The Motherhood Mentor

Enneagram: Understanding Yourself and Others and What We Get Wrong About People We Love the Most with Katie Whitlock

• Rebecca Dollard: Somatic Mind-Body Life Coach, Enneagram Coach, Speaker, Boundaries Coach, Mindset

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We all have patterns that feel like personality, but are actually protection.

In this powerful conversation, Becca is joined by Enneagram teacher Katie Whitlock for a grounded, compassionate look at how the Enneagram helps us see ourselves and others more clearly.

Far beyond a personality test, the Enneagram reveals the why beneath our habits - the motivation, fear, and longing that quietly run the show. Katie, trained by renowned Enneagram teacher Suzanne Stabile, shares how each type has a “repressed center”  thinking, feeling, or doing that shapes our blind spots and drives our relationships.

Together, they unpack how understanding these inner patterns through enneagram transforms the way we love, lead, and live and how compassion becomes the natural byproduct of self-awareness.

This isn’t about labeling yourself. It’s about remembering who you are beneath the layers you’ve built to stay safe.

In this episode, we explore:
•What the Enneagram really is — and what it isn’t
•How each type represses thinking, feeling, or doing (and why it matters)
•Why your “blind spots” aren’t flaws but invitations
•How to stop expecting people to process life the same way you do
•The most misunderstood Enneagram types (and what’s really happening underneath)
•How the Enneagram can help you communicate more compassionately with your partner, friends, or kids
•Why true self-knowledge always leads to softer relationships

About Katie:

Katie is an Enneagram educator based in Cincinnati, OH. Having trained under the likes of Suzanne Stabile and Joey Schewee, she has used what she has been taught to create workshops and classes for people in her city (and beyond!) to discover themselves through the Enneagram.

Her latest endeavor includes the recent launch of her newest podcast "Early Access". Working together with Jeff Cook & TJ Wilson from Around the Circle, Katie speaks with young people about their Enneagram number and unique life experiences. She brings a fresh perspective to the Enneagram community and hopes to do so for a long time.

Find Katie on Instagram

Katies new podcast: Listen here


New to Enneagram? Take Free Assessment:

 https://coach.yourenneagramcoach.com/rebecca-dollard

If you’re ready to stop living on autopilot and start leading your life with deep presence, I’d love to work with you. Book a free interest call here: Click Here

💌 Want more? Follow me on Instagram @themotherhoodmentor for somatic tools, nervous system support, and real-talk on high-functioning burnout, ambition, healing perfectionism, and motherhood. And also pretty epic meme drops.

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SPEAKER_01:

Welcome to the Motherhood Mentor Podcast. I'm Becca, a somatic healing practitioner and a holistic life coach for moms, and this podcast is for you. You can expect honest conversations and incredible guests that speak to health, healing, and growth in every area of my life. This isn't just strategy for what we do, it's important to community. I believe we can be wildly ambitious while still holding ourselves in our humanity as we love combining deep inner healing with strategic systems and no nonsense talking about what this season is really like. So grab whatever weird health beverage you're currently into and let's get into it. Welcome to today's episode of the Motherhood Mentor Podcast. Today I have a guest I'm really excited to talk to and a topic I'm super excited to talk about. My guest today is Katie Whitlock, and I had the joy of getting interviewed by her on Enneagram, and I had so much fun. And honestly, that podcast has just reignited why I love Enneagram so much. And I actually just I was talking to a group yesterday, and somehow the conversation turned to Enneagram, and it just it is such a powerful tool, but it's I feel like it's so simple. So I would love for you to introduce yourself, Katie, and let us know like who are you and what where did you find Enneagram? Like what brought you to the Enneagram?

