Ep #109 - Grief Turned My World Upside Down — But I Rebuilt Something Beautiful with Emma Gray

Content note: this episode contains conversation about grief, terminal illness, death, loss and the emotional impact of bereavement.

In this deeply honest and moving conversation, I’m joined by Emma Gray to talk about what grief really looks like when your world has been turned upside down.

Emma shares her experience of losing her husband, the shock of living through grief even when she thought she was prepared for it, and what the last 10 years have taught her about rebuilding life after loss. We talk about the reality of widowhood, the shame that can show up around paperwork and coping, the way grief affects your nervous system, and why joy still matters even after heartbreak. 

This is such a beautiful conversation about compassion, emotional safety and learning that you do not have to “get over it” to create something meaningful again. Emma speaks so powerfully about growing life around grief, finding your people, and giving yourself permission to feel, heal and slowly rebuild something beautiful. 

If grief has touched your life in any way, whether through the loss of a person, a relationship, an identity or an expectation, I think this episode will really speak to you. 

In this episode, we talk about:

•  grief, bereavement and widowhood 
•  terminal illness and loss 
•  nervous system regulation in grief 
•  why paperwork can feel so hard after loss 
•  guilt, shame and stored grief in the body 
•  permission to find joy again 
•  rebuilding life after heartbreak

Emma's links are:

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/rainbowhuntingmoments/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/emmacgray/

Free RHC Facebook community group page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/rainbowhuntingcommunity

Newsletter sign up & website: https://www.rainbowhunting.co.uk/blog

Paperwork membership: https://rainbowhunting.kartra.com/page/SortedSupportedSales 

You can also watch this episode on YouTube with Captions - https://www.youtube.com/@TheWorkingWomensLifeCoach

If you'd like to have a chat about how I can help you further, please don't hesitate to click here & book a time with me, I'd love to meet you.

You can also follow me on IG @NickyBevan_LifeCoach

Transcript

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach] Welcome, welcome, welcome, everybody, to this week's podcast. And I have a really special person with me today. I have Emma Gray. We… we don't really know each other that intimately, Dewey, Emma, but we met at the Home Life and New Show last… October. And, you know, you meet some people and you instantly like their energy. Well, Emma was one of those people. And her story is quite fascinating, so I will warn you ahead of time, This may bring up emotions, because we are talking grief, we're talking loss, a very significant relationship. So, on that note, Emma, do you want to introduce yourself?

[Emma Gray]
Aw, thank you, thank you for having me! Um, and yes, I definitely say that it works both ways. Like, when I met you, I was like, oh, you're my kind of person! And a little part of me is at, what point did we lose?

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Pleasure.

[Emma Gray]
use the ability to go, I really like you, will you be my friend?

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah. Will you be my friend? Yeah, I know!

[Emma Gray]
That's not what you asked them to talk about. Um, so, me, I'm Emma, and I used to be a Wilson probate lawyer, so I did death and dying in the kind of paperwork realm for many, many years, and my lovely late husband was a Royal Marine, so he did a scary job, and we'd prepared well. kind of, um, as well as you do when you're in your 30s, um, for end of life, partly because of my job, and partly because of what he did. Um, and then, golly, in 2013, he got diagnosed with esophageal cancer.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Hmm.

[Emma Gray]
But it was bad news from day one, um, so we knew that He was never going to be better, and he was on palliative care, and… I wanted to know, although he didn't want to know, which is difficult, but I wanted to know, like, what his prognosis was, so I googled it, and it said, like, 6 or 7 months, but most people who get esophageal cancer, at least then, um, We're older, so I'm not sure how long their life expectancy is. Anyway, he did two and a half years. He died in 2016, having had loads of radiotherapy, chemotherapy, and actually, it was so successful that some people thought he was in remission. But sadly he wasn't. And the kids were 3 and 5, got two girls, they were 2 and 5… 3 and 5 when he was… diagnosed, and then there were 6 and 8 when he died. Um, so I was catapulted. Um, into grief. thinking that I knew about it, because I did it

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah

[Emma Gray]
work. And I was so cocky, so I, like, I walked out of my office, prompted by HR, who was like, I think you need to go and be with your husband now. Um, two weeks before he died, um, I… and I was like, I'll see you in a couple of weeks' time, because I genuinely thought that I'd done so much grieving whilst he was alive. that I would be okay. And the night he died, I turned around to my mother, and I was just like, I never knew it was going to be this bad. like, I'm not surprised, I knew he was gonna die, but this has shocked me. Like, my heart… physically hurts. I literally am heartbroken. And not just for me, for the kids as well, because he was an awesome dad, he was so much fun. Um, but… and for him, he shouldn't have missed out on half of his life. Anyway, fast forward, and I tried to go back to the old life, um, and so I did move law firms to try and be close to home, then I moved house to be closer to school for the kids. But the old life without him in it just didn't work, and I was about to burn out. Like, when he was poorly, having a migraine at the photocopier and staying at work and keeping on doing my job was kind of normal, and I realized that you can't live in that world, that's just not sustainable. Um, and because we'd planned well for death. as it were, as well as you can, I had the financial freedom to turn around to work and say, I don't want to do this anymore. And they were like, be a partner! And I was like, no, no, no, no, I just want to stop. I want to spend time with the kids. I want to sort out the house, I've moved to this new house, and I've got a garage full of stuff. And no time to sort it all out.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah.

[Emma Gray]
And so we agreed I'd go on sabbatical. Um, so I worked down all my files so that I could hand them all over. I'm not very good at short stories, I'll get that.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
It's fine. I'll call you back if we need to.

[Emma Gray]
Anna, yeah, I handed over to my clients, because I had a gut feeling I'd never go back. Um, and two weeks after I walked out the door, we went into lockdown, and I was just like, oh, hell, like… I wanted time with my kids, but I've never been a full-time mum. I did tax exams on maternity leave. This is just not me, and I am not a teacher. I don't know how many other people learned that in lockdown, but I am not a teacher.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
I am not a teacher either.

[Emma Gray]
And my kids turning around to me going, Mum, Google knows more than you, really hurt, but it's true. So, yeah, and that's when I had a bit of an existential crisis, because

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah, yeah.

[Emma Gray]
I felt like if I'd still been a lawyer, I would have been signing wills through windows, and I wasn't doing my job as a key worker. I've never been good as a full-time mum, I just need other stuff. It's my modus operandi to be busy. Um, and I was going a bit stir-crazy, so I did a counselling qualification. Um, and then fast forward, I created Rainbow Hunting to kind of be the support that I wish I had, but at the time I created it, I'm not sure I knew what that was. Um, it's only now… it's really fascinating. It's only now that the business has been going, what, 4 or 5 years, I suddenly realized what it was I needed.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Interesting.

[Emma Gray]
Um, and things like being at the… um, was the first one, the Clean and Tidy show. I felt like a bit of an imposter, and I think that's because I hadn't realised exactly what the benefit was I was bringing to the clients, and that suddenly has hit me over time. But what I do now is…

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah.

[Emma Gray]
I'm a qualified counsellor, I'm a coach, I'm a grief educator, Um, and I focus on helping clients with two main things, really. One is what I call Grow Life Around Grief. Because the grief never goes.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah.

[Emma Gray]
But it is possible to learn how to ride it, and to grow a really beautiful life around it. Um, and then the other thing is the paperwork, and that… when we were chatting before we came on, that really sort of surprised me, because I thought I was a paperwork guru, because I used to do it as a job. And then I felt so much shame that in grief I just couldn't do it. Um, so I now have a membership and a course and things like that to kind of help people do the paperwork.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah.

