Journey to Well
We are not created to do this healing journey or life alone. In fact, it was Bessle Van Der Kolk who expertly shared “healing happens in the presence of an empathic witness”. That is the heart of this podcast & my business : to witness. You can expect a plethora of conversations on nervous system regulation, breathwork, human design & astrology, cycle alignment, energy & spirituality work and so much more. We are all on a journey back home to ourselves, rediscovering our innate power within & I am thrilled to take this journey to well with you. be well xx
Journey to Well
Realigning Medicine: A Conversation with Dr. Jordan Barber on Pain, Presence, and Holistic Healing
What if your chronic pain isn't just a physical problem? What if healing requires more than just treating symptoms? In this captivating conversation, Dr. Jordan Barber—acupuncturist, chronic pain specialist, and self-described "heretic"—challenges conventional thinking about health and healing.
Beginning with his personal transformation from IT professional to acupuncturist after experiencing severe health issues in his twenties, Dr. Barber takes us on a journey through the four pillars of Chinese medicine: diet/lifestyle, herbs, physical treatments (including acupuncture), and movement practices. He explains how these elements work together to address not just symptoms but the interconnected nature of our physical, emotional, and energetic bodies.
The discussion delves deep into pelvic floor dysfunction—a condition affecting 60% of women and 16-20% of men—revealing how seemingly unrelated issues like ankle alignment, diaphragm function, and emotional trauma can manifest as pain throughout the body. "The issue is in the tissues," Dr. Barber explains, describing how our bodies physically store emotions and memories, sometimes releasing them years later during treatment.
Perhaps most compelling is Dr. Barber's perspective on the practitioner-patient relationship. He distinguishes between "listening to respond" and "listening to understand"—a subtle but transformative difference that changes healthcare outcomes. His book "Realigning Medicine" emerged from this philosophy, guiding practitioners to authentic connection rather than formulaic approaches.
For anyone struggling with chronic pain, feeling unseen by healthcare providers, or seeking a more holistic understanding of their body, this episode offers profound insights and practical wisdom. Dr. Barber's parting message—"Demand more"—serves as both permission and encouragement to advocate for comprehensive care that honors the complex interconnectedness of our human experience.
Have you been settling for partial solutions to persistent health issues? What might be possible if you approached healing from a more integrated perspective?
Connect with Dr. Jordan on IG @jbarberlac or follow up with his book, Realigning Medicine! Worth the read!!
Let's connect on social media! You can find me @ _journeytowell
Be sure to reach out and say hello 🤍
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be well, my friend
xx Hannah
Hello, welcome back to the podcast Journey to Well. So today I am joined with Dr Jordan Barber. He is a chronic pain expert and acupuncturist based in New York, which I love that's where I came from. So we are going to be talking about a wide variety of things Obviously, your background, Jordan, and overall health and wellness and kind of other ways that we can advocate for ourselves outside of just going to the doctor, going to the ortho. So before we dive into the conversation, I would love for you to introduce yourself what hats you want to kind of put on. In the introduction I also will say Jordan is a 5'1 emotional generator in human design. So you know we talk a lot about human design on the podcast, so I want to throw that out in the beginning. But, Jordan, thank you so much for coming on and tell us who you are, what you love, what you're passionate about.
Speaker 2:Well, Hannah, I'm super excited and I guess it should be a disclaimer that 5.1 is going to be quite clear and if anyone knows about 5.1,.
Speaker 1:you know the heretic is there, my mom's a 5.1, so I can't wait to talk about that with you.
Speaker 2:I love to explore a lot of that. So you know, I guess the 5.1, let's start with that because I grew up as a punk rocker between St Mark's Place down in New York City and on Long Island. So right there that was. That, you know, desire to find something deeper and to make change Right Grew up in the it world. Um, I had my first job at 15 in a company that was going ipo.
Speaker 2:During the dot-com boom went through 9 11. I was there and decided to make a life change because of a lot of health issues not from 9 11, thankfully, but you know the lifestyle that was leading at 20, 21 years old down in the financial district, you know, wasn't healthy for me and a lot of stuff transpired. But at the end of the day I wound up in integrated medicine because acupuncture after surgeries and everything else was the only thing that gave me relief and I became interested. And a little background there too, my, you know, as, like a 15, 16 year old, the job I wanted to have was to be a massage therapist and a tarot reader.
Speaker 2:Hey right, which you know is a very teenage kind of idea, but because I received medical massage because my back was always hurting and stuff because I was in front of computers or I was in mosh pits I had insurance that covered it and I thought it was like profound and I really loved how, like you know, there was like a spiritual side of connecting with people and I was always a very spiritual kid and I was always into tarot cards and I read for everyone in high school and I was like if I could just do this, this would be great.
Speaker 2:And I lost myself a bit, you know, in my early twenties, working in the financial districts and in IT, and thankfully, you know, talk about the gift of 9-11, all the tragedies in my life have gifts. The gift, you know, was that it allowed me to reconnect and find myself and set me on the right journey, because I was craving the things that I lost and I was aware of it. So I found it, you know, now, at 45, you know, 20 years, in some form of clinical practice. So, yeah, that's that's the abnormal version of my story, but I think that's the better one for a five one introduction.
Speaker 1:I love that. We want the abnormal. We don't want the boring. We like the different. What was going on with your back? You said acupuncture was the only thing that helped.
Speaker 2:So my back was pretty good. I mean, I just always had a campaign, a campaigns just from like computers and I, you know I rode my bike a lot and I fell off the bike a lot. You know I did martial arts, all these different things, but when I started really working in a financial district I was living off of, you know, food carts and you know steak dinners and going to windows on the world you know, every Friday and drinking like a fish. And I grew up in the music scene and I'm still partially involved in it and you know those late nights were rough.
Speaker 2:I was burning the candle up all fence shall we say, you know, I was in bands, I toured, I DJed, I did all those things. So there wasn't much left in that tank and I started having a lot of sinus issues. I was sick from like November to it had to be summer, even spring, because allergies would be bad. I had sinus surgeries and all these things. Nothing worked um. Within a month, and actually I woke up from a dream with the word acupuncture. I obviously knew what it was, but I didn't know. It was like a real thing. That would be like 2002, somewhere around there. Maybe I'm thinking, and you know, I didn't even know how to find like, is that a real thing, like you know? So remember googling and I found a school and I figured well, if they teach it, they have to be real, they won't kill me. Um, so I went to like the professional clinics at the school, which later became my school, and, um, within a month, like 80 percent of my symptoms were gone. Wow.
