The Motherhood Mentor

Navigating Grief, diagnoses, and uncertainty in Motherhood with Camille Leak 

• Rebecca Dollard: Somatic Mind-Body Life Coach, Enneagram Coach, Speaker, Boundaries Coach, Mindset • Season 1 • Episode 13

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Join me and my guest host Camille Leak as we deep dive into how to carry grief, uncertainty, and watching our children struggle in motherhood. 

Grappling with fears, uncertainties, and the sheer weight of love, Camille discovered pathways that help navigate the complexities of her role as a mom. In an intimate chat with Camille, a diversity, equity, and inclusion facilitator, we share her poignant story of motherhood. She shares about her daughter's heart condition and likely Down syndrome diagnosis and how somatic experiencing has become a lifeline amid the storm for her in motherhood. 

We journey through the nuances of raising kids, confronting the pain and anxiety that lurks beneath parental hopes and society's gaze. Camille's candor sheds light on the struggle against shame and toxic positivity, teaching us the art of staying grounded in the present while acknowledging a spectrum of emotions. This episode is an ode to the courage of mothers everywhere, courage that's tested in the face of adversity, but also one that's strengthened by self-compassion and the audacity to feel deeply. Camille teaches us how she felt and found safety even in moments and seasons where it would have been easy to live in fear and constriction, bracing for future pain and griefs. 

Discover through Camille's experiences how motherhood's vulnerabilities can be met with resilience. We discuss self-care in the face of a child's medical diagnoses and the significance of self-attunement for sustaining our capacity to care. The conversation further delves into the emotional rollercoasters of motherhood, the fluctuating tides of grief, and the empowerment found in acknowledging life's inherent uncertainties. 

This episode is an invitation to embrace our shared humanity, to find solace in our boundaries, and to engage with our children's experiences from a place of presence and embodied wisdom. Join us as we navigate the sometimes tumultuous, always transformative journey of motherhood.

About Camille: 
Camille Leak (she/her) is a Diversity, Equity & Inclusion (DEI) Facilitator and a Somatic Practitioner. 

Via her practice, Real Talk & Brave Spaces, she provides group facilitation, workshops, and one-on-one coaching about a variety of DEI topics, cultivating spaces where individuals and groups can fearlessly confront the most uncomfortable elements of DEI. 

Additionally, Camille is the Community Manager of Holistic Life Navigation, a company and community that serves to support people as they recover from stress and trauma by listening to their bodies, i.e. Somatic Experiencing. 

She got into trauma recovery, facilitation and community management because she loves asking people questions that help them reach that “a-ha!” moment.

Where to find Camille:
 Real Talk Brave Spaces
Holistic Life Navigation
Linkedin
Instagram



Join us next time as we continue to explore the multifaceted journey of motherhood.

Thank you for tuning in to The Motherhood Mentor. If you enjoyed this episode, don't forget to subscribe, rate, and review us.

Stay connected with us on social media and share your thoughts and experiences tagging @themotherhoodmentor

Speaker 1:

Welcome to the Motherhood Mentor Podcast. I'm Becca, a holistic life coach, mom of two wife and business owner. This is a podcast where we will have conversations and coaching around all things strategy and healing that supports both who you are and what you do. So grab your iced coffee or whatever weird health beverage you are currently into and let's do the damn thing. Welcome to today's episode of the Motherhood Mentor Podcast.

Speaker 1:

I am so excited for my guest today. Today I have Camille with me and I met her through the Holistic Life Navigation. I got to be in several groups where I really got to hear so much wisdom, so much funny insight into life and motherhood, and I wanted to have her on the podcast today to talk about her recent new motherhood adventures and just how they've impacted her and how she's navigated through them. So a little bit about Camille. She is a diversity, equity and inclusion facilitator, as well as the community manager for Holistic Life Navigation, so thank you so much for being here today. We have Khadijah over here with us too, so you might hear her in the background. I am so excited to have you here. Would you just share a little bit about you and especially about what's been going on in your world?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, I'll just continue to orient folks. Yeah, khadijah, my one-year-old, is right here next to me, so, like Becca said, you may hear her chime in from time to time, as this is very much her story as well. So, yeah, I, like I said, khadijah is one, and so a little more than a year ago, while Khadijah was still in utero, I found out that she was going to be born with a heart condition that would need to be repaired, with at least one operation within the first year of her life, and in addition to that, she more than likely also had trisomy 21 or Down syndrome. So that was first just something that I really wanted to give myself time and space to be with, because, even though I had already had two children prior to her, this was going to be different.

Speaker 2:

For me, this is going to be new, and one of the things I really appreciated, or one of the things I really like to say, is that I think things tend to come into your life when you are able to be with them, because, with somatic experiencing, having used it for my own well-being and support, but also then as a teacher and facilitator for others, it was really, really critical in helping me begin to notice, even while she was in utero, what was coming up in my body and the idea of caring for a child with trisomy 21 and a heart condition, and there was a lot of fear, there was a lot of trepidation, and there was also a lot of knowing, a lot of through the somatic work, a lot of things that allowed me to come back into the now and be with the fact that she was actually okay in utero and really learning to be present.

Speaker 2:

And so one of the things that was really important for me again, even while she was still in utero, was being aware of my boundaries, my capacity, and giving myself the flexibility to say no or even more importantly than no, like I don't know, cause I didn't know what my year was going to be like. You know, it's really unpredictable when you have an infant in general, let alone an infant who's going to have at least one open heart surgery, possibly multiple ones, and so I was in a place where, like I would want to commit to things, but I knew I couldn't, or my, and there was this part of me that's like I don't know. How am I going to tell people I don't know. And I got to a point where I just got comfortable telling people I don't know and if they were in a place where they were comfortable with that, where they needed that security or that predictability, and it just meant we weren't made to work with each other that year.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, there's, there's so much there. Will you share for you? So, for people who aren't super familiar with somatic experiencing, they're probably becoming a little bit more aware of it, hopefully through the podcast. But what? What did it look like to let that fear come up in you and through you? What did it feel like to feel both of those things and to be present?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, no, happy to talk about that Cause it's still like really salient in my mind. I remember first getting the news like I was there for my 20 week ultrasound and the technician or the doctor says you know, she has this heart condition and more than likely also has trisomy 21. And then I start talking with the geneticists, also at that same appointment, and so it was just a lot. And then I start talking with the geneticists, also at that same appointment, and so it was just a lot, and I remember being in freeze while I was in, while I was talking with both of them and sort of functional freeze where I was still like receiving information and trying to process everything that they were telling me and they were laying out all these different options, choices, things like that. And then I remember coming home that evening and still being in a little bit of freeze but relaying to my husband everything that had been shared with me. And then it was later that evening, like after my older two kids had gone to bed. I think my husband was off somewhere reading. I was just alone in my room in the dark and I remember I think it was like maybe not a full moon, but I remember seeing the moon and I just let everything come up. That was that was sort of percolating there underneath the surface, and part of the reason I felt comfortable doing that was one I felt like sort of held in my room you know, it was my bed, also, I'm sort of a night moon kind of person but also the knowing that with whatever, whatever came up with somatic experiencing, I had the capacity to be with it. That is I know what.

