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The Motherhood Mentor
Welcome to The Motherhood Mentor Podcast your go-to resource for moms seeking holistic healing and transformation. Hosted by mind-body somatic healing practitioner and holistic life coach Becca Dollard.
Join us as we explore the transformative power of somatic healing, offering practical tools and strategies to help you navigate overwhelm, burnout, and stress. Through insightful conversations, empowering stories, and expert guidance, you'll discover how to cultivate resilience, reclaim balance, and thrive in every aspect of your life while still feeling permission to be a human. Are you a woman who is building a business while raising babies who refuses to burnout? These are conversations and support for you.
We believe in the power of vulnerability, connection, and self-discovery, and our goal is to create a space where you feel seen, heard, and valued.
Whether you're juggling career, family, or personal growth, this podcast is your sanctuary for holistic healing and growth all while normalizing the ups and downs, the messy and the magic, and the wild ride of this season of motherhood.
Your host:
Becca is a mom of two, married for 14years to her husband Jay living in Colorado. She is a certified somatic healing practitioner and holistic life coach to high functioning moms. She works with women who are navigating raising babies, building businesses, and prioritizing their own wellbeing and healing. She understands the unique challenges of navigating being fully present in motherhood while also wanting to be wildly creative and ambitious in her work. The Motherhood Mentor serves and supports moms through 1:1 coaching, in person community, and weekend retreats.
Follow on IG: @themotherhoodmentor , send me a dm and let me know you found me through the podcast!
Website: https://www.the-motherhood-mentor.com/
Want to join the email fam for free workshops and more support: https://themotherhoodmentor.myflodesk.com/ujaud8t4x9
The Motherhood Mentor
When Helping Hurts: The Surprising Truth About Parenting Anxious Kids with Robyn Isman
What if everything you’re doing to help your child’s anxiety is actually making things worse? In this eye opening episode Becca sits down with Robyn, a licensed clinical social worker who specializes in helping anxious kids, by working with their parents.
Our natural parental instincts to soothe, protect, and accommodate can keep our kids stuck in anxiety. Robyn shares the revolutionary SPACE protocol which flips the script. Instead of trying to control or prevent your child’s anxiety or anxious behaviors, you can learn to help your kid by changing your own response.
This episode is a must listen for every parent.
About Robyn:
As a coach for parents of anxious kids and a mom of three, I know firsthand how overwhelming it can feel to raise a child in an anxious world. With over a decade of experience supporting families, I help parents navigate the uncertainty and constant second-guessing that often come with parenting an anxious child. Through my membership program and SPACE coaching, I specialize in helping families break free from the cycle of over-accommodation and build the tools they need to raise confident, resilient, and independent kids. Anxiety isn’t dangerous, and parenting through it doesn’t have to feel impossible. I know with the right support, you can show up with confidence and create a calmer, more connected home for your family.
Where to find Robyn:
If you’re ready to stop living on autopilot and start leading your life with deep presence, I’d love to work with you. Book a free interest call here: Click Here
💌 Want more? Follow me on Instagram @themotherhoodmentor for somatic tools, nervous system support, and real-talk on high-functioning burnout, ambition, healing perfectionism, and motherhood. And also pretty epic meme drops.
🎧 Did you love this episode? Be sure to follow and please take a quick moment to leave a review and send this episode to a friend. I'd love to hear from you on how this podcast impacted you, send me a DM or an email.
Welcome to the Motherhood Mentor Podcast. I'm Becca, a somatic healing practitioner and a holistic life coach for moms, and this podcast is for you. You can expect honest conversations and incredible guests that speak to health, healing and growth in every area of our lives. This isn't just strategy for what we do. It's support for who we are. I believe we can be wildly ambitious while still holding all of our soft and hard humanity as holy. I love combining deep inner healing with strategic systems and no-nonsense talk about what this season is really like. So grab whatever weird health beverage you're currently into and let's get into it.
Speaker 1:Welcome to today's episode of the Motherhood Mentor Podcast. Today, I have a really fun guest with me, robin. I found I don't even remember how I found her, but I think one of her reels had popped up on helping kids with anxiety and I immediately. It was one of those reels where I was like immediately followed, immediately went to your page and was like, ooh, this is so, so good, and so I'm so excited about this conversation we're going to have today about helping your kids with anxiety, parenting, anxiety and kids. This has been a topic that I personally am super interested in, both for my kids, but also working with a lot of clients who experienced things like this. So, robin, I'm so excited to have you. Will you introduce yourself?
Speaker 2:Yes, so I'm Robin Eisman. I'm a licensed independent clinical social worker out of Massachusetts. I'm a therapist and I run a private practice. The reason I hesitate when I say therapist and private practice is because I feel like everything has become more at this point. I feel like there's also now become this education component to things, of really trying to get this message out. So I started my Instagram, I think a couple years ago, parenting the anxious child, and I've really taken on this niche of working primarily with parents of anxious kids.
Speaker 2:Originally I was working with when I first graduated grad school. I was working with kids and families and that's always been an interest of mine of working with the dynamic between the two, because kids don't exist in silos and it's really helpful to know the whole family dynamic. I did in-home family therapy for a while and just the dynamic. A lot exists within the dynamic. So when I started doing a private practice, I worked with kids and teens with anxiety. I call anxiety the gateway diagnosis a lot because it's often anxiety symptoms are the first symptoms that parents respond to because they are disruptive. So kids would come with anxiety and I'd be working with the individual child or teen, but I always had to also work with the parent, because you can't really do the work, like I said, in isolation.
Speaker 2:Then a couple years ago, I found this protocol called SPACE, which is Supportive Parenting of Anxious Childhood, of anxious childhood emotions, and it's evidence based out of yale, created by ellie leibowitz, and I found it and like it's just, it lit up, just I just felt like it was the thing I'd been looking for my whole career, basically because it is the only evidence-based treatment proven to decrease childhood anxiety by only working with parents, which is incredibly powerful because kids' brains are not fully developed and sometimes kids aren't willing, so sometimes adults aren't willing either, but in this situation, sometimes kids and teens aren't ready, maybe they lack some insight or maybe they just don't have time.
Speaker 2:Whatever it is, working with the parents is incredibly powerful and effective. And now I use primarily space with all of my clients. I primarily work with parents and what I have found is that the change which is what it's evidence-based to show is that the change is quicker, it's more impactful to the whole family. So even though they come with one child in mind and the protocol kind of follows one kid, it changes the way you view and respond to anxiety as a whole. So your household changes. So that's kind of like. I guess I don't know if that's an explanation of me or space, but now we've become one. So that's kind of where I am at now, which is, I am like immersed in childhood anxiety and the impact that parent work has.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm, I'm so excited to talk about this. You mentioned like that anxiety is often like the disruptive thing, that kind of it's like the bubbling thing that really gets your attention because you know, you think of working, parenting and an anxious kid is a lot, it's a lot on the parents. They're feeling anxious, they're, you know, vacillating between do I just like really high control, high boundaries, high expectations? Is that too much? Or you know, this gentle parenting stuff, this permissiveness like doesn't work with this kid because they're so anxious, like you know, and I work with a lot of moms who are struggling in that area. So I'm curious, if you can, what does anxiety often look like in kids and even like, from your perspective, what is anxiety often look like in kids and even like, from your perspective, what is anxiety? Because it's one of those words that we use all the time and then no one's actually defining. What does this look and feel like in the clinical sense? But I'm also curious, like before clinical sense, yeah, like in your, your kid who's like this is normal run of run of the.