Speaker 2:So you know it's huge and it was diet, lifestyle, some herbs and acupuncture.
Speaker 1:Okay, okay. So for people I mean I just said this before we hit record living in this world like I grew up, my mom actually worked at an acupuncturist's office. So I grew up like I had acupuncture when I was in high school and I grew up knowing, knowing about it what it is. But for those of us that are listening that maybe, like you have heard the word but you're like what the heck actually is it, maybe you even know you stick needles in your body but like what is the point of it? What does it actually do? Could you give a brief intro for that?
Speaker 2:You know, sure Besides the needles yeah, besides, everyone thinks of the needles and it's like being a dentist, right. It's like how do you sell dentistry, right?
Speaker 2:You know, it's like you go because you need it, right? Yeah, you know, in the US the term acupuncture has become a larger term to describe a profession, which is the profession that encompasses East Asian medicine or Chinese medicine. There's arguments of like what words we're using. We used to use the word oriental medicine, but that word is becoming a bit passe and we don't like it anymore and we don't tend to like it anymore. So we say there's four pillars to the medicine, diet and lifestyle being a major pillar.
Speaker 2:What you put in your mouth, so eating, herbs, et cetera, things that you do to the body, so that can be body work, manipulations of the bones and joints. Acupuncture, something you do to the body, something called moxibustion, which is burning of mugwort and medicinal herbs on or near the body to heat it. It burns in the infrared spectrum, so it has deep effects. And also the oils that are secreted from it, increased leukocytes, right or white blood cells in the body. So they have all these different effects on the body. And then the last is something that we call qigong, now a tradition called daoyin, which qigong means to work one's qi, which is what we loosely call energy in English, but energy is like the worst word if you ask me, but we all know what we mean at least. But ultimately, in medicine, energy is much more about metabolism, but in a larger sense of how things interrelate and have effects on each other. Right, so we work the metabolism in a relationship of things, including the subtle energies, but as well as you know how our nervous system's functioning and everything else.
Speaker 2:And then dahlia means to guide and lead, or guiding and leading the body into the direction it needs to go. So these are more meditative or exercises, think of it like yoga, yoga asanas with breath and other things. All of those together is the profession of acupuncture. And then you have the varieties of Korea, japan, thailand, which has a mixture of Ayurveda and Chinese medicine, tibetan medicine, which is Chinese medicine plus its native medicine turned into Tibetan medicine, and there's all these varieties, but they have a strong root. So there's these. You know there's a core of Chinese medicine and it spreads out. So you will always kind of get a separate answer from everyone you ask.
Speaker 2:Yeah that would be the closest that everyone would probably agree to.
Speaker 1:I mean, you just taught me a lot, I didn't know all that.
Speaker 2:But there are needles too. There are needles.
Speaker 1:Very, very cool. I mean I've definitely had acupuncture done. My massage therapist also does acupuncture, so more of just the needle side of things, I didn't know that there was the three pillars. So when you and I know that you have your own kind of brick and mortar boutique acupuncture office, well, before I ask questions, tell me about that.
Speaker 2:Well, I love using the word boutique, because it's just it's.
Speaker 1:I love that you use it.
Speaker 2:And you know the reason why I use it is so I have. I have several different offices. At one point I had nine locations. Um, I've pared down because that is not for me. Um, there's a less stress that comes with that. Um, so I have four integrative medicine offices focused on orthopedics and rehab. Integrative meaning we have physical therapy, medical doctors, massage therapists and we create care plans and help people, and that's out on Long Island. But for me, I wanted a boutique practice, a practice where I can do the things I love to do outside of the insurance industry, because my other offices are part of the insurance industry, because we need to give people access and if their insurance is paying for it, then we have to have a way. But we also have to have a way to have fun, especially when the insurance industries are not interested.
Speaker 2:My boutique clinic is focused on treatment of pain still, which is my doctoral focus, but with a subspecialty of pelvic floor dysfunction. And you know I take a wide definition of pelvic floor. Pelvic floor is anything from your diaphragm down to your knee, because all those things have an effect on the true pelvic floor. So, and pelvic floor dysfunction can be sexual dysfunction, painful intercourse, urinary issues, bladder issues, prolapse, you know, just pain in the pelvic floor region, numbness and these things. They're getting more awareness.
Speaker 2:60% of women will experience pelvic floor dysfunction in their life. About 16 to 20% of males. The differentiating factors because of pregnancy. There's a lot more that can happen. So there's a lot more room for things to go awry. But there's more awareness being focused on it now, but there's still not a lot of practitioners out there focusing on it. You see it big in the physical therapy world, but for me I focus on dry needling, which is essentially just still using the needles to regulate the nervous system, regulate or break free of fascia scar tissue in the pelvic floor, as well as decrease hypertonicity, which are tight muscles, and also innervate muscles that are no longer being innervated because of neurological dysfunction. So there's a lot we can do with the needles and before anyone asks yes, the needles go down there, so not all the time, but it's a question, you know. Uh, people are very thankful if you can make the pain go away pretty quickly.
Speaker 1:Yeah, um, does something have to happen for this pain to occur, like obviously you spoke of pregnancy? Um, does something happen or can?
Speaker 2:A lot of my pelvic floor dysfunction that I I've seen, especially early on, which got me interested in it was adolescence and people in their twenties. Obviously you know, especially in adolescence, no history of pregnancy. They were athletes and so think I mean we know, if you do a squat, there's you're, you're using your core and you're tightening that pelvic floor and you're engaging those hamstrings and everything else. Well, what if it doesn't release? What if you also have some postural issues? What if you have some diaphragm issues? And because the diaphragm think of the pelvic floor as the opposite diaphragm they contract and relax opposite of each other.
