. Harry Cohen: the sort of the uplifting quality of that 

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm. 

Erin Hatzikostas: Hmm.

Dr. Harry Cohen: And I'm hoping, and I, was writing my little note this morning to, you know, a couple hundred people about this podcast and we're trying to fill in a pothole for the street that other people might walk down.

We'll never know whether this makes a difference in someone's life, but we're trying, that's our purpose. That's what we're trying to do. Right. Aaron?

Erin Hatzikostas: I, I love it. And, and that, that one stuck with me so much too. 'cause it's not just about that people won't see, it's like that [00:42:00] wasn't his job to fix the pothole. Right. Um, it, you know, he complained and complained and complained just to like, summarize if people are, and then but the potholes and then came back to the street years later and, and was like, oh, I could just fix the pothole.

And that's like, so connected with what I teach because I'm like. You sort of look around with all the BS and the work and the suck, and you're like, who's gonna save me? Who's gonna save me? I like, nobody's gonna save you. Nobody's gonna fill the pothole for you. 

Connie Fontaine: Yeah, 

Erin Hatzikostas: You have start and when

Connie Fontaine: favorite? Yeah. Your favorite story about Bobby, Harry, where he said, you.

know, that poor person, like somebody needs to like bring her dinner or something and you said, yeah, somebody should, Bobby. Yeah, it's too easy,

Erin Hatzikostas: you.

Connie Fontaine: to come up with ideas for other people.

You know, one thing I wanna make sure we get a chance to dig into a little bit before we, before we lose you, is the, the whole compromise calculation. Because as a woman who went through business, probably just a, a little ahead of you, um, I did that all the time. There was a, there was the compromise, the story that you tell, that you just told us about, you know, the [00:43:00] COO position. Um, I often measured my ability to take the next job by what I was gonna give up, and it was 

Erin Hatzikostas: Yeah. 

Connie Fontaine: on being a mom. 

Erin Hatzikostas: Yep.

Connie Fontaine: wife. I didn't know what, whether, what I was gonna have to give up. And I often modeled my behavior or what I, my anticipated behavior would be against that person who had that role then, or what I 

Erin Hatzikostas: Yep.

Connie Fontaine: the expectations to be.

And I didn't learn soon enough about this. And so I'd love, I mean, when I first heard Cheryl Sandberg talk about leaning in, I thought need to share this with all the young women that I come across. This is something I use a lot in mentoring and I'd love for you to share that so that we can make a difference today for those that are. Are making that same mistake. 

Erin Hatzikostas: Yeah. Um, thank you for sharing that. And it's, you know, the compromise calculation is essentially this, um. This graph that we think to be true, which if you just picture an anti-correlated line that says every time your career takes a step forward, you know everything else in your life goes down time with your [00:44:00] family, you know your health 'cause you're who you are.

Right? It's sort of like a tit for tat. And it can be that, um, I think for a lot of people they think that because they think I'm gonna do what I'm doing plus. Instead of, I'm gonna do a different job and I'm gonna do it a different way than everybody else. And you know the, there's a lot of components to this, but the tough love, zinger I'll give you, if you think that next job you're gonna be working harder and you do, that means you're leading worser.

And I know worse, there's not a word, but like 

Connie Fontaine: Yes. 

Erin Hatzikostas: if you, you know when I. Climbed the ladder. Yes. When I became CEO, were there times where I was dealing with some big stuff? 

Connie Fontaine: Right. 

Erin Hatzikostas: Absolutely. Like I had some tough phone calls on Friday nights at nine o'clock. 

Connie Fontaine: sure. 

Erin Hatzikostas: had to deal with some stuff, but also was I sitting in my bed doing PowerPoints at 10 30 at night, like I did.[00:45:00] 

No, because I had, you know, I had other people and I led them and I, and I trusted them. And so I think part of it is, we think it's a US plus. Um, I think also I really have been observing since I've been on the outside, like, why are so many of my. Quite frankly, I'm gonna be honest, my female friends so much more burnt out and frustrated in the corporate workplace than my male friends 

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm. 

Erin Hatzikostas: similar levels.

Like I have some male friends that are big, you know, important jobs, and I have some female friends that are in big important jobs and I think. I think women sometimes, our ability to buck that, that stuff and not have it stress us and to, to not actually change how the game is done. We, we struggle with that and it all goes back to like, you know, people pleasing and worrying about being accepted and all that kind of stuff.

And so, you know, I think you can take those bigger jobs. You have to work on different things, though. You have to put on some bigger [00:46:00] calluses on your heart. You have to, you know, you have to push back on certain things, and that doesn't mean. You become somebody you're not, but you have to also understand that the job is, is different.

And then, and so it's, it's really tough. I just really wanna wake people up to, you know, I, I talk about my TED talk that like the, the people, you know, women aren't necessarily being held back. They're being, they're, they're opting down. We're not, we're not opting all opting out either. We're opting down like I almost did with the COO position.

I'm like, uh, I'm good where I'm at. 'cause compromise calculation might tip over. Um, and it doesn't have to be that way.

Connie Fontaine: Yep. And it took for me, it took my first female executive to tell me, you're an executive already. What? What do you mean you can't do that next job? You just do it your way.

Uh, and I think that's what so many of us wanna share with, and it is mostly young women. Um, you know, I did a presentation once. What would your brother do? as 

Erin Hatzikostas: Ooh,

Connie Fontaine: a point to say. This is, you know, you gotta be able to answer the question in a different way. And if you all called your brother to say, what should I do? He'd say, [00:47:00] take the job, sister, what are you doing? So, 

Erin Hatzikostas: love that.

