You Can't Help People If You're Broke: Building A Profitable Practice With Dr. Meghan Walker

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You can be an incredible clinician and still have no idea how to run a business, and that’s exactly where so many new practitioners get stuck.

In this episode, we’re joined by Dr. Meghan Walker to talk about the part of healthcare education that rarely gets enough attention- how to actually build a practice that is sustainable, profitable, and impactful.

We get into the uncomfortable but necessary conversations around charging for care, pricing your services, building demand, creating a personal brand, and why “I just want to help people” cannot be your entire business strategy. We also talk about niching, social media, email lists, AI tools, burnout, and the systems that help practitioners take their time back without lowering the quality of care.

Whether you’re a student, new grad, clinician, or entrepreneur in the wellness space, this episode is your reminder that making money and helping people are not opposites and building a real business might be one of the most powerful ways to get your work into more people’s hands.

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DISCLAIMER: Nothing mentioned in this episode is medical advice and should not be taken as so. If you have any health concerns, please discuss these with your doctor or a licensed healthcare professional.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:06

If you're doing all the right things, eating clean, taking the supplements, following the skincare routine, and you're still breaking out, bloated, burnt out, or just feeling off, you are not the problem. The problem is that the wellness world wasn't built for real women with real bodies, real stress, and real questions that deserve better than vague advice and viral wellness trends.

SPEAKER_02 0:29

Welcome to Girls Gone Wellness, the No BS podcast cutting through the noise with science, sass, and zero shame. I'm Jeanette.

SPEAKER_01 0:36

And I'm Victoria, and we're naturopathic medical graduates who didn't just wake up one day and decide we were into wellness. We've spent the last decade learning the science, doing the clinical work, and graduating with the degrees.

SPEAKER_02 0:48

This isn't just another influencer podcast. We're not here to sell you a greens powder or to tell you to balance your hormones with seed cycling and good vibes. We're done with fear-mongering around food, detox teas, clean beauty BS, overpriced supplements that you don't need, and the biggest lie that you are the problem when it doesn't work. No, we're flipping the script.

SPEAKER_01 1:10

This is Girls Gone Wellness. Smart, sexy, science-backed, and built for women like you.

SPEAKER_02 1:57

So today we're joined by Dr. Megan Walker, former naturopathic doctor, entrepreneur, and someone who has helped so many clinicians think differently about business leadership and the future of practice. In this conversation, we talk about the shift from clinician to entrepreneur, why so many practitioners feel guilty charging for care, how undercharging can actually hurt the profession, what it actually means to build a personal brand, and why I just want to help people is so amazing, but sadly not a business plan. This is one of those episodes that feels like a loving reality check. If you've ever felt overwhelmed by the business side of healthcare, this one is for you. Enjoy the episode.

SPEAKER_01 2:35

Welcome to Girls Gone Wellness, Dr. Walker. I'm so happy to be here. We are so excited to have you on our podcast. You are such an icon in our field. And I know so many people have benefited from your work with clinicians. And our podcast has quite a vast audience. Everyone's a little bit different. We have lots of students, we have lots of new practitioners, seasoned practitioners. We also just have lots of entrepreneurial women, which is kind of cool. So I know that this is going to be a super important episode for everyone. For people who don't know you yet, tell us a little bit about your background because I'd love to know how you went from practicing naturopathic medicine to helping practitioners build and optimize their businesses.

SPEAKER_00 3:22

Yeah, I'm happy to share that. You know, I would say I was an entrepreneur before I became a naturopathic doctor. So I was, I was fired from my first and only job that I ever had in the summer. And my dad looked at me and he's like, I hope you don't think you're just gonna sit around and do nothing now that this mini career has come to an end. And I was like, listen, here's what I'm trying to figure out is how I can sit on the dock all summer and still have a job. And he's like, you can figure that out. Off you go. And so I looked at it, I looked at the lake and there was all these cottages out there and they were on islands. And I was like, I bet these people who work so hard to have these cottages, I bet they would love it if they came up on a Friday night and someone had cleaned them for them. And so I put little brochures in like a plastic sleeve with a rock on top on all of their docks. And within 10 days, I had a full roster of clients. And then the next summer, I hired 11 of my friends and they all came up. This is like I was living the dream. They all came up and they spent the summer with me at my cottage and I put them in my little tin boat and I drove them out to the cottages and I sat on the dock. And I realized in that moment, one, I was super smug with my dad about this little escapade. He's like, You deserve this. And number two, I was like, I will never ever uh work for anyone again. And it was kind of in that time I I had I had seen an naturopathic doctor when I was in high school, and I was just fascinated by the work. And uh he asked me a really important question in my career, which is tell me how your body has always and historically responded to stress. And I don't know what my answer was. And my answer was kind of irrelevant. And I was so struck in that moment that it was the most intelligent question any medical practitioner had asked me with respect to whatever was going on, and was like, I want to study this. Like, I wanna, I wanna study something where we take a complex system and we try to find out what is working and what's not working and how do we amplify it and all of these pieces. And this is really important because when I finished my career or my time in school, I had a really, I had a really clear vision that I wanted to open a clinic. And I was really great friends with um another naturopathic doctor, Dr. Aaron Wiley, and we had this vision for an integrative clinic, and and we opened that up and the trials and tribulations of those pieces. But what I realized is that running a business and having all of these different factors to play with is kind of the same as the body. It is a complex system. And what we're trying to do is understand multiple variables, and we're trying to look towards an outcome, and we're trying to understand what we need to do with the variables over here to maximize the outcome over there. And it was so intuitive to me that they're just both complex systems and it's all the same tenants that I didn't, I didn't question the ease of that. So I was like, well, I built a business before, and you know, we need to build margin and we need to, I knew all the things that needed to be true, and I'm like, we just need to make decisions so these things remain true. And our our business, it's not easy starting a naturopathic clinic. I want to be very clear. Some things worked, some things didn't, but we knew they would work. And we got to this point where we were sort of humming along. Um, and I reached a point at the juncture of my work where I went, I need I wanted, I want to do something a little bit different. I was really inspired by this core belief that when people have their health, they can change the world. And so I knew I would say yes to any opportunity to further the distribution of our system of medicine so more people could have it in their hands. And that was like a burning desire. And so I said to Aaron, I I love and adore you. And also I'm I'm going to sell you my half of the practice. I'm gonna keep working with patients, but only two days a week. I want to optimize that practice and I I want to start to work on something, I don't know what that is yet, um, to help our system of medicine get in the hands of more people. So, long story short, there's a whole bunch of different things that happened. But through that time, I had more and more colleagues who'd reach out and say, How did you not die starting your practice? How like how did you how did you find money to take home? And so it started as this is a very long answer, but it's kind of like it's it builds on one another. Um, I just started with a Zoom call every month. You could just come and just whatever question you had would all just kind of talk about it. And then it turned into a program, and then it turned into an event, and then it turned into a mastermind, and then it turned into another program, and it was an accidental business. This wasn't intentional. This wasn't like, oh, I'm gonna switch into coaching. Um, it just it just kept happening because it was a natural mechanism as we got stronger in practice, more people were able to reach and access our system of care. And so it satisfied that piece. It's really fun and challenging. And honestly, it's the same thing as naturopathic medicine. What's the root cause of what's going on? What do we need to tweak? How can we, how can we optimize the outcome on the other side? So it was just the natural evolution of um of my work in clinic.

