Be the Sun, Not the Salt

#78 It's the Little Things: Building Trust with David Horsager

• Connie Fontaine and Harry Cohen, PhD • Episode 78

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What if becoming more trustworthy started with something as small as keeping one tiny promise today? In this final guest episode of Be the Sun, Not the Salt, Dr. Harry Cohen and Connie Fontaine sit down with trust expert David Horsager to explore why trust is the ultimate competitive advantage and how “little things, done consistently over time” can transform teams, relationships, and entire organizations. 

What you’ll hear

  • Why trust is not a “soft skill,” but the root cause underneath leadership issues, engagement problems, sales slumps, innovation blocks, and culture breakdowns. 
  • The eight pillars of trust and how they give you a practical framework, not just a motivational poster. 
  • How David’s “how, how, how” process helped leaders triple sales, transform health goals, and even save marriages by getting to one clear, doable next step. 
  • Why gratitude shows up as the most magnetic trait in the research and how it quietly erases entitlement, selfishness, and negativity. 
  • Real stories of trust being rebuilt after big mistakes, from everyday workplace missteps to public leadership blunders and even political reconciliations. 
  • A simple but demanding truth: trust is only rebuilt when you make and keep a new commitment, not just a great apology. 
  • Concrete ways to apply this work at home, in friendships, and with colleagues, not just in the C-suite. 

If you’re thinking about who you want to be in the new year, as a leader, partner, friend, or teammate, this conversation gives you both the inspiration and the tools to start building (or rebuilding) trust in small, meaningful ways. 

Useful Links




To explore the book, or for more episodes, information, tips and tools to live a more heliotropic life, visit us at bethesunnotthesalt.com and find us on Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn and TikTok.

David Horsager: [00:00:00] There's repelling traits that push people away. We all have 'em. There's magnetic traits that draw people in. Number one most magnetic trait in people. 

if you just think, and you're just listening today? What is the most magnetic trait in individuals? Many of you would say, oh, a smile is a magnetic, it is. A sincere smile is magnetic, not number one. Humility is good. True humility is. Not number one. empathy even.

Oh man, that's, that's a magnetic, you find someone who can really empathize with you. Number one, according to this study was gratitude, as you know, this is so magnetic and you think of it if you can find someone, not weird. Thank you, thank you, thank you. But I'm saying grateful. almost all the negative traits go away.

Grateful people. If you can build this into your life, You can hardly be entitled while you're grateful.

Connie Fontaine: Right.

David Horsager: hardly be, you know, self-focused when you're grateful, selfish, when you're grateful. I mean, almost all the negative traits go away. 

Dr. Harry Cohen: Who you just heard was David Horsager and David is the author of "Trust Matters more [00:01:00] than Ever." Actually, he's the author of several books and Connie and I both heard him at a conference for 800 Holman Senior leaders back in June, and we've been really excited about getting them on this podcast.

Con?

Connie Fontaine: Yeah, we knew we needed to squeeze this one in before the end of the year for everyone starting to think about their plans for January. What am I gonna do to be working on my self and trust is probably one of the biggest things because that's the other thing we learned. It's a skill.

It's just not some innate thing that you either have or you don't. It's a skill you can learn with the help of David's book, first of all. He's the CEO of Trust edge Leadership Institute. So this is all science-based. He's definitely known to be an expert in the field, and he's somebody who's working with large companies.

And I would say this is for all of us, not just from a leadership. Standpoint, but our personal relationships too.

Dr. Harry Cohen: And I would just like to add and reinforce, which is the point of everything that we do. Little [00:02:00] things, done consistently over time, is how you both build trust, maintain trust, repair trust, and for us how to be the sun and not the salt.

Connie Fontaine: And I wanna lean into just one other thing, and that's to just promote David's most recent book. we can't wait to crack into it. It was just launched. Trust at a Distance. Six Strategies for Building Trust remotely. So with that, on all this excitement, take a listen. Okay.

Dr. Harry Cohen: So David, welcome to our Be the Sun, not the Salt podcast. As you know, you and I have met, I wanna introduce you to my co-host and chief super spreader, Connie Fontaine, who. Also now, I've heard you speak several times. We were joking about this before we started recording, and I really loved the last time that you spoke to all 800 of our senior managers at Holman.

It was significant. It was profound. I'll tell you a couple of stories about what [00:03:00] happened in my little group, but it was really wonderful. And then reading your book, rereading your book again. In prep for this podcast, and again, found so many nuggets of wisdom that I'm really excited about.

 So without further.

Connie Fontaine: importantly, that book that you were talking about, Trust Matters more than ever. So that's really important to us. And what I love about this book too is the tools. So it's got 40 proven tools. It's physically laid out. Most people listen to this podcast instead of watch, but if you watch it, it's tabbed.

All these little tools are easy to find. So, yeah, I agree with Harry. this is a little nugget that, I've already gifted it to a new leader, so this is one that, that we're looking forward to spending some time and really digging in with you today.

Dr. Harry Cohen: And one more thing before we allow you to speak.

Connie Fontaine: We let you talk 'cause you ne we never let guests talk, but.

Dr. Harry Cohen: One of the things that you said in that last, um, address to all 800, um, leaders at Holman was how, how, how and man did I, we take that and run with it. We [00:04:00] created an entire podcast series entitled How, how, how, talking about how do we practice what it means to be the sun and not the salt. How do we. Do the things that we all wanna do, and you literally, it was because of you that we created the how, how, how, and let's talk more about the how, how, how.

If people only listen to this podcast and nothing else, let us hope that they come away with a, oh man, I'm going to do a bunch of stuff from now on.

David Horsager: How, how, how.

Connie Fontaine: how, how is right.

