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The Motherhood Mentor
Welcome to The Motherhood Mentor Podcast your go-to resource for moms seeking holistic healing and transformation. Hosted by mind-body somatic healing practitioner and holistic life coach Becca Dollard.
Join us as we explore the transformative power of somatic healing, offering practical tools and strategies to help you navigate overwhelm, burnout, and stress. Through insightful conversations, empowering stories, and expert guidance, you'll discover how to cultivate resilience, reclaim balance, and thrive in every aspect of your life while still feeling permission to be a human. Are you a woman who is building a business while raising babies who refuses to burnout? These are conversations and support for you.
We believe in the power of vulnerability, connection, and self-discovery, and our goal is to create a space where you feel seen, heard, and valued.
Whether you're juggling career, family, or personal growth, this podcast is your sanctuary for holistic healing and growth all while normalizing the ups and downs, the messy and the magic, and the wild ride of this season of motherhood.
Your host:
Becca is a mom of two, married for 14years to her husband Jay living in Colorado. She is a certified somatic healing practitioner and holistic life coach to high functioning moms. She works with women who are navigating raising babies, building businesses, and prioritizing their own wellbeing and healing. She understands the unique challenges of navigating being fully present in motherhood while also wanting to be wildly creative and ambitious in her work. The Motherhood Mentor serves and supports moms through 1:1 coaching, in person community, and weekend retreats.
Follow on IG: @themotherhoodmentor , send me a dm and let me know you found me through the podcast!
Website: https://www.the-motherhood-mentor.com/
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The Motherhood Mentor
Grief unfiltered: the unspoken truths of navigating grief in the midst of motherhood with Erica Vander Sande
Grief is universal, yet most of the realities of what the experience feels and looks like remains shrouded in silence and stigma. In this heartfelt episode of the Motherhood Mentor Podcast, Becca sits down with one of her best friends Erica to explore the raw and often unspoken aspects of grief, particularly for mothers navigating profound loss. Erica shares her deeply personal journey of losing her mother to breast cancer in 2020, offering a candid look at both the sudden shock of loss and the slow, agonizing preemptive grief that accompanies knowing a loved one’s passing is imminent. And then the “after” the after of grief while navigating young babies and building a business.
Through their conversation, Erica reveals the full spectrum of emotions that come with grief and death—those that society deems acceptable and those that are often ignored or no one names. She speaks about the delicate balance of holding space for grief while also being a pillar of strength for her children. This episode touches on the struggles of feeling isolated in grief, especially when friends and family’s support fades after the funeral, and how important it is to cultivate spaces for ongoing grief-sharing.
Erica’s story highlights the importance of allowing yourself to grieve authentically and openly, embracing both joy and sorrow in equal measure. She reflects on how sharing memories of her mother with her children has helped her heal and keep her mother’s spirit alive. As the conversation deepens, the profound impact of grief on life, love, and connection becomes clear, reminding us that while grief is painful, it can also bring a deeper appreciation for life’s fleeting beauty.
This episode offers a powerful, compassionate exploration of grief as a transformative journey—one that reshapes our relationship with ourselves, our loved ones, and the world around us. Whether you’ve experienced loss or want to better understand it, this episode will offer you solace, understanding, and a sense of connection in a topic too often left unspoken.
About Erica:
Erica Vander Sande is a light worker and psychic medium, deeply committed to helping others find alignment and purpose. As the owner of The Mina Company, Erica has spent over 15 years guiding conscious entrepreneurs to scale their businesses with sustainable strategies rooted in both intuition and expertise. Known for her ability to tap into her clients' strengths and create thriving, long-term marketing plans, she is also a sought-after speaker and mentor. Her new Her new initiative, Breaking Through.
In addition to her work, Erica is a dedicated mother who finds balance through running and a deep appreciation for all things cozy. Her spiritual practice is integral to every part of her life and business, shaping a vision of success that empowers others to break through their own limitations.
Chapter Markers:
0:02 Exploring Grief With Erica
14:23 Navigating Trauma and Support in Grief
20:48 Navigating Grief and Celebration of Life
25:40 Navigating the Depths of Grief
Join us next time as we continue to explore the multifaceted journey of motherhood.
Thank you for tuning in to The Motherhood Mentor. If you enjoyed this episode, don't forget to subscribe, rate, and review us.
Stay connected with us on social media and share your thoughts and experiences tagging @themotherhoodmentor
Welcome to the Motherhood Mentor Podcast. I'm Becca, a somatic healing practitioner and a holistic life coach for moms, and this podcast is for you. You can expect honest conversations and incredible guests that speak to health, healing and growth in every area of our lives. This isn't just strategy for what we do. It's support for who we are. I believe we can be wildly ambitious while still holding all of our soft and hard humanity as holy. I love combining deep inner healing with strategic systems and no-nonsense talk about what this season is really like. So grab whatever weird health beverage you're currently into and let's get into it. Welcome to today's episode of the Motherhood Mentor Podcast. I'm already just smiling so big because today my guest is one of my best friends, erica, and we have talked about doing so many different podcasts. I'm pretty sure our Voxer. We've laughed before that like if our Voxer channel could get ripped of the personal information, it would be one of the most incredible podcasts you've ever heard in your life, like the it really would be the best.
Speaker 1:So I met Erica in a mastermind I'm trying to remember. Is that 2021? How long ago was this?
Speaker 2:No, this also has so much to do with my grief journey. It was 2020. Right around there.
Speaker 1:Spring Like no February, because it was my birthday weekend.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I came on right after my mother had passed. So yeah, it was okay 2020, which is wild.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that is wild. So today, erica is with me. Me and today's podcast is going to be really fun. It's the type of episode that I've wanted to do for a while, which is her and I are going to have a discussion as friends about grief, because one of the things that we have talked about often is that there's so many conversations that women are craving to have that are brave and honest and hope-filled, but also just honest, and the conversation we wanted to start with is a really just cute, easy, lighthearted topic of grief. Cute, cute. It's really cutesy, no, but it's such a part of life that I don't think a lot of people talk about or talk about well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we avoid this part. I think we disassociate from it. We want to put it into a box cute box and we put it somewhere in a space because it's too hard and we don't want to touch it. And especially if we're not going through it, why would I take that grief box out? Yeah, so we're going, going through it. Why?