SPEAKER_02 8:10

Wow, that's so amazing. I feel like a lot of people in naturopathic medicine have very opposite stories where they go through the program wanting to be a doctor and then they're like, oh, I actually have to be a business owner as well. But you kind of had the opposite kind of trajectory. Do you think that that helped you in the way that your business evolved? Like, was it just more natural for you to kind of go in that way?

SPEAKER_00 8:33

I think that I intentionally chose naturopathic medicine because it would enable me to be an entrepreneur in the health space. So I knew one thing for sure that I wanted, I wanted to be an entrepreneur. And then I discovered naturopathic medicine and it checked the box of, oh, I can still be an entrepreneur and have this massive impact. I contemplated medical school. Um, and I was like, I don't want to work for the government. Like that is, that is not congruent with my personality. It's not, it's not gonna fly. Um and philosophically, I like naturopathic medicine was was what I wanted to do. I I was I was and I have toyed with this idea that you know, naturopathic medicine was what I wanted to do at the time. But what I I think really the truth is, is like I'm very interested in complex systems. I'm interested in economics, I'm interested in our on our industry and how different pieces need to get optimized. So the body is like one iteration of that, but entrepreneurship and the evolution of what we're we're doing now, which is launching a SaaS platform and and a variety of different AI tools for the for the industry and for consumers, all of it is just it's the same principles. It's just wearing a different different coat.

SPEAKER_02 9:48

I know a lot of people that just graduated, me and Vic are going through this as well. You when you graduate school, you're like, wow, I'm gonna be a business owner, I'm gonna have to run my own practice. There's all of these different things that come with that. What is like the first thing that you think that new grads kind of see when they're gonna be a new business owner? Like, what are the first things that you think that they run into?

SPEAKER_00 10:10

Yeah, it's a really great question. And it's different from what do you think are some of the first things you should do in terms of preparing for that piece? So I think that some of the first things you encounter is this shocking realization that you have to do this for yourself. And you it is so easy to fall into the temptation of, I'll join a clinic and the clinic will send me uh patients. Our whole lives we have been trained to be students. And when we are students, the problems we need to solve are handed to us. We don't like run around the school looking for the assignment. We walk into the room, sit down, and it is given to us. And I think there's a lot of training that inherently happens in education that needs to immediately be undone in the arena of entrepreneurship. And it is tremendously uh unsettling and uh confronting because it is not how we have ever succeeded before. So, in an academic environment, you are rewarded for perfectionism and excellence in a manner that you are unawarded for in entrepreneurship. Entrepreneurship rewards speed, it rewards iteration, it is allergic to perfectionism, it uh it requires vulnerability, an understanding of numbers and things we haven't been taught. And so it is an entirely different skill set. So we can talk about some of the things we should do, but it's such a great question because I think that's probably exactly where people get confused and emotionally upset about it at first glance, is because every skill you have ever relied on to be successful in life up until this point, unless you've you've you've forayed in other things and came back to school, are not the skills that are going to take you in the next version of the game. And I think that's just the lens. It's just a new game. You're just playing, you get to play a new game. You finish this game and you should congratulate yourself and know that you're capable of amazing things and now understand that you are getting, you are in a new game. There are new rules and there's new ways to score points.

SPEAKER_01 12:12

Yeah, I like that mindset because I think the idea of a new game is terrifying for a lot of us. And I mean, speaking just from my own experience, I felt like, I mean, you do 10 plus years post-secondary, and you're in this system where everybody's telling you what you need to do on a daily basis, and you just follow the rules. You just go along with it, follow the tide, and then you finish. And now this new game is asking you to be the leader. And that's freaking hard when you have never done that before and no one has really taught you it. And how much can you learn by being taught by someone versus like sitting with them and going through the motions with them as you're building that business? And so I want to talk a little bit about like the hats that practitioners wear that maybe some of the students listening need to know as they're getting closer to graduation. Because I often wonder like, are there hats that I can actually like delegate to other people? Like, what hats do we need to wear as practitioners? And what can we kind of give to other people to help us with?