David Horsager: Good Question. The final, how gives hope? If you don't have a final, how many people you know spend their life, spend meetings, spend strategic planning, do a SWOT analysis? And, uh, want so much something differently, but they don't get to a final how And that final, how gives clarity. That gives hope.

It's like, I think I shared it there, it's the how did I lose 52 pounds in five months? It took that process. How did the second biggest healthcare [00:05:00] organization, north America. Changed their whole organization. It was that process that changed them and five years later they wrote us this very special, uh, you know, the tipping point of change for them in the how haha process. So yeah, we can talk about that or, or, or anything, but

Dr. Harry Cohen: I, I'd love for you

Connie Fontaine: important to start

Dr. Harry Cohen: next, or

David Horsager: Yeah.

Dr. Harry Cohen: go there.

Connie Fontaine: and I think, and I want people to don't tune out if you think you already know about trust. Because I think that's the other thing, as a, as a leader who's been in the world for a little longer than, than most of the people I work with, I know trust. I know how to build it.

I know. And I thought I was really good at it, and I think I'm still really good at it, but we all can be better. And this is the, this is kind of the tenet of everything we talk about in every episode for us, David, is we have to get better at what we do, everything we do, and every day we can get better.

And building the trust it's. Easy to forget about one of them. Maybe clarity or, you know, commitment, one of the, the eight Cs of your pillars. I think it's important to talk through all of this, so we'd love to jump in

David Horsager: Yeah.

Connie Fontaine: wanna start.

David Horsager: Well, I think [00:06:00] we get to then, we'll, we'll just have the teaser on the how, how, how process. 'cause you might think you know it but you don't. But I think we actually come back to that. So there's your teaser. It's gonna be great. It is. We've had people triple sales in 90 days. I've had people have it saved their marriage.

I've had people use that process to,

Connie Fontaine: Yep.

David Horsager: know, like I said, I've lost 52 pounds. We've had people beep that by a long shot in their weight. But I think we starting at the beginning, I mean, I think it always is help helpful to go back to the beginning. And so my grad work, um, the big finding was. Uh, maybe the first or one of the first to show how a lack of trust, the biggest cost in a company.

I believe You gotta start with trust, and I believe a lack of trust is our biggest to cost. I think everything of value is built on trust. I think it's a trust issue and that, and so. We don't have a leadership issue. We follow based on trust. We don't have a sales issue. People buy based on trust.

Innovation goes up when people trust each other, otherwise they won't share ideas. Learning in a classroom only goes up when I trust the professor or the content or the safety or trust of the room. Marketing messages are only amplified when I trust the message. So, um. [00:07:00] If we can increase trust, then we actually hit the leading indicator of any big problem.

And so I will argue, you know, from my grad work to the, you know, we, I think we put out the biggest study or one of the biggest untrust, uh, and leadership organizational trust for sure outta North America annual study trust outlook. All your audience can have free access to it. Um, but basically. It's if, if people can shift their thinking as see as a trust issue, they solve the real issue.

Instead of saying, even like engagement isn't engagement engagement's great, but you don't get engagement with engagement. You only increase engagement when you increase trust. So we have to shift thinking about trust. That was that. That was the Trust, my fourth book. You, you noticed, um, you know, trust Matters more than ever and all, you know, it's, it may my favorite in many ways because it's, it's so tool driven and tactical. Um, did have a book just come out two weeks ago called Trust at a Distance. Six for Building Trust in a Remote Workspaces, just because there's people dealing with that very [00:08:00] specifically. But, um, as far as the book that just hits 40 tools that people can use tomorrow. So yes. Absolutely trust is critical and then there's a way to build it and you know, we could talk about this all day long, but just to give a clue, these eight Cs are not just kinda. Cute little alliteration. They're actually each represent a very important research funnel. The eight Cs are the eight pillars of trust. These are the ways trust is built globally in context. And so, I think we have to set it up with first. Trust is critical. It is your greatest asset, a lack of trust, your biggest expense in person in life.

It's the greatest competitive advantage you can have. It's it that trust is critical. Second , There's a way to build it. That's the eight pillar framework. As far as the eight pillars, there's tools you can use. One of those is that one we'll talk about later. How, how, how. But the Pillars are clarity.

People trust the clear, they mistrust or distrust, ambiguous or overly complex. Number two, compassion. We turn out, we trust those at care beyond themselves. Number three character. We trust those that do what's right over what's [00:09:00] easy. Number four is competency. This, you know, we trust those that stay fresh and relevant and capable.

This is, this is Connie. This is Harry. These are people, they've been around forever. They've been through, they've taught leadership, they've taught everything. They know it all, but do they, we don't. The biggest counterforce to this pillar is arrogance.

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm.

David Horsager: like complexity and ambiguity are counterforce to clarity. Arrogance is the counterforce. Knowing it all, it's the way we've always done it. That's a counterforce for us. I say often if you're leading the way you were five years ago, I don't trust you. If fully, that doesn't mean we don't want legacy knowledge and we can't learn a load from people that have been around for a hundred years. so competency commitment's the next pillar, we trust those that stay committed in the face of adversity. This is where the framework for rebuilding trust is found. Connection is the next pillar. The willingness and ability to connect and collaborate. We tend to trust on that.

Connie Fontaine: Right.

David Horsager: you're, if you're just siloed, we don't tend to trust that as much as those that are willing to collaborate. Great. thing about some things [00:10:00] Holman is doing and, just how you're collaborating, connecting. It's so cool. Um, as an organization, six pillar is contribution, the real word. So these C words are for clarity and they do represent the research funnels well.

But the number one word out of this funnel was, uh, results. We trust those that contribute

Dr. Harry Cohen: Mm-hmm.

David Horsager: just have compassion care. You gotta get results. You're in sales, you gotta gimme results, buddy. Come on, we need some results. You know, we gotta get sales. Um, just like, uh, compassion.