Speaker 2:

To your to your question like with somatic experiencing, you learn to disidentify with your sensations. You learn to witness them as a part of you, not all of you. So, for example, I'm not sad. My, I might feel sadness in my chest, but my legs actually feel pretty happy or something like that. So I let whatever sort of angst was bubbling on the surface just come up can't come up, and it was a lot. There was a lot like in my chest, in my throat. There was just all of this constriction.

Speaker 2:

I remember it just feeling like this cave that was going inward. It was just all of this constriction. I remember it just being like this, this cave that was that was going inward. It was just this sort of writhing and the words that came up were just like you know who the fuck? Am I to take care of a kid with trisomy 21 or a heart condition? I'm going to screw this kid up, or not? Even just society, oh my God, what is society going to do this child? I don't know. I've already brought two children into this world who are Black and I'm trying to prepare them to navigate a world where racism is present.

Speaker 2:

And there was all these things and it was just like this caving in, this not knowing and this fear that I wouldn't be able to hold them, to prepare them and to protect them. And, like you said, part of somatic experiencing is just learning to be with it. I didn't try to convince that part of me that that wasn't true or that it shouldn't feel that way. And as all this is coming up, there was tears, there was gasping and again just giving that space to be felt, seen and heard.

Speaker 2:

And then, after a little bit of time, I also decided to check in and notice what part of my body wasn't caving in, what part of my body wasn't having this sort of angst, jittery feeling, and I distinctly remember it just being on the outsides of, like my arms and down the sides of my legs, and it was just like this really cool feeling, and then the image that came to mind was just like sort of a settled ocean, and it just took a couple of moments to breathe into those parts of my body, to breathe in parts of my body that were really settled in that moment, that were really cool, and the words that came up were just like we've done this before, because I went through something similar with my first child.

Speaker 2:

There was some angst about choosing to bring a Black child into the world, knowing that they would have to go through. My second child got diagnosed with autism at the age of two and a half, and so there was some angst around that, like how to help him navigate a world where people wouldn't always understand him or try to fix him. And so there was just this part of me that said you know, we've done this before and we can do it again.

Speaker 1:

I just, I love hearing you, you, I, I could just hear you describe your experience, remember, I just want to say here, like, tell me more. I love just hearing that experience of being able to be with it and let it all come up. And and I just I noticed this thread of like there's not shame there, how immobilizing shame is of you know, I'll witness women go through these similar experiences, or myself and different experiences, where it's like you're having this experience and you have this response of freezing or even this numbness or this too much or this overwhelm, and then there's this shame that comes and has you over associating yourself with the experience that you're having and then, like witnessing what you're doing and like coming down on it with all of this judgment of you shouldn't feel this way or trying not to feel that way, right, kind of this, I guess, to put a, I hate sometimes labels just like don't, I don't love them, but like toxic positivity comes up to me of like I shouldn't feel this way or this like paralyzing.

Speaker 1:

I'm going into this place where I only feel fear and this like overwhelm, versus this witnessing. I feel a lot of different things. I'm having this experience and noticing those different parts of you and the fullness of you. I just there was so much presence with self. That's one of those things that I'm hearing from your story is that you were so present with the experience that you were having and you were staying very present with your current experience. Like I hear you like what's this going to look like?

Speaker 1:

And I think so often in motherhood, so much anxiety comes from our we have this idea that we could possibly control the outcome. Sometimes and I think I think every mom has an experience where the rug is pulled out of her. Her kid gets a diagnosis, she gets a diagnosis, something happens in her marriage, something happens in the world where all of a sudden she was like shit. It doesn't matter how good I do this hard, bad things you know bad in quotations can happen, will happen, are happening. Yeah, what does it look like to be present with yourself? What did it look like for you to continue being present and allowing your experience through this whole last year where hard things do and did happen right?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, no, you're absolutely right. Like you know, in general and then specifically as parents and moms, we go to. Well, what if this happens? Or can I? Can I do this to to make sure that this doesn't happen?

Speaker 2:

And even again, even while she was still in utero, what I found really supportive was a somatic practice of coming back to the present. So, for example, even when it came to her heart condition, her heart condition was such that, you know, she basically had a hole in her heart where the four chambers in the heart didn't actually have the chambers, like the walls weren't complete. There was a hole. So what that fundamentally meant is that the oxygenated blood would be mixing with the deoxygenated blood, which is bad. We want to keep them separate for various reasons in the body so that things circulate as they need.

Speaker 2:

But one of the things that helped me while she was still in utero is that her heart condition isn't a condition right now because she's not breathing oxygen. It's not an issue right now, in this moment, she's actually perfectly fine as it relates to her heart. It's only going to become an issue once she actually starts breathing oxygen. So, if I can at least attune for right now, in this moment, as it relates to our heart, nothing bad is happening to her. And then I just take a couple of moments to notice, like what parts of me could really attune to that, what parts of me expanded or softened into that reality, into that present. And it's not to say that you know, my body and mind wouldn't wander to the present again, but it's just a noticing when that happens, acknowledging. And then what is she experiencing right now, in this moment? She's in my belly, safe and sound, and she's not breathing oxygen. It's not really an issue.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and you're not bypassing that fear or that anxiety, and I think that's so powerful because I think so many women they have fear or anxiety and the way that they're trying to regulate it is by bypassing it is by like no, pretend that everything is fine and oftentimes like no, everything's maybe not fine in the moment, or you're very aware that there's an actual outcome that like doesn't tangibly feel okay to part of you. Learning to feel doesn't tangibly feel okay to part of you. Learning to feel, like you said, attuning to the safety that is right now, or the safety even that could be, without bypassing or like overriding the reality of your life, because I think that is what so often sends people into shame and spiraling and that's, I think, a lot of times what paralyzes us when we're anxious or fearful.