SPEAKER_00 15:01

Yeah, and and I'm gonna almost ask a question back. Are we talking about the hats we wear as the clinician or as are we talking about the hats we wear as the clinician entrepreneur? I just want to know if there's boundaries in clinician entrepreneur. Sure. So here's here's the reality is that I could talk all day long about we have to value our time and we should outsource these pieces and your time's not well spent, like in the nitty-gritty of Canva doing all of this stuff with respect to social media. But the ability to outsource these skills does not arrive until you've driven a bit of demand for what it is that you're selling. So not everyone's financial circumstances are the same. And a lot of people, this is the part that's hard, is they're like, whoa, whoa, whoa, I couldn't design something to save my life. And the good news is there are a million AI tools that even in the last six months have basically made you better at design than I have ever been in my entire life. But there is a rite of passage that will happen for you in your first four, six, twelve, eighteen months as you are getting going, where you have to fund the growth of your business. And you are a mini startup. And so you are going to be wearing one hat all day long and it's called the Jack of All Trades. And you're gonna say some days, this totally sucks because I'm a doctor and I just worked with that patient and I just changed their life. And now I'm back here and I'm scrubbing the toilet or I'm changing the light bulb or I'm designing the Canva template. This is not what I signed up for. And what I hear all the time, I literally put it in air quotes is Megan, I don't like this. I just want to help people. But the truth is for you to reach more people, we've got to create distribution of your brand and demand for what it is that you are selling. And you, I want to be really clear for all the grads listening, what you are not selling is naturopathic services. You are selling an outcome and you are utilizing and leveraging naturopathic philosophy and thinking to help achieve that outcome. But nobody knows what we know, and nobody knows as a health consumer how a naturopathic doctor is actually going to help them. And so we we're so in the bottle that we can't read the label. And so I see it all the time. I'm so excited to announce, and I know you guys just finished your stuff. I'm so excited to announce that I now have my license and I will be seeing naturopathic patients at X address. And I'm so excited for them because I understand how much work that is. And also that just goes like this over the heads of people who they could help, because we are assuming everyone understands the breadth and scope and complexity and nuance and brilliance of naturopathic medicine. And very few people do. And so when we under start to understand some of these things, once we start to like appreciate the nuance and the line between myself as the clinician and myself as the entrepreneur, at least now we can start to distinguish the fact that there's a collection of hats over here and a collection of hats over here. And we can start to be like, okay, as a clinician early on, I'm gonna be the strategist. I'm gonna, that's the person who's responsible for the outcome. I'm gonna play the role of coach because I'm probably not gonna hire a health coach out day one unless I've got like a trust fund or some other source of income over here, or a spouse who's like, here's half a million dollars, launch your practice. So I'm gonna be the strategist, I'm gonna be the coach, and I'm gonna be the technician. Those are the three hats you wear as a clinician. The technician is the person who does technical work. Put in the IVs, put in the acupuncture needles, whatever the case may be. And once you're a big deal and you've got lots of demand for you as a brand, you can hire a coach and you can hire a technician, and you can remain in the highest paid version of what we do as clinicians, which is be the strategist. The strategist is the top dog in terms of what you can earn. On the entrepreneurial side, when you get started, you're running your operations, you're running your marketing, and you are literally running around, like feet on the ground and going and going and meeting people and interacting with them and talking to them about the outcome that you deliver and who you love to work with and the power of naturopathic medicine. And you're you're you're getting as passionate about the work that you do as a clinician as you do at like the Thanksgiving table when you're with your family and you've got that uncle who's a little disgruntled about naturopathic medicine, you're like, no, it's amazing and it can do this and it can change people's lives. And you have so much passion. That's the energy you got to bring to the table. And here's the truth whether you like it or not, because the people who are succeeding are so in love and so passionate about the capacity of our system of medicine to change people's lives that they don't care that they put themselves in slightly vulnerable, challenging situations. And those are the people who don't have to do Canva very long and they don't have to pick up the phone and they don't have to be in comfortable situations because they drive demand so much faster. And demand is the very first milestone you need to hit. So if this was a game and it's way more fun if we think of it as a game, there's different levels. And the first level, you know you've completed the first level, and you've just suddenly opened up a whole bunch of new options and superpowers on your like game belt if you can have demand. It's the first piece. And so that's the part of the equation that you're solving for. And the faster you can drive demand to yourself, don't depend on the clinic. That's a bonus. Don't depend on high-paid ads and don't outsource it to a marketing company. Like, go and put your brand in front of people and care about sharing the power of naturopathic medicine. And you will drive you will drive demand to what it is that you that you do. That's the first milestone that you're aiming to get to. And that's when you get to be more selective about your hats.

SPEAKER_02 20:57

There are so many things that you said there, but as you were talking, I remembered something that I think it was Jordan Robertson. She said, like, no one cares about your banana muffin recipe that you put on Instagram. Like, people want to know something like that in paraphrasing. But she's like, people want to know like how your medicine can make them feel or like what problem you're solving and things like that. And I think that always stuck with me for some reason, um, just from like the marketing standpoint. But also when you were talking, it made me laugh a little bit because me and Vic are honestly running this whole thing sometimes. And I always talk to Vic and I'm like, I don't know why I'm doing all this editing. Like I can't wait till I can hire someone to do the editing and to do the Canva posts and to figure out Premiere Pro and YouTube and like all this stuff that like I'm barely even able to do. But yeah, it's funny how um when you graduate, you're like, there's so many people also that want to help you, right? There's someone that can do your YouTube, that can do your marketing, that can do ads, like you can hire someone for everything, right? And it's really tempting to want to do that. But yeah, I think what you said is is really important where it's like, oh, you gotta you gotta get some business first before you can hire everyone to do everything for you.

SPEAKER_00 22:05

But yeah, and then get rid of the thing that you either hate the most or more importantly, that you're really quite terrible at. Yeah. Those are the things to outsource uh first.

SPEAKER_01 22:16

Yeah. The bookkeeping for me.

SPEAKER_00 22:18

Yes. Oh, yeah. That's the first for everybody.

SPEAKER_01 22:21

Don't do that. That's actually just dangerous for me to be in charge of.

unknown 22:24

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:25

That you might outsource on day one. Um, okay. I want to talk about something that I know is super relevant for people listening, um, especially people who I and Jeanette and I just recently graduated with who are in practice and I keep seeing it coming up with I don't know what to charge for my services. It's almost like this guilt around charging for care that we have. And, you know, the reality is we choose to be doctors and healthcare practitioners because we want to help people, right? And we often hear people say things like, I would do this job even if I didn't get paid. Like this is like my dream, right? Um, or what's the other one? It's if you if you pick a job you love, you don't ever work a day in your life, like all those beautiful sayings. But at the end of the day, it is a job, and we do have to make money, and we do spend a lot of money and invest a lot of money into our careers. What are some of those kind of early warning signs that someone is running their practice more as a hobby than as a business? And how do we kind of start that conversation?