Speaker 2:So we're supposed to, and if one's tight, the other one doesn't release. So you start seeing these weird anomalous symptoms, whether there's pain or numbness, you know, or you know sensations of bladder fullness, you know urgency, need to pee, but like then there's nothing there and it's just the nerves just misfiring because the muscles are tight around them. So I'm seeing it. But because of the lack of awareness and if you go to your gp, your general practitioner, they're just like I don't know, maybe they'll send you to pt and hopefully the pt identifies it, but it might also look like back pain and so we don't think about it.
Speaker 2:that's's going to be my question yeah, well that's why I take the wider view, because I say the pelvic floor is from that diaphragm to the knee and I can make it the ankle if you really want, because of how it affects the biomechanics and kinetic chain. But you know.
Speaker 1:You're speaking my language. I told you I've been having back, kind of chronic like you deal with chronic back pain. It started when I was younger. I was doing back squats at the gym and just went down the wrong way, felt like I just pulled every muscle in my back and ever since, you know, we have flare ups and I've been in a terrible one the past few months and then I was walking down the stairs completely sober, mind you, in the dark, though, skipped the last step, sprained my ankle, and we've always my mom and I have always really talked about the alignment of the ankle, and I would love to hear your perspective of this, because one of the things that I we kind of talked about like what, what is this like underlying topic of the podcast, what do we want it to be?
Speaker 1:And one of the things that I really love talking about is is the interconnectedness of everything, and you've talked about a few times you've already said your nervous system and regulating your nervous system and and relaxing the muscles, and you know things firing in the same way, and so my mom and I have talked about the alignment of your ankles. Could that affect the alignment of your hips and your posture, which then affects the alignment of your back and all of that. So it was interesting that you said ankles.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I mean 100%. I mean all you have to do is stand up without your shoes on, or I mean even with your shoes on, and roll an ankle in and see how your hip shifts. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Now, if your ankle is stuck in that position, every time you step you're reinforcing that shift and then what'll happen is the fascia will tighten, that stuff that looks like when you eat chicken or some meat and you see that thin stuff around it. That's called fascia. Well, that stuff is essentially the thing that separates the muscles and allows there to be glide and also creates a stabilization network, and it's a single sheath. It wraps around every organ, every nerve, every single thing. Right, there's main sheaths of it, but they're all interconnected and there's a theory called the biotensegrity theory, which is the interconnectedness and how all these little things can play out in larger systems within the body. But certainly an ankle injury, especially if someone's you know running after that or you know still being, you know, athletic after spraining their ankle, which is very common will throw off their back and then they might have hip pain, you know, and no one thinks about the ankle, and you can release the hip and then it comes back.
Speaker 1:It's like well, it's because the ankle is off, which is so interesting, Again, you know, talking about like your doctor and even like an orthopedic doctor. I mentioned it to them and they just have. They're like, oh well, I wouldn't worry about that right now. Like, just focus on your back getting better and nothing. And I don't say that with hatred or anything. I mean we can have a whole conversation about like education and the traditional medicine system and all medical fields, but nothing bad with malice. I'm not saying that with malice, but it's just another kind of looping back to the importance of knowing your other options. And that was one of the reasons that I wanted to have you on this podcast and have a conversation with you, because I don't think that we have a lot of education and a lot of opportunity to, I don't know, maybe awareness I don't really know what it is. Maybe you have a better idea just being in your field so I mean there's a lot I can say.
Speaker 2:you know, when I first started out, um, the medical community was not interested in acupuncture. Wow, you know, the most accepting people were just kind of like I don't know, know, I don't think you'll die, and that was like basically like good luck. I have seen a massive shift Now. Mind you, I'm in a metropolitan area, so there's a market demand for it, stronger, stronger consumer demand for any integrative modality, but acupuncture being one of the larger in-demand modalities right now. So market demand does dictate what the the where the attention goes. So they're more curious and patients just say well, you know, I got better One of my major things, more and more now. I mean, you know I mentioned I have integrative offices out East on Long Island, but in, in my boutique clinic, everything that I do is focused on care plans.
Speaker 2:I want to know, especially for pelvic health. I want to know who your pelvic floor therapist is, because it's not me alone that's going to help you, you know. Or who your urologist is or your gyno, whoever the referring physician is. I want to make sure that you have a team and what I realized is the more that we work in teams, the more I find clinicians that see the value of integrative approaches, where we become much more outcome based and we become much more focused on the patient, and it's just a totally different way of doing medicine right. So through that becomes awareness and more and more clinicians want to know what the successful people are doing and they realize they're focusing on their patients outcomes as opposed to focusing on their bottom line, and outcome always feeds bottom line. You're going to make money if you get people better, so it's like you don't have to focus on that If you can get people better and people have a really positive experience. And this is one of the things that I wrote about in my book, which is more focused on practice management, but it's really about the patient journey. Successful practitioners have really good patient journeys and what I mean by the journey is from the moment they hear about you to the last time they talk to you or they leave your clinic discharged or your coaching practice or whatever it is.
Speaker 2:It should always be on brand and not in that like kitschy way of be on brand, but like what's your brand? If your brand is, I actually care, it should feel like you always care right. So that means not, you know, making sure that your front desk handles them well, or that the communication is consistent, and that you're attentive, that you follow desk handles them well, or that the communication is consistent and that you're attentive, that you follow up or follow through, that you refer out when necessary or whatever's necessary so that they always feel cared for. And I feel that the more people implement something like that, where they focus on that patient's journey, we see changes across. You know, I mean we could say humanity, but I don't want to say I'm, I'm, I'm not, I'm not saving humanity. You know that's. I don't think that's my, my, maybe that's my five one, who knows. But you know we start changing a system and we're changing it by outcomes as opposed to fighting, you know, unitedhealthcare or whoever we want to fight you know, because we can't change it.
Speaker 2:We have to change it on that local level.
Speaker 1:Yeah, one of the things that you said that I think I quoted you on a podcast that maybe is coming out this week when we first met was was being passionate about what you do and allowing that passion to come through and and really I mean that's a whole, whole different topic that we don't really need to dive into of like discovering your passion and then and then creating a life and a and a vocation around that. But it really stuck out to me when I first met you because it's just something obviously that really comes through just speaking to you and and hearing you speak about your business and the way that you speak about your business and the clients and how you. This ties in perfectly to how you are showing up for your clients or your patients or whatever you want to call them your people and and when you are passionate about what you do and when you believe in what you do, and, obviously, your story finding acupuncture as the tool that really helped you the most out of your pain and really shifted the trajectory of your personal life. That's very similar to my story. Of course, the tools that I use in my business are the ones that made the biggest difference in my life and in my healing journey.