SPEAKER_00:

So my mama brought me to the Enneagram. Anyone who knows me has heard this story probably, but it was probably like 2019-ish. I was in college and my mom and I are very close. She put an orange book in my hand. She said, This is really interesting. I think you would really like it. That book was The Road Back to You by Suzanne Stabile. So I read it and I was like, Oh, I'm a two for sure. And my mom, my mom is a two. She was like, Me too. That's great. And so for the next probably like three years, we were the mother-daughter two duo. And then she found Suzanne Stabile's boot camp. So Suzanne does every year, she does like a two and a half day boot camp. You just buy a ticket and you go and sit in a big room and learn from her for two and a half days. And my mom and I went in 2023. And while I was there, I was complaining. Suzanne said something about twos, and I was complaining. I said, Well, I don't do that. I'm a two, but I don't do that. Like, that's too, it was something that was too sweet. Like I felt like was too sticky sweet about twos. And I was like, that's annoying. I don't do that. And my mom looked at me and she was like, I don't think that you're a two. I think that you're something else. And so that night, long story short, that night we went back to the hotel. We figured out that I was a three, which is what I really am. So I've known I was a three since then. But the next year, my mom and I both signed up for Suzanne's cohort program, which, if anyone is interested in doing that, look it up on our website. It's beautiful, it's wonderful. What we did is you apply and they pick 40 people and you go and learn from Suzanne for four times in a year. So about once a quarter, you go down to Dallas and you sit in a room with her again for two and a half days and you learn. So we did that. And then this year I'm doing another one with her daughter, Joey Shuey, who whoa, if any of you ever get a chance to be in a room with Joey, that's also life-changing. But I anyway, long story short, I came home. I have a master's in education. I student taught 10th graders for a year, and then I that ended, and I said I was never gonna step foot in high school ever again because it sucked. And I was not good at it. Which for three, I was like, oh, immediately I'm never doing that again. Yeah, I was stuck in it for a year, and now I'm not stuck, I'm not doing that again. So I kind of moved in and out of restaurants. I have a lot of like fine dining experience as well. But eventually I figured out that what I really want to do is teach Enneagram to people. So now I have my own company. I run my own business in Cincinnati, Ohio, where I'm located. And I use it with businesses to help like corporate teams. But my favorite part is personal stuff. So it's coming on this podcast, it's doing my own podcast. My favorite thing to do ever is I teach public classes. So we have like eight-week, like eight-week series that I'll do, and people just buy a ticket and they come. And it's awesome because that's where you really get to talk to people about things that are very personal that people kind of in on a corporate team are not is not gonna tell you, right? Because they're at work and they're like, I'm not gonna tell you the deepest, darkest parts of my soul right here. Yeah, but in the regular classes, like we do get into that stuff, and it's a lot of fun. So that's where I see the Enneagram really, really, really transforming people is the personal stuff. But yeah, I kind of do everything I can. Yeah, like you said, it's kind of a bug. It gets you. The Enneagram bug gets you.

SPEAKER_01:

I well, I feel like it's just so it's so useful and it's so satisfying because I feel like it answers so many of our deepest questions about ourselves and other people. And yesterday the conversation we were having was specifically about like marriage and how like I truly did not understand how fundamentally different I was from my husband and how different my husband was from me. But understanding that, I was finally able to see him, not through my own biases and perception, but I was able to actually see him for who he was, and it shifted everything and it shifted the way that I saw myself, you know, so self-aware and yet not self-aware. I'm curious if people, if people are new to Enneagram, or even if even if they know Enneagram, what how would you describe Enneagram? Like what is like what is actually the Enneagram?

SPEAKER_00:

So, my little line that I say at the beginning of every class, the Enneagram is a dynamic model of the human personality, and all of those words are important. So, dynamic is important because it allows you to move within your personality type. It is a dynamic model of the human personality. What it does, it details nine different core motivations behind human behavior. And basically, the theory of the Enneagram or like the thesis of the whole thing is that there are nine different ways to experience life and to come at life and to interact with life, right? And depending on what Enneagram number you are, that's telling people which motivation you have, right? So when I say, if you speak Enneagram, if I say I'm a three, you know that I'm telling you which motivation my personality is based off of, which for anyone who doesn't know, threes want to be valuable at all times. They want to be valuable, they want to bring value, they want other people to be valuable. But there are nine, there are nine of those core motivations, right? So when we find your Enneagram number, what we're really doing is we're finding out which motivation your kind of entire personality is built off of. And people don't like that because they feel like it puts them in a box. Yeah. Like, oh, you're a four, and now I know everything about you, right? People really, really, really don't like that. What you learn when you do the Enneagram, though, is that you are already in a box. Whether you believe it or not, you are already in a box. The Enneagram and the dynamic part of it teaches is trying to teach you how to get out of it, right? And I've had so many people who say, you know, I've I've done a lot of other personality models, I've done therapy for years, I've done all these things, and I feel like I didn't get to the bottom of me until I knew the Inneegrant. Like that was that was the only thing that ever really not helped. Because I don't want to say therapy doesn't help, obviously, that's not true. But just to give language to what people are experiencing is it's a beautiful, beautiful tool for that.

