Understanding and Healing Attachment Styles with therapist Hannah Dorsher

What if secure attachment isn’t about perfect parenting-but about steady leadership, honest repair, and a strong nervous system you can share with your kids?

In this conversation, therapist and mom of three Hannah Dorscher joins Becca to demystify attachment theory and bring it down to earth. Together they unpack the four attachment styles-secure, avoidant, anxious, and disorganized-and translate them into real-life tools you can use with newborns, toddlers, teens, and even your own relationships. 

You’ll learn how to:

1. Build earned secure attachment even if you didn’t have it growing up
2. Repair after rupture (without guilt or over-explaining)
3. Regulate before you co-regulate
4. Use the “30% rule” to release perfectionism
5. Recognize the difference between healthy dysregulation and attachment wounding
6. Create nervous-system rituals that make home feel safe again

From postpartum overwhelm and partnership strain to teen pushback and mom guilt, this episode offers grounded, evidence-based guidance with room for your real life.

About Hannah:

I’m Hannah Dorsher, a therapist and attachment coach who helps moms heal anxiety and attachment wounds so they can feel confident, connected, and at ease in motherhood. With over a decade of experience and a Master’s in Counseling, I empower women to trust their instincts, build secure bonds with their children, and release the pressure and shame of “perfect” parenting.

Find Hannah: 

Instagram

www.hannahdorshercoaching.com

If you’re ready to stop living on autopilot and start leading your life with deep presence, I’d love to work with you. Book a free interest call here: Click Here

💌 Want more? Follow me on Instagram @themotherhoodmentor for somatic tools, nervous system support, and real-talk on high-functioning burnout, ambition, healing perfectionism, and motherhood. And also pretty epic meme drops.

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Chapters

• 0:00 Welcome & Show Intent
• 0:48 Meet Hannah & Attachment Basics
• 2:18 What Secure Attachment Looks Like
• 4:37 Insecure Styles: Avoidant, Anxious, Disorganized
• 7:20 Is Attachment Fixed? The Power of Repair
• 10:55 Repair Without Willing Parents; Self-Compassion
• 14:55 Mothers’ Styles Shaping Kids
• 18:30 Over-Attunement, Anxiety, and Boundaries
• 22:10 When Attachment Issues Surface Across Seasons
• 26:05 Therapy Myths, Safety, and Window of Tolerance
• 30:05 Building Secure Attachment Daily
• 34:05 Quality vs Quantity Time
• 37:10 Marriage, Friendship, and Your Village
• 41:20 Small Steps, Lasting Hope & Closing

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:02

Welcome to the Motherhood Mentor Podcast. I'm Becca, a somatic healing practitioner and a holistic life coach for moms, and this podcast is for you. You can expect honest conversations and incredible gets that speak to health, healing, and growth in every area of life. This isn't just strategy, but what we do, it's important. I believe we can be wildly ambitious while still holding all of our stuff in our humanity as we. I love combining deep inner healing with strategic systems and no nonsense talk about what this season is really like. So grab whatever weird health beverage you're currently into and let's get into it. Welcome to today's episode of the Motherhood Mentor Podcast. I'm so excited for my guest today. I have Hannah Dorscher, and she is going to talk to us about attachment. It's a conversation and a topic that I think really needs to be had. It's something that I think a lot of moms and a lot of kids are navigating and struggling. And so I'm just really, really excited to have you. Hannah, will you introduce yourself?

SPEAKER_01: 1:07

Yes, of course. Thank you for having me. My name is Hannah. I'm a licensed therapist here in Fort Collins, Colorado. I also do attachment coaching for women and moms. I am a mom of three myself. I've got a four-year-old boy, a three-year-old boy, and a six-month-old baby girl. And yeah, I'm married to my best friend. We love all the typical Colorado stuff. And yeah, basically what I do with therapy is help moms and women heal their attachment wounds. And I think throughout probably the course of this podcast, I'll use the term attachment a ton. And so maybe we can start with sort of talking through just the basics of what I even mean when I'm saying attachment and what different attachment styles are. And then we can talk a little bit about how different things that can affect attachment, like birth trauma, if that's all right.

SPEAKER_00: 2:05

Yeah, absolutely. Let's jump into like for people who are new, what is attachment and why does it so why does it matter so much in motherhood for us as mothers and then also for our kids?

