Enneagram tools, parenting struggles, and motherhood with Beth McCord

Episode Summary: Unlock the secrets to a more harmonious family life as we sit down with Beth McCord, an acclaimed Enneagram expert, on the latest Motherhood Mentor Podcast. Beth shares her transformative journey with the Enneagram offering valuable lessons on improving communication and reducing stress in family dynamics. Dive deep into how understanding your Enneagram type can lead to more empathetic, less conflict-ridden relationships.

Key Takeaways:

1. Beth’s Enneagram Journey:
2. Hear Beth’s personal story of discovering her Enneagram Type 9 and how it reshaped her approach to marriage and parenting.
3. Deep Dive into the Enneagram:
4. Learn how understanding your Enneagram type reveals core motivations, fears, and desires, enhancing self-awareness and empathy.
5. Practical Tools:
6. Beth introduces the AWARE acronym to help parents manage triggers and engage more effectively with their children.
7. Enneagram and Parenting:
8. Explore how Enneagram insights can complement gentle parenting methods, especially with toddlers.
9. How - and when to find your kids enneagram type 
10. Transformative Self-Awareness:
11. Discover how embracing your unique qualities and strengths can lead to a more balanced, joyful family life.

Episode Highlights:

1. [05:30] Beth McCord’s journey with Enneagram Type 9.
2. [15:00] How the Enneagram illuminates core motivations and fears.
3. [25:45] Using the AWARE acronym to manage parenting triggers.
4. [35:00] Applying Enneagram insights to gentle parenting.

About Beth: 
Beth McCord, founder of Your Enneagram Coach is an Enneagram speaker, coach
and teacher for over 20 years. She is passionate about coming alongside
individuals and helping them re-write their story, allowing them to see that lasting change, meaningful relationships, and a life of deep purpose is possible.

Additional Links:
Beth’s New Book For Moms

Free Enneagram Test  

Beth's new book for moms 

Join us next time as we continue to explore the multifaceted journey of motherhood.

Thank you for tuning in to The Motherhood Mentor. If you enjoyed this episode, don't forget to subscribe, rate, and review us.

Stay connected with us on social media and share your thoughts and experiences tagging @themotherhoodmentor

Chapters

• 0:05 Enneagram and Motherhood
• 8:37 Understanding Enneagram for Personal Growth
• 16:12 Self-Care and Motherhood
• 25:21 Self-Awareness and Parenting Growth
• 35:58 Understanding Self-Care Through Personal Development
• 43:26 Healing Motherhood Through Enneagram Growth
• 49:16 Exploring Enneagram for Personal Growth
• 1:02:59 Empowering Motherhood Conversations

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:05

Welcome to the Motherhood Mentor Podcast. I'm Becca, a holistic life coach, mom of two, wife and business owner. This is a podcast where we will have conversations and coaching around all things strategy and healing that supports both who you are and what you do. So grab your iced coffee or whatever weird health beverage you are currently into and let's do the damn thing. Welcome to today's episode of the Motherhood Mentor Podcast.

Speaker 1: 0:32

Today, I have an incredible guest on with me, beth McCord, who is a well-known Enneagram expert, and she is super special to me because she is actually who certified and taught me Enneagram coaching, and so it was really cool to get to know her, to learn even more about her journey with the Enneagram, and she gives so much vital, incredible information about how Enneagram really can support us individually as who we are, as moms. Right, because we all have different triggers and different giftings and different hard things, and each of our kids are different. Right, they have their own Enneagram types, they have their own personalities and struggles and strengths, and this is just such an incredible conversation. I hope it blesses you, I hope it unshames your lived experience as a mom, and I can't wait to hear what you think about it, beth. I am genuinely so excited to get to know you and talk to you today about Enneagram and specifically Enneagram and motherhood.

Speaker 1: 1:31

I was finishing up reading your book this weekend, camping and hilarious. No, I didn't tell you before we got on. My daughter loves parenting books, oh okay, and so she was like I want to read it. So she was starting to look into the back of it and kind of seeing she loves I love Enneagram. So obviously she's kind of interested too. But anyways, I absolutely loved your new book, the Enneagram for Moms, and I'm just so excited today to talk about it. And I'd love to hear your story of Enneagram and motherhood and how it impacted your early motherhood, because I loved reading your story in the book.

Speaker 2: 2:10

Oh, great, well, thank you. Yeah, so my story with the Enneagram starts way back in 2001. So this was quite a while ago and at the time I was 26 years old. I'd been married already six years. Jeff and I got married at the young age of 20. And we already had our two kiddos by that time of 26. And they were one and three years old.

Speaker 2: 2:34

Jeff was going to seminary at the time. We lived on campus and I was, you know, just raising the kids full time. He, you know, was in seminary full time and he worked part time at St Louis University in campus ministry. So his plate was really full and obviously my plate was really full. And so, you know, being 26 years old and already married six years and having two kiddos, you know you don't really know yourself very well.

Speaker 2: 3:06

You know, just to begin with that age, let alone this other person you know that you're trying to do life with, and so we were hitting some turbulence and Jeff really, you know, thankfully, wanted to understand us and me better and all I could see was the top of the iceberg, issues, you know, things that were irritating me or frustrating me, and he would want to know more about, like why and like what's, like, what's the underlying things that are going on, and I didn't understand what he was saying. I didn't, I didn't know, and so, you know, we just kept kind of running into this wall of not being able to go much further. So we had a friend who's going through counseling and their counselor introduced him to the Enneagram and so he said, hey, you guys might be interested in this book. So Jeff thought it looked interesting, but he was obviously busy. So I just dove headlong into it and I found my type right away, the type 9, the peaceful accommodator, and realized why. I didn't know myself, because type nines live in this internal fog. We don't understand ourselves very well, because we just go along to get along, to keep the peace, and so we're just focused on other people versus our internal world, and so of course I didn't understand myself. But this gave me the clarity I was needing to be able to communicate with Jeff on a much deeper level, and so it really helped us in our marriage, first and foremost.