Speaker 1:But I think that when we incorporate those into our full life, that's where that passion comes through and that's where we can really show up. It's not like you said, it's not showing up for the bottom line or just showing up like, oh, this is, you know, this is just another patient, but you're really interested in their full health, which is really the direction that hopefully everyone's going. I don't know, but integrative. You keep using the word integrative and holistic. Like all of these words that we use, it's not just about the, it's not just about the back pain and oh, let me stick a needle in it and then you're going to be cured.
Speaker 2:Right, and you know, and I really appreciate you, you know identifying that and you know quoting me. That's cool, it's like a citation, but but you know, passion. Passion is so important on multiple levels that you just talked about. But at the same time, if you don't want to be doing it, why are you doing it? Oh right, like why? And it's one thing to be like well, I got to pay the bills, whatever. It's a job, but these are people's lives. It's not like oh, I go in and make a widget and go home Like I don't really care about the factory.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Right, this is, this is like a profession. And then, when I say this, I'm not just talking about, like acupuncture, I'm talking about healthcare in general. I mean, you could be a Reiki master, it doesn't matter, right, when someone comes to you in pain, right and I'm not saying physical pain, emotional pain or anything else To me, and I can always speak for myself I feel like you have a moral obligation to see them, to hear them, right, to help them or to do the best you can or say, oh, or maybe I can't help you because I just don't have that skillset, but at least, being honest, with them, not take their money.
Speaker 2:And I've realized that the more you're just focused on the patient, the happier you are, the better your practice is. I mean, business rules still apply, but you can do it with heart and passion, as opposed to just saying how do I get more patients on the schedule? You know my first teacher. He told me he's what's called Dao Shi, which is like Chinese, means like Taoist priest, but the word priest is strange because we think of like a Catholic priest. It's not the same connotation. It's someone who's committed to the Tao right, which means that that's their path. And it's like Taoism right, the Tao Te Ching, laoo tzu, all that stuff.
Speaker 2:And he, he always said don't count the patients on the schedule because you'll see them as money. And he said what happens is they don't show up, they cancel, because it's the wrong chi. You know, when we talk about energy, it's the wrong energy. That you're, you're framing that day. It's like, at the end of the day, you can be like oh, I did 20 people's, great. You know, it's perfectly fine to see what your, your outcomes were, but don't come in and be like that's 20 people.
Speaker 2:You know $300 a pop, that's. You know like that's. You know thousands of dollars today because, you'll find out, you only made a thousand, which is still great money, but you know it's the wrong intent and everything you'll do becomes that intent. And for so many people that I've coached or done consulting, that was like one of the first things I would have to change is to stop looking at patients like dollar signs. Right, and it's hard to when the insurance industry gives you a dollar sign, because there's some insurances that give me, you know, 30 bucks and that doesn't cover payroll, and there's others that give me 300 bucks, you know. Thankfully, somewhere in the middle we hit an even number if we, you know, can like balance out that schedule, but it's hard not to when.
Speaker 1:That's how they've created it and it comes through differently because I've again, I've seen a lot of medical professionals in the past year and my favorites are are the ones that are very present. I think presence is a huge thing actually listening and seeing someone and listening to their story and, again, like you said, checking in with them emotionally and physically and, you know, checking in on all levels and the practitioners that feel very present and feel you can feel that again energy. You can feel if somebody cares and you can feel if somebody is just kind of checking you off as okay, this was my third patient of the day, let's go on to the fourth. You can truly feel that and I would also argue that that really does play a role in your healing journey. Like I would, I would argue that you have good success rates because you are passionate about what you do, because you genuinely care, and it's not just about the insurance payout or you know the-.
Speaker 2:Yeah if you have passion, it means you're also reading all the papers or the newest books, so you're going to have an understanding of that domain and you're going to be excited when someone comes in with something in that domain, because you're into it you know, so you're going to have better outcomes, you know, because that's what you want to do, and you know.
Speaker 2:You talked about seeing and hearing, and that's something I've been saying a lot on podcasts, because that's the buzzwords, you know. To see a person here, we all want to do that, you know. And then we talked about trauma informed therapy. That's a buzzword now too, you know. It's very valid stuff, but I find that people are like, oh, you know, I try to see and hear them and you know, and I'm also trauma informed and I meet them where they're at, and but when you actually talk to them, like, well, how's that going? It's like, well, you know, I give them space to talk about their stuff, and that's not exactly what it means.
Speaker 2:When you want to connect with something or someone, in this case, you need to actually connect with them. So it's the difference between, you know, listening to respond versus listening to understand. Right, and a lot of us listen to respond, especially as healthcare practitioners, because we're trained to be protocolized, right. So even if we don't want to, it's like oh, you fit out. That's this trigger point referral pattern. I know exactly what it is. I'm tired of your story, now let's go and that's the wrong intent and even though you're trying, it happens to all of us. So I'm not like knocking anyone, you know, or they're. They're sharing their trauma and you're trying to understand how it's going, but at the same time you're like you can get over this. You know in your narrative, in your head, right, and you're like you, you're not seeing them for who they are.
Speaker 2:You're just trying to move forward. You're just trying to respond or actualize, as opposed to listening to understand, as opposed to listening to understand. And then when you can understand someone, you know how to engage them, you can give them a response that they can hear. Right, because you have to understand them to know how to speak to them so they can hear exactly what you're trying to say so that you can lead them to health or whatever's necessary.
Speaker 2:And I think, because of how our lives are and because even, like you know, in the spiritual world we use the term spiritual bypassing, it's like we're starting to use these terms now, all these buzzwords we're actually bypassing what they actually stand for, you know, and it's like I need a new term for it. I don't know, it's like cultural bypassing or something, but it's. It's a major crux of healthcare and the insurance industry doesn't give anyone time to actually sit and connect with people, so we throw that out. But people that are more integrative and allied, that are a little outside of that, usually have the time. So it's something that, like you know, I've already said it now on your podcast. So I'd love people to understand that and be like wow, how do I? Even even in your own life, you're having problems in a relationship when you're arguing. Next time, seek to hear what they're saying before you try to formulate the response. Don't even have that response you had. Just why are you saying that? Let me understand it fully and try.
