The Motherhood Mentor

Intrusive Thoughts, Postpartum Struggles, and Permission to Breathe with Dr. Kim Murray

• Rebecca Dollard: Somatic Mind-Body Life Coach, Enneagram Coach, Speaker, Boundaries Coach, Mindset

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Motherhood will stretch you in ways you never imagined, but you don’t have to face it alone. In this raw conversation with Dr. Kim Murray, licensed marriage & family therapist and perinatal mental health specialist, we break open the truths no one is talking about on Instagram or in the baby books especially around postpartum mental health struggles. 

We cover:

  1. Why perinatal mental health starts before conception and lasts years after birth
  2. The sobering reality: 1 in 5 mothers experience postpartum depression or anxiety
  3. Why intrusive thoughts are more common than you think (and not a sign you’re broken)
  4. The impact of a baby’s arrival on marriage and how to protect your relationship
  5. What “maternal gatekeeping” really is and why it fuels burnout
  6. Small but powerful tools for survival: grounding, 60-second hugs, and the radical act of saying no

Above all, you’ll learn why the mantra “Something’s got to give-but it cannot be me”might just save your sanity.

Whether you’re planning for pregnancy, navigating the newborn haze, chasing toddlers, or redefining your identity as your kids grow, this episode offers validation, strategies, and hope.


Be sure to grab Dr. Kim Murray's Postpartum Support Plan 

About Dr. Kim Murray: 

I am a proud mother of two girls, with a loving husband whom I have called mine for almost 20 years.

Dr. Kim Murray https://www.safehavenfamilytherapy.com/


If you’re ready to stop living on autopilot and start leading your life with deep presence, I’d love to work with you. Book a free interest call here: Click Here

💌 Want more? Follow me on Instagram @themotherhoodmentor for somatic tools, nervous system support, and real-talk on high-functioning burnout, ambition, healing perfectionism, and motherhood. And also pretty epic meme drops.

🎧 Did you love this episode? Be sure to follow and please take a quick moment to leave a review and send this episode to a friend. I'd love to hear from you on how this podcast impacted you, send me a DM or an email.

SPEAKER_00:

Welcome to the Motherhood Metric podcast. I'm Becca, a somatic healing practitioner and a holistic life coach from Mother's podcast is for you. You can expect honest conversations and incredible tests that every area. This is strategy for what we do is I believe we can do this. I love combining deep energy with 3D systems, and no longer talking about what this season is really like. So grab whatever weird health beverage you're currently into, and let's get into it. Welcome to today's episode of the Motherhood Mentor Podcast. Today I have a super special guest with me, and we're gonna be talking a lot about perinatal mental health, but also just about being a mom and mental health in general and how we take care of ourselves, what that actually looks like, the struggles, the ways that we support ourselves through those struggles. And will you just take a moment and introduce yourself for us, Kim? Of course.

SPEAKER_02:

So my name is Kim Murray. I am a licensed marriage and family therapist with my doctorate and about 13 years of experience behind that. I love what I do. I get to support moms, partners, couples in all things mental health, most notably here, perinatal mental health. So from the period of thinking about conception through the first few years of life. And I feel honored to do what I do. I love what I do. Um, I work a lot with my community. I own a group private practice called Safe Haven Family Therapy, where we support the whole family starting at the age of two and a half, all the way up. So it's really neat.

SPEAKER_00:

I love it. When you were talking about the before, this isn't where I plan to start, but I feel like it is important for so many women, their journey to perinatal mental health starts before conception, even. It starts when they're starting to think about getting pregnant. Or, you know, I think of the women who have fertility struggles or secondary fertility struggles, or they have a lot of stuff that comes up even before the pregnancy. I'm curious, like, what is that journey like for women? I think what like what's unexpected for those women?

SPEAKER_02:

And I would argue it even starts with like mate selection, right? Our parents give us a script, or our caregivers give us a script of what kind of partner to look for, of what makes a good dad or a mother, what doesn't make a good partner. And we select based on that too. So it starts even well before that, as we figure out our mate. Women and men go into this, typically thinking just about the excitement, the joy, which is a beautiful thing. But rarely do we take time to pause and think about what are the challenges we're gonna face? Where are the speed bumps our marriage is gonna hit? Where am I gonna struggle individually? Even as, and you and I were chatting about this prior to recording, even as mental health professionals ourselves, I thought I had it all together. I was ready to be a mom. I've studied this for years, it's gonna be totally fine. Had my first, I was not totally fine, right? It was rough. Postpartum was rough, pregnancy was rough, and I wasn't ready for that. So I think for people going into this, we see in Hollywood that fertility is easy. That you have sex one time and you're pregnant, and pregnancy is beautiful and you're glowing, and labor is kind of hard, but it's okay. And then we have this beautiful baby. There's so much more to it. And for some women and their partners, it's even more difficult than say their friends, their family, or whatever Hollywood notions they've seen of pregnancy and birth.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Well, and I think, you know, one of my biggest soapboxes is when I was pregnant, my so my first pregnancy, which ended in a miscarriage, even just the way the doctors treated me, it was like, here's this physiological thing that's happening. There's a baby, there's not a baby. There was literally, I mean, one, which just my heart breaks and I get so mad thinking about this provider didn't even talk to me at all about what was happening. It was the worst experience. But even moving into my second pregnancy, I was at first in the beginning, it was like, oh, you're pregnant and you're gonna have a baby. But I was having so much mental and emotional. I mean, one, I had HG, but I was having you two, sister. Oh, the worst. So high premises bravadero. I'm so happy for you.

SPEAKER_02:

For the birds. That is why we stopped at two. High premises is for the birds.

SPEAKER_00:

It's but like I remember having these care providers just talking to me about what's happening to the baby. And, you know, there's the apps that tell you how big the baby is, and there's the books that like what to expect when you're expecting. And I'm so grateful that I found myself kind of by accident in this world where I had midwives and women around me who weren't just talking about the how of parenting. They were talking about what it actually feels like to go through that. I think of like the women who surrounded me at like La Vete League meetings, where it wasn't just how do I feed my baby? It's me breaking down in tears, being like, I think I know how I'm doing, but I don't know how I'm doing, and I don't know if I'm doing okay, and I don't know if I'm doing this the right way or the wrong way. And there's like 50 million experts who are telling me different things. And some of it doesn't really feel right, but like I don't, when they're like, trust your intuition, I didn't know how to trust my intuition as a new mom. I wasn't connected to my gut. I all the things that I thought I would do as a mom, the ways I thought I would parent, the kind of parent I would want to be, the formula or the breastfeeding or how I would birth, all of that felt deeply emotional. And it woke me up. I had previous trauma and all of that kind of just cracked open in pregnancy and postpartum for me. And I'm so, so grateful that I was in a community where I had language for that. I had people who saw that and supported that because I think of women who, you know, I work with a lot of women who they were very successful. They had these really beautiful, wonderful concepts of self.

