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The Working Womens Podcast
Teaching working women mind & emotional management tools so they enjoy their family, their job & themselves again without all the shitty overwhelm, obligation & guilt.
The Working Womens Podcast
Ep #97 - Beyond Bereavement: The Losses We Don’t Name with Bonnie Grotjahn
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Grief isn’t just about death. It’s the identity you lose when your role changes, the body you don’t recognise after illness, the relationship that quietly ends, the career you outgrow. In this honest, human conversation, psychotherapist Bonnie Grotjahn and I unpack the unspoken losses busy women carry while trying to keep everyone else happy.
We cover:
- The many forms of grief we’re not taught to name (health, identity, relationships, work)
- Why “I should be fine by now” keeps you stuck — and what to do instead
- Mixed emotions: feeling relief and sadness, love and anger
- Practical, nervous-system-soothing tools for the days you’re overwhelmed
- How to ask for (and accept) support without feeling guilty
- Ways to show up for a friend in grief without fixing or faffing
This one’s for you if you’re spinning plates at work and at home, and you’re tired of pretending you’re “ok” when you’re anything but. You’re not broken. You’re human. Let’s give your experience a name, some space, and a few grounded steps forward.
Gentle note: We talk candidly about loss and bereavement. Take care of yourself and pause if you need to.
Bonnie's links:
- Free reflective workbook/toolkit, Staying Strong in the Face of Grief: A Resilience-Building Toolkit https://subscribepage.io/griefresiliencetoolkit
- LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/bonnie-grotjahn-1383901b/
- Website is here https://boatherapy.weebly.com/
- The book Bonnie mentioned was by Frances Weller, The Wild Edge of Sorrow, beautifully written including about how grief needs to be done not in isolation but in community.
If this helped, share it with a friend who needs gentleness today.
Want calm, clarity and confidence while you get life done? Get in touch using the links below.
You can also watch this episode on YouTube with Captions - https://www.youtube.com/@TheWorkingWomensLifeCoach
If you'd like to have a chat about how I can help you further, please don't hesitate to click here & book a time with me, I'd love to meet you.
You can also follow me on IG @NickyBevan_LifeCoach
Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Welcome, welcome, welcome, everybody, to this week's podcast. And I've got the beautiful Bonnie. joining me again today.
So, Bonnie and I had a really lovely conversation. It was a couple of months ago, actually. I probably should have looked to see what episode it was on the podcast, but
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Bonnie Grotjahn
I probably…
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
I didn't, so I don't actually know the number. But it… we were talking in that conversation more about the difference between therapy, um… counselling, psychotherapy like you do, and coaching, won't we? But in that conversation, we tapped on death and bereavement, and actually,
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Bonnie Grotjahn
Yeah. On death and bereavement.
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
That's probably what we're going to talk about mostly today. Um, you'll have to excuse me, tech is not on my side, everything seems to have failed me this morning. So, uh, we are going with that today.
It's not going to be perfect, but that is life, and that's what I teach, so this is a beautiful example of that, always.
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Bonnie Grotjahn
So, uh, we are going with that. It's not gonna be perfect.
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
So, Bonnie, do you want to start by… First of all, thank you for joining me again today.
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Bonnie Grotjahn
Yeah, thank you.
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Do you want to start by telling us a little bit about yourself? And in particular, why you're so passionate about the topic that we're going to talk about today?
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Bonnie Grotjahn
You know why you're so passion Yeah, yeah, sure. So, yeah, thanks, thanks, Nikki, for having me again. Yeah, it's great to have a… a second go, and to have come up with, you know, other things that I realized could be really interesting to talk about, so…
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yeah.
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Bonnie Grotjahn
Um, that's a brilliant opportunity, thank you. So, yeah, I'm… so my name is Bonnie Grotjohn, and I'm just saying that because people look at my name and they go, oh, hello Bonnie! And then there's this pause, so they never know how to say it, so…
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yeah.
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Bonnie Grotjahn
Um, just saying that for your listeners. Um, and… as you can hear, I'm originally from the US, but I have lived in the UK for 26 years now, I think? Yes?
And for the last 20-plus years, I have been practicing as a psychotherapist and counsellor in private practice.
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yeah.
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Bonnie Grotjahn
And… so I've… I've… had a lot of experience working with a wide, wide range of issues, But, like, why grief? Um, I think it's because… well, When I first started, before I was actually in private practice, I did a for your placement at a bereavement service in North London. And it was… it was so well run, like, it was very professionally run.
We had great group supervision, and just the vetting was…
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Oh, okay.
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Bonnie Grotjahn
you know, was superb in the training. And… it was such a rich area. Like, the expectation was that we would stay on… For two years as a volunteer,
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Mm-hmm.
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Bonnie Grotjahn
working with clients, and I stayed for 4. Because it was just… it was just such an amazing experience, and… and I know people would say, like,
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yeah.
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Bonnie Grotjahn
Really? Like, isn't it a bit depressing, working with all this death, and… And stuff, but I find… It's just… it's so life-affirming, because… we all, you know, loss comes to us all, there's just no way of… avoiding it, and I think… to be witnessing people working through their grief, you know, moving from feeling… excuse me… stuck or overwhelmed, or… You know, isolated, whatever it might be. to come through that, and to kind of experience that… really the transformation that's possible.
like, when people really engage with their grief. Uh, it's just inspiring, and I find it really life-affirming, and also to be a part of, like, helping people.
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yeah.
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Bonnie Grotjahn
through that, and kind of… out the other side to something else, I think, you know, that's part of it.
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yeah…
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Bonnie Grotjahn
And… And I think as well, the fact that Personally, in my own life, I've had any number of… you know, challenges that I would call bereavement, so not just… People dying, but health challenges… that really rocked my sense of who I was. um, you know, relationships ending, all of these things are…
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yeah.
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Bonnie Grotjahn
are losses. Um… And they're also, you know, they're very difficult, but they're also times of transition where something… knew was possible. You know, we're always…
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yeah, oh, I love that.
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Bonnie Grotjahn
were always growing, you know, there was always possibility.
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yeah… Yeah. Yes.