SPEAKER_01: 2:18

Yeah. So attachment is essentially the quality of the bond that a mom or caregiver for the for this podcast, I'll just say mom, but um, it can be caregivers in general. Um, but it's the quality of the bond that the caregiver makes with the child. So that is what's going to lay the groundwork for your attachment style. And so there's a there's two different categories of attachment: there's secure attachment and insecure attachment. Secure attachment is what we're all striving for. It's what we all want, it's what we want our kids to have. And basically the gist of a secure attachment style is this baby's mom is present, they are emotionally available, they are responsive to the baby's needs and just like in tune with what the baby needs, right? It's kind of like when you're a mom and you get that sense of, oh, that cry means baby's hungry, or oh, that cry means baby is super tired, right? And you just sort of create this like in-syncness with a baby. When a baby experiences that, basically what they're learning is I can trust other people to meet my needs. I can use my voice and my needs will get met, and I'm safe. And when we look at what that does to relationships like long term, right? This really lays the groundwork for the types of relationships that they're gonna seek in their life too, in terms of like friendships, romantic partners, all of that kind of stuff. So it's it's crazy, but we're doing so much groundwork as moms, like right off the bat with our kids in terms of attachment. And a secure attachment on the mom's end with the baby is gonna feel like it's it's gonna feel again like you're just in sync with your baby. And that that creates more confidence as a mom, right? Like when you feel like I know my baby and I can, I'm comfortable and confident in meeting their needs, you feel good, right? And that's that sense of like, I feel like I'm in sync and under I understand my baby strengthens that bond even more and perpetuates even more of those behaviors that create a secure attachment. So that's secure. And then we have insecure attachment, and there's a couple different categories of an insecure attachment. So they're just the broad definition of insecure attachment. This is sort of this the opposite sense from secure. So this might look like sort of feeling not safe, not heard, not able to trust other people. And this really happens when mom or caregiver can't be present with the baby. Maybe they're really overwhelmed with other stuff going on there in their life, or you know, like with a birth trauma, you you come out of that and you're dealing with so much of your own trauma, it's hard to be totally emotionally available for that, for your baby, right? And so maybe sometimes you're you're present and available, and then other times you're shut off and withdrawn or cold, right? Or maybe you're so overwhelmed that you're getting angry or super anxious, right? The baby's experience of this is gonna feel really inconsistent for them. And so they're not over time creating enough of a consistent experience to build that trust with you. And so we tend to see three different types of an insecure attachment. There's avoidant. So this type of attachment looks like a child or a person who avoids relying on another person, right? So they might feel like it's just easier or safer to kind of go inward and rely on themselves. So being vulnerable with another person is gonna be really hard. They might stonewall, ghost, all of those kinds of things in later life. As a kid, it might look like over-independence. Like they're they don't need to rely on mom, or when you walk in the room, they don't really acknowledge you, they just keep doing their own little thing, right? They've sort of learned like I don't, it's not safe to rely on parents for comfort. So I'm just gonna ignore my need for that. So that's avoidant. Then there's also anxious attachment. This looks like in a child, it can look like a child who acts out a lot to get comfort or contact for mom or caregivers. It can look like a baby who's really easily dysregulated, right? So maybe cries a lot. Idea, what they're doing is trying to use behaviors that are gonna get like draw in comfort or contact. But they don't develop that sense of I can soothe myself and rely on my mom when I need to. So it's just kind of this, I need somebody to help me panic. In later life, it's gonna look like big trust issues, like difficulty trusting a partner. I guess that's at the core of all of them. But this one's gonna be very obvious that there's trust issues. It's a very kind of external attachment style. You'll you'll see it. Um, it can look like protest behavior. So that might be starting a fight because you have a need, but you can't express what you want, right? Expecting your partner to mind read and having a really big reaction if they miss the mark. So that's sort of the anxious attachment style. And then there's disorganized is the last one. And that's this like tug of war, sort of between both styles, right? So you'll see a person or a child kind of go back and forth between withdrawing and trying to kind of separate from people and just protect themselves on their own, that independence. And then a big push towards like, wait, come back and help me. And so that one can be really, really tricky for relationships for that child later on in life because it is so chaotic and partners tend to have a hard time understanding what's going on. And it's very hot and cold, back and forth. And so those are that's kind of the big overall maybe umbrella picture of attachment.

SPEAKER_00: 8:37

Yeah, let's pause there because I'm sure if especially if people are new to attachment, they're probably hearing this and like that's a lot. They're probably thinking of maybe themselves now, themselves in their 20s. I know I was like hearing a little bit of like, ooh, I can see where I had that. Uh-huh. I see that one. What's my husband's? Okay. Um, what was going on with my babies and me and early motherhood? You know, I'm so far out of that season. But if we just pause there for a minute and consider like, what's coming up for you? What are you, what are you hearing? How is it feeling? And I'm curious when we're talking about attachment, tell us more about like, is it set in stone? Because I think so many women are going to hear that and have that, like, ah shit. Oh no. Or like, oh, I know where my parents effed up, or where have I gone wrong if they have toddlers or teenagers, or maybe even they're struggling in their romantic life right now, going like, oh wow, I definitely have a rough attachment style. Where does repair come in? Can this change? Tell us more about that.

SPEAKER_01: 9:44

Yeah. So the beautiful thing about attachment is that it is not set in stone, right? So we may have, you know, thinking about myself as an adult, like I was very anxiously attached throughout my, I mean, really forever, but like it showed up in dating. That is not the case anymore for me. I feel very secure. And so what's so cool about attachment is that at any point, if you want to start working on that, you can totally change your attachment style. In fact, there's actually a term for it. It's called earned secure attachment. So that's what research would call like working towards a secure attachment. And then what's really, really cool too is if you have kids and you're noticing or kind of reflecting on your own like experience with your kids and your relationship, and you're thinking, like, ooh, maybe there is some like attachment wounds there or some like misses. Number one, you do not have to be perfect in order to create a secure attachment in your kids. In fact, what's crazy is research actually suggests you only have to get it right about 30% of the time. Maybe I'm giving myself too much credit, but like I think I'd probably do better than that. For sure. Like, I think, I don't know. But like research says if you're hitting it about 30% of the time, and then maybe the other 30% is you like trying to figure it out, and then the other 30% is making repairs, right? That you, your child is likely to develop a secure attachment. And so that should bring a lot of confidence and like calm to moms, right? Like you do not have to be perfect. And the other cool thing about it is repair is such a big part of building trust in a relationship and creating secure attachment. So anytime you you mess up, it's an opportunity for repair, right? Which actually then strengthens your relationship and thus the attachment between you and your child. So I would look at, right, like any any moment where you're like, I did not handle that well with my toddler or my teenager, go back and repair. Like you get to have that conversation with them of like, hey, sorry, I raised my voice with you, or I don't know, snapped at you. I was having a rough day, I should have handled that better. That that kind of closes that loop for that child, right? Of like, okay, mom blew up at me. That felt really icky, but mom came back and talked to me and took accountability for it. So now I know it wasn't my fault and I'm not bad, and that I can trust mom, right? She took accountability, I can trust her. So that strengthens the bond, which is so cool.