SPEAKER_02:

Sure.

SPEAKER_00:

And then they came into parenting or pregnancy or miscarriages or trying to conceive. And even just that was like, wait, what do you mean I'm not in control? Is brutal.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

It takes your sense of self, your core, your sense of identity. Yeah. Right. Because we believe whatever we see, we believe the things on social media. We don't talk about high premises or miscarriages or infertility. It's left in this box of taboo and shame, and keep it to yourself. And so we don't hear those testimonies. We don't know how to support women, they go through it. We don't expect it for ourselves because it's all tucked away. And all we hear about are these really positive stories, which sometimes they appear positive, right? Think about social media here are highlight reel. And women are actually struggling. Their partners are actually struggling, but they're too afraid to say it.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. It can be well, and I think, yeah, and it's and it's hard too because I think there's that positive side of motherhood that's shared.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And then I think there's this other side of motherhood where it's just all miserable and doom and gloom, and you're gonna hate your partner, you're gonna hate yourself, you're gonna lose yourself. And it becomes this whole story that I think we can get caught in. But like there's a reality to that story for so many women. And I think women who are trying to be so positive about it and tuck it away for themselves or for the culture, it's like, how do we talk about these things in a way that allows for the human experience without becoming victims to this story of everything's miserable and it's terrible? When that is part of the reality for some people, for some seasons. I'm curious when someone comes to you, what are some of the first things they ask or say when they're looking for therapy? Because I think for so many women, they're like, How do I know what's normal? How do I know if I'm okay? Because at least with the population I work with, with the woman I work with, they're always gonna be okay. They're always gonna tell you they're fine, they're always gonna feel okay because they're never not in control. That's fair.

SPEAKER_02:

Often it's often it's moms who've had one baby before and recognize I don't want to go through whatever that experience was again. So postpartum depression, postpartum anxiety. Sometimes it's first-time moms that their partner said, Hey, it's time to get support, or they're recognizing I don't like my baby, or I don't feel good in my skin, or I'm thinking about suicide, or whatever it might be. But often it's the mom who's already been through it, who's afraid of doing it again. Yeah. When I have partners and mamas come in, one of the first questions I often get asked is I want to tell you what I'm thinking, or I want to tell you what I'm feeling, but I'm afraid you're gonna take my baby. I'm afraid you're gonna report me to CPS because they're having say intrusive thoughts. Intrusive thoughts might be, I just pictured throwing my baby over the balcony. Do I actually intend throwing my baby over the balcony? No. But that thought went through my brain, it felt icky. So it's ego dystonic, meaning it doesn't agree with me. And now I'm afraid if I tell anyone that, one, I'm the only person that's ever gone through this. Two, people are gonna think I actually want to kill my baby. And three, I'm gonna face judgment and scrutiny, and I can't handle that right now. So that's a big one when people come in of a fear of really sharing how hard it is. If I say I'm struggling to shower more than once a week, are you gonna think I'm neglecting my baby? I'm struggling with breastfeeding. Are you gonna think I'm neglecting my baby? That is often the conversation we're having with moms. With partners, partners tend to be a little more reluctant to come in because there isn't room for the support person or typically the masculine person to get support, to struggle to have their own sense of identity shifts and hormone fluctuations and postpartum depression. We know that for women, it is between one and five and one and seven, women in postpartum will experience postpartum depression and anxiety. We suspect that's actually higher, but because of reporting biases, that's about where it's at. Men are between one and eight and one and ten. Again, we suspect it's higher, but reporting biases. Men are also going through this. Their hormones are changing when they produce oxytocin or that bonding hormone with baby, we see testosterone go down. So they feel that fluctuation. They're also not their only their partner's only affection point. They probably aren't having sex like they're used to. They might feel like a burden or unseen, they might feel incompetent as a parent. And so for male partners, typically it's in that realm of I don't know how to support her, I don't know how to keep our marriage afloat because she's the one that's in charge of the baby. Maternal gatekeeping is what that's called. She is who gets to rule, gets to control, and I am just there as a burden or to provide financially or whatever it might be. That's where people typically start. Yeah. Is a lot of shame. Shame about talking about this experience, feeling like they're the only ones. And is there room for me to express myself?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. When it comes to maternal gatekeeping, I'm curious if you can explain what that looks like and feels like for the mother. Not because the fathers don't matter, but because they're probably most likely not listening to my podcast. Because yes, I mean, you know this about me, but like I'm deeply passionate about the father or the man or the partner's experience and how that impacts you, how it's impacting your experience, how it's impacting their experience, because it's all your own. I mean, quite literally, we don't have villages anymore. So when you're having a baby with someone, they are your village. So when that's cracking, when that connection, when that bond is struggling, which it often does in in parenting, whether that's in the baby season or the toddlers, it for most people they will experience shifts. And sometimes those are hard and then good, and sometimes they are earth-shatteringly hard, and you have to make really big decisions about how to move forward. But I'm curious for that maternal gatekeeping, what does that look like and feel like for the mother? Good question.