Speaker 1:I hate using the word normal. Yeah, but this is within the. This is normal run of run of the. I hate using the word normal. Yeah, this is within the. This is within a healthy human experience where, like, they're not suffering but they're having a hard time with it. Does that make sense? Totally, totally.
Speaker 2:So I love that you asked what is anxiety and that you acknowledge that it's a buzzword, because actually in my trainings and in my membership that I created in the course in there is it starts with defining what is anxiety.
Speaker 2:Space starts with that. That's where I learned how valuable that was, and the reason is is because right now anxiety is such a buzzword and even though it comes from a clinical diagnosis, we don't use it only clinically anymore. Now it's like I have anxiety, I love anxiety. So on, getting on the same page about what anxiety is is a very important piece. So the way I explained it from the beginning in my work one on one and also in trainings, is that it is a and, by the way, I not don't claim to have created this like this is how it is explained by the experts, which I am now among. But the way I've learned is what is anxiety is? It is explained by the experts, which I am now among, but the way I've learned is what is anxiety is?
Speaker 2:It is biological, it is something we have because we are mammals. It is a threat response, an alarm bell that goes off where it gets signaled that there is some sort of threat in our environment and so we need to react to it. So it is just a biological response to a perceived threat. That threat varies for people, so that's where we can both respect that it is truly happening and we can push people a bit, including our kids, to shift how they are experiencing a threat. So it's not that we don't believe it's serious or that their body is having a response. It's that we are saying it's possible that this threat is not dangerous the way it feels or is perceived to you.
Speaker 2:So anxiety is an alarm bell. It's a signal going off because of a perceived threat. It is also important to acknowledge that in your brain, when this alarm bell goes off, adrenaline rushes and your amygdala goes on, which is your threat response, like your survival brain and your prefrontal cortex goes off, which is your reasoning and your rational thinking. And the reason that's so important is because when kids are anxious, more often than not when you don't know what to do, you engage too much. We rationalize, we negotiate with them, we bribe them, we try to convince them that their anxiety is ridiculous. But one is if your survival brain is on, you are in survival mode, which means you cannot tell someone that is in that mode that they will be fine. They're not going to hear that and their rational thinking, their cognitive reasoning, is offline, so they aren't in the conversation with you anymore. It's like they're in pure survival.
Speaker 2:So anxiety is a biological response that we all have, and we have it to varying degrees. And when something becomes a disorder it's more looked at as that. The response is more extreme than makes sense. I mean there's obviously criteria to a diagnosis, but I'm thinking like if a car is coming at you and you are scared, that is an appropriate response. If you walk into school and you can't, If you walk into school and you physically freeze because people are scary to you, that perception is off a bit and we want to work with someone to broaden their capacity to be able to tolerate. It doesn't mean that's not true that they experience the people the same as the car, but we know the car is dangerous. We know the car can hurt you. The school, unless there's an outlier situation, is not hurting you, so that's the difference.
Speaker 2:And that's when things become more of a disorder, when you're like your response is not matching the risk.
Speaker 1:you're like your response is not matching the risk.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, and what I'm hearing too, is that it's it's it's impacting your ability to do the things that you want or need to do.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think what's interesting when you were talking, I'm someone who's experienced this like in my own body and I've witnessed it in my kids too, and one of the things I've noticed, at least for me, is what empowered me with my kids was actually knowing what I was experiencing, like what anxiety actually was and how to deal with it and how to move through it. Because you're right, when you were talking about, like, how we respond to our kids when they're anxious, that whole, like if I was in an anxiety attack and my husband he's not someone who had experienced that, it's not that he hadn't experienced other emotions, but like that one in particular, just like it wasn't on his flavor, I guess, wasn't on his venue for his body. For me it's like if he would be like calm down, you're okay. That's like like never, never, once, ever, has that made someone better, right, it's never been like oh okay, oh, you're right, I'm fine. Why didn't I, why didn't I think of just calming down and not being sweet, like now I feel great.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much right and yet I've I found myself doing that to my kids because their anxiety is giving me anxiety.
Speaker 1:I was going to say you're feeding off of each other and it's like, as a parent, there's this, like I need this to stop. There's there's so much emotion and I think I'm I'm really curious about why you work with parents instead of kids and how that impacts them, because I mean, that's my whole philosophy, like the motherhood mentor. People will be like, oh so you are coaching on parenting and it's like, not really, I'm coaching the parent, and when the parent, when the parent is solid, their parenting will follow. So I'm curious for you what that looks like.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I always want to say I have a lot of.
Speaker 2:I'm going to answer obviously, yeah, yeah, and I always want to say I have a lot of I'm going to answer obviously. I want to say also again this is because kids' brains that like that, the effect is lasting longer, that the that they're able to, their anxiety has decreased longer and they can see that. So, but so one is it's, it's evidence-based, but the when you think about it, the reason it makes sense to me is because when a kid this is kind of true for adults too, but I'm going to use the word kid a lot because that's what we're talking about when a kid is anxious, first of all, the kid's brain is not fully developed and I say this repeatedly because people forget and brains are not often fully developed until you're like between 23 and 25. So when I say kid, I also mean it's a pretty long span. So one is you don't have the same impulse control, you don't have the same rational thinking that a fully formed brain has. So what you're doing with someone in therapy, week after week, teaching them coping skills, teaching them to understand their anxiety, maybe you're playing and there's room for some of these therapy techniques. But if all you're doing is working with a kid week after week, providing them these, this education, these skills, it is possible they're absorbing some of it, but this brain out in the world cannot access it in those moments. That's a kid anyways. And then an anxious brain, like I just said, is in survival mode. So an anxious brain especially can't. So if you leave all the work up to the child to do, they physically can't do that, like it's not that they don't want to.
Speaker 2:There are many kids that come to me wanting to help their anxiety. They have full willingness, they are insightful, they are interested and they're wonderful clients. To add to the mix you can, especially depending on their age and, like I said, their insight. You can totally do that, but without the parent responding in a way that is. You know there's a way that we talk about. Responding is the way that builds confidence and is validating. Without that, when you have a parent who is maybe constantly accommodating, constantly reassuring their anxiety, a kid who is the most you know willing and trying so hard, if you have a parent who's constantly accommodating your anxiety on the other side, that is always going to be stronger than the anxious brain. Does that make sense? Like the anxious? No, actually, the anxious brain is the strongest thing and the parent and the anxious brain are doing the same thing.