SPEAKER_00 23:29

Yeah, it's this is such an this is such an important conversation, and there's there's so many places that we can uh that we can go. I wanna I want to acknowledge that like everyone is here. We all put our heads down and worked really hard for four years and four years before that because we believe in this system of medicine to transform people's lives and no one sticks around this long unless they want to help people. There are way better things to do if you are just looking to make a lot of money. So I think it's really important to understand and have that foundational component. I also want to acknowledge that if our practices collectively are not financially viable, that will be the end of this profession. People just won't tolerate coming into a profession where they know they will never pay off their student loans. They won't tolerate going into a profession that they know if they ever had to leave their partner, they would lack the financial means and independence to do it. They would not go into naturopathic medicine if they were a single mom, because they know they wouldn't be able to feed their kids or afford optionality down the road. So I feel really strongly about this because I believe that the sustainability of the profession is on the line. And I believe this is a collective leadership issue. One of the biggest challenges we see at a macro level is that people don't understand the cost of care deployment. And it is very inconvenient to all of us who really care about people that our medicine is ridiculously expensive to deploy. This is a luxury item. So we want to help people, but we are also trained in a luxury item that requires disposable income to be able to access. And then the problem is, and this is often a mindset and mechanics issue, and these are just these are just facts. So this isn't like me trying to like project, this is just the it's just the reality, right? The problem becomes when people are wanting to help individuals by incessantly lowering their cost of care without acknowledging what it costs to deploy. So their practice is rendered unsustainable in the in the very least. And the least amount of damage would be that that just affects them. The challenge is when people chronically undercharge for what it is that they do, is it actually affects the whole ecosystem. It's really hard for anyone to charge appropriately. So some of the systemic things that we see within the profession are issues with larger clinics just not being able to afford to run or ever reach that economy of scale, because no one actually understands what it truly costs to deploy our system of care. So most clinics in our industry operate with a 5% to 8% profit margin. That is very small, rivaled only by restaurants, which is also a terrible business model to go into. And so for a clinic to really survive, what they charge and how they charge absolutely matters. And so we need to run those numbers. So if we've got people over here who are like, I'm just gonna charge like 120 for an intake and $95 for a follow-up, we are charging less than what the cost of care looks like. Because the cost of care isn't just how you value your time. Your cost of care is how we repay those loans. Your cost of care is your registration and your regulation and your continuing education. And most importantly, it is tied to the outcomes you deliver and the risk you carry. And when your whole income is predicated on selling your time, which is a finite resource, and you are regulated by a regulator over here who's incredibly inflexible around a variety of things and holds your economic future in their hands, it's the truth of the matter, that drives the cost of care even higher. And so, one, we just we need to have a realistic conversation around what it costs to deploy care. And number two, we have to acknowledge that the average naturopathic visit and follow-up and delivery of an outcome is expensive. And we we need to make that available to people who can afford to pay us first and foremost, because that renders our practice sustainable. This does not mean this conversation. Some people are like already piece out on this, but here's here's the silver lining on it is that if you want to help more people, it is not a matter of just lowering your prices because that renders it unsustainable for everybody. If you want to help more people, you have to innovate your offer. So this thing that we do where we just keep our fees low so that we can reach more people, I'm gonna say this with so much love, but I think we need to just have the truth. It's it's entrepreneurially lazy. It is like, oh, let's just make our fees lower and then it's easier for people to act. That's just not how economics works. You can't charge less than what it costs to deliver that care without collapsing the system. That just it just never works. In fact, if this was retail, it's actually illegal to do that. So it's not, it's a service. So people, we don't value our time. We we charge too little, the whole system starts to collapse. We want to reach more people, we innovate our offer. We deliver things through uh we deliver them through technology. There are apps now that cost less than $10 a month where people can gain the same type of information that I was giving in practice five years ago. They are getting as quality a care as I delivered for thousands of dollars on an app that's less than $5 a month. So if we really are like, I want to help more people, just just pay for people to be able to use one of these apps or give them a series of Claude or GPT prompts that will infinitely start to transform their life, build a platform online that makes these systems of care or the deployment of group programs maximally accessible. And then when I start to do that, everyone, they're all freaking out because they're like, how do I make any money? And I'm like, this is the whole point. So this is why we cannot afford to be lazy in how we reach people. We have to be innovative in how we reach people. There are tools that enable us to deploy our systems of care for like cents on the dollar, but one-on-one care with either of you on your very first day of practice, that's it just is expensive, it is expensive. And so if we acknowledge those pieces, you can you can have a thriving practice. You can afford to put more money into the ecosystem to reach more people. One of the things one of our clinics does is the same argument. Megan, we can't adjust our rates because we we reach all these people and they have really serious things going on. Like people are dealing with cancer, they're dealing with autoimmune conditions. I totally get that. So, what did we turn around and do? We made sure they charged appropriately for their core program to their core audience, and people want to pay for it. They're putting up their hands to pay for it. And then what they do is by application, they run a pro bono clinic four times a month. They charge more for what it is that they do. And if you can't afford to come in, you can come to our pro bono clinic. Guess what? They're seeing 10 times the volume of people coming through their clinic accessing naturopathic medicine, and they're 10xing their revenues. So this is a complex problem, and rarely can we solve complex problems with simple solutions. So you asked right at the beginning, what's the red flag? The red flag is when you're trying to solve a complex problem with a simple solution. So lots of solutions, lots of ways that we can we can lead, but we we need to acknowledge and deal with that emotional tension that gets created. And I understand it and it's so real. And I was, I was so bad at this. I had bad boundaries. I had to like really lay down the law with myself, but we have to resolve that emotional tension and have the maturity to understand what our Madison costs, and we have to charge appropriately so we can afford to innovate.

SPEAKER_02 31:35

I love that. I know, like even in school, like we barely even had this conversation. I think we had like a semester, one semester of like a business course and maybe one lecture on like how much we should charge for our rates and things like that. So like it's it's not really talked about and there's not really like a room for discussion. So I'm really glad glad that you touched on that. And I know even me and Vic as a new grad, we've talked about this before, but there's this whole thing as new grads that like you should be charging less because you don't have as much experience as someone who, you know, may have been in the field for a while as well. So like that adds a whole other layer onto it where it's like, oh, like I don't have the experience, so I shouldn't be charging more, but like I have all the student debt I need to get started in my life and all these things too. So there's so many layers to it, but I I really like it.