SPEAKER_02:

And I want to speak to what you were just saying about it shifting the marriage, and then I'll get to that question. We know that the birth of our first baby is the single largest event that contributes to a decline in marital satisfaction and quality above anything else besides the death of a child. It is the thing that makes marriages shake to their core, completely realigns our marriage and ourselves. And so it's meant to rock you. The question is, how much does it get to rock you, depending on your support system, your coping tools, that village around you? For women, what it feels like for maternal gatekeeping, it feels like burnout, hypervigilance all the time. So I'm aware of baby all the time. It feels like exhaustion, not being able to take a moment for myself without feeling like I'm still responsible for that other human. It can start to feel like resentment towards my partner. Why don't you ever help me? Why am I alone? Why am I doing everything for the baby and you're not doing anything? And the reality is, male partner may have tried to do something, but then got criticized, corrected, put down. Mom might have intervened, and so male partner pulls back even more. Plus, as a society, we don't prep men really to become parents. Whereas we we attempt to prep women, sort of, kind of, but for women, it's a tough one. Most women by and large would say, I don't want that role. But they are put into that role, whether it's societal or within that marriage itself.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Well, and even I think that happens too because there's not other parents around. I mean, you think of the actual village that we crave, and I don't know if you see this too, but I work with women who like they have friends, they have family, they have people, but that's very different to have people in this current society for most people because your acts of parenting are happening alone. Your daily, monotonous, nightly routines and life is primarily happening with just you and the kids. If you had a village, it'd be you and several other adults and several other kids. There would be other people to attune to, other people to regulate with, other people to watch the kids. But I think so many women have like I think they biologically take on this role of I have to be hypervigilant. I have, I'm the one. I have to be the one who's always on, always paying attention. And even if I I think you made a good point here, I think there's a lot of women who have partners who want to be supportive, but like the the dynamics between them as a couple or as parents, they just don't know how to do that. Their nervous system is so in fight and flight, it's so panicked about the care of this baby that they don't slow down and like bring in that that other person who is kind of their village in that home.

SPEAKER_02:

Sure. And sometimes it's out of necessity, right? If mom's staying home with babe, for example, well, male partner's got to go to work, someone's got to pay the bills. And that's also where men kind of get shafted, for lack of a better term, of their role is that not to be parent. And so it really impacts that competency. But again, then it leaves mom alone. We need support. Other cultures, like in Europe, have a sitting in period where it I forget the exact numbers, but it's a I think it's like a week or something, a week and a half, where you're in bed, another week, week and a half of close to bed, and then you can start to gradually go outside of that. In bed means in bed. Someone is providing you meals, someone is taking babies so you can nap. There is a support system around you. And in American culture, we just don't have that. We don't, yeah, we're way behind in terms of supporting families as they build and grow. And this is true not just for first babes. I want to be really clear. We think first babes are the hardest, and for some people, they are. For other people, they're not. Now I have a toddler and a baby, or two toddlers and a baby, and that's a whole different beast. So these challenges don't end at the firstborn, they can happen in any pregnancy, any journey of fertility, any point within the parenting journey.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. What are some of the things that are supportive for people in office and out of office that help massively shift that postpartum period? Oh, good question.

SPEAKER_02:

So baby blues, those are normal. That's that first two weeks, it's up to 14 days after birth, where we feel kind of sad, down, we feel our hormones fluctuating, but our identity doesn't change, our self-esteem doesn't change. When we hit postpartum depression, anxiety, we're now past two weeks, and it's impacting who we are as a human and our ability to function. Being able to recognize the difference in those two is really important. The sooner we can catch postpartum depression and anxiety, or postpartum bipolar, anything like that, the better. Right? Treatment is always most successful the sooner we catch it. Ways we can support. We can fill out a birth plan or a postpartum support plan before Dave is here. Like I give all of my expecting parents when I've created where they lay out what are your typical coping skills or what are things that help you feel better. What do you want to do daily for yourself and like take a shower, eat protein, whatever it might be? What are warning signs that depression and anxiety might be creeping in? Who are my supportive people? And what am I going to do next? Have them put it somewhere like the fridge where they'll see it, their partner will see it. That way, if these symptoms come up, we're getting support as early as we can.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, you've already talked about it. You already have a plan. And I think something powerful that you said that I don't want to just skip over. I think so many people wait so long. And what's the quote? It's like the best time to plant a tree was 10 years ago, the next time is today. And I think for so many people, whether it's mental or emotional or relational health, we wait until we're drowning. We wait until we are sinking. And then, like, to be honest, recovery is so much harder and takes so much longer because you've taken on so much more water. Versus, can we catch this and peek and see, oh, things are shifting in a direction that, like, oh, this isn't just like a bad day. This is like a bad day after a bad day after a bad day. And like it's becoming a trend. It's becoming this whole thing about me and seeing it and then finding help and support early. I think that could be life-changing for so many people.

SPEAKER_02:

And having a community that can be direct with you if they see it. Sometimes we can't see our own pain, our own depression. It's people reflecting it back to us. So when I had my first, I day five, I told my husband to take her back. I remember being in my master room closet, crying on the floor. I didn't want my baby. That this baby I had longed for, I had lost a baby prior to her. Like, I really wanted this baby. And yet, day five, I was like, no, nope, don't want it. That was my husband's cue of ooh, something's wrong, right? This isn't her. This isn't her normal behavior. This doesn't feel like my wife. And so it took him being brave and saying, Hey, love, it's time to get some support. And I'm glad he did, right? Because I couldn't see it. I was so far in the yuck and the weeds. Even as a therapist with my doctorate, I want to point this out. No one's immune. Even as a therapist, I couldn't see my own mental health struggle in that moment. It was overwhelming. It was flooding. So having those people that can be brave in your world and help you see that you need support, not just help you see it, but also help create a list of referrals for you. Sit shoulder to shoulder while you make that first phone call, go to that first session with you, check up with you after that first session and see how it went. Having those consistent people is truly a blessing if you had them. But identify them, tell them that you need them to keep an eye for you. Other things we can do would be things like mindfulness, or you can look up online, there's a billion and one mindfulness strategies. But mindfulness and meditation, where it takes our brain and body out of the past or the future and brings us into the present moment to help our nervous system regulate and calm down. Using our support system when we can to get naps, to bring us food, to do our laundry. Let people support you. This whole idea that we've got to do it all ourselves, we've got to be that perfect mom and partner in all the things without support. Use your support system. We're not meant to do it alone. Therapy is a big one, but medication can be a big one. Medication gets a bad rap is not being safe for pregnancy and postpartum. And there's actually only two classes of medication that aren't. The other ones are safe. And so talking to a psychiatrist, talking to your medical team, if that's an option you want to go to, so that you can enjoy your postpartum in pregnancy, so you can bond with baby. There are lots of options here. And for partner too, not just birthing partner. I cannot punctuate that enough.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Well, because you know, both of you have to be doing well. And the better one of you gets, the more you can support the other person. And I'm curious, what are some like really tangible things someone can do? Like you mentioned mindfulness. What are some like daily rituals or routines that you feel like can really help a mom, especially in that postpartum? But even after, if she's just in a season where she's struggling, like what do you recommend for people to do that's like really tangible that someone could put into practice?