Speaker 1:would I? Why would I take that grief box out Like yeah, yeah, so we're going to just talk about grief today. So today's podcast a little bit more casual, giving you permission and language and hopefully something useful or at least feeling less alone in it. So, Erica, will you just introduce yourself?
Speaker 2:Yes, I don't know how to introduce myself, like if I'm being. If we're going to talk about grief, I don't know how to introduce myself without explaining how grief was so intertwined with so many aspects of who I am, which is weird to say. But I think once you get I'm like four years removed from losing my person that I can see how the journey that I was on changed everything for me. So I've owned a business now for six years and it's a marketing agency. I have an awesome team over there and really created that from the emphasis changes I brought on one client and then another. But at the whole, reason why I did this was because I wanted the capacity to take care of my mom better, who was my person. That passed. The whole reason why I met you, becca, was because our coach at the time thought that having a community of women, as I was had lost my mom, would be really helpful, which it ended up being. And I met you and I am a mom of two. I have a nine-year-old and a five-year-old girl and girls, and I had to become a better mom. I had to step up because I also had to help my family through grief as well. So I feel like grief has morphed me into I don't want to say a better person.
Speaker 2:I don't think that there's any awards for having gone through grief, but it has affected every aspect of my being and I'm really proud of where I am now. I'm proud of who I am today. But that's a little bit about me and I also am coming at this a little bit. I am on a journey of I'm stepping into being a medium. I have always been really, really close to spirit and to God and, quite honestly, I think that this conversation going through grief has actually is. It is what has brought me here. I don't think I would have been thrown so urgently into this next phase of my life if it hadn't been for the grief that I went through as well. So everything really was because of the conversation we're about to have.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think you know, one of the conversations we were having in Boxer is the timeline of grief. That no one tells you. And you know, I think I'm trying to think there's like an official name for like the stages of grief that no one tells you. And you know, I think I'm trying to think there's like an official name for like the stages of grief, but like when we were, which is just like what? No, first of all. No, I don't. I'm yet to meet a person who's like ah yes, this really helped me as a human being and I was giggling when I was.
Speaker 1:I was I was taking notes, thinking about like what are the things we've talked about in Voxer that I wanted to bring to this conversation, and it was like man Erica needs to write a book called what to expect when you're grieving, cause you know that book like what to expect when you're expecting one. I don't actually really love that book, cause it's like everything that could go wrong. I do love that they name what it's like, what could happen, what it might look like, and I'm sure there's resources out there. But I'm curious if we start with, like the before chapter of grief, because we've talked about when your mom started getting sick and like that grief that happened before she died.
Speaker 2:Before, before she died, before she, I think it's. I think it's helpful to back up even further than that of like, yeah, there are two really straightforward paths in in grief. It either it is something that it's thrust upon you and it is a surprise. So you had no preparation. You lost a person and it was sudden, there was no time to prepare. There is a lot of grief and a lot of like that bandaid got torn off so quickly and there was no. You couldn't even mentally, you couldn't physically prepare, it just happened. And that is a whole nother conversation. It like gives me the like chills, because that's a whole nother way of experiencing grief and there needs to be, there needs to be a space for that of like. It's shocking and it's trauma filled and it's emotional. And then there's a second path that feels just as many feelings, but it's the preparations, it's knowing that somebody that you love is going to die and having to not only mentally prepare, but then you are also physically like.
Speaker 2:I was thinking back to this this morning and I was like man, I am not the matriarch in my family. I have never have been, it's not my role, but I remember when I was going through the hardest depths of grief. I was also getting these titles assigned to me because I was I'm an only child. I'm the only one, so I was the only one that was communicating. I'm the only one, so I was the only one that was communicating. I was the only one that was talking to the doctors and then talking to the family and trying to be adults and thoughtful in my delivery, to make sure that the I didn't say the wrong thing to the person who was going to go off the deep end and and trying to like cope through all of that and then also be a mother, like there's, there's some, there's two very different paths and I think that there are parts that are really similar in this journey, but I just want to honor that. And then, so I know the most my, my path was the. We knew for two years before my mom was going to pass away that the end was coming. We didn't know how quickly it was going to be, but we knew that the end was going to approach.
Speaker 2:And first I want to like explain my person. I feel like a big part of who I am is who my mom was, and I think it probably says a lot of how I handled this because of who she was, and we were really, really different. My mom was like happy-go-lucky Everything was always good, everything was always fine. She was the breadwinner in my family. My dad was a stay-at-home dad but didn't have so much of the warm, cozy vibe of a stay-at-home parent as you would assume. So I had a strange upbringing.
Speaker 2:We moved around a lot as well, and my mom was somebody like she was the Pinterest mom before. Pinterest was even like ever a thing. Like she made everything over the top awesome and she had this way of like. She could see she always attracted people who had had really hard backgrounds like just tough backgrounds and she was able to see past the tough exterior, the rigidness, and she was able to see your light, whatever that was, your light, whatever that was.
Speaker 2:But on the flip side of that, whenever you're going through really hard things like losing your mother, she wouldn't ever entertain the negative thought. She would never entertain the I'm dying. It was always. No, this is just another battle. This is just another thing that we need to do another trial. We need to do another test medication and up until like a month before she passed, she was still on a trial, Like she was still trying to fight, and that, I think, says a lot about who I am, and in the process I was just like but why are we doing this?
Speaker 2:Because you're dying, and no one wanted to talk about the fact that she was dying, and so it's a really I think that's an important part because in your preparatory, if you're in that phase of like, you are preparing for someone to pass, there's a lot of roles that you take on.