SPEAKER_00: 12:29

How important is that part to secure attachment? Because what I'm hearing you saying is, you know, I'm actually thinking through the lens of a lot of the mothers that I work with, they're actually doing a lot of repair work right now with their mothers. And when I say they're doing repair work with their mothers, it's actually not their mothers doing repair work with them. There's no repair work with their mothers because their mothers don't acknowledge the ruptures. There's a lot of codependency, a lot of like emotionally immature mothers. There's a lot of mothers who like they are a vortex of need. And I'm just curious, like, how important is that for us as mothers with our kids to be acknowledging the ruptures when they do happen? Is that like a big part of attachment? Is not just the repair part, because the repair part has to come after like an acknowledgement of the rupture, right?

SPEAKER_01: 13:22

Yeah, totally. Yeah. So repair is huge, right? So, like again, that that the 30% chunks, right? 30% is like making repairs. So we do have to do that active work in order to repair with or in order to strengthen our child's attachment. Now, when we're looking at adult women trying to repair their attachment because of things that happened in their childhood with their parents, we're not always gonna get that repair from our mom, right? And that that's kind of what you're saying. And so we have to work on healing without that. And there's totally a way to do that. So, what we do in situations like that, I mean, we work on accepting. We're not maybe gonna get the parent that we deserved or wanted or needed, right? And not to say that these moms or parents are terrible, but sometimes there's a mismatch in attachment needs, right? So a great mom might just be a little less emotionally in tune than her very emotional child, right? And so it creates over time this like attachment rupture. It's not that it's a terrible mom, but we do have to work on accepting who our parent actually is, right? And kind of coming to terms with that and grieving what we wanted and needed and didn't get.

SPEAKER_02: 14:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 14:48

And if mom is you not going to take accountability, not willing to see the things that she did that cause pain and kind of own up to that and repair, then that's where we spend more time is how do I come to terms with the fact that I'm not gonna get that, but I deserved it? Right. And leaning into the self-compassion that you can feel for yourself and then sort of offering yourself a corrective healing response, right? So you sort of get to almost like split off into parts, right? So you've got your nurturing caretaker self and your hurt self. Maybe it's your wounded child, right? And so you can actually visualize giving the type of nurturing you needed and didn't get to that part of yourself that's still hurt. And that can be an amazing experience towards healing, right? So we can't always base our healing and our growth and our okayness on what other people are willing to do. Sometimes we have to just kind of take charge and figure out a way to provide that to ourselves in the event that they can't or won't.

SPEAKER_02: 15:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 15:56

But when we've got kids in the home, right, they're little and they do depend on us, it is more our job at that point, right? Because they, you know, when they're really little, all they have is us as that security and that safety. And so then it is more of our job to be that external helper for them with attachment.

SPEAKER_00: 16:19

I'm really, I'm glad we slowed it down for that because I do think that there's so many different aspects to attachment that are going to come up for people when they're learning this concept. There's all of these different parts and pieces of them, of their own stuff and then like their kids, and then how their stuff might be impacting their kids' stuff. So when it comes to women, how important is their attachment style when it comes to influencing and, you know, trying to think of the word, building their kids' attachment style or influencing maybe?

SPEAKER_01: 16:55

Yeah. So I think there's two different ways to look at that. There's the woman who or the mom who is completely unaware of her attachment style and patterns and all of that and hurts. And then there's the mom who is aware of what's going on, but is still working on healing and still kind of working through this like, how do I, how do I heal this so that I am healthy for my kids, right? And so if we're looking at the first person who's completely unaware, that is gonna have an effect on your kids. It just is, right? Because you, depending on what your attachment style is or your attachment patterns, like what's probably gonna happen is you're not gonna be totally emotionally available or able to be vulnerable with your kids. And they will pick up on that, right? It requires vulnerability to repair, right? It is hard to say, hey, I'm sorry, I messed up. And if you aren't able to be vulnerable because your attachment patterns say it's not safe to do so, right? Then you're not going to probably engage in that piece of building attachment with your kids when you mess up, and we are all gonna mess up, like that's a guarantee, right? And so we have a lot of these maybe attachment hurts with no repair that start building up over time with our kids. And then they're gonna react to that and probably create their own attachment style, right? And again, even if that's the case, right? Even if you are looking at yourself and you've got teenagers now and you're like, oh my gosh, I was totally like so avoidant when they were kids. I just like, oh my gosh, it's okay because you can still work on that now, right? You can change the pattern now, and that will pay off for your teenage kids hugely. So that's kind of the first, the first maybe scenario. The second scenario is when a again, that mom is aware of some of her patterns, but working on them, she's not perfect, but trying. Research actually shows that if a mom is aware of and working on healing, she is more likely to have kids with a more secure attachment. So simply being aware of and working on it and being able to acknowledge, like, there was that again, and then going through that repair cycle, simply doing that is enough to get your kids on that secure attachment trajectory and be moving yourself obviously towards secure too.

SPEAKER_00: 19:29

And that is, I think that's so important for women to hear because no, nobody says they're trying to be the perfect mom. Like, I've never had a woman in my entire timeline of helping women put on a form like, I need to be the perfect mom. I'm trying to be the perfect mom. But every single one of them is so hard on themselves. Like these moms who are so intentional and they're trying so damn hard. Like they are so intentional, they're so aware, they're doing so much healing work on themselves and for their kids, and they're advocating and they're repairing and they're like trying to figure out all of their stuff so they don't pass it on to their kids. And those moms are still like, I'm not doing enough, I'm not doing good enough. It's hurting, like they're terrified what they're doing to their kids. And I think we have this like fear, anxiety for a lot of mothers who are trying, we're so aware of like all the things that we could do wrong that I think sometimes it creates that anxiousness. And I'm curious that that kind of leads me into I'm curious. I'm like looking at my own early motherhood, and some of my qualities were very like codependent with my daughter. And I was almost overly attached, and I could see how like that actually was creating more of an anxious attachment, not only for her, but for me. And I'm curious if you can speak to that a little bit because I do think there's a lot of women in this generation who were very were wanting to like gentle or attachment parent. And I think in some ways, some of us have gone too far. And I'm like speaking, like, I went so far in toddlerhood where like I be, I didn't have enough self and I didn't have a backbone. And I think in a lot of ways, I was not creating a secure attachment because I was almost like too overly attuned to her. I'm curious if there's a lens of that in attachment.