Connie Fontaine: a really important message and I'm glad we got to talk about that.

today too. 

Erin Hatzikostas: That's awesome. Love that.

Dr. Harry Cohen: two women in corporate America, and both of you were in corporate America and left. Um, now, now Connie actually joined a different corporation. I'd love for your insights for people now, like, man, I wish, I wish I knew then what I know now, but I do know it now. So give, give all the women listening a couple of nuggets.

Connie Fontaine: I will do, mine's 

Erin Hatzikostas: Go ahead con. Yeah.

Connie Fontaine: I joined a company that, so the, the company that Harry said sponsors us that we work with right 

Erin Hatzikostas: Hmm. 

Connie Fontaine: is. Is run by a woman. Um, and she's the, she's somebody who you would want to model and she's somebody who's so humble and such a great leader that it doesn't feel like what we would've called corporate America.

So that's just how I did it differently, is I just re I unretired and joined an organization. That was everything. If I could build a company, this is what it would be. [00:48:00] So mine was, mine's an easier answer. 

Dr. Harry Cohen: Yeah. Yeah. 

Erin Hatzikostas: I love that. I mean, I think that's great. That's the best case scenario. You go and do that. The, the caution is. That's hard to find or those, those people change. And so you, you know, you also can't rely on that, you know, if I were just like, there's so many things outside of just, you know, be more authentic.

Um, you know what I would say, I would say be a thought leader for a living. Like, and I don't mean for a living like we are, 

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm. 

Erin Hatzikostas: within your corporate wall walls, one of the things I, and I do coach, um, some executive women. That don't have enough time or mentorship or whatever is starting to get into those positions and be a thought leader.

Put formulas around things that you did, name things, write articles like. Nobody sits you down at any part of your career when you're like, changing from individual contributor to manager. Like, I, I wish we had like, almost like bat mitzvahs or something every time you like took on a like, and it was like, [00:49:00] okay, guess what?

Everything's changing. Uh, but if I had a, if I had a bat mitzvah or something, uh, for that person trying to get an executive role. I don't think they realize how powerful their thought leadership could be. Not just in mentoring, but in meetings, in team leadership and how much that is admired and seen by the people making the decisions about who should come up next.

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm. 

Erin Hatzikostas: was doing that all the time. I was always like, who, you know, when we have our next, and I gotta be honest, those people that were working really hard were giving like super complicated details and emails, uh, or sweating it out like they were not on my radar. 

Connie Fontaine: Right. 

Erin Hatzikostas: It was those people that were truly the great leaders, they were thought leaders.

They were doing things unique. They were slowing down to go fast. Um, so I, and I, I maybe figured that out towards the end, but I, now that I'm doing it on the outside, I'm like, I could have done this more on the inside. 

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm. 

Erin Hatzikostas: I, [00:50:00] it's not so binary.

Connie Fontaine: Yep. 

Dr. Harry Cohen: Beautiful. 

Connie Fontaine: I think that's, great advice. That's probably great advice for us to end on, I think. 

Dr. Harry Cohen: Love it. 

Connie Fontaine: else you'd like to share? I mean, this is again, the, to your point, we do this for a living and you do this for a living to make a difference for people.

Anything we haven't covered or any other point you'd like to make before we 

Erin Hatzikostas: I just wanna shine a light on, no pun intended. Um. You know, I said you 50% ruled the book. I also was aware of your relationship with Holman and how this podcast, that is, that is, it is 50% ruling things like, I wanna scream at so many corporate leaders, uh, that are trying to do culture by like, putting out the, like fancy words and all, you know, the hiring, the leadership consultants, I'm sorry, that've been in HR for 30 years.

Connie Fontaine: Yeah. 

Erin Hatzikostas: Like not only. Is this probably really helping their culture internally, but it's such a differentiator externally in the fact that they've partnered with you to do this podcast. [00:51:00] 

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm. 

Erin Hatzikostas: Like that is what, that is. The 50% rule. It's genius. And I just want anyone listening in other companies to maybe not even replicate exactly that, but to think differently like you have, like the company has.

Um, and like I try to teach.

Dr. Harry Cohen: I so appreciate, you know what, you know what? You inspired me this morning because I was, you know, we were prepping a little bit. I, um, looked at your website and I downloaded the chapter, the last chapter of a du set role, and because of that, I'm gonna, Abby, keep talking about it. I wrote 30 chapters and I think the 31st should be an executive, shared this great idea.

I say all the time, this stuff is so easy. It's easy not to do. I am going to do what you did and put it out there for people to get, which is, I have to write it very short. I haven't written it yet. It was just this morning That was horn. Um, I'll credit you. That is so easy. It's easy to not, it's easy 

Erin Hatzikostas: Yeah,

Dr. Harry Cohen: right past somebody and say [00:52:00] nothing.

It's easy to not hold the door. It's easy to not say please and thank you. It's easy to not be authentic. It's, it's easy to not do this stuff, but it's also easy to do. And I so appreciate 

Erin Hatzikostas: totally agree.

Dr. Harry Cohen: inspiring us, giving us this time and love and, and authentic self and, uh, what a gift girl. 

Erin Hatzikostas: Oh, same to you guys. This has been such a gift for me as well.

Connie Fontaine: Good. 

Dr. Harry Cohen: We, 

Connie Fontaine: it was a fun day for us and I appreciate the time as well. Thank you. 

Dr. Harry Cohen: so we, 50% of it.