Speaker 2:The brain inside your kid, the part of the brain that says but I do want to go to school, or I do want to go on this play date, or I do want to do this brave thing. The brain inside your kid, the part of the brain that says but I do want to go to school, or I do want to go on this play date, or I do want to do this brave thing. It's not going to win if no one's supporting it. So that's why the parent has to do the work of understanding anxiety and understanding what's happening and learning what language to use.
Speaker 2:And then the next part of space is we learn the behavior you're doing, the accommodation and how to decrease it. So we literally change the parent's behavior in response to their child's anxious symptoms. We don't try to change the kid's anxious symptoms because the behavior the parent's doing is what's perpetuating the loop. So that was a long answer of the kid physically can't do it and even when they really want to and maybe could do a glimmer of it if they are met with an accommodation. That's what's going to happen. Their anxiety is going to stay in control. So we need the parent. We need the parent to do the work. If the parent does not uphold the boundary or uphold their shift, like their understanding of the anxiety and their encouragement, the anxiety is always going to win. I want to explain sort of what, what the approach is like, the mindset.
Speaker 1:So I met. Before we jump into that, though, yeah, I want to pause because you said something that I know for a lot of moms is just going to like. It's just like going to hit them in the heart of, oh, what I've been doing has either perpetuated this or made it worse, and there's going to be that mom guilt or that mom shame, and I witnessed this all the time, and before we started recording, you were talking about that and I wanted to just pause there for those women who are hearing this and they're going, oh, what I can do can make it worse, but also what I hear, what you can do can make it so much better, can we talk about that for a minute before we go into the framework and what we do, like how this feels for parents.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean it's. It's really complicated. I'm so glad you did that. You pause there. We should pause for that, let's pause for that.
Speaker 1:Some women are going to hear that and you're like great, I can fix this, tell me how. Some are like yeah, and then some are gonna hear that and they're just gonna like, oh, they're not hearing your words anymore.
Speaker 2:yeah, yeah so you're not alone is the first thing I would say to those people. Um, often I would say more often than not, especially now, as this is like just starting to really not. Space has been around for a while, but this mindset is shifting because of the anxious generation book and there's more about parent work now in the last couple of years. Um, but even still, when a parent is referred to me, there is some level of but my kid is ancient, like there is some of me having to kind of talk this through, like what you're saying. So we're talking it through on the podcast, but I also talk this through with clients individually.
Speaker 2:Like this comes up pretty frequently, which is a feeling of guilt, a feeling of sometimes it's defensiveness, guilt, a feeling of sometimes it's defensiveness, and the reason is is because all accommodations for your child anxiety happen out of love. They happen out of a natural biological instinct that we all have to protect our babies, and so it's so the first thing I would say is, if you've been accommodating and and we've've decided that that makes anxiety worse, because that's just what we've learned you have been doing that because you love them, so it is not from a place of evil or shame, or there is nothing to be ashamed of if your natural instinct is to accommodate at all.
Speaker 1:Well, I think it's culturally, especially for a long time I think it's been huge culturally that when you ask a mom, what do you want in your motherhood, oh, I want my kids to be happy and it's like, well, that's a completely unrealistic expectation, that sucks. But it's true that I think a lot of moms feel like it's their job to make sure that their kids are happy all the time. So then their kids being anxious, of course they're going to try to accommodate the anxiety. What is accommodation? Because all of a sudden I'm like, okay, I know what that means, you know what that means. But like, when a mom's accommodating anxiety, what does that look like? What does that mean?
Speaker 2:yeah, so, yeah, you're asking all the right questions. So accommodation, like anxiety, is a buzzword also because if you're in the world of kids and if you've ever done, you know in Massachusetts they're called IEPs, individualized education plans, or there's other plans like that. They're full of accommodations that are completely valuable and necessary. So you might have a kid that like requires certain accommodations at school or it could be learning-based. There's lots of physical, lots of ways we accommodate our kids that are very important. What we have learned is for anxiety it makes it worse. So there's some diagnoses where you need it to make. What I've said before is most accommodations make your world bigger. When you accommodate anxiety, you make the world smaller, so you're making things less scary, which often makes it smaller. The way we define accommodation in space is anything you are doing or not doing because of your child's anxious emotions. So it is anything you are either avoiding or building in to your system, your family system, and you're doing it because of the anxious emotions. Some primary examples are well, I'm going to give you here this is what I'm thinking right now. The way to think about what an accommodation is is not about your child's anxiety. It's about how you respond. So, for example, it's not that my kid won't sleep at night. The accommodation is that you lay with them. If you have a kid that won't go to sleep alone, the accommodation is that you're laying with them. If you have a kid that won't go to sleep alone, the accommodation is that you're laying with them. If you have a kid who's constantly texting you from school, the accommodation would be that you're answering. Or if you have a kid that's constantly asking for reassurance, like am I going to be okay, am I going to do well on this test? I'm asking you. Them asking is the anxious symptom. You answering is the accommodation. So it's anything that you're doing or not doing.
Speaker 2:Because of that, a lot. There's so many examples. When I go through trainings I have this sheet that is very overwhelming. Intentionally, that lists like a ton of examples because they vary so much. Sometimes it's speaking for a kid and that's why selective mutism is often a diagnosis that we can work with parents on. That can decrease the selective mutism because people will accommodate by speaking for their kid constantly and so that's a natural way that that affirms that anxiety, because your parent is constantly doing it for you. So you learn oh, I have. I need my parent. I need my parent to do this for me. Sometimes it's there. Another really popular one right now is a diagnosis called ARFID, which is a food restriction disorder, which is also anxiety based, is a food restriction disorder which is also anxiety based, and so what? So it's, the ARFID is the kid's diagnosis, but the accommodation could be like you stop putting certain foods out because they don't like them, or you stop buying them, or you stop attending dinners with your family, things like that. So that's an example.
Speaker 2:Some really common ones. The laying in bed is like, I would say, bedtime is like, probably most common, and reassurance, providing reassurance. Those are usually the two that are the most common. But one other one that I see all the time is if you have a kid that's afraid of a pet, like afraid of dogs, and this is very natural, like a lot of kids when they're little are afraid of dogs. They're the same size, they run up on them, all of that. But parents approach it differently. And as long as long as the kid doesn't have any like serious allergies, obviously, um, but the parents approach differently.
Speaker 2:Some people will say, put your dog away, like they'll want the person they're going to to put the dog away, and some hosts will be like I'll put the dog away, but the what we really want is there to be a messaging that says you can be scared of this thing, this dog. I didn't mean to call the dog a thing, but you can be scared of this animal. That can give you a signal, a threat response, and so that's the validation. I see that you're scared of this dog. I see how hard that is for you to go to this house with this dog dog. I see how hard that is for you to go to this house with this dog and I believe that you could handle being scared and that is the confidence.