Speaker 2:

Well, absolutely. I mean, it's kind of like what you were talking about before. There's the bypassing, which for me is like when we focus only on the positive, you know, like let's notice what we feel good about or let's notice the happy thoughts, and then on the other side they're sort of like being traumatized when we only attune to the negative, where we only focus on quote unquote bad thoughts or bad things that are happening. With somatic experiencing. I love that part of its teaching is about holding both, being with the reality of both. Can I have awareness of both of these things happening right now? So, yes, when Khadijah starts breathing oxygen, her heart condition does become a condition. At that point, that is a reality, and what's also a reality is that she's not breathing oxygen right now. So I can hold both of those, and it's not about bypassing or warring either one or the other.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. So what about when you were in those moments of reality where, like, the reality wasn't?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, we'll use good and bad, I don't love the words good and bad, but the no, no, but yeah, yeah, yeah, these titles that most of us would agree like I don't want to feel good about my baby struggling or my baby at risk.

Speaker 1:

Like, yeah, those are the most, I think, for so many women. We get into motherhood and we realize like it feels, like at least my experience is like those moments. You look at it and you're like this could break me.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I have that experience of like this could be the thing that literally rips my heart out of my chest. How could I possibly survive this? You're you're going through something that feels so traumatic that you don't know how you could ever possibly be okay again. Yeah, what does it look like in those moments for you?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so, um, khadijah was born and her birth was was fine. No, no big things there, um, but about four weeks in into her life, um, she was diagnosed as failure to thrive. She wasn't putting putting on weight because she was going into heart failure. So we get readmitted into the NICU and over the course of two weeks there's this back and forth between can they support her without surgery options, and then others would say, no, we got to do surgery, and it was just sort of this back and forth somewhat tumultuous, because we didn't know exactly what was going to be done or when it was going to be done. That was a lot to be with, because it was me and her. It was me and Khadijah living in the NICU, away from my husband and my other two children, for two weeks. And I will say what was also really fascinating about that time is that it still wasn't the worst time in my life and that it was funny.

Speaker 2:

I would get calls from people while we were living in the hospital and they would say you look good. I was like, oh, thank you, um. And part of the reason was, yeah, did I miss my husband? Did I miss my kids? Yes, that was very true. And again, what was also true, I had 24 hour childcare. I could take a nap whenever I wanted to. I could get food whenever I wanted to. I could go to the garden or to the chapel do some yoga whenever I want. I didn't even I didn't have to plan, I didn't have to ask anybody. I could just get up and walk out of the room. There was somebody. I never had that with my other two children, so that was something I could attune to Like. Your needs were taken care of. Yeah, ideally would I want to be in the hospital with my child right now.

Speaker 2:

No but I also have 24-hour childcare. That's something I don't have at home. Or, like I said, I love my two boys. I miss them and love them so much and I call my husband and we'd be talking and then in the background I see them jumping. I hey, mom, what's?

Speaker 2:

going on and I'm just like I love you, bye-bye. And then you know she's just sitting in her crib and we're having some nice, just very calm, feminine energy time and I was like, oh, this is nice too. So yeah, so I can hold that. It was actually kind of nice.

Speaker 1:

Which that in and of itself is really powerful of being able to go through something that from the outside, people are like this is so traumatic.

Speaker 1:

But I think this goes to show the power of somatic work for me, because I've walked through things where people are like, wow, that must be so traumatic, and I'm like yes, and like yes. This one part is and I can feel all of these other parts there's this perspective that comes in, yes, and there's this being able to allow yourself again. There's not this judgment, there's not this shame Cause I think for a lot of women, like that sneaks into every experience for so many women and I'm just like this is it was lighting me up when I heard you talking about this, because I think so many women I love the permission of being able to feel really good and allow yourself to have that, because so many women don't feel that permission and I think that's a big part of why I want to share stories is like there's a lot of permission for what you experience, so you're in this experience that could be traumatic. Parts of it are yeah absolutely.

Speaker 2:

Absolutely so. And actually one other thing I'll just say to your point one of the things that helped me, like you were saying, was not bypassing or ignoring the part of me that wanted to be home with my husband and the kids, the part of me that wanted to be in my bed. I can acknowledge that and be with that, and also acknowledge the part that was just like, oh, it's kind of nice not being home. And to your point, like the idea of shame and judgment could come up. If I either judge myself for you shouldn't be happy, you shouldn't be enjoying the hospital, you should be miserable, or, conversely, another form of judgment would be you shouldn't have to be in the hospital, you and Khadijah shouldn't have to be experiencing that. If I had that ingrained, uh, or attuned solely to that belief, if I believe, like I couldn't be happy unless we were out of the hospital, I absolutely wouldn't be happy unless we were out of the hospital. If I believe, like I, couldn't be happy unless we were out of the hospital, I absolutely wouldn't be happy unless we were out of the hospital, well, I believe that my happiness, my sense of peace, my sense of contingent, my sense of contentment was contingent on us not being in the hospital. That's exactly what was going to happen. Now, you know I don't want to make it all gumdrops and roses here because, yeah, you know, things progressed Eventually got to a point where doctors decided, yes, she does need to have surgery.

Speaker 2:

So she's about five, six weeks old at this point and going to have open heart surgery, which is a lot to be with. She has surgery, surgery itself is totally fine, but at about 48 hours into her recovery, she goes into cardiac arrest because she starts to experience some internal bleeding. And I'm in the room while this happens. And then for the next 30 minutes I watch as doctors and nurses work to revive and resuscitate her. And that, even that container of 30 minutes, was a lot to be with. Because they asked me. They said do you want to stay here and watch? Do you want to go to the waiting room? And I decided for myself that it would be better for me to sit there and watch, because in that moment I said you know, if this is, if this is her time to transition from this state of being to the next, I want to be here with her, versus I felt like if I was sitting in the room. That would have actually caused me more anxiety and I would just been even more nervous. So I chose to stay and watch, and it was the most activating, adrenalizing experience of my life, because there was absolutely nothing for me to do in that moment except sit and watch. Do in that moment except sit and watch.