SPEAKER_01: 21:25

For sure. So that sounds a lot like anxious, like you named it, anxious attachment, right? Where you are just like so in tune with another person, looking for any signs of like discomfort or threat or danger to the relationship, like anything, right? That you'll actually be hyper-vigilant to it and maybe even sort of fabricate, not that you're making stuff up, but right, like read a sign as something negative when it may not have been. Right. And so that creates so much anxiety, and your child will pick up on that, right? Because mom is not calm. And if mom isn't calm and regulated, then something must not be safe.

SPEAKER_02: 22:08

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_01: 22:09

Because we are with our kids, like we get to show them like, I got you, I'm safe. And if I'm if I'm feeling safe, then you can rest assured that you're safe. Right. And so we want to be that calm, grounded, like attuned to the right level parent, but it's so easy, it's so easy to swing into anxiety, right? Because of course we all want to do like the best job ever. Right. We all want to do so much to like create these healthy kids with an awesome childhood. And so we have to sort of like be realistic too, right? About like we're not gonna be perfect, right? And we can't prevent all things from happening. Like sometimes a child going through like a little hardship can be a good thing, right? And creating resilience and strength and coping strategies on their own for how to deal with things. And so we don't want to bubble wrap our kids, right? And so that really then the work is on you, right? To step back and be like, oh my gosh, I am having so much anxiety right now that I'm not like on top of my kid right now with this situation. But I'm gonna deep breathe and take a back seat right now and just let them explore a little bit, right? And work through your own anxiety instead of expecting like closeness with them to fix that for you.

SPEAKER_02: 23:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 23:33

Right. They become your soother rather than you learning to soothe yourself.

SPEAKER_00: 23:37

Yeah, or their emotions are constantly triggering you. And I'm curious when most people come to you for attachment, is it after birth trauma? Is it in toddler season? I'm just so curious because I feel like the majority of moms find me and my work in toddler season. Cause that's where all of a sudden they go, Oh, this is like, that's when their kid starts triggering them. That's when like they start having some like of that anxious attachment. That's when they start having this like, oh, why am I not this cool, calm, collected person that I really thought I was? And you are, you are this badass person. And now all of a sudden this toddler is ruining your day. And you're like, oh shit, they have too much power over me. Or I look at myself and my like I'm going into that teen parenting, and it's very similar to that toddler parenting where all of a sudden I'm going, oh, I've got some deeper shit I'm gonna have to figure out because this kid needs me to have such a deep center of gravity so that I'm not over being overly anxious and too attached or like pulling myself back. Like it's it's taking a lot of intentional action again as a parent. And so I'm curious, like, where do women find you? Is there like a commonality of a season where this comes up?

SPEAKER_01: 24:53

So I see women like across the entire lifespan for this. Yeah, I have I have young women who are dating and are like, I keep dating unavailable people.

SPEAKER_00: 25:06

That they're finding you like early on in life because I'm like, oh my gosh, can we please find the like teens and 20s women and like give them this before motherhood, please and thank you? Like, how many like really need this?

SPEAKER_01: 25:19

Yeah, so I I love my like college students who are like, I need to do something different. This isn't working. Um that's for them for real. Yeah. I mean, think about yes, how much nicer that makes everything else if we kind of heal our attachment stuff before going into marriage and um, but then I have a lot of people also in like early marriage where they're like, Oh my gosh, like it just got real and I can't like break up with this person, right? Like it's a little more like serious now, and so I need to figure out these patterns. I used to work a lot with couples, I don't so much anymore, but attachment shows up in every couple session I've ever had. So and then I have because I do EMDR, which is a trauma therapy, I have quite a few people who come for birth trauma. And with that, I think what is so cool is we we sort of get to work on healing, healing before it affects the bond. Because attach uh birth trauma itself can affect attachment, right? Even if you start from a secure place when you have a trauma like that, it can affect your ability to bond with this baby who's you know has so many needs, you know, newborn stage, it's it's intense. And so if you're not totally able to be as available as possible, despite the sleep and the physical healing and all of that kind of stuff, right? Then we have even more issues with bonding. So I have quite a few that come for that. And then I would say I see an increase with toddlerhood for the same reasons. It's like, you know, when they're a baby, you sort of feel like I'm such a good mom, like it's so I'm doing everything right, it's so great. And then when toddlerhood hits, it's like, oh my gosh, like these tantrums and like I can't, I have a lot of dysregulation or overstimulation, like, oh my gosh, I can't regulate. Um, so I have a lot of people at that time, and then I I think I shared with you before, but I will see people into their like senior years working on attachment stuff. So it's really something that spans the life cycle and will get triggered with different events. So it's not uncommon if you have like attachment stuff for it to peak out when you're dating, and then maybe you do some work and then marriage will flare it up, and then having kids will flare it up, having kids leave the house will flare it up, like different developmental stages for your kids. Also, if you have some attachment trauma at certain ages, sometimes when your kids reach those ages, it can be really triggering for you. You know, so for instance, a lot of parents maybe would have used like cry it out or spankings or something back in the day. And then when your kids are that age, that maybe that was happening for you. It can bring up a lot of dysregulation for you as you're trying to parent this child in a different way. So yeah, it's I wouldn't say I have one population more than the other, but there's definitely a pattern on kind of what causes people to come in.