Speaker 2:So the accommodation is when parents say put the dog away, or we won't go to their house or we just won't have friends with dogs, or something like that. And people do it very subtly at the beginning, like I have. We have a family member that when the kid was little they were afraid of balloons and some parents would have just said, oh, we just don't need to have balloons in the house and, yes, that is a small thing. That probably is not the biggest deal in the world, but one if you go to a birthday party ever, there's a balloon, so you don't want that to get worse, because it actually can become like very frustrating. And two, it affirms when I'm scared of something, my most trusted person, my parent, solves it for me and I am not capable of being scared and still making it through. And they've affirmed that by solving it by removing the balloons.
Speaker 1:So it's all like yeah but no, like it's like I hear what you're saying of, like it's affirming the anxiousness, whereas like anxiousness is different than fear, in that fear is there's an actual active threat and I need this fear to be getting to safety right.
Speaker 1:Correct me if you have a different view on this. Anxiety is I have the feeling that there's this active threat, but the reality is that like there's actually nothing threatening me right now, like the threat is not in the room Right right, or the threat is in the room but like a balloon's not actually a threat to my wellbeing, the dog's not a threat to my wellbeing. As you were sharing this, I'm thinking of all the but what about trauma? But what about attachment? But what about you know at what age you know if they're an attachment parent and they're saying you know what, if that is a biological need for my kid to lay next to me versus anxiety? I'm curious how you know, when you're working through, what is anxiousness and what is the biological need or you know, is accommodating ever appropriate in cases with trauma or things like I'm thinking like attachment?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Or do you feel like underlying it's still accommodating the anxiety, which just makes it bigger, and then they never win, right?
Speaker 2:So there's a couple things. One is we have a process of checking in about if something is an accommodation versus just a parenting style, so, or an accommodation for anxiety versus a parenting style. So yeah, we got you got. You kind of want to ask yourself, like do I, if you have more than one kid, do I do this for all my kids or only my anxious kid? Do I do it only because they're anxious? Like do I, am I laying with if I haven't? For example, if you're an attachment parent and you and forgive me if I use the wrong jargon or anything but if you're focused on sleeping, if you're co-sleeping, then I would assume you're co-sleeping with all your kids.
Speaker 1:You're not co-sleeping with just one, because they're it's an intentional choice you're making versus a reflexive response to your kids' anxiety. That's what I'm hearing from you. There's a difference between we're actively choosing to do this as a family versus we are centering what we do as a family around the anxiety Versus. We are centering what?
Speaker 2:we do as a family around anxiety, right? So basically, so that's yeah, you just said it very beautifully. It's a reflexive response Versus something that you're doing for a parent and because you're a parent and you can ask yourself too do I want to stop? So if the answer is no, I always say to parents I never, I don't tell people what their accommodations are. So if someone came to me and they said they map out, there's a process in this, that where you map out your own accommodation, so if you don't put it on there, I'm not saying but do you sleep with them? Because that's not important to me, it's not.
Speaker 2:What matters is are you doing, you're trying to help your kids anxiety? What are the things you're doing because, or not doing because of their anxiety, and do you want to stop doing that? So, for example, the sleeping is a good one with attachment and if some, like I said, if someone's laying with my, with their child, that is totally fine. And if that helps them, if that makes them happy, and even if it doesn't make them happy, if it's just a comfortable thing that they don't mind doing and they're doing it with whatever kid needs it, that's fine. If you're saying I can't leave the house at night because of this. That's a different thing.
Speaker 1:And I think this is important because I think that's what's for me when I'm working with women. That's what stops the guilt and shame spiral is the like is this working for you, yeah, is this working for you? Does this work for you, does this work for your kid? And if the answer is no, let's change that. This is an opportunity and it doesn't help us to spiral about why you did it or like there's nothing wrong with you other than this doesn't work for you. Let's change it. Let's make it better for you and for your kid Versus. If this works for you, okay. If this works for your kid, okay. Like, yeah, keep it, and I guess you don't need my help.
Speaker 2:You know Exactly Well that happens a lot where I'll say to people, like when people push back a little bit, I'll be like you know, you don't have to do this.
Speaker 2:Like this, I was like it's fine, like, but also the other thing is, is the goal of your accommodation is, or the goal of what you're doing is love and attachment and all this stuff? But then when you start to realize that some of it is actually making life harder for your kid ultimately so it's also about perspective taking of, like I'm doing this thing because I believed, believe, slash, believed that this is actually what made their life better Then all of a sudden you realize, oh, maybe it's actually not helping them form this like big life that I, that they want, or that I want for them, and so maybe I'm going to shift something. So it might not be working for you as a parent and also might not be doing what you, what you meant to do. Yeah, because it might actually like with attachment. There is part of attachment is secure attachment, which means leaving and coming back. It doesn't mean just staying together. You can sense that I'm being a little careful, but the other thing I wanted to comment on was what you said about trauma. So something that's really interesting is the response that people have about if the anxiety is valid, does it change this, if the person actually experienced something that is worthy of this need for this accommodation, and I would argue and I've worked with many people where this is the case, I would actually argue that all anxiety is valid, but I've worked with many people where the kid has experienced trauma the loss of a parent, maybe it's trauma in the classroom, like so that so that they develop fear of school or anxiety around school. So there's a lot of ways where this, or they got into a car accident, so then they have anxiety around cars or something like that. I would argue that this is even more important when there is trauma because you're saying, if you say to someone, because you've experienced this, you can never do more Like and supportive language which is what I was saying earlier validation plus confidence. It gives the opportunity to say like yes, this is 100% real and I still believe you can heal through this. I still believe in you. And I would argue it's even more important because if the brain has experienced trauma, the brain will tell you never to do things. That is a response and or to do things that are not positive for you. So if you have everyone else meeting you with that and accommodating that, that messaging or affirming it, you're going to stay in that lane and so like.
Speaker 2:For example, I've worked with parents whose kids have lost their like. I've worked with like one parent who lost their spouse and their kid lost their parent, have lost their like. I've worked with like one parent who lost their spouse and their kid lost their parent and the child required sleeping with the mom so she could hear her breathe, so that she knew she was alive. There is nothing more legitimate than that. I'm like this is a small child who wants to know that her mom is alive because one of her parents literally died. So that makes tons of sense to me.