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Bonnie Grotjahn
If we can embrace it, you know, and that's sometimes the challenge, and… And it's so important, there's a beautiful book by Francis Weller called, um… I think at the wild edge of sorrow, something like that on my mind is slightly going blank at the moment, but…
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yeah.
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Bonnie Grotjahn
And she writes really beautifully about how, you know, grief, we need to do in community.
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yes.
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Bonnie Grotjahn
it's… it's… it's just… it's in… it's in our, you know, it's in our bones, it's in our nervous systems, that's… that's what we really need. It's not something to just… do on your own. Um…
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yeah.
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Bonnie Grotjahn
Yeah, so I think that's… that's… Those are the… those are the ingredients, I think, you know, how have I come back to it? So it feels a little bit like…
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yeah.
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Bonnie Grotjahn
I've come full circle, it's like, oh yeah, from that. voluntary placement, to come back to it, but also to come back to it from…
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yeah.
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Bonnie Grotjahn
a place 20 years later. having only added to my own list of…
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Mmm.
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Bonnie Grotjahn
you know, bereavements and losses, uh…
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yeah.
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Bonnie Grotjahn
and grown through that, I think, is… is… yeah, it's just… something just feels totally right about it, I guess.
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yeah. One of the… parts of bereavement and grief that I think we miss a lot.
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Bonnie Grotjahn
I think we miss a lot.
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
in… when… when we're talking about it as a society, And I do feel that…
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Bonnie Grotjahn
And I do feel that…
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Especially in England, there's a bit of a, oh, must crack on, shoulders back, I'm fine.
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Bonnie Grotjahn
It's a bit of a
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
mentality.
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Bonnie Grotjahn
Yeah.
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Whereas when you look at, sort of, more tribal communities and…
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Bonnie Grotjahn
Rose, when you look at, sort of,
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
The areas of the world that are more connected through whatever… whatever religion or culture, they do… Bellow and cry together. And what I…
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Bonnie Grotjahn
What I
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
I find with grief, grief is such… a pure, appropriate emotion. Fueled by love. It's because you loved someone so deeply.
that when you lose them, You want to feel grief. It's because of love that grief is so appropriate. And I love that element of looking at grief.
Alongside the fact that we grieve,
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Bonnie Grotjahn
Alongside the fact that we…
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
4 unmet expectations. So it doesn't have to be death. It's just the ending of something, isn't it?
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Bonnie Grotjahn
Yes. Yes.
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
It's, like you said, it's the end of a… relationship, or the end of a season, or the end of a job, even if you've chose to leave that job.
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Bonnie Grotjahn
Even if you choose to leave…
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
If it's been significant, there will be grief. associated to that.
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Bonnie Grotjahn
Hmm.
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
And yet, we're all trying to avoid it so desperately.
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Bonnie Grotjahn
Mm, mmm. It does. I mean, it feels… I mean, so sadness is, you know, is a huge emotion that we associate with grief.
There are others as well, but… But that the pain of that loss is very physical. It does feel like, you know, when I've been in the middle of sobbing, it feels like something is kind of wrenching me in two.
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Hmm… Yeah.
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Bonnie Grotjahn
So it's… on some weird level, it does kind of make sense that people would go, actually, I'm not sure I want to feel that, thank you, you know?
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yes, yeah, because it's…
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Bonnie Grotjahn
But…
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
In that moment, it is… It is uncomfortable to go through that Emotion, is it? And we're not taught how to sit with our emotions.
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Bonnie Grotjahn
Mmm.
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
We're not taught that our emotions are harmless, so in that moment, When… when our brain is uneducated towardsions, It feels like that moment is never gonna end.
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Bonnie Grotjahn
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's… that's really interesting, and particularly, I'm just thinking of, you know, a few clients I've worked with where the grief has been very raw. Like, if it's, you know, been quite recent.
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yeah.
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Bonnie Grotjahn
they sometimes, you know, after a few months, they're sort of saying, oh, Bonnie, when is this pain gonna end? You know, and of course, I have no…
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yeah.
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Bonnie Grotjahn
answer for them, right? It's all I can do is just…
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
No.
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Bonnie Grotjahn
be with them in it.
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yeah.
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Bonnie Grotjahn
Um, yeah. Yeah, and it does… You can never know when that… point is going to be, and it's not just one point, is it? But… But it's, um… there's… there's a model, I can't remember who to… credit with this, but there's a model of grief, I don't know if you've seen, where… Um… If you feel like, like, here's, like, here's grief, right?
It's this… this big.
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yep.
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Bonnie Grotjahn
And then at first, when in the early stages, there's the grief, and then life is only just a tiny bit. The whole of your life is just a tiny bit bigger than the grief.
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yeah.
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Bonnie Grotjahn
And it's not that the grief gets smaller,
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yeah.
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Bonnie Grotjahn
Over time, it's that the grief stays the same size, but your life, the sense of your life, just gets bigger.
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yes. Yeah.
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Bonnie Grotjahn
around it. Like, over time, right?
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yeah, yeah, that's it. And I always, with any emotion, actually, love to bring in compassion to that emotion, because if you're… if people are willing to just sit, in the emotion without judgment, without criticizing it, without shoulding it. It does actually ease and pass.
quicker. I think the problem comes in, and the tension comes in when we try not to feel that emotion, and then it holds on, because it's got nowhere to go. It's like water flowing.
We don't let it flow.
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Bonnie Grotjahn
Yeah. Yeah, yes.
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
And so, that, I think, actually…
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Bonnie Grotjahn
That, I think, actually…
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Paradoxically, that's a really big word for me to use, um… It, like, um… It never… it's like… you would think that avoiding it made it go away, but it's actually feeling it that makes us feel better, and I… I don't think people always get that.
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Bonnie Grotjahn
Mmm. I don't think people always get that. No.
I think… I think you're right, yeah.
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yeah. I'd just say…
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Bonnie Grotjahn
Yeah.
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
The more you feel it, like, truly,
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Bonnie Grotjahn
The more you feel it, like,
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Over time, then you start to notice, oh, I didn't well up when I heard their name, I didn't…
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Bonnie Grotjahn
Over time.