Speaker 2: 4:31

But then, as I started using it, understanding myself, I could see how it was impactful and how I was parenting. It helped me to understand why I got activated at certain times why I would get stressed or anxious, and not that I really yet had the tools to do much with it, you know, still pretty young. It was giving me a framework of what was going on internally and then over the course of time, I was able to go okay, yeah, so I'm going to get activated when the kids do this. That and the other Like, for instance, a big one is if they were to fight or argue or whine. For me that was like the absolute no-no, and we'll get into this in a little bit. Part of that has to do with my story, which we'll get into, you know, understanding our story. But then I mean being a peaceful accommodator. I'm like, no, we're all going to love each other, we're going to have peace and harmony. We're not going to like tease each other or put each other down or whine or complain, like, use your words.

Speaker 2: 5:33

And so it helped me to understand why I would get activated so quickly and want to jump in and maybe change things Now.

Speaker 2: 5:41

Obviously there's some good things there to want to change. Change things Now. Obviously there's some good things there to want to change. But what I needed to understand is am I overreaching based off of some core fears and motives that I had going on and when and where should I dial it back? And then, you know, try to understand the kids, their stage of development, all those kinds of things. So the Enneagram just gave me really a map to understand my internal world and then eventually to understand my husband and then, definitely, when my kids were old enough to know their types, to understand them on a whole new level. And it's just brought our family again this map of understanding one another but also the relational dynamics, which we call the dance, that are happening between us and how those get misaligned. But then how can we get them aligned back again to have a healthy relationship together. So that is kind of my story, kind of, in a nutshell.

Speaker 1: 6:40

I love that and I resonate so deeply of when I found Enneagram. It's so funny how similar our stories are. When I found Enneagram, I was at this point where, like I needed language. I was starting to notice specifically for me it was finding this how different my husband and I were and how different we were trying to parent and it was so weird to me how we have very similar values and yet the way we went about parenting that and the way like our conflict styles with each other and with our kids. That was what led me to Enneagram. My sister-in-law had mentioned it and I remember kind of reading top level things about it and kind of like I don't really know if this resonates with me and then reading one chapter in a book about a type two and I had this feeling of like, oh, I get it, I get it. Like I finally have language that I can now give my husband. I now have a tangible tool and it wasn't like Enneagram put me in a box.

Speaker 1: 7:44

I think a lot of people are worried that Enneagram tells you who you are. I think it gives you language for who you are. I think it's and what I love about it most is it's a tool and a resource that doesn't just say here's how you are and stay there, here's how you are and here's how you can use that for the health of you and the people around you. So, instead of using it like an excuse or something that keeps us stuck, it gives us so much empowerment of how we use that, and I heard that so much in your story of this tangible tool and that's why I think it is so profound when I'm using it with mothers, because so many of the women who come to work with me and I'm sure you hear this a lot too is this very common thread in motherhood of I don't know who I am, I don't know how I feel, I don't understand the way that I feel, I don't recognize these behaviors.

Speaker 1: 8:37

And I think what's hard is our culture wants to just fix the behavior without understanding what's driving the behavior. And Enneagram helps us understand what's driving that behavior. And Enneagram helps us understand what's driving that behavior for you, because I might be yelling at my kids for a completely different reason than you and in fact I am and things that my kids do might not trigger you but they trigger me, like the fighting thing, like when my kids bicker. It is so triggering to me, the conflict, the like, what I perceive as conflict, and so it's just been so fun for me. So for people who are new to Enneagram, and even people who are familiar with Enneagram, how would you describe what Enneagram is?

Speaker 2: 9:17

Yeah, that's a great question. So the Enneagram when you look at the symbol, it is basically a nine-pointed geometric figure, or basically a nine-pointed geometric figure, or basically a nine-pointed star, and at each of the points is a basic personality type. So we each have a basic personality type and those are based off of our core motivations. The core motivations are your core fear what you're running away from and trying to prevent happening a core desire, what you long to obtain, and have the core weakness. This is your Achilles heel, the thorn in your side that's constantly tripping you up. And then your core longing, a message your heart longs to hear. And that's what your personality really hinges on and that's why you do what you do.

Speaker 2: 10:01

And that's what the Enneagram is all about. It's about the why, not the behaviors, because all Enneagram types can do the same behavior but for very different reasons, and so we want to get to the why, and the why is going to help us then to understand am I doing this specific behavior or thought pattern or feeling? Is it a healthy, average or unhealthy for my personality type? And that's what's so beautiful about the Enneagram. It's not that, because a lot of times when people find their type, they've somehow just like like all humans, we just hone in on the worst aspects of that personality type and we're like I'm the worst. You know, look at, look at this, all the other types aren't this bad. And it's like, well, actually they are.

Speaker 1: 10:48

When you're that type, it feels that bad. It does it feels that bad, but all the times. We would know as 2s and 9s, because I feel like a lot of people think it's so good to be a 2 and a 9, unless you are one or you're married to one. You probably know that like, yes, it's wonderful to be a two or a nine, it's also really hard, just like it is an eight or a four, whatever. It's hard to be human.

Speaker 2: 11:10

Yes, exactly. And so what I always tell people is all Enneagram types at their best are the best and all Enneagram types at their worst really struggle and it's very hard for themselves and those around them. So and you can look very different when you're healthiest, all the way down to your unhealthiest, but you're still your main type with the core motivations of your main type. I'll just give an example a type eight at the healthiest you could think of like a Dr Martin Luther King Jr, at the most unhealthy it'd be like a Saddam Hussein Very, very different outward behaviors, but the same core motivations. And so that helps us to understand that we, my whole focus with the Enneagram is using it as a map to growth, to transformation with the Enneagram is using it as a map to growth, to transformation, because the healthier I am as a type nine not trying to be someone else, but just me as a type nine it is going to obviously be a blessing to myself. I'm going to find much more joy, but then the overflow is going to bless my family, my friends, my coworkers and society as a whole. And so for me, the biggest thing about the Enneagram is just truly understanding your personality type, getting dialed into understanding. Are you in any current moment in a healthy, average and unhealthy way acting, feeling, behaving? And then get to the why and helping yourself to grow into a healthier state? Without this is key shame, guilt, condemnation, judgment on ourselves.