SPEAKER_00 32:20

Can we talk about that for one second? Yes, that's a really good next step. So when there's a few ways that your price signals the market, and the only time it really signals the market is if you price high and premium, it signals that this is a premium offer. So on day one, we made a very strategic decision in our clinic that we were going to price premium from the second we graduated from school. One, we owned the clinic and ran the numbers and knew how much we needed to bring in. And number two, we placed the clinic right in a premium market in downtown Toronto. So our overhead and rent and all of the things were higher, but we wanted a premium clientele who would look at two different clinics and not go, give me the cheapest. They'd look at two different clinics, they'd look at our pricing, and they'd say, I want the best. And one of the things that signals the best, right or wrong, is pricing. So it is a it is a marketing tool as much as anything else from the get-go. And it's a decision you get to make at the beginning. You might consciously say, I'm going to price premium in the market, and I'm going to actively innovate around how I reach more people. That is a super intentional, smart way to look at this. You get to increase your fees from there when you hit the milestone of demand. So I know practitioners who've been in practice for 20 years and they can't attract enough patients. And they don't get to increase their fees unless one, they want a price premium. They don't get to increase their fees until they have demand. If you're, if you're out of school for 18 months and you're wearing all the hats, but you're also driving demand, you get to increase your fees as often as you want. It's not like once a year, I can only do it once a year. No, more demand, increase your fees. That's the law of economics. So it's not about how long you're in the field. It's about the intentionality of your brand and what you're doing. The one thing I do want to caution because some people are like, okay, well, I want to reach lots of people. I'm going to go really low, but I'm going to have like five, five-minute appointments. The challenge with that thinking, and that's an extreme example, the challenge with that thinking, and when we go too low, so anyone sitting at the bottom of the market in terms of price, is you're turning your offering into a commodity. A commodity in general in economics is any entity that gets sold where its core value is how cheap can I make it? So Walmart sells commodities. Their whole goal is like, I'm going to negotiate and bleed some of these companies to death just because they want the exposure, but we sell commodities. Our value proposition is we make them as cheap as possible. So when you when you sell a premium service, a naturopathic medicine is a premium service, whether we want to admit it or not, and then you try to commoditize it, it's very confusing to the marketplace. It's like saying I have a luxury car and it's only going to cost you $100 a month. You're like, there is a catch there. So it almost anti-markets our services. So one of the biggest challenges is exactly this disconnect between uh time in time in the market and time of practice versus demand. It's it's demand that lets you elevate it more. And pricing premium is one of the most intentional things you can do to attract the right people from day one.

SPEAKER_02 35:28

Absolutely. I love that answer. I'm really glad that we touched on that. Um, you touched briefly on some metrics and things like that. What general, like in general, what numbers and metrics should practitioners actually be tracking in their business that most people ignore or like maybe just the most important ones that you think are worth tracking?

SPEAKER_00 35:47

Yeah, there's a few different areas in your business, right? So we have a framework called the intelligent practice and we focus on a few things. So we're looking at your offering, we're looking at your marketing, we're looking at operations. And so when we when we're tracking numbers related to that, there's two sort of core areas, there's two sides of that triangle we want to understand. We want to understand some marketing metrics because we want to understand a few things. How many people are getting eyeballs on our brand every month? How effective are we at converting people and pulling them into our ecosystem? Depending on what your marketing system is, you're gonna have different metrics that you're that you're looking at. But like how many people are we catching in our net and how many people are staying with us, and versus like how many fish escape. Any numbers that start to give you that picture are gonna be really important because they inform what actions you can you can start to take. When it comes to looking at numbers, we just like blood work, we can get really, really nuanced and get really good at. So the more you're in there, you're like, oh, this went up and that went down, and that means this. You don't need to do that on day one. On day one, we're like, am I anemic or am I okay? Right? Like, do I have revenue and is my revenue more than my expenses? And if it's not, and it won't be on day one, how quickly is that trend showcasing that I will become profitable or if not profitable, break even? And on what timeline? Those are pieces that we need to understand inside our business. Back to the bookkeeping piece. Like a bookkeeper will be really good at helping you to understand those numbers. A few rules for people, like right up front, it's like one, track your marketing, track your marketing metrics, have a marketing plan. But as it pertains to um the money piece, like having having a bookkeeper who can run those numbers for you makes a really big difference on day one. Have a bank account for your business that is not your personal bank account. Like, even if you're you're, you know, you have your bookkeeper or your accountants, like you're not making enough money, just throw it all into one pot. Again, there's just there's an intentionality to being like, I'm I'm going pro here. And I might not hit the, I might not hit the threshold this year, but my I am not blending my personal finances and my business finances. And I do not intend to be in a place by the end of this year where whatever the IRS or the CRA care, like go pro on day one, separate those pieces out and understand that those, even those basic financial metrics really matter to the health of your clinic. The finances are a resource that fuel your ability to reach more people. I think we need to, we need to shift our relationship with the money piece. It is, it's a tool of distribution. If we are all constantly in scarcity, we are not as good at what we do clinically, because it is an all-consuming physiological pressure. And we can't put our medicine in more people's hands. We just, we, we just can't afford to as an industry or as or as individuals. So this is what fuels distribution of our systems of care. It is how we reach more people. So if that's a core thing you want to do, cutting off that, cutting off that supply is like, it's like we're shooting our own foot. So I feel really strongly about this because it's a game changer for people in their practices once they start to see this. And when you are not caught in scarcity, you are in a mindset of innovation and creativity with your business. You change your relationship with your business, you start to see it as a tool again to reach more people, which you spiral up on all of these, on all of these levels. So I'm so glad we're talking about it because it it is such a barrier to us operating up here because we're so caught managing uh the logistics of the numbers on the ground level.

SPEAKER_01 39:40

I love that. I'm so inspired right now.

SPEAKER_00 39:44

I haven't for money and operations. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:48

But I feel like when we left school, it was it's all about the scarcity mindset at first. And that's kind of ingrained into us too. You know, like we had these conversations in clinic about like, you can't charge that much, you can't do that. And it does it kind of you leave school and you're like, what am I gonna do with my life? It's terrifying, right? Can I just say one thing on the switchpiece?

SPEAKER_00 40:11

And I don't mean to interrupt. No, when you're a student, you can't afford to go see an atropathic doctor. Like, if you drop $20,000 on your on your schooling for this one year, that's not a that's not a good life choice for you to go be purchasing a luxury item. But your ideal client is not a student who has been in school and living off loans for 28 years. That is not who you should be going after. You should be going after five, 45-year-old women who make a million dollars a year, have benefits, and are like, I am more than happy to pay you $5,000 to make me look younger. Like, where do I sign up? So there are so many people with the with the capital and the money to invest in you. You can't look, you're inside the bottle again as a student. You can't think that is expensive. Of course it's expensive. That's a bad $5,000 is a bad choice for you. Don't be buying $5,000 anything. Go talk to your mom's friends and ask them what they want to spend to make themselves look younger and to live longer and to feel amazing, and they'll tell you what they're willing to invest.

SPEAKER_01 41:18

Yeah, I love that. That's so good. We got to get out of the bottle. We're very much stuck in the bottle.

SPEAKER_02 41:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:24

Um we have to talk about marketing because I think that that's a huge area. Um, and I think when we think of marketing, we think of social media. Um, you talked a little bit about how marketing is also just like even how you price yourself and all of those things are how you market yourself. So I want to touch on that piece. How can we really market ourselves in our career?

SPEAKER_00 41:51

Big uh that's a big question. It is. Um here's here's where I'd start. And you can start this as a student is the very first thing I'd focus on is establishing your personal brand. In the age and era of of AI and AR search tools, you need to be visible online. So we have a platform uh called Health Hives. It's totally free to create a profile. And we have 25,000 active practitioner profiles on health hives from practitioners across North America. We we built those 25,000 profiles after combing through. Obviously, in our AI system, I'm like, I don't want to lead anyone astray that I did this personally, but we have all the data. We combed through 485,000 online profiles of practitioners. Endees, naturopathic doctors, chiropractors, like full gamut. And 25,000 met our minimum threshold of quality to be able to put on the platform. That meant that they had a Google profile. That meant that their website wasn't 25 years old. That meant that their you can LLMs will look at your branding and be like, that's crappy. I am not showing that to that user. So it's not just like, did I use all the keywords 20 years ago when I wrote my blog post and I hired my aunt's friend who lives in a basement? It's like way more sophisticated than that. And so a personal brand, we we talk about it in three core areas. One, it immediately denotes authority. And in a in an era where someone can go do a weekend course and throw up a really pretty website, your credentials matter because they substantiate your authority, but you have to hold space for that. So your credentials matter because they give you scope of practice, they give you legal protection, they afford your clients the ability to leverage insurance. Your credentials do diddly squat for your marketing. And this is an important piece to talk about because a lot of people finish, they're like, I just want to help people and I'm not gonna market because oh my gosh, I just dropped $100,000 and I'm a doctor now, and I shouldn't have to. And I agree with you, you should not have to. That feels super unfortunate. But the truth is, you must. And so, if you must, you must understand that this version of the game requires and that there are table stakes. And table stakes to play in this version of the game means you have a personal brand, you're findable online, that your branding and your colors and your fonts are kind of the same. And so before you go and you're trying to, you know, post your banana bread, gluten-free banana bread with protein recipe on Instagram, make sure you have a website that is your name. Make sure that you are findable. Make sure that your colors and the flow of your website, which is so inexpensive to create, is searchable. And in the very least, go claim your profile. I don't, I'm not promoting it. There's like, well, I am promoting it. Go claim your profile on health hives because it's gonna be more powerful from an SEO perspective than anything else. But own your personal brand. And when you we say own your personal brand, there's sort of three core areas that are really beneficial to know. One, it's just clarity on who you help and who you serve and how you can help them. Not I'm an atropathic doctor, I'll change your life, because they'll immediately go, I have I don't know what that means and I don't know how. And if I don't know what it means and I don't know how, I'm gonna go ask somebody else for help. So clarity on who you help and how you can help them and don't tie it to your credentials. That's like the sprinkles on top. The next piece that we need to understand is how does that brand show up in the world? So that's its presence visually. How does it show up? If you want high end clients and then you haven't updated your website since 1987, you know, you two like weren't even born then. But there are people who did that. You look at their website, you're like, I'm pretty sure I'm pretty sure like. It hasn't been touched. It's an anti-marketing tool for you. So how you show up visually actually matters. It is an area of ongoing reinvestment. And then the next decision is where do I show up so that I'm catching the maximum number of people in the net? And then what's my strategy to bring them into my world? So it's a bonus if you're in a clinic that becomes an additional stream of people towards your personal brand. You need a personal brand. And when we talk about social media, and just jump in because I can talk about this all day long. When we talk about social media, everyone's like, oh my gosh, all my time is on social media. Here's the thing that's important to understand is that we've got social media. We need to convert them off of social media. And then we need to have a conversation. The conversation happens in email. All this time gets spent on social media. I want everyone to understand its purpose is not to necessarily convert patients. Five to seven percent of your patients at most will come directly from social. Five to seven percent. That's really low. In many cases, we see it as low as like three to four. What's the point of social media? It's not to bring patients directly in your door, it's to bring people into your ecosystem. So marketing is always about the next step. A single marketing effort will not move people from step one to step 10. A marketing effort is to move people to the next step. So if I was leveraging social media, the question for me every day is how do I get people off of social media and into something where I get to shrink my sales cycle? So that might be that might be like a custom GPT that you have built. That might be a live webinar. It might be a live talk. It might be an evergreen webinar. It might be a boot camp that you run. It doesn't matter what it is. It's a it's an intense, a more intense opportunity for you to have a conversation with people and showcase how your credentials can help them. It could be as simple as like a PDF if you wanted to. The more you show your face, the faster that sales cycle is going to, it's going to shrink. We move people then and we and expect in that room, 10 to 12% of people will put their hand up and be like, I am ready for this. This is amazing. Most people won't. Most people will go and they'll sit on your mailing list. And here's the biggest mistake we make is we don't email people because we don't want to be annoying. Or even better, I don't email people because I don't want them to unsubscribe. Well, it's not an asset for you if they just sit on a list in MailChimp's headquarters somewhere. It's an asset for you if you can convert them off the list into your clinic. 60 to 70% of your patients will come from your mailing list. It's a one-two punch. You can get people right off of social onto your mailing list. Great. They need to listen to you. They need to understand your perspective. They need want to accelerate it. They need to see your face. They need to hear your voice. They need to hear you talk about, oh my gosh, I had a really fascinating conversation in clinic today. This woman came in and she's so busy. She's got all these things going on, but we made three changes, and this is the outcome we were able to deliver to her. People hear that two or three times. They're like, I want that outcome too. I'm just as busy as she is. I can do that if she can do that. So it's emotionally connecting to people. That's that's all marketing is. There's, and there's that might not be your route. I got three different ads from three different online health and wellness business coaches this morning, all telling me that the way the previous ad suggested you do it is wrong. If we look at a complex system and we understand how humans work, there's a million tactics you could use. Some people want you to use YouTube, some people say Instagram. I'd say for everybody here, TikTok's probably not going to be your best choice for a premium market, but I could be wrong on that, right? So you're going to hear a million tactics. Understand the strategy here. Establish rapport, give them value, and nurture them. This is a trust-based relationship. They're going to trust your personal brand. Really cool study came out three years ago. They surveyed 10,000 Americans. What they found was 74% of the people who were surveyed said that when I'm working with a professional that I need to trust, lawyer, doctor, accountant, I trust them more when they have a strong personal brand. So if you do nothing else, grab your name as your URL, have a super inexpensive but very clean, fresh website, create content so that you are findable online and start there. And that you could get that done in one day. And it will compound for you over and over again. And then the more you do, the easier it will be to grow. But you you if you're not findable, you're you're you're not gonna drive demand. It's it's just it's um it's table stakes.

SPEAKER_02 50:31

I love it. So many things there. I don't know if you're familiar with the book Building a Story Brand. Yeah, I recently bought that. Yeah, Vic, you too? Have you seen it?

SPEAKER_01 50:40

I'm not. You haven't.

SPEAKER_02 50:41

Okay, I'll give it to you. I bought it a couple months ago, and it's been like a game changer going through it and seeing how it's marketing. Basically, it's like uh the client or your patient or whatever is the hero in the story, and you're the guide. But I think a lot of the times it's the opposite that we think it should be. Like, we're the hero, we're the doctor, we have all the credentials, and like, but it should be the opposite. And I think that that was really, really eye-opening to me when it came to marketing. And they have lots of good tips in there.

SPEAKER_00 51:09

It's a great, it's a great book, and it's a great book to like really understand, uh, to really understand your brand.

SPEAKER_02 51:15

A question that I think a lot of people in clinic had um for my supervisors and things like that is that, you know, is it should we niche down when we graduate? Should we do a general practice? Do you like feel strongly about either one of those? Do you think like when you create a personal brand, you really need to know like your audience, what you help, all of those things? Or do you think that you can build like a general practice when you first graduate?

SPEAKER_00 51:41

I think it depends what we mean by general practice. So if by general practice we mean I'm gonna have a website where I list the 800 conditions I could possibly encounter and I'm gonna say I can treat all of them, I'm gonna venture to say that that is going to create zero conversions for you. Because when people are looking to hire someone to support them in their health, they are looking for the best possible person. If we had a family member who was diagnosed with something catastrophic, we all have a sufficient network of individuals that we would immediately be like, that's the person you go see. Because we don't want just anybody who could possibly treat it. We want the best person to treat it. And when we communicate that we can treat everything, I understand how that's true because I spent eight years in school and 16 years in practice to understand how that's true. The average person doesn't get it. So if you want to have a general practice, general practice work really well, but you need a target audience. So I don't call it niching, I call it an arena of authority. So I had a very general practice. I treated a ton of stuff, except for the things I didn't. I didn't want to do orthopedics, I didn't treat cancer, I referred out for those things. But I worked with entrepreneurs and my promise to them was I will have your brain and body available to you at a moment's notice. I practiced performance medicine. I got them feeling amazing. But when they walked through the door, some of them had Crohn's, some of them were dealing with autoimmune conditions, variety of diagnoses, commonality in terms of the individual that I was working with. So you can have a general practice, but you're gonna need a targeted audience. Same thing if we're gonna go after a specific condition, that becomes our target audience, people suffering from. So as long as you have a target where the generality of the practice makes sense, you can absolutely do it. But the danger piece is when we step out going, I can, I can treat everything. The only exception to that is like if you're delivering primary care in like a rule setting, it affords you the opportunity to do more things. But what we're even seeing more and more there is that individuals, individuals are saying it's very hard for me to have this general practice here. It's very taxing to do. It's a great way up front, but it's taxing long term. And so they're splitting their time. They're saying, okay, a day and a half a week, I'll run my primary care practice and I will limit the supply of that time. And I will run 10 or 15 minute appointments. And over here, I'll do my like my women's health, my deeper dives, my like prescription of hormones. I have longer appointments, they cost more money. They're a different type of care. So again, with intentionality, we can get super creative around these pieces.

SPEAKER_01 54:28

Mm-hmm. Okay, I'm glad we touched on that because I go back and forth with that. I like started my my whole passion with naturopathic medicine came from just my interest in my own thyroid condition. And so I was so certain this whole time, even before I started the program, like I will only work with thyroid patients. And I went back and forth all through the four years of CCMM where I was like, is this a bad model? Like, should I be, am I, you know, like kind of taking a whole bunch of people out of my kind of platform here? Um, so I'm glad that we touched on that. That makes me feel better. Um, I do want to ask you in terms of, I don't want to use the word burnout yet, but when we talk about our career as naturopathic doctors, there's this idea, it's like, there's this freedom that comes with it. There's, you know, you get to make your own schedule and you don't need to do the nine to five, and that all sounds lovely, but we end up doing the 24-hour days. Like this is, it's constant, right? And I think people forget that yes, we see patients in that like hour visit, but then a lot of us are charting and prepping and planning and spending hours and hours on one patient throughout the day. There are there any systems that we have in place to support practitioners who want to take their time back?

SPEAKER_00 55:49

Yeah, I mean, there are a ton of tools. So I'm pretty sure that I would have stayed in practice longer if I had known about Heidi and having like an AI tool do my charting for me because there's still people who are like, if I don't chart myself, like it's less valuable. No, no, 100% not. That's not where your value comes from, right? So there's a ton of AI tools that can simplify repeatable tasks. There are also systems of thinking that we can install in our businesses that create uh significant scalability and reduce friction. One of the systems that we focus on, and we certainly teach, is this idea of building out a signature care system. That means authoring a methodology, an approach to care. So in my own practice, we had the anthropology method. You moved through three phases of care. I was really clear on the eligibility criteria for people to come into that. I'm gonna call it a program, but I'll give it a caveat in a second, into that program. Um, and by doing that, I could have a variety of people coming in and different starting points. I already shared that that was part of my practice. But honestly, if I'm gonna get everyone to a common outcome, we're gonna go through the same phases. We're gonna focus on gut issue, then we're gonna focus on uh regulating your metabolic health and uh your hormonal health in terms of sex hormones. Like let's get those pieces on track. And then we're gonna start to focus on the nervous system and mitochondrial health. And there's kind of a sequence in order to those things. And it made it made it so that you know we had common outcomes and I could have common handouts and videos, and I would pull from similar resources in terms of lab testing. It meant that I really had subject matter expertise around each of these particular pillars. I was super efficient as a clinician, variety of things, but I had a I had a systematic process. And by having a signature care system, now what I also had was I had the language and the process to inform all of my marketing conversations. Once I had a signature care system, here's here's the thing that brings this whole conversation together. When I have a methodology, what I'm doing is I'm communicating that I'm gonna help you get to an outcome. I'm your guide, you're the hero, here's the outcome, brain and body. I'm not promising the outcome. I want to be really clear because everyone's like, you can't promise an outcome. I know it's just as valuable for me clinically to move someone through my system and say, listen, you got close to that outcome, but you're still far enough away that this is clinically valuable to me. There's something else going on. So aiming for the flag at least gives us a place to try to aim towards. It gives us a rallying point. So just as valuable to not hit it as hit it, but it has a place that at least we're all trying to get to. So when I have this signature care system, a few things happen, but the most important is that I have transitioned from selling my service to selling my strategy. And when you sell your strategy instead of your service, your service gets bundled up as time. Your strategy gets sold as exactly that strategy. So they might have both been 30-minute appointments, but when it's part of a broader system we're moving people through, it's worth about 30% more in the marketplace. When you have a system of care and we're not selling our services, it also means that we go from on average having 4.2 touch points with our patients before they're like, I can't figure out why I have to keep coming back to over 12. To over 12. We're charging 30% more and they're sticking around three times longer. Do you know what that does to both the patient outcomes, most importantly, and the bottom line in your business? The profitability in your business comes from retention, cash flow comes from new patients coming in. When we see patients for 4.2 visits on average, what happens is we are endlessly utilizing our cash flow to help afford to get new people through the door, and we're doing this. And that to me is not freedom. So freedom comes from having a system with a predictable through line of patients that allows for efficient use of our time, very distinct ability to communicate what it is that we are selling, which is not my time. That's not freedom to me. And the cool thing about this, like next level, long term, not where you're gonna be when you first walk out of school. When I develop a system of care and I create demand for my system of care and my schedule is full, I can teach my associates that system of care. I can open a group program that deploys that system of care. I can create an online version of that system of care if I really wanted to, and you could probably do this now very inexpensively. I can create a $5 app that deploys that system of care so I can reach more people who can't afford to purchase my very expensive service. So one, I like we've come like full circle on this. But two, there's when we look at our practice strategically, we don't, it's not this big emotional response all the time. Walking through the door with intentionality on day one means we're building with this ongoing upward trajectory. It means we have capital to be able to reach more people. That is the freedom, the freedom to help as many people as you want, the freedom to set your schedule, the freedom to say, I don't do Fridays, because it doesn't matter. I can still cover my overhead, I can still reinvest in where I want to go. So freedom is possible for everyone, but it's going to be easier to access if you if you create intention around how you run your business.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:29

I love that. So good. If you could give like one piece of advice to someone who's just opening their practice or something that you wish you would have known before you opened your first practice, what would it be?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:44

Uh gosh, it's such a good question. You are on a marathon. This is not, it's not a sprint. And we could talk marketing, we could talk fees, we could talk all of these things, but when when you run a really long marathon and you don't know how long it's gonna be, you you kind of have to you have to expect and be okay with. There's gonna be seasonalities to that run. There's gonna be times where it feels easy, and there's gonna be times where for no good reason you feel like you are you are running uphill, you're gonna feel sometimes like you're you're dodging through people and it's totally inefficient, and you're you're gonna have blisters and be in pain, regardless of how well, how well you trained. And for people who choose to run marathons, I think, because I'm not one of those people, like it's fun. Like they they make that they make that choice. They know that walking in, they're like, this is gonna be a life-changing challenge. And when I run that marathon, no one can ever take that, uh, take that away from me. A huge part of entrepreneurship, this is irrelevant to naturopathic medicine. A huge part of entrepreneurship is managing expectations and knowing it's not gonna be easy every day. If you want easy every day, you should go work at McDonald's. It's predictable, you know what your income's gonna be. But we don't choose that. That's not for people who want growth. We're like a little bit of unpredictable is okay. You're gonna get challenged on every single level as an entrepreneur, and you also happen to be a clinician. So you've got incredible tools to take care of yourself uh in the process. But um I just like buckle up and enjoy the run.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:21

Buckle up is the perfect way.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:25

Buckle up and enjoy the run. We could do that too, but like no, just buckle up, go have fun. Go have fun.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:30

I love it. I feel like this is like a full circle way to end this episode, too, is you have this sign behind you that says, what if it all works out? And at the very beginning, before we hit record, it was almost like serendipitous that it worked that way because Jeanette and I have been saying that to ourselves constantly. And it's kind of refreshing to hear that like we're feeling this way now, and we're gonna continue to remind ourselves of that throughout this entire career. And that's actually a beautiful thing. So I think that that is just such a wonderful way to end us off. And uh before we before we head out, this is your opportunity to shout yourself out. Tell us a little bit more about the health hive, what you do, where people can find you, all of the stuff.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:16

Yeah, for sure. I think the easiest place to just kind of see um what I'm up to in any given moment is Instagram. And my handle for that is just Dr. Megan Walker. Um, and if you and if you want to just like get started with an easy online presence, it costs you nothing, um, head over to healthhives.com and uh claim your profile.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:36

Amazing. We will put that in the show notes, and Jeanette and I will be signing up for that A-SAP. So thank you so much, Dr. Walker.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:44

Such a pleasure.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:51

Thanks for listening to Girls Gone Wellness. If this episode made you feel seen, smarter, or just a little less alone on your wellness journey, send it to a friend or tag us on Instagram at Girls Gone Wellness Podcast.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:03

Before you go, take a second to leave us a review. It helps more than you know, and it helps more women like you find their way to wellness that actually works. Want more? Head to Girls Gone Wellness Podcast.com to be the first to know about new episodes, exclusive merch drops, and everything we're building behind the scenes. Because feeling good in your body shouldn't feel like a full-time job. It should feel grounded, confident, and maybe even a little sexy too.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:28

We'll see you next week. Until then, trust your body, question the noise, and don't let anyone tell you you need fixing. This is wellness on your turn.