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
I didn't feel angry at the situation, I didn't… whatever, you know, whatever the thought process is, it…
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Bonnie Grotjahn
If whatever, you know, whatever the thought process is…
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Once felt fully, actually eases quicker.
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Bonnie Grotjahn
Yeah, definitely. definitely. And one of the… one of the things Nikki, that I wanted to talk a little bit about today, and specifically, and I'm happy to, you know, we can talk about different kinds of grief, but I was…
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yeah.
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Bonnie Grotjahn
thinking to talk a little bit about something I like to call gritty grief.
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yes, tell me.
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Bonnie Grotjahn
Which is… sometimes it's known as complicated or complex grief, right? Um, and sometimes in the kind of counselling field,
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Okay.
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Bonnie Grotjahn
it will mean specifically, like, when the death… I mean, there's certain types of it, but… It could be when the death has been particularly traumatic, or violent, or shopping in some way, you know. murders, homicides, um… suicide, you know, that kind of…
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yep.
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Bonnie Grotjahn
tough end of it. It can be, for example, if somebody's had caring responsibilities,
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yep.
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Bonnie Grotjahn
for the person who's died, because then there are all these feelings they've had to put to one side in order to do the caring, and they may feel like they've… may feel guilty because they've not done enough. You know, for example, things like that.
Um, and another kind, which I'm finding… I'm encountering more in my practice, in kind of different guises and around… in different ways, but… is where… people are getting stuck in a process well, whether they're in the process yet or not, I mean, I think that's what they've come to me for, for help with, but… is where the relationship with the person who's died, or the relationship with the with someone involved in the loss of a… dream or a particular situation. That relationship has been a tricky one.
you know, usually… In my experience so far, that's been a parental relationship, but it can be, say, an ex-partner, or… Something like that, and…
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yeah.
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Bonnie Grotjahn
the mix of emotions that somebody can feel… when they go, because it's not just, like, sadness… it's… They may feel relief, they may feel guilt, you know, there's guilt because they don't feel sad, necessarily, or it's just confusing. It's conf… they're confused, and they're just like,
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yes. Yeah.
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Bonnie Grotjahn
I'm not feeling how I think I should feel.
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yeah. Yeah.
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Bonnie Grotjahn
And particularly, interestingly, what I'm finding is… in particular, I think, like, women, professional women who have been really used to coping and being very competent and sorting things out for other people, and I'm sure this might include people, you know, women that you work with as well. where they're so used to keeping going. And so they're kind of trying to keep going, but actually they're realizing, oh god, I can't… this isn't working.
I don't have the answers.
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yeah, yeah. Yeah…
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Bonnie Grotjahn
I'm a bit stuck, I'm a bit overwhelmed. uh… help.
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yeah.
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Bonnie Grotjahn
But they're just not used to reaching out and needing help themselves, and so there's that struggle and that kind of legacy.
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yeah… Yeah.
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Bonnie Grotjahn
It's… it's… it's just… it's become really fascinating to me to kind of start to unpick these layers. Yeah. I don't know if you can resonate with that.
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yes. Yeah. And I do want to unpick it a little bit further, if we may, because I've noticed this, and this isn't necessarily just when grief is attached, but
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Bonnie Grotjahn
Yeah.
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Those women that are used to going and going and going and doing everything for everybody and always on the go, They fear stopping, because when they stop, They're then only with themselves. And if they've never worked on their relationship with them, they've only ever been focused on the external relationships, well, what the fuck no?
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Bonnie Grotjahn
Yeah. Yes.
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Especially if that identity is a… if that identity is attached to a job, and you've lost a job, or carer, and you've lost the person you're caring for, or…
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Bonnie Grotjahn
Hmm…
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
you know, you're a mother, and you've… you've lost a child, then when the identity is attached, and I'd be interested to hear more on this from you, it's that… Yeah, it's, like you say, gritty, that complex…
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Bonnie Grotjahn
Yeah, it's, like you say, quick…
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
part of… Oh, thank God I don't have to do that again anymore. Along with… Oh my god, that person's gone, or that situation has gone…
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Bonnie Grotjahn
Along with… Oh my god, that person!
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
And yeah, so how do you… when you get those people with you,
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Bonnie Grotjahn
So how do you…
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Where do you start? Huh. I'm like, whoa!
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Bonnie Grotjahn
Well, I laughed because… Because it's… it's so different with… with every individual?
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yes, of course.
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Bonnie Grotjahn
It's so different, but I think… For me, I don't know, for me, there are a couple of things that I find helpful. And they're slightly… they're using metaphors that are slightly similar, but I'll mention them both just in case they're helpful.
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yep.
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Bonnie Grotjahn
Um, so… so one is what I call Confusions 2.
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yes.
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Bonnie Grotjahn
Because I think, when I hear the word confusion, I go, oh! Okay, right, it's just a stew. It's usually… it's a stew of different emotions or thoughts that… the person is saying they're confused by because they don't… they're contradictory.
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yeah.
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Bonnie Grotjahn
It's like, somewhere there's a belief that, oh, my feelings have to all kind of make sense and be rational in some way, and… And so to say, well, actually, here's Confusions to what are the different ingredients in this stew? that can bring a kind of sense of clarity, like, oh, there's this, there's… there's this guilt. There's this anger, there's… you know, there's this sadness because of, you know, the mother, I didn't… ever have, and I'm never going to have now, um, for example.
you know, these different, you know, maybe feeling abandoned, um, maybe feeling stressed. Because of a certain practical issue, you know, aspect of the situation. So that can be one way to just kind of unpack, like, what's in here.
Um, and similarly, there's something called a grief pot, where you can kind of… make a… if you think of a pot, and then you think, kind of like we were… you were talking about earlier, like… What are the different losses that are connected with the loss of this particular person?
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yep.
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Bonnie Grotjahn
There's the loss of… I don't know, we'd say meeting up for them every week for a coffee, And then there's the… loss of a home to go to, or… there are all these different… or the loss of the dream of… a trip that maybe you'd always planned to take together, or whatever. You can… you can put all of those into this… grief part, and then each one of those aspects, you know, anger, so each of those aspects you can take separately and kind of work with and work on.