Speaker 2:

And one of the things that was that got me through it was, again another somatic practice of recognizing that, as I'm watching her, as I'm watching them working on her, the activation in my body is rising, rising, rising to a point that it's starting to reach overwhelm.

Speaker 2:

And it was getting to a point where I knew like I'm, I could, I might pass out, faint or get like really hysterical, yeah. And when I felt that happening, I actually had to stop attuning to her. I had to come back into my body. I had to be with the fact that I'm not dying right now. I'm sitting in this chair. If I need to faint, I can. The chair will catch me. I can feel my feet on the floor, I'm okay. And as I did that, as I felt my body start to regulate a little bit, then I could take my attention back to her and then I would go through that, that process, that pendulating that ebb and flow, and then I would go through that process, that pendulating that ebb and flow, throughout the 30 minutes. And even as I say that, I know that sounds really cold. Your daughter is potentially dying in front of you and you take your attention away from her to you. But for me, I realized in that moment.

Speaker 1:

that's exactly what I had to do in order for me to remain present with her. Yeah, I'm just sitting with like the intensity of what that experience must have been like for you, and even just hearing you talk about it and even just recognizing like, oh my gosh, it's a year later. You're probably coming back up on, you know at at least for me. Not everyone's an anniversary person, but a lot of times I feel like my body knows anniversaries before I do. Yeah, all of a sudden, I'll like notice something, and then I'll check the calendar and I'm like, ah, now I see, but it's so.

Speaker 1:

I think there's nothing harder, nothing more that has like caused my heart to feel like it's breaking or for me to feel like I'm coming out of my skin, than when your baby is suffering or literally in your case, literally dying, possibly Right, and there's nothing you can do, there's nothing to help with. And I think what you shared is such a beautiful example of motherly love and healthy motherly love, because I think in this very dramatic experience, it'd be easy to say, well, attention on her. And as parents. I don't know if this has been your experience as well, but I have realized that in some of the most intense moments of my children's lives, I have to attune back to myself so that there is a self to be there for them, because if I'm only attuning to them now, they've lost me. The reality of me attuning to them only means that they have lost me.

Speaker 1:

And especially in early motherhood and in my anxiety, before I had somatic experiencing, before I understood how to feel myself and come back to myself of, yes, I'm very attuned to my babies, but I also have to be attuned to myself. I also have to be able to feel my seat, feel my grounding, feel my overwhelm, because I have to be the one who takes care of that or I can't take care of them. Like it's just nature that in order to be a mother, we have to be a self. We cannot just attune to the baby. So I'm, you know. I know how this story ends. Obviously, people fully are like oh, yes, she's a year old.

Speaker 1:

She's five, so I feel like it'd be really good to like I want to kind of not finish the story but to have you share what happens from there and then like there's a couple pieces that I'd love to go back and kind of like play with. But absolutely, absolutely, what did that look like? In those moments you come back to yourself, find yourself is that what makes you able to stay present and in the room? Would you still feel? Does it still feel traumatic for you? Would you use that language or Um, I wouldn't.

Speaker 2:

The event itself could. I guess you could describe it as traumatic, but I won't say that I'm traumatized by it, that is, I don't feel stuck in that moment. Um, yeah, uh, I still, you know, like have over couplings or you know associations related to it, like you were talking about holidays. So I can tell you that she went into cardiac acarist 1030 AM the Friday before Memorial day and the reason I can remember that is because after they resuscitate her she had to be put. She was put on a ventilator and she was also put on a heart bypass machine. So she's put on two machines, one to breathe for her, the other to beat her heart for her. And in particular, the heart bypass machine was the signal that it was still like a little, it was still touch and go, cause again, this, this machine, is beating her heart for her, to give her space to try to recuperate and let her muscles get stronger. And she was on that heart bypass machine for the four days of Memorial Day weekend, so that Friday, saturday, sunday, monday. And I remember it because I was talking with the doctors and at one point I said to one of the doctors or he may have said like I know, these last couple of days have been a lot. They've been really long. I said, yeah, I've always thought about Memorial Day weekend going by so quickly. You know, it being a four-day weekend, it seems like it goes by in no time. That was the longest four-day weekend of my life and I fully anticipate, with Memorial Day weekend coming up, that there will be parts of my body that still respond to that and I'm giving space for that to happen. But, yeah, so, like I was saying, she was on a ventilator, she was on a heart bypass machine for four days. Tuesday morning she was able to start beating her heart on her own. She did have to stay on the ventilator for a couple of weeks and for the next six weeks or so there was.

Speaker 2:

She stayed in the NICU as she continued to recover and there were, quote unquote, like ups and downs in terms of her recovery. At one point there was a collapsed lung, at one point she started having seizures and so there you know, it wasn't like it was a straight line, a linear line to her healing, to, to, to her healing, and that was another part for me to begin to be with the fact that, you know, waking up every day. We just we didn't know what her body was going to be doing. As much as I want to say, okay, so what's going to happen next? And if this happens, then we know that this is going to happen. And I really appreciate the doctors because all their answers were always well, it depends, because they didn't know. They didn't know what her body was going to do and so it was.

Speaker 2:

It was a practice in being with the, the unpredictability of it, all, um, and just allowing what would come up in my body at wanting to know or the desire to know, um, and being with whatever sort of frustration and anger might come up, and then whatever sort of grief was happening. And you know, there was still judgment in me, like I remember at one point there was this I would sort of like allow myself to go to the chapel and like wail and moan and groan when that, when that would come up, and then there would be a part of me that judged it and said you're supposed to be a somatic experiencing practitioner, you're so full of shit here you are getting caught. But, experiencing practitioner, you're so full of shit here you are getting caught. But I could still like witness this Like I knew that wasn't me. It was a part of me, and so it was just interesting to watch all of this play out over over the weeks during her recovery after the cardiac arrest.

Speaker 1:

Well, and just that, I think. Another thing in motherhood that so many women again, I think it's this carpet being pulled out of you for so many of I want there to be an answer. I want there to be an end date, I want there to be this predictability and I want to be the one who controls that right or somatic work we could do, that like somehow brings us out of the human experience of the reality of like well, guess what? We don't know when this ends. If it ends, does it end? Like? Life does not end. Life keeps happening to us, Whether we know. This is the thing that we're in. We want it to be over, and yet you were able to be with that part of you that was uncomfortable with the unpredictability versus, I think so often we try to make ourselves feel better and that's what makes us feel worse.