Speaker 2: 12:56

And then the other greatest thing about the Enneagram is it allows us to see through the lens of all the other eight types. So think about us all wearing glasses and we each have our own tainted color lens with our Enneagram type perspective. So you are literally seeing the world through your own perspective, through those core motivations. And so you as a type nine, rebecca, me as a type, I mean you as a type two, me as a type nine. You're looking through, let's say mean you as a type two, me as a type nine, you're looking through, let's say, teal lenses and I'm looking through purple lenses. But you know, as humans, I think you're seeing the world the same way. And so when you do something different, I'm like what in the world, why? Why would you do that or why would you think that? And you so that we can have understanding, compassion, empathy, grace, love, forgiveness, all of these different attributes that are really hard for us to do without that clear understanding of one another and ourselves too.

Speaker 2: 14:00

And I loved your point is that what we say at your Enneagram Coach is don't use the Enneagram as a sword or a shield. So you don't want to hurt someone with it, going, rebecca, you're just being a two, you know. Or at myself, you know I could do it to myself too oh, I'm such a nine, you know. Or we don't want to use it as a shield, like, well, rebecca, you know I'm a two, so sometimes I procrastinate and you're just going to have to deal with it Like that's just, that's just who I am. Like that is not growth and that is not how you promote health for yourself nor your relationships. And so the Enneagram is very, very powerful, but can be used for the greatest good, for one's own personal development, but also the development of your relationships with others.

Speaker 1: 14:51

Yeah, and I really think that Enneagram is so powerful for relationships because it takes things that are often intangible and often unconscious. It takes those unconscious body, somatic based patterns of triggers and responses and it brings awareness to them. It makes them conscious, not only for ourselves but someone else's lived experience that we can't fathom. Enneagram, like I was saying, it helped me so much in my marriage. My husband, we're pretty sure, is an eight. He's not as into Enneagram as I am, which is okay, and it helped me understand that he's not wrong and that he has to be loved in a different way and he approaches conflict in a wrong and not in a wrong way. That's a good flip. That was a really hilarious flip. I thought he approached conflict wrong. Oh, sure.

Speaker 1: 15:37

I wanted him to approach conflict like a two right Right, exactly Because that's the right way to do conflict. But when I found Enneagram and I really got into the depths of it, I started realizing like, oh, he's not doing it wrong, he's just different and in fact he's bringing a massively different strength to conflict that I needed to learn, that I needed to grow in, and so I'm so grateful for that awareness, especially as I was heading into the toddler phases, because that's where parenting got really interesting for me and where Enneagram became so powerful. Because I had this idealistic version of who I thought I would be as a mom and I had these values of how I wanted to parent. And then I would watch myself like why am I getting triggered? Why is my behavior as a gentle parent not working on my toddler, who has no interest in being gentle? Like I just didn't understand why my behavior wasn't fixing hers. That was like my brain thought. If I could just be the perfect mom, if I could find enough.

Speaker 1: 16:47

You know, at that stage of my life, the way to be the perfect mom was all based on being very like attachment and gentle and focusing highly, highly on how I responded or didn't respond and it was honestly exhausting and none of it was looking at how I was experiencing parenting in my body, in myself, instead of looking at my triggers. I was just trying to figure out why I could. I was like trying to help her regulate, not noticing my dysregulation. And what I love about your book is really speaking to how we can kind of interrupt those patterns and become aware of it. And I'm just curious for moms who are new to this what's like a good way for them to start using the Enneagram in motherhood?

Speaker 2: 17:38

Yeah, so in the book, we really. So in the book, we really the first thing we're talking about. Well, let me back up yeah, this is the book that moms need, not what they want. And I say that kind of with laughter, because I know what you want, because I wanted it All the way back in 2001,. Like, just tell me what my kid's type is, give me the manual, the instruction manual for each of them, and I'll be on my way, I'll just do what it says, as if they're a robot, as if we're a robot, right, right?

Speaker 2: 18:10

Like, if I just do what the instruction manual says, they will end up being the most beautiful, healthy human beings ever and this will be great. And that's just not how life is. And so and I mean and we can talk about this later if you want but you can't type your kids. They have to type themselves, and that means they have to know why they do what they do at a very core level, and the earliest that's probably going to happen is in their teenage years.

Speaker 1: 18:38

So and some adults are still working on it right, that's right.

Speaker 2: 18:41

That's why I'm like the earliest it's going to happen. And then there's 40, 50, 60 year olds are like I don't know which one's my type, and it's like that makes sense. You know it takes time. So I don't say that to discourage parents, I say it as an encouragement. You're not going to be able to know your kid's type until they're older. And yes, I know all there, I, I hear it all the time. Well, we're pretty sure they're this type and I'm like, and I just kind of sit there and certainly go okay, well, we'll just wait till their next developmental stage and then we'll see.

Speaker 1: 19:16

Because, right when you have it figured out, they change. Yes, they do.

Speaker 2: 19:20

And like, for instance, you know, most teenage girls, the parents are going to go, well, gosh, they're definitely a four. Well, yeah, because they have a lot of hormones that are, you know, surging and highs and lows and all the different things are going on, especially in this day and age, oh my goodness. And then, you know, with boys, they're like, oh, they got to be an eight, right, you know, or seven, you know. They're so like intense and aggressive, and not all of them, but you know, in general, and it's like, yeah, because their developmental stage is at that point doing certain things. And so that's why I really just encourage parents to hang on tight, be good students of your kids, be curious, ask great questions. But the primary thing that you're going to want to do is focus on your own story and what's going on internally. And so how can you self-regulate, know what's triggering you, why it's triggering you, and then what are the key things that you need to have good self-care so that when you're around your kids, that normally things are going to activate you. And hey, activation or being triggered is not bad, like you're not being bad for being activated. That's just life. People are different. It's what we do when we're activated, that matters. When we're activated, that matters. So the whole book is really focusing in on why you do what you do as a parent and then how to self-regulate. And we walk you through our acronym called AWARE, a-w-a-r-e, so that you can awaken to your thoughts, feelings and body inclinations, like what's going on. Then we want you to welcome all that you're learning about yourself, without shame, judgment and criticism, so that you can start asking for what's true. This could be asking yourself, this could be asking people around you, it could be asking experts. I mean, there's lots of ways to find truth of what's going on. Then we want you to receive that truth, which can be hard. It's like, okay, I got the truth but I don't know if I really want to receive it. So we want to receive the truth because the truth will set you free. And then E is engage. Now that you have the truth, we want you to engage in life and relationships in a new, healthy way, which is really hard. A new, healthy way, which is really hard.