[Emma Gray]
Um, and I do one-to-one therapy, which is generally about grief rather than the paperwork. Um, and I sometimes go into organizations, so I advocate that we need to talk more about grief and death, and we need to be more grief-aware, and we need to be, uh, understand what it does for people so that we can have better work environment, um, and that we can serve our clients better, because I just don't think people talk about it enough, because it hurts, and it brings up stuff for people. And it's human nature, we avoid pain and seek pleasure. It's what we do as human beings.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah, yeah. It's really, it's really fascinating, isn't it? Because I… I often sort of think this. If I died… I don't think my husband, whilst he's the most incredible person I know, Other than my two children. Um… He wouldn't know where to start. Like, with the bills, because everything's on my laptop. Everything, like, I do the banking, I… And so you just think, even… Even down to, well, how would you get into someone's laptop to find out?

[Emma Gray]
Yeah, yeah.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Like, you don't quite… I don't… think, because it's so painful, because we think it's probably never gonna happen to us, and hopefully Most of us don't have that experience, but it happens, doesn't it? Obviously, because that's why you're here talking to me, but… You don't kind of think beyond… Your current life and your current setup. So, When you look back at that time, what do you think was the… the most challenging part for you.

[Emma Gray]
Which bit of him being poorly and the preparing bit?

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
either. What comes up?

[Emma Gray]
So the hardest part, which is an awful thing to say, because he was incredibly unwell,

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
first.

[Emma Gray]
And when he was alive, I was juggling being his carer without him knowing I was being his carer, because he was so male in testosterone, he wanted me to be his wife and not his carer. Um, I was looking after the kids who were very, very little and very vulnerable, and we're a very neuro-spicy family, but everyone was undiagnosed at that point, so it was quite challenging, including me. Um, so it was quite challenging. I had my lovely in-laws come and stay with me a lot, so there's lots of changing of sheets and food and all the rest of it, and I was still working as a lawyer in quite a

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah.

[Emma Gray]
high-paced environment, and one of the bigger firms in Exeter. But one of the hardest times is the last 10 years. Solo parenting,

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Right.

[Emma Gray]
on my own. neurodivergent kids through lockdown, Um, having a child whose school refuser, she's not anymore, we've got around that now, now that we know what the problem is. But, um, and she's so much better now. But, um… that aspect of it, and learning that in all that picture, The one most important thing that always falls to the bottom of the pile. is to look after me. But no one had taught me how to look after me. I literally, like, I knew how to be in survival mode,

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah.

[Emma Gray]
But I didn't know how to treat myself, I didn't know how to encourage myself to have rest. how to plan for my energy levels. No one had taught me any of that. And that, I think the 10 years of widowhood is definitely the hardest.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Is it? Yeah. So if you could go back… and talk to yourself over the last 10 years. What would you have wanted your past self to know?

[Emma Gray]
I think I genuinely… yeah, I think I'd want me now, um, so Me Now knows that, actually,

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
That you've now learned.

[Emma Gray]
Grief turns your world upside down, but out of an earthquake, you can rebuild something quite… Amazing. Um, you know, yes, everything's fallen to pieces. Yes, you've lost some crucial key players, player in your world. But it doesn't mean that you can't create something amazing. And sometimes, actually, even get to know you better. And so the first thing is about the small stuff, like, really small stuff, and whatever I start with, whether I start with paperwork, or emotions or anything, I always start with what I call foundations, which is, like, how are you? Are you sleeping? Are you eating? Are you getting outside? Like, you can't… add something big, therapy, paperwork, whatever it is, into your world, if you're not already looking after… to yourself. Um, so I'd want my past self to understand how vital… and sleep I wish my past self had known how much nicer I am when I've got Well, I'm well-rested, and I've had sleep. Um, you know, it's like, I often say to people when they're poorly, like, sleep is the best medicine, like, it's incredible. Um, and then the paperwork is to understand that the reason I was struggling with the paperwork, which filled me with so much shame, because I was this bloody award-winning… sorry, I've just sworn, um,

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
No, we're all for the fucks here. This just hasn't happened yet! Which is surprising!

[Emma Gray]
Okay. That's brilliant. I fit in right in, that's amazing. Um, but yeah, I wish that past me had… I could release so much shame if I'd understood that grief shrinks your window of time tolerance. So, actually, it's totally normal to either be hypervigilant, waiting for the next disaster to happen, or to shut down.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yes.

[Emma Gray]
And sometimes an inability to do the paperwork is actually a nervous system protection, and so the first thing you've got to do is regulate your nervous system and give yourself compassion. Like, love heals trauma. Like, give yourself compassion for the fact, this is hard! You're not doing it, because it's

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah.

[Emma Gray]
Hot…

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah…

[Emma Gray]
And then the final thing, so then sort of work out what you need to calm your nervous system, which is why I've done my membership, because I don't believe in just me, I believe sometimes you need to find your tribe, your people. And because that makes you realize that you're not abnormal, you're not broken, other people are going through exactly the same thing as you, and that's fine.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah, yeah.

[Emma Gray]
But the final thing is joy. Yeah, I wish that I had been given permission to… because I could do joy for the kids, because that was needed. But for me to find joy, and for me to realize I can do stuff just for me, like, in fact, I forgot for a while, in lockdown, someone asked me, What does Emma do for fun? And I was like, oh, well, I go and do this? No, what… on your own, not with the kids. It's not the kids' activities. What do you do for fun for you? And I was like,

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah…

[Emma Gray]
I actually don't know.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah… yeah, because we don't… We don't put ourselves first, do we? We just… we don't. For whatever reason. It's not our natural instinct to do it. So, by giving yourself… I love that, by giving yourself permission to find joy, Um, for yourself, I think is huge. I'm curious, though, Emma, does there… Is there a guilt associated to that? Like, I would imagine… It would be like, well, who the fuck am I to… to feel joy and happy when… this person that I love so deeply has died. Like, I wonder if that dynamic is just… like, comp… complex.

[Emma Gray]
It's complex on so many levels, like, on the most basic level, there was my guilt of, like,

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah.

[Emma Gray]
I was alive and he was dead. So, like, why was it that way round? Like, why wasn't it the other way around? Like, so that was, like, first level.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah.

[Emma Gray]
And then there was a layer of, like, feeling guilty that because he wasn't around, he was missing out. And it still hits me, so my elder daughter's just turned 18,

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah.

[Emma Gray]
And if anyone follows me on socials, I've literally… I've ended up having ECGs and bloods done and everything, because the grief was stored in my body, and I was having heart palpitations and chest pains, And it was the grief, but it wasn't… it was fascinating, because this time it wasn't a grief for me. It was a grief for the kids that they haven't

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah.

[Emma Gray]
him here, and agree for him that he's not here to join, but then it goes even wider than that, and it's like a guilt that… You know, the in-laws, like, do they wish that it was me and not him, so that he's… he's here? Um, you know, and people so often see my… grief, but they don't see other people's grief. But their grief is equally there and equally painful. You just can't compare them. And then there's, like, what will other people think? And now I just…

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah…

[Emma Gray]
books, and I'm just like, like, genuinely, the one thing Simon said to me that was the most… helpful thing, I think he could ever have done, is he wrote me a letter that I opened the night that he died. And, um, he really did do a lot to die well, and this is why I'm so passionate about my course and things like that, because I think it really… you can't take away the pain of the grief, but you can't

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah.