Speaker 1:

Or we need to feel better, and that's what makes us feel worse. If we could just feel shitty or overwhelmed or upset, upset or angry or grieving, that feels a lot easier. Not, it doesn't feel comfortable.

Speaker 2:

That's the difference?

Speaker 1:

It doesn't feel comfortable.

Speaker 2:

It's not comfortable.

Speaker 1:

Cause I think I get a question a lot from people of like when they're working with me and coaching, and especially even somatic coaching. Of like, well, when am I going to feel better? They're, they're still searching for this.

Speaker 1:

When is it going to be over? And I like lovingly look at them and I'm like it's not, like like I'm still going through this shit, like all of the people, like you're still going to go through shit, but now you're going to be able to have this way to go through it without so much suffering. You're also going to be able to be present and attuned to your kids and to your joy and safety, and that's what makes it different. It's not necessarily easier always. You're not always comfortable, but it's so different.

Speaker 2:

It's so different. And it was funny because I actually began to find a lot of support in not knowing and not needing to know when we were going to get out of the hospital, like everybody else wanted to know. Our relatives and of course our sons, say like when are you coming home? And I would just say I don't know, I don't know. And it freaked everyone else out because of course you know they want those end dates. But I actually began to find it really helpful, you know, releasing that.

Speaker 2:

So if it's not about, if it's not about us getting out of the hospital, if I release the again, like the idea, well, things can only be good once we're out of the hospital. It then allows me to notice, like what, what am I experiencing right now? So, for example, I distinctly remember like there was one day, maybe a day or two, after she had come off the heart bypass machine. She was still ventilated, but she had started to become a bit more conscious and aware and it could have been really easy for me to be like when are we going to get out? When is she going to get the ventilator off of her? When does that mean? You know X, y, z, but in that moment she was squeezing my finger. She hadn't squeezed my finger for five days, so it was really nice to just be with the fact like right now she's squeezing my finger. I don't know what this means, I don't know what's going to happen afterwards, but right now she's squeezing my finger and I want to be here with her as she squeezes my finger.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, you created capacity to be with the unknown. You created capacity to be with so much, and I think that word capacity we love it so much. Yeah, holistic life navigation groups, we love that word, but it's so you have capacity to be with your and other people's human experience. It's like you can be with it and still feel yourself, still feel the room, still feel the sunshine and also the dark clouds, like you are able to be with it. And I think that's what so many people are looking for is capacity. But they think it's this like before and after, like all of a sudden it's going to be better and it's like, well, it might, sometimes it'll be better, sometimes it'll be worse, but you'll have capacity for the full range of that experience.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah. And again I say like things happen, at least for when I'm ready for them, cause I was saying like with my older son I actually had to do a little bit of work. There was a period when he was about nine months old, I found myself just experiencing these massive waves of guilt. At first I didn't even know they were guilt. I just felt these massive waves of sensation. I'd start crying. I was like, is this postpartum depression? I don't know what it is. And then I came to realize it was guilt. I felt guilty for bringing a Black child into this world, knowing what they were going to have to experience. There had been a spike in Black Americans being profiled, taken into custody or even killed, and I think there was a lot of guilt in my body coming up with that. And I realized what I was fundamentally felt guilty for. What my body was orienting to was the fact that I very well could get a call one day that says, hey, malcolm's been shot. He's been killed.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and the practice I chose to do I'm not saying that this is right for everyone is I chose to be with that reality. The fact is that very well could happen. That is a reality of my life, his life. And so I sat with that Like what would I do if I got that phone call? And I walked through what I would experience, Like I imagine, as I got the call, I'd probably drop to my knees and sob.

Speaker 2:

Then I'd need to call his dad. We would need to go identify his body. We'd have to start planning a funeral. It'd probably be a mess. I don't know if I could actually look at my other son, Jamal. And so I'm walking through all these emotions and we actually have the funeral. And then what about a week after the funeral? What about two weeks a month? And I'm walking through all these different stages and again, as cold as it can sound, I came to this realization that I would mourn Malcolm, I would miss him, I would grieve what I thought he and I were supposed to have with each other and I was still going to be okay. And having that realization with him was really supportive in my experience with Khadijah, in that there was the very real possibility still is, quite frankly, that she could die before quote unquote. She's supposed to yeah, and even if that happens I will be okay.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, thank you for sharing that part of your story. When I, when I was in very early motherhood, I had very high anxiety with my daughter, part of it was probably like postpartum hormonal like depression and anxiety, and part of that was I had the rug pulled out of me, a little bit of like it doesn't matter what I do, something bad could happen to her. And I had started going through some really intense trauma healing for myself for things that had happened when I was very little, and so I started having this remembering of like oh yes, these things happen to people and I had to, I think for a while I gripped the control of how do I prevent it or protect it and like that just made it worse and I think that's what so many women we, we death grip it as mothers I was like well, we're even taught to to a point sorry to interrupt you, but like one of the things that I realized, like I was like watching this movie and it's not anything I had hadn't heard anyone say before.

Speaker 2:

But you know, this mother is is burying her child. And then someone comes up to console her and rubs her on the back and says nobody, no, no mother should have to bury their child. And for whatever reason it came into my head it's like why not? Like, if we didn't have that notion, if we didn't have that belief that no person should, no parent should, ever have to bury their child, you can have that judgment, that attachment, maybe it wouldn't be so difficult.

Speaker 1:

I love that you cut in with that, because I totally agree, because I think there's this massive over coupling in our culture that if we just parent correctly we can prevent us or our kids from going through physical, mental, emotional harm. And the way that we can solve that is by death gripping harder and harder and harder. And moms are so fucking anxious and I mean like every mom, from moms who have kids who have medical conditions to moms who have kids who, by all of the charts, look perfectly healthy and they're still terrified their child's going to die during the night. Because our culture has taught us that somehow if we just follow the rules we'll make it out alive. And I have this thing that comes up in my body, so strong of none of us make it out alive, and that sounds so dark and twisty and yet that actually feels so relieving when my body can orient to like I'm not God, so I don't have to play God anymore. I get to just be a mama. I get to just be present with these kids that I have, with this day that I have.