Going back to second is like other words that came outta that funnel. Were like intent

Dr. Harry Cohen: Mm-hmm.

David Horsager: empathy. Those fit under the compassion pillar.

Connie Fontaine: Right.

David Horsager: So skipping ahead, final pillar Consistency. Sameness is trusted. So in brand, the only way to build a brand consistency, the only way to build a reputation personally, consistency for good or bad.

If you're late consistently, I'll trust you to be late. But, um, that's about as quick of an overview is first I believe this case for trust. And second, we [00:11:00] have this eight pillar framework and we can talk about any of those pillars for a full day each, but you have that. Then there's tactics to build those or tools we call them, but that gives us. Yeah, that gives you a start to go anywhere you want to go.

Connie Fontaine: Well, I think the first thing, a couple of things that you said during that conversation that I heard you speak and as one, it's a skill. You can learn this, and, and that's what this book is all about. That's what the tools are about. So that was a good reminder. This isn't just, some people are good at it, some people are bad at it. and the, and the second thing is, I think for people who deliver consistently, um, this is, this is one that. You know, that alone is not gonna be enough if you, you know, competency's not enough. Consistency's, not all of it is one big package. Um, and that's how you build trust.

David Horsager: To gain something, we come to call the trust edge. Like the trust edge is the greatest advantage you can have in work and life.

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm.

David Horsager: doesn't mean we don't weight some of the pillars differently. Sometimes, like my pilot, I really hope they have high [00:12:00] competency even if they're not compassionate.

Connie Fontaine: True.

David Horsager: nanny or babysitter, I want high compassion. Um, so sometimes there's times, but in essence in business and in real relationship in life, we do want all eight to gain the trust edge. Yeah.

Dr. Harry Cohen: Yeah.

Connie Fontaine: Yep.

Dr. Harry Cohen: What, what?

David Horsager: And you can, by the way, one can poison them all, like the character pillar can poison your confidence. Tiger Woods, uh, in two weeks lost $110 million in two weeks in endorsements at one point. The Catholic Church has done so many great things and lost $4 billion in the last decade because of a character issue. So you, you know, any of these can, can, can, can really hurt the others as far as trust is concerned. Harry.

Dr. Harry Cohen: So I was going to ask you, there's so many things I wanna ask you about, but if you wouldn't mind talk about. Two things, the little things. This is something that I dogeared in your book, the little things and how do you regain trust, the quickest, best [00:13:00] way to regain trust after, um, trust has been eroded or impact.

Next. So two, two questions. Then I got lots more.

David Horsager: Okay, number one, uh, it, we say it all the time. If I could spin the computer over through my glass there, you'd see a big sign that says it's the little things done consistently that make the biggest difference. Not the big things, the little things. 

 so. I, it is a little things done consistently that make the biggest difference. Little things over time.

You think of, um, you know, in sales someone has a big win. That's fine. I don't trust them on that. That can happen one off, one big deal. But I want a salesperson that's consistent 'cause I know they will win.

Dr. Harry Cohen: Yeah. Yeah.

David Horsager: I, it, it, it's, it's the same with, like I said it before. If you're late all the time, I will trust you to be late.

It's like

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm.

David Horsager: is what built that reputation for good or bad. But little things done consistently make the biggest difference. And that is, you [00:14:00] know, I'm being the same on stage and off stage I'm being, um, I'm, I'm treating people fairly consistently. Whatever they look like or however they, I am the same.

I'm being consistent. Um. Aristotle's famous for this quote who really wasn't Aristotle's, it was his work that Bill Durant put together in content. And that is, we are what we repeatedly do. and when Bill took all this wisdom and said, this is the essence of it, the idea is be a great repeater because you're so, let's just, let's just think about it in, in a few areas of life. my health is not because of I overate this morning at breakfast. It is because of little things over time, when I became way overweight, it wasn't because of eating too much that one time. It was because I had too many mocha lattes and scoops of ice cream over years. Right. if I'm a good husband. Oh wow. You said, I love you at the wedding. That's awesome. Well, that might not be enough [00:15:00] 29 years later. Right. You know, it's like, it's in business. It's, the problem is we're losing trust every second.

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm.

David Horsager: With every relationship, unless we're consistently building trust, because just like our body is atrophying and we don't put the right things in. Our relationships are atrophying. Think of the vision. We got a great vision for our company. You don't share that vision or values every 14 days consistently. Nobody knows them, so they're not making decisions by them, which is the only reason to have them.

Dr. Harry Cohen: Yeah.

David Horsager: you can see the power of consistency as far as trust is concerned. on the other side, rebuilding trust in the book. And it's, uh. Uh, you, whoa, I got your awesome book Here. Be the sun. Let's, let's look at that. don't they kind of go well together? I, I think that it's, it's, but you have, in the book, you have the process for how do you rebuild trust, a 10 step process. Rebuilding trust isn't easy. We've all broken trust in, in some way, probably, but I guess in a short [00:16:00] time together, I would just call this to this at the end of the day. only rebuild trust by doing when you do one thing. If you ever have a chance, you will never rebuild it unless you do this one thing.

It is the, the, the last and the list of 10. So I'm not dishonoring the other parts. It's great to apologize, but we never rebuild trust on the apology. I'm sorry I'm late. No, you're not. You're late every single time. That doesn't rebuild trust. So it might open the door of communication. Um, some of the other steps, right?