Speaker 2:And then there's also sometimes, if you are the person like me where you're waving the flag of like why are we still fighting right now? Why can't we just sit with each other? Can't we just love each other? Can't we just talk about this is the end and what does that look like for all of us? But not everyone emotionally is available to be able to do that. So it's a really tough landscape to be in when you are in the preparation stage. There's so much involved in it. I feel like I can't even give good advice because I only know the people in my life that were involved and all their different roles and what their emotional capacity was. But I just want to hold space for that of like. That phase is so full of complications and it can last so long Sometimes it's years. Sometimes it's a tough one, sometimes it's years, sometimes it's six months.
Speaker 1:It's a tough one and the complexity and the nuance of hope being something of it's like. I think when people say hope, they think of like this really positive, really good feeling in their body. But actually, like when I think of, sometimes when I had the most hope, it was in the hardest parts of my life where it was like I don't like nothing good can possibly come of this right. Like how, like holding onto hope when someone is quite literally dying but no one's talking about it, did that feel helpful or did that feel hurtful? Like what was hope like for you in that season? Or would you use that word? I wouldn't have used that word. It sounds like they would have used that word.
Speaker 2:I think is what I'm hearing is like they were holding out hope. My mom was holding out hope. My mom never wanted to talk about a future that she wasn't in it, and that was really, really hard when you have. Gosh, how old was my oldest? She was four, four or five, and then my youngest I mean when my mom was really was passing she was almost a year old.
Speaker 2:So I have these two babies in front of me that tangibly need to understand what's happening in front of me, that tangibly need to understand what's happening, and me seeing the writing all over the wall and the doctors even like that's the interesting thing is, when someone's dying, not all doctors will just tell you that you're dying, which is also wild. In the process, Like they're also, I think they are holding hope. They're coming at it from a doctor mindset of like well, we can try this or we can try this, or we can try this. And I looked into, I remember death doulas when I was like, immediately after my mom had passed, I looked into that and I was like man, I wish we had had a death doula, Somebody who can guide you through the process. That understands it. Well, and doctors are not death doulas. If you are in this. Look that up. If you are in this phase, Doctors will just be coming at it from that medical practitioner standpoint.
Speaker 2:When I think people who especially don't know much about death and that process of dying like you just kind of need somebody who can tell you the real real of what's going on. And how much longer do we fight this? How much longer do we just do we hold out for quality of life and quality of life for everyone involved, Like making sure that all of us have some quality to what is coming in the, in the weeks and the days ahead of you? Yeah, and then then it hits you like a train wreck, and this is where I think both of those paths that I was talking about they kind of combine Because one person, the bandaid was ripped off of where you just lost someone. Suddenly the other side, you've been preparing for this and preparing for this and then all of a sudden the bandaid is ripped.
Speaker 2:You probably had an idea I know I had an idea of what it was going to be like to like say goodbye, to let go, but then you don't think about the week after, Like what does that even look like? You don't think about the hours after. Well, my mom passed at home and you don't think about the fact that, like she's still there, I still have to sit here while she's still there. Like those are the pieces that society. They would just gloss right over. That it reminds me of giving birth to the girls of.
Speaker 2:Like people focus so much on the baby and what's going to come out of. They don't talk about what mom's going to go through in those couple hours right after having the baby and we don't even stand there for that conversation. But some of those, some of the most traumatic things can come after that, and the same for losing somebody. Some of the most traumatic things can be in a space with people that you may or may not like, because it's not about you, it's about this person and who they loved. And you're all in this space together, going through one of the most traumatic experiences together in this life, I think, and it just gets ripped off and that's a tough one. It's not the hardest part. It's not the hardest part, but it is a defining moment, I think in grief is when that person leaves.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I just have to pause and take all that in, and I've told you this before of. I love listening to you talk about grief and not in the like oh yay, I love hearing this. That like my what one of my best friends went through, but it's like you have a way of sharing it that I I know so many women are going to hear, and it's going to be like a balm, because no one's ever talked about that out loud, no one's ever shared what it was like to be there, and even you know you were talking about preparing. You were using the word preparing, but it's not. But it's like. It's one thing to know what's coming, to have an idea of, like, what you're about to walk through. It's a whole nother to feel it and then to be there experiencing it and witnessing it.
Speaker 1:I think this is a very common human experience, where we live in a culture that makes us think there's some way we can do this that will make it easy. There's some pretty bow we can tie on this. There's some way that you can prepare for birth or motherhood or losing a loved one. That will somehow make it easier. And I'm not really sure. I'm not really sure we can Like do you feel like there was anything you could have possibly done that either that you did to prepare you or that you could have done? Because I think this is. I think people are so afraid, like if they are in that stage of like the grief that will come, which unfortunately all of us are there, some people are just more tangibly aware that grief will come.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:But I'm curious, like is there something that helps prepare or support you when you're in that part?
Speaker 2:I think for me and my that part so you have to remember, I was, I was newer to, I was a new mom, like I had little babies where I couldn't, I couldn't just disassociate from the whole situation. It was like no, I had to go from taking care of my very sick mother to then going home to taking care and breastfeeding my baby. Like there was physically no space and the only thing that I could if I could like go back, is let myself have more space. But even then, like life doesn't always give you those cards and I just want to acknowledge that Like you can tell people, yeah, give yourself all the space You're going to need, all the healing. Like don't work too hard, life doesn't do that, life doesn't always afford that and I feel like you just need to give yourself. What I would say is don't let yourself disassociate. Like if you can do, if you can do anything and we can't even always, like we can't always control that and I'm even aware of that Like sometimes your body does that out of safety because you are going through so much that the only way to stay safe is like to disassociate from what's going on. But I am glad, like I don't think.