Speaker 2: 21:48

So in the book we're really helping moms to become aware of their internal world so that they can self-regulate, they can take good care of themselves, love themselves, which is very foreign to most of us. People like doing it in the right way. In fact, I would say most of us have been taught how that's wrong, or selfish, or egocentric or arrogant whatever word you want to put to it. In an actuality, I mean, I don't know. You know who that is listening? Um, are Christians.

Speaker 2: 22:17

But the second, the second highest commandment is to love others as you love yourself. And so many of us forget the second part as yourself. So, basically, we can't really love others until we know how to love ourselves. And that's not a oh, I'm just going to give myself whatever I want or, you know, I'm just going to be super arrogant. No, it's. What do I need? Why am I getting activated? What is going on within me that needs to be restored, healed, understood, attuned to, cared for, nurtured, because a lot of times we weren't given those things as children, because our parents struggled. You know even that the best parents struggle. So how can we understand our story then? To nurture ourselves in a way that provides a safe place for us to self-regulate, so that we can move towards our kids, especially when they're not regulated, which is majority of the time.

Speaker 1: 23:18

Yeah, oh, you just brought up so many good points and one of the things I love that you touched on and this is like if there was one soapbox I could have with moms, this would probably be well, probably if I can't just pick one, but this would be one is that there has been this like martyrdom in motherhood, but the messaging our culture has given is like selfcare isn't selfish, which, like, I've never met a single mom who, like, read that quote and all of a sudden was like, oh, okay, right, because it's not this logical punishing yourself. It is this orientation of I'm so focused on what everyone else wants and needs from me that I've forgotten myself. Right, and I think one of the fastest ways to bring moms back to that that I've witnessed is to witness how do you love your children. It's not just bubble baths and letting them fun things and it's not saying you deserve a candy at night, right, like is that love?

Speaker 1: 24:20

Sometimes, absolutely, it's also boundaries. It's also putting them in sports with a coach who's going to tell them hard, uncomfortable things they have to hear about themselves. It's also giving them vegetables when they just want to eat ice cream for dinner. It's not all. Love is not weak. Love is not a meek emotion or service or act, and I think women, and especially mothers, really forget that loving themselves is an act of service to their families.

Speaker 1: 24:57

Like it is quite literally, absolutely whatever you feed yourself becomes an inheritance to your family, to your children. And I really see parenting as a leadership. I really do think that the health and wellness of our family comes from the health and wellness of us. It is so hard to give them something we don't have, and I see it all the time of moms who are working so hard. This is a very common age at stage. They come to me with toddlers and they say my toddler is so dysregulated and I'm dysregulated, and they just want to change their behavior. And I'm like, no, that's great. I'm agreeing with you that we can change your behavior, but not till we understand that you're a human who needs something and your behavior is just a sign and a signal of what's going on deeper inside of you. And so I'm like I know you want to just quick jump to the engagement of what do I do, but I'm very aware that if I just tell you what to do, it doesn't matter if you're so dysregulated you can't do it. It doesn't matter if I teach you what to do, and it's great for two months, and then all of a sudden your kid has this flip and now all of a sudden things aren't working. I'm like you have to have a relationship to what's going on, with who you are and your story, and I love what you were saying about this.

Speaker 1: 26:20

You didn't use the word choice, but I heard this word choice. You used a different word. I'm trying to think of the word you used. It was in your aware thing. You use awareness.

Speaker 1: 26:31

You were talking about taking action and I think people want to jump to the action without having awareness, without having this relationship to it, and I think what's beautiful whenever we feel that in our lives we're able to give it to our kids and it becomes an embodiment. It's not something that is so hard and something else that you said was really powerful of just witnessing dysregulation and activation is not something we can like, outrun, outheal, outgrow Like. It's not something you can do enough coaching or therapy or reading or Enneagram work and not have it. And you can change the way that you respond to it, just like you can change the way that you respond to a yelling, freaking out toddler. You can change the way that you respond to yourself as a yelling, freaking out mom, depending on where you're stuck. Yeah, you know so the things that you respond to yourself as a yelling, freaking out mom, exactly Depending on where you're stuck, yeah, you know.

Speaker 2: 27:25

So the things that we're saying to ourselves internally when we start getting dysregulated for whatever's going on, usually we think is going to help us and motivate us to become better, but oftentimes it is, in some form or fashion, either self-criticism or other criticism.

Speaker 1: 27:45

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 27:45

And that only pushes ourself down or pushes others down or away, and then we are isolated and alone and we really can't grow without good community one with ourselves and then one with others and then one with others. And so it is really important that moms are able to embrace the fullness of who they are, that they were created to be their type for their kiddos. It wasn't a mistake. I was created to be Nate and Libby's mom as a type nine. I wasn't supposed to be a four or a six or whatever. I was supposed to be a nine. Now there are many times I have thought that was wrong, like someone made a mistake, like I can't do this, I should be like so-and-so or or so-and-so. And then I have to remember no, like. I have lots of great things that I can impart to my kids I don't want to make them into, even though we all want to make them into little versions of ourselves Like a little bit, yeah, yeah, but once we understand, okay, we can't do that.

Speaker 2: 28:49

They are themselves and they have their own personalities, but I get to impart some of the best things that I have to offer to them that will benefit them Like it wasn't a mistake. So, yeah, so, all that to be said, yes, there is a choice to be made, and the first choice has to be that we have to take good care of ourselves by understanding ourselves, so that we can then catch ourselves in being activated and then hopefully not get dysregulated. And how I usually talk about this when I'm teaching is that you're driving down the highway and you know, and you start to either get sleepy or you're kind of like batting at the kids in the backseat and you're not paying attention and you start to veer off the road. Now, if you're really not paying attention, you're going to land into a common pitfall. You're going to do the same thing that you constantly do and you're going to throw up your hands in the air and go haven't I learned my lesson? Like, why am I doing this again? Oh, my goodness. And then we shame ourselves and put ourselves down, and then this cycle goes on and on. Right, but what if you were able to put down, lay down on the road, rumble strips, which is that thing that alerts you on the side of the road that little do, do, do, do, do. You know, when you start veering off and you're like whoops, okay, wait, get back on the road. That is what you do with the Enneagram, and self-work is when you get activated. You can go. Huh, wonder why I'm feeling that way, or no, I'm thinking that way. I wonder why I'm acting this way.