Whether you've had an oil spill as a company or a moral failure as a person, it comes down to one thing and that is: you have to make and keep a new commitment. It is the only way you'll ever rebuild trust. If you, if you don't make and keep a new commitment. It doesn't happen. That doesn't mean other parts of this aren't amplifiers. Uh, for example, if I've lost trust, I may have to invite more public accountability . To rebuild trust. Like, like, uh, you know, if I had a moral [00:17:00] failure, um, with my wife, I used to travel alone. Now you might have to travel with someone if you're gonna rebuild trust ev as an example. Or someone with an oil spill might like, okay, you did that.

Now you have to have tankers checked every day instead of every weekend. You have to pay for that. there are other things that can increase trust, rebuild it faster, but, um. But you'd never do it unless you make and keep a new commitment. Never. And the big, big problem here subtlety, is whenever you make commitments, you don't keep a big, big problem is you lose trust with yourself. So, first of all, make commitments. Weighted. Really weigh it with your kids, with your family, with your friends. It's like you make commitments you don't keep, you lose trust with yourself. There's an idea you might have heard, love your neighbor as yourself. This kind of precludes, like if you don't love yourself at all, have a hard time loving others.

And we know people like that. And it's the same with trust you make. You don't trust yourself at all. [00:18:00] You think everybody on the team's poisonous. So you think no one will build trust because you can't do it to yourself. And if you can't make and keep commitments, you'll lose trust with yourself. One more thought here is, while it is true, at some point you just might have to let go of a relationship or someone that's never rebuild trust with you.

I'm, I'm not saying. saying trust people. Um, like I've had people say, I love that trust stuff, David. I'm just gonna trust that guy again. Yeah. Trust him to do what he did to you last time. Like that. That's blunt, you know, but, um, but, uh, on one side, um, weigh it on the other side, on this rebuilding trust piece. I have seen amazing things happen where trust has been rebuilt when you might have never thought it. So at some point you, you might have to pause a relationship, put big accountability in place, things on the other side. I've, I have more hope in, in [00:19:00] people than, um, I've seen people change, actually.

I've seen people rebuild trust.you know, I saw when now he's passed away, but the opposition, relo, odinga and, uh, president Kenyatta. From Kenya, no one would've thought they ever would stand together, get on a stage together, shake hands together, and East Africa noticed, uh, what is now known as the, as the Kenya, the hug shake when you know there's odinga and kenyata shaking hands, and it didn't just

be a picture, but they actually started to build trust and really a, a continent to some degree as far as a shining light of East Africa changed. They've got problems again over there. We have problems in, in North America, but people, for decades would've never said they would build any trust and um, you know, so.

Connie Fontaine: I wanna take some courage to admit you're wrong. And I, I don't remember if this was something you said at the conference or whether it was something at our table, but we talked about a leader who had made a very public booboo, who had taken on somebody or been [00:20:00] disrespectful and then apologized personally, one-on-one. And it was the discussion about, well, how does that person gain trust? Well, they, he needs, that person needs to apologize in front of everybody. They need to.

David Horsager: Yeah.

Connie Fontaine: can't make your blunder

David Horsager: Oh.

Connie Fontaine: and then go apologize personally, and it was a really good example of, you know, really measuring trust and, you know, doing the hard stuff.

The hard, you really gotta apologize and make it real and genuine.

David Horsager: Connie this, this trust stuff hard.

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm.

David Horsager: It's like, it's like I remember I had a, a mentor of mine, he runs a huge company, CEO and all this stuff and he said, David, you know you'd make a lot more money if you just talked about how to help people look trusted instead of be trusted. 'cause they all just want a PR firm.

They wanna look it, but they don't actually wanna be trustworthy. Right. That's work.

Dr. Harry Cohen: And, and so in the spirit of, let's help anyone who's listening to this be more trustworthy, I a, by focusing on the little things, let's assume that [00:21:00] someone's gonna listen to this and go, you know what? He's right. I'm gunna, and what is the gunna?

And the gunna would be whatever, but I know that, you know, pick, pick these magnetic traits or repelling traits. They can do that. They can, they can do that today. Right Now they can finish listening to this and literally go do something. That we,

David Horsager: take something. So number one, this might be a shocker, but repelling versus uh, um, magnetic traits. There's repelling traits that push people away. We all have 'em. There's magnetic traits that draw people in. Number one, most magnetic trait in people. This is just kind of a fun opening and you know it. That's right, but most people don't.

Dr. Harry Cohen: yeah.

David Horsager: if you just think, and you're just listening today? What is the most magnetic trait in individuals? Many of you would say, oh, a smile is a magnetic, it is a sincere smile. Is magnetic, not number one. Humility is good. True humility is not number one, uh, empathy [00:22:00] even.

Oh man, that's, that's a magnetic, you find someone who can really empathize with you. Number one, according to this study was gratitude, as you know, and be this, this is so magnetic and you think of it if you can find someone, not weird. Thank you, thank you, thank you. But I'm saying grateful. They that just almost all the negative traits go away.

Grateful people. If you can build this into your life, You can hardly be, entitled while you're grateful.

Connie Fontaine: Right.

David Horsager: hardly be, you know, self-focused when you're grateful, selfish, when you're grateful. I mean, almost all the negative traits go away. So, so let's do James. Clear, friend of mine, you know, talks about habit stacking and we were just together at, um, something. Anyway in Nashville. But it, but basically, let's put tools together. So let's say, okay, we want gratitude, or whatever the thing is, everybody on here without even reading the book and think of something that they would like different in 90 days or, or a month. So now let's go back, we've teased it out and let's go [00:23:00] to the one, one of the nine clarity strategies. One of those is how, how, how, so the the idea on this strategy, if you wanna apply it to something like gratitude would be. We generally think in terms of if we're, if we're gonna take something for clarity and we think, oh, we gotta have a why. The truth is it's great to have a why. I don't wanna dishonor Senic or anybody else's work.