Speaker 2:We don't first of all just decide okay, we're not, that's absurd, you're gonna not sleep with her. Like, that's not that. But we ultimately do want to encourage the idea that you don't have to hear someone breathing to know they're alive, like. So if you constantly say like, yes, I will sleep with you because that's the only way you believe I'm alive, you're affirming this anxiety that if I'm not right here, breathing, that means I could be dead. And if you're constantly affirming that anxiety, that's like a that's. That's also not super helpful, because we want this kid to be able to individuate at some point. You know what I mean, and obviously we're being gentle and age appropriate with everything we do, but the concept that this wouldn't be appropriate for someone with trauma I actually would argue that it's the opposite it's like incredibly supportive.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love what you shared there I was. I was literally just thinking before this wasn't even. I wasn't even thinking about our podcast yet. But this morning I was thinking of my husband actually and how he didn't accommodate me and I really hated that.
Speaker 1:I had a lot of anxiety and I was still trying to heal from some trauma stuff and what's interesting is that eventually I realized I wanted him so I wanted so deeply because I had a lot of immaturity, I had a lot of anxiety. I wanted him to affirm it, I wanted him to accommodate it, I wanted him to validate it. But by him not doing that, that's actually a lot of what helped me heal. And I didn't like it, by the way, I really did not like it. I was mad at him of therapy validating what was wrong. Yeah, because that's what helped me recognize I'm okay, I have this feeling, but like that's not happening anymore. It really truly gave me freedom from this thing that was.
Speaker 1:It was still taking over my life. Things in childhood, things that happened in childhood, were still taking over my adult life, my decision making, what I did and didn't do, and it could be paralyzing at times and it's so fascinating that I'm sitting here like, oh, he was doing this and he didn't even know it. But I'm curious can you share more about this framework, about, like I'm sure there's so many moms who are listening and they're going. Okay, I've been accommodating. What else do I do? Yeah, what else do I do and how do I do it? Because I can only imagine this as an emotional process for the parents.
Speaker 2:So, first of all, what you just said is is the whole, is the goal summed up, which is that you are someone who loves you, is saying yes, I see you and I believe more for you, and so the fact that you're like a result of that and it might and I also often say to people, this is evidence-based for parent, child, but it changes how you view it Anxiety as a whole. Yeah, so I say, think about it for yourself, think about it for your spouse, think about it all that. So I just love that you just shared that. That's such a great example and it's and I also it also shows what something I say to parents a lot which we can kind of go back to those parents who pause, maybe feeling some guilt and shame, shame which is that this is loving, this is supportive, like to not accommodate is often the harder thing, because people get mad at you like you're describing like kids.
Speaker 2:It's actually harder to do that sometimes, even though people think, oh, but accommodating is really hard. But emotionally, not accommodating is very hard because you're constantly needing to reassure, kind of say to yourself like, okay, we're doing this for a reason, but it is so loving to set boundaries. It is like boundaries are so loving and I it makes me sad when people feel like they're so negative, cause I'm like it's the most loving healthy thing you can do is have boundaries with people in your life, including.
Speaker 1:It's different than a punishment. Oh, it's so different. I think underneath people feel like a boundary is I'm punishing you for your behavior, but a boundary is like I love you enough to tell you the truth about what's happening.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I love you enough to believe in you. I love you enough to trust our relationship that this boundary won't hurt it. I love that there's so much love in a boundary. Like I said, boundaries are bridges, not walls, like they're like a way that you build. So that is a little bit of a tangent, but I just love your story. That that's like really beautiful and whether it sounds like he wasn't doing it on purpose, but it sounds like it was what you needed. He was doing it.
Speaker 1:I mean he was doing it because he loved me and he had never it just didn't occur to him to account. I mean, part of it is personality and it's not that he was ever cruel or unloving or that he wasn't empathetic to how I was feeling, but he didn't change his behaviors based off of how I felt, and that is actually what created right, if we're looking at secure attachment, exactly, quite literally, in this. I mean, in this case, if you were thinking like I'm the child and he's the parent, because essentially, maturity wise, I wanted him, I wanted him to change his behavior based off of how I felt. And he didn't do that. Yeah, he just kept being honest and true and loving and kind.
Speaker 2:And while I didn't always like that, he kept doing that, which actually taught my nervous system oh, we're safe here because we know exactly how he's going to show up and he you don't know how you want to go into all this, but I love it because it is a very clear example and it is the hope of what is experienced for the kid, which is that I can trust my parent to be stable and steady, regardless of my emotions and responses. So, like you, don't ask your kid to not be anxious. You are so confident and steady and validating that it doesn't matter. And then they start to trust that, no matter what, their feelings are not going to pull you in. They're not and their feelings are not in control. There are so many people I work with where one or more of the children's anxiety is controlling the whole house and that is not. That is miserable for parents, but it is also miserable for the kids, because the kids are set. A message is sent that this is the. This is the most important person in the house.
Speaker 1:It is my anxiety, yeah like, yeah, and I work with a lot of women who had mothers who never emotionally disconnected in that way and they still feel emotionally responsible for their mothers, like it created that codependency. Yeah, now they're looking at their relationship with their kids and they're like, whoa, I never want my kids to feel emotionally responsible for me, but I think we don't recognize, oh, when my behaviors and emotions change based off of their emotions. That's them being in charge of my emotions. That's them having to parent me instead of me parenting them. But that's hard, that is hard.
Speaker 2:It's really hard, and the example that I use a lot for a personal example is I have a child who, when and when I leave the house to go out at night, they cry like no matter what. Like it's my oldest kid, almost 10. Like no matter what is they ask me at the beginning of the week are going out at all this week, and then it's like we have to, and it never changes what I do. So I so, and it is hard, like it is sad, and sometimes I also don't even want to go because I'm tired and I actually want to cancel.
Speaker 2:That's so real, that's so real, right, but I don't cancel because I can't have her get the message that her emotion decides if I go out, and it has nothing to do with going out, it has to do with the fact that that is too much power to give your emotion for us to like, listen to it. And so this is an example of just how I do it, which is that she'll start asking me and I will say, oh, I'm not sure. And then I'll say and then I might. If I don't lie, like if I do know I'm going out, I'll tell her. But I also don't not make spontaneous plans. I don't. I don't do anything differently because I have this child. Like that is the, that is the point, that's like one example of how this works out. So you asked me, I think you asked me like what do you do, or what's the?
Speaker 1:like what do we do? What is, what is the framework and the formula? But before we jump, into that.
Speaker 1:I have a really fast question that I think will be fast. Yeah, is there a certain age where this starts being effective? Right, cause I'm thinking about like a toddler. Right, I just had, like my nephew who's a toddler and I'm thinking like, okay, at what point am I accommodating him? Cause, right, like they get upset at everything. Yeah, like that's just what toddlers do in there, like I want the world to surround me. So I'm curious, like, what gap, what age frame? I mean I'm thinking this will help any age.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So the way I mean it is there's like a three, like a, there's ages. I would say I've seen it help parents. Of the reason it feels like it will help any age is because we are not working with the child's age, we are working with the relationship between the parent and child. We are working with the relationship between the parent and child. So that does not change.