SPEAKER_00: 28:22

Even just hearing those patterns, I think it gives so much permission because, you know, I I've come to different seasons in my motherhood, and I I remember, I think it was about the third cycle, the third cycle of I would hit this season and I'd all of a sudden be like, why is this so hard? Because there's been seasons where it feels like it's hard because my kid is in a new season and I have to like switch my parenting tactics, where like I swear, like within the span of a week, all of a sudden you're like, none of my old parenting tools are working. Why isn't this working? What happened? Like the way that I'm talking to you, the way that we're disciplining, the way that we're doing boundaries, like all of a sudden it like doesn't work. There's that kind of parenting hard. But there's also been these seasons of parenting where as I'm parenting my kids, I realize, oh, it's triggering something in me. It's triggering a wounding or a response, or there's some pretty big timelines for me where like all of a sudden it's like it hits me in my body and in my emotions before I ever cognitively go, oh shit, that was like a really hard year for me. And it's bringing my stuff up. And something you were talking about earlier, especially when you're talking about like that postpartum period, I think a lot of women are afraid of therapy or trauma healing or EMDR or coaching or whatever it might be because they're so terrified it's gonna make it harder. Like, I think that's a big reason why women don't go. They're like, it's I it's already too hard. I'm already overwhelmed. But something you said earlier, I'm like, no, no, no, this makes it easier. This helps you hold the hard. The hard is already there. You're already experiencing it. And I'd want to give women permission that it's like there's so many powerful practitioners who know how to help you do things in a sequence where like you're not digging stuff up when you don't have the capacity. You're just bringing in support. And like when you're talking about healing these things and helping these things as early as possible, it's like this is only going to make it easier for you, not harder. And there is some discomfort that comes with it. There's, but it sounds like it would make it so much easier, especially if we were more aware of this in those earlier seasons of motherhood.

SPEAKER_01: 30:42

Yeah, for sure.

unknown: 30:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 30:44

And I, you know, I won't lie, like dealing working through trauma, whether it's birth trauma, attachment trauma, you know, whatever, it is difficult. Yeah. Right. It is not fun to unpack that. It's easier or feels easier maybe in the moment to just push it away and ignore it the best you can. But it will find you again, right? Not to sound creepy, but like what you don't heal will show up again in some way. And so it absolutely does make it easier in the long run if we sort of tackle that head on, right? That's not to say you walk into your first therapy session and we're just like diving into like traumatic memories and processing and stuff, right? There's a there's a process of building rapport with a therapist or a coach or whatever. There's a process of making sure you feel safe, right? Like in the relationship with me or whoever you're working with. And there's the whole process too of giving you the tools to safely unpack and safely process, right? So a good therapist is going to have their finger on that pulse the whole time, right? We're never trying to push you past your like window of tolerance. It's working within that to gently expand it, is what we're doing. So yeah, it is scary though. I just want to validate that. Like it's it's hard to do. And it's hard to bring stuff up too, like difficult things from childhood, especially when you're an adult now, right? It's kind of like, I don't want to think about all that stuff and have to sift through it, but it's worth it. And and like I said, the research shows that even just working on it and being aware of it helps your kids.

SPEAKER_02: 32:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 32:30

Right. So you don't have to like put a timeline on, oh, I need to be healed before they're like consciously aware. Like you just be working on it and just being aware, that's enough.

SPEAKER_00: 32:41

Yeah. Well, and even as you were saying that, it's like I can't, I there's been so many times in my life continuously, and you know, I literally do this for work. And me, myself, in my personal life, I'll come back to something and I'm like, this again or this again, but from a new angle. And it's like, wait, I've done this. Like, I have that response in me so many times where I'm like, ugh, I've done this, I've talked about this, I've healed it, I've worked on it. And and then it'll come back. But like when it does come back, it's like, okay, but I have more resource now. I have more maturity now. I have a new vision now. I have a new lease on life, like I have new tools. It's not the same. I'm not spiraling backwards, but like I get it. I get that feeling of like, I don't want to talk about this anymore. I just want to be better. And I think that's why a lot of people are drawn to like the mental cognitive process, because like then we just get to be logical adults and pretend like we know all of our shit and have it all together. But I think so many of us, we have those younger parts show up, especially when we're not expecting it or we think we're so sophisticated and healed. And then you have that stuff come up and it's like, ugh, this again. I don't want to do this. And it's like, okay, but if we do this, we get to take care of it when it's not when it's like old and sticky and has woven its way in more complex and honestly really hard ways to pull apart.

SPEAKER_01: 34:08

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's, I mean, I'm a therapist and I specialize in this, and I still will be like the most immature person with my husband sometimes. Like it's embarrassing, and I don't want my clients to know about this, but like, like if I'm being honest, there are still times when like I have this internal battle in my head of like, Hannah, just say what you need. Like, stomping around is not gonna get you a hug. So say you need a hug, you know what I mean? And I have this little war inside my head of like my little attachment child is so activated right now. And I'm like, this is what I do for a living, you know what I mean? So it's not I hope that doesn't sound discouraging to people of like, well, great, if she can't even be healed, then like what hope do I have? But I think the difference now is I'm aware of that and I have that conversation in my head of like, say what you need.

unknown: 35:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 35:05

And you have a new relationship to it. And I think I think it's encouraging because I think people are starting to realize that our culture has created this pedestalized version of healed. We're like, oh, therapists or pastors or these like very famous people who have these very like pretty, healthy looking lives. I think a lot of people are starting to realize like there is no magical way that we out heal humanity. There is no magical way that we say, like, oh, I'm done now, versus like, no, you're on a constant growing up. Like me at 40 is hopefully gonna be even better and more mature than me now. And like, she's still gonna have some shit to figure out because this is her first time being 40 in the future. And that's not a discouraging thing when you stop thinking that somehow you'll suddenly arrive and have it all together. Because then when you do have those human moments, you're like, oh, okay, I know how to meet myself here. So I'm curious, as we talk about all of this, what are the ways that we do create that secure attachment? What are the ways that we create that in ourselves, that we create it with our kids? What helps build that secure attachment?