It's great to have a why. I hope you have a why. The problem is most people either have the why or they don't. This isn't something by going, getting away and doing a SWOT analysis, like, okay, let's write the perfect why I am doing this. Why for my Kumbaya no. You either got or you don't. When I, when doctors said a certain thing to me, my why was strong enough to lose weight.

It was, I thought it. I thought it would've been good to be healthier, but I'm telling you that why of my hanging out with my kids and some other things like that changed the why, right? So, um, you either have the why or not so well, what about who and Collins work, get the right who's on the bus? Great stuff.

I love having the right who's, I want 'em in the right spot on the bus. But the [00:24:00] questions, these three most overlooked questions that actually take an idea to an action. The three are, number one is how easy. Number two, way more important. and number three of course is how, but it might take seven. And this, when people get good at this, we see companies become clarity companies because they go, how, how, how, how, how? So we want want you to do on anything you wanna do. can think of something out there. something you wanna be more grateful? I want to gain 10 pounds. I wanna have a better relationship with my daughter. Take that thing you want. I wanna increase my sales by this. I wanna sell something by Christmas. How are you gonna do that ? Then how, how, okay, you got that thing then how are you gonna do that? Okay, then how are you gonna do that? How, how, how? Here's how, you know, you have a final how, when you have a who, that's one person. A when, that's a moment in time, 10:00 AM and a where, which is a very specific place.

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm.

David Horsager: could be virtual, but it's gotta be a place. Okay, so this, this idea is, let's say, [00:25:00] oh, our company, we wanna be more grateful. We think that'd be grateful to have a culture of we've got a poisonous culture. We want, okay, great. How are you gonna do that? Well, we're gonna be nice. Nobody's gonna do anything. How are you gonna be? Nice? How? Uh, we're gonna appreciate people. That's a good idea, but nobody's gonna do anything yet. It's not clear enough. How are we gonna appreciate people?

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm.

David Horsager: We're gonna write notes. Great. How are you gonna do that? You don't even have a note. Oh, I gotta go get a note. How, how, how, until you tell me you're gonna write a note every day by 9:00 AM or something, or even a first.

How could be, during this podcast I'm going to, um, order thank you notes. You know the, okay. Right now I'm ordering them on Amazon. That is a final, how that starts momentum. Right. So if I turn the computer around over here, you would see thank you notes. I've got a stacks of thank you notes,

Dr. Harry Cohen: Um,

David Horsager: here. Empty ones, not ones to me, not how cool I am. I'm saying just empty ones. Why are they right there where I can see them Right there?

Dr. Harry Cohen: yeah.[00:26:00] 

David Horsager: that having them there. easy for me to do the thing I want to do at the time. I wanna do it with a final how, being more grateful, right? Which is, I'm gonna write this by this time I on the weight thing, as you know, it's like, uh, one of my final hows was I'm not gonna drink a calorie on the plane.

That's me, one person when on the plane On the plane. I was addicted to Coke, I wasn't gonna make a, you have to ask the question at the end. Is that enough of a trigger or will you actually

Dr. Harry Cohen: Yeah.

David Horsager: Because people say to me, I'm just gonna, I wanna, I wanna get up earlier. Great. You've had that opportunity for life and you haven't done it.

So I do not trust that you're just gonna get up earlier. Right? So

Dr. Harry Cohen: Yeah.

David Horsager: oh, I'm gonna go to bed earlier. Great. How are you gonna do that? I'm gonna do this. How are you gonna do that? Ha ha ha ha. Until they have something they can actually do that will get them to bed earlier, that might get them up earlier. for me it was a first, it was a, a fresca. I'm gonna have a fresca that's still sweet, comes in a can, no calories. So my final [00:27:00] how was a fresca, because I would do that if I just went cold Turkey off of anything I open out of a can. It just probably was too big of a leap. Now, of course, a decade later that's all easier.

But that, that wasn't tomorrow. That wasn't when you were addicted to Coke.

Dr. Harry Cohen: I, I do.

Connie Fontaine: I love, I love the grateful point of view too. And I think to, to your point, what's the most magnetic, and of course we call it sun and salt. So there the obviously the same, the same context is, you know, that gratefulness it is. And if you, the minute I heard it at the conference, I thought, oh. Oh, that's why I like that person so

Dr. Harry Cohen: Yeah.

Connie Fontaine: Not only are they compassionate, all that other stuff, but that gratitude just oozes out. It's, they're grateful for their own life. They're grateful for you. They tell you how specifically and why they're grateful for you. Yeah, that is, that's a trait. That's everyone that's listening step and think, who's that person that exudes that?

And don't we all wanna be more like that?

David Horsager: So there's another pillar in the book it's called that's Grateful, but, it could be under consistency or contribution. And I think this is just fun because

Connie Fontaine: Yep.

David Horsager: right here, um, [00:28:00] it's going by your values. Okay? Your values.

 We weigh our values or our brand usually between two places, like, for instance, engaging, but high quality.

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm.

David Horsager: what's the, what's the beginning like excellence. Okay. So ours is something like this. It's like, it's like fun, but enga at one point it was like fun, um, historically, like, trusted, you know?

Right. Well, if you just went with, just, if your brand was just like trusted or quality, it could look like an encyclopedia or something. Right.

Connie Fontaine: Right.

David Horsager: If it was just hip and fun, it could look like in book form, like this book that has 24 fonts and a bunch of different things. And this is one I read like 20 years ago, but I just think of how it's like, ah.

Right. This is a different book if you're watching. Okay. Or it, so for us, if you look at any of our books, and yours is very similar, all of our [00:29:00] books, only do hardcover.

Dr. Harry Cohen: Mm-hmm.

David Horsager: Because that fit our brand is hardcover. It's gotta feel trusted. Right.

Dr. Harry Cohen: Yep.