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yeah. Yeah.
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Bonnie Grotjahn
Um, but as for where… where to start… It's something you kind of co-create with the client. I mean, I don't know if you find that in your work as well, but…
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yes. Yeah. Well, yeah, because you're… what's…
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Bonnie Grotjahn
You know, it's like… Every person is so different in how they come forward.
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Every person's… and what my… what I might think, oh, that they need to work on.
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Bonnie Grotjahn
Ooh, that's what they need to work on. They might be low, no, that really actually…
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
They might be like, no, that really actually doesn't bother me, it's this. And you're like, okay.
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Bonnie Grotjahn
You're like, okay.
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
And so, it is, especially when, you know, you're in your… the clients,
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Bonnie Grotjahn
It is, I…
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Um, session. It… we're trained, aren't we, to kind of take our…
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Bonnie Grotjahn
It's trained, daunting to kind of take our…
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
like, our… judgment or our opinion out of it, and just get really curious about what the person in front of us needs, and that is different for everybody, isn't it?
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Bonnie Grotjahn
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I have to say, like, I mean, I find… These days, it's… I wouldn't say I'm necessarily directive as a therapist, but if I do have an opinion… that I think would be valuable.
I do share it, but then it's ultimately up to the person what they do with it.
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yeah. Yes, yes.
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Bonnie Grotjahn
So, you know, there might be times when I think, oh, actually, I think, I suspect this is kind of key here, or something.
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yes. Yeah.
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Bonnie Grotjahn
You know, there's… it's a bit of a dance in terms of… At least in the way I work as a therapist, so…
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yeah. Yeah, no, it is the same with me, because I'll sort of say to people, I'm getting a sense that… Even though you're saying this, I wonder if this is happening.
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Bonnie Grotjahn
I wonder if this is happening.
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
And then they're like, oh, I hadn't even considered
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Bonnie Grotjahn
Yeah. And then they're like, oh, I have to… Yeah.
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
And then, yes, that's exactly what's happening. So I think… With, uh, this comes up a lot with anger and frustration.
---
Bonnie Grotjahn
So I think with, uh…
---
Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
When someone is really angry about… especially, I think, if a lot has happened Suddenly, um, if, you know, maybe I would imagine… fortunately, I've never had to deal with this, but I would imagine when it's death by suicide, there'd be a lot of anger attached to that. Anger and frustration is generally a protective mechanism.
---
Bonnie Grotjahn
can be.
---
Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
And so, we look at, okay, well, what is that anchor protecting you from? Actually, it is the pain.
---
Bonnie Grotjahn
So, we look at, okay, well, what is that?
---
Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
And the vulnerability. Okay, so let's talk about that. And I… it's… When we're in our own heads, we don't have that helicopter view of all the different things happening, isn't it?
Which is why it's so powerful.
---
Bonnie Grotjahn
When we're in our own heads, we don't have… Hmm…
---
Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
to go and talk to someone, regardless of their label, It's… it's having that conversation with someone that is very lovingly going to be able to show you all the different bits that you can't see at your angle.
---
Bonnie Grotjahn
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
---
Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
And I think that's such a powerful gift to give ourselves, especially in a transition, whether it be grief or, you know, end of life, or end of job, or end of relationship, or end of season.
---
Bonnie Grotjahn
Yeah. Yeah. It's a little bit like, you know, I just thought of another metaphor I seem to be in metaphors today, but I was just thinking of, like,
---
Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yeah.
---
Bonnie Grotjahn
you know, when you transplant a plant,
---
Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yes.
---
Bonnie Grotjahn
from, like, a pot to a… you know, in the ground, say, or to a bigger pot, or something.
---
Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yeah.
---
Bonnie Grotjahn
Like, you have to take a lot of care with the root ball, and, you know, it's tender when it's lost that…
---
Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yeah.
---
Bonnie Grotjahn
The pot that it's gotten used to, and maybe it's gotten root-bound or something, it's gotten comfortable.
---
Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yeah. Yeah. Yes.
---
Bonnie Grotjahn
There, and so when something is kind of in transition, like that, we need to take more care. And be a bit more tender towards it. And, you know, give it more of the water, and we do all of those things, like, with plants.
---
Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yeah.
---
Bonnie Grotjahn
Because we recognize are actually those… that's what they need. And we are like plants!
---
Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Well, I love that tender! I… because I always say compassion or kindness, but actually tender, you think,
---
Bonnie Grotjahn
You know.
---
Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
We could be tender to that part of us that's going through that motion at that point, regardless of whether it's anger, frustration, sadness, relief. It doesn't matter. We can be tender towards it, and I just think that's a really actually beautiful way of
---
Bonnie Grotjahn
Yeah.
---
Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
describing what people can do.
---
Bonnie Grotjahn
Mm, mm-hmm. And… But it's, you know, and it's interesting, I mean, when I think about… again, you know, the kind of clients that fit in this kind of category, particularly around the gritty grief at the moment. That I'm finding is… often they may not have necessarily learned how to be tender.
you know, in a particular way. I mean, maybe the, you know, they've been…
---
Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Mmm.
---
Bonnie Grotjahn
Tender towards their children, or…
---
Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yeah.
---
Bonnie Grotjahn
whatever, but something about with themselves, like you were saying, about the relationship with themselves. If that's really foreign,
---
Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yeah. Yeah.
---
Bonnie Grotjahn
It's… it's… that's a whole skill that needs to be, kind of, modeled and taught in the… in the process.
---
Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Absolutely. Yeah. And I actually think that's probably one of the biggest things I teach, regardless of the circumstance.
---
Bonnie Grotjahn
And I actually think that's probably what it is.
---
Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
And what fascinates me
---
Bonnie Grotjahn
Mmm. Yeah.
---
Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
is that… People can do it with… Babies, or children, or if they're not into people, they can do it with animals. Like,
---
Bonnie Grotjahn
or if they're not into people…
---
Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
If they… if they're… if someone's not really a people person,
---
Bonnie Grotjahn
Yeah.
---
Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
They would be so tender with a puppy, or they would be so kind to a cat that was freaking out, you know? So, Ev… I do believe that most people… I mean, they're obviously always exceptions, aren't there? But I believe that most people
---
Bonnie Grotjahn
So, Ev, I do believe that most… Hmm.