Speaker 2:I think there were parts of it, and death is graphic. I also want to bring that up. I had to go to therapy to just deal with what I saw, because I didn't even know what I was going to see and when I did after the fact I had to go to therapy to deal with that there was genuine things that I couldn't sleep at night because I had seen. And I think if I had disassociated from it, if I had ignored it, if I had said I'm just going to put that in a box. We lost my mom, it is what it is. I'm just going to like disconnect from my feelings about this. I think I would probably still be dealing with a lot of the grief, but in different ways.
Speaker 2:What I learned about grief is that if you don't work through these emotions, however is best for you, it comes out in other ways, like I worked with an acupuncturist as one like coach kind of in the process, and I remember her saying I'm so glad that you're coming here, because what I see when people don't deal with their grief is their body starts having reactions, they'll have autoimmune disorders, they'll have other diseases that start popping up.
Speaker 2:And it's because 10 years ago, when they lost their person, they didn't deal with it and so their body's dealing with it now. And so that's the one thing is like, oh gosh, girlfriend, like try to work, like try to be present and try to be there and get people to help you, especially in those deep dark moments where you just need somebody that's there looking at you. It was like I needed somebody to hold my face and be like okay, we're going to do this together, like you're not alone, rather than the collective was really nice and my family did come together, but it was very short-sighted, it was just for a little while and no one was holding my space. It was like we were holding community space. So having people in your court is another really big important thing.
Speaker 1:Feel the feelings and have people that can be there holding you Well and especially since you know, especially in your story and I'm sure other women will resonate too especially if they're the one in the community who is needing to be the emotional, spiritual, social rock, like if they're needing to be the caregiver within their community and you don't feel like you have people you have to hold it together, together, versus having a space where you are allowed to fall apart because there's someone else there who doesn't need that, who doesn't have that.
Speaker 1:Someone can hold the space without needing to be held. Because I think, especially you know you are a mother. You had so much other things going on and you were a daughter. You had so much other things going on and you were a daughter. It's like you were a mother, but you were also that like just the vulnerability of that is so brutal and beautiful and I think it's one of the things that has made you sensitive in the best way of like. You've touched those things so closely and you stayed present for it and embodied and it brought an aliveness in you, like it built this capacity in you to be with yourself and other people in a way that not everybody has.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that's the only like so many people avoid grief and I'm like and there isn't any like happy party, that's like you went through grief, so now you get this like that doesn't exist. But I do think what you just said is true is and I tried to articulate this when I do talk to other people especially if you're in the like your thirties and you are younger and you lose your parents, I feel like it's a different ball game. You're still so new to parenting and then you lose your. It doesn't matter if you had a good relationship or not. You, you're losing your core parent foundation, um.
Speaker 2:But I do think that it has given me this amount of empathy that I wasn't able I could have never even dreamed of before, before I was definitely somebody who, if you brought up, if you were sad, if you had lost somebody, I would kind of just say I'm sorry for your loss and move on like I didn't know what else to say. So that's what I would say and that's so typical and it and it's so normal. And then also, when it's happening to you, when somebody tells you that you're just like great thanks, like that's not helpful at all. And now I think I can hold space and it's like this club I never wanted to be a part of and I don't wish upon anyone, but I do hold the space of like I really understand the complexities of what is going on and you know, and I love you and that's you can't really say anything else Like and it's okay to just and what one of the best things.
Speaker 2:I think we talked about this as like what could you say to somebody, especially in those moments Like we're still talking about that moment where it just happened, so like people are sending you condolences, cards and flowers and like all the things the best thing to do for those people.
Speaker 2:They just they have a giant golf ball size hole in their heart and all they want to do is talk about their person. And all anyone wants to do is to not talk about the person because it hurts so much to talk about it. And so like just I remember some people would just sit with me and just tell me stories about my mom. That would make me laugh and I was just like that's, that's all I. That was the only medicine that can like help this big hole is like just the stories. I didn't know the people that would reach out, send me at like I knew your mom 20 years ago, like or whatever, and like they would go into the detail about their favorite story about her. And those are the ones that I saved, like it was the only medicine that made it feel better.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm curious if you feel this way, but what?
Speaker 1:What that's bringing up in me is that they were willing to actually talk about her and celebrate her and remember her, instead of making grief, this dirty little secret that we need to pretend didn't happen. Where we have to like, let's all pretend it didn't happen. Or even I'm trying to remember, if I don't remember when this conversation happened, but I was talking to someone and we were mentioning that, like no one actually uses the word death, like they say passing away, but it's like they're not, like we avoid it as if it's not an unavoidable part of life, like this is part of living, this is part of existing on this world, this is part of everyone's journey and everyone is going to experience this at one point or another. It might be earlier, it might be sooner, it might be sudden, it might be long and drawn out. I'm curious. Earlier you mentioned the preparing wasn't the hardest part and preparing being like the before. Yeah, what was the hardest part? And did like did you expect that to be the hardest part for you?
Speaker 2:For me it's. I think there's a couple of things I mean, like I said, sometimes witnessing things like I don't even want I I wish we didn't have to go through like just how someone dies If you are there and present for someone as they are dying is graphic, is like I remember thank goodness for my mom's best friend she had. She has lost a lot of family members in her life and I was so thankful to her because she was coming over every day and it like she wasn't telling me too much but she was telling me just enough so that the next phase wasn't like a complete shock to me when it was happening and I was so thankful for that. But I think what I didn't expect was after the fact, I knew that it was going to be sad. I knew I had lost my best friend, I had lost the person in my life who took the best care of me and that was so genuinely hard to lose. It's still something that I'm dealing with today of like how do I replace that? Like only I can and I can go down that rabbit hole. But what really is tough is dealing with everything you just went through is okay Now, like a good example is I had to step up and I had to be this communicator and I had to be this person. Well, they didn't need me anymore and so I'm stepping back from that. I don't need to be that anymore. I don't need to keep track of her medications anymore, I don't need to communicate with the. There was like a team of us that were taking care of her on the day-to-day, like we don't have to do that anymore. And then it turns into like the phases of truly letting her go. So like going through her house, finding the things, like taking what I want.
