Choose Your Publishing Path: Traditional vs Hybrid vs Self with Trena White

Publishing has never been more accessible. And somehow it’s never been easier to publish the wrong book.

In this conversation on the Author’s Edge podcast, Allison Lane sits down with Trena White, CEO of boutique hybrid publisher, Page Two. We explain the three publishing paths - traditional vs self vs hybrid publishing, how “hybrid” varies widely, and what boutique hybrid publishing means. Plus, how to choose the path that matches your goals, your timeline, and your definition of success.

Page Two positions itself as a top-tier boutique hybrid with experienced publishing teams, award-winning design and editing, and strong retail distribution (including airport stores, Barnes & Noble, and independents).

In this episode, Allison and Trena cover:

• [00:02:32] How traditional publishing really works, including agents and proposals
• [00:03:16] What self publishing demands from you as the project manager
• [00:03:50] What hybrid publishing can provide, and what varies wildly by company
• [00:09:37] Why marketing is not a launch checklist, it starts with the idea
• [00:08:28] How to define success metrics before you choose a path
• [00:14:21] Why shorter, tighter nonfiction is winning right now
• [00:35:27] What stops working fast, including nonstop book posting on social
• [00:37:47] Why email lists beat algorithms for real book sales
• [00:19:52] How to think about B2B vs B2C book strategy for speaking and consulting
• [00:22:04] Why waiting until retirement can make your book harder to sell
  
  

Resources mentioned:

• Go and read this: Write a Must-Read: Craft a Book That Changes Lives—Including Your Own by AJ Harper: https://bookshop.org/a/55773/9781774585788 
• IBPA Hybrid Publisher Criteria: https://www.ibpa-online.org/general/custom.asp?page=hybridpublisher 
• Page Two Publishing: https://pagetwo.com/ 
• Connect with Allison Lane on LinkedIn: Allison Lane Lit: https://www.linkedin.com/in/allisonlanelit/   
• Connect with Trena White: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trenawhite/  

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Transcript

Allison 0:25

Welcome back to the Author's Edge. I am your host, Allison Lane. And I'm here for you because I know that you're here for yourself. If it's your first time, let me tell you, this is what we talk about. Marketing, visibility, the publishing landscape, if your book isn't out in the world yet. If you're still thinking, oh, I want to write a book, but I don't know anything about it. You're not alone. Nobody knows anything about the publishing industry because there is not a publishing 101.com. That's why this podcast exists because I am here to say this is how it works. Publishing has never been more accessible. And somehow it's never been easier to publish the wrong book. A book that's fine but forgettable. A book that sounds like everybody else. Or a book just doesn't open doors. Today, we're talking about choices because I want you to be able to make the choice that's right for you as a leader, as an expert, as someone who has a message to share with the world. That's why Trena White is here from Page Two publishing. This is boutique hybrid publishing, which is different. So Trena, welcome. I'm so glad you're here. Let's start with just defining the ways people publish and how Page Two is different.

Trena 1:53

Sure. Thanks Allison. Happy to be here. The way I think of the publishing landscape today, it's very complex. It's changed a lot in the last 10 or 15 years as different self-publishing options and hybrid publishing options have opened up. Fundamentally, how I would break down the different paths to publication are would be you have traditional publishing, which is the model everybody's heard of that, you might have seen if you've watched the TV series Younger, where it's the big five multinational publishers as well as a number of independent publishers. And if you're an author, you typically need to have a literary agent. You have to write a proposal. The literary agent pitches the proposal to these publishers and possibly will get a deal and an advance. So, it's the system people know and have heard of for a long time. Then there's self-publishing on the other end, which is you do it yourself. You might do everything yourself. You might have a friend do the editing. You might hire a professional editor. You might design your cover yourself, or you might go and hire professionals. Regardless, you are the one making all of the decisions. You are the one doing all the project management. You are the one sourcing professionals or not if you really want to do it yourself. So, true self-publishing. And then, in the middle is what we would call hybrid publishing, and that's where Page Two lives. I think of it as a combination of both traditional and self-publishing. Where the author invests in their work as they would with self-publishing. So, you pay money. You finance your work as you would with self-publishing. You own the rights to your work, typically with hybrid publishing. So, you're not licensing away your intellectual property to a publisher. And you have much more say in how the book is developed than you would typically in a traditional scenario. Within hybrid, it's a wild and wooly landscape too. There are all kinds of companies calling themselves hybrid publishers. Some of them have published three books. Some have significant sales and distribution like my company, Page Two. Our books are sold in airport stores and Barnes and Noble and independent stores and all the places you would expect. But a lot of hybrid publishers don't have that kind of distribution. They're basically using the same tools that self-publishers would access to make books available online. So, it's quite a vast and confusing landscape. And you're right, we consider ourselves a boutique hybrid. Meaning, we're top tier. Our team, many of them have come from the multinational publishers. Our team has won many awards for their work in book design and editing and all kinds of things. So, professional team with vast sales and distribution. The books look more like what you would see in traditional publishing in a best case scenario.