---
Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Do you have the ability to be tender and kind and compassionate? They've just never actually considered practicing that with themselves and with that internal dialogue.
---
Bonnie Grotjahn
Practicing them. Yeah. Yeah.
And sometimes… again, you know, for me, then, almost regardless of what maybe has brought some… what issue has brought somebody into my practice. If that's the case, then that's another layer that we might look at.
---
Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yes.
---
Bonnie Grotjahn
Like, so where did… where did you learn to be this hard on yourself?
---
Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yeah.
---
Bonnie Grotjahn
you know, were there any models of, kind of, you know, care, self-care, whatever, you know? And, you know, It's quite common that those weren't there.
---
Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yeah. Yeah. Or… That enabled them to survive that part of that life.
---
Bonnie Grotjahn
to survive that part of that life. Yeah. Yeah.
---
Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
So it got them here, it enabled them to survive, but it's not necessarily going to be able
---
Bonnie Grotjahn
But it's not necessarily gonna…
---
Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
to let them thrive moving forward. So then it's about, okay, that helped you then, that was great. Is it helping you now?
And if it isn't, let's change it to move you forward.
---
Bonnie Grotjahn
Yeah. So then it's about, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah, lovely, yeah.
Totally, I'm with you on that one, yeah, yeah.
---
Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yeah, I love that. So, Bonnie, are you willing to share…
---
Bonnie Grotjahn
Are you willing to share?
---
Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
any of your, sort of, specific… scenarios that you've been through, just in case that helps anybody that's listening.
---
Bonnie Grotjahn
Okay, wow, yeah. Um… I'm kind of going, which one shall I pick?
---
Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Which one… yeah, which one should I go for today?
---
Bonnie Grotjahn
Oh, God! Oh, man. Um… It's really interesting.
If we were to pick one…
---
Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
I mean, you could just some… you could just relap all of them, and then… And then I'll pick one.
---
Bonnie Grotjahn
We laugh, God! Well, no, I mean, I think… Ooh, excuse me. good old dry tickle.
---
Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yeah.
---
Bonnie Grotjahn
Okay, well, no, I'll give you a short list, and I'll give you an idea of
---
Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Okay.
---
Bonnie Grotjahn
the one that I might like to talk about, but, you know, I'm happy to hear what you're interested in as well, so…
---
Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Okay. Yeah.
---
Bonnie Grotjahn
I'm thinking… Oh, cranky. Yeah, if I were to actually start, I might come up with a very long list, but I'm thinking…
---
Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Go for it.
---
Bonnie Grotjahn
when I was at… I went to… you went to university? And, uh, and then I struggled academically, and I flunked out, I had to come back and reapply, and… So there was that loss of, kind of, identity, like, oh, I thought I was a really smart person. I was at an Ivy League university, so it was, you know, So, that has just occurred to me now, actually.
It's really interesting, as a loss.
---
Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
That is interesting. Okay.
---
Bonnie Grotjahn
So that's kind of, you know, when I was in my early 20s.
---
Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yeah.
---
Bonnie Grotjahn
And that's what brought me into counselling for myself in the first place, so that's kind of the beginning of a…
---
Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Okay.
---
Bonnie Grotjahn
kind of lifetime of being interested in that kind of thing.
---
Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yeah.
---
Bonnie Grotjahn
Um, you know, and I would say also, you know, in effect, like, losing country, you know, I chose to move to Russia first, I lived there for 6 years, and then I chose to come here and move, and so there are… there are aspects of loss connected with that.
---
Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yeah.
---
Bonnie Grotjahn
Um… And then other, you know, people… my parents were both When I was born, they were in their mid-40s, so they have both passed away now. They're both elderly, but… when they did die, but, you know, and each of those losses was… totally different from the other.
---
Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Really, yeah.
---
Bonnie Grotjahn
because of the difference in relationship, and timing, and, you know, and circumstance, and… so many things. My dad had Alzheimer's, so that's a… that's a different kind of loss. Because you're kind of losing the person gradually, and that kind of is… you know, a different scenario.
---
Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yeah. Yeah.
---
Bonnie Grotjahn
Um, I've had… I've… I've had a few different relationships, including two marriages, so I've had, you know, a few relationship endings, for sure, including one, you know, more recently. Um, and then… and then my brother passed away just over 2 years ago. And he was only 65.
Um, and oh, and then the one I was thinking that maybe to talk about is So in 2018, I got very ill with what turned out to be chronic Lyme disease. From a tick bite… from a tick bite 18 years previously.
---
Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Oh, okay. Yep. Wow.
---
Bonnie Grotjahn
And I was so unwell, I wasn't working for 7 months. I had to come and live with friends, it… it… it absolutely… I was very ill, and it just turned my life upside down.
---
Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yeah.
---
Bonnie Grotjahn
But again, even that was… you know, there was a huge opportunity in that. So, those are the… those are the things that are occurring to me.
---
Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yeah. And is it… and we could dive into each one of those. Couldn't we?
But I think the…
---
Bonnie Grotjahn
And we could dive into each…
---
Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
I think the two that I think are the most fascinating, which I don't think people talk about,
---
Bonnie Grotjahn
Mmm.
---
Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Um, because I think, you know, when we talk about grief, we think about parents, don't we?
---
Bonnie Grotjahn
Um, because I think, you know, when we… Mmm.
---
Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
illnesses, perhaps. And seeing them losing them, spiritually and personality,
---
Bonnie Grotjahn
spiritually, um, personality.
---
Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
But their body is still there, and, like, that… that…
---
Bonnie Grotjahn
Mmm, stop, stop.
---
Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
I… I… I think that's, you know, maybe not spoken about very often, but definitely when you lose people. But what I'm really fascinated by is two particular ones.
---
Bonnie Grotjahn
But what I'm really fascinated by…
---
Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
When you went from… into university, I think that's really interesting, because people who… I'm personally not academic, so I never went to university,
---
Bonnie Grotjahn
Mmm.