Speaker 2:I was an only child. Thank goodness I didn't have to argue with siblings but like I think that's another layer of it's just like it's the okay. After the fact, you have to deal with what you've seen, what you went through, the roles you are now setting down, that before you had to pick up and everyone, what I have. What I thought was fascinating was relatively like in the last, in the six months after my mom had passed, it was like people were stepping into our community. We had community. I'm so thankful for it. They stepped into it in beautiful ways, like, but then time only allows for so much, yeah, and I started stepping away, and so we had all this support, we had all this love, we had really consistent figures from both my kids and for us, um, and then they slowly started dissipating and that was the. I think that was when real, real life starts like just slapping you in the face of like everyone's going back to their lives now. It's time for you to go back to your life now.
Speaker 1:And yet your life is still just my life was still shattered.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and and this is when I think the real, real grief really hits is like when everything's dissolved away, like I remember my stepdad dealing with it with a certain way, my husband even dealing with it a certain way like her best friend, and some people are still trying to like get everyone together, and meanwhile others are just like no, I'm done, I don't want to do that anymore. And you start. That's when I think it just got really spiky. Like I just felt like thorns on a rose of like Ooh, I wasn't expecting that person to do that, wow, like we can't talk about her anymore. We can't, but you don't know. It's like a bomb. Like you don't know it until you step on it, like on the ground, like that's how it felt afterwards and I think that's the piece that is very unexpected. You just don't know that that's what's going to happen. You want everyone to come together and it's happy-go-lucky and we're all going to help take care of each other, but at some point, everyone else is going to go back to their life and you have to deal with everything that just happened or not deal. Like you get a choice in the matter and that was so intertwined, like at the same time I was trying to grow a business and I was raising girls and I was, you know, I was the mom. I've always been really, really honest with my kids about grief, which doesn't work for everybody, but it's worked really well for us. Doesn't work for everybody, but it's worked really well for us.
Speaker 2:But I remember like I was constantly crying in the car, like anytime I could just have that, even that little bit of space. If I'm sitting in the front seat, you can't see my face, I would be like bawling in the front seat. And Willa, my oldest, she had gotten to a point where she is such an empath and she was starting to pick up on it and she was just like mommy, what's going on? Why are you? Why are you always crying? And so I just told her I was like well, I saw this thing, or like I just had this thought and I just really, really miss grandma. And then having to hold space for her because she'd be like I really miss grandma too, I was crying last night. And so we're just sitting there like in the car on the way to somewhere and having all these feelings and I think you have to as a parent.
Speaker 2:I had to figure out how to work through that and those are the things that I think it's like just constant.
Speaker 2:I just I imagine it like constant disruptions, like stabbing, like okay, the heart already hurts, okay, we're going to do it again and again, and again and again Until you start working through these feelings and I feel like the sun does come out. It comes out, but it's very slow and that's sometimes the hardest part is like I know we're going to get through it, but this is like the slowest and even today, like there are moments that's fewer and far in between now, but like there are moments where, you know, I do think my mom was the reason why I went on the spiritual journey. It's very common for people, when they're going through grief or having something huge happen in their life, that they go towards the spiritual side, and I'm glad that I did, because I think it's brought me a lot more closure than I think I ever would have had on my own. But again, that's that's my journey, that was, that was how this projected me into, into that path.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah For your girl.
Speaker 1:I'm just thinking of, I do wonder, as parents, but even just as people, if just being able to like openly grieve um like I can I don't really have language for this yet, but I and we haven't talked about this quite yet either of like funerals, like I just keep thinking about, like they're so buttoned up, oh, like, it's just so, like I think of like the public way that, like we quote unquote community grieve, and it's just like I feel like all of it has to happen in secret.
Speaker 1:And then you talked about like that time where, like there was like this new shock wave, this new wave of grief and how it looked and how it shifted, and I think one we need more language and awareness around the reality that, like there, there is no such thing as like, oh, I lost someone who I love the most in this world.
Speaker 1:There's going to be moments where that feels okay. There's going to be moments where there's like the love you feel for them, but like what, if it's okay that we never expect or need it to always be good? Yes, I think in my life I think of like the things and the places that I've grieved the most, and the thing that has brought the most relief for me is this wild permission that it doesn't have to be pretty in order to be healthy, it doesn't have to be buttoned up and productive and I think we forget that crying is healthy, grief is healthy, feeling anger or rage or disappointment, or all of the wide experience of emotions that we have within this container, experience of grief, just the dynamic range that can come from it.
Speaker 2:I agree. Looking back, I think there were people in my life that I'm I can I remember them like being very, very non-emotional about it and even then I was like, oh, that can't be good for you, like the amount of feelings we all had. It was. I was like I would be nervous if somebody were not feeling and it's different depending upon your relationship with the person who passed. Like I've had grandparents who have passed that I really didn't know, like people in my life that have, and that there's no emotion there, right. Like I, I just didn't know you and I'm sorry.
Speaker 2:But if it's someone and you're you're pushing the emotions aside and not wanting to deal with it today, it's like at some point they're going to come back. You're going to get super angry about somebody cutting in front of you and that's going to have nothing to do with why you're angry and it's it's just going. It's gonna be like that annoying, like kid it's not actually a kid, but like who's constantly like hi, I'm here, I'm here, I'm here and you're just gonna keep pushing it away until it like explodes or implodes, implodes.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, one of the two. It's either going to explode on others, or it's going to implode in on you.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Grief is and you've said it before but like we can avoid it all we want. I wish this culture had more words for grief. Yeah, it really does. Like every phase that I just talked about, like I wish there was a word that could just say I'm in this space, but I don't know who would understand. Like that's the phase, like sure, you're angry, you're sad or you're dealing with a lot.