[Emma Gray]
make everything around it a bit easier. And one thing he said to me in there is, um, you need to go out and have fun, because if you have fun, the kids will have fun. But if you're not having fun, the kids will struggle, and we are, we're systemic, aren't we? We're born…

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, so interesting.

[Emma Gray]
vibe.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
So, how did you get beyond the guilt to be able to find joy for yourself.

[Emma Gray]
Ooh, that's a really interesting question. I think some of it's been time. Um, I've never really thought about this before. I think some of it's been time. I think some of it… is just learning that life's too short, and, you know… I've done a lot of work on me as well. Like, not just since he died. I went into… therapy for the first time when he went to Afghanistan, and I fell to pieces when he came home, which is fascinatingly, often when wives fall to pieces.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah.

[Emma Gray]
And then, again, when he was diagnosed, I… I said straight away, I still remember in the hospital when we heard that he was terminally ill, I was like, I need a therapist. Is there any charity or anyone who can help me? I want to know how to talk to the kids.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah.

[Emma Gray]
And then I quickly realized I was actually talking about me the whole time. But, um…

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah, yeah.

[Emma Gray]
But I've had a lot of therapy, and also doing the coaching qualification, I've tapped into lots of different things. I've had ECR, I've done Ep coin therapy, I've done art therapy, partly because I wanted to know what it was like, because I'm nosy, um, but also partly because I felt like I'd done a lot of talking therapy,

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah. Yeah.

[Emma Gray]
And I want to try something, and I really believe that some of these emotions are… in the body, and things like anger and guilt often have other stuff behind them. them, and fascinatingly, I finally got the answer to your question, after going around a little bit. I don't think the answer to your question about the guilt. is realizing that quite a lot of it related to Actually, 12-year-old me. and 12-year-old me not feeling like I fit in, and I finally made peace with all of that.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah…

[Emma Gray]
Um, it's really interesting.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah. And I…

[Emma Gray]
But that's take one.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah, and I think that's when the compassion comes in, isn't it? Like, looking at… all of that conditioning, looking at the past, looking at what your, like, the child And you did or does, and their needs, and it is… it is a fascinating kind of blend of… I was… so I was talking to a psychotherapist a couple of weeks ago, she, um… Bonnie, her name is, and she calls it a grief stew. It's like an emotional stew, where you've got, you know, you've got anger, you've got resentment, you've got guilt, you've got shame, you've got grief, and you've got all of these emotions, kind of, combined into a stew. And it's just, like… We're gonna talk about that one today, or we're going to look at that one today, and I do really believe that anger, especially, I hadn't really considered it about guilt, actually, but I think it probably could be. Uh, but anger definitely is a protective mechanism. Like, it's a protective emotion.

[Emma Gray]
Oh, yeah, that… yeah.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
like, we go to anger and frustration, because that's seemingly easier to deal with than the pain underneath.

[Emma Gray]
Yeah, and I often think anger does exactly what it needs to do, because it keeps us safe, it repels things that are threatening, so it keeps us safe, and it gets such a bad rap.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah.

[Emma Gray]
say to my kids, um, that often when anger is involved, Um, there's often fear behind it.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yes.

[Emma Gray]
And actually, it's the fear that's feeding it, and the anger itself is just data, it's just information. What you say and do when you're angry, that's different, and that might not be right, but the anger itself is good, it's just trying to help you, it's just trying to tell you stuff.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

[Emma Gray]
I think anger gets a really bad rap, but I love what you said about the grief stew. I often say a tapestry. Because I think it's just so interwoven that, um, and sometimes it is, like, in therapy, you can just pull a thread out,

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah.

[Emma Gray]
And actually, sometimes when you look at that thread, you suddenly see it on its own, and its own uniqueness, and you get a whole different story, and when it goes back in the picture, it's totally different. It's really fascinating.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah, it is interesting. Can I just swing back to the sleep? Um, for just a second. And I… we're not doctors here, right, so we're not gonna diagnose or tell anybody what to do, but What I would be curious to hear what your views are around… using conventional medicine in order to, like, help us sleep, maybe numb some of those emotions? Like, what is your view on that? Was it your experience? if you're willing to share, if you're not, just say.

[Emma Gray]
Yeah, before I answer, when you say conventional medicine, what do you mean?

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
I mean, like, Western, like, as in antidepressants or sleep… sleep tablets or something, prescriptive drugs, I suppose.

[Emma Gray]
So, I'm… yeah.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Well, any drug, actually. Sugar, sugar and alcohol included.

[Emma Gray]
So, probably a little bit like you, I come from a totally non-judgmental, so anything I say, there's no judgement with this at all, but I often think that the prescriptive stuff is a sticking plaster.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah. Yeah.

[Emma Gray]
Sometimes it's a much-needed sticking plaster, because it just stops the stem, and it gives you a breather and a break.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah.

[Emma Gray]
But, so yes, like, what you use to sleep can be really useful, and I mean, I have to… I have to confess that even now, like, 10 years in, I cannot go to sleep without listening to exactly the same calm meditation app, And that's, like, the sleep trigger, and that's what sends me off. My brain is so busy, I have to have something that helps it shut up.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah.

[Emma Gray]
Um, so whatever you need to sleep, but with the prescriptive stuff. I do think a sticking plaster can't heal the wound behind it. And that's where I think that what you do and what I do is invaluable, because…

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah.

[Emma Gray]
That's the deeper stuff, and unfortunately, a little bit like healing a bone, that's the slower stuff. It's gonna take longer, it's not gonna be so instantaneous, you're not going to get a dopamine kick, it's gonna be really hard at times.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah…

[Emma Gray]
But it's that deeper work, so… so I'm all for the prescriptive stuff, but used correctly.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah.

[Emma Gray]
And I'm a big one for not being judgmental about coping strategies.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yes, yeah.

[Emma Gray]
They're probably a little bit like you, I'm… I'm a little bit of a geek when it comes to psychotherapy, and I'm a total fangirl of gabblemate, and he…

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah.

[Emma Gray]
He always says it's not why the addiction, it's why the pain, and I'm… I'm really a big believer about that. So, you know, if people have any kind of addiction, from drugs and alcohol and sex to whatever it might be, social media, I mean, social media was definitely mine, without… it's been my… one of my biggest struggles in widowhood.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yes.

[Emma Gray]
But I… there's no judgment about it, but it's a coping strategy.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah.

[Emma Gray]
First of all, the awareness of the addiction, and then it's a, how can I do something that's a healthier coping strategy? What can I build in that's better for me? And you will have your own answers. But finding those answers can be really hard and really uncomfortable sometimes.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's really… I… it's really interesting when you say about social media, because generally, I'm not a… I'm on social media for my business, but I'm not a scroller. Like, I… I am quite… disciplined of how much I'm on my phone. But even last night, I didn't want to go to bed, because I didn't want to get up on a Monday morning and feel all the self-doubt that I always have on a Monday morning. And so I found myself, like, just looking for something To take on, like, on Instagram. And I caught myself, I'm like, right, This won't be helpful. Let's put it down, and let's go to bed. And I've got the emotional resilience skill. Like, I… this is what I'm an expert in. And so I think for the people that… The people that don't… no one teaches us how to deal with our emotions. It's… and then, so when we have to deal with something really fucking shit, like grief, Like shame. Like embarrassment, like anxiety. If we haven't been taught that skill, it makes… Total sense that we're gonna try and escape.