Speaker 1:You are like just lighting me up so much right now, and I am not saying I am perfect.
Speaker 2:I am not at all. I'm definitely not perfect, not at all.
Speaker 1:This is much easier said than done, and I will also add that it's so much easier when my sister comes to me and tells me you know, I have this argument with mom, or I have the you know argument with my husband, whatever. So much easier to see this pattern in other people than with yourself. But isn't that the I mean, just the lesson? The underlying lesson of our entire life is learning how to be present and how to listen, to listen rather than listen to respond, and we get so stuck in the yes, I hear you, but you're not hearing business. When we're able to practice this, then you attract more people that also practice this.
Speaker 2:So I mean everything is so connected and you keep away the bad patients. Yeah, they don't want to, you know.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:It's true, energetically, you, I don't get bad patients. You know I don't, I don't, I maybe I'm weird, I don't get that patients. I, you know there might be patients that I'm and they're there for shoulder pain.
Speaker 2:It's not a big deal, um you see the humanity of it right you know, and then they can't really have hatred towards them, even if they're a little curmudgeon, right, or whatever it's like. Yeah, you know I understand why and it's fine, and they're not angry at me, I didn't cause it. And and also to your point that you were mentioning, the one thing that I always use is the Stoics say that the only thing you can control is yourself, which means how you act, how you think you can't control anyone else. You can't make anyone do anything. You could try, but they might not do it. So the moment we start realizing that, if we can control ourselves which means how I hear people, how I choose to interact with people, the words I choose to use everything changes, you know, and stoicism is very hard. So, like you said, easier said than done. Yeah.
Speaker 2:But these things are so crucial to medicine and I actually really love this conversation because we're talking about things that people don't think apply to medicine. Yes, right, and there is an energetic side of it. So you've seen my chart, so you probably understand where all this is coming from.
Speaker 1:So no, no well I yes yes and um, absolutely there's, there's so many pieces of this. We really think that a lot of things. I mean, one of the reasons that I love somatic work is because we think that the mind and the body are so disconnected and they're actually so connected and we think you know, like these, how we're relating to people, like what does that have to do with medicine or acupuncture? But really it's all connected and we're all connected and and and and. Yes, your five one line is is showing, but it's really that, right, the five one profile is really being able to bring it's kind of like this.
Speaker 1:I have a note from our conversation. You said, yeah, the five one profile is here to fuck shit up, and I'm like, absolutely, that is the five one profile and how we see things, where they're really here to challenge how we see things and how we're doing things currently, and and I mean that just shows so much in your life and your story of of how and your business right of like how you're really bringing this completely different perspective, the people that are doing it and bringing this whole new way of thinking, and I so, I so appreciate it, because we need to have more of these conversations and we need to have more of this conversation of how things are interconnected, even pain we haven't talked too much about, too much about the pain aspect of on the podcast.
Speaker 2:But we just did.
Speaker 1:True, true. Well, let's make that connection Like how you treat outwardly, you treat a lot of the physical symptoms right. Pelvic, especially pelvic, which, if you know anything about emotions, we hold emotions mostly in our pelvic area. I've always kind of learned I always speak of that as, like we as women hold emotions in our pelvic because that's our center of creation, but honestly it's men too, because that's your center of where you give the 50% of creation right.
Speaker 2:I mean, you can go if you want to get energetic and you know, creation happens there on both genders or sexes, right? So no matter what, that root chakra is there. But then you know, unfortunately, if you look at statistics, statistics, there's a lot of trauma that occurs at both sexes early on, when they're young, and then there's also, through maturation, a lot of embarrassment of sexual mature maturation. Um, and first sexual experiences, even if they're positive, or you know, take a woman who's grown faster and matured faster than their, you know, classmates, you know, or a boy that maybe had a unfortunate erection in class, or something like that, you know, and these things, you get these somatic anchorings and all these other things and you get shame and we hold it in certain areas and at the same time you can hold, there's a phrase, the issue is in the tissues. So, like you can, you can hold, you know you can be in a car accident and maybe, you know, you banged up your shoulder a little and it could be a decade later and finally that shoulder releases and you suddenly go home and you have dreams of the car accident or you start crying on the table, you know, or you, or you have a flashback.
Speaker 2:You know, I had a scar released not too long ago and I had a flashback just from it, and it was nothing crazy, just popped in my head. I was like I haven't thought about that in forever. You know, there's definitely more than we fully understand about how the body, I guess, embodies emotions, you know. So there's a lot when we're talking about pain, and then there's also things called like central sensilitation, which is where, like the central nervous system I'm dumbing it down but the central nervous system will kind of like hold on to pain, even though the peripheral pain signal has been fixed. So you have to like turn down, you know, certain segments of the spinal column or the nervous system, and there's ways of doing it but, essentially, it kind of the volume gets stuck at an 11 and even after you fix the issue, it's like, oh no, there's still pain.
Speaker 2:Right, it's like a phantom limb, almost it's not.
Speaker 2:It's not how it works you know, anyone that's like academic could be like, that's not how it works, trying to make it simple, right, yeah, um, you don't want haters out there, but there there's, there's so many things. But you know, I think when we look at the body it's almost like that hermetic axiom, as above, so below right, there's always reflections right In the body. So it's like we can look at it in a, you know, pure neurological sense and you see these, you know central sensitization issues. But we can also look at at structural issues causing emotional issues, or emotional issues causing structural issues, right, I can give you a great example.
Speaker 2:If you have someone that had emotional issues growing up and maybe they were ashamed, maybe they were too tall staying with the same analogy so they started being more hunched back, you know, or rounded, and they're holding their chest down right and rolled over. You get the rounded shoulders like almost like bad computer posture. We've seen that. Well, what's that do? It sinks the chest in, respiration gets more shallow, the nervous system becomes more sympathetic, right, so it gets more fight or flight. That's because that whole area isn't getting the proper stimulation. You're getting improper respiration exchange or the exchange of carbon dioxide, oxygen, et cetera, and you start having emotional symptoms, anxiety, right, stress issues, stress response, sleeplessness.