---
Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
But, um, I… that…
---
Bonnie Grotjahn
But, um, I…
---
Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
If you found school really easy, because you are clever, and then you go into somewhere… some… like, you went into an Ivy League university where everybody's clever, and you're actually
---
Bonnie Grotjahn
You go into you somewhat.
---
Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
The… not the cleverest, That's an identity shift!
---
Bonnie Grotjahn
Yeah.
---
Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Being with the illness, being someone who… and knowing you now, I obviously didn't know you then, but knowing you now, and knowing how active you are, And how capable you are,
---
Bonnie Grotjahn
Hmm.
---
Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
to have to… be cared for, That's an identity shift. And I don't think we talk about that very often. When we… when we have to shift an identity, for whatever reason,
---
Bonnie Grotjahn
Yeah. I don't think we talk about that very often.
---
Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
There is a grief attached to that.
---
Bonnie Grotjahn
Hmm. Mmm. And it pushes us to our limits.
I mean, particularly when I was unwell.
---
Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yes.
---
Bonnie Grotjahn
It's the type of unwell I was, was not, you know, like some people with Lyme disease get. lots of fatigue and joint pain. My version was more like burning nerve pains.
---
Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yeah.
---
Bonnie Grotjahn
Like, all over my body, it was horrendous, but also… really high anxiety and agitation. It was like my… it was affecting my nervous system.
---
Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yeah.
---
Bonnie Grotjahn
And so, literally, it was like… it felt like it had a nervous system transplant. I struggled to sleep, I was so agitated. I couldn't actually be on my own, like, I physically just… I had to have, like, other bodies around me.
It was just… it was so scary.
---
Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yeah.
---
Bonnie Grotjahn
And so I had to… and I was single, So there was no single, you know, the family I did have at that point, again, was in the US. There was no obvious…
---
Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yeah.
---
Bonnie Grotjahn
place for me to land, and I had to go out and constantly, like, ask people, can I stay at your place for a few days? You know, I'm looking for a place to live.
---
Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yeah.
---
Bonnie Grotjahn
you know, can I come spend the day with you? You know, I had to constantly, like, be vulnerable, and just be in need.
---
Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yeah.
---
Bonnie Grotjahn
I'm… but what that taught me was… Because I'd, you know, I'd built up a good network of friendships. What I really learned to know, like, in my bones, was, like, oh, I am loved because who I… I'm… because of who I am, not because of what I do.
---
Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yes. Yep.
---
Bonnie Grotjahn
And that hadn't, you know, that hadn't really… with all my bloody therapy years of therapy, you know, on some level, like, that hadn't really, like, sunk in? Yeah.
---
Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yeah. Yeah.
---
Bonnie Grotjahn
You know, so… so we… like you say, identity shift, but then also… that need to develop new skills. I mean, I had been getting better at asking for help anyway, but still, it just pushed me to, like, go, oh my god, I am so vulnerable, and I have to kind of be seen to be this vulnerable. I have no choice, I can just count…
---
Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yeah. Yeah.
---
Bonnie Grotjahn
There's nothing else I can do.
---
Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yeah. And isn't it incredible, when we're vulnerable with people, that creates such a connection.
---
Bonnie Grotjahn
Yeah.
---
Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
such a connection. Now, I'm not saying, then, that we should be open and vulnerable with someone sat in a supermarket queue, that may not be appropriate, but… With significant friendships and partnerships and significant people
---
Bonnie Grotjahn
Yeah.
---
Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
being willing to show your vulnerability is what creates a deeper connection.
---
Bonnie Grotjahn
Yeah.
---
Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
But people tend to avoid that, so then you don't get really deep connections with people, I don't think.
---
Bonnie Grotjahn
Mmm, mmm. Because there's all that fear, and again, that's a legacy of… you know, conditioning and things, isn't it? Like, oh, I can't, you know, I can't need other people, when actually, you know, actually we do, we all really need each other, but…
---
Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
---
Bonnie Grotjahn
But feeling that.
---
Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yeah. That's really interesting. So, how did you…
---
Bonnie Grotjahn
letting ourselves feel that, yeah.
---
Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
kind of move through that, and then out the other side.
---
Bonnie Grotjahn
Wow, um… I mean, cranky. I remember, funnily enough, my therapist at the time reminded me… that just before all that had happened. we'd been planning to stop… I'd been planning to stop seeing her as a therapist, like, we were kind of coming to the end of our work, and then this happened, and it was like…
---
Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yeah.
---
Bonnie Grotjahn
It was mad. So, um… Yeah, so I… I definitely had lots more therapy with her, and it's not… it's… so in that case, I think… I find sometimes people don't necessarily understand, like, therapy isn't always about, like, delving into your deepest, darkest.
---
Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yeah.
---
Bonnie Grotjahn
past or, you know, patterns or whatever. It's just sometimes huge support for, like, current living.
---
Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yes.
---
Bonnie Grotjahn
And I definitely found that, you know, as well as… I think we did do some deep work together. Actually. Um…
---
Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yeah.
---
Bonnie Grotjahn
So that was definitely part of it. I mean, I got great, you know, I got great medical support. I had to go privately, which was a whole, you know, that was a whole thing.
But… and I just put things in my life. I really paced myself. I think, you know, I really kind of learned… I learned to say no to things that weren't… just weren't gonna serve me.
---
Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yes.
---
Bonnie Grotjahn
it just… God, it gave me so much opportunity to practice that muscle.
---
Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yeah. And I… I…
---
Bonnie Grotjahn
I mean… I… I…
---
Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
I love that you say learned. Like, it really is a skill.
---
Bonnie Grotjahn
Oh.
---
Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
To learn to say no with so much love.
---
Bonnie Grotjahn
Yeah.
---
Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
And set boundaries with love. It is a skill that no one teaches us.
---
Bonnie Grotjahn
Yeah. Exactly, and it was like my nervous system… like, my nervous system wouldn't let me not do it. Do you know what I mean?
It was… I… because if I'd… if I'd gone along with stuff, I… you know, it just would have…
---
Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yeah.
---
Bonnie Grotjahn
I would have just been on the floor. So I literally, like… I was very sensitive to stimulation. like, the worst part of when I was most ill.
And so sometimes I literally had to say to people, I'm really sorry, I… I just need you to stop talking for a bit.
---
Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yeah.