SPEAKER_02:

If it's warm enough outside, take your shoes off, take your socks off, put your feet in the grass, stand there and just breathe or lay there. It sounds weird, but that grounding ritual helps our nervous system regulate unlike anything else. That's a big one. For partnerships, doing a 60-second hug takes about 20 seconds for the human body to produce oxytocin in the touch of another. Say 60 because I want that oxytocin to really be flowing. So ideally, skin to skin, where we're just holding our partner, not with baby present, baby somewhere safe, not with phones or thinking about our grocery list, just for 60 seconds skin to skin with our partner, breathing in rhythm with one another. Taking deep breaths. If you're overwhelmed, if you are getting angry, shutting down, put the baby in a safe place, like crib, walk away. Go outside. We have to give ourselves permission to step away. You don't have to just stay in the yuck. If babe's in a safe place, even if babe's crying, babe will be okay. Take five minutes to go reset your body. Your baby's mood can directly play based on your nervous system, your mood. They regulate based off of you. So if you're hyped up, you're responsible for taking care of that nervous system, which may mean taking a break.

SPEAKER_00:

Which I think, just as a reminder, even if you don't have a baby, this also applies to toddlers and little kids and big kids and teenagers. Like, right? It is it is okay for you to, and in fact, not just okay, but it's really hard to help someone else regulate when you're dysregulated. Oh yeah. And I think so many people are terrified of, and I say terrified, they're mentally not like this is bad, but emotionally, they have this physiological reaction when their baby is crying or their toddler is throwing a fit of, I need to fix this. And sometimes it's this like, I need this to stop so that I can be okay. And sometimes it's this, oh, it is my job to make sure that this little being is always happy and healthy. And it's like, that's not a realistic goal for your child. They are going to have a human experience. And this act of pulling, even if you just emotionally pull back, this is something that I encourage moms on a regular basis. You can be standing in front of your toddler, but you can pull your energy and emotion back into your body and check in on like, can I feel my spine? Can I feel my feet on the floor? Can I get a quick drink? Can I check in on me? Because I think so often, I mean, it's biologically necessary for a while for a mother to be overly attuned to that baby, right? But especially as they become toddlers, it's so important for us to be able to like you exist outside outside of that dynamic. You exist outside of what they want and need from you. And it's actually so healthy for your baby and for your toddler to have a mother who exists outside of them, who has a way to regulate that's not them being regulated. But I think that's very hard for the modern mother. One, just cultural norms. And two, I think we just don't talk about how dysregulating it is. Like even to have happy, healthy kids.

SPEAKER_02:

It is hard. And when you think about where we go for support if we don't have super close friends, or even if we do, we look to social media. And social media has the ability to shame you for every single thing you do. People who are on their keyboards think they are the experts of every single thing you do. And the real idea is we're all struggling, all of us, right? So as a mom, I'm already struggling and I'm like, shoot, I can't breastfeed, I'm not producing enough milk. I'm gonna have to go to formula. Okay, I'm gonna do formula, I'm okay with it. Then I open up Facebook and there's a post shaming formula feeding. Oh my gosh, I'm the worst mom that has ever mommed. I shouldn't have this baby. And we're off to the races in the shame cycle. So now if I'm already shamed over here and then I can't help my baby stop crying, I really am a piece of shit. Why am I a mom? The amount I hear that makes me tear up because moms are constantly questioning Should I be a mom? I'm not good enough. I'm not as good as Suzy Q down the street, I'm not as good as Bridget over here, or whoever. You don't have to be. You get to be your own version of mom or dad or partner or whoever. The confidence confidence comes in knowing ourselves and knowing how to regulate ourselves, support ourselves. Doesn't mean it's not gonna be hard, but can I know that I can be a lighthouse when my father's having a breakdown? I can stand there strong without absorbing the storm. Can I know that if my baby's overwhelming me, I will walk away to let myself regulate and babe will be okay. Can I know that I'm making the best choice for my baby, not Suzy Q's baby? If that's a hard place for you to go, which it often is, feeling confident, get support. Go to a women's breastfeeding group or a walk-in group, somewhere where you feel safe, safe to be a mess, to ask the questions to fall apart sometimes.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, okay. And it's okay to not know everything. I think so, yeah, especially especially the women. So I became a mom super young, super early. And I had I think I had a permission of like, it's okay that I don't know what I'm doing. Sure. The clients I've met who became mothers later in life, right? Like they Became a mother in their 30s or their late 20s, like they had some life behind them, right? Like I was a literal baby when I had my babies. I didn't have a whole life. I didn't have a career. I didn't have this big thing of this is who I am and this is what I do and I'm very successful. I didn't have any of that. So, like in some ways, I was starting at ground zero and that gave me a lot because I had nothing to lose, right? I think a lot of women come into, I mean, even conception, like we were talking about earlier, or having a baby, or motherhood, or postpartum, or maybe it's when you have your baby, but then you have to go back to work and they go, I don't know what I'm doing. Like I technically am doing it, but I don't feel like I know what I'm doing. And it and it robs them of that confidence just because they're new at it. But the reality is that we live in a culture that we're not living arm in arm with other moms. We don't see how they're doing it. The only how-to's of motherhood we mostly have, unless you're in like a group. And this is why I love, I really feel like in-person groups are so key for motherhood. You're only seeing people's cutesy tips and tricks and strategies. And like at the end of the, I love a good strategy. Give me a good plan, give me a good habit, give me a good routine. I am a sucker for it, right? Like sell me on your new planner shit. I got this. But what happens when your plan hits the fan? What happens when that morning routine that worked magically? You know, you see these. I even saw something the other day, and this mom was like, I wake up at 4:30 a.m. every day to like get my stuff done. And she, and it was, I was just kind of interested in it. And I was like, I wonder what the comments say. And I started reading the comments, and so many people were like, you know, they were saying the word to get her magic morning routine, right? But someone asked the question, how do you get up that early? And she goes, I go to bed at eight. And they were like, Well, how do you go to bed at eight? And she was like, I just do. And they were like, Well, what do you do with the kids? And she's like, you just figure it out. And I had this moment of like, that might work for you right now. Right. And I hope it works for you forever. It might. There are some women, but like for most women that I know, the women that like I deeply intimately get a hear from, both professionally and personally, that morning routine for you at that 4:30 a.m. wake up with your 8 p.m. bedtime, that works lovely right now. But what about when your kids start going to school and do sports and you're not eating dinner till 8 p.m.? That might not work anymore. What if 8 to 10 is the only time you get a talk to your partner or snuggle with your partner or have like, what if that's your only alone time during the day because your life changes? And I think that's so hard for us because we we have this culture that has told us there's a perfect strategy, there's a perfect way to control this, there's a perfect way to set this up that works and then always works. And I'm over here like it's a season. If it works right now, awesome, keep doing it. But if it stops working, it doesn't mean you've failed. And it doesn't mean you keep having to do that thing if it's not working anymore. It means you might have to do something else. And I think that is a huge struggle in motherhood that I don't hear people talk about is I think so much of the shame and the guilt is this tension of constantly having to renegotiate what matters and what's important and where my time and energy and focus is going. And I'm curious, like for you, for like what you know of motherhood and what you see in the women that you work with, what are those moments of tension? What are those things that like society has set us up of like this is the gold standard that like there might be something underneath it where it's like, yeah, that's great. I'm not saying don't do that, but I am saying it's okay if that doesn't work for someone else.