SPEAKER_01:

And that language I think is so important. It's important individually because language is so fundamental in healing or changing anything. One of the examples, and I don't remember where I first heard this, but it's like if you go into the doctor and your arm is broken, but you can't move your other arm and your your mouth is duct taped and you have no way to communicate what's going on, how do they know? How do they know what's going on? And you don't, you can't even express that. But even deeper than that, too, I think of our relationships and I think of our even just our relationships to work. If you don't have language, you're gonna be constantly in miscommunication and you're gonna be constantly missing connection with other people because the language I'm speaking is very different than the language my husband speaks, and we might be trying our hardest to communicate, yeah, but we're not speaking each other's language, and until we understood that it was like we were just talking at a wall, and it's like, okay, we could be fabulous communicators, but if I'm communicating in a different language than you, it doesn't matter how good you're exactly communicating. Right.

SPEAKER_00:

What number is your husband? He's an eight. He's an eight. Yeah, yeah, that's pretty different.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, that's it's it's like you're coming, our especially like our conflict styles and stuff like that, like they they tend to clash until we both understood them, until we both understood what's happening in those conflicts and what we're both trying to accomplish. It was like it was a constant battle between two different needs trying to be met in two different ways. I'm curious for you, what what part of the Enneagram after finding your type feels most powerful? So, like, is there something specific you learned about you or like intelligence centers, or there's so many different aspects to these models of Enneagram? I love the paths. Like the paths is one of my favorite parts lately of the Enneagram model. I'm curious for you if you have one.

SPEAKER_00:

So I think that I was raised on this in the Enneagram world. So this is from directly from Suzanne and Joey, and I fully agree with them. I think if you do any work with Enneagram, if you only pick up one thing, you need to know what your repressed center is. And that's you get that from figuring out what stance you're in. So for anyone who doesn't know, the stances in the Ennegram is kind of your social style, it's how you get what you want. Your Ennegram number tells you what you want, and then your stance tells you how you get it, right? So four, five, and nine. The Enneagram numbers four, five, and nine. They are in the withdrawn stance. So depending on what they want, usually they kind of have to withdraw to get it. So if you are in a relationship with one of those numbers, you'll kind of know what I mean. I have a fiance who's a nine. When he needs to figure something out, or he just feels a little overwhelmed, or he needs whatever, you can kind of see him go into himself a little bit, right? Spend some time with himself. One, twos, and sixes. I'll go back. Four, fives, and nines, their repressed center is doing. So four, fives, and nines, I think if you only ever pick up one thing, you need to know that you are repressed and doing. So you do what you want to do, you do what you like to do, you struggle with timelines, you struggle with prioritization, all of those things, right? One, two, and six, my responsive numbers. These numbers are just what it sounds like. They're responsive. So they feel like they struggle with the words. I should do this, I I people would do this, people ought to do this, right? They feel a lot of loyalty and obligation to people or to situations. They might want to do something, but then someone like a two, someone has a bad feeling in front of you, and now that's what we're doing, right? All those numbers are thinking repressed. And when I mean thinking, I don't mean mental energy. All these numbers have a lot of mental energy, but thinking is like logic and its boundaries, is the big one. So one, twos, and sixes really, really struggle with objectively evaluating themselves and their role in people's lives, and evaluating other people and those people's roles in their life, right? And then three, seven, and eight, that's me. We're in the independent stance. So we have pretty egregious self-confidence, and we think that there's very little that could happen to us that would really, really knock us down. Surprise, we're feeling repressed. So the reason I bring that up is knowing that like I am a charismatic person. I can be in front of a room and control it pretty well. I never would have thought I'm feeling repressed, but I am like watching people who are not feeling repressed, the way that they can connect with people and the way that they value connection with other people is not something that I experience. And it is detrimental in a lot of ways. And that I think that's the thing that just every day over and over and over again, I see it. Like a lot of Enneagram is fun and it's theory, and it's really good to know, and it helps you. My repress center, I see every every time I'm interacting with somebody, like all the time, right? And knowing that has helped me be better at my job, have better relationships with people, all these things, right?