Speaker 1:

It's Monday right, like last week, like I used to have so much anxiety when me or my kids would get sick and now it's like, okay, we're sick and without that over coupling it's so much not comfortable, not great. There's still. There's still this like humanity hurts, humanity fucking hurts. It would, I mean, it destroys you. When your kids make it, it would destroy you. If your kids don't make it, it would destroy you.

Speaker 1:

I mean there's all of these unknowns in motherhood, right, like your kid might be perfectly healthy and then all of a sudden they start having something that wasn't known, that wasn't seen. Maybe something happens to them. I mean, I mean, this happened car accident, things happen. And I think mothers, mothers, have been given this false over coupling that somehow to be a good mother is to keep your child from these things. Yeah, and it's quite literally impossible.

Speaker 1:

But no one's naming that. We're just saying like wait, but here's the things that you can do prevent it. And I'm not, neither of us are saying we throw out wisdom, we throw out intellect, we throw out making good decisions about what you're doing with your kids and the humanity has to come back to it. The humanity of this hurts. It hurts to be human, it hurts to be a mother, it hurts to be a child and there are things in our bodies and our souls that hurt, that are hard, but how do we create capacity for that again? And that's what I love about somatics People are like, ooh, this new thing, somatics. I'm like it's not new. I think we just finally are coming back to language of what's already been there forever, are coming back to language of what's already been there forever and we finally have language and practice for how to be human, how to deal with the hurt how to be present with it, how to feel it.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, totally, totally, I mean I like to again. I know I keep referencing this like things that kept preparing me to be with Khadijah, but one of the things, in addition to my oldest son, was I've given birth to three children. I've been pregnant six times, so I've had three miscarriages and my first miscarriage probably was traumatizing because of the like no woman should have to bury her child. I shouldn't, I shouldn't have to have a miscarriage. And because I had that mentality, because I had that belief that, over coupling, that was a really difficult thing to be with A second and third miscarriage were very different experiences.

Speaker 1:

And.

Speaker 2:

I'm thankful for all of them and that they were all. All of my children have taught me something, particularly lessons in letting go, releasing expectations, releasing attachments, because, even though they didn't come to being as we traditionally think, they taught me so much. They prepared me for my experience with Khadijah. Without them, I may not have had the capacity or the learnings from them, and similarly Khadijah has. Without them, I may not have had the capacity or the learnings from them, and similarly, khadijah has taught me a lot.

Speaker 2:

Like now, the way I navigate life because of that experience with her is different. I'm constantly noticing, like where am I attaching, where are the beliefs, the shoulds? Like I shouldn't have to experience this, or I have to do it this way, or this is what it's supposed to be. And even just from a place of curiosity, if I release the notion that no parents should have to ever bury their child, or if I release the notion that this is how it's supposed to be, or this is what I should be doing or this is what I have to be doing, what is it like, just even for half a second, if I release those expectations? What does right now feel like in the absence of those expectations?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And one of the things let me know if this language resonates with you, because it's not the language that you're using, but like what I feel, like I'm hearing from you and this is something I work with clients a lot with, with somatics especially is what if we let go of all of the logical story in your head about what it should or shouldn't be, what it is, what it isn't, and we just what are you feeling and experiencing right now? And what if we just work with that? What if we just work with the pain of miscarrying a baby and you just let yourself be sad or angry or hurt or just like whatever it is you're feeling in your body, Like if we could. Our heads are so powerful and I think so many people I work with a lot of women who are like very intellectual, very smart. They want to intellectualize all their feelings and experiences, they want to solve it all and it's like we're not trying to disassociate from your head, we're just trying to reassociate with the rest of you.

Speaker 1:

The rest of your body, the emotional intelligence, the somatic intelligence of your body, because that's so much more simple, I think, when we're trying to like go through these stories of should I, shouldn't I, where, what do I need to do? What, what could I have done to prevent this? How do I prevent this? It's like what are you experiencing presently and how do you be with that?

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

And then does that give you the clarity for the decisions you have to make? Because I think so many people are like but there are things we have to do, there are decisions we have to make. How do we do the doing and the feeling at the same time? I think so many people get stuck on that point.

Speaker 2:

They do. Okay, so many things there. So first I'll just touch on this. Like one of the things that I like to notice in myself and in other people is that when we go into the cognitive, when we go into the intellectualizing, the rationalizing, I don't even think it's always like a want to, I think it's a familiarity and it's also an internal flight response.

Speaker 1:

If I go into the head.

Speaker 2:

I don't have to be with my body. I don't have to be if I'm trying to figure it out. I actually don't have to be with the hurt I'm experiencing.

Speaker 1:

I don't have to feel my chest, I don't have to feel it. I don't have to feel it.

Speaker 2:

I don't have to feel my grief, I don't have to feel my shame.

Speaker 2:

I'm trying to figure it out, taking me out of the situation Because, again, a lot of people, either consciously or unconsciously, will have the belief like I don't have the capacity to be with that thing, that thing's going to be too much, or a really big, I'll say, misconception is I'll get stuck there.

Speaker 2:

Which takes you to that question of like how do I feel while I also have to do? Of like, how do I feel while I also have to do? I found that by giving my space, my body, space to feel, to process not bypass, but to process I could then be present and then make decisions, like in my experience with Khadijah. I would be in the room I'm talking to nurses, I'm talking to doctors, they're telling me what we're going to do for the day, all those things, and I'm present, I'm aware, and then go to the chapel for a little bit and I'm going to have some time for me to wail and moan or whatever may need to come out, and then I can go back to her room and then be present for her and make decisions for her. So I think we have this idea that it's either or but it's that pendulating it's that going back and forth.

Speaker 2:

Let me take some time to feel, to feel all the feels good, bad and ugly and by processing it I'm not dwelling in it, but I'm allowing whatever wants to come up to come up and in that releasing, in that metabolizing, okay, now I can be present, now I can make a decision, now I can hear my options, I can be present for myself, I can be present for my children, I can actually release whatever sort of stories or attachments may be there and, at least for me, sort of logically weigh the different decisions, because I'm no longer trying to suppress or ignore the emotions, the sensations that were trying to come up, if that makes sense.