Allison 5:17

There's so many business models now. And I think that literary myth of an agent is going to pluck me out of my basement. And then they're going to help me develop the book. An agent doesn't do that. They're not your marketing director. You are. Or I am. Or someone like me. There are very few of us out there who come from Fortune 50 companies. Actually, I'm the only one I know and I know everybody. But you know, I'm sure there's somebody else I'm missing. So, you think, oh, let me start writing my book. That's not what I would do. I would start with talking to Trena or talking to me about what else is being written about your topic, and find a gap first. And then decide what your publishing path would be. Some publishers give advances and some turn to you and say, I want you to give us everything. Those hybrid publishers that are essentially self-publishing with support. They format for you and they might even not charge you anything. But you have to buy 2000 of your own books. And those books don't show up at Barnes and Noble. And oftentimes, they don't look that great. They're not designed by someone who's designed for the retail market. There's a different purpose to that book. No matter what, the marketing vision for your book has to be part of the marketing vision for you. You are the brand as the author. Your book is a product. Your book might be the VIP ticket that gets you speaking gigs or a higher rate for your speaking gigs. You are the one who has to have that vision. The publisher is never your marketing director. They turn to you and say, how are you going to sell this book? And even though they would love to help you, I'm sure, but they don't have the bandwidth, nor do they understand your audience or what your professional goals are. So, often it's not the question of should I publish? It's what path matches my goals, my timeline and my definition of success. What is this book going to do for you? And when do you want it to do that? Those success metrics are different for everyone. Right, Trena?

Trena 7:53

Yes. And they are very different. And I would say, to speak to your point, one of the biggest mistakes I see author's make is they write their book, it can take years. And then, they publish it in whatever way they choose to publish it. And then, marketing is an afterthought. So they have the book and it's, okay, now how do I market it? And we hear from authors regularly who come to us asking if we will take on the marketing and distribution of the book. Marketing starts right at the very beginning when you figure out what you're writing about. That's marketing. That's figuring out what is your unique market position, what do you stand for? What is it your readers need from you? And what is unique about you and your message that's going to stand out in the vast universe of thousands and thousands of books that are published every year? And so, to think about marketing as just social media and newsletters and pr, that's not the case. Marketing is the whole way you conceptualize the book. One of the things I would recommend everyone listening to this podcast should do is read a book, which we published from full Transparency, but it's excellent. It's called Write a Must Read by AJ Harper. We actually give a copy of this book to every single author we enter into a contract with right at the beginning. And the whole message of this book is identifying the reader promise of your book. So, what is the transformation your reader is going to experience through reading your book? Because the book isn't about you actually. It's about what it does for your reader. If you want a book that's really going to work in the market and has a chance to catch on, it has to serve a purpose for the reader. This book helps you think through what is the reader transformation. I just think that's critical. There's a temptation for a lot of CEOs and leaders. That's our core audience is our author group tend to be entrepreneurs. I think there's a temptation to put everything that you've learned in your vast career into your first book, but you can't put everything in. You have to decide what is, what does the reader really need from me and what's going to set. Me up for success in terms of finding a unique market that's going to get me more keynotes and more consulting and whatever the book is meant to do for you professionally. So yes, it's really critical to identify your own idea of success and also what the reader need very early.

Allison 10:49

Absolutely. Knowing what the reader needs sometimes means that you have to separate yourself from what you know they need to, what they think they need. The reader, the audience is experiencing often a symptom of a root problem or a root desire. I often find experts want to put their method for solving the root problem into a book and just dump out all the wisdom in their head, into a book. And have that be a legacy project. But it turns out one the reader isn't looking for your method yet. They just want to remove the negative symptom from their life. And so, they're not ready sometimes to even acknowledge that they need your method. But two, they won't recognize it because that they're not searching for that. And the other problem with that is that. If you dump out all your method and your knowledge, it reads like a textbook.