[Emma Gray]
100%.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
And the problem is with phones, and sugar, and alcohol, and drugs, and porn, and… or the other… Netflix said…

[Emma Gray]
Seems amazing!

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah, yeah. It's… yeah, exactly, and it's… it always… it all comes back to the same thing, doesn't it? That we're always trying to avoid. An emotion. that actually the emotion itself is harmless, uncomfortable, yes. but harmless. And especially with grief, I think grief… and I've been… very fortunate in my life to have not lost significant people yet. Both my parents are still alive, my in-laws are still alive, My siblings and my family, like, immediate family, all still alive. I lost my dog last year, and this was the first introduction. to grief, and… but it was such a… It was such a beautiful introduction, because we all sat, Me, Johnny, and the boys We sat and cried with her, like, until we took her to the vets. And I'm so beyond grateful that they got to experience that. I mean, I don't know. Them losing their pet might be more traumatic than losing a grandparent. I don't know yet, but… It was… it was the purest thing to do, to sit… And allow ourselves to cry and feel and express that grief. felt pure and natural.

[Emma Gray]
Yeah.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
But I can only do that because I'm okay with my emotions.

[Emma Gray]
Yeah.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
And I think for the people… when we've never been taught, How do people process, like… Well, they… I don't suppose they do, I guess.

[Emma Gray]
No, I don't think they do, and… And so I… you know, I said this last week to a client, but last year, I had one day where every single one of my clients cried

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Eating my hair.

[Emma Gray]
for pretty much the whole session.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah.

[Emma Gray]
And I don't try and stop them crying, because I think that it's very rare in life to have someone who can sit with you in the pain.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yep.

[Emma Gray]
I don't know if you've ever heard, um, Julia Samuels done a TED talk called The Paradox of Pain. If you've not watched it,

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Oh, no.

[Emma Gray]
definitely go and watch it, it's brilliant. Um, and, um, one of the things she says, and it kind of reminds me of that kid's book of going on a bear hunt, But you can't… you can't avoid pain. You've got to go through it, you know, you can't go around it, you can't go over it, you can't shut it in a box.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah.

[Emma Gray]
And I sometimes think that the thought of the pain can stop people coming from… to you and me, Because they're so worried about opening the box, and I've had… so many clients, especially recently, who've almost avoided therapy because they're scared of the pain, but that's the whole point, is to help them process it.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah.

[Emma Gray]
But what they have to learn to do first is to trust. that actually we're never… and what I often say is it's like having Pandora's box, but you can have Pandora's Box in the room and just both know it's in the room, and then just talk, knowing that Pandora's box is there. And then maybe there's a conversation of what would it be like to open the box? Are you ready to open the box? Is opening the box now the right time? Or do we just talk around it?

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah.

[Emma Gray]
But we don't avoid it. It's there, we know it's there, but it's only when they're 100% sure that they feel safe that they open the box, and the relief is often palpable, because it's often not nearly as bad as they think.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah.

[Emma Gray]
actually what's helped us to get there is knowing that they're safe and they're held, and that I'll love them no matter what the box looks like. And I do think that people don't realize that love

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah. Yeah.

[Emma Gray]
heals trauma, and…

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah…

[Emma Gray]
we've got to stop searching for the love externally, and learn, and this was my biggest lesson in And I guess this comes back to how you found joy, um, but my biggest lesson in grief… was to learn to love every part of me, even the bullied 12-year-old, you know, even the bits that I've shut in a box for years and years and years. Because it's finding compassion and love for all those different parts of me.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah.

[Emma Gray]
that mean that I'm finally… I mean, I'm never going to be totally okay, I literally was chitting myself about going to a big event on Saturday, but that, you know, little girl is still a part of who I am. But I've learned how to manage her, and how to look after her, and how to make her feel a bit more welcome. and a bit happier at stepping outside her comfort zone so that she can do stuff.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah. Yeah. It's…

[Emma Gray]
So…

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
It's fascinating, isn't it? Because I think, going back to the emotions, People… I think the misconception is that if they cry, if they start crying, they'll never stop. Or if they… if they experience their anger, they'll never then have peace.

[Emma Gray]
Yes. Yeah.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
So people avoid it, and there's no peace. Whereas, actually, when you give yourself permission to cry, to feel the emotion, to rock with snot bubbles, and I'm… I'm with all of that with my clients. I'm like, this is a space to do all of that.

[Emma Gray]
Yes.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Um, the other side is a piece.

[Emma Gray]
Yeah.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Because it's process… it's like water flowing, if water's designed to flow, and our emotions are designed to flow. And the minute we stop them because of fear of it… them never stopping, it stagnates. And at some… something will happen at some point that's going to force you to deal with it, at some point. Um, and it's really, yeah, it's… so you feel like you're going to go down this hole and never come out again, but the opposite is true. It's actually expressing and moving and… However, your body needs to do it. tears, or shouting, or whatever, you know, not at… I don't agree with app people, but…

[Emma Gray]
I am… I'll never forget a cruise cliente, because I did my placement hours for my my therapy with the bereavement charity Cruise.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah.

[Emma Gray]
And this cruise client was terrified. She was an elderly lady, and she was terrified of crying, because she was worried she wasn't going to stop. And I said to her, I was like, have you ever cried before in your whole entire life? I was like, yes. And I was like, did you stop? She's like, yes. I was like, so you're 100% successful at stopping?

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah. Yeah.

[Emma Gray]
You're not crying now, so you'll remember how to stop. It's okay. It's fine. You've always been 100% successful in the past. You're gonna be alright.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah. Yeah.

[Emma Gray]
And the other thing that seems to help clients is I tell them about, um, do you know what's the similarity between hugs? And crying, and um… and then often they draw a blank, and I'm like, well, do you know what chemical your body releases when you have a hug with someone you love? And then they're a bit UA and R-y, and I'm like, it's oxytocin. So it's a feel-good hormone. So when you're crying, your body is releasing I think oxytocin, which is why you feel better the other side. And isn't it amazing that your body instinctively knows how to cheer you up? Yes, you're crying, but it's making you feel better.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah. Yeah, I hadn't ever actually looked at it from that perspective. I… because I… but yeah, it's really… I hadn't… I hadn't looked at the chemical element of… of crying. But I just know that thing I can… A fucking good cry.

[Emma Gray]
Yeah, 100%. A really good cry is so important. And I'll never forget you at the Home Life and You being like, I'm safe with these emotions. What can you say? I can't remember what you said.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah. Yes. So it was that, like, so self-doubt, I'm safe to experience self-doubt.

[Emma Gray]
Yeah, I love it. I thought it was amazing.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah. Yeah. It's… it is… And it's the one thing that always gets me through, um, you know, like… Going back to actually what you just said a second ago, I'm not… you're not perfect at it all the time. I don't think our job is to be 100% okay, all… I think… and actually, I think that's a complete load of toxic bullshit. So it's, you know, when you've got those moments like you had at the weekend and you're nervous, or the imposter syndrome kicks in, or for me, it's self-doubt. South Date is a huge part of my journey at the moment. And so I don't try and get rid of self-doubank now. I've just learned, with a tenderness and with compassion, to just go, okay. I'm safe to feel this emotion. And whatever my brain is freaking out about, may or may not happen. But I don't say it anymore in a judgmental tone. I don't… so I've got… and as a real-life example, I'm waiting for a client to pay.