David Horsager: like you said, it's gotta look, but it's gotta be fun and engaging in today's no attention span world, right?

Dr. Harry Cohen: Right.

David Horsager: So this is a way that we get to the contribution pillar, results pillar. And this is one way we're really similar. Like, I love touching this. Why? Because it's the qual, the feel of it. I can feel your brand, I can feel your hearts.

Dr. Harry Cohen: Yeah.

David Horsager: of loving people because it's fun and it's it's quality, right? And so this is, I don't know if we went, we didn't do a brand uh, uh, taxonomy or whatever before this, but I bet you there would be some big overlap between Trust Edge Leadership Institute.

Dr. Harry Cohen: Well look, we both are attracted to truth and wisdom and goodness and uplifting others, and the overlap is obvious, and what we want is for more people as. [00:30:00] We as people to be more trustworthy and heliotropic. I want to be that from now until I die and I'm not there yet, but it's getting there and we both know that the how, how, how will get us there.

You who've lost weight and are a better husband, father communicator in person because you've been working at it. It's not an accident.

David Horsager: to do. More to do.

Dr. Harry Cohen: Say more. Say, what do you mean when you say more to do and you're thinking about yourself? Not any other company, just little old. You. What? When you think about the more to do for yourself, what, what, what comes to top of mind?

'cause you're a very wonderful human being. Not a perfect human being, a wonderful human being already, and you still wanna be more wonderful. For all the right reasons, what comes to [00:31:00] mind?

David Horsager: what you did. Yeah. Something that comes to mind is what you just said, Harry. And that is, I said do at first, more to do. And you said be, and that's what I really, there's more to be almost, and you get past your fifties like us and um, and it's like, who do I wanna be? And, and so there's a part of that that is like, is becoming always, which for me is all kinds of things. Uh, in the midst of speaking about this and sharing about it and believing in trust, I'm totally imperfect at many things. Clarity comes to mind. I tell my team about clarity and then I'm unclear with them. And they do, we joke about it, but, but there's, there's different things. And B, like I'm a driver too.

Like I love to see results. I love to push things forward. What's the counterforce to that sometimes is patience,

Dr. Harry Cohen: Hmm.

David Horsager: with. My kids or, or something So, so there's always, um, work on, on that front and this fallen world on the other side of it. tactical is also, okay, "Be" is, [00:32:00] is is most important because out of us,

Dr. Harry Cohen: Yeah.

David Horsager: you know. You can tell when someone's on stage if they're real or not. can tell if they're putting input in, like we say in our, around here all the time, like input leads to output. if I put certain things in my body, I get certain things out of

Dr. Harry Cohen: Mm-hmm.

David Horsager: certain things in my head, the audience gets certain things out of it. Um, this, this is getting off the rails a little bit, but I think of two people that you know, you all know. names, they've written big time leadership books. They're known by everybody in our space. These two people. And I don't think I'll give the one away, either one away from what I say here, but you, everybody out there that's read leadership knows they are mega bestsellers. I've been on stage with both of them and, and multiple times I could say. And they're older, like, you know. In his eighties he is always fresh

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm.

David Horsager: and he [00:33:00] is amazing and he's just on stage, off stage. He loves people.

Connie Fontaine: guy.

David Horsager: Another one is a 80, I think, and he just does the same stuff from whatever he did from a whenever ago.

And he is a gazillionaire, but I mean, he calls it in. It's like, it's like I just have thought about this. 'cause this other one, this is probably the more bigger mega seller. And I thought, that's the one y'all don't wanna be like

Connie Fontaine: Yeah.

David Horsager: he's the same as he was. He's just calling it in. He gets his $90,000 of speech or whatever it is because of his name.

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm.

David Horsager: he's not fresh, he's not relevant.

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm.

David Horsager: And this one is, and he is joyful and he is fresh. So, so what does that mean for us going to this next phase? It's like, how do I stay fresh and relevant and capable? That's one thing. And that, and that's in, in what I'm putting in, it's reading, it's studying, it's all that stuff. And it's also the who am I becoming? Because, because of atrophy, [00:34:00] you know, you can get to a certain level of patience,

Connie Fontaine: Uh.

David Horsager: but that's gonna atrophy unless you keep. At it. Right? It's it's or love or kind of sweet. We have a statement in our company, we call it, just love them. How do you love the people? Well, how do you love the audience?

Well, how do you love came out of my wife

Dr. Harry Cohen: I.

David Horsager: when I was, yeah. 20 something years old. I'm speaking at these events. I'm scared to death backstage. And we said before we had the four kids and all that, and she puts her hands on my shoulders and she said, quit thinking about yourself love them. They can tell when you love them

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm.

David Horsager: like, get your focus off yourself and love them

Dr. Harry Cohen: It.

David Horsager: uh

Dr. Harry Cohen: I don't wanna lose it. It's so simple, profound, and true with multiple implications. If we understand the meaning of that, it's really quote unquote, all you need to know, which is,

David Horsager: Well

Dr. Harry Cohen: about anything.

David Horsager: yeah, if there's any word, there's only one word that could possibly be [00:35:00] higher, better, deeper than trust.

Dr. Harry Cohen: Yeah.

David Horsager: And it is love. and, and by the way, we think of it in every love, like this book being high quality and ribbon and really nice paper that we make a publisher do compared to the yellow paper they wanted to do on cheap.

Connie Fontaine: Yeah.

David Horsager: loving them.

Dr. Harry Cohen: Yeah.

David Horsager: We think of when people come to our conferences and have everything set up and beautiful, that's loving them.

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm.

David Horsager: of when we, when we only will sell what will help the client's problem that's loving them. Right. So, um, long time ago, there was something else I was gonna say and I can't even remember it anymore.