Trena 11:58

That's right.

Allison 11:58

That's why storytelling is so important in nonfiction. Even storytelling with dialogue.

Trena 12:07

this is not just for books that are explicitly narrative, but business books, self-help books,

Allison 12:13

business books, finance books. And once you do that, your book doesn't read like a textbook anymore. And we can read it faster when there's storytelling. Otherwise it's like a really dense flowerless chocolate cake. And you can really only have one or two bites of those, and then you're like, Ugh, somebody else finished this.

Trena 12:35

Yeah. Right. And you know, on a similar vein, one of the trends, or I don't even think I'd call it a trend at this point. One of the changes I have seen in publishing for nonfiction is a real move towards shorter books. This is something we've done a lot of traditionally a business book might be 80,000 words. 350 pages. That's just not what busy readers are going for the most part now, unless it's by a very well-known, established author. We've published a lot of books in that are about half that size. So these very concise, books sometimes we think of them as airplane reads. A paperback that you can slip into your bag easily, take on the airplane, emerge from your flight three hours later, and you've got what you need from the book. It's hard to write a short book. It's actually really hard because again, you have to be relentlessly focused on what are my core messages? What comes in, what goes out. Every word has to count. So it's a challenge. And also there's a real market for those kinds of quicker reads. And they're still substantial. The information in them can be incredibly substantial.

Allison 13:59

The format for a book today or even web content is short sentences, white space bullets. We do not want to see a wall of words'cause it feels like just cinder blocks coming at us. We need to see the space in between, like a Jenga tower that has the extra things removed. It's interesting. It stands on its own. It's unique and it's still strong.

Trena 14:34

One of our bestselling books, it's sold over a million copies. It's a book called The Coaching Habit by Michael Bungay Stanier. And it's this very small little trade paperback. Seven questions anyone can use in coaching questions effectively that anyone can use. One of them is, and what else? Each chapter unpacks how to use these questions. Very simple concept. It took the author about a dozen drafts to get this book right. Our creative director designed the text with lots of pull quotes, and as you're saying, white space, it's very dynamic to look at it, even though it's all tech space. And we've had countless authors come to us over the years saying, I want my book to be like the Coaching Habit. Not every book needs to be designed in that way, but it is just we're thinking about. What does the reader really need? What is the heart of the book? How do I simplify? I think those are good questions for authors to be asking in an era where people's attention is so defuse.

Allison 15:49

Sure. And seven questions is so much easier than 25 questions, And we have to make things easy for people. And

Trena 15:59

Yeah, that's

Allison 16:00

right. Easy for you.

Trena 16:01

That's right.

Allison 16:02

We don't want you to have to take a year long sabbatical to write this book. Because the book is not the end goal. The book fuels something because you are writing nonfiction or you're writing a memoir and it still fuels something because you want to impart your experience. But most of the time now, even memoirs say, well, I want to inspire people to do X or I want them to be able to avoid this. Maybe it's not memoir, maybe it's self-help with the storytelling. So great. You already wrote the storytelling part.

Trena 16:44

Yeah. And that's right. I love the way you're talking about how the author needs to think about what the book is meant to fuel. And earlier you mentioned that they need to think about what their success metrics are. That's so critical because for a nonfiction author, typically the book is meant to drive something. Some change in their business. So, they want to do more keynote speaking, for instance. Then you have to decide, okay, who is my ultimate audience? Who's going to be booking me for the keynotes? Am I going after the healthcare sector? Am I going after big corporations who's going to actually hire me and want to buy my book for hundreds of team members at their company or whatever it might be. Then you need to make sure that the book concept is leading you toward that and the marketing plan and everything along the way. So, I do think it's really important to have that long-term vision in mind. I had a conversation with someone just yesterday actually, who is trying to decide, is my audience, my, speaking audience? Is this a B2C model or is it a B2B model? In other words, am I trying to get individual consumers to buy my book or is it that I'm going to lead toward keynotes and hope that I can get a bunch of bulk sales? The answer to those questions is going to lead to very different types of books potentially. Are you writing self-help or are you writing something else that a company is going to buy at scale? It is really important to have that in mind. What are you trying to do? How is the book laying a foundation for your business? Three years down the road, five years down the road, what is your end game? And no publisher is going to be able to answer that for you.