SPEAKER_01: 36:21

Yeah, so I think like the biggest thing that we work on is self-compassion. Like, above everything, we have to work on being kind and nurturing to ourselves, right? Because when we can slow down, even if you've just gone on like some tirade, right? And you're like, that was so unhealed of me, right? If we can slow down and be like, whoa, what happened? And talk to ourselves in a way that is like that ideal nurturing parent would talk to that child who just had the tantrum. If we can do that for ourselves, right, we open up so much space because we're validating, like, well, yeah, you were triggered. Like, you know, your toddler just threw applesauce all over the floor. Your other child peed the bed at the same time, your husband's asking, what do you need? Like, of course you melted down in that moment. Like, right. If you can talk to yourself with self-compassion, we validate, we validate that that human experience and we slow it down enough to open space up for then like repairing if we need to, and also kind of thinking through like, wow, what did I need in that moment? Like, I needed a break. I needed to step away and take some breaths and ground. Like I went from zero to 60 and I didn't do anything to pull back. Right. And so we create with the compassion, we create space for reflection, for repair, for the inner nurturing. So that's my number one is how are you talking to yourself? Right. Like when you make a mistake, are you critical, punishing, just marinating in guilt? Like, what are we doing in with our internal voice? And if we can shift that to be more compassionate, right? And I always tell people like, what would you tell your child in that situation? Right? Would you be like, you should have done better, or would you have it like, hey, that was tough. Come here and give them a hug. So that's my number one thing is like we have to work on self-compassion. Obviously, there's a ton of different things you can do in terms of like grounding, right? And regulating, getting your nervous system to kind of calm down so we aren't having so much of the like attachment behaviors show up. So even things as simple as you know, kind of monitoring where you're at throughout the day in terms of regulation, right? Are we getting to like on a one to ten scale? Like once we hit that five, we need to go do some regulation. Yeah, right. For that, if you can, but like I want never get past the five.

SPEAKER_00: 38:48

Like actually paying attention to you and your needs and your regulation is so under like it is so underrated because we're so f and I think we do this unintentionally and it's just like biologically hardwired to be paying attention and attuning to what the kid needs. But we don't have a village anymore who's paying attention to our needs on a daily basis. Even if you have supportive friends or family, the reality is most women, you're home alone parenting your kids. So you have to pay attention to yourself. You have to exist outside of your toddler, your kids, your teen, your partner. You have to be paying attention so that you can meet your regulation if you want any hope at helping them with theirs. Because otherwise, the reality is we'll probably accidentally mirror them or match their mood. I know I do this unintentionally all the time, where like I'm just matching their mood, and all of a sudden I'm like, wait, I'm good. I'm fine, but like I forgot to pay attention to me. And then all of a sudden you walk in the room and now I'm paying so much attention to your emotions. And so I have to like pull myself back into that. Like, where am I? How am I? Where's my breath? Where's my body? Where's my backbone? Let me get a drink.

SPEAKER_01: 40:07

Yes, yes. Go get that drink of cold water, take those deep breaths, right? All of that communicates to your nervous system, like, oh, we're safe. Yeah. Right. When we're in crisis and we're running from tiger, we're not stopping to drink water and take deep breaths, right? But we can communicate to our body, like this isn't urgent.

unknown: 40:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 40:24

That's my like number one thing when my, like I said, teenager feels a lot like toddler. I keep like when they're panicked and on the roller coaster, I keep being in my head and in my body, I'm like, there is no tiger. There is no urgency. This is not like this is not threat level nine. This is like I cut the toast, I cut the crust off of the toast and they're upset. But I need my brain and my body need to know that like this is okay, even if they don't know that this is okay.

SPEAKER_01: 40:55

Yeah, yeah. And it, I mean, again, to validate, like, it is hard to get into the pattern of this, right? It's you know, I've got three kids and it is constant, like there is never downtime, no one naps at the same time, like it's just busy. And so it is really hard to find those moments where I can pull away or just kind of turn inward for a second and check in. And so, you know, just to put that out there, like I recognize that sounds easier than it actually is. But once you get into the practice of it, right, you create that habit and it sort of becomes second nature to be more aware of like where what is my state? Where am I at? And also like, how is how am I communicating? Yeah, how is my state communicating to my kids, right? Because they just like you said, you'll kind of mirror their your kids' moods, they take, they pick up on ours too, right? They're we've got these little mirror neurons in our head that are designed to match other people's states, right? And so they have those too. And so if we're running around all stressed and whatever, their little bodies pick up on that and they don't know how to handle that. And so you'll see more outbursts, crazy behavior, like just wild, crying, all sorts of stuff. And so you're not doing yourself any favors on that level either, if you're not kind of checking in and kind of noticing what am I putting out there right now?

SPEAKER_00: 42:19

Yeah. So when we're working with, let's say our kid is showing some signs that they might not have secure attachment, what are some of those things that we can start doing that help create that secure attachment? You mentioned a couple of things already. I think people are gonna have a lot of questions, especially around, but like tell me what to do. How do I parent? What do I not do? I'm curious your thoughts on like accommodating. So, especially like, do you follow your kids' lead? What are the ways that you start shifting that as a parent?

SPEAKER_01: 42:51

I think it would depend on ages, maybe. Yeah, like, you know, if you have a teenager and they're really wanting some alone time right now, I'm not gonna bust down the door and force them to have connection with me. Like, you know, I will meet their need for space, right? But I'm gonna try to sneak in connection time, like in ways that maybe don't feel so corny to them. Right. Spending quality time can be great for working on building attachment, right? And we want that quality time to be sort of focused on you taking in your kid, right? So you're acknowledging what they like to do, you're acting interested in the things that are important to them, right? You're just communicating like I see you and I appreciate you, and I want to know you more. That feels so good as a kid, and that's pretty simple to do, right? It's just taking a few minutes out of your day to really connect and just dive into your kid's world. So those little conversations for older ones can be good. For younger kids, for babies, physical contact is really healing, especially really little babies, right? Skin-to-skin contact creates that bonding and secure attachment, lots of eye contact, smiles, coups, right? Just engaging in a really positive, loving way with our babies is going to create that attachment for a baby. For toddlers, some of the same stuff, like good eye contact, cuddles, hugs if they like that, playing with them, just communicating you're important. I see you, right? When they melt down or have big emotions, trying to stay as steady as possible, right? So we're not going to shut down their emotions and try to get the tantrum over as quick as possible. It's really communicating like I am steady and safe for you, even when you're falling apart. Like your emotions don't scare me, and I'm here for you. So if we can stay really steady ourselves and sort of be that like anchor for them in those moments, that's really great.