Connie Fontaine: That's okay. You know what, I was gonna take what you just said and extrapolate on, 'cause it's not just about, you know, someone with a big stage like you've got David. It's all of us in all. Whether it's just a leader going to a meeting, love 'em. That's

David Horsager: Yeah.

Connie Fontaine: don't come in with the, um, you know, we, we talk about, you know, your faces, not your own. I mean, as a leader coming in, that's the, that's the

Love on 'em. Open it up, make sure people trust you. Um, [00:36:00] and

David Horsager: Yeah.

Connie Fontaine: that's gonna be the start to a good meeting. Harry's got something important to say,

Dr. Harry Cohen: Well, no, it, it just struck me as so profound and simple and true and powerful and, and a great organizing principle. When your wife told you that you never forgot it. I was reminded of it when you, when you restated it and. I didn't say anything to her. I handed her Mindy Holman, a draft of the copy of this book, and she wrote the Forward and the quote that made me weep when I heard it.

You'll find that Harry's teachings are straightforward and simple and that's part of their beauty, but what makes them truly special is they come from a place of goodness, a place of forgiveness, a place of love. Now she brought, she said that 'cause she can, 'cause she knows and, and. And love is what it's really about.

I can't say it 'cause it doesn't sound scientific. It doesn't sound cool. It doesn't sound empirical.

David Horsager: I'm gonna write

Dr. Harry Cohen: It.

David Horsager: about love for the business world coming up. I, it's, it's, it's, I think, I mean, everything I've done is about trust. Five books, everything's about trust, but, but there is something of how they go hand in hand. [00:37:00] Um, know what it, this is a little bit of a jump. I love, I love that there, but, uh, Harry, but, but I think there's a, um, one other thing you asked a few minutes ago about like of what's next 

So one thing I wanted to get across, and I think it did, was we can't ever stop working on ourselves. It starts with ourselves first. Right? If we're gonna do any. So that was the input output, that's the being on stage who you wanna be, like the other part is, it is okay to change and think about how we serve people. So out of the institute, we put a piece of research out every year. We're known for it. We have certified partners around the world that use our work. We have, training, you know, the 250 people certifying, training, whatever. I speak quite a bit, right? I write a fair amount. One thing that's changed a little bit, and I I, it'd be fun to talk about this, especially I, you know, I know this for you Harry, and how you changed and kind of got committed in one space after other consulting and everything. But, um, [00:38:00] I said, no, no, no, to kind of executive advisory and coaching for a long time and I sit on boards and I liked that. But as far as like executive work, and it was like a year, a couple years ago and, and my chief of staff is with this group and, and, and they keep asking me and I said, no, no, no. It's, it's the biggest, organization in that industry. Okay. And so he just threw it and I said, well, for David, he does that, but it'll be this much. And it was like, this much a month and you have to do a year thing. And, and it's like not even in executive coaching space, right?

Dr. Harry Cohen: Yep.

David Horsager: And, and um, and it turns out we, we'd helped some people significantly just without pay.

Like we had, you know, big companies say we saved him a million dollars in a day and we've had these other ones, whatever. So with just a, God made me, however I think, or whatever, something, anyway, that company's like, absolutely. My leadership team, we're doing it. happened is I still speak and I'm passionate about that, and you've seen me do that, and maybe there's some gifting or something too. But a really close friend [00:39:00] of mine said, you're made for, made to walk by leaders that are alone at the top and um. The president of a pro sports team. Another group is this, uh, big financial firm, which all the senior leaders I meet with every, every month. Another one's the CEO of a financial company. But, um, when you asked me like, what are the things you will do as you move through it? One of them is a little more of that has been the right thing for me to be doing with and, and not that it's that much less speaking, but it's that kinda one-on-one. I really love the engagement that way.

Interaction one-on-one. So, but executive advisory, you call it. The other thing that I want to start, and I'll just throw it out there because I'd love to brainstorm this with you sometimes is more, um, I, I've owned the website, uh, the domain, the trust table, but it's kinda like this high level. Executive, but together. So it's not like just Vistage meet every month.

Dr. Harry Cohen: Mm-hmm.

David Horsager: it's not this, um, group that you, you know, that's, [00:40:00] uh, 200,000 a year, uh, for each executive, but it's somewhere where we get together. there's a togetherness and there's an advisory piece, and I'm brainstorming thinking about that, but it's about time that, that's gonna get started.

So when you, that's more tactical,

Dr. Harry Cohen: Hey.

David Horsager: that fits with push toward trust and love and. More personal, more, you know,

Dr. Harry Cohen: Yeah.

David Horsager: knowing that people were, yeah.

Dr. Harry Cohen: I, I, I repeating it, but I love this and I just hope that people listening go, you know, I'm gonna lean into this more deliberately with more attention in the tiniest ways. One of the things that I love about this material is. It is easy to do. Now you say it takes work. Yes. But it's also simultaneously both things can be true at the same time.

It's also easy to do the little things right now today. Um. People's lives will be [00:41:00] transformed to the point of literally, you know what? I'm not gonna drink that, that, uh, 300, 400 calories right now. Tiny, tiny, tiny.

David Horsager: Hm.

Dr. Harry Cohen: you know what? I'm gonna bite my tongue. I'm not gonna say the snarky thing that I'm thinking Good for you.

I'm gonna really lean into being more deliberately compassionate or what?

Connie Fontaine: but the punchline to all of that is it's so easy, it's easy to not do.

Dr. Harry Cohen: Yes.

David Horsager: There's that.

Connie Fontaine: that's our punchline

David Horsager: That right.

Connie Fontaine: and, and you know, if some, as someone who picks up the book often just puts, I know this stuff. Yeah. So do I.

Dr. Harry Cohen: Yeah,

Connie Fontaine: I work at it every day to be even better at it. Trust you. Think it's easy.