---
Bonnie Grotjahn
Because I just need some quiet, or I just need some digesting time. And I had to say to people,
---
Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yeah.
---
Bonnie Grotjahn
you know, I'm living with a different nervous system.
---
Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yeah.
---
Bonnie Grotjahn
you know, because no one would be able to tell on the outside, necessarily. Or…
---
Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yeah, yeah.
---
Bonnie Grotjahn
you know, no, I can't watch anything even remotely scary. any TV needs… needed to be absolutely… you know, soothing. That was the only thing I could really tolerate.
---
Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It makes me chuckle, because I quite often have to say to… not quite often, but I have to say to Johnny, because my husband is very high energy,
---
Bonnie Grotjahn
Um, yeah.
---
Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
And, uh, sometimes I have to say to him, I just need you to be quiet now, because I can't… I… right now, I just… I don't need this. I'm like, I love you, but Shush.
---
Bonnie Grotjahn
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly, I know, I know.
---
Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Please, please stop talking, or please stop dancing in front of me, because this energy, I'm, like, not… not at this particular moment. Um, yeah, it is… it is funny.
---
Bonnie Grotjahn
Yeah, yeah. somebody… I remember one friend who I'd asked, oh, can I, you know, can I come just hang out with you for the day? You know, doing separate things, but just, again, that was in that phase where I just needed to be in a room with other people.
---
Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yeah.
---
Bonnie Grotjahn
And, um, he said, okay, well, I could come down on my motorbike for you. And I said, I don't think so. I think I'll pass on that one.
---
Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, a bit loud. Yeah, it's funny.
---
Bonnie Grotjahn
Yeah, yeah. Uh, so I think, yeah, and…
---
Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
So, is there any, um,
---
Bonnie Grotjahn
And again, relying… I'm just thinking, you know, relying on people, you know, to just a much larger extent, and being open, like, when I literally… I post it out onto my choir Facebook group saying, here, I'm looking for… other places I can live. you know, or stay for… a few weeks at a time, and somebody came forward and said, oh, actually, we love having people share our house, and…
---
Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yeah.
---
Bonnie Grotjahn
you'd be welcome to stay for a number of months, and it was just… you know, I didn't even know them!
---
Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Brilliant. Yeah. Yeah, that's so lovely, isn't it?
---
Bonnie Grotjahn
Hugely well. just… amazing.
---
Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
And I think what's so beautiful about that particular scenario is we can get so caught up in the negativity of life, can't we? And how… people are bad, and all the, like, evil things that are happening in the world. And yet, there is also so many beautiful people that are helping that we don't really notice, because we're all so focused on the…
---
Bonnie Grotjahn
So many beautiful people Mmm.
---
Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
negative, and that's a really beautiful example, isn't it, of someone who's willing to invite So what they don't really know into their house, And share space. And I just think there are some really amazing humans in this world, aren't there?
---
Bonnie Grotjahn
Mmm. Yeah. Yeah.
But at a very, you know, scary… time. You know?
---
Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
---
Bonnie Grotjahn
Um, and I think… for me as well, I'm just thinking, you know, having mentioned about transformation, the possible transformation of lost… times of loss,
---
Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yeah.
---
Bonnie Grotjahn
was… you know, I'm just remembering again that I think that whole experience just gave me a totally new appreciation for my life.
---
Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yeah.
---
Bonnie Grotjahn
like, I don't want… I can't take it for granted anymore, because I literally… I did think I was gonna die.
---
Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yeah.
---
Bonnie Grotjahn
The sensations that I was having were just so bizarre and scary that… I was certain that it was, you know… there was something really terrible going on.
---
Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yeah.
---
Bonnie Grotjahn
So it just… it just… yeah, it somehow just increased my kind of sense of, right, life is, you know, life is for a living. We've got to grab it with both hands.
---
Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yeah… yeah, we do. I know, I know we hear it quite a lot, and it's a bit of a cringey one, but…
---
Bonnie Grotjahn
And appreciate it. I know, I think we hear it quite a lot.
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
We… we do only get to live this… life wants, that we remember, whether you're into past lives or not, but
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Bonnie Grotjahn
Yeah, yeah.
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
But that we remember at this point, we literally do only have it once, and…
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Bonnie Grotjahn
Yeah.
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Uh, my husband will quite often say, and I can't remember where he got it from to credit the person.
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Bonnie Grotjahn
Uh, my husband will quite often say,
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
But, um, life is like a ride. It is like a roller coaster, but none of us get out alive.
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Bonnie Grotjahn
But, uh, life is like a right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Great.
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
None of us get off alive. And so, you just think, it is so true, isn't it? And I think if we can…
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Bonnie Grotjahn
So, you just think…
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
If we can… learn how to be okay through the grief, regardless of Whether it's an end of life, end of… relationship, end of job, end of identity. If we can… and especially get support through that, we are stronger on the other side. We are.
You can't not be.
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Bonnie Grotjahn
Yeah. Yeah.
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
And… and it's having that awareness that nothing is temporary. Sorry, nothing is permanent. This is only temporary, and then with that tenderness, with that kindness,
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Bonnie Grotjahn
Sorry, nothing is permanent.
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
supporting yourself through that, I think, is… is key, isn't it?
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Bonnie Grotjahn
Yeah, yeah, definitely. Definitely. And one thing I… some of, again, some of your listeners might find helpful that I've created recently.
I have to admit, it's not…
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yes.
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Bonnie Grotjahn
It's… it's a… it's a free download, and it's called Staying Strong in the Face of Grief.
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Amazing. Nice.
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Bonnie Grotjahn
It's like a resilience-building toolkit, so it's a reflective workbook.
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yep.
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Bonnie Grotjahn
stroke toolkit, because there are some ideas in there as well about how, you know, things that you can do to support yourself, you know, when there's… grief, or when there's… you're facing into grief at some point. It's… graphically, it's…
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yeah.
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Bonnie Grotjahn
I would like to improve the look of it, but I'm happy with… I mean, it's good enough. Do you know what I mean? It's like, I just… I'd rather have this thing get out there and for people to be using it, and benefiting from it than trying to…
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yes. Yes. Yeah, I've been trying to… yes.