Speaker 2:Like you just described your clients whose parents have still impact their emotions, like that does not always change. So because of that I, anecdotally, like it is effective, like it is effective to start setting to not accommodate your kid. If you have a kid who's in college comes home. So space also has a training, which I've also done for failure to launch. So that's why the age question is difficult, because you should get trained in it, like it isn't just an X, it isn't just like whatever, but it there is value to this work, even when your kid is an adult. Because if you are accommodating their anxiety around something, maybe their social anxiety, maybe it's something about their work, like maybe they're not getting a job because of it, maybe there's a generalized anxiety about just like going out into the world. Whatever it is, if you are accommodating it, you're accommodating it. It doesn't matter the age, I would say.
Speaker 2:I start working with parents of four-year-olds, like four is like a good age, where they start to be like maybe the parent is more ready to not lay with them as much and then the kid isn't like allowing it, or they're struggling at the drop-off at daycare, or maybe they're being more restrictive with their food, and so, like four, I feel like tend to be where parents are like oh, my kid is exhibiting these signs and there are. At four the kid is the parents are really able to verbally explain what they're doing in an age appropriate way, because space includes informing the child of your plans to change your behavior. So we don't just like stop laying. We say to the kids, we say like oh, we're so proud of you. Blah, blah, blah.
Speaker 2:And then there's a phase of space called the announcement where we actually say to a child I've noticed that you get anxious, nervous around bedtime and you can use the word anxious if you want around bedtime, and I now know that when I lay with you every night it doesn't help. You be less nervous every day. So you explain it to them, so there's. So when you're four you can kind of like have that little bit.
Speaker 2:I mean you might make it a little different, but I would say four is when I start seeing people more preventatively because by because usually at four they wouldn't have a diagnosis people more preventatively because by because usually at four they wouldn't have a diagnosis um, and then I would say parents. A lot of it has to do with parents feelings of the fact that they feel more in control of their younger kids. Um, I think it's harder for parents to uh wrap their minds around the fact that they can control things they do with their teens and their older kids, like not answering a text at school, like that's a hard concept to like that's a weird, that's a hard feeling but to have, but it is effective.
Speaker 2:So like it's not about it's not about the age isn't really effective. It's like how the parent views their parenting phase. You know, yeah.
Speaker 1:I absolutely hear what you're saying and I think too it's interesting you use that word control and I think that has to be like a big piece in it. But I'm so, I'm so excited to hear more of like the framework and a little bit of what that looks like.
Speaker 2:So the first thing we teach, well, first we teach the foundations of, like, what is anxiety and all that which we kind of talked about.
Speaker 2:The first tool that is taught in space is called supportive language, and I mentioned it which is the combination of validation and confidence. So most parents swing a pendulum back and forth, either within themselves or within the duo, if there's two parents and it's the idea that we go. We go with protective, like a little bit coddling, enabling, which we, I guess, would call accommodating to demanding, like one is like oh, she doesn't like to go to parties, so we're just gonna rsvp, no, we're not even gonna ask her. Like you know more of a protective style. Or demanding, like just go already, like what's the big deal? I control, yeah, yeah. And the way I present it when I do this work is, I think of it as a tug of war, so like we're constantly in this battle, either within or sometimes people will overcompensate if they have a partner that's like too much of one, they'll get too much of the other Very common, and the issue with that is that when it's inconsistent it's just confusing, like when you just leave it up to chance, like you do it based on your mood or you do it based on, like, how annoying the kid's behavior is or something or how disruptive.
Speaker 2:But instead we want you to proactively go into this with supportive language. So we want you to always be validating. We want you to say we don't skip the validation. That's why I love space so much, because people will think you're like being a like, they think you're going one way or the other. But I actually, like, when I see this, I'm like this is meant for both types of parents, because you don't skip the validating. You say like I see you, I believe you, and then you add the confidence, you add the idea that, like, even with that experience, we still believe in you, and what that does is it shows that your trusted adult really, like is believing in you while it's hard.
Speaker 2:So the first part is really supportive language. That's like the first tool and that tool you can take with you as like a framework of how you see anxiety for yourself, for your partner, anyone. And then there's a journey of, like mapping your accommodation. So really thinking of your whole day, morning till night, all week maybe there's holiday accommodations, anything and you map them out, you jot them down and then we pick one at a time to target and the accommodations are the parents' behavior. And then we target the parents' behavior. So I'll say like, oh, what should we target? And a person will say like, oh, she's always asking me questions and I'm like, no, we're not targeting that, we're targeting that you're answering the question. So usually when people write down the accommodations, they'll word it like from the kids.
Speaker 1:What the kid's doing. Yeah, and I will go. Yeah, and I always want the kid's behavior to change. But that's not actually parenting the kid's behavior is triggering.
Speaker 2:So we're like make it stop. Yeah, and and and.
Speaker 1:I get it.
Speaker 2:I'm like they're like we just need her to stop, and I'm like, no, no, she's not going to stop, like she's not, and the idea is, hopefully she does stop. That is the goal, but that's not what we're going to work on, because we're not in her body, so like I'm not.
Speaker 1:You don't actually, you like I. One of the worst parts of parenting is the realization of like, how little control you have. But once you realize how little you control them and how much you can control you and how much influence and impact you will have when you control you, when you are leading yourself well, and not this like high control, like you talked about, like that pendulum of like the high control, high demand, where you're just like you will do this there's no empathy, there's no like affirming or what's the like your. Why can't I find the word Enabling? No, I'm trying to. There was.
Speaker 1:Oh, my gosh, oh, that demanding, demanding, yeah, like you're demanding something but you're never like affirming what they're experiencing as real without affirming but anyways, there's like those two pendulums of parenting and I think most of us can find ourselves like what is your go-to? But when you find that's not working, sometimes you swing to the other end, right like I'll work with these moms who are like I'm just like I'm trying to be gentle and I'm trying to not yell, and then they find themselves constantly going to that place because they're not finding that middle where there's boundaries and expectations and follows, where you're validating but you're also not accommodating. I love that word.
Speaker 2:Yeah, which it's like, it's very, and I love it. Ellie Leibowitz, when he does the training he says he says exactly what you said in a quote. It is an illusion that we can control our children's behavior and I just wish that that was like written on every hospital room wall. Like I like like when, like when teachers call and they tell me, like when teachers email me and I have kids that do interesting things, so when teachers call and they tell me I don't write back about it, like as if I can control it, I'm like, oh, that's hard Because, like it's not, I can't control it.
Speaker 2:I can like do everything I can I respond, we have a plan, like all of that stuff, but I can't control it.