First of all, that's not easy. That takes time and it, and you have to build on it. But these little things that we talk about, if you look back at every day of your week, do you really do all the little things every

Dr. Harry Cohen: that's it.

Connie Fontaine: not.

David Horsager: one, one thing that I think that we hear at least all often in our, at the Institute with our work is, the reason people like it so much is [00:42:00] because it's born in research, but it's simplified down to something I can use tomorrow morning.

Dr. Harry Cohen: Yep.

David Horsager: I don't know if that's growing up on the farm or what, where I want to, if that shovel doesn't work, like I gotta use a different shovel.

I, I need, like, I gotta use that tool. So you will have like. I mean, organizations only have PhDs and executives, big pharmaceuticals and whatever. Like I love that. It is so great, and I think they're dealing with complex so much. Number one, they don't want kind of a cheesy motivational speaker. Everybody yell, yes.

I don't want that either. I wasn't born for that. I needed built from some research, right? I needed to have. I, I also am born in this space where it's gotta be so simple. That's why you have in the, in the 40 tools, how, how, how, ODC, how do you have a more clear mess expectation? ODC, how do you, how do you increase, A trust in the midst of conflict, the tool, the pause method. like, these are things I've used and have changed me. Organizations have used, but why do people use 'em when it's so simple to understand at least, um, they might just try [00:43:00] it if it's overwhelm.

Everybody's overwhelmed, so I think, oh, you're overwhelmed. You got a big problem. It's conflict. Let me give you the conflict theory in the 17 step process. I bet it'll help. No way. Hey, let me give you these four steps. Think about these next time in conflict. Ah,

Dr. Harry Cohen: Beautiful.

David Horsager: try that.

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Harry Cohen: one more beautiful plug for your book, because it's layered with beautiful ex, literally what you just said. Example, example, example, example. You know, the, the great eight at the, at the end they're just, it's just filled with good. Helpful, easy to deploy and apply. Tools, techniques, behaviors, actions, that'll make a difference.

By the way,

Connie Fontaine: and and one of the reasons, I'm sorry, here go. That's jolo.

Dr. Harry Cohen: wanting to go outside, you know?

David Horsager: He is done. He is had it. He is heard enough of me.

Connie Fontaine: Yes, she's, she's got her, she's got her way of getting what she needs. For sure. I just wanna say too, we appreciate you because [00:44:00] this was, you know, this is a big lift sometimes in December for all of us to get our calendars together. And you can imagine, I mean, for me, we're seeing leaders going into new positions the beginning of the year.

Everyone's searching for, do they have their, why do they know how to start amping up their leadership. And I know some young people and like I said, I gifted the book to somebody who's starting a big position, a little afraid, biggest organization he's run. And I said, here's where to start. I'm telling you over the holidays, look at this, you're gonna find a tool.

You don't even need to tell your team. You got a tool. Just pick up something that works and start, start Monday when you get back. And um, I just love that this book enables somebody to take an easy step. Step towards being a great leader, a great husband, a great wife, a great anything,

Dr. Harry Cohen: Love that. David, this is your chance. Final word, um, leave people with. Something that will stick. Now, I know that's a challenge, but do it anyway.

David Horsager: Yeah. Well, you know, I think you get too many [00:45:00] things in one podcast. It, it can be a lot, but I, I love this work. There's a load to it. But if I was gonna just think about some something through the holidays right now, actually, I would go back to something we've said, and that is, it's the little things done consistently that make the big difference.

So what are the little things, what are the little things you'll do? Because people will say. Um, I'm gonna do this big thing and they're not, but what's a little thing

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm.

David Horsager: do? A big, uh, we're gonna, we got, we just went to, got away to the, you know, our strategic plan. We got 50, um, marketing ideas. Great.

But which one will you do consistently?

Dr. Harry Cohen: Yeah.

David Horsager: Give me one, two, or three. You'll do, you know, you can have a thousand great marketing ideas. The only ones that work. The ones you'll do consistently. So pick one or two consistent ones.

Connie Fontaine: Right.

David Horsager: I get, I gotta do all this with my weight. I gotta do this over with my wife.

What will you do consistently? I'll stop drinking a calorie. I'm not gonna stop ever eating ice cream.

Dr. Harry Cohen: Yep. Yep.

David Horsager: I just, I gotta figure myself out. What will you do? I, I slowed down on ice cream, but I'm not gonna say no to ice cream [00:46:00] forever. I'm just, it's not, not gonna happen. So what, you know, what will you do?

What's the little things that you'll do for me? Easy to switch to fresca. to not drink any juice at breakfast. Easy to, you know, relatively. Um, so I would, I would pause right now. If I was gonna just think of actionable, what are the little things you'll do? That could make the biggest difference. And then the other thing is I would take the eight pillar framework and put 'em out and just say, okay, what's the real problem?

Because it's not engagement, not communication, it's not leadership. It's one of these eight.

Dr. Harry Cohen: Mm-hmm.

David Horsager: then you can dive into actually solving something real.

Connie Fontaine: I think that's great advice.

Dr. Harry Cohen: brother.

Connie Fontaine: advice.

Dr. Harry Cohen: Thank you to Connie's point. Thank you for making time. Your point about showing up, you showed up and showing up, um, is the whole kit and caboodle. Look at you. You're, you're showing up with giving us all of yourself and.

Connie Fontaine: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Harry Cohen: [00:47:00] Through brother.

Connie Fontaine: Yeah, with

David Horsager: Thank you. Thank you for the invitation. Oh, thank you. Keep doing the good.

Dr. Harry Cohen: Keep doing the good.

David Horsager: be the.

Dr. Harry Cohen: Thank you,

Connie Fontaine: