Are You Insulin Resistant? The Signs, Tests & Hacks That Actually Work With Dr. Adrian Chavez, PhD

Blood sugar is everywhere right now. Glucose spikes, continuous glucose monitors, apple cider vinegar before meals, walking after meals, berberine, cutting carbs… but how much of this actually matters?

In this episode, we’re joined by Dr. Adrian Chavez, who has a PhD focused on insulin resistance and metabolic health, to break down what you actually need to know about blood sugar.

We talk about what insulin resistance really is, why it can develop years before diabetes, whether fasting insulin and HOMA-IR are worth testing, what a normal blood sugar response after eating should look like, and whether healthy people actually need to worry about glucose spikes.

We also get into CGMs, berberine, apple cider vinegar, post-meal walks, calorie intake, body fat, strength training, cardio, fibre, protein, and the lifestyle changes that actually make the biggest difference for metabolic health.

Plus, we zoom out into a much bigger conversation about the wellness industry, health optimization, and why so many people are spending enormous amounts of time and money worrying about tiny details while overlooking the habits that have the strongest evidence behind them.

If you’ve ever wondered whether you’re insulin resistant, what blood work actually matters, or what you should be doing to protect your metabolic health long term, this episode will give you a much clearer place to start.

In this episode, we discuss:
• What insulin resistance actually is
• How insulin resistance can develop before diabetes
• Fasting insulin and HOMA-IR
• Whether blood sugar spikes are actually harmful
• Continuous glucose monitors for healthy people
• Berberine and whether it actually works
• Apple cider vinegar and post-meal walks
• Strength training, cardio and daily movement
• Calorie intake, body fat and metabolic health
• Protein, fibre and blood sugar control
• The problem with over-optimizing your health
• What actually matters for long-term wellness

Follow Dr. Adrian Chavez on Instagram: @dr.adrianchavez

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DISCLAIMER: Nothing mentioned in this episode is medical advice and should not be taken as so. If you have any health concerns, please discuss these with your doctor or a licensed healthcare professional.

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:07

If you're doing all the right things, eating clean, taking the supplements, following the skincare routine, and you're still breaking animal bloated, burnt out or just feeling off, you are not the problem. The problem is that the wellness world wasn't built for real women with real bodies, real stress, and real questions that deserve better than veg advice and viral wellness trends.

SPEAKER_02 0:29

Welcome to Girls on Wellness, the no BS podcast cutting through the noise with science success in zero shape.

SPEAKER_03 0:35

I'm Jamette, and I'm Victoria, and we're naturopathic medical graduates who didn't just wake up one day and decide we were into wellness. We've spent the last decade learning the science, doing the clinical work, and graduating with the degree.

SPEAKER_02 0:48

This isn't just another influencer podcast. We're not here to sell you a grease powder or to tell you to balance your hormones with recycling and good vibes. We're done with fear-mongering around food, detox teas, clean beauty BS, overpriced supplements that you don't need, and the biggest lie is that you are the problem when it doesn't work. We're flipping the script.

SPEAKER_03 1:10

This is Girls Come on Wellness. Smart, sexy, science fact, and developed for women like you. A lot of people are genuinely worried about their insulin resistance and their metabolic health, and they still have no idea what they should actually be paying attention to. What does insulin resistance actually mean? Can you have it even if your blood sugar looks normal? Should you be testing fasting insulin? Is a blood sugar spike after a meal a bad thing? Do healthy people need continuous glucose monitors? And if you are insulin resistant or pre-diabetic, what actually works to help you improve it? That is exactly what we're getting into today with Dr. Adrian Chavez, who has a PhD focused specifically on insulin resistance and metabolic health. And I think what makes this conversation so valuable is that we don't just tell you which viral blood sugar hacks are overblown, but Dr. Chavez actually breaks down what moves the needle. We talk about why insulin resistance can start years before diabetes ever develops, the blood work that can help you identify it, what exercise does to your glucose metabolism, why both strength training and cardio matter, the role of overall calorie intake and body fat, and even where things like berberine, walking after meals, and CGMs may actually fit. Because if you're worried about your blood sugar, you do not need another list of 10 other things to fear. You need to understand what your body is doing, what the meaningful warning signs actually are, and which few things are worth putting your energy and your money into. And by the end of this episode, I think you're going to feel a lot clearer about all of those things. Let's get into it. Welcome to Girls Gone Wellness, Dr. Chavez.

SPEAKER_00 3:31

Glad to be here. Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_03 3:33

Did I pronounce your name right?

SPEAKER_00 3:35

Yes, you did.

unknown 3:36

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 3:38

We are so excited to have this conversation today. We love your work. Jeanette and I are new clinicians, and we use your Instagram, your podcast, as resources for patients all the time. So we're very, very excited to chat with you. Um, I was just saying before we clicked record, we didn't know you had your PhD specifically in insulin resistance and metabolic health before we created this uh episode kind of guideline for today. So it worked out perfectly. Um, definitely excited to jump in and bust some myths in this health space. Tell us first how you got interested in this in the first place.

SPEAKER_00 4:13

Uh I think it was uh during grad school, I was just learning about public health nutrition and public health overall. And uh as I was learning more about it, one of the glaringly obvious things that was, you know, an issue is everyone's talking about obesity. And it's like, yes, obesity is an issue, but the real underlying factor that's the problem is not the you know the fat that's on someone's body, it's the metabolic health that's in it's associated with that. So like there's some people that are overweight that are completely metabolically healthy, and there are some people that are uh normal weight that are metabolically in poor health, and those people have those uh obesity associated health issues, the people who are you know normal weight with poor metabolic health. So uh it was like during grad school, I was getting a master's degree in exercise science at the time. Uh, ended up switching like my whole uh study into nutrition because during that time I like changed my diet a little bit and I just got really interested in nutrition. I was like, okay, exercise is pretty simple. Like overall, I'm like, I already got a master's in it. I I feel like I understand it. I want to learn more about nutrition. So, like that piece of like seeing, you know, everyone's talking about obesity, and I was like, oh, it's actually like more metabolic health. And when you really, you know, boil it down, it's like insulin resistance is probably the main marker of metabolic health. And what we we don't really talk about that until it turns into type 2 diabetes, but there's prediabetes insulin resistance that occurs 10, 15, 20 years before any of this stuff develops, like before anyone has you know A1C that would go into the diabetic range, they're insulin resistant for 10, 15 years. That's identifiable, that's that's treatable, that you can address that. And so that's what got me really interested in it. I decided I wanted to go do a PhD working on that. Uh I went to Arizona State University that and like I went there specifically because there was professors there that were working on cardiovascular uh disease and insulin resistance, and and so I was working under them for a few years, and uh that was a long time ago, and now uh you know I I finished my PhD in 2015. Been uh I have been working with clients, but also started putting stuff out online because of the myths that I would run into. Like that's the only reason I got on social media. I wasn't even on Instagram before, uh, but I would I would work with people um and it was like friend referrals and through Facebook and through my network and stuff, and uh everyone would be like, Oh, well, what about this and what about that? And I was like, Where are you learning this stuff? And then I got on social media and I was like, Oh wow, there's like everyone just saying everything here, and I didn't know that was really a thing. Uh I I I got exposures to that early on with blogs. So, like for me, it was blogs and books that I read that that's what prompted me to get my PhD. I read all these blogs and books, and I'm like, I don't know what the truth is because everybody has a different stance, and they all are so convincing, and they they have this story and this conspiracy that's you know leading up to it that like draws you in and makes you believe it. And uh, you know, I believed all these things in my early 20s, and I'm like, I need to uh actually pursue a formal education to figure out what's going on because I'm giving advice to a certain degree to people, and and I'm like, I sometimes don't don't really know. And I've I've read all these books and all these blogs and spent hundreds of hours trying to trying to like inform myself on this topic, and I was just there were things where I'm like, okay, I heard heard this from this person that I believed, and then I heard this complete opposite thing from this other person that also seemed really believable, and it's really hard to make sense of that all.

SPEAKER_02 7:49

Oh, yeah, for sure. I mean, when everyone is a doctor or there's lots of doctors on Instagram that are giving completely different advice, it's hard, like as a regular consumer to discern what's right and what's wrong, right? Like if you have this authority figure, people are just gonna believe that you're sharing the truth, quote unquote. But it goes a lot further than that. It was funny, I came across this video on Instagram. And she was a dietitian and a PhD. And she was, you know, talking about how everyone on Instagram, all the influencers like to talk about nutrition as if they have a PhD. But in reality, you even said you went, you know, you did insulin resistance and study of that for four years, and that's just one, you know, type or thing for for uh for nutrition. So it's just it's crazy. Like you really need that formal education, and you can't teach yourself through social media, unfortunately.

SPEAKER_00 8:35

You cannot teach yourself through social media. Uh, I mean, you think you can because you don't really have there's not a reality check on like where you're wrong, and if your social media algorithm will just keep reinforcing those beliefs that you have. If you're like, oh, I I got exposed to this thing, I started to believe that it'll just keep reinforcing it. And yeah, it's it there there's a there's a level of you have to understand the basics of science to understand and understand how to read studies and and all of that to really to get to the high level of nutrition. Like the basics of nutrition, it's it's easy stuff, but if you really are trying to get into the details, which of what it is what people are doing on social media, they're like, hey, nutrition for how to reduce your bloating or how to reduce your autoimmune conditions, and like that stuff is really, really complicated. And also with like blood sugar control, like we're gonna talk about today, like that's a little bit less complicated, but but there's a lot more nuance to what's being talked about on social media. It's just like, oh, you know, do all these hacks to get your blood sugar down. It's like, yeah, first of all, do you need to be doing those things? Uh or do those things improve your long-term health? Like, it's it's there's a lot of nuance missing there because oversimplifying things is what in and taking an extreme stance of like uh blood sugar's killing you, take it down as low as possible is an extreme stance that is really simple that will go viral, and you can easily just like um repeat that message over and over again in different ways and and create different videos. And and that's um most of what people are getting exposed to with nutrition and health information is not necessarily what's true, it's it's what it's what can get put into a 30-second video and and get shared over and over again, unfortunately.

SPEAKER_02 10:15

Yeah, what has the most clickbait for sure, what can get you viral. Um that's why we started this podcast. You know, me and Vic, we are we graduated from naturopathic medical school. And in the naturopathic community, it can go a little crazy in the other direction. So that's kind of why we kind of started this podcast to bust a lot of those myths that we hear a lot in our space from our patients, but then also just from people in our community. Um, so we kind of wanted to jump in and kind of go to the other side and be like, okay, a lot of these things are a lot overblown, but this is, you know, this is the evidence, and we're bringing on experts like you to do that. So that's why we started this podcast. But anyway, want to get into the insulin resistance piece. Everyone is very obsessed with sugar, glucose, blood sugar, that whole conversation. Um, I think majority of people kind of understand the whole like insulin resistance kind of piece, but again, like it can get blown out of proportion online. Um like out of all the wild claims, what is like what is one that is the most blown out of proportion that you see or that you yeah, hear from your clients?

SPEAKER_00 11:22

I think just overall the the idea of the glucose spikes in general, it's like um your your blood sugar is supposed to go up after a meal. Like that's that's metabolism. That's not a glucose spike, especially these numbers that you see online. Like uh when people are sharing their their CGM values and they're like showing this this red value that looks scary and they're like, oh, my glucose spiked into this, you know, danger zone. It's it's like 30 milligrams per deciliter above like baseline, is what what it usually is set to, which is just normal metabolism. That just meant means you eat you ate some carbohydrates. Like your blood glucose will go up higher than that if you did intense exercise. Uh, because your body will will liberate glucose to to provide energy for to fuel that exercise. Like that's there's no like there's no evidence whatsoever, and there's no reason to be worried about those like acute spikes. If it goes up, that's that's just what happens as a part of your metabolism. Now, if it stays up and it doesn't come back down, and your blood sugar is consistently elevated, that's that's an issue. But those those are two completely different things. And what happened is um online, and again, it's easy to take you know one thing and and twist it a little bit. So high blood sugar, if it's consistently elevated, is a problem, but um having it go up for uh 30 minutes after your meal or a couple hours after your meal isn't a problem, but you can make it seem like that by taking the data of high blood sugar, so people will take some of that information too. They'll say, you know, these are the negative health benefits of hyper hyperglycemia, so this is why we have to avoid blood sugar spikes. And it's like yes, those are the negative health benefits uh negative health effects of having like a high HBA1C or high fasting glucose. It's an indicator of real metabolic dysfunction, not the fact that you ate carbohydrates in your mouth. And so what happens with these uh when you're trying to avoid glucose spikes, um, it causes people to avoid carbohydrate-containing foods because that's what gets your glucose to go down, which then you're trading that for fat-containing foods. And if there there the technology isn't there yet, but if there was a thing called a continuous triglyceride monitor, because triglycerides we have a ton of data to show that triglycerides after the meal was like one of the biggest predictors of cardiovascular disease risk. So if if we had a a a device that like was a tr continuous triglyceride monitor and people were wearing that, when you when you reduce your blood sugar spike, unless you're reducing your calorie intake by a lot, you're just switching that for fat usually. And then you have a big triglyceride spike that stays up for even longer because triglycerides should stay in your blood for nine, ten, twelve hours sometimes. And then that's a that's a different problem. Like, but you're just avoid you're you're ignoring that because you're looking at one side of the equation and it's really total energy intake, total metabolism uh that really matters. And if your blood sugar, like I said, if it's if it's consistently elevated, you're gonna see that in HBA1C, you're gonna see that in fasting glucose, and those issues will show up in in uh normal ways of how we assess glucose, uh not you know, doing a you know, wearing a glucose monitor all the time. And with that said, uh glucose monitors are one of the most amazing technologies to ever like be in existence for people with type 1 diabetes. Like they started coming out when I was doing my PhD like early on, we were using them in my PhD program. And I told everyone about them back then because I thought it was amazing, because for people who are type 1 diabetic and type 2 diabetic who don't have a pancreas, who who really can't uh regulate their glucose properly and they need to to you know inject insulin, it's the best thing you can possibly have. It's it's gonna save you know millions of lives over time. But it's not something that everyone needs because your body is uh your body regulates blood sugar on its own and you have a pancreas that's meant to do that. And unless you have underlying metabolic health issues, you really don't need to get that intricate with your uh with you know paying attention to every single blood sugar increase and decrease. Now, with that said, there are certain cases, like for example, I'll run into people who are like they're really, you know, they're really active, they lead a really healthy lifestyle in their, you know, pre-diabetic, borderline diabetic, and they don't know why. So like wearing a glucose monitor to kind of figure out what those fluctuations can be can be helpful. Like they can be helpful in certain diagnostic contexts, but like just for a healthy person to just wear it and try to make nutrition choices based on how that's impacting your glucose is not a good decision. And another thing, like if you uh if you just ate a stick of butter before every meal, you would blunt your blue glucose control, like you you would blunt every glucose spike.

SPEAKER_03 16:06

Don't say that, they're not gonna do it.

SPEAKER_00 16:08

No, I mean that's just like it it's it just doesn't when all of this first came out, I was like, what's no way this is gonna get like popular, and then it just got really popular because truly, if you if you went to go eat a piece of cake, but you had a stick of butter beforehand, it would just slow your digestion so much that your glucose wouldn't spike. And so your blood sugar would go up slowly over the next like 12 hours, but it wouldn't spike and and it would reduce that you know time in the red, and but then your blood, your triglycerides will be out of control for the next day. Um, but that's you don't see that, you know, and so that yeah, that's it's been a big issue that it I feel like it's calmed down now in terms of the blood sugar uh craze, but that was yeah, that was really you know a problem for a lot of people. And people are terrified of like eating fruit, eating rice, eating potatoes, um, because they don't want their blood sugar to spike. And it's like that's oh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:02

I mean, it can it can go down a slippery slope, like to distorted eating and all of that conversation, right? If you're just like not eating carbs or fruits and vegetables, and then yeah, it can be scary. I also think like the carnivores would say that the triglyceride spike is a good thing, so careful with that. Like that could go the other direction as well. They would twist it somehow.

SPEAKER_00 17:23

Yeah, we have like the data on postprandial triglycerides is like the same as with glucose. Like when people have higher triglycerides, that's yeah, and this is the thing is like it's easy to hear these things and be like, oh my god, this is but that's I studied this for four years, and like I had to write papers on all of the different mechanisms of cardiovascular disease related to nutrition. And so, like when you hear these things, I'm like, oh yeah, triglycerides matter too, though. And we're just not paying attention to this because you you spend a lot of time uh doing this when you get like a formal education in in actual nutrition. And a lot of people like, oh, you're brainwashed. It's so crazy because like a PhD, they no one teaches you, they just you just have projects, like no one's teaching you you decide what you're gonna study, and then you do projects and papers in and I ran studies, like I I was running like nutrition classes in in uh during my PhD. Like you're not no one's brainwashing, you're you're it's a completely independent degree for the most part.

SPEAKER_03 18:25

Yeah, I love it. Well, if you ever make a triglyceride monitor, make sure you shout us out, please. I want to be part of that.

SPEAKER_00 18:33

Somebody's probably working on it. Um they they were they were years ago, because I mean for research purposes, because all these things are mainly like they're made for research purposes and then and then clinical purposes, and then the companies are like, well, we have this technology now, like let's go ahead and start marketing it to everybody. Uh and and they can increase their their uh customer base by 20x because instead of just type one diabetics, they sell it to every single person.

SPEAKER_03 19:01

Oh, yeah. And the same people will complain about the price of fruits and vegetables, but they'll buy themselves a CDM when they don't see that. Yeah. Anyway, um, okay. I actually think that for as much as we talk about insulin resistance, I would say the majority of people talking about it probably couldn't explain it. So I would love for you to tell us like what even is insulin resistance? Because I think a lot of people think it's just an issue of just eating too much sugar. So I'd love to break that down if you can.

SPEAKER_00 21:06

Yeah, so insulin resistance is um your cells, uh insulin is what tells your cells to bring in glucose and other forms of energy, also protein and other other nutrients as well. So, like when we eat either protein or uh carbohydrates, and most people don't know this, protein also increases insulin because it's necessary to get it into the cell as well. But carbohydrates and protein, when we eat those, uh it causes the release of insulin from the pancreas, and that the insulin is what's needed to get the carbohydrates and protein where that where it needs to go. So the insulin will bind to cells throughout the body, the liver, the muscles, the the fat tissue, and then that it'll tell those cells to take up that glucose, to take up that protein. Um, we become insulin resistant mostly because our cells are already too full of energy. So when our cells become too full of energy, they don't have more room to take in more energy and there's no need for more energy. And so they just stop responding to that to that uh signal that insulin's sending. So insulin will bind to those cells, and uh inside of the cell, it won't do what it's supposed to do. And that's what's called insulin resistant. So the insulin will bind to the cells, it's kind of like if someone if if someone came knocking on the door and you usually go and open it, but someone's knocking and you just don't open it. So what happens is your body will um once when your body starts to become insulin resistant, it'll put out more insulin. And so it's just like it'll knock harder essentially, um, and it starts to put out more insulin, and that'll help keep blood sugar uh control uh usually normal for most people for years. Like you'll you'll just have hyperinsulinemia where insulin levels instead of like someone who's really insulin sensitive will usually have like insulin under five, uh like three, two. Um people who are not really insulin sensitive, like kind of healthy, but not really insulin sensitive, usually under 10. People who are insulin resistant 20, 30 sometimes, like and so 15 is usually like 10 to 15 is usually the cutoff. Um there's not like a defined uh number for insulin resistance right now because it's it's just kind of complicated to define it, and there's no there's no medication to treat it, so it's there's no like priority to define it as like a uh you know a disease because there is no treatment for it at this point except for lifestyle uh changes, really. And so um that'll happen, your body will put out more insulin and and so that's fine, it'll help keep blood sugar down, but the higher insulin levels um also have other effects. So they they won't like it'll help to keep blood sugar down, but when you Have the higher insulin level. For example, that's one of the main causes of PCOS in women because it leads to higher levels of uh androgen release because insulin increases testosterone release. It's also um can increase blood pressure because it leads to higher level of fluid retention, can lead to increased cancer risk because insulin is a growth signal, so you have a much higher insulin level, it's causing much more growth signal um into the body. And so there's like many things that are associated with hyperinsulinemia, even if someone doesn't develop type 2 diabetes. And so um insulin, we don't want it to be high, we want it to be low. Um, we want it to go up when it needs to go up and mostly stay low. And so that's a big factor. Is a lot of people, way before they get type 2 diabetes or even prediabetes, their insulin will go from, you know, if they're young and healthy and active, it'll be two or three or four, and it'll go up to eight, to ten, to fifteen over, you know, a five to ten year period. And that may have may cause hormonal issues, may cause high blood pressure. It'll also cause higher amounts of um APOB APO B containing lipoproteins, or like LDL cholesterol, um, all of those things because that insulin is still sending some of those same signals. It's just uh the main one that's not the cells aren't responding to or the glucose uptake, they're not listening to insulin telling them to take in energy.

SPEAKER_02 24:56

Right. Okay, that's a great explanation. When you say your cells are too full of energy, does that mean that you're eating in a calorie surplus? Like you're you're taking in too many calories? Is that what you mean by that?

SPEAKER_00 25:08

Yeah, yeah, it'll accumulate. Um, you can basically become insulin resistant in like two days. Like if you just overeat for two days, your cells will just go become really insulin resistant. Um, same thing on the other end. Like if you were really insulin resistant and you went into a really deep calorie deficit and you cleared out a lot of that excess energy. So when you when they biopsy a cell though, you'll find like it's called fat intermediate, so it's like ceramides, diaceylglycerols. Um, it's like uh basically fat particles that aren't packaged into triglycerides for storage. And it's just you've overwhelmed the system. Like the the body, the the cells cannot, they don't have room to store more fat, they don't have anywhere to, they don't have you know anywhere to use it, so the whole system is overwhelmed. And so same thing happens, like for example, the liver, the liver will start to accumulate a whole bunch of fat on it and and nothing works anymore. Like there's a bunch of fat on the liver, and all these fat metabolites and intermediate fat metabolites, those are the things that like directly interfere with signaling. So like we they they found like when they do like cell studies and they look at what's actually occurring, it's like these these intermediate fat metabolites will directly interfere with that signal because insulin will bind to the to the cell, it'll cause you know other things to occur in the cell, and it'll completely just interfere with that uh the the process like uh following through inside of the cell.

SPEAKER_02 26:32

Okay, fascinating. Um, I know in clinic, me and Vic, we use the HOMA IR score a lot to determine insulin resistance. Do you find that that's like a valuable score or you use it?

SPEAKER_00 26:44

Yeah, HOMA IR is the the best uh like the best way to like quickly clinically assess it. Uh insulin, fasting insulin is good on its own. Um, because you if you just have trends, but the HOMA IR is is a good just individual you know time point. But if you have a trend and you you can just see like is fasting increasing over time. Because for most people, I mean metabolic health is gonna decline with age if they're not really intentional about making sure that it doesn't, and and fasting insulin will go up, and it's a good market to show people like, hey, your metabolism's starting to go in the wrong direction, things might start, you know, uh, because it'll it'll it'll once someone's insulin goes from five to fifteen or twenty, you'll start to see it in LDL cholesterol, blood pressure, maybe hormones, other factors as well. Maybe like central adiposity as well, like they may start to accumulate more belly fat uh as opposed to fat in other parts of the body, like it causes a few different um physiological responses still.

SPEAKER_02 27:43

Okay. And then besides blood work, is there any other like symptoms or markers that people should be paying attention to or clinicians should be paying attention to if someone is insulin resistant? Like, do you start getting symptoms before you kind of reach that like diabetes state?

SPEAKER_00 27:59

That's the hard part. You really don't, except for the stage of a bossity, like the except for gaining weight in your in your abdominal area, like there's not really like some people will develop like hypoglycemia too, so they'll they'll sometimes um they'll experience like low blood sugar events just because of the way that their blood sugar regulation is just completely not working properly. But right, uh most people won't really experience symptoms, just like uh cardiovascular disease, like heart disease, you know, metabolic health conditions, like we don't really feel them. We just have to pay attention to blood work and and and do all the lifestyle things that it protect ourselves from uh developing them.

SPEAKER_03 28:37

I always wonder about fasting insulin because I feel like that's like one of the things in naturopathic medicine. We're always like, you need to test your fasting insulin. And then sometimes on the other side of things, they're like, not really. And I I wonder if we should be looking into that. And is the reason we're not looking into it because there's no real like treatment aside from lifestyle?

SPEAKER_00 28:57

Uh, so I have wondered about this for so long and have had these conversations multiple times. I think the reason that it's not universally tested is it doesn't add that much clinically unless in very like specific situations. So you're gonna see something in A1C or you're gonna see like someone's already gaining weight. So like you can identify those underlying metabolic health issues without testing a fasting insulin, and there's in uh additional cost of fasting insulin, it's not measured on the same, like uh so LDO and and HDO and triglycerides are usually measured on a on a very simple uh machine, whereas insulin is a radioimmino assay, it usually costs a little bit more, like 15 or 20 bucks. But uh those costs matter in the larger scheme of of the healthcare system. So um, if it was like an ideal situation, they yeah, we'd measure fasting insulin on everyone. It's just a matter of like it's a cost-benefit situation in healthcare that they have to pay attention to, and so that's why doctors, um, a lot of MDs will kind of urge against it because they don't want to see a thousand people going in and testing their fasting insulin, and then the insurance company's not gonna cover it, they're gonna get a bill for 200 bucks for a $12 test. Because I've seen that. Um, I've seen people go in and ask for some of the stuff that I like have talked about, and then they get a bill back, or like people I'm working with too, or they try to go through their insurance and they get a bill back, and I'm like, you could have just bought it online for 200 bucks for the whole panel, and and you paid $600 for through insurance because they they did an upchart. So uh I think that speaks mostly to our broken healthcare system, also to like there's just nuance to where it may be useful, and it's not going to be useful in everyone. So running this test it costs a little bit more. You can run a whole panel for the cost of you know a fasting insulin test for the most part, a whole panel of like LDO, HBA1C, all of that stuff. And so I think uh that's it's probably the cost versus like benefit is the main reason that a lot of clinicians are against it. But when I'm working with someone who um who's concerned about metabolic health issues and you know they have a family history, their H A1C may have got into the pre-diabetic range, I'll tell them to just monitor it occasionally. Um, not something you need to do all the time for everyone, but if you you know test it once and it's it's good and you don't see any decline in metabolic health, you don't really have to worry about it too much.

SPEAKER_03 31:27

Okay. Because I do kind of like when I have like a patient when we've looked at the HOMA IR, like being able to see like, does that get time?

SPEAKER_00 31:35

If someone wants to improve blood sugar control, um yeah, I insulin is so helpful. I I don't understand. I've yeah, I've because I I've also I've had a few clients, um, I mostly work with digestive health issues. Um I don't I got my PhD in in blood sugar stuff, and then I just started running into people with all these GI issues, and so like I spent like six years only learning about GI stuff after that. Um but uh I've worked with a few people with these like pretty complicated like metabolic health issues, and and they've gone to multiple doctors and they're not um doing like you know, they're not doing fasting insulin. Sometimes they don't even do like a two-hour oral glucose tolerance test, and like there's there's different ways to kind of see how glucose metabolism is how someone's metabolism is working, and and this is one of those ways. But not again, it's a difference between not that's that's the reason like a a lot of times when you see people educating online, especially on social media. If if you're a doctor trying to educate responsibly on social media and you're trying to stay evidence-based, you kind of take the very conservative route that's more generalizable versus the thing that's gonna be helpful for a very specific portion of the population. Like if you ask me about fasting insulin on social media, my answer may be a little bit different. When you're on a podcast, you have more time to kind of talk things through. Yeah, and so that's why I always direct people to my podcast. I'm like, if I'm if there's a topic that you want to want to learn more about, just go to the podcast because like it's just difficult, especially in the realm of like everything's gotta be quick and fast and engaging. It's hard to really get into like what's what's actually true versus hey, I gotta just put out some clickbait info, you know, content to get the algorithm to pick it up at all.

SPEAKER_03 33:17

Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Speaking of clickbait, um, there is, I'm not gonna name the person, but there's a very big account on Instagram that loves to talk about glucose hacks that I'm sure the three of us know what I'm talking about right now. Um, this is something I see constantly, like people taking shots of apple cider vinegar before they eat. Um, berberine is a huge one. Oat milk is like the devil in our community. And I wonder, like, we know that if someone does not have any issues with insulin resistance, that it's not a concern. Is it, if someone is, let's say, pre-diabetic or at risk for diabetes, is it beneficial at all to kind of do any of these hacks, or is there just no research to support that?

SPEAKER_00 34:03

Um, so all of them, there's research to support them. And funny, like uh a lot of that was done when I was at ASU, like the vinegar study and the walking after meals were both done when I was at doing my PhD and like uh at the school that I was at. And and our the professor who did them presented them to us. And the reason that they didn't like that didn't pick up is because the people who were taking shots of vinegar developed GI issues because they were taking shots of vinegar before their meals, and and and like and you don't get that side of things. Someone takes that study and they're like, oh, cool. But what happens is like the acetic acid, it it deactivates some enzymes that break down carbohydrates in your gut. And so, yes, it lowers the glucose response, but then you just don't you're not able to digest those carbohydrates for a longer period of time, it just takes longer and they can get fermented in your gut sometimes and cause GI issues. So, like they were worried that people were developing SIBO and stuff because a lot of people were reporting like bloating, and then they were also reporting upper GI issues as well, like heartburn and stuff, because of a shot of vinegar. And so um it works, like the for example, with the that one works because it's deactivating the enzymes that break down carbohydrates. Um, is that something that I would recommend for most people? Not really. I mean, if you want to have like a you know salad with some balsamic vinegar before a meal or whatever, like that's great in it. I mean, if if you want to do that to try to get it down as much as possible, but like I that would be the last thing that I would be recommending for people. Um, the walking after meals, like that's one of the hacks. Yeah, it works. I mean, yeah, all physical activity um uses uh glucose. So the reason that walking will reduce the spike is because as blood sugar is getting released, or as the sugar from your meal is getting released, you're just using it. Um same thing. If you walk anytime, it's gonna help reduce your sugar a little bit. And then any exercise, like if you did a hard exercise before your meal, that would blunt that blood sugar response too, because your body would just be replenishing those blood sugar stores in your in your muscles and tissues. And so, like uh that is a cool hack, but in reality, like just living an active lifestyle and and including some aerobic exercise and lifting, and like those are the things that are really important. If you want to walk after a meal as a part of including more activity into your lifestyle, that's amazing, but you're gonna get a lot more from like actually you know building a good exercise routine, like a couple of days a week of uh two to three days a week of lifting, two to three days a week of of some type of cardio, like the the data on that is amazing. Like it will it will reduce blood sugar substantially, like all the time. Like if you're wearing a glucose monitor and you start and you went from not exercising to exercising regularly, um it would you would have a completely different response after your meals between your meals at night, it would just go down. There would just be a drop in your blood sugar completely. And so that's the the biggest thing is like just building an active lifestyle because that's what you're you're you're going to eat glucose from your meals. You're supposed to. It's it's yeah, we it's what we need it. It keeps us alive. Like if you didn't have glucose, you would die. Um like trying to get it down as much as possible doesn't make sense. Like we're gonna eat it as a part, it's a it's an energy source. Um if you're if you have a good diet, like you don't really need to worry about that too much if you have a good, healthy, balanced diet. Now, if you're eating, you know, drinking soda and you're you're eating a lot of highly processed carbohydrates that don't have a lot of fiber, and that's the majority of your diet, then yeah, changing that is gonna help. And if that's where people benefit sometimes is because they're eating like that, and then if they just focus on reducing glucose, they have to stop eating those things. And so they just, you know, you eat a healthier diet when you do that, or you it just forces you to to avoid some things that you know aren't healthy anyway. So like really focusing on just like good, healthy dietary principles, active lifestyle um is really gonna be most important for most people now. People who have like pre-diabetes, type type 2 diabetes, like those people may need to get a little bit more intentional about some of some of these things, like uh like in in terms of making sure that you're having like a little bit of fiber with every like you know, instead of like eating fruit on its own, maybe having some protein with it just to make sure that your blood sugar is not going up too high, because people who have already dysregulated metabolism, um, they are gonna see really high fluctuations that go up and down that they have to pay a little bit more attention to. But when you're you know, if you have a healthy metabolism, and and even those people, when they start exercising, all of that improves. Like yeah, it'll improve after a couple of weeks usually with exercise. And um uh one of the questions that I saw, and I don't know if you you guys were gonna answer, but like in the in the that we discussed, is like how do you improve your metabolism? Like exercise is is like what builds your engine. Like we your metabolism, like when we talk about metabolism, your metabolism is like the engine that fuels the energy, you know, fluctuations in your body and how your body produces energy. And the way to improve that, like you see all these crazy hacks and stuff, and people telling you, you know, this supplement and this, it's just exercise, it's building muscle and improving your aerobic fitness. And when you do those things, like when you improve your, you know, everyone like there's been like a bash against cardio recently, and and it doesn't make sense. Like cardiovascular exercise is what improves the health of your your heart, your blood vessels, your lungs, and these it's like the main causes of death is like cardiovascular disease, COPD. Like we um when you're doing cardiovascular exercise, it it it also improves your metabolism and the way that that works because you're you're using so much energy and you're forcing your body to learn how to deal with that high amount of energy demand, and that trains your muscles and tissues and blood vessels and heart to to pump more energy to your tissues and to to turn that oxygen into energy, and and that's what like all of most of what we're like. I see so much stuff online about all these hacks and stuff, and it's like most of what people are trying to get out of a lot of this stuff is like you could just get with a good exercise routine. And like nutrition's important too. Yeah, um, and I say this as someone who you know have a PhD in nutrition, it's great, but but like exercise is more important for long-term health, for longevity, for wellness. Like it's going to preserve your your physical function better. It's going to like I said, like you can't nutrition your way into improving the way that your heart pumps blood. Like you can you can provide your body with great fuel. Like, and so like the way that I view that is like if your body's a car, when you exercise, you're upgrading all of the components of your car. So you let's say you had like a, and I don't want to say like a car that's like because I don't want to make it seem negative, but like let's say you had not a great car, and then you started like you know, you you got better tires and better shocks and a better engine and you know better body, and then you can turn it into you know a Lamborghini or a supercar that's just a really high performance great car through exercise. Like, that's what exercise does. Uh, nutrition is the fuel that you're putting in it, and so and in the the the oil and the you know wiper, all the fluids that that help maintain the car. And so, like, that's what nutrition does, but exercise is like upgrades the car that you have in every way because when you stress your body with exercise, it just gets better. Like, you you you and that's the challenge. Everyone's like, oh, exercise hard. That's the hard of exercise is what signals your body to get better, and so like when you're when when you're lifting a weight that feels really heavy, that's where your body now says, Oh, I need to be able to lift that weight next time I'm asked to lift it, so I'm gonna get stronger. And like all of the adaptations that occur through exercise are like kind of on the other side of it being hard, and a lot of people are avoiding that. And I see I think that's the biggest thing I see uh today that wasn't really the case so much, you know, 10 or 15 years ago, is people are going more towards trying to optimize all these little things around nutrition and peptide stack and uh optimizing every little part of sleep. And it's like, but but not a lot of people, very, very few people that I ever talk to have like a really good, consistent exercise routine that has both cardio and lifting into in it. And the few people that I know that do are the healthiest people I know, and and like, but it's a it's a very small select portion of even a larger group of like I know a lot of really healthy people who are in the space that but they're more they're more focused on some of a lot of the optimization stuff of like trying to get all the all the sugars down and the seed oils out and all this stuff, and it's like this other side, and that well, that's one of the things that kind of um really got me interested in like long-term health and and and exercise as well. It's like I got a master's degree and bachelor's degree in exercise science, and the professors in that program were all like 60s and 70s, and they all they were they they were all in great shape, they all ran and had sports that they did. I was like, they're doing something right. Like I wanted to just and and none of them were like super into nutrition, they didn't even pay attention to it, like they were just old school like exercisers, you know, uh exercised a lot almost every day and just didn't didn't uh you know didn't really think about nutrition that much, except for like, oh, I just don't want to overeat.

SPEAKER_02 43:55

Yeah, instead of the uh peptide stack, we should do, you know, a weight training stack instead.

SPEAKER_00 44:01

Yeah, exactly. It's fine.

SPEAKER_02 44:02

People will inject God knows what, but they won't lift a weight, but it's fine.

SPEAKER_00 44:06

Yeah, it's I mean, and then even even the weight lifting that is occurring, a lot of people are um you know, they're getting and nothing wrong with Pilates, but it's like we need like over time the thing the thing that we get benefit from with weights is getting stronger. And Pilates will get you stronger for the first couple of months because you're not exposed to anything, but it's mostly stretching after that. And you know, after you get a little bit of strength gains, whereas like with resistance training, if you if you're actually using weights and you you kind of follow a program and you're it's just you just need to do the same thing over and over again. Like everyone thinks it has to be complicated. You need to do like the same 10 movements over and over again, two times or three times a week for that's pretty much what I've been doing for the last 20 years. And and you know, you just get a lot stronger over time, and with that strength is an indication that your muscles are working better, your joints are stronger, your ligaments are stronger, your your muscles are stronger, they work better, your metabolism's improved, and all of that translates to improved quality of life as well. Like that's the other side of it, is like you know, we talk about lifting a lot, and every everyone thinks it's like coming from a place of like the way you look, but it's like it just makes your life easier. Like every part of your life becomes easier, and it takes two or three hours a week, like you know, if you're following like a simple program.

SPEAKER_02 45:26

Mm-hmm. Yeah, and people screen time is way past that. Like they can find two to three hours a week, I promise you. But yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:34

I mean you can get some screen time in between sets if you need to.

SPEAKER_02 45:36

Yeah, yeah. Yep, for sure. Um, I know we kind of we talked about strength training and all of that is super important, but I just I need to talk about one supplement just before we move on because I know a lot of people still ask me about it. We get questions all the time. Berberine. People were calling it nature's osempic. We know it's not nature's ozempic. Now people are calling it like nature's metformin. Um, I just I I just want to talk about this one specifically because we see it all the time. Like, is there research to support it? Do you think if you're doing all the right things, if you're exercising your nutrition's dialed, like is it worth adding in? What do you think?

SPEAKER_00 46:13

If you have elevated blood sugar and you're doing all the right things, uh berberine might be one of the best supplements to consider. Um, I wouldn't consider it if you have if you don't have elevated blood sugar, because it's going to put you in hypoglycemia and plus it can cause nausea for some people. Um but uh berberine, I I'm always careful with talking about supplements, especially in this scenario, because berberine has some pretty good data. We don't have like good super long-term data, but like two year, two-year studies where it reduces blood pressure, uh LDO cholesterol, and blood sugar, like improves all of those. And I I published a podcast on this a long time ago, but then I took it down because I'm like, I I just don't want too many people to like go out and take it without proper supervision. Um but like I I think if berberine was a patentable drug, it would it would be a multi-billion dollar drug. Like it could for people with like people who have like cardiometabolic health issues, and they're like, you know, like you said, they're they're trying to do all the right things, but maybe they have a family history or whatever, they have a long history of like they they gain a lot of weight early on and their metabolism is just a little off. And so like it can improve blood sugar control. A lot of those people also have slightly high LDLs, so let's say your LDL is 120, you have slightly elevated A1C, blood pressure's a little bit high, like from all of the data I've seen, like and and I've actually recommended it to people in that scenario, like it's it's gonna improve all of those things. And it's you know, there's not a lot of side effects that we've seen in the studies that exist. They're only they're only a couple years long, but you know, that's usually a pretty good amount of time besides like nausea for some people. Um then it also it is an antimicrobial. Um, so I kind of wonder about like what what that might do because the nausea is probably um kind of related to an impact on microbiome. So maybe it's like causing a shift in the microbiome. Like there may be some negative side effects there. Um, but actually the studies that I've seen like tend to show that the the influence on the microbiome is probably positive. And so uh I haven't I haven't actually looked at that research in like a couple of years, but last time uh yeah, last time I really went into that, like Verbrine and and all of those, because I I read about it a lot during my PhD, and I was I was a big fan. Like I used to tell everyone about it. Um I I I think it in those certain circumstances it is very, very helpful. But I I think a it's the same thing with just what what happens with Ozempic and everything else, is like people hear that it's helpful for these certain circumstances, and then everyone wants to jump on it to try to optimize everything, and it's like you're just gonna get to a place where you're just taking so much stuff, and yeah, and and then it's exhausting. You have this crazy routine. I believe me, I did this in my 20s where I was like taking 12 different supplements, and I take four before breakfast and six, you know, after lunch, and you know, had this, you know, stack of and and I would only eat you know these foods and wouldn't eat if it was like you know outside of these criteria. And no, and you just um from a wellness perspective, like it it's usually a negative to to take it that far in terms of trying to like optimize everything because it takes away from the other aspects of your life, like your career and your friends and your family and your work, like everything else, like when you're that focused on your health, and like it just negatively affects most people's mental health too when you when you take it that far. Um, and again, like I said, I kind of went through that phase in my 20s of like trying to optimize everything and and not eating these things and and taking all these supplements, and it just gets exhausting over time. You're like, do I feel any better um than I did before? Like you just check in, you're like, oh, you know, I'm my my the the increased effort is you know hours a day or hour, two hours a day, or whatever for like the morning routine and the sleep routine, and it's like how much better do you actually feel? And so like I'm so much more like you know, I I might fall asleep watching TV and like you know, I I don't try to like optimize things the way that I used to, and yeah, and like I feel probably better than I did during those times, and you know, uh it's it's just I I think a lot of people um are falling down that rabbit hole right now of like just trying to take it too far because of the social media information and the way it's presented, um, because the way everything is presented is like this matters so much. Everything gets presented to you is like it's the most important thing ever. No, no blue lights before you go to sleep, and no, you know, you have to get light first thing in the morning. And and the reality is like the data on almost all of that is is like weak and minimal. And and when you actually like read the studies, it's like, oh, that wasn't is like because I say the blue light thing because when I heard that, I heard it on a podcast years ago, and I don't know that much about sleep, so I'm like, oh my god, I need to avoid this and put on the blue light blocking glasses and all of that. And then I read the research and I'm like, hold on, this isn't like near what what I heard on this podcast, and like I just became more skeptical because I used to listen to health podcasts outside of nutrition quite often, and I would hear these things and I would start to implement some of these other things, like grounding mat and and you know, these other you know, other things that get sold, and and um you know they they all sound good when you you hear them, but it's you you realize a lot of it's like there's a um the wellness industry is just it what keeps it going around is a commercial part of it. And so like a lot of the information you hear is like, oh, it's a grounding mat, it's because there's a there's a commercial um you know benefit there of telling you about a grounding mat versus like hey, just go spend some time outside, or like you know, peptides versus like maybe you just need to like spend some time with your friends or like make some friends or like do some things that are gonna like benefit your wellness in a in a better way. Um but like those things don't have like you there's not a coupon code for like making friends or like building community or you know, the things that actually like improve wellness, uh usually there's not a commercial attachment to them, and so they get lost in the conversation. And so like my PhD was actually the title of it was like uh physical activity, nutrition and wellness was the title of it. They changed it after that to like nutrition and exercise science or something like that. Um, but but like that was that's why I went there was because of the wellness side of things, because that was my like uh interest around it was like more of a holistic thinking, and and uh I mean I feel like I got a really good education there that that allowed me to kind of uh it it changed my perspective too, because once you start reading the research on like okay, what are the things that actually improve health? It's like, oh wow, this is way different than than what you hear online of like the things that really matter. And it's it's you know, it's pretty simple. It's like the exercise, you know, not overeating, eating mostly, you know, whole foods and eating a lot of plants is usually like pretty consistent with the data. Like pretty much every study shows that if you eat more plants, you you live a longer life, have lower risk of pretty much every disease, uh like cancer, heart disease, pretty much everything. And so, like apart from nutrition, like those those are the main things. And then outside of that, it's like have you know learn how to manage stress or like not you know, figure out ways to manage stress in your life, and then and then like social connections, like very simple set of like five or six different things that really like oh yeah, and access to healthcare, of course, like yeah, yeah, money, finances, access to healthcare, all that stuff, like the things that never get talked about in the conversation of like wellness. Um but like yeah, when we talk about longevity, like those are those are pretty much the only things that really showed to like okay, these are the things that consistently show uh in the data to like extend lifespan. Um, all the other you know, mTOR medications and IGF medication, and then what is it, NAD uh injections now? Like there's absolutely no data on any of that. And and uh yeah, that's it's um I hear that all the time, like every time because I do Q ⁇ A's on my Instagram, it's like I I get questions like, oh, does this you know improve longevity? And it's like almost always if someone's saying something improves longevity online, they're they're just lying. Like in almost every case, like unless it's just like the most basic information you've heard, like yeah, yeah, unless it's just like oh, eat more fruits and vegetables to live a longer life, like and that that's the only case, like or do more cardio or you know, resistance training. If it's not those very simple things, there's not data on it. And and it it's good, you know, it's it's nice to like to want to be on the cutting edge of things and and and be hopeful around that, but it's like people aren't doing the things that that are already well established. Yeah, and like we gotta focus on the things that have a lot of data behind like how beneficial they are. Like, for example, with like with uh cardio, um like in studies, there's like a 30% mortality reduction for people who do like at least you know 120 minutes of cardio a week or something like that. And it's like yeah, same thing with cardiovascular disease, same thing with Alzheimer's disease, and then the same thing with like resistance training, those risk reductions are 30, 30 percent, you know, that high. And we we don't see anything near that for any of the like a lot of the other stuff that's getting recommended, and and it's like we gotta focus on where the the biggest rocks are that are gonna have the biggest effect, and and those are like uh I think that that conversation is just completely it's like all the extremes are are getting pushed on everyone, and then everyone's missing the simple things and just like doing them well. The foundation, yeah, yeah, just being pretty fit, like just try to build up some cardiovascular fitness over your over your life. You don't have to be a marathon runner or anything like that. Like for me, I have I have gone on some type of run or bike ride or whatever, like two days a week, pretty much my whole life. Like since I was 21 years old, when I started reading about this research, and I'm like, oh, I just have to make sure I keep this in my life. And so if I play basketball once a week, I'll do that and then run one time or like whatever. But I just that's two days a week is like the risk reduction of that is pretty massive. And and you notice it, like your body will, when you're consistent with it, your body adapts and and things get easier. You're walking upstairs and you're like, oh wow, I don't feel out of breath at all. And and that makes a difference. And like uh running is or like aerobic exercise, cardiovascular exercise, it's it's training your blood vessels, and that's like one of the most important things for for long-term health. And and it's one of the things that you you don't feel until you do, and when you do, it's it's dramatic. It's gonna have a massive impact on your health and well-being and physical function.

SPEAKER_03 57:43

Yeah, definitely. I know Jeanette and I have fallen into that trap being in naturopathic medicine. It was a lot of like, what are we gonna optimize today? Like, I must have been on like 10 at least supplements a day. The amount of money I was spending on supplements. And then the other day, and I'm not recommending this, but I realized I didn't take my vitamin D, which is the only supplement I take now. And I took it with my diet coke. And I was like, oh my god, if this was me three years ago, I would have been like, what is she doing?

SPEAKER_01 58:12

You're gonna kill yourself.

SPEAKER_03 58:14

Oh no. It's funny how like I resistance trade now. I sleep eight hours at night. Like these are all things I didn't do when I was like my quote unquote healthiest a couple years ago, doing all the hacks, you know. So it's kind of funny when you look at it from that angle. Like, what is health really?

SPEAKER_00 58:30

Yeah, it's it's bandwidth too. You're just you're you end up just putting a lot of your bandwidth towards things that don't move the needle very much. Yeah, and and and like I said, like what I see a lot of times is it has a negative impact on like either work, social situations. Like for me, like there was a point where I didn't like to go out to eat with people and and stuff like that. And I would I would avoid it, bring my own food, you know. I go to a grocery party or like a birthday party and be like, oh my god, why the why do they have this? And I'd be like, you know, angry about it in my head, like not not at them or whatever, but like why why do people eat like this and get into this like you know uh you know mentality in my head, and I'm just like, who cares? Like it just doesn't doesn't impact me anymore, but but when you when you when you go through that, it it like it consumes you because uh once you see the benefits, I mean it's understandable. I think almost everyone needs to go through like a phase like that where if you get into it and you really see the benefits, like because for me, I I like completely shifted my diet and started like lifting consistently with from not and like just saw my whole body change and like I was like, oh wow, this is crazy. Like I can just completely change the way that my body looks and works and and what I can do. And and when when you see that it it just becomes like kind of intoxicating of like, okay, I want to figure out how to uh how to do this as in the best way possible. So I mean, especially I'm just that type of person who's like, I'm gonna read everything I possibly can and try to learn everything I can about it to figure out. Well, also like just I wanted to learn how how it worked. I'm like, how is that possible to like put on all this muscle and stuff by just like eating and lifting weights? It was it was uh interesting.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:21

I think when you realize that you can feel that good and still live your life and like go out for dinner and not worry about what oil something was cooked in, and like it's just like the stress that you now don't have to deal with has to be so beneficial for your health, too, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:36

Yeah. That that's where I think the the missing link is uh for for a lot of people um in in that space. And and like I said, I think a lot I think it's just it's a phase. I think most people are gonna go through that phase, but right now um social media is keeping people in that phase because it's um it's so prevalent and there's so few people um putting out balanced information, and even those who are, it's just it just doesn't break through the algorithm for a lot of people. So there's a lot of people who their entire exposure is all of this extremity, and it's not they're never building good habits that they're learning how to stick to because they're just kind of on a merry-go round of fat after fat after fat of and they're never like maybe they improve a little bit, but they're never actually like you know, continuing to build up their health. And so yeah, I think I think more so now sometimes people are getting stuck into that uh that phase of you know just not necessarily even optimizing, just doing all of the things that don't move the needle very much that take a lot of time and energy. I see it with the with the food, like the clean eating, you know, quote unquote clean eating side of it. I see so many people like you know, I can't go to the grocery store without reading every single label, and I'm scared to go, I won't go into this grocery store because it's everything's toxic and it's like that um you know that had does so much more harm than good. Uh and that like you're if you're it's hard to focus on the principles of what matter with nutrition, like getting enough protein, getting enough fiber, like the things that actually like fiber consumption reduces like cancer risk by 20-30 percent in a lot of cases. Like uh you know, exposure to acosulfame K doesn't have any data to show any like negative effects. So, like people are worried about these little bitty things that don't have any data to to show they improve things, and then they're missing like getting enough fiber. Uh I can't tell you how I mean I don't think I've ever worked with anyone who was eating enough fiber. Like, in no, it's never it's it's uh very, very rare. And I work with people with GI issues, and that's that's how we fix most of them is like literally just fiber. Like I I've worked with dozens of people who we don't do much more than changing their fiber in where we're just like okay, let's eat a little bit more of this type of fiber, let's avoid these you know, these certain fibers that seem to not be doing well for you that you're getting like tortillas or whatever. Um, because those aren't always bad, but for some people with GI issues, like high concentrated sources of very specific types of fiber cannot be great. And so um that that like those little things, those those big rocks that we know really, really move the needle are really where where I think uh I try to encourage people to just focus more on uh because that's that's just what's gonna matter long term. And it just makes it so easy. It's like these things have been established in research since I I got into this field back 20 years ago and it was the same stuff for the most part. Like they were all of the same stuff was you know, it's it's shifted a little bit in our understanding and the nuances of how we understand certain things is is improved, like how we know a lot more about fiber than we used to and and how that can impact GI issues and stuff like that. But like the general principles of nutrition haven't really changed that much. Like fiber intake, you know, making sure that you're eating the right types of fats, omega-3 fats are important, you know, all all of the same, you know, eating enough protein, all of those same things are are have been consistent for for decades now. And I I don't think any of that's gonna change in my lifetime. No, all of that data is is just really well established. Like there's no there's not really any studies that are gonna come out that are gonna say, oh never mind, plants are no longer good for you, and and and everyone needs to go on a carnivore diet. Like that's never gonna happen. The data is so strong and so consistent, and so like over decades and decades, and study after study, and I mean it's just it's it's really there's some simple principles that are just well established that I think people uh tend to miss because of all of all of the noise that's out there.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:05

I find myself telling a lot of people like if you are absolutely shocked about a headline, you should probably question it. Um if you're you know, if you're seeing things online like, oh, the carnivore diet actually really helps with metabolic syndrome, like maybe not, right? Like, not when we have all of this data to show us otherwise. Um, before we move on, I am just gonna say you did mention naturopathic doctors once on your Instagram. And I'm hoping by the end of this conversation, you realize we're not all crazy.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:35

So I know this, and I've said I said this in the post. I've just well, especially it's changed to because like I said, I've been in this field for a while. Yeah, and when I first got into this field, um it was definitely and also uh I work with a lot of people from Canada. Okay, so that's a different natural that's a different naturopathy than in the US.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:05

That's yeah, that's true. That is true.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:07

That's the other thing, is like so I've also had different exposures of like there's one side of it that's just giving people supplements. Yeah, like oh yeah, and then they come to me and they're on 25 supplements, and that's the other part is I probably get a really negative view of a lot of other practitioners because I work with like the clients that come to me are people with GI issues who've usually been to multiple different practitioners before, and so it's like they've usually always been to either naturopath, functional medicine doctor, or a chiropractor, and they're coming to me and they are on so many supplements every time. Um and it's usually from one of the like it's a functional medicine MD or a naturopath that's put them on just a pile of supplements. And so yeah, I've just had a few bad experiences, but I've also had some really good ones, and I've talked about that too.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:06

Perfect. I'm just kidding. I also happen to agree with that post. Like we just shared it with you here, and we were like, first of all, we were like, okay, he's right. Like, this is what we do. We call out our own profession all day long. But also when we ask him to be on our podcast, we should probably not let him know we're not drawing.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:23

Or like we'll let him know at the end of the episode it's recorded.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:29

So I'm not I'm not one to like I know that titles are just titles. The problem, and this is what we talked about earlier, is like. Sometimes on social media you have to generalize with certain things. And um I get posts from new nutrition posts from naturopaths on social media. I think I don't think I've ever seen an accurate one. And so I think it was in relation to that of like just if you see nutrition stuff from a naturopath on social media, like just be aware that it's usually not gonna be accurate.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:05

Unless it's uh Mirbeck that it's accurate.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:07

Well, no, no, and no, I said I said what I said in there though was like I the only one because you do you guys know Matthew Nagra?

SPEAKER_02 1:08:15

Yeah, I had him on. Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:17

So I'm like, he's the the naturopath that I've seen that like he's posting really quality evidence-based content. Um because yeah, I've I've just I get sent posts. I I used to more, I did not anymore because I I tell people not to, but people used to send me posts all the time because I would respond to them. Yeah, and then they send you more, and it it would be I I've gotten thousands of posts sent to me. Oh yeah, is this true? What do you think about this? And like through social media, and and never one time has a post been accurate. It has been like not a single time has someone asked me if something was true, and I went and like looked at it, I was like, oh yeah, that's good information. Like it's not once, and it's like out of a thousand or more than a thousand times, I'm like, man, uh people know, you know, and just like what you said, when you're skeptical of it, yeah, yeah, you want to believe it because it maybe it sounds good or you know, whatever, but um the the the what what I just said earlier, like what works in nutrition is it's boring, like unfortunately, it's like boring and simple and and and the thing that most people who are who are really successful with their nutrition, they eat the same stuff almost every day, and it's really boring and it's not exciting, and it's not these uh Instagrammable meals and and all of that. Like I eat a smoothie, I have a smoothie for the last 15 years. I've had one pretty much every day for breakfast. I barely change it. Um and and that's the hat like that's what real sustainability with nutrition looks like is like boring, simple habits that just nail the things that matter, and that's not social media friendly, that's not what people want to hear, that you know it's not it's not the exciting way to be healthy long term, but you know, it's this shouldn't be something that consumes your life, like nutrition. It should just be something that you build some good habits around that improve your life and that it help you to like live the life that you want.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:16

Mm-hmm. Okay, this is an amazing conversation. Um, if you could give us our listeners three of the most the biggest levers for blood sugar control or for insulin resistance to take away from this conversation, what would those three be?

SPEAKER_00 1:10:32

So um exercise, like I said. And so I don't know if we're gonna separate like resistance training and cardio. If we're separating those, that would be two of the three. Um but if they're together, then that's the main one is like just exercise. Um uh outside of exercise, and we didn't talk about this, but like they're building an active lifestyle is different than exercise. So, like exercise is what you do the hour or you know, four or five days a week or however often you do it. Yeah, um, an active lifestyle is what you're doing, all the movement that you're doing outside of that, and that's like the walks after your meals, that's walking your dog, that's you know, doing your dishes, your laundry, washing your car, uh cleaning your house, like everything that you're doing that's just moving. And the more of that you do is like really, really important too. And so that side of it, like we a lot of people don't look at that as like as important as exercise, but that can actually have just as big of an impact on blood sugar control as the exercise if you're like moving around all day and just have an active lifestyle. So I'd say exercise and then that, and then uh with nutrition, and a lot of people don't want to hear this, um, but it's calorie intake and not gaining too much of body fat. Like the biggest lever by far for improving insulin resistance is calorie intake. Like it's you're carrying too much body fat, you're losing a little bit of body fat, and it's like doesn't take a lot for a lot of people with like five percent of your body weight, so like 200 pounds, like 10 pounds will significantly improve insulin sensitivity. Um, and so uh that's the biggest one. Um and then with nutrition, outside of that it's like mostly whole foods, you know, protein, fiber, you know, all the same basics that are important for everything are important for blood sugar control. Um I'd say the thing that really matters the most that's gonna like regulate things is like the exercise and movement side of it because that's what like it just gives you more wiggle room too. Like for example, like I'm you know, I'm 200 pounds and I, you know, I have a decent amount of muscle mass and I'm pretty active. And if I go eat a lot of food, my blood sugar control isn't gonna go too crazy because I just I have a lot of um like I'm have a lot of energy flux because of because of the more active lifestyle. And so that's another big one too, because I see a lot of people too, like they're trying to like they're trying to maintain a lower body, you know, or or like a healthy uh, you know, body composition and they're just eating less and less and less. And it's like you if you build up your activity level to eat more and you don't have to like uh you know starve yourself so much. And and uh part of that is you know building some muscle over time as well with the the resistance training because you know if you're a little bit more active, you eat a little bit more in your resistance training, you're gonna build up a little bit of muscle over time, and that's gonna improve your metabolism, your body, your blood sugar control, and everything else. And it just makes it easier uh to because you know when you build muscle, it makes it easier to stay leaner. It makes it easier to keep a lower body fat percentage. So so it's just you know makes it easier overall when you're just a little bit more active in in you know eating the right amount.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:35

One last question, just on that last topic when you were talking about calorie intake. I do wonder like if somebody loves sweets or like they just have like a sugar tooth or I guess sweet tooth, but they like sugar. Um if they overall eat a normal amount of calories for their body, they are exercising, they're sleeping, they're doing all the things, is that okay then to still have like a donut or like a dessert every day after dinner?

SPEAKER_00 1:14:00

Yeah, yeah, for sure. I would usually recommend um kind of going towards you know the lower calorie, lower sugar, you know, sugar alternative options if they're available. But yeah, it doesn't. If you're if your calories and if you had a donut every single day, but your calories and protein, I mean, it's kind of my diet, like most of the time. Like I have a I have you know 20% of my diet is just like whatever I feel like eating for the most part, unless I'm trying to like lose body fat, which is rarely the case, but um, yeah, you it it won't impact your metabolism really at all, as long as your nutrition is is good there. But I would I would say for most people it's better to like let's say for example you liked ice cream, there's all these new ice creams that have like you know 120 calories per serving, which is like half of what normal ice creams do, plus like 10-15 grams of protein. And so like the ice cream is like a protein bar now, and it tastes doesn't taste as good um as a normal ice cream, but it's pretty close. And it's like um I I would recommend those things because they just make it easier. And a lot of people are like, oh, the chemicals and these things, and it's it's not your whole diet, and and it's you know, you're using it as a tool to enjoy something without you know going overboard and and overeating. Because at the end of the day with nutrition, like overeating is probably the worst thing. Like that's probably the thing that has the biggest negative impact long term is excess calorie intake because that's gonna lead to fat accumulation and it happens very like it happens, you know, you're eating 200 extra calories a day, and that that's gonna lead to a a lot of fat gain over the course of your lifetime, and a lot of people don't realize that. And so um that's the side of it where we just have to learn how to build habits that ensure that that doesn't occur so that you know you can age and you know, not you don't have to I'm not a fan of like the skinny under eating frailty side of things, but making sure that you're fueling yourself properly so that you're eating enough, but not overeating, so that throughout your lifetime you're not gaining weight. Because that's a that's the thing that's gonna affect metabolic health more than anything else, is that that uh excess energy that will accumulate is fat, but will also accumulate in your muscles and liver and everywhere else and will block insulin signaling and and cause that insulin resistance.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:19

Love it. Tell us where our listeners can follow you, can read your I don't do you have blogs? No.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:26

So I have a sub stack, but I have it uh published on it. I I I want to convert all my podcasts to my substack, but I'm like, it's a task that I'm like, yeah, yeah. But uh I will soon. But I have a a podcast called the Nutrition Science Podcast. I have a substack um as well. I don't even know what the substack's called, probably the nutrition science substack. Um but uh and then social media on Instagram uh at Dr. Adrian Chubb is where I'm most active.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:54

Awesome. Thank you so much for coming on today.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:57

Yeah, thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:58

Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:05

Thanks for listening to Girls Gone Wellness. If this episode made you feel sane, smarter, or just a little less alone on your wellness journey, send it to a friend or take us on Instagram at Girls Gone Wellness Podcast.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:17

Before you go, take a second to leave us a review. It helps more than you know, and it helps more women like you find their way to wellness that actually works. If you want more, head to girlsgone wellness podcast.com to be the first to know of a new episode, exclusive merch drop, and everything we're building behind the scenes. Because feeling good in your body shouldn't feel like a full-time job. It should feel rounded, confident, and maybe even a little sexy too.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:41

We'll see you next week. Until then, trust your body, question the noise, and don't let anyone tell you you need fixing. This is wellness on your turn.