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Bonnie Grotjahn
make it look flashy and whatever, so that's something I can… yeah, I can give you a, you know, I can provide a link to that when we finish.
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
And no one has it, yes. Absolutely. That would be brilliant, thank you.
Yeah, we'll put it in the show notes below, along with… any other links that you want us to… for people to find you?
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Bonnie Grotjahn
Mm-hmm.
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
We can post all of that in the notes below, so people can come and find you and download that. That's an amazing tool. Thank you for that.
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Bonnie Grotjahn
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, great.
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Was there anything else that you wanted to cover that we haven't yet spoke about.
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Bonnie Grotjahn
Um… Let me have a look. I'm just gonna have a look at my… look, I did…
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yes, because you… you came more prepared than I did.
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Bonnie Grotjahn
Unusually, yes, I did kind of think… Because I did a… I did a webinar last year about… complicated grief. And it's something I will run again. But I did it… when was that?
That was early October, and I've kind of… my life has had a few transformations since then, so I really wanted to go back and go, oh yes, what did I talk about, and what was…
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yeah.
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Bonnie Grotjahn
You know, so I'm just having a quick look, and then I scribbled down a few notes just before today, because I just knew, just knew. I have menopausal brain, so… Um, I think actually we've covered…
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yes. Me too.
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Bonnie Grotjahn
Well, there were 3 things I was thinking of. of actually making sure to kind of you know, key takeaways that I thought would be useful. And I think two of them, actually, we've re… we've…
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yes.
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Bonnie Grotjahn
mentioned already, like, about… the possibility that grief can be transformational, you know, if we let it, and…
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yes.
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Bonnie Grotjahn
And actually, that's one thing Um, I remember coming across and thinking it's really powerful that actually our own attitude to our own grief. is so key. Like…
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yes.
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Bonnie Grotjahn
If we try to kind of put it into a box and put it on a shelf, it's going to bite us on the bum at some point if we don't actually address it.
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
at some point, absolutely. Yeah.
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Bonnie Grotjahn
So that's so important. Um… you know, the other one I think we've kind of covered is about, like, reaching out for support. It's not a weakness, it's actually a sign of strength, which I think we would both agree with.
And then just the last thing I just want to say is, I think it's really important to go, you know, whatever anyone's experiencing in grief, you know, whatever emotion or thought or…
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yes.
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Bonnie Grotjahn
combination of those things. It's absolutely, like, normal.
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yeah.
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Bonnie Grotjahn
There's… it's… it's all… it's all okay.
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yes. Yeah, and I…
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Bonnie Grotjahn
You know, and you are not, you know, no one is… no one is alone, ultimately, in what you're going for.
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yes, yeah.
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Bonnie Grotjahn
going through.
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
And I think that is actually a really key message. When someone's sat at home, and they've got the confusion of emotions. I think it can be very easy… to sit and think, oh my god, no one else does this, this must just… there's something wrong with me, because I've got that stew of confusion.
and relief and guilt, and shame, and anger, and sadness, and… fear, and I think… I think when you actually come and speak to someone, and I think that's when group environments can be very powerful, Just to hear someone Saying exactly the same thing. That relief that you're not the only one,
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Bonnie Grotjahn
Saying exactly the same thing.
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
can be… that in itself could be…
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Bonnie Grotjahn
Mm-hmm.
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
just all you needed to hear.
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Bonnie Grotjahn
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
You know? And I… so I think we do, we… we make it mean that we are the only one that… and then… and then we must be bad, If I have a feeling relief, or feeling anger, or feeling… you know, even excitement! I just think, especially if…
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Bonnie Grotjahn
Oh, yeah.
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
And I think about this for people that maybe have lost, you know, partners, they're… what they thought was going to be their life partner.
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Bonnie Grotjahn
Mmm…
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Once they move through that, to then consider the excitement of another possible relationship. That in itself must… must… bring up all the shoulds, you know?
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Bonnie Grotjahn
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
And so, to hear… And to get help, and to… To be courageous enough to go along to…
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Bonnie Grotjahn
courageous enough to go along.
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
someone like you, or someone like me, or a group environment, where you can expose yourself to other people that are going through it. does ease the discomfort, I think. I really believe that.
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Bonnie Grotjahn
Mm, mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, someday, I would love to run a group program of some sort.
It's… who knows? There are a few kind of ideas that are sort of…
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yeah…
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Bonnie Grotjahn
simmering away at the moment. One thing I've been working on is a one-to-one you know, an individual program, kind of a structured program that's about…
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yeah.
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Bonnie Grotjahn
helping people work through the legacy of a relationship, you know, when it's been a tricky one in particular. So I'm kind of working on that, but there's part of me also going, oh, but what about our group thing? Anyway, who knows?
Who knows?
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
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Bonnie Grotjahn
where I'll go with that, but…
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yeah, that's it. But it's… it's incredible. Well, thank you, Bonnie, so much for coming to talk to me.
I… as… as…
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Bonnie Grotjahn
in process, yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah, no.
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
when always, I really… whenever I see you, I always really enjoy your energy, and, um, I love the way that you're able to describe things, so… Thank you so much for coming on and sharing with me today. And we will pop all of the show notes below, so people can find you and get in touch with you and get that support if they need to.
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Bonnie Grotjahn
Yeah. Well, it's been a real pleasure. Okay.
Oh, it's lovely. No, I really, I really enjoyed this, Nikki, so thank you. It's… it feels like… anyway, I love…
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Good!
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Bonnie Grotjahn
There is something magic about kind of weaving, having a woven-together conversation with
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Yes. And do you know what I also really love? Is the fact that we're talking about what… something that people perceive to be incredibly negative, and yet we've laughed a couple of times in this.
Do you mean? It doesn't have to be a heavy subject.
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Bonnie Grotjahn
different… or different perspectives, so… Totally, totally. No.
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
It doesn't have to be. Um…
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Bonnie Grotjahn
No. So, yeah.
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
So, yes, thank you so much for your time, it's been a pleasure to see you this morning!
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Bonnie Grotjahn
Great. Oh, thanks, Nikki. Cheers.
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Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach
Bye!
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Bonnie Grotjahn
Bye.