Speaker 1:

Oh, it makes so much sense. This is a topic that comes up a lot for moms, because they're like I don't have time and it's like, well, whether you have time or not, it's here. You either have time now or you have time later, when it's become. And I love like you're talking about the stuckness and I think what so many women are afraid of is that right now in their lives if I can use really blanket generic us motherhood so many women right now are still trying to do unstuck emotions, patterns, traumas from their childhood that when these new things are coming up, they're just like I can't, I won't, and it's like, okay, yes, you can, and there's capacity and there's ways, especially through somatic experiencing, that you can learn to be with all of it. Yes, past, present, future, self, stuff. And you you're either using energy, repressing it, disassociating from it, like it's using energy whether you're focusing on or not, but if you're not being present with it, you now have this energy in your body, in your life. That's like probably not the most healthy part of you, that part of you is going to make decisions now without you paying attention to it. So now this part of you is going to come out in your marriage, it's going to come out in your parenting, it's going to come out in your business, like it's there whether you have time or energy, logically, that you think this is valuable, and it's that's what I.

Speaker 1:

One of the things that I love about somatics is teaching women like your feelings, your experience that you're going through all humans, all humans, is valuable, and if we could just take some time for you humanity not that your humanity is getting in the way, but like I think we think our humanity is getting in the way and I'm like humanity is the point. The humanity is your life force, this humanity is your energy, this humanity is your intelligence and your wisdom, and if we can just learn how to be with it, it's actually not that exhausting, it's actually not that dramatic or traumatic. And this is coming from a woman who, like I, have a lot of feelings, all of them, so many, and I'm very sensitive to all of them. So, like my body doesn't like my body just wants to feel every little thing, and so it's like I get it, I get it and I go to those places too. But when I go to those places and I start telling myself this, this lie of I don't have time or I don't have energy.

Speaker 1:

That's when stuff starts to get exhausting and overwhelming because it's not being cared for, it's not being presenced. And sometimes you got to put a pin in it right, like when you were in that doctor's office finding things out. That probably wasn't the time for you to cry and let the tears out. It wouldn't have felt safe for you. So I always tell people like, instead of sweeping shit under the rug, like we all witness, we all see our country, we all see our family systems going, like, okay, sweeping shit under the rug, that doesn't work. And I'm like, but that doesn't mean we can't sometimes tuck things in.

Speaker 2:

Like, yeah, I like to say, you know, put it on the shelf.

Speaker 1:

And tuck it in, come back later, check on her after a nap, get her a snack, like you can still meet your needs, even if it doesn't happen in an exact moment or in a perfect way. Yes, that's a place I think we have to come to to create the capacity, because all of this is happening in normal motherhood Exactly. You had all the things going on when that was happening.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, no, I totally agree. Like, yeah, absolutely. Like I said, I like to say you know, we might need to put something on a shelf, like maybe dropping down in my feelings in the middle of target is the place where I want to do it and I can be consciously aware of like when I get home, or even in the car, I want to take a moment just to be with whatever may be coming up. But it can be really difficult because we've been taught that emotions and sensations are a distraction, they're a waste of time. They get like, just cut out the middleman and get straight to the decision-making. But for me, I find it's part of the process. For me and this may not be the best analogy being with your sensations or emotions is like wiping your ass. You got to do it. It seems like a waste of time, it seems so small and trivial. But stop wiping your ass and see what happens. Shit's going to build up, Okay. So you can either be with it or you cannot, but it's your decision.

Speaker 1:

All right, I'm laughing so hard. That is the best. And you should know one of the first things I teach clients, and it's all. It's so funny because when I have new people come in my world, I teach them this too. I'm like go pee when you have to go pee. Yes, notice, when you have to go to the bathroom and then go to the bathroom. And then, while you're going to the bathroom, use that as a reminder to check into yourself and I'll teach them when they're having trouble meeting their needs.

Speaker 1:

I'm like okay, when you're driving in the car, kids are pissing you off. It might not be the time to emotionally process that with your children. Just like, if you have to pee in the car, I'm never going to tell you okay, pee your pants in the car. I'm going to say get home, give the kids a snack, send them outside, go to the bathroom. Like, just because you can't meet that need right now doesn't mean you can't meet it later.

Speaker 1:

And also, this is why there's such a power in finding a somatic experiencing practitioner or a coach or a therapist, so that you have this place where you're going and you're saying this is my time to take that shit off the shelf, because not only am I creating a boundary of time and space and energy and attention, but I also now have someone else who can help me hold that, who can help me take it down.

Speaker 1:

And's such value in having other people, whether in even, or if it's a friend or if it's a community. Having other people with you is something that our bodies need, and there's just, there's so much that I think that moms are craving for and needing in this culture, and I think sometimes it feels overwhelming to women. They get into this over-coupled reality of motherhood and they disassociate from their own reality of motherhood and I'm like, okay, you can't solve motherhood in this current climate for everyone, but what about just you? What if we look at what you need, what you feel and what you're experiencing, that that's actually doable, especially if we just look at Monday, at this time, right now, right here, that's actually doable for your body. Your body can't do all of it all of the time Like.

Speaker 2:

So, coming back to that presence, all of it, all of the time, like so, coming back to that presence, oh yeah, totally. And then I also love the, the nuance, like I? Um, for a bit of context, you know I came up from from a back a marketing background business, got my MBA and all that. And the big thing is like best practices, do this and you will be successful. You know, the same thing is applicable to motherhood and I've come to learn that, whether it's in business, motherhood or just how you live your life, there are no best practices, there are no universal rules that are applicable no matter what. What you have to do, and I'll do those things. And that way I don't have to drop into my own body and figure out what my needs are, what my boundaries are, what my desires are. Just tell me what I should do and I can actually stay a bit dissociated.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, that self-trust. I feel like I've heard that theme in you and I've wanted to name it, and I don't think I've named it yet of hearing this what would it look like to trust myself, even if something happens to my child, even when something happens to my marriage or to my business? What would it look like to trust myself? But in order to trust yourself, I think, where most women, I think, where there's this gap between where women are and where we want to be as mothers. So often I think that gap is first you have to have a self. You have to be able to know and feel yourself, and so much of our culture is this like.