[Emma Gray]
Mm-mm.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Um, currently. And, um… I… I had a text message pop up on my phone last night, and my brain was like, that's it! She's changed her mind, she's not paying. And I was just like, okay… But you might not be true. And I looked at my phone, and it was actually to say, pop the money in your bank account, all paid. So I'm like, see? Our brain… doesn't actually tell us the truth. It doesn't. And I think our emotional emotions are the same. We all think that when we have… I think grief might be… slightly different in the sense that Um, you know, we have lost something. You know, that could be a person, it could be a pet, it could be an identity, it could be an unmet expectation. It could be a job you didn't get, like, there could be… Grief is a loss of something. But I don't think it neces… our emotions don't accurately predict The truth. So we don't really need to avoid them.

[Emma Gray]
Yeah, and I love that you didn't identify it with the loss of a person, because, you know, people often… I had someone the other day say to me, I know you're a grief coach, but can you do the other stuff? And I'm like, oh, it's all about the other stuff.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Emma Gray]
The grief is the presenting problem, but the reason that people are stuck is the grief has highlighted other stuff. that's not been processed, that is the real stuff, that is actually what we really work with. Everything I do is about the other stuff, really.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yes. Yeah, yeah.

[Emma Gray]
You know, it so often is. And going back to what you were saying about self-doubt, one of the things that I've told myself, and… and I… it's been a… it's definitely been a… something I took to supervision, because I… I struggled with the fact that a lot of therapists, so I've called myself a coach for a while, and coaches seem quite open in sharing their personal life. And I'm funny with my personal life, because I do have boundaries, but people feel like they know me very well, because I do share a lot. I'm one of life's oversharers.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah.

[Emma Gray]
Um, and so when I then became a qualified therapist and a counsellor. I was like, but counsellors keep this, like, stum, and they don't tell anyone about their life. So I took to supervision, like, this feels really uncomfortable, because I don't want to change the way I've been, because I'm… I am me. And she was like, but if you were going for therapy, wouldn't you love to know that the person has got it, that their person has died, and that they know it, and that they're not perfect, and that they've not got their shit together? And I was like, yeah, and she's like, just keep doing what you're doing. And so I kept doing what I was doing, and actually, the people… people come to me because…

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah.

[Emma Gray]
They have an affinity with some of my story, a part of my story, and they feel like I will get it.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah.

[Emma Gray]
And so, I might be weird and quirky and different in the therapy space, but… I'm not going to change who I am, it's… and if people don't like me, they don't like me, and… and what you were saying about the self-doubt, I really often say to myself, and I have done a lot this, um, this year, and I've grown in confidence a huge amount this year already, and we've only done, like, a quarter of it.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
No.

[Emma Gray]
But, um, is this or something better?

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yes. Yeah.

[Emma Gray]
And I love that, you know? Is this all something better? And I really, really like that, because yes, that client might say no, but if they don't, then maybe a different client will come and take that space, who's even better and stays with you for 2 or 3 packages.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[Emma Gray]
You know? And it's kind of this or something better has, like, really, really helped me on lots of levels.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah, that's a great manifestation tip, isn't it? It's like this, or something greater, and then… I learned from my coach, Jamie Berman, she's incredible, um… For the… and it's this, or something better for the greater good of all concerned. So it's not just… better for me, it's better for everybody involved.

[Emma Gray]
But he's saying…

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah, so she always… I've… I've learned to have that on the end.

[Emma Gray]
That's amazing, I might…

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah…

[Emma Gray]
That's amazing.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah, yeah, she's… she's great. She's got a really good podcast. She was on my podcast a couple of weeks ago. Right, so anyway, we've digressed a little bit. So, tell me… I'm just aware of time, so I'm gonna start, um… I'm gonna start bringing it to a close, but I always seem to say this to… To my podcast interviews. I think we could probably talk about stuff for hours. Um, which is always really lovely that, like, that's what… that's what the podcast attracts, and I love it for that. But if you were to… If someone was listening, and they're ex… they're going through grief, whether it's a loss of someone, something, or an identity, or an unmet expectation, whatever their experience of the grief is, What would you really want them to know?

[Emma Gray]
So, I think two things. Uh, well, no, maybe three things, um… Yeah, maybe 3 things, and I've actually written them down, so I don't have them, because otherwise I've got halfway through a story and I forget the ending.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah.

[Emma Gray]
So I think three things. I think the first thing is the reason I called my business Rainbow Hunting is because We all have storms, and when you're in the storm, it can feel like it's gonna go on forever, a little bit like we said about the emotions. Um, and it can feel cold, and it feels wet, and lonely, and just utterly miserable. But actually, we need to have hope and faith, because the sun and the stars is very naff, but they're still there. They haven't gone anywhere, you just can't see them at the moment. And you have to go chasing your rainbows. Um, so… and the rainbows are amazing, because it takes the rain and the sun to see the colours, so you need shit to be able to see all the beauty. So the first thing I would say is to go, like, is the little

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah.

[Emma Gray]
Things that are the big things. The rainbows are often the tiny things. It's the cup of tea that you actually manage to finish, sat in the garden listening to the birds, you know, or listening to someone laughing and realizing that that's such a nice sound. Like, it really is the tiny, tiny, tiny hug with someone you love. Like, it's the tiny stuff, the… the rainbows. And the second thing is definitely love, um, and is not just to seek… it's lovely to have the love externally, and we all like validation and all the rest of it. But it's learning to love all the parts of yourself, and to have compassion for all the emotions, and to forgive yourself, because you can only do the best you can at the time. With the knowledge and information that you have at the time, and you know now so much more, but you didn't know it then, so how could you have acted differently then?

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah.

[Emma Gray]
And then the last thing is about routine, and that's why I like the paperwork being sorted, because sometimes it's the routine and the structure that gets you through the day. It's breaking things down into little steps. So, yeah, the rainbows, the love. And the routine, I think, would be my…

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah, yeah, that's so lovely. I love that so much. So, on that note, um, should we be friends? Would you like to be friends with me?

[Emma Gray]
I'd love to be friends!

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
I think at the end of this, we should, um, like, before we leave each other today, we should organize a date to actually get, because… we'll talk about this off the podcast, but let's… because I don't think we ask… it's funny, isn't it? We don't actually ask people that enough, do we? It's like… Would you like to be my friend?

[Emma Gray]
I can't tell you, Nicky. So, so, when, um, my kids do ponies, and after my husband died, um, there was a back of a trailer open, and my daughter and another…

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
And we don't do that as adults.

[Emma Gray]
Another little girl, who she really didn't know that very well, talking so earnestly and happily, sat on the back end of this trailer. And afterwards, I was like, what were you saying? And she's like, oh, I just asked her if she'd be my friend, and she told me she would love to be my friend. And back then, I was just like, why don't we do… at what point do we lose the ability?

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Oh Yeah.

[Emma Gray]
To say, please, can you be my friend? Because I really like being friends with you.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah, I know, it's like… I could always remember when I used to go camping as a kid, like, my parents always used to take us camping. And I can remember, you would arrive and you'd see all the other kids playing, and you… there'd be this, like, hesitation, and, like, it would take up the courage to, when do I go overlo? When do I go over? And then eventually, you would get the courage to go over and go, Can I play with you? Do you want to be my friend? And then you were, like, best mates for the whole week.