Speaker 2: 30:23

Now, sometimes we just veer off really quickly and we're in that pitfall again, and that's when we can go. You know what? There was a rumble strip, or should have been a rumble strip somewhere. Where did I miss it? When did this incident start? Kind of derailing that I could have alerted myself and kind of gotten myself back on track, and that just takes time and patience and self-love, like just care. And then you're going to start to know yourself a lot better over time. You're going to have the vocabulary, the insights, and so when you start to feel those feelings or those thoughts or body sensations, you can go. Oh wait, I know this feeling. Hold on, this isn't this. I'm going off track here. What do I need to do and then you can reassess the situation and you can, over time, know what's beneficial and helpful for you to get back into a healthy place.

Speaker 2: 31:13

So, like for me, I can get really dysregulated when there's a lot of chaos and overwhelm and lots of noise. Even when my kids, when they were younger, are wrestling with their dad and being tickled and all this stuff, my eyes are like this is great, they're having fun with their dad, they're having good connection and relationship with their dad, but everything in my body is screaming to make it stop. Now there are other Enneagram types out there that are like huh, you know, like that doesn't make any sense. But for me, as a type nine, a lot of energy and intensity is it just literally kind of bombards my soul and just feels very overwhelming. So here I can see logically okay, things are good, but I feel absolutely dysregulated in my body. That's when I can make a choice, because in the past I would have been like stop, you know, like, oh, this is so like disruptive or too loud or whatever.

Speaker 2: 32:12

Well, now that I know, as a type nine, that feels like conflict, it feels like chaos because of the noise. I can now tell myself, oh, this makes sense because of the noise, I can now tell myself, oh, this makes sense. Or for me, as a type nine, this makes sense, but things are fine right now. So I can either maybe go to the bedroom and say, hey guys, have fun, I'm going to just need to go and kind of do my own thing, or whatever it is. Or I can put earbuds in and kind of drown out the noise a little bit so it doesn't feel so intense. Or if I can't do anything like that and I'm really in a stuck place, I can let my family know hey guys, you're having a great time. I love that.

Speaker 2: 32:51

I'm sorry, I'm just kind of in a tough spot right now and it's just kind of making me feel really anxious and because I can't leave or do anything else. Could you guys maybe do that another time? Or can you bring the noise down a little bit so we can learn how to help care for ourselves in a way that's loving and modeling self-awareness to our kids, asking for what we need, asking them kindly, letting them know hey, this is not a bad situation, you're not doing anything wrong, but you know what? This is where I'm at currently, for whatever reason, and could you guys help me out in this way.

Speaker 2: 33:28

That is what we're talking about is to learn why we're feeling, thinking, behaving off of any given circumstance, and then what is it that we can do for ourselves and those around us that is more healthy and kind than just the normal freak out, get upset, yell Now that's just pretty normal for most people or they shut down Right, and so I don't want moms out there going. Oh, I'm just such a terrible mom I got. We all do it. We all do it, even us nines that hate being angry and yelling. We all do it. But we can learn healthier ways.

Speaker 1: 34:06

Yeah, I mean, look out for an angry, resentful two or a nine. And what I loved hearing in that too is it'd be so easy to go quickly to let me control my behavior in this moment, which in some moments is good right, like it's good to have self-boundaries, and it's also a deeper work to say I'm not going to shame myself for what I'm experiencing, I'm not going to blame the person outside of me, but I am going to responsibly care for what I need and then also allow the other people around me to communally care, and I think that's such a powerful thing to create in your family where they are not responsible for mom right, like the parent is the authority, like the, they can see that the parent is safe and taking care of themselves and there's not that emotional kind of stuff that you know. I work with quite a few women who their mother's happiness depended on them, and so, even when you're an adult woman, when you feel like your mother's happiness or okayness, depended on how good you were, you still carry this like internal shame of how good you need to be. You were, you still carry this like internal shame of how good you need to be, and I think what's so powerful as mothers is when we can own our shame without letting it ride us, letting it drive us, letting it determine what we do, without blaming our children either, while also teaching us and our kids how to be responsible for each other, of like, how to care for one another. I think that's such a powerful thing that I think so many of us are still learning as adults of how do we be empathetic without over attuning to other, and I think I'm.

Speaker 1: 35:58

You know, I work with a lot of women who struggle with people pleasing and fawning. How do I make everyone else happy? And I saw a meme the other day of like oh, you're a people pleaser, tell me who's pleased. And I had to laugh of like it's so true, because I used to be such a people pleaser, and in some of the worst ways, with my husband, which is so crazy, because now that I'm not in it, I'm like man. He was already so pleased with me and yet here I was running on this treadmill trying to be something I didn't have to be, when, like that expectation was not coming from him.

Speaker 2: 36:36

And.

Speaker 1: 36:36

I think we can create that with our kids of trying trying to be what we think they need instead of witnessing. This is how I am, this is where I came from and this is where I want to go, and then owning not just our behaviors but the development of our character. Right, like I think as a parent, one of the hardest things for me is letting my kids have a say in that, like. I accept their feedback and it would be so curious to know, you know, when we don't know our kids types, my approach to it has always been like well, play with it If you think they might be this type. Play, learn about that type and then play with some of the responses.

Speaker 1: 37:19

play with their conflict avoidance style see if there's a way that you can use that information as a helpful tool, because all of us are just humans and humans work differently. We have different mechanics driving us and so play with it and see if it works, see if it feels good for you and for them. Ask them for ideas. But what are some ways with parenting when we can't know their type, when we know our type? You already shared the aware part. Where are the places you would go next?

Speaker 2: 37:52

Yeah, that's really good. I would say probably really just understanding your own developmental story and that's hard, hard work. But I think it's really good work. And kind of to your point on people pleasing. You know that's pretty much what nines are just craving to do. Is the? The running false thought in our mind is well, if everyone else is good and okay, then I can be good and okay. Okay. So when is that ever going to happen? Because no one's ever good and okay.

Speaker 1: 38:27

Right, like when you're a teenager, or your toddler, or your toddler or your baby like, yeah, right, exactly so.