Speaker 2:Conversely, you can have an injury that you start protecting and rounding the shoulder and eventually you know you have those things, or you're stuck like that from the emotions and then you start having back pain, right. So there's these, always these reflections, and so when we're looking at pain, you you might come to me for a simple back pain, like your case I was squatting and whatever and it might literally just be structural, but you've had it for how long now? Right, a while, and it keeps coming. I you know, I don't think I could speak for you, but I'm sure there's definitely some fears and other things stuck there. At this point, you know, am I going to be like this? What's it going to be like when I'm 80?
Speaker 2:you know all these things right yeah so we have to address that and it may just address on their own, because if you suddenly don't have that back pain, I guarantee, guarantee they'll go away. Those fears and everything else will drift away with time, right, but there's so much to pain so much and I love that we can actually talk about it on this level as opposed to just talking about structural. You know this muscle, oh absolutely yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:And I think that that's the layer of chronic pain. Is there's so much emotionally that goes into that right, the way that you address yourself, like, oh, I have a bad back, what Like? And I say this, I say it, you know, like, well, I try to be mindful of it, but of not saying, you know, not saying these things, oh, I have a bad back. Or we get stuck in these stories of like, no, I can't bend over to pick that up. Will you go pick that up for me?
Speaker 1:And there's so much fear there, there's so much fear for me I will speak for myself there's a lot of fear of re, re injuring myself and, you know, not wanting to bend over and do the thing and not causing like for me it's a lot of flexion. So anything that you're, that you're bending or you know, and then, and then there's all of the ways that we then, when that's chronic, we then identify as as the pain, so like, oh, I'm just not flexible or I can't. You know I can't do that and and I will speak from I'm, you know, like, I know all of this and I still am stuck in those stories like nobody is perfect, and and there's so much work that we can do, because I I know that I'm stuck in those stories and I know that I'm stuck in the fear and we're working on it, you know.
Speaker 2:But that's the gift of being a healthcare practitioner is you also learn by helping other people. Those are the other reflections you know. So, like you say the same thing about you know these stories and narratives and they happen to me still and I'm acutely aware of them. I have hearing. I have hearing loss from growing up in the music scene and not protecting it.
Speaker 2:You know, I mean I could hear, but my hearing is strange at times and I become more used to being like, oh, I can't hear, oh, I don't want to go to that loud environment because it's hard for me to hear. You know differentiate voices in a loud bar. And I was like, well, there's so many hacks that I have that I can actually go out and hear and stuff. But I got so used to saying I can't hear. And I can, I can hear. I'm not, we're talking, I could hear right now. Right, you know, like there's no problem.
Speaker 2:But it becomes part of my identity, like, oh, you know, you become a curmudgeon about it or you start truncating your life and you, you cut short your happiness. I'm quite sure you can get something off the floor. You might just have to do in a different direction, no problem, you know. Or if you know you got to lift something heavy, you get someone else and you just time it like I'm getting a heavy thing dropped off, make sure someone's around to help me pick it up. Yeah, if I'm getting everything a heavy, something dropped off I'm making sure someone's around too, because I just don't want to blow my back out at this point. You know, like I've learned, I've seen. I've seen enough people injured that I'm like you know I'm 45. Now Let me be a little more wiser. You know I'm done doing, you know, prs on my deadlifts. It's fun, I love it, but, like I also know what my back feels like after that you know I'm like it's not not that important to me
Speaker 1:yeah you know, being careful. Being careful, I mean, isn't it funny how, how, um, how our mindset shifts as we get older? But but being being mindful of the identities and the I. I kind of started off the podcast like what hats do you want to show us today?
Speaker 1:Like being careful of the hats that we fall under and maybe not being careful but being mindful really being mindful of the ways that we self-identify and the ways that we show up, and one of the things that you said oh man, what was it? It was before we hit record, but it was just something. Oh no, maybe it was when we recorded. You said my biggest pains were like my biggest life lessons and my biggest growth opportunities. And really being mindful of the way that we identify, because we can get very stuck right and life is happening to me and I have this back pain or I have this hearing issue and right now I can't go to the bar and I just might as well just stay home, you know, for the rest of my life Like we can get very stuck in the hats that we do allow ourselves to put on. And being mindful of that.
Speaker 2:I speak of the gift of COVID, and at this point we're about five, six years out, right? I don't even know five years, something like that.
Speaker 2:So, most listeners should be able to think about the gift of COVID. Right, it's definitely not a gift. People died. It was a nightmare. 9-11 was not a gift. The trauma and the PTSD that I had was not a gift 20 something, 25 years, 24 years. Now I can say it's a gift because I see the changes it forced in me and for many people, for COVID. It allowed them to see the world in a different way and it's unique for everyone. Or they realized how their life might have not been what they wanted to be and they suddenly got to sit on their couch. They didn't want it, they didn't like it. But then they realized, when they start reintegrating the world like how many people now are like, yeah, I work from home at least one day a week now. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Is that not a gift? To be able to be around your kids or your dog or your loved one you know, or any of these things? Or they shifted their careers, or they started an at-home business that started to flourish, or they just valued their loved ones because they got disconnected from them, you know. So, yeah, you know, I want to be sure. Covid was not a gift. However, there's a gift. However, there's a gift that we could all find in it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't want to rely on you yeah, we, there's always, there's always a silver lining in anything that happens to us. I, I might you know my quote, I think it's tony robbins, but that's where I originally heard it but life is not happening to you, it's happening for you. And how is life happening for you? And really keeping that mindset and that's, you know, that's coming from a place where, like this back thing, pain is a bitch and it's very consuming, so it's not. I think we can say that and be like, oh yeah, life's always happening for me, and assume that it's all roses and sunshine and rainbows. It's not and that's okay, and life is still happening for you. And how is this teaching you and growing you and expanding you? And you know, obviously in my business it's. It's a huge way that I can show up even greater because there's that capacity that's expanded, but it's always happening.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it makes you a better practitioner because you understand suffering, maybe in a different way that your patient's presenting, but you get it.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:When I was young and first started, I had no suffering.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I mean, sure, I had sinus issues, but was that suffering? I thought they were bad and, yeah, they can be debilitating, but I got rid of them. So is that really suffering? No, no big deal. You know, as I've gotten older and have things that I'm like, oh, this might stay, like hearing and other stuff that might just be with me forever. Oh, okay, that changes a lot of things, right, you know, having you know other things that have happened to me, where you know I blog about when I lost my gallbladder and trying to keep it there's a whole blog series over six months of me writing and also gave me some new perspectives of the healthcare system.