[Emma Gray]
Yeah.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
And I just think, yeah, at what point do we lose that? Yeah, it's funny, isn't it? How we do lose that as adults.

[Emma Gray]
Well, maybe we can gift it to people. Go out and ask people if they'll be your friends.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yes, let's do that. Let's encourage people to do that. Well, Um, is there anything that we haven't covered that you think is relevant to cover before we end today?

[Emma Gray]
Oh, golly, I could talk for hours, like, literally. The only thing I would say is never be frightened to reach out, because… Sometimes people are like, oh, I've been wanting to ask you, but I didn't… and I'm like, social media is called social media, because it's social, it's interactive, and if you're too frightened to write a comment,

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah.

[Emma Gray]
then DM me, and just say I listened to the podcast, or… because I think we're… I think… I think that's the only thing I'd encourage people to do, is to just reach out, because I think people forget that we're normal human beings, and if everybody is thinking that we're fine on our own, then nobody's gonna say, hey, Nicky, you did an awesome podcast the other day.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah, yeah.

[Emma Gray]
Um, no, so actually, it's really lovely, and it also helps us to do our jobs, because If someone reaches out and say, this bit really resonated because… it's like, oh, so that's obviously… my people like that, so I need to provide a bit more of that. So, I think the only thing I would say is, yeah, just reach out, just…

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah.

[Emma Gray]
Just let us know what you like and what you hate, because it's all useful.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah, it's all useful. Actually, what I hate is probably more useful than what I love. If it's that… if they're your ideal client, if they're not your ideal client, then we may not listen, but… But we are ultimately here to help everybody, so, um, yeah, we… all the feedback is very, very welcome. I actually like feedback. I think it's really good. Yeah, so good.

[Emma Gray]
Yeah, 100%.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Well, thank you so much for coming and talking to me today. It's been an absolute honour, and I'm so glad we finally got around to doing it, because it's… It's been, well, a little while. We've been saying about it, so yes, I'm so pleased. And, um, to everybody else, I will see you next week! Bye-bye! And the recording… Recording stopped. There we go!

[Emma Gray]
to be your friend!

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yes! Let's do… because you're in… remind me again where you are?

[Emma Gray]
So I'm based near Tunton in Somerset, really close, 5 minutes from the M5.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah, let me just get up.

[Emma Gray]
Whereabouts are you?

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Well, I'm Radstock, which is just south of Bath. So Taunted…

[Emma Gray]
Oh my god, my daughter wants to go to Bath Spa uni.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Oh, does she?

[Emma Gray]
Yes! So you might see me lots!

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
I would… that would be lovely! That… because I'm in Bath all the time. Actually…

[Emma Gray]
Can I ask a favor? Could we maybe do some wild swimming? Because I've seen you like it, and I don't have very many world swimming friends.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
I would love it! Do you swim yourself?

[Emma Gray]
Oh, I'm shit, but I quite like cold water immersion, and I'm shit. Like, I probably can't go in for longer than 5 minutes at the moment, because I just don't do it enough, but I've done it all through the year. I've got one friend who's based down in Exmouth,

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Oh, is this a…?

[Emma Gray]
But I haven't done it for, gosh, I'd say maybe 4 or 5 months now, so I'd have to start again at the beginning, but…

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah.

[Emma Gray]
I've got a wetsuit, but I don't really like wearing the wetsuit. I like to just be in a cozzy, but I sometimes have to…

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah, wetsuits are great if you want to swim.

[Emma Gray]
I get Raynards, so I sometimes have to put boots on and stuff, because, um, if it's really cold. But if it's really cold, it's amazing, I feel, like, alive. It's just…

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Oh, I love it. I was there this morning. Oh, that's why I've still got… I've…

[Emma Gray]
Oh, I'm so jealous!

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
I haven't quite warmed up yet today, which is unusual. I'm usually hot… pop… I'm usually, yeah, over it by now, but today I'm… I'm having a precious day. I'm having a precious week, actually. And I don't usually do precious, it's just, you know, the highs… Having your own business is a challenge.

[Emma Gray]
is so fucking hard.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
At times.

[Emma Gray]
I don't know how many… how… how far into… how many years have you been going now?

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Well, I've certified in 2020, so I feel like, and this is the shame, when shame comes up, I'm like, I think you should be further along now, Nikki.

[Emma Gray]
no timeline for it.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
So,

[Emma Gray]
I think a little bit like grief. You can have waves of it, and it'll come and knock you to one side, and it'll just take one client, or one comment, or one something, and suddenly you're like, am I doing the right thing? Should I…

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah. Yeah…

[Emma Gray]
doing this, this is really shit. Um, yeah, honestly, I've got one client, and I still need to. She's the only client in the whole running of my business who's ever ghosted me, like, she's paid, and then she had a couple of sessions, and then she just… her grief is very complex. She's by murder, like, she's really complex.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah.

[Emma Gray]
Um, so, um, and then she's… I technically owe her a bit of money, but she's just not rocked up to the sessions, and I need to do an official, like, closed care email, and I just keep postponing it.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah…

[Emma Gray]
My supervisor was like, why have you not done it? And I'm like, Because I'm scared, like…

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah, it is… it is a whole growth… it is a whole growth thing. So, um, that's probably why I'm still cold, because, yeah, my body's a bit precious, but, um…

[Emma Gray]
Heated blankets.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
That, and then… pardon?

[Emma Gray]
You've got heated blanket?

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Though I don't do heat, no, because, Mike… Naples has gifted me heat.

[Emma Gray]
Okay.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Or the perimenopause has gifted me heat.

[Emma Gray]
Okay.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
So I think this is why I really love cold water, because I generally, generally run hot these days. Um, so cold isn't usually…

[Emma Gray]
Look at my feet, I'm feeling hot. I shut the door in case my daughter walked in, because she's home today, my school refuser. She's not normally a school refuser, but she did CCF this weekend, and she's knacke.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah. She's tired.

[Emma Gray]
So she went for one lesson, and then I went and picked her up, because she…

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah. So when you're visiting Bath frequently, I host a networking lunch on a Friday.

[Emma Gray]
Oh, Friday's my me day! That's exciting!

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
So, if you… if you find yourself coming to Bath, I'll find out when every… it's once a month.

[Emma Gray]
Okay.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
On the second Friday of the month?

[Emma Gray]
And is it something where you have speakers, or is it just really chill, or…?

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Um, it is quite formal, that one. Um, it's, um… So we have the first half an hour is free networking, so you chat chat to people in the room. And then we sit down, and we have lunch, and whilst we're eating, everyone does their 60-second like, they're… you know, one-minute pitch. Um, with an icebreaker question. And then we have one of our members does a 10-minute slot about them and their business, and… their life and all of that. Then we have a business surgery, so that's where people can ask questions and go, what would you do if, or have you ever experienced, or… Can you give me some advice on? type questions. Um, and then we do have a keynote. So the keynote speaker is… It's usually something around business. Um, last month, we had, um, she's really interesting, I've heard her a couple of times now. She is a neurodivergent coach and trainer.

[Emma Gray]
Ooh…

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Um, and she… so that was really interesting. So we have different… Um,

[Emma Gray]
You have a newsletter about it all, or how do people find out about it?