unknown: 44:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 44:53

So I would say those are some just tangible things you can start doing or start focusing on. Therapy, obviously, like I have to put a plug out there for that, because it can be super great just for you to be working internally on your own stuff. So if you're noticing patterns in your kid, start your own work too, right? Maybe you have them in play therapy or something, but do your own work alongside that too, right? Because, you know, again, the research says if you're working on yourself, chances are much higher that you're gonna have that secure attachment pass on to your child. So yeah, I think there's it's always a good time for therapy.

SPEAKER_00: 45:36

Yeah, and well, and they need a secure adult to attach to. I think that, I mean, truly, back when I was a toddler parent, that was my signal of like, I better go figure this shit out because I was like, she does not have a secure parent right now. Like, and don't get me wrong, I was a really good loving mom. And I started witnessing signs in me and my marriage and my toddler where I was going, like, this isn't gonna work. Like, this is this is not setting us up for success. And I was like, I was doing the best I knew how to do. And that's where I went, okay, I need, I need help. I need support. I need someone to come and help me figure out how to do this because it was a lot. It was a lot for my nervous system to have all of these other people be so dysregulated and then realizing, like, oh shit, like I'm also dysregulated. Like I can't force them to do anything. Clearly, I tried that and that didn't work. So it was like, well, I guess I guess I'll get help, I suppose. Which was great. It ended up being the best thing I ever did. I'm curious, you mentioned a lot of quality time. Is there an aspect of quantity that matters in the early stages and the toddlers and the bigger kids? Because I think there's so many moms. I think of like the working moms, either by choice or not by choice, by like, I have to do this to sustain my family. And I think they have a lot of guilt or a lot of shame of they're not spending enough time with their kids. I've known plenty of moms who have the most secure attachment to their kids in that scenario. So I'm curious of that like quantity versus quality, because I think that's something that gets thrown on modern modern moms a lot.

SPEAKER_01: 47:19

Yeah. So quality is always greater than quantity. Always. Right. Like those five minutes of, I don't know, shared conversation and connection between like going off into your different activities is so much, if it's high quality, is so much better than you just like hanging out on your iPad all day, but you're like present with your kids. Right. So quality is always better than quantity. And then we want consistency. Right. So it can't just be like, well, I tried once this month. It's, you know, did you can you come up with a routine where every day there's a checkpoint with the kids, or you know, maybe it's not every day, but but there's some there's a consistent, sort of predictable nature to the connection time. So I would say consistent quality is what we want to focus on. It's not so much quantity. That's so helpful.

SPEAKER_00: 48:15

This is kind of a random share, but I know there was a season where mornings were just the roughest. And it was like getting the kids out of the house was chaos. And I started to have this. I would I would call it mom guilt, but not in the way people normally do, where I was starting to say, like, this doesn't work. I don't like this. Like, this is not how I want my mornings with my kids to look. And part of that, it's not in my choice. Like, I don't get to decide whether my kids are in a good mood when they wake up. I had to decide, like, what are the things that are within my consistent power, my authority, my influence that I can shift. So I started shifting what I could to make the mornings feel different. Music, mood lighting, breakfast, like the mood I was in. And like one small little thing was I parked my car and gave them a hug. Now, are they still sometimes in a bad mood? Yes. But like I've just decided that like I want to be in a good mood with them as much as is within my like capacity to do. And that little quality moment, it made mornings like, oh, I actually feel like I have my kids in the morning, versus like this stressful, awful, like, this isn't working for any of us. We're starting our days off terrible, and just like that small, consistent quality time. Yes. Magnificently like transformed truly, not just for them, but for me. And we still have rough days, but even those rough days, it's got a little bit of something.

SPEAKER_01: 49:50

Sure. Yeah. I mean, you're creating that anchor, right? Of safety, of like love, of positivity. And it doesn't like they can still have their bad days. That's totally fine. And it's not our job to not make our kids have bad days. It's your job to be that safe, consistent, loving, nurturing presence. And that's exactly what you did in that, right? And it and it's a small change, it's not even something that took up tons of time or like cost a bunch of money. It's a really small change that you're putting in consistently. That's that touch point for them of connection. And that's so beautiful. And what a great example for everybody. Yeah, that's cool.

SPEAKER_00: 50:29

I'm curious for you, either in your personal or your professional life right now, like what's an area of attachment that just feels really relevant to you, or like something new, or something like maybe it's maybe it's a hard new, maybe it's a good new. I'm just curious, like what we haven't touched on around attachment that you would want to share or talk about.