SPEAKER_02:

100%. I think about control, right? When you talk about that, all I hear is I want to control. Yeah. For those who don't know yet, parenting is not about control all the time. Sometimes shit is just out of control. And can you lean into that? Can you ride with the mask? Can you kind of just take it season by season? A big place they see this is sleep, right? Especially sleep regression, sleep training. Kids need to be in their own rooms, whatever it might be. Okay, here's a little insight. I have an eight-year-old and a four-year-old. My four-year-old still sleeps in my bedroom. That shakes people to their core because it they have all kinds of assumptions about why. The reality is she's a pack animal and she feels safest when she's in our room, and I want my kids to feel safe. Full stop. And for other people, oh my gosh, I can't imagine. How does that work for you? It works better for us because she's sleeping through the night, she's not crying in the middle of the night, she's not scared, she's regulated. It works for us. Other families would never, and that's okay. They get to make that choice. Sleep training at six months. If you don't do fervor or whatever, well, you're gonna mess up their sleep for the rest of their life. It's this incredible pressure of between 16 months is your only sleep window, and you must do it exactly this way, otherwise, X, Y, and Z.

SPEAKER_00:

Is that still a popular motherhood thing? Because that was that was huge when I was a new mom, but like I have big kids, right? Like I have a 13 and a 10-year-old. So, like, my I'm kind of out of that like sleep scenario. I thought that could have that cultural narrative had changed a lot. Not really.

SPEAKER_02:

Cry it out has. We know that cry it out, so true cry it out, put your baby in the crib and you leave them there no matter how long they cry. Ferber is a modified where we come in and distinct timed intervals to soothe for about a minute and then leave again. Cry it out is no longer supported. It increases cortisol in babes, it's not good for their neurodevelopment. It really is not supported by physical or mental health researchers. Ferber, as well as some other methods, it's still a big thing. That and food. So infant-led weaning versus purees. Or what is it called? Or you let them have real food. I did it with mine. Oh, like baby-led weaning. Yes, and anyway, letting them have whole foods versus purees, or when to stop breastfeeding and when you should let the baby decide, right? These are places where women really want to control. And at some point we need to it's gonna happen, what's gonna happen? Or we're gonna listen to our gut instinct of what's best for our house. Not my neighbor's house, not my best friend's house, our house. That is kind of the crux for me of some of this parenting stress that I see is I have I am supposed to. I should be, right? We're shooting on ourselves all the time. My child should be sleeping independently by accident. My child should be potty tree, my child should be whatever. And there's a fundamental piece to some of this, and some of this we rush simply because culture tells us to, or friends tell us to, or our mother-in-law tells us to, or whatever. Listen to your gut. Did I think that four-year-olds should be sleeping in their parents' room at this point? No, sure didn't. But slice of humble pie, she feels safe. She's not crying every night saying I'm scared. Cool, I am signed up for that.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I wish I I wish I could go back to how I parented before I was a parent. Man, I was so good. I was like the professional parent who parented. I was such a good parent before I was an actual parent. But no, like all jokes aside, the ideas I had about how I would parent and who I would be and what it would look like was so different than the actual thing. And I mean, one, there's like the amount of choices I made where like I thought I would do one thing and then I became this completely different person. I'm sure my whole family was like, what the hell is happening? Right. Cause like in my story, right, I went from like hospital birth, seeing an OB to, oh, I'm gonna do a hospital midwife birth to I'm gonna do a home birth. And right, I'm how old was I? I was like 20. Love it. And like I didn't thinkfully, like I thankfully I had some people in my world where like that was a thing and that was normal and it was talked about. And but there were so many people who were like, I'm sure they were like, what is she doing? And then I was like wearing the baby everywhere, and I brought the baby to mops. I can remember, I don't remember anyone else who kept their baby with them and then would just nurse them in the middle of mops. The babies went to the nursery, and I would have several moms be like, you need to just go put her in the nursery. And I'm like, We're good. She's fine, she hates the nursery, she freaks out. I'm we're good, I'm good, she's good. And I'm like, if if you love putting your baby in the nursery, great, this is what we're doing, and it works for us. But I like there's so many things that I chose differently, and I'm so glad I saw other women in my community because it gave me this realization of like, there's so many different ways to be a really good mom. There's so many different ways to be a really good mom. And I had to find who I was as a mom, what what I was good at as a mom. And let's be honest, I'd probably be a different mom if I had a baby today than 13 years ago, Becca. I would be a different person. I'm a different mom. I need different things, I want different things. All that to say, I think so many of us, we have this pressure, this script that we don't logically know of of what we're gonna be like, what it's gonna feel like, what it's gonna look like. And I think there is a massive grief. There is a massive identity change for so many women of, I didn't know it would look like this. I didn't know it would feel like this. I thought if I could just get the right formula, this was me, super high control, super perfectionistic. I would have never used that word for myself. But I came into motherhood like, I'm gonna be the best at this. I'm gonna read the books, I'm gonna do all the things. And then I think of like a great example of this. I was doing all of the things to make sure my daughter was super healthy, right? I had, I was like, for her first birthday, I kid you not, I got so much shit for this. I made her a gluten-free pancake and a dairy-free yogurt as the icing for her birthday cake because she didn't have sugar, she didn't have food. I love that, Becca, right? And I'm not mocking moms who do that. For me, I was it was fear and it was anxiety. And you know what? That baby got into preschool and she was sick 50 times more than any other kid. I nursed her forever. I breastfed, I did all of the right things. I did all of the right things. I remember I spent the first few years of like those school in a constant panic because she was always sick. And I kept thinking, what am I doing wrong? What supplements do we need? Oh, it's because we're not, and it's like, yes, logically now I can look back and be like, oh, I was so anxious and I was so controlling and I was so, I was grasping for control. And I remember, you know, I'm grateful I had I had a friend whose daughter had some really intense medical needs, and we were talking, and she was like, I'm constantly fearful my daughter will die. But she had that lived reality. Like she actually had some reasons why that might happen. I really didn't. And all of a sudden I was like, I have that so many times. I'll put her to bed. And it's like what Brene Brown talks about that, like that pre, what does she call it? Dang it. She has a really beautiful phrase for it where like you feel this immense amount of love and joy, and then in the next crippling fear and grief of like, what if this is taken away from me? But I think in that season, I had to learn like this is not in my control. Like, there's no amount of doing the right things that prevent her from getting sick because getting sick is part of the human experience. I think part of that's primal, though, right?