Allison 18:42

No. And no publisher is your business strategist. And you are. Even when you are still in your role that has made you an expert. Your marketability in your expertise only exists while you're doing it. Very few people can get to the end of their career, retire, and then write their book. No one's that interested in your method when you're not doing it anymore.

Trena 19:14

Yes. Thank you for saying that.

Allison 19:17

Well, it, it's hard hard because everyone puts it off. Until

Trena 19:22

it's true.

Allison 19:22

Until they have time. You'll never have time. You find the time.

Trena 19:28

It's so true, Allison.

Allison 19:29

Time.

Trena 19:30

We have worked with authors who have built serious high profile careers within organizations. We work with them to develop a book that's in line with that career. And I can think of a couple of situations where the authors left their jobs before the book launched. And then we're left with an author who has no platform anymore because it was all tied in with that company that they were working for.

Allison 20:02

Yeah.

Trena 20:02

Once you don't have the backing of a company or an organization, if you don't already have vast networks and email subscribers and all kinds of other personal assets. It just makes marketing the book that much harder. So, I agree. Don't put it off because the fact that you're part of an or, you know, if you're the CEO of an organization, presumably, even if it's a personal project. It's going to reflect on that organization and presumably the organization will support it in various ways. Without that it's very challenging and that would be a downside for any publisher. And any even for a hybrid publisher like page two as well.

Allison 20:47

What I see most often is that a leader in their field, their professional identity is tied to their company or their organization. If you haven't already invested some energy in elevating your professional identity beyond one company or one role. Yes. And then you leave there.

Trena 21:19

That's right.

Allison 21:20

Other people aren't remembering all the things that you've done and putting that into their own, formula for, oh, allison helps people think bigger about their careers. And when I was leading media relations for Pepsi, my whole identity was media relations expert and pR for Unilever is when I left there I was like, oh, what am I without this job? And yeah. After, over 25 years in corporate, when I left, I was like, I know exactly what I am now. But I hadn't done what I'm telling you to do. And I'm just saying don't do what I did.

Trena 22:02

Yes.

Allison 22:02

Go ahead and start. You don't need permission from anyone to change the headline on your LinkedIn profile.

Trena 22:10

That's right. And also one of the first things I would encourage people to do is create a personal website. If you're the head of media for Pepsi, that's okay. You can still have Allison lane.com and plant your flag, create your own personal brand that is separate from Pepsi. Then when you go to Unilever, it still stands. And then if you do go independent, you've created you know, your castle. You have a brand, a profile, a place people can go to, to understand who you are. A place where you can start building SEO, building email subscribers and things like that, that will help you if you do go independent. So, I think it is important to build that profile, adjacent to the company. But have a personal brand identity.

Allison 23:04

In the olden days, back when I was in all these roles, it was unusual for someone to establish themselves as separate. Even when I was, so it's Quaker, which Pepsi then purchased. Employees were not allowed to talk to journalists. This was before social media. Now, everything's different. So if you came up, in the 90s, like when I did. Other people have to give you the stamp of approval first. And I'm just here to say, that doesn't exist anymore, so you can forget that. Just set that aside. That's not a filter that we have to go through anymore. So, if you are leading learning and development at an organization. And so you already report to the head of HR and the head of HR reports to somebody else and on. And you are used to getting approval for doing the thing. This is something you don't need approval for. Because no one's in charge of you. Except you.

Trena 24:09

Yeah. And if you're pitching publishers, if you're submitting to definitely traditional publishers and also hybrid publishers. One of the first things we do is have a look at your profile. So we'll go, I'll go look at your LinkedIn profile. How many followers do you have? How active are you? I'll go look at your website. If you're a speaker, are you speaking to major corporations or are you in the very early stages of developing your speaking career? Publishers are assessing you based on whatever they can find. So, you might as well curate what people are going to look at through your website and your social media. And position yourself in a way that's going to be most appealing. Fundamentally, what publishers are wondering is do they have an audience already who's interested in what they have to say? Are they real experts on this topic? Are they influencers on this topic?