SPEAKER_01:

So, in knowing that, once you know that, what did what did that empower you or enable you to do differently? Like, do you feel like how did you develop that emotional? If you're repressed emotionally, how have you developed that or what does that look like in your life?

SPEAKER_00:

So I think I had to watch other people who were not feeling repressed. So I had to look at the people in my life who were not three, sevens, or eights and say, what are they doing with people that I'm not doing? One of the things that they were doing is that they were not trying to solve people's problems. Some of them were, but for maybe different reasons, right? But the big thing was that they could listen to somebody. It sounds so silly because it's so small, but like look that person in the eye and just like nod and say, Oh, that really sucks. Without maybe then they would try to solve the problem. But there was this moment when they talk to people that was just all connection, and I didn't, I wasn't doing that with people. I just immediately was like, Well, have you tried this? What about this? What about like there was no I'm really sorry, that really sounds like it sucks, right? So now, like just the other day, I was teaching a class and I had a woman pull me aside afterwards, and she started by saying, You know, I have a friend who's a three, I need you to, I need to tell you about her because it's really, it's really bothering me. And she told me this whole story, and she was emotional. And I she I kept waiting for her for like the question that she had, but there really was no question. She really just needed me to sit there and nod and listen. And if I did not know I was feeling repressed, I would have sat there and I would have gotten a little impatient because I'm like, what are you asking me? Right? Even as she's crying, I'd be like, Okay, what are we doing? I would have been looking for something to do, I would have been looking for a problem to solve. And what it has taught me is that what I did was just I reached across the table and I held her hand and I said, That really sucks. I'm really sorry. And I handed her a tissue, and that's all she needed. Like, that's all she needed.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

If I had tried to, you know, push her into doing something or whatever I would have done normally, like I would have like I think I would have lost her trust a little bit, you know. And it's just little, it's literally little things like that. It's looking people in the eye, it's grabbing their hand, it's doing these things that I just never did before because I didn't value them or like see the value they could bring to my life, right?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. I'm curious, both personally and professionally. So those who are feelings repressed, do they have a hard time feeling their own feelings? Because I think that's something that I've definitely experienced and witnessed. And as a two, I think this is one of those things. This is one of the reasons why I came to Enneagram, is I started getting these clients, and like, what do you mean you don't have feelings? Yeah, no, literally. Yeah. That was the only emotion. Like anytime we would talk about feelings, and especially like some of what I do is somatic work. So it's literally like feeling your feelings in your body, and she's like, What do you mean? And I'm like, I wish I could repress my feelings a little bit more.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, one of the this is so funny. I'm glad you said feel your feelings because one of the things I've struggled for so two, sixes, and fours are big feelers.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes, we are.

SPEAKER_00:

And I have struggled for so long to be able to explain to people what that felt like. Yeah, because I am not a two, six or four and I do not feel my feelings, right? So I would have such a hard time telling when I'm trying to teach people and they're trying to figure out if they're a two, six or four. Like, I have such a hard time figuring out what to say. And eventually I talk to enough two sixes and fours that what I know to say now is like, do you literally physically feel your feelings? And they're like, oh, duh, of course. And I'm like, yeah, that's never happened to me in my life. Like, I don't know what that means. I'm glad you do, but I don't know what that means, right? Because they're very, very disconnected. Disconnected.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. I love hearing too the evolution because I do think this is one of the most powerful parts of the Enneagram, is that dynamic movement piece is it's not just saying this is how you are, and now you get to use it as an excuse for yourself or blame other people for it. There's a personal responsibility. And I think it's it will offend you. Like when you find your type, like my feelings were hurt. Yeah, oh yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But like I was a little like, oh, I I don't like this. And I joke with people that that's often that's how you know what your type is, is you'll be reading through the types and you'll have this like icky feeling when you read about that type. That that's somewhat a good signal for me. What do you feel like when you're working with people finding their types? What are some of the signals that they're spot on? Like, is it a felt sense? Is it what are some of the like common ways that help them find their type?