Speaker 2: 38:34

Then it's like, okay, so all nines can never be good and okay, great, and that's just not actually true. It might feel true because of the lens that we see through and we haven't done the work to understand that, but that is actually just, it's not true. So I'm literally this little baby and, you know, in the hospital with little glasses on, with little type nine lenses. You know I'm seeing and experiencing the world even at that age through this type nine lens. Now, of course I have no idea and we can get into. You know I have a whole analogy on in the book on kids and their kind of development and their personality. But all to be said is, you know, I've always been a type nine. Now we use all nine types to varying degrees. So you're going to see at different times, you know different aspects of your kid and you're going to feel confused and that's just normal. But by me looking back and going, oh, okay.

Speaker 2: 39:42

So as a type nine, I'll just tell you a little bit about my story. So you know I was born to a mom who had a lot of trauma in her past working on it. My dad is a she's a six, kind of a worry wart. My dad is a seven, like life's great, it's okay, you know, like let's just keep going. And they were in the. My dad was in the army at the time and my brother was three and a half years older and he had just, you know, within that last year or so, started talking and they found out and realized that he was a severe stutterer. So here I have a mom who's ultra worried, very highly empathetic, has the son, so she's feeling distraught and you know, so my dad, but at the same time he's like it's going to be okay. And so all this stuff going on. And then I enter the world and I'm colicky for the entire first year because I had milk allergy and they didn't know. So here I bring in purposefully obviously disruption, no peace, no rest, and I'm sure, especially with all that they were dealing with at the time, it was really heavy and hard.

Speaker 2: 40:56

So even as a little baby, when I do my own developmental story work, story work, I can recognize that my presence was bringing a lot of challenges disruption, there was, no peace, which is the very nature of what I'm trying to do my entire life. And so I can now look back and go wow, there was a lot probably going on at that time that I was absorbing. Of course I don't remember it, but I was absorbing as a little type nine girl. And then, once I got better, my brother was teasing me all the time and then my parents were upset with that, you know, and all that disruption really probably impacted me. And so this is part of unpacking my developmental story, because I realized, oh, I was just trying to be the good little girl that didn't get in the way.

Speaker 2: 41:46

I was trying not to disrupt my brother, to get him upset with me. I was trying to make my parents happy, and the only way I found to do that was to isolate myself and to go away like in my bedroom and play by myself. But as a nine, all I wanted was connection, peaceful connection. But I couldn't find it, even though in here my parents are really great people and they're flawed. And so I've had to unpack that story, because I would only see their goodness and I couldn't see past. And to see their story and understand how things were hard for them as well, to understand how that impacted my story and how it's this little type nine.

Speaker 2: 42:30

I'm trying so hard to make my brother just peaceable and kind and make him happy. Guess what? That never happened. Now, hey, we're good friends now. But you know, but he had his own story with being a severe stutter. I was kind of like the punching bag out of his own shame and struggles. And so when you unpack the story you can start going oh, this makes sense and you have more compassion for yourself and those around you, while also working on it. Super hard to do, but it's really empowering, because then you understand why some things really do activate you. And how can then I in that moment take good self-care of myself with truth and understanding or self-regulation tactics, so that I can move into my other relationships in a healthier way?

Speaker 1: 43:18

Yeah Well, man, thank you for sharing that story and that piece of it. I see so many women come into motherhood and one of the big things they start noticing is that they start seeing their parents parenting in a very new way and they start that developmental story that you were talking about. They start understanding that their narrative, since they were a child, is still very much running things. It might have put on some high heels, it might have fancied up a little bit, but ultimately they sometimes get this feeling of like it's a child playing dress up and it's because they haven't updated those developmental stories to witnessing. Like you were a child and this is the way you perceived it and it was very real, it was very tangible and it was felt in your whole body. It was ingrained into how you relate to the world, not just up here, not just in the way that you think you're running your life, but in the way that your animal body is kind of moving you through relationships and what you do, and when we start to be able to see this developmental story one of the things that I love doing and I'm curious if I'm wondering if you talked about this in the book and I like missed it. But one of the most powerful things is watching women go and update those to like. They take their adult mother, grounded, centered, self now, and they kind of visit, they bring her up to date of like that was real and valid and not all of it was true, like part of it was your perception.

Speaker 1: 44:55

And I think there is a hard part though, if sometimes it was true and in fact sometimes it was even worse than what that little girl was perceiving Right, and they get to have compassion and care and boundary. They get to be the healthy adult who comes in and helps that little girl, witness all of the healthy expressions of love, of grief, of growing up and kind of update that developmental story and just noticing how that's running. And one of the ways that I've witnessed this in my life is I'll have that kind of two story come up. And what's so interesting is, for me at least, it's never logical, it's always heart, it's always felt right, which makes sense, cause you know the centers of intelligence, of you know head, heart, gut, I feel it. And so I've noticed when I have that feeling and I have to kind of notice okay, what's the healthy way to care for this Because it's really easy for me, my, my like nature is to just suppress it, ignore it, focus external, start, helping others and resentment.

Speaker 2: 46:01

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 46:02

Oh shoot, I did that thing where I tried to focus on meeting your needs and what you want, thinking that that was love. But it actually wasn't in that moment. And it's always so well-intentioned and it's usually not purposeful. And I think that's why Enneagram is so powerful, is that it helps us see what we're up to in a way that, like, I don't have to shame myself of like oh, I'm being so manipulative and prideful. It's like okay, I wasn't doing that on purpose.

Speaker 1: 46:34

And now that I know, now that I see it, now that I can feel it, I can go tell my husband or tell my kids hey, I need this, I want this, you want something different from me. It's harder and more uncomfortable in the momentary discomfort to go and tell my husband what I want. It's so silly, like even still, it doesn't matter how healthy I get when I'm having a bad day or it's one of those weeks it can be so easy for me to default to. I don't even know I'm doing it, but I love that Enneagram has I'm quicker to catch it Right. It's not years upon years of all of a sudden resentment coming out and he's like I didn't even know. And I'm like how could you not know, and it's like it was this whole thing that I had created and I'm getting faster at like babe. I accidentally did that thing again.

Speaker 2: 47:32

Yeah, exactly, and we can laugh at it and go I'm so sorry. You know, because and that's what I want people to recognize is so when you look at the levels of health with the Enneagram type, think of each of the types as like a column, and at the very top is healthy, and then there's average and there's unhealthy. You're going to stay in your types column, you're not going in this. I'll get to another thing. As a basic personality type, you stay in your column, okay, with those core motivations. Yes, we do use other Enneagram types and we can get into that, but when we're just talking about why you're doing what you're doing, talking about why you're doing what you're doing, it's going to be off of your main personality types, core motivations.