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
So, if you… it's not my business, I just host this particular… this particular one. But if you went onto the website, it's, um… well, there's two. There's Women Mean Bez, which is just women. That's also in Bath, but that's on a Thursday. There's others locally, so… Um, there's a really nice one in Somerset that I go to, uh, that's a women mean beds, that's on a Monday. But the We Mean Biz that I host, so the website would be WeMeBiz, But if one of my members can't make it, I can give that slot to somebody, so they get a free lunch and networking, which is a really nice way to… it might be too far for you to…

[Emma Gray]
But if I'm coming up to see Live anyway,

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
travel to… Yeah, if it ever… if it ever coordinates…

[Emma Gray]
And if you ever wanted me to speak, like, I could do, like, what happens if grief hits your business?

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Well, this, yeah, so if you wanted to do keynotes, um, The… I don't… organize them, but you would need to email admin… at We Mean Biz, or Admin at Women MeanBiz. Because the women mean biz have more groups, so there's one in North Somerset, Clevedon, which, if you're on the motorway, that would be… just on, up, and off. Do you know Cleveden?

[Emma Gray]
I know roughly where it is.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah. The Somerset one is… there's one in Bristol. The Somerset one isn't that close to the motorway, so from Taunton, you're probably looking at about, I don't know, an hour… Maybe an hour and 10 minutes, with some of our keynoters do travel to. If it's something to… if it's definitely… if you email them, And you like the locations, and you're willing to travel, they're always looking for keynote speakers.

[Emma Gray]
I don't mind doing them. I just need to, like, I'll park it for now. But I'll put it in my, like, plan for the future, um, because I… I love talking, and when, um…

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah.

[Emma Gray]
And I don't think enough people talk about grief and death.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
No. No.

[Emma Gray]
And… and I think it's the one thing that's going to hit everyone, so I just…

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
at some point.

[Emma Gray]
I'm trying to move to a space where I'm always paid to do it, but if…

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah.

[Emma Gray]
in it for me, like networking and stuff, then I let it slip, so…

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah, yeah, that's what I'm trying to do now. I'm trying to only do them If they're paid. They, they, they would… these ones wouldn't be paid. Um, and actually, you have to pay for your lunch, even though you're the speaker. It's a reduced rate, but… So, you do have to make sure that it's… You're marketing yourself quite well, without… without being… because they don't actually like their keynotes being heavy sellers. Um, which I think's a bit…

[Emma Gray]
I'm not very good at heavy selling, I can't… I just… it makes my skin crawl, so…

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
No, I'm not. Which is probably why I haven't got 6. As a… I have got successful business, I have made a profit. But it's not quite at the level that I want it to be at, and that's probably why, because I don't… I avoid the selling. So let's have a look at, um… Toolton. Let's see what is… for me, where…

[Emma Gray]
Pathway worked, would you say… where do you say you were?

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
I'm Radstock, which is south of Bath, so we're about an hour and a half. But we could meet somewhere like Glastonbury, looks like it's rights back, almost smack bang in the middle. So it does say the quickest route is to go up the motorway and across, but um…

[Emma Gray]
But yeah, we could meet maybe at Clastenbury. I don't know Glastonbury at all. But if we…

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Or Clark's Village.

[Emma Gray]
Or Clark Village, yeah, yeah, yeah. They're both…

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
How long does it take you to get to Clarks Village?

[Emma Gray]
Oh, it's not too bad to close village. Me too sacks. And I feel really fluy today.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Oh, to you.

[Emma Gray]
Yeah, I think it's going to the party in London, I think I picked something up. And 45 minutes, no problem. We could do clods.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah, and it's about the same… so that would work, actually, wouldn't it? Because that's the… that's what it is for…

[Emma Gray]
And I wouldn't mind going to Clarks Village, because I think, um, I need to slowly… It's really fascinating. Part of grief, my, like… like, everything I like has changed.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah…

[Emma Gray]
don't like my wardrobe anymore, so, um, it's either too formal, or it's… not formal enough, if that makes any sense. Like, I don't really have a halfway house, so I like going and just browsing with no aim and seeing whether something jumps out at me.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Have you ever had your colours done?

[Emma Gray]
a long time ago, I think I probably need them redoing now, my hair's a bit greyer.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
So I…

[Emma Gray]
Because, I mean, there is actually quite grey, that's why I've got the white bit.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
I think your hair's lush.

[Emma Gray]
It's annoyed.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Um, I think it's amazing. Um, I… one of my friends, she… Does it completely differently.

[Emma Gray]
Oh,

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Uh, she does it on an energetic level. She's the only person in England to do it, so you actually start with your eyes closed,

[Emma Gray]
Ooh!

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
So you… you… You start with your eyes closed, you'll put the color over you, And you… you… you talk through how it makes you feel from an energetic perspective. Then you open your eyes and you look in the mirror, but you can't see the color that you're wearing. You can only see… and then you talk about what you can see in It's so fascinating, and then she'll reveal the color at the end. So it takes the brain and the conditioning out of it completely. Which just fascinated… I didn't realize how much conditioning I had around colours. So, fortunately, I'm a winter, so there's winter, summer, spring, and autumn, you probably know that. Um, and I'm fortunately a winter, so it's… winter's… it's only a winter that can wear black or white, and I… I've always enjoyed being in black, But my mum used to say to me, You already wear black to a funeral. Blacks dull.

[Emma Gray]
Oh, I quite like wearing black, but then I'm the widow, so…

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah, yeah, but I… so… But black, for me, just makes me feel so open, so welcoming, really warm color, so I just live in black now.

[Emma Gray]
Yep.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
And my mum's like, You're wearing all black, and I'm like, yes, I am! Yes, I am! And, um, but Blue, this is a real kind of authoritative color, so when I'm on stage, this is the color that I need to be wearing, because it's like, right, I'm… I'm an authority, you can listen to me, like, it really is a really bold color. But I used to think blue… Like, on me, I think Blue's really old-fashioned, but it turns out that that's not true. And so, it's really… it's a really interesting…

[Emma Gray]
No, no, no! I'd love to have her details. I think that's a treat I need to have.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah, yeah. Yes, and it's a whole day, kind of, you go and have lunch with her, and she likes candles, and she's very spiritual, and it's a really… it's a really beautiful…

[Emma Gray]
What? Oh, wow.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
experience, and it gives you very detailed, like, right, if I'm gonna go and do a presentation, What do I need to be in?

[Emma Gray]
I think I need more of that in my world, because you'll be fascinated by this. So, yes, I… so on Saturday night, I met someone that I really like, I knew I really liked him. We've done loads of talking and texting, and… as Olivia would say, we were in the talking stage.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yes, talking. I hear this from my boys, they're just talking, like…

[Emma Gray]
Yeah, um, but…

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
It's not me yet.

[Emma Gray]
Frickin' hate that stage, I hate uncertainty, I hate not knowing. It's one of the reasons I've been single for so bloody long. I just hate dating, I can't stand it.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah.

[Emma Gray]
Anyway, um, uh, so I knew I was seeing him on Saturday night, but I needed… I needed something in London, but not connected to my husband anymore, but also not…

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah.

[Emma Gray]
to him, just for me, and, um, freaking horse broke my finger, um, a bit last year, and it's… it's swollen on the side, so the rings that I normally wear on this finger… Um, won't fit, um, and the only other finger they can fit on is my ring finger. Um, and I've got this lovely birthday present my mum gave me, which was my granny's engagement ring. And then after my husband died for my 40th, he said I had to spoil myself. I paid a ridiculous amount of money to get, like, this semi-eternity ring, like, made so that it fits next to the other ring. And I always used to wear them on this finger, and obviously I can't because it's broken, and my mum was quite gutted, because she's like, oh, darling, you're not wearing the ring. I was like, I can't physically fit it on my finger, it's a fat finger now, the bone is actually swollen.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah.