SPEAKER_00:

So I would have I'll say two things. My biggest one is what you just said is that when you read it, you feel bad. I'll say. I think different numbers have different levels of bad. Like you say, your feelings got hurt. I was really embarrassed. I was like, I didn't know people have people known this about me the entire time. You know what I mean? Like, have other people been reading this about it's a very three response. But like, have you all really known this about me the entire time? And I'm just the only one who didn't know. There's that there can be like an overwhelming sense of feeling vulnerable, right? As well. So depending on who you are, you might have a different reaction. But some level of this sucks, right? I don't want to keep reading this page. I don't like it. I don't like it, exactly. The other side of that, oh, I just lost my train of thought. The other one I'll say when I am listening to people to see if they're really that type, because a lot of what happens is people see a number. Oh, I remembered. I'll start over. The one thing, the other thing I'll say is that if you are reading something, a description of a number, and it feels so normal and like this is not real. Everybody does this. That that might be an indication of your type. Like that's your type. You just think everybody does that because you do that. Like, I have a lot of sixes, sixes five struggle with typing themselves, anyways. But a lot of sixes don't land on six because they read descriptions of sixes and they say everybody does that. Like, that's this is you know, I have to find something that feels a little more unique to me. So if you're reading something and it kind of feels like does a fish recognize the water it swims in, right? Like, that's also another clue.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, like I was like, what do you mean people other people aren't anticipating my needs? Yes, exactly. Right. Like that that revolution alone changed my 20s, right? Fundamentally changed my 20s. What do you mean my husband isn't built to anticipate and meet my needs? Yes, like that's that's not like an internal drive that other people don't have. Yeah, what do you mean you can just ignore other people's emotions? They come at me like a battering ram. Like, right, yes, that's not something that happens to everyone, but truly, I don't think we were ever taught human psychology and like how humans think and feel and what drives us, and how just fundamentally different all of us uniquely are, and how much dynamic range we can have within our own personal selves.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, you are this is another thing that I think people struggle with when they first start learning the Enneagram. They struggle with the feeling like it puts people in a box, and they struggle with like really, really understanding how deep this is in people, and no, people are people are not the same as you. It's not that your husband like has that hardwiring, he's just ignoring it, and it's like easier for him to ignore, right? He literally is not hardwired to think about people's feelings like you are. Doesn't have it in him. He can train it. I also don't want people to hear like you can't teach yourself things, right? But you, Rebecca, you've never had to teach yourself how to sit in front of somebody and like look them in the eyes and be like, that sucks. I'm sorry, right?

SPEAKER_01:

No, I've had to train myself to sit in front of someone and not feel their feelings and right, exactly.

SPEAKER_00:

Right. Like we're doing opposite things.

SPEAKER_01:

But I love that you brought that because I think that's what's so powerful is that you start understanding where your unique wiring is and where you have weaknesses and where you have strengths. One, so you can amplify those strengths and use it, but also so that you can witness where are my Achilles' heels? Where is the shadow and the dark parts of me that I really could bring some more health to? Like now that I know, for example, I love that I'm married to an eight, and now I can see there is so much that is hardwired in him that I absolutely needed to learn to build as a skill. Like there have been times in my life where I literally would, I remember once I was texting someone, there was like this huge big boundaries conversation happening. And I remember I was like overthinking the shit out of this like conversation. And all of a sudden I was like, what would Jay do? Like, what would my Yeah, no, literally he wouldn't even be worried about it because I'm so worried about what she like how they're gonna perceive this, how they're gonna feel it. I was like, he would literally just say what he needs to say, and then he would leave his phone alone and forget that they had feelings about it and not in a rude way, in a very healthy way. And I have learned so much about healthy boundaries and healthy leadership and like honestly, healthy emotional intelligence from him. Whereas I think when I was more mature and young, I would have called him emotionally immature, not because he was, but because his healthy emotional maturity was very different than my emotional maturity.