Speaker 2:I can like do everything I can I respond, we have a plan, like all of that stuff, but I can't pretend that I can control this behavior like I can control. I have a four-year-old who says the f-word and he's been saying it for like two years and like I don't, like I literally am like I'm sorry, like I I've tried everything and it's gotten way better. So what I'm trying is working but it's not stopping and and I can't do it, I'm like I don't know what to do. So the point is is like it is an illusion, and the fact that we think it isn't is why we feel like failures, because, like the fact that we think we can and you, if you think you can and you don't, you failed. But if it's an illusion, then I didn't fail. It's just not possible and we can't control other people. So that is a really big part of it, which is why the accommodations are all about the parent and often I have oh, go ahead.
Speaker 1:No, no, you're fine. When we're talking about control, I also think about, like the parents who do think they control their kids because their kids are so well-behaved and what's fascinating. I've worked with some of those kids as women, essentially, if you will and they they did. They had their parents, had control over them, and now, as adults, they don't know how to control themselves. They always need an external place of control and when they don't, they don't trust themselves. They don't know how to make these decisions because their parents were so good at controlling them and they were just the personality type, or whatever you want to call it, where they fell in line to that parent's control. To the parents, you know you will do X, y.
Speaker 1:None of it feels okay because they were never taught how to have their own sovereignty. They were looked at as like an extension of their parents. So I think it's I just there's that interesting again, that pendulation of both sides have some health to it. We need the health of both parts, but both of them in their extremes aren't helpful, especially for these kids who are anxious. But I really honestly think probably all kids could use this.
Speaker 2:Well, that's, that's a big thing I created right, which is why I created this as in a membership style more education, because there is room, it is a therapy, it is evidence-based as a therapy space, but it the education of how to respond to your kids in these ways and and to not be triggered and to have this like approach of like yes, I can believe your feeling and I can still be believe in you through. That feeling is valuable, no matter what. Yeah, something you just said made me think of something. Oh, I get very when kids are perfectly behaved. I don't like that.
Speaker 2:Sorry, that's a very broad stroke statement, but there is a balance between being like, well behaved and and acting out developmentally appropriately, and when kids don't know how to do that, or think that they aren't going to be like, um, loved when they get home or approved of, or whatever word, because I believe parents, even when they're doing this, they do love their kid. It's not like that. But when parents are like responding in a way that the kid is scared or something like when, then, and they're behaving because of, like you said, this external locus of validation or it's just it, that's a red flag to me and so that's why I like this illusion of the controls, because it's really not about making them do anything. We, I really. The work is really about releasing this idea that we're going to make your kid do something and we're going to change, and then the anxiety is going to decrease and I've seen that over and over. So now it is evidence-based and anecdotally, I've seen it just over and over so you don't accommodate.
Speaker 1:you meet your kid with this confidence and the affirmation and then I can only picture their anxiety looks like it escalates, or at least their emotional response to it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so basically, so, like I said, you map out your accommodations and then you pick. And then when you pick an accommodation of what you're not going to do, so we can go with the bedtime one because it's common, like, okay, so I'm not going to lay with my kid until they fall asleep, okay. So then we make a plan together. So this is a really important piece because a lot of times people will just say, okay, then just stop laying. But we actually make a plan of what it's going to look like. So how many stories are you going to read? Are you going to say good night and then be nearby? What's the plan? What are you going to do? And then the reason I'm answering your question in this way is because this is all laying a foundation for how the child, for engaging the child around this change. So you make a plan, then we do something called stress testing, which is we actually talk through what you're talking about, worrying about. Is the kid going to yell? Sometimes kids are emotionally manipulative. They're like you hate me. They say, oh yeah. Sometimes they get aggressive physically. Sometimes they just shut down and isolate. So there's lots of different ways. So we plan for how we're going to respond to that, which I'll get to some of those ideas and then we actually do what I talked about before called the announcement. So this is where we really tell the kid like I am going to change something I'm doing because I've noticed it's not working, and the announcement is completely framed from the perspective of the parent. It's not like you're going to do this, it's all about you all, about the parent. So let's say we do all of that and then we predictably and I talk about this with parents is that we expect this, yes, we expect the kid, you are taking something that has been protective to them. So like, if you have an anxiety around bedtime and you let, if a kid has anxiety around bedtime and you laying with them has relieved that anxiety and you take that away, the anxiety is going to act out. So that is normal, that is predictable. Like we're not worried about that, like I, that's how, that's the way I respond. It's like, yes, this is about maybe unpleasant, this might be scary, but we are not changing our behavior based on their reaction. Because if we do that, then we affirm that they, that we need to keep doing the accommodating and we affirm that their anxiety is right and it does need to be loud. So what do we do instead?
Speaker 2:So mostly the gist is and there's language in this in the book that was written by Ellie Leibowitz and also in any trainings you do with space, which mostly it's a lot of this idea of like giving room for the feelings of the kids and being with them physically maybe, but not engaging with the back and forth, with the anxiety. So there's something called delayed response, which is like, let's say, you have a kid who's like rapidly firing questions at you because they're like well, where are you going to be? What are you going to do? How many times are you going to hug me? How about, like that? So you might use delayed response, where you just kind of like let that happen and you don't engage in the behavior, because any emotion or behavior you engage with is going to last longer. So that is their anxiety, like venting out. If you go back, it's going to, it becomes a loop. If you instead can like delay your response a bit and allow that space for that and kind of like take a moment for it to not to breathe, to be less triggered, um, that that is fine, like we don't mind them doing that. We just don't want to feed into it. So delayed response.
Speaker 2:And then there's another level, sort of disengagement. So there might maybe it's more than a delayed response. Maybe you really are, are like I'm not going to talk while I'm in the room or I'm not going to engage with your anxiety. And then there's also the idea of like, if you have to do more of like a sit, in which this is actually talked about in the book as like more about self harm and like safety. But the idea is that you can be with a child to help them stay safe without engaging with their anxiety. So being with them is not accommodating. It's the, it's the like requirement of it. So like, what are you doing and are you talking about it? Are you reassuring them? So, really, a lot of this is all the way to say you do very little. It just feels very hard.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the doing nothing is one of the hardest things to do, especially if you are someone who is highly accommodating, who likes to fix things, who likes to make people feel better. I mean, I, this is one of the hardest. One of the hardest things for me as a parent is to do nothing, say nothing and just be there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I always say doing nothing is doing something. It is and it's really important. And, honestly, there's terms I can say like the delayed response, disengagement, but at the end of the day, what I'm saying is they're allowed to have their feelings and you shouldn't change your behavior because of it. So at the end of the day, you're not. Honestly, we want to just ensure safety. So if you have a kid that you need to stay nearby or remove objects from their room or whatever it is like. We always want to ensure safety, but we don't have to be reassuring, we don't have to lay with them because they yelled all night Like we don't have to do that. So that is the piece. So that is really the response is and I would like to offer people listening to this Every single person I talk to talks, responds to me as if they're an outlier.