SPEAKER_02:

We have this primal instinct to protect our young. Think caveman times here. Men had a primal instinct to spread their seed as far and fast as possible before getting eaten by that saber-toothed tiger. Women were responsible for finding a good partner that could protect them, and then keeping the young safe. That primal drive has not left. It is in every species that we know of. Well, most every species. Some species eat their young, don't eat your young.

SPEAKER_00:

I didn't eat my kid today.

SPEAKER_02:

When but we have this primal drive, and people want to logic their way out of it. The reality is those are two different parts of the brain, and you're not gonna logic yourself out of something primal and instinctual. You're not. That part of the brain is not meant to be louder than the protective part of your brain. Think about if there's a bear, you're gonna protect your baby. You're also not gonna be thinking logic of how to get out of the situation. You're going to be acting on impulse. That's by design. When we can lean into that and accept that part of ourselves rather than shame that part of ourselves, it becomes much more tolerable. And in fact, we show it respect. We meet ourselves differently when we see that it's not a me problem, it's part of being a parent, it's part of human species, it's part of whatever. Yeah, it's not if you could just do this thing, if you could just be less controlling, if you could just be less anxious, less depressed, less whatever. It's not a choice, you didn't choose into it, you can't choose your way out of it. You can't choose into an anxiety, and you can't choose your way out of it. You can make choices to support it, to facilitate healing or growth, but you cannot. Let me say it doubly loud here. You cannot choose your way out of postpartum depression, anxiety, bipolar, psychosis. None of it. None of it. It's not your fault. It's not your fault that your toddler is making you want to climb the walls. It's not your fault that you get angry and overwhelmed. It's not, but you do have a responsibility of choice of how you're gonna treat it, how you're gonna support it. That is where the responsibility comes. We stop judging everyone for how they're feeling and start supporting how we can do something differently. Oh, you know how much more beautiful that'd be?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, it's like uh in, you know, I look back to that season and it's like, you know, my nervous system thought everything was a bear. And that wasn't my fault. It was there was a lot of different reasons, and now I cognate, you know, cognitively knowing why didn't actually change it. So there was a season where I was just obsessed with like, well, why? Like, why is this so hard for me? But what helped more than that is okay, how do I teach my body and my nervous system and my soul to not think everything is a bear, to be able to like right, to like pre to be able to be present with someone with my toddler having a meltdown and knowing she's safe, she's okay, I'm okay. I don't feel okay, I don't feel okay, but I am safe. And learning those tools and those skills, I didn't want to have to do that. I thought it would all just come natural to me. You know, I was someone who was, I guess you could say, obsessed with becoming a mom. That's all I ever wanted. That's all I ever wanted to do was be a mom. And I came into it thinking, like, I'm gonna be so good at this. And there was a lot of like, I did have a natural nurturing in nature. Like I'm really grateful for for that aspect of my personality. And when I got to the toddler phase of it, for me, like, and I even I did have I had postpartum depression and anxiety that I dealt with, and that almost felt easier than the toddler phase, even once I was out of the postpartum stuff, because that's when my nervous system and my trauma shit really hit the fan. That's when I started having like some stuff going on where I was going, I can't do this on my own. And that wasn't, I think so many people they have that moment come up and it's like a shame thing.

SPEAKER_02:

100%.

SPEAKER_00:

And I think for me it was for a while until it was like, I can't do this. How do I find people who can teach me how? Because so much of it honestly was skills, it was skill sets of nervous system regulation and conflict strategies and boundaries and legitimate parenting strategies. I did need different parenting strategies because the ones that I knew from growing up, they didn't work with my the way that I wanted to parent, but I didn't know how else to do it. And knowing development, what's developmentally normal and appropriate?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, what do we actually need to correct and what don't we need to correct? I love that you bring up that example of parenting. So I think back to say my oldest newborn stage for me. Nope, hated it awful. Probably for both, but especially with my first my husband, excellent with babies. So he led in the newborn stage. It was not a traditional setup in that way. Toddler stage, oh, I can deal with temper tantrums. For him, he's like you. No, nope, no, thank you. And so what you think might be your strength or what being a good parent looks like changes by season. I wasn't the person doing that besides to nurse. My husband and I would rotate. So I would wake up first, go nurse babe, and then I would tap him and I'd go back to bed while he put babe back down. Know your strengths, know your weaknesses. We all have them. It doesn't make you a bad parent, it just makes you you that there are different parts of you that are stronger than others.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

And I love that you point that out because we both have a lot of training in this space, have great wisdom in this space, and yet it didn't spare you from toddlerhood, and it didn't spare me from the newborn stage at all.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Well, and even, I mean, I even think of the teenage phase. We started getting into the teenage phase, and I went, oh, I need new strategies, I need a new skill set, I need a higher emotional regulation and intelligence, I need better energetic boundaries, right? Like I started going, oh, I need to evolve and grow with my kids. And I think that is something unexpected for a lot of people. And I'm I'm curious if you've had this experience too. A lot of a lot of the women I've worked with, not all of them, but some of them, they are emotionally, mentally, relationally, can they continue to mature and grow? Their parents are the same people their parents used to be. So they're looking at their parent and very much fundamentally, their parent today is very much still the person who raised them. They are emotionally developed past their parents. And so they literally don't even have someone to look to to say, oh, it's normal for me in my 40s as a very successful grown adult to still have struggles that I'm figuring out how to overcome, to still have challenges that I come up to and go, I don't have the muscle for this, I don't have the backbone for this, or I don't have the flexibility. I don't know how to let go of control of this thing. That is such a beautiful thing that I think is I think it's unique in this generation. And I think we go to the extremes of it sometimes. We do. We do. As all things, right? Like it, you know, the your greatest weakness is so often your greatest strength under or overutilized. But I think so many women that's they struggle as parents because you're growing up in a new way along with your kids. And I don't, I don't know if the women that I'm working with ever saw that happen in their parents. I don't think they ever saw their parents grow up. Their parents didn't change their minds. Their parents didn't own bad behaviors, if you will. Their parents didn't share mental emotional health struggles in adulthood. It was either we're miserable and we stay that way, and this is just the way that it is, or their parents gave off the very authoritarian, I know everything, I've got this, you're always the problem. But they're still like that as adults. It's just it's something I it's something interesting to me.