Speaker 1:

Let me feed it to you, let me give you the book of motherhood, let me give you the book of nervous system regulation, and what I love about the work that you do with HLN and I know that you do because I've listened to you talk about it with DEI is okay self. Can you get to know yourself, your body, your nervous system, the way that you operate, your patterns. Can you learn the language of self, because then you can learn to trust it, because it's hard to trust someone if you don't know what they're saying If you're disassociated from them, if you're shaming them, if you're judging them, how can you slow down and feel yourself and be present? I'm just, I'm sitting here like so excited because there's so many goodies here in this podcast that I'm like I don't know how to wrap it up and I don't want to, but we could just talk forever and forever. So I'm so curious at one years old, she won officially. Has she had her birthday?

Speaker 2:

She is. She's turned one last week.

Speaker 1:

Happy birthday to her and to you. What do you feel like is the brightest gift of this last year for you and your motherhood? Like I'm curious about you and your motherhood yeah, cause she's easy, like she's just cute and those smiles and the face and the, like you know, curiosity around releasing judgment and expectation.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:

Do you feel like this year, because I see so much self-trust and self-confidence in you? Do you feel like that's something that you've always had? Do you feel like it's something you've developed? Is it new?

Speaker 2:

oh yeah no, definitely so, not something I always, always had, like I said I don't, I don't think I could have. How do I say I'm almost certain, had this happened earlier in my life, it would have been traumatizing for me Because, again, it shouldn't have happened to me, we shouldn't have had to deal with this. And I don't think so much that I'm confident as, or I'll say this what was interesting, somewhat related to that, was like, after she had been resuscitated, one of the doctors came up to me and said, oh my gosh, how are you so, how are you so calm? Or I'm amazed at how calm you are watching, watching this process, and I said, you know, thank you.

Speaker 2:

But I kind of wanted to tell him like I'm not calm, I'm embodied, and so I'm actually really adrenalized and stimulated right now, and I'm also present to the fact that, yep, she's on a heart bypass machine and she's okay. I'm sitting in a chair, I can kind of just let my body fall into this chair and be held. I'm consciously aware of those things and so for me I don't even know there's so much that I'm confident now, but I am significantly, significantly more embodied, I am present in the moment, I am consciously curious, that is, I'm consistently challenging any sort of judgments or attachments I may have and then, because I'm embodied, because I'm present, I have really clear awareness of my capacity and, as a result, my boundaries, and then I can clearly communicate my boundaries now and again. I don't have attachments as to whether or not people can accept my boundaries. That's their work to do.

Speaker 1:

Ooh, I love what you just said and it has me sitting here like, okay, confidence not the word, because even as you started talking I was like ooh, sometimes people will say like, oh, you're so confident, and I actually don't love the way it feels, because I'm like okay, but not always. But you don't hear the things going on in my head and my heart and sometimes me appearing confident is actually not what's actually going on.

Speaker 2:

Ah, yeah.

Speaker 1:

But I love that you described that, because, as you described that I'm thinking I think that's what people see as confidence is actually not necessarily confidence. It's a person who is embodied and a person who can feel themselves and feel their nuanced response.

Speaker 2:

And we didn't even get to get into boundaries.

Speaker 1:

So I'm going to like cut myself because I like I really want to go there, but we do have I'll come back, we can talk about boundaries because I'm like, oh, it just feels so juicy to go there. But I think so much when we look at confident mothers, especially when we look at mothers who seem calm, or I think really the language so many women would use is like a good mother, it's a mother who is attuned to herself. It's a mother who is taking care of herself, and sometimes that looks different than other times. Yeah, there isn't this. What was the language you used for it?

Speaker 1:

I'm trying to think that like perfect book, there's no like perfect. I'm trying to think that perfect book, there's no perfect balance of what it looks like every time, even for the same person, for the same body needs and wants different things than the Camila year ago, and it'll probably look different in a month or a week or even in an hour. Who knows? Maybe she'll wake up from her nap and she'll be sunshine and rainbows and super happy, or she'll be a one-year-old who hates that you did this one thing, this one way. It's give or take with motherhood, and I think when we uncouple all of the stories from that and when we are just present and embodied and feeling ourselves literally like being able to feel the self. It makes such a massive difference and the way that we experience motherhood. But I also think it changes the way that we experience our children and the hard things that they inevitably go through.

Speaker 2:

Oh, absolutely. I mean, for me it really harkens back to something you mentioned earlier. For me it's made it. It's just actually made things much more simple. It's made things much more simple. There's a we have a lot more. You know, as I release some of those over-couplings, those attachments, those judgments and expectations, it's a lot more simple to make a decision and we have a lot more agency. We have a lot more choice than we assume.

Speaker 1:

That word, agency and choice, I think for so many women. They feel overwhelmed because it's not that it's too much.

Speaker 1:

It's that you no longer feel your agency and your sense of control, and so it feels like too much because you don't feel embodied enough to do anything about it. Yes, then, when you can do something about it, like there's this, this, like polarized stuckness around, I can't, even when there's plenty of things you can do. So, oh, I just love that. Is there anything else that you want to like name or that's coming up as we wrap up?

Speaker 2:

I'll just say, like one of the, I am a somatic experiencing practitioner and I work with a wide variety of folks, but I particularly enjoy working with mothers. So if anyone's ever looking for a session, particularly like you were saying, someone who's not there to teach you what to know but how to know, look me up Now. I know that might be frustrating to some people If you're looking for what to know. I'm not the person to call, but I'm more than happy, excited, thrilled, to support you in discovering how to know.

Speaker 1:

I love that and you have a retreat coming up that you're doing with.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yep. So holistic life navigation, we'll be doing a retreat coming up that you're doing with. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yep. So holistic life navigation, we'll be doing um a retreat in june. So if you're looking for some, some in-person work, want to come hang out. We'd love to have love.

Speaker 1:

You have happy up there up in new york that's on my bucket list of like hln retreat someday it will work, but thank you so so much for being here. This conversation just lit me up and I think we were able to talk about some things in motherhood in a way that I haven't heard people talk about, and I love that so, so much. And I love your story and the way that you express yourself and your embodied self and the way that you are able to share that. So thank you so much for being here with me today.

Speaker 2:

Oh, absolutely, thank you for inviting.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I really appreciate it Absolutely, and all Camille's information are in the show notes, all of her links, all of her details. Thanks for hanging out today on the Motherhood Mentor Podcast. If you loved today's episode, share it with a friend or tag me in your stories on Instagram so that we can connect. Take up audacious space in your life and I'll see you next time.

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Camille Leak

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