SPEAKER_01: 50:54

Yeah, and I think, I mean, I think right now I just had my third baby six months ago. And so we have three kids. We've never had three kids before. And I think balancing, trying, it's not even balancing, it's like an attempt at balancing everybody's needs, including my husband's and our marriage needs. I think that's maybe where I'm just like, wow, this takes a lot of intentional effort now, where we had kind of before our third baby gotten into the flow, you know, we had our two kids and bedtime was like, I don't know, 7:30 or 8. And then we had a little bit of time together. And that's just not the case right now. And so I think that's where I'm focusing on is feeding, feeding the my marriage and kind of that attachment. Because when that's really sturdy, then our house is a lot more sturdy too, right? The teamwork flows better, everybody just feels more connected. And so I think that's where I'm struggling right now, or I guess focusing on. It doesn't feel like a major struggle, it's just kind of like the awareness of like, oh, we have to put effort into this right now. Like we have to carve out some time where we can connect because life is not giving it to us. Yeah. So not so much on my kids or whatever, but between me and my husband, I think. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 52:21

Well, because the kids are so needy. Love it, but wow. Love it, but yeah, yeah. And I think there's those seasons of when you're navigating parenting and marriage, and both of those are really important relationships to you. It is hard to navigate. It is hard to like hold the tension of everybody's needs, and then like, oh yes, also, like the only way I can meet their needs is by meeting my needs. I'm curious with secure attachment. Does friendship come into play? Oh, for sure. Or support. Because I'm thinking, like, there's gonna be so many moms who are like, oh, I don't, my husband doesn't have secure attachment to me, so I don't have another secure attached adult. And yes, I'm attached to my kids, but our kids, especially for me, like, yes, I have an attachment to my kids, but like I can't get most of my needs, like my needs aren't being met there. Like, I have, you know, there's a little bit of relational need met there. But for the most part, it's like, where are we getting those relational needs met when we're in motherhood?

SPEAKER_01: 53:27

Yeah. So if you if you feel like your relate, your marriage or relationship, primary relationship, isn't the most secure, right? That can create a really lonely feeling within motherhood, right? Because you're probably pouring so much into your kids, right? So hard to make everything healthy and great there. And then you're not getting poured into yourself by your marriage or partner. I will say first and foremost, like, go to couples counseling. Like, do some work on that to figure out a way where that can be the place you get filled up, right? Like, do some work on that. But in the process of doing work on that, or if you don't have a partner, you don't have another co-parent, create a community for yourself of women or friends, whoever it is, that can be that for you. My colleague Kelly Sending and I, we host the mom walk collective here in town. And so we we do these like mom walks for any mom with littles to come, and we just go on a walk or listen to some speaker and do some fun activities. But it's such a great place to connect with different moms who are in it too. I also have like a book club. We meet once a month and we talk about the book for 30 seconds and then drink wine and eat food and talk. You know what I mean? And that is just such a good place to feel like filled up, to feel seen, validated, to feel normal, right? Like I will share my parenting fails or whatever, and my girlfriends be like, me too. And so I'm like, okay, cool. I'm not the only one who like made PBJ the entire week for lunch this week, right? Like, or whatever it is. And so yeah, you can create a secure network for yourself if you don't feel like you have that at home or within your relationship.

SPEAKER_00: 55:21

Yeah, and that's and I think even if you do have a secure relationship, I know when my marriage was having a harder time, I think something that helped my marriage become healthier is when I started having secure attachment with females. Because all of a sudden I wasn't trying to look to my husband to be that female, nurturing, feminine, motherly person when like that's just that's just not the relationship we need to have. Like that's that's not who he is, that's not who I need him to be. But I think so often in our culture, the partner or the co-parent is your village. And I think it's impossible to ask that of them either way. Like on me, it's too much to like try to be his whole village too. But when I look at bringing secure attachment to other women in my life, how much that vastly changes, having that regularly scheduled time on my calendar where I'm with other secure women adults who like I can attune to my nervous system. Can I even just like social media right now is like, oh, there's no secure attachment happening here. So it's just like getting in a room of women where it's like, oh, we're okay. It's like all of a sudden my body is like, oh, we're we're okay. We really are gonna be okay. It it changes everything. Yeah, just being in those places.

SPEAKER_01: 56:50

Yep. And that's just a good point, too. Like, you cannot rely on one person to fill every attachment need you have. Yeah. It like in any relationship, it's not gonna be healthy to expect one person to be everything for you. And so, sort of like creating those different places where you get different types of needs met is so important. And then also like your own self-soothing, right? Being able to meet some of your own needs at times and not just rely on somebody else is really important too.

SPEAKER_00: 57:20

And so, kind of it just there's a bunch of different puzzle pieces, yeah. Yeah, but each little puzzle piece, I don't remember when I came up with this, but it's like, you know, the saying of like it's the straw that breaks the camel's back. It's like, well, it's also taking care of the straws that make sure the camel's back doesn't break. Like it doesn't always have to be this huge, massive thing. It can be little thing by little thing that you honor for yourself that you create for your child. Like you can do it in manageable pieces. I I loved this conversation. I'm curious, like, is there anything else you'd want to add? Any like note you'd want to leave on?

SPEAKER_01: 58:01

I mean, just to remember that attachment is something you can work on no matter what. It's never permanent, it is always healable. And you can start with little small steps. You don't have to bite off more than you can chew right off the bat. So I just want to leave that as hope that there's never anything permanent, right? Like we we have the power to work on this at any point. So it's never too late.

SPEAKER_00: 58:28

I love that so much. I think we all need to remember that for ourselves, for our kids, even while we are aware of like, because you know, they're like, oh, you only have so much time. And it's like, well, I mean, hopefully, hopefully, I have a lifetime of being my parent, a parent to these kids. And it'll change. I'm starting to realize that. And like, it'll still be an attachment, hopefully. That's my point. As I keep going too. So, Hannah, this was so beautiful. Thank you so much for being on the podcast.

SPEAKER_01: 59:00

Thank you so much. Yes.

SPEAKER_00: 59:05

Thanks for joining me on today's episode of the Motherhood Mentor podcast. Make sure you have subscribed below so that you see all of the upcoming podcasts that are coming soon. I hope you take today's episode and you take one aha moment, one small tangible piece of work that you can bring into your life to get your hands a little dirty, to get your skin in the game. Don't forget to take up audacious space in your life. If this podcast moved you, if it inspired you, if it encouraged you, please do me a favor and leave a review. Send an episode to a friend. This helps the show gain more traction. It helps us to support more moms, more women. And that's what we're doing here. So I hope you have an awesome day. Take really good care of yourself, and I'll see you next time.