[Emma Gray]
And so I put the two rings on my wedding ring finger, but knowing that it didn't mean I was taken, it just meant I was not available. Does that make sense?

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Emma Gray]
It gave me so much confidence, and I think to know that certain colours do certain things,

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah.

[Emma Gray]
That would really help me, because I'm quite woo like that.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah, yeah.

[Emma Gray]
We'd, like, really help me st… step into, and then consciously… I often think about the clothes I wear the night before, and so today I'm wearing cosy clothes, because I knew I'd be feeling a bit tired. But I consciously lay out the things I think will help me for the next day, so it would really help me.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and when you're shopping, what made me think of it is when you're shopping now, So, I've got… I've got my book.

[Emma Gray]
Oh, you've got a little book?

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah, so fortunately, black everyone sells black, so that's fine. This is a bit of a… more blue, because there's so many ranges of blue. Um, but it just makes shopping so easy, because I don't really think… I'm like, is it my color? Does it fit? Okay, good. I don't need to…

[Emma Gray]
Yeah.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
I don't… I'm not, like…

[Emma Gray]
It presumably means that everything in your wardrobe matches a bit better as well, so you can put things together a lot easier, because I find that quite often my wardrobe's a bit eclectic, and I don't like that.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I ended up checking out, I reckon, about 85% of my wardrobe.

[Emma Gray]
I need to do that. My wardrobe's ridiculous at the moment.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah, I love doing that. I think it's a real cleansing pro… well, what it was for me is a shift in identity. It's like, right, the past is gone.

[Emma Gray]
Yeah.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
And the future's coming.

[Emma Gray]
It can be a real grieving process, though, because I did do it, um, with this lady, and I guess she kind of did do colours with me.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah.

[Emma Gray]
Um, but she was, like, a fashion shopper lady, but she was a military spouse, and that's how I got to know her. And she came to my house a couple of years after my husband died. And, um, she did tell me, because there were quite a few things that I had which were very military-wife-y,

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah.

[Emma Gray]
And, like, some of them were really lovely, like a Hobbs suit and stuff like that, but I would never shop at Hobbs now. Um, and, um… Um, she said to me as she left, with all these bin bags ready for different, like, charity shop and out, and all the rest of it, and she said, um, you will be exhausted tonight, but you may also be really disturbed, because you're going to be grieving. I was like, I felt like I'd got rid of, like, married me, like…

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah, yeah.

[Emma Gray]
Like, it was massive!

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I was a huge pink girl. Like, my whole wardrobe was pink. But it turns out that there's only one shade of pink that I feel amazing in, that's a really deep fuchsia. All other shades of pink. It aggravated me. I'm like, this is really past.

[Emma Gray]
What?

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
like, it's… I was not comfortable in them at all. And so I've literally got rid of… I've only got one pink… Yeah, one pink top now in my wardrobe.

[Emma Gray]
That's amazing.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
And my whole wardrobe was pink.

[Emma Gray]
Wow.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah, it's interesting. It is. So, I will… I will share her details, because she's in Bath.

[Emma Gray]
Love that.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Um, yeah, but she's incredible when you're ready to do that.

[Emma Gray]
Yeah. Oh, I'm so excited to be, like, your friend!

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
So, anyway, so when, when… Yeah, let's do it! So when… When shall we meet at Clark's Village?

[Emma Gray]
Now, let me think… do you mind if I get the home calendar off the wall? Because it's easier for me to visually see when holidays are and shit like that.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Absolutely. Yeah, yeah.

[Emma Gray]
Um, otherwise, I found that I'm rearranging and stuff, and that's just…

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah.

[Emma Gray]
Um, so April is totally out, um, because of the holidays, and partly because my elder daughter's having the first of

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah.

[Emma Gray]
operation of a really major, shitty thing. Um, so…

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Where is she?

[Emma Gray]
Um, she's having jaw surgery in 18 months' time, and they're doing an operation on the 10th of April to take 8 teeth out.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Ooh…

[Emma Gray]
Which is a bit shitty. Um, so I'm kind of trying to keep April a bit free, so I can be… and I'm… I've got a care show at the end of April and all sorts, so I've got a bit to do. Um, I've then got Will Challenge in May, but the week after will challenge… I often need to plan nice stuff for me, so that I've got a recovery, and coming to see you.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Mm-hmm.

[Emma Gray]
Lovely thing to do. If you were around… on… Well, hmm… Bucker, that's really shit, because this… I'm Corset uni.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
The 20th, Friday the 22nd is completely clear for me at the moment.

[Emma Gray]
Is that… And then it's half-term after that, um…

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Oh, is it?

[Emma Gray]
So my half-term starts…

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Here, yes, it is.

[Emma Gray]
Friday 22nd in the evening. Um, fuck it, I'm not gonna do that. Um, let's… let's… why don't we say Friday the 22nd? That would be really lovely, because that'll be… Will Challenge will be over, and I'll be winding down to half-term, so that'll be really…

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Okay. Yeah.

[Emma Gray]
Lovely. So, if we meet at Clark's Vintage… meet Nikki. And… box. And what time do you reckon we'll…

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Um, I would probably…

[Emma Gray]
Well, I think the school and all the rest of it.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah, so I'll do the school run, I'll drop the boys off at, like, quarter past, half past 8. I probably… 9.30, 10 o'clock?

[Emma Gray]
Can we say 10.30? Just gives me a bit more time if I… I don't like doing things too early, in case Sophie has a… not sure I want to go to school day.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah. Absolutely, yeah.

[Emma Gray]
Try and keep that… I try and keep the mornings so that I can be mummy if I need to.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah, no, that's absolutely not a problem.

[Emma Gray]
16 now, and she is getting loads better, but I just…

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah. What's her, um, diagnosis?

[Emma Gray]
Oh, golly, so it's quite complex. Um, let me just put your surname in so I don't go, who's Nikki? Nikki?

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
Yeah, I know! Which member am I meeting in Clarks Village?

[Emma Gray]
Nikki Bevan safe.

[Nicky Bevan, The Working Womens Life Coach]
That's me!

[Emma Gray]
Um, right. Um, so, um… So her diagnosis, she has a PDA profile of autism, Um, which means that she goes into paralysis if you tell her what to do. And when I look back, on her life, I'm like, how did I miss this? Like, I look back on her life, and it's always been options. Like, everything has always been options. Like, we're going to go for a dog walk. I don't want to wear my socks and my wily boots. Well, you wear your wellie boots without socks, but I put the socks in my pocket, or you put the socks on now. And I've kind of done shit like that our whole lives, and sensually, she gets massively overwhelmed, and I look at her, and I'm just like, yeah, I think you get some of this from me. So I'm diagnosed ADHD, but when he diagnosed me, he was like, as well as whatever else is going on for you, and other diagnoses you might have, and, like, I was so overwhelmed by being told that I had diagnosis. I didn't kind of pick up on it, and then it echoed through my head. And now I'm like, fuck it, I don't need a diagnosis for anything else. But I look at her, and I'm like, yeah, that's me, that's me, that's me. And I actually think