Speaker 2:So this is not uncommon, that kids have a strong reaction to this. So I just want people to know you're not alone in thinking, yeah, but that would never work for my kid. Most people feel that way at first and then I just say like, okay, well, if what you're doing now is working, that's fine, and if you want to try something else. This is another thing to try. And if you do feel like it really doesn't work, if you give it a fair shot, then that's fine, but I haven't had that happen. A fair shot, then that's fine, but I haven't had that happen. Usually what happens is someone will stop too soon if it's like not feeling right, or they'll do the whole thing, and it really is super helpful. So, because it takes a lot of practice.
Speaker 2:It's like we're asking parents you said something in the beginning we didn't acknowledge, which is that it's emotional work, like you're triggered during this, so we have to take care of you, and a lot of parents I work with have their own therapists. So I ask that I say, like, do you have somewhere to process what comes up for you during this? And if not, then I can do that with them. But sometimes they have their own therapist that they work with. So it's emotional, it's hard, it's not. It's easier to just lay with the kid, it's easier to just lay with the kid, it's easier and it's delayed.
Speaker 1:I would say it's delayed easier.
Speaker 2:Right, right, sorry, it's short term easier.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but but I think you're right because it's it's an avoidance of you having to deal with their emotions, which is, honestly, a lot of what led me into doing coaching as a mom. Like for me, like I went and found coaching because I was just like shocked at how much her emotional reactivity or the emotions that came up and I'm talking like even just toddler era where all of a sudden I realized like, oh, I am very codependent with her emotions. I wouldn't have used that language, but like my empathy and my sensitivity of I was quickly realizing that, like, so much of my parenting regulation was hinged on a toddler's regulation and I was like that can't, this isn't gonna work. This isn't gonna work because, you know, in my brain I had, oh, I can either go into the like high control, spanking, threatening. Yeah, well, that doesn't work.
Speaker 1:But I also was like, okay, also this, like passive, aggressive, gent, whatever you, what you could call it gentle parenting. There was also this like wait, but I also don't think that's gonna work for me. This like so I love the language that you have and I'm so fascinated by this framework. I think I'm like sitting here like this wasn't a podcast, this was like you just gave us like a masterclass. This was so, so good. I'm curious like if there's anything we missed that you feel like it's really important.
Speaker 2:Well, one thing I want to say, just to acknowledge, is, like you're you're a really good mom for noticing that. Really good mom for noticing that. Because that is the point, like the, the, the crossroad that people get to, where they're like this is triggering me, and if you don't have that level of insight, you're just triggered. But if you have a moment where you're like this isn't good, like I should probably. So I just want to really, I hope you, like I mean, I hope you do your, you do your own, you obviously do your own stuff, but I hope you realize, like there's a lot of people who that doesn't occur to them that there's another way. So that's really awesome and I hope that people listening to know that there is another way.
Speaker 2:And I guess one thing I would add which we a little bit touched on when we did our pause in the beginning but I want people to view this not in a way of I've been doing something wrong, but as an opportunity, like there is this, like very rich opportunity that we have that actually is doing less is going to be what helps your kid. Like the idea that I want you to do less, I want you to talk less, I want you to fix less and those are the things that we're finding that decrease anxiety and increase independence and confidence in our kids and that is very counterintuitive to a lot of people. So I want people to think about that.
Speaker 1:Well, and what a gift to those women who are like I couldn't possibly do more, like they're exhausted because they're doing the most. They're doing, yeah, not only the physical labor in their households, they're doing the emotional labor, and it's like your kids aren't learning how to do their emotional labor because you're doing it for them, right? But I love what you said too, of you know, I think, a lot of women, a lot of the like mom guilt that people talk about, they're not actually talking about mom guilt. There's kind of this. People are either saying it's either the kid's fault or it's the mom's fault. And how I look at it, as I don't, who cares whose fault it is. There's an opportunity here. Right, there's a problem that needs solving and I'm the leader here.
Speaker 1:My kid's not the leader. My kid's a kid. I'm the parent, which means that I'm the leader. I'm the one who makes the hard decisions and changes my behavior because I'm the boss. Right, my kid can't be the boss. Like that's too much for them, even as they're older. Like I need to be the boss of me and my household so that they learn how to be the boss of them, because if I'm not taking leadership and accountability, essentially it's giving it to them and that's too much responsibility for them. Like that's. I don't want my kids to hold that responsibility over what we are doing or not doing, which gets harder, I will say as, like you know, I'm in the teen years now of parenting that's gotten harder and harder for me.
Speaker 1:I'm so, so grateful that when my kids were little, I chose the hard way. Yeah, like that, I chose to do the hard thing of trying to like there's that tension you mentioned. Like there's that tension, that tug of war pull. Yeah, I'm so glad that I was willing to figure out the hard way, to like meet that tension and that emotional resistance, to figure out what actually builds health long term, because I, I, you do reap the rewards. I will say that, like I've witnessed I mean even just in the like, the underlying of what you're saying'm like, oh no, this works. I know this because I've watched it. I mean, I watched it work on me accidentally. Oops, oh my gosh, I'm so excited to be like hey, hubs, I have a podcast episode of mine you need to listen to he's gonna be like you're welcome.
Speaker 1:I know it'll be great this has has been such a great conversation.
Speaker 2:Robin.
Speaker 1:I am just I'm grateful for the work you do in the world and the way you do it, because I think you are going to give so many parents and I think of like not only the parents but also the kids of just it's really important, powerful work, and I really appreciate what you do.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much, thank you and if you guys, you guys for sure, go follow her. Her content's amazing, it's super. It's truly like you give really educational content but in a really potent, powerful way, and I'm sure working with you is just incredible. So thank you so much for being here. Anything else, any last words?
Speaker 2:I know what I want to add. Add because you just said that is the membership that I launched is available to everyone. It's pretty low cost and it comes with live monthly office hours. So if you're like I don't need to go into therapy and I don't necessarily want this like in-depth work, I want to say that this is something that anyone can access and I think it's gonna be super helpful for people.
Speaker 1:And I I'm such a proponent of groups and stuff like that when I tell you I think so many people go for like, oh, I need the education, and it's like that's great and sometimes you just need if you had 15 minutes with a coach who you could like work out what to do, how to say it, it can be so, so powerful. Yeah, awesome. Thank you so much, robin. Yeah, Thanks for joining me on today's episode of the Motherhood Mentor Podcast. Make sure you have subscribed below so that you see all of the upcoming podcasts that are coming soon.
Speaker 1:I hope you take today's episode and you take one aha moment, one small, tangible piece of work that you can bring into your life, to get your hands a little dirty, to get your skin in the game. Don't forget to take up audacious space in your life. If this podcast moved you, if it inspired you, if it encouraged you, please do me a favor and leave a review. Send an episode to a friend. This helps the show gain more traction. It helps us to support more moms, more women, and that's what we're doing here. So I hope you have an awesome day, take really good care of yourself and I'll see you next time.