Allison 25:09

And that doesn't mean that you should put influencer on your LinkedIn headline. We want you to be influential.

Trena 25:16

Be

Allison 25:16

influential,

Trena 25:17

not an

Allison 25:17

influencer.

Trena 25:19

That's

Allison 25:20

right. Yeah,.

Trena 25:20

That's right.

Allison 25:21

The other thing Trena, I wanted to share is that a boutique hybrid, like a premium hybrid, like Page Two. The timelines are shorter. Or it could be depending on how far along you are in building your brand. But if you want to be speaking at the annual conference of the conference goers next year. Then you could actually have a book out by then if you have all your poop in a group now. But a traditional publisher will not be able to do that. I had somebody recently say, I have a speaking engagement in March, and I was like girl, it's December.

Trena 26:03

That's true. And so I will say for us, we only publish about 50, 55 books a year. So we're curating a list. We we're looking for the best possible submissions that come to us, and we're booked quite far out. So right now we're looking, we only have I think 15 openings for next year for books needing to be published in 2027, next year. So we're booked quite far out. There are definitely hybrid publishers who can race a book out, but that's not really how we do things. We take our time. We believe a book is meant to grow your business for five, 10 years, it's not something to be raced out. It has to be done well, and we don't want to cut corners in its development. And it just does take a certain amount of time. And then if we're selling into brick and mortar stores, there's just a very specific sales cycle that the stores follow and require. Barnes and Noble, for instance is making buying decisions, eight, nine months before a book is even in the market. So they're buying books that aren't printed yet. And I think a lot of first time authors just don't understand that. And we often hear, oh, I want this book out in six months. And there are people who will do it, but that's just not our approach.

Allison 27:36

I'm so glad to hear you say that you have a selection process and if you're thinking what is the selection process? I urge you to go to page two.com. Back slash submissions because the questions on that page are specific marketing questions. These are not questions that you can just ad lib. There. Questions Like, how will you measure the book's success? What are some ways you're currently connecting with the people you hope will read your book? It's not a fill in the blank, let me open this up and explain it. These responses are for my clients, usually copy and pasted from the book proposal. If you're not accustomed to the book proposal, a book proposal is a business plan and a sales plan for your book and for you. So, you've seen people go on Shark Tank and the Sharks say, I like the idea. I don't see the market for it. They're not saying, this isn't marketable. They're saying, you have not proven to me that a marketing exists. Or it doesn't seem like you understand where the market is. That's your job as the author. Yes. And that's exactly what I see these questions on page two, website asking.

Trena 29:01

That's right. It's all about the author's positioning what we've been talking about. Does the author know who they're for? How they're going to support that reader? How the book is different from everything else in the market? And if you can put the time and thought into answering those questions and you really know who you're for. Then we're excited to have a look at the submission. We've made those questions more and more complex and added more over the years, specifically to screen people out. We think you need to understand those things in order to proceed with a book.

Allison 29:39

So, so smart. And when you have those responses as an expert who wants to pitch your debut book, it actually helps you get clearer about what your next five years is. Because even though the term is book proposal, it's really a business plan and a marketing plan for you for the next three to five years. when I work with people to develop their proposals, they say, the publisher said this is the best proposal they've ever seen. Like, Yeah,'cause they can cut and paste from it for all of the book's marketing. But also, we already started implementing most of it because most of it is about you. It's not even about the book. The book will have its own launch. Plan and tactical steps. But the book is a door opener for what's next for you. So, let's make that work. I love that you said that there, that you review and that you turn people down because many people think, oh, a hybrid, they just want to know what I have and then they'll charge me more or less depending on how much support they have to give me. But page two isn't doing that. You're really a traditional publisher with a different business plan.

Trena 31:06

Yes, we're curating a list. And I hear from authors all the time who say, I've spoken with five other companies and I felt like everyone else was just trying to sell me something. And this is a different kind of conversation because you're giving me feedback and telling me what's working, what could be different. There are a lot of hybrids, who are their business model is dealing in volume. They're signing as many contracts as they can sign. And it's all about scale. That's just not our model.

Allison 31:43

yeah. Wonderful to have options. That's the great thing. Yeah, that's great. Exactly. If anything away from today, you have options. Publishing has so many paths now and you get to be in charge of that. You used to be there was one path, traditional or just you at Kinko's. Making your own book and slapping your own cover on it. So Trena, you see a lot of launch and marketing activities from people who don't have a book out yet or they are ready to sell their book and have their launch. What's something that used to work that doesn't work anymore?