Speaker 1:I don't know if a word is enough. I think this is where, like, we need poetry, we need music, we need conversations, we need like stories because, like, one word isn't enough, like a cute little inspo quote on Instagram, like not going to cut it, like it's too. Like I think and I think that's the problem is that we've tried to create this like pretty box and this pretty bow of like what grief is and how it looks, and it's like grief is wild. Grief is a wild thing and you can't keep trying to like tame it.
Speaker 1:But I am curious, you went through, I mean, this is a big, significant grief in the midst of a season that is already hard as fuck on its own, like I'm just thinking of, like you know, I look at my motherhood and I, you know it wasn't all ideal conditions but like, as far as ideal conditions go, I had it pretty good and it was impossibly hard. So, thinking of that season, while navigating a mom who is either pre actively dying, like in the pre phase, and then the grief how do you keep yourself together and hold yourself together? Because I have. I have coached some clients through that season and I know one of the big things that comes up constantly, especially for moms, is like how the hell do you give yourself room and space to fall apart without falling apart Because there's people who need you and you are in a season of life where you don't want to miss this, and yet you're having this thing that takes you out of it.
Speaker 1:And one of the things that I think so much about grief is, like the best part about it is that life does go on, and the worst part about it is that life goes on Like life did not stop for you. You didn't get to, like there wasn't time or space. Can you just talk about what that was like, even if there's no pretty like? Here's how to do it.
Speaker 2:I feel like and you know I do life a little different than Mo Like I am very type B. I am not that perfectionistic nature, if that makes any sense. So I already have this messiness that I kind of embrace and I do love about myself, like I'm, like I love that part of me, like that's who I am. But I do think there was nothing pretty that was going on. So if you're coming at it from a perfectionist standpoint like Ooh, try your best to surrender that, because there is nothing that's going to be pretty and perfect here. You're not going to be able to stick to the. My kids only watch 30 minutes or less of TV every single day, like those rules that you have for yourself.
Speaker 1:Like the timeline, but yes, let me have a plan for how to do this.
Speaker 2:I was before I started having grief and now we're just going to stick to that plan because we need consistency and that's like that's not going to work and I hate to like I say that to give permission, not to say like, oh, that's a really bad idea, but it's like no, like I gave you permission to just let the kids watch the TV for five hours, like just let them, just let them watch a movie like the Lion King, like watch all of them. Sure, because you mom, erica mom, could not show up well in that season. So I had to let them do what they needed and I was there, like if we were crying, if we were upset, if we needed to have a deeper conversation. I was able to show up because I gave myself some breath in between this, this space, and I feel like that is an important part of it's just like letting yourself settle. I remember there was a point it was like the summer that I had started my business. My mom's cancer had spread to her brain, so she had. I never actually said that she had stage four metastatic breast cancer, which means it was definitely it had already spread into multiple places. That summer that I had started my business. I had started it in like April or May. By June it had spread to her brain. So she was having brain surgery and like having all these conversations.
Speaker 2:And I just remember at one point my pregnancy was really, really complicated as well. I had placenta previa, so I was having to go to the hospital at a drop of a hat, like if I started bleeding. I was bleeding the whole pregnancy. If I had a bleeding spell, I had minutes to get to the hospital before I needed to call an ambulance. So if I couldn't get there fast enough, I was calling an ambulance. And I just remember Adam and I sitting in this car, my husband and I sitting in the car outside of my mom's hospital. She was having brain surgery. I got had a bleeding spell and they didn't have a labor and delivery wing, and so we were sitting there and I'm Googling where to go and Adam just being like what else? What else could go wrong here? Like my previous company that I had? I feel like it was just like layers of like crap on top of crap. I, my previous company that had um, fired me, which is a whole nother story in and of itself. They were just trying to. They were basically taking me to unemployment court and I had found that out the day before, um, that I was going to have to go of like show up on the phone for this court, and so, like that had happened, I was starting this business.
Speaker 2:It felt like from ashes of like I don't know what I'm doing, I'm just trying to do my best to like I was having to go to the ER, my mom was having brain surgery and I just remember, like at some point it's laughable. Like we were laughing in the car because I was like what else is going to happen? Like you've thrown it all at me, thanks, and thankfully, like in that moment, I had a really I have a really stable husband who was just like laughing with me. Like was just like, yeah, there's nothing, there's nothing else that we can do. And I think, maybe just coming at it from a human perspective, like I don't think I could have come at it from a robotic we're just going to button this up and make this this is all fine, everything's fine.
Speaker 2:I just wasn't in that space and I think that gave me a lot of license to laugh and to cry what I needed to cry and to let my kids watch endless amounts of TV when they needed to watch endless amounts of TV, and I gave myself an abundance of grace, like my mom, because I was with her.
Speaker 2:She was dying for nine days before she actually passed, so I was with her every minute of those nine days. That was also my daughter was breastfeeding and she wouldn't take a bottle, so because that happened, I had to stop breastfeeding my daughter at the same time, and so, like, these big milestones in motherhood were coexisting with death, and I just told myself, like this is what it is Like, we're just going to let this happen and I'm just not going to fight it because I can't fight anymore. These are not the things I'm going to be fighting for right now. And so, just giving yourself a lot of grace and a lot of license that, like, life isn't going to be like this forever, it's just right now. So just do what you need to do right now, give yourself the space that you need and don't be so hard on yourself.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's. It's almost like you know, if I could, if I could button that up a little bit into like language, it's like you learned how to be okay with not being okay, and I think that's probably one of the greatest gifts in my life. And also, like when I'm sitting with people, I think, especially with grief. There's so many people who need us to be okay because they haven't found how to be okay within themselves when they're not okay, and so there's this like paralysis or disassociation that comes up when people aren't okay, because we expect everyone to just be walking around happy all of the time and feeling good, and the reality is that, like no, we're okay, like this is part of being human, this is a part of the experience, and it doesn't feel good.