Speaker 2:But you know, I thought I was going to die because I was in hospital, yellow, for three days, and you know I never thought about death that close to me, right? Sure, I wrote a will. I don't know I'm supposed to do that, right, you know. But, like you know, I didn't like doing it and but then I was like, oh, I might die, I don't, because I wasn't sure what was happening and it happened to be Jewish holidays, so there was like no doctors in attendance, really, and I'm just sitting in there and it was my birthday and I'm just like yellow, like a highlighter, and I'm like I think I'm going to die, because I didn't think it was my gallbladder, I had no pain and I was like this is a liver tumor.
Speaker 2:That's like I'm going through everything in my head what it could be, you know, and I had an ultrasound and my gallbladder was perfectly fine in the ultrasound. So I was like, oh, I'm going to die. This is, this is death, that's it. You know, I'm shutting down a well, you know, after that I was like I valued a lot of things. So through our suffering we learn to, I think, value other people's suffering as well, and that helps us be more human.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we get an invitation. I always say here's a simpler example. I always say I will never not value a parking spot. After living in the city because I had to pay like $150 a month for a parking spot, not even right in front of my house, and after getting probably $500 worth of parking tickets which then made me pay for a parking spot, I will never not value a parking spot.
Speaker 2:And I don't steal in New York City, if you can get that here. I don't want to tell you what I used to pay, but, yes, you value these things suddenly when, like you know, if you're in the suburbs, no problem finding parking, and it's really value propositions and what we place on things, and these are all first world issues. Yeah, but it's so funny how they affect us, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So tell me, tell me about your book. I'm very curious knowing a little bit about your story and now hearing you, I would. I'm just even more interested in this realigning medicine.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the book's called Realigning Medicine. It came out February 25th, so now it feels like a decade ago. And you know the book came out. I was teaching a practice management class at a graduate level and I got tired of answering the same questions and you know they were the same questions that I was also seeing in people who are already in practice. So I was like I'm going to write a book. It was a very ADHD decision, you know. Write a book. It was a very ADHD decision, you know open head center.
Speaker 2:Yeah, post post fact, I was like we're never gonna get that money back. You know, you don't make money writing books unless you sell gazillions of them. And then and I didn't write it to make money, right, I needed to get it off my chest. But what I also realized is, as I was writing it, I realized a lot of things that I was ready to move past as well.
Speaker 2:You know like I'm like, oh, I know this lesson and now I'm ready to do this again. You know so I was, in a way it was foreshadowing my boutique practice. It's kind of where the boutique practice came from, cause at that time I was like, oh, I was just teaching and I was, you know, running my practices. And you know I realized some things through writing down everything I already knew and learned from other people. So the book, each chapter, is focused on certain intents, like the first one's a discovery chapter. It's I have a vision exercise and you know it's picturing yourself in your ideal practice. So you kind of start formulating a North Star what do you really want? And the analogy I use to describe it is and I give this to you know, my students is like we do the vision exercise and you know you might have this vision of your ideal practice and then you wind up working in a place where you have a lab coat on, you're seeing like 60 people a week, you're making lots of money and you're running around and it's an awesome practice and you're super successful. But your vision was seeing one person, one-on-one for 90 minutes. You're wearing a robe and there was a gong in the corner and you were more like a shaman than the clinician and we're not value like saying like one is better, no, that's what you wanted. So you're actually dissatisfied in your practice. No, that's what you wanted. So you're actually dissatisfied in your practice. And then you're like well, how do I get closer? It doesn't mean, therefore, you got to now destroy everything.
Speaker 2:But we start saying what does it mean to want that? What are those archetypes, what are those emotions? How do we start finding those things? And then we start talking about the patient journey. We look at branding, communication, but not in the marketing branding sense of like fonts and colors and all those things. Go get the marketers for that. I say that in the book, you know. But you know, one of the lessons I learned is I didn't know my practice early on, so I hired a PR team to go do some marketing. You know, this was a long time ago and I was using my last pennies. I just knew I needed to get out there and I didn't know how to do it. And they went and advertised what they thought an acupuncturist was.
Speaker 2:And it was nothing like me and I was like, oh my God, and it was the wrong patients and I felt embarrassed. And then they had me go into events that I wanted nothing to do with and like, and I didn't even know why, because I didn't know how to articulate what I was and make sure that everything that people did for me or the stuff that I put on social is close to how I would communicate and on brand Right and on brands could be very loose of who are you as a practitioner, not.
Speaker 2:What do you think people want to hear you say? Right, and that's what a lot of. What do you think people want to hear you say, right, and that's what a lot of people do? Um, and so the whole book goes through there and it ends with kind of like avoiding burnout and kind of long term, like why are you doing this long term? But what? What is your, your end goal? Because there's not a 401k for most solo practitioners. Eventually, hopefully, you say, oh, maybe I should get one of those or whatever. Right, there's no. So what is the exit strategy? What is that long-term goal? Where are we going with it? But it starts with that very first vision exercise. Right, because that long-term goal is why are we doing this?
Speaker 2:And then the goal is so the book is kind of that and I actually give zero answers. They're literally stories of the craziness and me being a 5'1 and probably saying things that people aren't excited about. But this can apply to a non-clinician who's struggling and not succeeding. I remember when I first started making more money than what I was comfortable with, I started thinking I was committing a crime because I didn't come from money. I never saw money and I was like what do you do with this? I also didn't know what to do with it. I was like the IRS is going to come arrest me. I don't know what I'm doing. It's got to be something wrong and therefore I started kind of self-sabotaging and we do that in self-belief systems, limiting belief systems. I call them set points, but essentially they're limiting belief systems. They could come from trauma. They can come from how we see ourselves. Are you worthy of success? Imposter syndrome, which is huge in every healthcare provider, but practically anyone right. When you put yourself out there, it's scary. Yeah, very scary.