Speaker 2: 48:10

So this was so helpful for me when I realized, oh, wait, a second. So when I'm cause there's nine levels of health that Richa Riso and Hudson talk about in their book personality types and man, they nuance it and so I recognize like, oh, wait a second, okay. So there's times I'm going to be a level one, there's times I'm going to be at two, three, four and all the way down to nine. But I can start to recognize when I'm ticking downward and when I'm actually moving upward.

Speaker 2: 48:43

And what if I did it in a way that didn't actually moving upward? And what if I did it in a way that didn't come with shame and judgment and harshness? What if I was just like, oh, look at that, I'm, you know, kind of doing these things again? This means I need something. It's like a warning light on your car. You don't have to yell at your car because it needs an oil change like, or new tires or whatever it's like. Okay. So thank you for the awareness. Now I need to take the time to do what is the next step towards health and restoration, so that it benefits me and others.

Speaker 1: 49:16

Yeah, and one of the things I've been playing with recently in my life is my dynamic range of health and really I've had to realize that for me for a long time I kind of had a perfectionistic way of never expecting myself to feel negative emotion or have negative thoughts or get in moods or get in cycles, and I would kind of shame that part of me and try to pretend it didn't exist. None of that's surprising as to right, and I think kind of shame that part of me and try to pretend it didn't exist. None of that's surprising as to right. And I think what's been so helpful for me recently and I think every type has their range of this is to notice that I can be in a really low place and still stay healthy. I can have a really crappy day or season or I can be in grief, I can be in massive conflict with my husband or a kid and I can still stay aligned in health.

Speaker 1: 50:13

And I think what's so powerful about getting to know yourself and that relationship and getting the language and I think Enneagram is one of the like, best, fastest, like. It feels like a cheat code of like all of a sudden, when I'm at my unhealthiest. It's actually this like oh yeah, go read my chapter, go tap into my Enneagram because all of a sudden I'll be like I need to tell someone, I need to ask for help. I I have not been acknowledging what I want and need. I probably need some time alone from other people so that I can even feel and know what I want and need, because it's so easy for me when I'm struggling to look out at what other people want and need.

Speaker 1: 50:50

And so I've started to notice, okay, when I'm struggling, what are the things that I can do that keep me in health even if I'm having a hard day, because it doesn't mean, I think, healing and growth. It doesn't mean we don't have those hard days, but we show up to them differently, and I think, especially in motherhood, that is so, so powerful when we can know that you can be having a day or a moment or a season. Right, there's some seasons for moms that are just so hard. How can you show up for yourself in this season and for your kids in a way that's healthy but also in your capacity? You can't get that from just trying to stop yelling or trying to change your behavior, or there's lots of really great parenting advice and experts and I think it's helpful to have that advice of what to do. But I don't think all of that just becomes this other list of that expectation of that perfect mom Right.

Speaker 2: 51:50

Right.

Speaker 2: 51:50

There's not a relationship to who we are Exactly, and I think I mean back to your point, like doing our own story work are my last book. So this book that we're talking about is any grandpa moms, but my last book that came out in 2022 is More Than your Number, and we really go into your wounded child self and your beloved child self and how to understand how that all unfolds for your Enneagram type, and so when you talk about a cheat sheet doing this kind of work, that book is the cheat sheet, and so I just really highly recommend, if people are wanting to do that kind of internal work, that that book would be really, really beneficial.

Speaker 1: 52:31

Yeah, that's awesome. And that leads me to my next question of if people are interested, if they're a newbie. I think this would be helpful in two parts. If they're a newbie to Enneagram, where would they start? And if they kind of know Enneagram but they want to dive a little bit deeper, start at the same spot, or would you recommend something different? Obviously, book Enneagram for Moms, I think, is great for newbies and people who know a lot, because I know a decent amount and I still learned and took a ton from this book.

Speaker 2: 53:02

Right. So my goal and pretty much everything I do is, when I'm doing workshops or trainings or whatever, that it's an on-ramp right, so anyone can come on at any place and stage. So if you're a newbie, we're going to give you enough so that you feel like you can catch up fairly quickly. It's not going to be everything, but then if you're like an expert, there's still going to be stuff that you're going to be like oh wow, I had never thought of it that way, Like that really helps, and so really with all of our material they can jump in.

Speaker 2: 53:38

I would say, if you're a total newbie and you're just really wanting to understand kind of the Enneagram and the nine types, I would go to our YouTube channel, which is your Enneagram coach, and go to the playlist on Ennea basics and we kind of nuance what the Enneagram is and then I go through all the nine types so you can kind of pick and choose and kind of go around there and that's just a great way to just start. But then obviously my books we have courses. I like actually have coaching courses. Like if you don't have the time to actually have your own personal coach, you can go through your types coaching, but then you could always get your. I love having a personal coach because they can really dial it in for you. You can be authentic and real. It just man, the growth happens so much more quickly.

Speaker 1: 54:23

And the relationship, having a relationship, and the unshaming and the nurturing that happens. I've had someone who coached me through your Enneagram and I'm also your Enneagram coach and your worksheets ooh, the worksheets are like. They're like candy to me. They're like my favorite thing ever. I'm like wait till I give you these worksheets.

Speaker 2: 54:44

Yeah, exactly yeah. So our coaches are really trained in how to break down the personality into these bite-sized lessons that are actually digestible and applicable right away, so that each session you're really accelerating transformation than what you're typically used to. And so any of our coaches are at my Enneagram coachcom. That's where we have our directory, but everything else are at my Enneagram coachcom. That's where we have our directory, but everything else is at your Enneagram coachcom. Now, for those that are like I love this, but I want to actually do it, we also have a become an Enneagram coach course, which is what you did, so that we can set people up, whether you just want to be an expert in, you know, just understanding all the nine types and everything. Or, if you're like, no, I be an expert in just understanding all the nine types and everything. Or if you're like, no, I really want to sit across from someone and help them. So we just really have everything from the newbie all the way up to the expert level. So, yeah, your Enneagram coachcom.