SPEAKER_02:

It happens more than people might think, where there's the rigidity between generations, especially right now, this chasm between the two, right? As I talk about, say, I'll use this example with my girls. We are big on body autonomy. What that means is they get to choose where their body is in space, who touches it, their boundaries, not me, not anyone else. They get to choose it. So when we say goodbye to say grandparents, I'll say, Do you want to give grandma a hug? My daughters have the right to say no without guilt. So not saying, Well, it would be nice if, or you're gonna make grandma sad if nope, if they say no, cool, we're done. That was a big one for my dad. My mom is deceased, so for my dad and my in-laws to adjust to, not because they were doing anything wrong, but because grandkids hug their grandparents. Like, this is weird, and so there's this dissonance that's happening that being transparent, our support system has fully come on board with. But that's not always the case for everyone. There is a pushback. There is a well, you just don't know anything. I know I'm older than you, and you're elder, and you're superior, I'm your parent. And it is a big tension point, especially too if there's a difference in the way you and your partner want to parent or interact with this, or how your parents and your in-laws interact with this, it can create massive tension and relationships. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, I mean, I was I was noticing the other day, I was talking to who was it? I don't remember, but I was realizing that like so many women that I've worked with, they're not just navigating the relationship to their kids in the parenting realm, in the motherhood realm. A huge thing that comes up is they're renavigating their relationship to their parents. It massively changes for them when they have a baby. And for some women, it's the I don't, I thought my parents would be here for me, especially like the mom comes up, that mother wound, that mother longing of like, I wanted my mom to be here. Whether she's here and she's not here, or she's gone, she's passed away, or she's moved away. There's this, like, there's this longing for a relationship to a mother and a father that changes for so many women when they become a parent. And I don't feel like that is talked about outside of if you have horribly toxic parents. I think that's extreme. There's that extreme. There's that, like, oh, you have your parents who you're no contact with because they're awful, terrible people. Well, for most people, and you know, granted, I'm working with a very specific community of people, I guess you could say, you know, I'm I'm not a therapist, so I'm not working with someone who's in this like extremely harsh, awful dynamic with a narcissistic, right? But that's the rarity. That's not the common, yes, that but I think that culture tells us these scripts and these boundaries of how to cut them off. And it's like either full access or no access. Where I think most women are walking through this. How do I navigate having a relationship with these people that's changed? They the what they expect from me and need from me, I'm not that person anymore. I'm not that girl, I'm not, I'm not okay with those boundaries anymore. I don't want to relate to this anymore. I don't know how to talk to my mom about this, or I don't want to hurt feelings.

SPEAKER_02:

That happens all the time. Of I'm afraid to say this is my boundary or this is how we're parenting, because you, parent, my parent, is gonna take that personally. So instead of advocating for self, I tuck it in because I don't want to make you sad, which we can't make anyone feel anything. Soapbox, but I don't want to make you feel sad or I don't want to feel guilty. So I just keep it to myself and live in this dissonance within my own body.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, there's so many dynamics. And I wonder if we if this is a good place to not wrap it up, but to end the conversation of think of just the dynamics we talked about in this call. We're not even talking about hormones, we're not even talking about trauma histories, we're not even talking about the relationship you have with your co-parent and your your home-taking skills, right? Like I think of me as a new mom. I didn't have the skills built up. I had the logic of what to do, but I didn't have the embodiment of like taking care of a home. It's like there's so many layers to who you are and what you're walking through as a person in this season.

SPEAKER_02:

And it can be your socioeconomic status, your access to child care. Are your friendships deep quality ones where you can be authentic or are they surface level? And that's what you have to have because what other option do you have? Are you alone? Do you have a support system? There are so many factors to this, even emotions like fear or anger towards parts of our system, towards ourself. Maybe we didn't choose our pregnancy, maybe you could go on forever on these contact acts, and each one of those colors your lived experience.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

So as we talk about this, it's gonna sound to some people like broad brush strokes, or that's not me. And that's true because there are such a wide variety of experiences and beliefs and values. The key part of here is what are your beliefs? What are your values? How do you embody those? How do you support yourself when things get hard? How do you lean on whatever network you've got around you? How do you not blame yourself for struggling with parenthood, struggling with feeling like shit, struggling with getting out of bed? It's not your fault.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Training a mental health is a brute. It is a long period of time that impacts people for a lifetime. And it is not something we should be shaming people in and out of. We should be rallying because it is hard. Across the board, it is hard. If someone tells you that it hasn't been hard for them, chances are other lying to you because it is. Rocks your entire world.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, and I do, I do think there are some people where it genuinely hasn't been that hard for them, and that doesn't mean your experience, right? And like that, that could be their think of all of these different layers. It could quite literally be all of those layers. And as we wrap this up, I'm thinking of how many different layers, because I think this can feel overwhelming when you start thinking of how many different issues are on a mom. And I think that's one of the biggest things is it can be so overwhelming to have to think about and feel into all of these different things and all of the different things that you're choosing and not choosing, or that you have the illusion of choice for. And here's what I will say is it's always the straw that breaks the camel's back. People like that's such a common saying. But like I always add to that, but it's the little straws that make sure the camel's back doesn't break. These little layers of support and these small choices that seem so insignificant. I think, especially in postpartum, or even not postpartum, even if we're talking about a grief season or a hard healing season, or you're in a space where you're struggling, you have to just you have to bring your perspective back into what is a choice I'm making right now that supports me? What is one small hinge? What is one small thing I can do that will take care of me, that will take care of one of those straws? Is it calling a therapist? Is it making a post in your Facebook group of who has a therapist in the area that they recommend? And then meet three of them. Maybe that's your step one. Maybe your step one is taking a nap. Maybe your step one is literally just calling a girlfriend and saying, I'm struggling. I think I need help. I need someone to know that. I need someone to help me like help me know what to do next. Someone tell me what to do because I don't know what to do anymore. Those small little hinges, those small little layers of support of it's okay if you can't figure all of it out right now. It's okay if you can't make it all better today or tomorrow or after a couple therapy sessions. It's going to take some. time and you're worth that effort. I'm curious, I'm curious for you, what are some of those small little steps or those those hinge points that someone can do if they're struggling? Good question.