Speaker 1:It doesn't feel good but it's like you found a way to not be grasping for control yeah to, to find some like I'm trying there's oh, there's this word I'm trying to think of of, like you weren't grasping. You had this like permission and space to just be in it and to not and to not spiral in it and make it mean something bigger than it needed to be, while also acknowledging what it was.
Speaker 2:How you button that up was just so perfect. It's like there's no perfect way of doing this. There just isn't. And if you, if that's your quest, like I don't think you're going to find it and you just need to find people who will love you and who will be on this journey with you. Like Becca, I don't know if you even realize this, but, like, you were on the journey from the very beginning with me and, yes, like at first you may not have realized how deep that journey was, but you, you held that space for me and you were one of those people that like held my face of. Like, what do you need?
Speaker 2:And if there's anything like, even if you haven't experienced grief and you're just trying to support someone else in this, it's like just be really, really present in there for the people who are going through it. Just love them. Like you can bring them dinner and, yes, those things are helpful, but it's like, but just like, love them, because they need the love right now. And I feel, like you did that. This feels like a full circle moment for me at this moment, like you did that for me, and it's just so neat to be able to tell the story after the fact, and you still can Like there's still anniversaries, there's still. This doesn't end, it's not over, and I think that's the beauty of it. It's also the hard part of it, but I think that's the beauty of it too.
Speaker 1:It's like honor your people. On the flip side, I wonder what does grief look like in this season for you? Like after the after, the after the after? Yeah, is there's always that different wave.
Speaker 2:There's always that different but like, how is grief showing up? And how are you showing up to grief in this season? Like, what does that look like for you? For me, it's the disappointment, the deep. There's a deep disappointment that is grief now of this is see, this is the part that I'm like yeah, that's fresh, it's raw. Like, yeah, my mom, we had a really complicated like history, but if can I cuss yeah, it was hitting me.
Speaker 2:Erica, of course. I like if shit was hitting the fan which it does this like it's a constant right, like things happen in life. Like my mom was the person that I called every single time, and so every time you shit's hitting the fan, you have this like extra little rip inside that says can't call her, yeah, and people are so sweet, especially my, like, the older women in my lives they see that and they understand that and they'll even tell me like you can call me, but I'm like, but you're not her and I I don't need a replacement. Like I just want her, yeah. And so it's having this like it is it's a disappointment, and so it's having this like it is, it's a disappointment, a deep disappointment. I've never felt something so deep of like I need her. Here I have my babies are now not little babies anymore, they're five and they're nine and we're going through some stuff that I just want my mom here, like I just want her advice. I wish I would have known to ask these questions and, like I don't have, I just want to ask my mom. I don't want to ask another adult, I don't want to ask another like family member, I just want my mom in her way, and I think that's that disappointment is really hard. And then, on the flip side and I think I've told you this before like the alcohol boxer, like let Becca know when something really good happens On the flip side, this is you don't expect this before, before you go through grief, but when really really good things happen, like the best, like I, this is the best thing that's happened all year I'm like everything is falling into alignment. This feels so, so good.
Speaker 2:It's like the same feeling of disappointment, of like and I can't call him and I can't tell him. And I can yes, I will. I will do things that like help my soul to calm a little bit. Like I will speak out loud and sometimes I'll pretend like she's sitting next to me in the car and I'll tell her and I know she's there and I know she's listening. This is me and my spiritual side. I'll tell her and I know she's there and I know she's listening. This is me and my spiritual side. I know that she's listening.
Speaker 2:But it's not the same as like picking up the phone and her saying hey, sweetie, like in her voice and like being like, oh my gosh, the best thing ever happened today. Those are the pieces that you don't expect, and it just it feels like it's this constant underlying undertone thing of I am a daughter who is motherless, who is mothering two daughters, and that's, that is what I will forever have in my life, that will forever be my title and it's okay, like I can hold space, of like, and we're going to be okay and we're still going to love her and we are still going to talk to her and we're still going to honor her and have grandma days, which is what we do to honor her on her birthday, um, so that my girls know who she is.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I just have to sit with that for a second. I just the word peace comes up, but it's not the kind of peace I think most people think they're looking for. Like there's no resolution in this right, and I think so many people, we want there to be a resolution right, like me and you, we're both fix it people, we're both solve it people. We're both. Shit hits the fan. How do we, how do we, come and fix the fan and clean up the shit and make make sure it doesn't happen again.
Speaker 1:And yet grief and life is one of those things. Like there are just some places and pieces of life and our stories that like there, there doesn't need to be a way to pretty this up, like it just is. It just is. And yet there's a beauty in what you're sharing and yet, like it's a, it's brutal, like it's brutal and it's beautiful of like how you've built humanity and this aliveness into your being.
Speaker 1:And even like your daughters I think of like, I don't know, maybe there is a way we prepare for grief, because I think of your daughters and I'm like, wow, they have been able to have someone talk about it, yeah, someone show them, and they've experienced and watched these waves after waves and openly, and there's, there's language for them. They're going to have language. They're going to like, face something in their lives that they didn't see coming and they're going to remember watching mom cry in her car and they're going to remember like that. That's okay, because that's how they're going to experience it, in a way that they'll have that maybe, I think, as mothers especially thinking of like, how do we show up to parenting? By showing up to our own experience of life.
Speaker 2:I agree, like all I can say is I sure hope so. Like I didn't have the tools for grief, my mom's parents are still alive, like I don't think she ever really my mom or my dad. They never needed to have those tools. It was not something that they needed to have and and so, if anything, like I am happy that I've given them, my, my children, space to work through grief and disappointment and let down, and you know, there have been family members in this journey that are no longer really a part of our journey anymore, and I feel like we've been able to have really honest conversations. How do we have honest conversations with our kids about why we don't talk to so-and-so anymore? And that's all really healthy stuff, that's all really healthy, but it's hard healthy stuff and it's hard healthy.