Speaker 2:So I talk about these things so that we can identify them, because you know, if you can, what do they say? Like when you're exercising demons, you have to know its name first, right? So if we know the problem now, we can pay attention to it. Either we navigate around it or we start dealing with it. If we don't know it's there, well then we're possessed.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah so that's the book in a nutshell, and I did hit bestseller in small business. So, as my marketing team said, update the link in for best-selling author but you know, oh my gosh. Yeah, in reality it was fun, though I was like, oh my god, people bought my book yeah, of course that feels good.
Speaker 1:I again, like you're saying, it's a very vulnerable thing to be ourselves and you can say that, as you know, a social media presence, to show up authentically on social media, to show up authentically in your business, to show up authentically in a relationship, on whatever level, it's a very vulnerable thing to show up as 100% ourselves and there's so many layers to that. Probably at some point when we were younger, right, like somebody told us we were too loud, and now we're like, oh my gosh, I'm too loud all the time. That was me. I have a very loud laugh, so now I'm very self-conscious of my laugh. But there's these pieces, right, that we get.
Speaker 1:It's very vulnerable to show up as ourselves and when we don't, there's that disconnect. That's what leads to burnout, because we're showing up as someone else or the version of ourselves that we think other people want from us and there's that lack of fulfillment and connection and presence. And so it is. It is scary to be yourself and to write a book and and show up, you know, as 100% like I'm not going to give you the answers which is very different because actually, where we live in a world where everyone is like let me tell you this is the right answer and let me tell you why. And I'm going to fix you. And let me tell you why I right answer. And let me tell you why. And I'm going to fix you. And let me tell you why.
Speaker 2:I don't know what's right for anyone.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:You know I can tell you what has worked for me and people I've consulted for. And good luck, that's it, right, yeah, but you know I believe in it. I know it works, Right, I've seen it, But's not, you know. But it was also very scary to write because I put things in there where I'm like, should I say this, Like, is that okay? You know, because I'm like I have to say certain things because I need people to understand it. I place no value judgment on anything, but I say some things in there that I'm like oh, I'm going to get canceled, Right, and they're not from a left or right position or from anything, but people get upset when you push buttons. And you know, like I.
Speaker 2:You know I talk about people's Instagrams, right, you know. Let's say, you have a thousand people on your Instagram and now you decide to be a healthcare practitioner. That's a really great base of people. But you also have photos of when you were 20 and you know, and it might not be the most appropriate photos, let's say, and you know, now you're a massage therapist and you want to know why you're getting touchy, feely guys, you know, or girls, because you've a guy advertising yourself with no shirt on. Yeah, and.
Speaker 2:I talked about like how I had selective Instagram feeds for my practice management class and I didn't screen them that well and like the whole class being like, oh my God, and I'm like, yeah, okay, well, here's what you don't do, you know, and I was surprised and astonished and I'm like you know, people sometimes just don't think that people are going to scroll back, or people scroll back and they see who your cousins are and they get a crush on you and they stalk your entire family. What do you want to put out there? And that's up to you. But I want to at least go and say think about these things.
Speaker 2:And it's very granular and it's very small, but I've seen this destroy people's practices or have people shut down their entire social presence because of very negative experiences that had nothing to do with them other than they just didn't think of. You know, I wouldn't even see censoring, just just, you know, deciphering what they want public versus not, because you become more public, you know, and and if you're like I don't care, then cool, now you know, and you'll get to go and have a great time. It's not a value judgment by any means yeah, yeah, that's all in the book yeah love that and it's available anywhere.
Speaker 2:Books are sold, including ebooks, so ebooks audible no, because I didn't want to record, I didn't want to read it.
Speaker 1:I you know you have a very soothing voice. Actually, I feel like you would do a great job.
Speaker 2:Um, maybe I just didn't want to read my book, you know. And now I realize I can get ai to read it for me and I'm like, oh, maybe I should do the audible book, but I'm, that chapter is done, you know maybe do the Audible book, but that chapter is done. Maybe on the next book. There's another book's 80% done. It's a clinical book on fascia and the treatment of it. So with a co-author it's going to be I'm very excited Hyper niche. So three people will buy that book.
Speaker 2:It will not be a bestseller.
Speaker 1:It will still be great. It will still be great Well, Jordan, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. Thank you for all of your wisdom and connection for people that want to follow up with you. Speaking of social media, for those of us not in New York or Manhattan, Long Island, Brooklyn, how can we follow up?
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, if you're in any of the regions, reach out. You know we love meeting people. We're talking, but J Barbara LAC, licensed acupuncturist, basically anywhere. Any social platform. I'm more active on some than others, but you could find me or find my marketers and they'll find me. My main website is drjordanbarbercom, so you can always get my email, send me a contact form on there, and my clinic is Dr Barber Clinic, which is now on the Upper West Side. It's relocated from Brooklyn and I'm very excited to be serving that community. It's a very exciting area.
Speaker 1:Love that. I love that I have some connections there, because I'm going to try to get them to come see you, and I'm going to try to come see you for sure.
Speaker 2:I would love to at least give you a clinical impression on that back, because I have ideas just based on what you told me. So if you are in the area, please, we'll do a follow-up podcast on that yeah, actually I would love to.
Speaker 1:I, um, yeah, I would love to. Anyway, um, we'll have to talk. Last question you're standing on a stage, you have the microphone for a minute and you have the opportunity to share any one message with the world. What would that message be?
Speaker 2:Demand more, that's it. Demand more for everything, for yourself. Don't settle, right so, whether it's healthcare from your doctor, from your loved ones, stop settling. Every time we settle, we make a concession, and that doesn't mean to be, like you know, a mean person, right, like we're talking about being reasonable. But if we're all honest with ourselves, we we we often avoid conflict or we just accept that, especially with healthcare, you know it's like oh well, you know, that's what I'm going to get. I have crappy insurance. No, just because you have crappy insurance, you can still demand more, right? So be your own advocate and demand more.
Speaker 1:Love that. Thank you so much, Jordan. This was such a fun conversation it's been awesome.
Speaker 2:I hope to talk to you soon.