Speaker 1: 55:36

Yeah, and I'll share too. I was telling Beth before we started recording that the reason I went and took it was not so I'm like, oh, I want to be an Enneagram coach, like that's going to be my thing. I went and took it because I really wanted to understand. I started getting some clients who I was just like man the way that my language and my way of approaching this doesn't work for them, and I really deeply need to understand not just how they use those tools, cause I had that. I had that as a coach, but I needed to understand their language and the things that we're getting in their way a lot better and I love that. That's what that training gave me, so it's super great for coaches.

Speaker 2: 56:15

And then not only that, but then it's super helpful when you're a mom cause, then you, it's the same, it's the exact same thing. It's like, wait a second, when I say this to this child, this happens, but that same thing doesn't work for this child. What's going on? And so, yes, I know you're probably sitting there going, but you can't know their type until they're older. Yes, but you at least have this framework of okay. So there's the nine types and I'm noticing this and I'm noticing that I'm asking curious questions, I'm getting to know them and attune to them, but then, when they are older and they name their type, wow, that relationship explodes with so much awareness. You can really show them the love, the care, the attention that they've craved. Like, just make it more specific and nuanced and it just it really opens up that relationship. But then they can actually do it back for you too, and my kids have you'll see a story in the book that shows you how they surprised me one time and nuancing like their own understanding of me and what I needed, and I was like, wait, what this actually works, like this is awesome and like, wow, and you're going to have your ups and downs.

Speaker 2: 57:26

My kids and I, we, they're adults. I haven't I even have a grandchild. We still have our ups and downs, but now we have common language to talk about and we can understand why they got hurt or upset and or me and how to work that out. But I also can allow them in the book we also talk about repairing and apologizing. I can give them the freedom to let me know what happened in their past that I need to recognize and maybe apologize for and restore and heal. And the interesting thing is I know us all us moms are trying so hard for them not to have a day that's hard, right or any pain.

Speaker 2: 58:06

But here's the thing I can give my kids the best of who I am as a type nine, and it can actually land on their personality type in not a great way, and that's not like I'm bad or I've done something wrong, it's just human nature. And so they might grow up and go, mom, like when you did this, it actually landed on me this way or hurt me. Now, if I'm not self-aware, I could go. What Like? No, that was the right thing to do. I was, you know, in the right. You know I could easily do that, whereas now I can go. Oh wow, I really was trying to give you the best of who I am, but, wow, I can see how that landed on you differently. I to give you the best of who I am, but wow, I can see how that landed on you differently. I'm really sorry. And that way they can hear our heart, but also they can start to repair and heal from.

Speaker 1: 58:56

However, they perceived it at that time. Yeah Well, and what you just said is so beautiful. I think one of the biggest griefs of motherhood is realizing that our kids are going to have a human experience, no matter how good of a human we are Like, it doesn't matter. I want to be a really great mother and that's going to mean different things on different days and different seasons. And also, it doesn't matter how great I am. My kids are going to have a human experience from me, from their classmates, from school, from each other.

Speaker 1: 59:24

And isn't it so funny how two kids can be parented by allegedly the same parents? They're for sure not the same parents, because, whether we try to or not, we interact differently with our kids because their nature is different, right, so one kid might trigger you in a way that the other kid doesn't, because their personality is different, and I think a lot of moms will carry guilt or shame around that. And then just I again the Enneagram of this permission of they don't have to work the way that I work. One of the powerful insights it's given me in motherhood is realizing a lot of my two things that are so well-intentioned like they're so well-intentioned. They come from such a loving place. They do not work.

Speaker 1: 1:00:07

For one of my kids and I was playing, she you know, like I said, she loves being into Enneagram stuff because I'm into it, my mom and sister are, so we're always like talking Enneagram and she wants to be involved and so there's a couple types that she has said maybe and she's too young to really know, and I've told her that and it's been like, oh, okay, interesting, I'm going to try next time approaching conflict like this type would. And what's fascinating is, all of a sudden I was like, oh, you respond to it. That because, like, my instinct in conflict is to be like nurturing and loving and give advice and at least right now in this season, that's not what they want that's not, it's not working, it's not.

Speaker 1: 1:00:56

It doesn't feel loving, it feels smothering. And so I have to look at it and be like okay, what else can I try?

Speaker 2: 1:01:03

yeah, I love that. That's exactly the whole point of the book.

Speaker 1: 1:01:07

Yeah. So, as she was, I was like I'm really excited to have her read the little back bits in the back and just see. Like I told her, I was like pick three or four and try on some different things in parenting, cause you know we're entering the teen stage.

Speaker 1: 1:01:21

So it's a new stage for me, so I'm going to need some new tool, tool, things of like. So it's a new stage for me, so I'm going to need some new tool, things of like let's try something different, which is just so fun, it's fun to play with, it's fun to give myself permission that there's nothing wrong with me and there's also nothing wrong with her. There's nothing wrong with my son. We're just different.

Speaker 2: 1:01:41

And you're learning.

Speaker 1: 1:01:42

And we're learning, and I'm learning, and they're learning and there are ways of helping, but it comes from that deep awareness.

Speaker 2: 1:01:49

Yep, absolutely, yeah, well, well said.

Speaker 1: 1:01:52

Yes, is there anything else that like keeps coming up that you want to name? That we like touched on that you wanted to go back on any loops you kind of want to close?

Speaker 2: 1:02:02

The only thing I would probably come back to is that be you, be who God created you to be for your kiddos. And that's hard, because we're bombarded with influencers, speakers, writers, pastors, teachers I don't know whoever you're around Now, that doesn't mean they're all wrong or bad, but some of them definitely are wanting you to just follow what they say, without taking into account who you are, and so I would just filter out what you're hearing, what you're saying, after you've really gotten to know yourself and what really is true for you, and how can you grow versus just following someone else or becoming someone else. So become the best version of yourself.

Speaker 1: 1:02:56

I love that so much. That's a great way to end it. Thank you so much for being here today, beth. I will make sure all of her resources are below. Definitely get her new book, and thank you so much for sharing. This was such a rich, life-giving conversation.

Speaker 2: 1:03:11

Yeah, thanks, rebecca, it was so great being here.

Speaker 1: 1:03:13

Yes, Thanks for hanging out today on the Motherhood Mentor Podcast. If you loved today's episode, share it with a friend or tag me in your stories on Instagram so that we can connect. Take up audacious space in your life life and I'll see you next time.