Speaker 1:It's not like the fun healthy, because I think a lot of times when we think of motherhood, when we think of a good mother, we think of those like fun moments. We think of those like precious moments of, like really beautiful celebration. It's like, yeah, those are, those are great too. But like really healthy motherhood is is also like grief and disappointment and anger, and teaching our babies that like we still go through shit as an adult. Like I hope my kids know that when they get to adulthood, nothing is pretty imperfect. I don't want to give them the impression that just because they're in a happy, healthy marriage, things are just going to be smooth as butter. Like I don't want them to think of chasing their dreams and building a business as something that's going to be cute and easy. I don't want them to think that they're going to get here and they won't have to face grief or profound disappointment. And it's dissatisfaction and it's like I hope, because that was one of my deepest wounds.
Speaker 1:Now I'm turning the light on me for a minute, so I want to go back to you, but there is this.
Speaker 1:That's something that is coming up strong in me of listening to your story of when I got to adulthood, I had this idea that once I got, there would be some sort of end, there would be some sort of happy ending, and I think that's what I'm getting at is, I think, people who are going into grief. I think we want to give them a happy ending and I don't know if that actually helps us. I don't know if that gives us what we actually need. I think we need people to tell us there is no happy ending and you're still going to somehow be okay, like that's, maybe that's hope for me, like hope for me is no longer there's some pretty perfect ending. There is no pretty perfect ending. And somehow the miraculous still shows up, the sun still shines, you make deep, meaningful friendships and beautiful memories with your daughters and your mother and, like things somehow keep living, the one thing that, like I wish, the one thing that I wish everyone could experience.
Speaker 2:So, somebody who has had deep grief, what I do wish everyone else around me could understand I have a profound appreciation for life now. Some days I forget, some days I get lost in the day to day and I'm annoyed and like life is lifing. But in general, I have a profound appreciation and there are things that I have to work through in that of like you don't think about it of somebody who hasn't lost a parent, but I struggle with the idea of like am I going to live it? Of somebody who hasn't lost a parent, but I struggle with the idea of like am I going to live past 56 because my mom and so I have to work through that? Like that's my, those are my things to work through.
Speaker 2:But in that space, though, I have a profound appreciation for life and I feel like that's also what grief will teach you, whether or not you want. It is like it's all ending for us, the bus will stop for all of us, and so it's like let's live while we are living and let's do the things that we really want to do while we are here, like I want to be able to pick up my kids, I want to be emotionally available for them, I want to build a business that helps other women, and like there's this whole endless list. But it kind of like lit on fire when I realized like, oh, this life is going to, let's like really live it up while we're here, and so that's the one thing that I wish everyone around. Like I wish everyone could have that gift. But I don't think you have the gift of that until you've seen the darker side of it.
Speaker 1:Hmm, you have the gift of that until you've seen the darker side of it. I feel like that's the perfect place to end, and also, I really want to do this again, cause I was like it left a boxer chat, and it's even better in podcast form of just cause there's been so many times where we have had conversations and we both went oh my gosh, I have a client who needed to hear what we just said. I have a client who needed to hear what we just said. I have a client who needed to hear the way that you just expressed what you're going through, because I didn't have the words and I didn't have someone asking me these questions, and so I just I'm really appreciative of this conversation and for your vulnerability and the way that you share your story. I I know it's going to be really powerful for a lot of women. Um, is there anything else that you want to like, share or name that like we missed on, or anything else you want to add?
Speaker 2:No, I think if you are going through, if you're going through grief right now, at this very moment, in any of those capacities it's like, really really try to find the people that can can support you, not the ones who you can say, oh, you also lost your parent. Can I talk to you about that? Because you can say, oh, you also lost your parent. Can I talk to you about that? Because you can't assume that everyone has worked through it. Some people might, even if it's been two years, they still might be in the deep dark of it and they can't talk about it. Like it literally.
Speaker 2:I remember when somebody had come to me early on and like I remember trying to talk about it and my throat felt like it was closing, like I was like I can't do this, I can't talk to you about this. But if you can find the people who have worked through, they're like on the other side of it and can just hold space for you in such an understanding way. That would be my advice. Try to find those people that can hold space for you, that feels safe To just say the hard, dark things, like I didn't like this part of this process and this was icky and it's okay to say those things Like you need to find those people. So that would be that'd be the thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the honest, real, what it's like going through it, cause it's one thing to know, it's another thing to go through it. Thank you so much for being on this podcast, thank you, and, for anyone who's listening, if this resonated with you, if you, if this like just sat with you, we would love to hear from you of just questions that come up, or aha moments or permissions. So send me a DM or send me a message, especially if you want me to have Erica back and what topics we should have her for. I feel like there needs to be a part two at some point for grief and really get more in the conversation of how we support other people with grief, because I think that's like that's a whole nother angle of grief that I think our culture is really bad at in general. Like I'm still bad at it, like I have quite a bit of like legitimate, even training in this, and yet, like sometimes, when people I love are going through grief, I like lose all context of, like I don't know what to do, I don't know what to say, and so I think that would be powerful for us to do. But thank you so much for being here. Thank you. This was so much fun. I know it was fun which is a weird thing to say about grief but also, I think, actually getting to talk about it and not having to like censor or try to say the right thing and just saying the honest thing is it's refreshing and it feels really good, so I loved it.
Speaker 1:Thanks for joining me on today's episode of the Motherhood Mentor Podcast. Make sure you have subscribed below so that you see all of the upcoming podcasts that are coming soon. I hope you take today's episode and you take one aha moment, one small, tangible piece of work that you can bring into your life. To get your hands a little dirty, to get your skin in the game, your life, to get your hands a little dirty, to get your skin in the game. Don't forget to take up audacious space in your life. If this podcast moved you, if it inspired you, if it encouraged you, please do me a favor and leave a review. Send an episode to a friend. This helps the show gain more traction. It helps us to support more moms, more women, and that's what we're doing here. So I hope you have an awesome day, take really good care of yourself and I'll see you next time.