SPEAKER_02:

Take the shower. Don't underestimate the power of a hot shower, even if it's three minutes. Take the shower. Put on normal clothes that you feel good in. Go outside, put your feet in the grass. You heard me mention that before it is worth repeating. Reaching out to our people, having someone bring you a meal, eating something or drinking something that feels good for you. It's the little things that either bring calm to your body or bring joy to your body. It doesn't have to be massive things. It can be just little moments. While baby's napping, please don't do the dishes take a nap. Do some yoga do something that feels good for your soul not just in service of your household.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Yeah. You know, as you were saying that I thought of there was a season where I remember feeling something's got to give. Something's gonna give something's gonna give and then like this thing rose up inside me. I don't know if it was God. I don't know if what it was I don't know if I heard it somewhere but it was like something's got to give but it cannot be me. And on my worst hardest moments still to this day it's not just then it's not just what I did then it's what I do now sometimes there are moments where I say something's got to give it will not be me. It cannot be me. It can be the dishes it can be not cooking dinner we're doing frozen nuggies. It can be anything but me. I can't be the thing that gives I can't be the thing that snaps and whatever it takes I have to have my back because like it it's me for me.

SPEAKER_02:

Bingo and we think of that as selfish right of taking care of myself as selfish. I should be focusing on baby partner house all the extra things think about the corny metaphor of the airplane I put the mask on my child first and I pass out who's gonna help me no one I have to put mine on first in order to help my child my partner you have to take care of you if you're going to have capacity strength to give a fox to take care of others right if I'm dysregulated and worn out my baby's gonna be dysregulated right along with me because I'm responsible for regulating the nervous system it will make it so much harder and that's really rich coming from someone who struggled through postpartum right along with you. But if you can take just a little bit take that five minutes outside and take a deep breath wear clothes that are comfortable don't put on clothes that feel tight restrictive itchy let your nervous system have a break there.

SPEAKER_00:

Eat foods that feel good for your gut why because we don't want to irritate the nervous system further do the things that again bring you calm and bring you joy that is how we cope through this and they can be little things that stack up to some really big outcomes yeah well and I I love that you said it's coming rich coming from me but here's the thing this medicine is easy to talk about it tastes terrible to take and I think that's the thing is I think social media it glamifies and glorifies because you see these people doing it and they look happy when I go on a mental health walk 10 out of 10 times I don't feel good. I'm I'm going to walk because I don't feel good and I need to do something but I think people don't talk about that enough of it doesn't always feel good to take the medicine you need being taking care of yourself self-care doesn't always feel good and gooey. It it's like dragging a teenager to be like you need to shower you haven't showered enough or you think of a toddler you think of okay if you have a toddler this is the easiest sometimes you parenting yourself sometimes self-care for you is going to be like having your toddler eat vegetables or taking a bath or going right getting a toddler to do the most simple things that you know is good for them and they don't want to do it that is how self-care is going to feel for you sometimes. And often the stuff you need the most it doesn't necessarily always taste great when you first start doing it. It doesn't always feel easy like I think of my super type A perfectionistic moms rest does not feel good at first creativity and letting go of control does not feel pleasant. It feels like death it feels terrible and it's like yeah because you're not used to it and yet it's the corny attitude of you have to go through the rain to get to the rainbow it might get heavier in terms of rain before you see that rainbow.

SPEAKER_02:

It might feel kind of you might feel guilty you might feel shame you might feel whatever on the journey there and then there's that moment of oh I'm really glad I did that for me today. The more and more you have those moments the easier it gets and sometimes life is so busy that we're we think to ourselves like I don't have time.

SPEAKER_00:

I want you to look at your phone usage look at how many minutes you spent on social media your games you've got time I promise I'm asking for five minutes not five hours yeah five minutes you have to make allocating it yeah you have to make it a priority you have to get ruthless you have to get ruthless about it in the same way that you would if your kid was struggling if your kid was struggling how much would you pay a therapist if your kid was struggling the way you were if your kid was struggling you would make you would find the time I promise you you would find the time and like is it easier for some people to find the time yes it is you still have to find the time you still have to find the money you still have to find the space and even if it's in the margins ideally you're not caring for yourself in the margins and there are absolutely seasons and days where if that's where it happens that's where it happens again those small little moments they build up they build up either to support you and help you feel better or they add up and they keep making you feel worse and worse and worse.

SPEAKER_02:

Good at saying no this idea that no is a bad thing no is sometimes advocating for self.

SPEAKER_00:

If you think about something you have to do that day besides work because work is a necessity say it's going to a social function or having people over if your body is telling you I don't want to do this this doesn't feel good say no I encourage you to practice it without guilt and shame afterwards right really whole and body brace of the word no there's so much freedom to be found in no not today I love that so much thank you so much for being on the podcast I can talk about this for days I know it's my jam it's the best I thank you guys so much for joining us today and we would love to hear from you if you loved this episode we would love to hear like what are your nuggets that you took away what questions do you have what would you add to it we would love to hear from you so definitely leave a leave a comment leave a review send one of us a DM our info will be in the show notes but thank you so much Kim for being here today. Thank you thanks for joining me on today's episode of the Motherhood Mentor podcast make sure you have subscribed below so that you see all of the upcoming podcasts that are coming soon. I hope you take today's episode and you take one aha moment one small tangible piece of work that you can bring into your life to get your hands a little dirty to get your skin in the game don't forget to take up audacious space in your life if this podcast moved you if it inspired you if it encouraged you please do me a favor and leave a review send an episode to a friend this helps the show gain more traction it helps us to support more moms, more women and that's what we're doing here. So I hope you have an awesome day take really good care of yourself and I'll see you next time

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