Trena 32:30

That's a great question. What doesn't work anymore? Posting on social media over and over about your book. One of our authors, Ron Tight is brilliant and hilarious. And he calls that pitch slapping. Like people just pitching their followers, their book over and over. I think people just tune it out. That's not adding value. You've got to be sharing useful information related to the book, inviting a conversation, helping people learn through the marketing of the book, Um, adding value.

Allison 33:09

Social media is not a marketing strategy. It's tough to understand, but your social media activity is not a marketing plan. Marketing is the whole pizza.

Trena 33:23

That's

Allison 33:23

right. Social media is a slice. Publicity is a slice. The thing about social media is that's great for awareness amongst the people who already follow you. It's not great for organic growth reaching the people who don't know you yet, but should. And also amongst the people who follow you, say you have a thousand people who follow you. 3% of the people who follow you will be given access to your content, will it even be shown your content? That's a great

Trena 33:56

point.

Allison 33:57

The other 97% won't even be shown it because that's the way social media works now. You can't depend on that. So that's why a marketing plan has slices and we want you to have a plan of which slice is going to really help you go bigger.

Trena 34:18

yes.

Allison 34:19

Trena, what's one thing that you see people doing now that you think, oh, if only everybody did this.

Trena 34:25

Well, it's not sexy. But I maintain that one of the best assets an author can have for launching a book successfully is an email list of people who have opted in to receive your content. Because that you can control. You can't control what the algorithms are going to do with your social media posts. But if you have developed a significant email list over time and it can take years, that is an incredible tool for launching a book because your notes that you send about the books pre-order availability and the book being available for purchase land in their inboxes. They are opening your emails ideally and those are more likely to convert to sales. So I would say, thinking about building an email newsletter really early, long before there's a book, years before there's a book.

Allison 35:29

Right. The steps between someone liking your content on social and following you to book. There are so many other opportunities to serve those people. If you think, oh, I'm just going to go and write the book because they must want the book. Maybe the person who wants your genius wants to buy a ticket to the conference that you're getting paid$20,000 to keynote. And maybe the book is the bonus that they take away, but maybe it's not the book they want. Maybe it's the tips in between that you're going to email them. Or they're such an supporter and fan of yours that when they hear your book's coming out, they're not only going to pre-order it. They're going to say, can I be on your launch team? And if you don't know what a book launch team is. Let me tell you, that is not your friends and family. Your friends and family they're not connected to the audience who needs you. I'm sure your sister would love to post once or twice about your book. But if she's not already speaking to the audience who needs you but doesn't know you yet, then that won't get you anywhere. That'll just be sisterly love.

Trena 36:49

Yeah.

Allison 36:50

Give people choices. If they're already leaning in and they like you, give them a little bit more in a way that's easy for you. If you're not ready to establish your own website yet, how about a LinkedIn newsletter? A LinkedIn newsletter lets people say, I like you and I want LinkedIn to email me anytime you create a LinkedIn newsletter is essentially articles that you subscribe to and it's free. And it's one of the four ways LinkedIn shows your content to people who don't already follow you. Because it's fueled by SEO. And it's free. Do that. Trena, what should people do next? If you have 15 spots left for next year before they get to that submissions page, what should they do?

Trena 37:40

They should go and read. Write a Must Read by AJ Harper.

Allison 37:45

Okay, we'll put that

Trena 37:46

in

Allison 37:46

the

Trena 37:46

shownotes.

Allison 37:48

I want you to know you here, you're investing in yourself. You know that you are in charge of your next chapter and the next chapter after that, and only you. We're here to show you that there are multiple ways and we want you to get there faster. It starts with you naming where that end is. You can't build a roadmap if you don't know what your destination is. So, start there and work backward. Your book is a stop on the way to that destination and we can't wait to see what you've got. DM me on LinkedIn. I'm at Allison Lane Lit. Let me know what you're thinking of writing. For goodness sake, I'm there every single day and Trena is too'cause that is how I met her. Because I subscribed to your content and I was like, oh, we got to meet.

Trena 38:44

Thanks for getting in touch. It was a pleasure.