SPEAKER_00:

So yes, yes, yeah. We all have different paths. Yeah, the biggest one of the one of the biggest things I've learned from Ennegram is you know, self-help and advice books, they're great. I know some people hate them. I'm a three, I love them, I think they're great. But most there is a I love some of them. There is a reason why, you know, I'll use the number one and nine actually really hit you where like hit you in your heart. You know what I mean? It's because those people are not experiencing the things that you're experiencing. If if they're your same number, they might be able to talk to things in you, very deep in you, without knowing Enneagram, without knowing the language of it. But if they're not your number, they're gonna be telling you things that you don't need to hear, right? Your husband does not need to hear or put up more boundaries. That's your thing to hear. You don't need to hear, you need to care about people's emotions more. He needs to hear that, right? Like it's it's so different. It's so, so different. We all need to pick up different things.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Well, and even in that personal growth world, this is one of like the bones I have to pick with it. Is we're what I have witnessed in clients and even in myself, mostly we are drawn to we are drawn to the things that we already like and are good at. We tend to avoid the things that make us feel uncomfortable, that make us squirm, that make us go, this is bullshit. Don't tell me any more about it. Yeah. What I love about Enneagram is it like draws you in with your like your language and like, oh, it gets me. I'm understood. And then it says, okay, now that you're here, I've got some things to tell you. I've got the thing. There's there's some things you're gonna have to learn that like it's not comfortable, feel good healing. It's not always this personal growth. Oh, this always works just like this. It's like, oh no, no, no, you're gonna have to get skin in the game and realize like there's some stuff that you can do differently that you're gonna have to own. And I think people tend to consciously or unconsciously avoid that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

I have, I think one of the hardest parts for me and what I've seen in other people is there will be, if you get deep enough into the Enneagram, there will be a point where it challenges something about your worldview that you think is just fundamental to being a human being. Like, I I'll give my example and then I'll give my fiance's example. Like, I think it is fundamental, and I assume that everyone wants this, and if they don't, they need to, you know, do something to where they can get back to it. That like everybody wants to be improving, you know, and people want to be better and go forward and do all these things. And to me, that feels good and right and nice, right? That is a way that we should be. And what the Denny Graham has taught me is that that that comes from my personality. I'm not even saying whether it's good or bad or not, but it is not coming from like my soul, it's coming from my threeness. My fiance is a nine. He thinks it is fundamental to our experience as humans to like do your best to understand where someone else is coming from, right? Always, always do your best, listen to people, think about what they're saying, all these things. And it's not whether that's good or bad. My point is he thinks that because he's a nine, right? So to realize to realize that some of what you hold so near and dear as this is part of me. And this is like a bigger theory conversation about the Enneagram anyway, but to realize that it comes because you are this number, right? That feels a little weird for me. That feels uncomfortable, I think, for people to confront. Like it has deep roots in you in ways that you don't know it does, right?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I'm curious. I want to hear like your perspectives on the different types. But I wonder, instead of just going through like the stereotypical, like, here's the nine types, I wonder like if there's a specific thing of like what's most misunderstood, or like what do you fundamentally see that type struggling with or wanting, or even you talked earlier about like their stances. Yeah. So I wonder if we can go through the types, but I I'm not a broad question, but like no, what view and what lens would you want to go through the types with?

SPEAKER_00:

That we could do that. Like, what's miss most most misunderstood about them? Yeah. So interestingly, I don't know when it's coming out, if it'll be out by the time this is out. Jeff Cook and I are doing a series right now where we're talking gender in the Negram and like how like there's some there's some numbers that men listen to and they're like, that's not me, and it is. Right. So, so what's wrong there? And then there's some numbers that women listen to, right? Like eight. Sometimes they're like, I don't want to be that. I don't want to be just angry all the time. That's bad. Like, right?

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

On these things. So I think there are a lot of things there misunderstood about numbers. This is fun. Okay, let's go through them. I'm gonna start at the end. I'm gonna start with nines. I love it. Okay. Hmm, what's most misunderstood about nines? I think if you are not in a relationship with a nine, so like I said, my fiance and my sister are both nines. So I think I think people underestimate how complex nines are and how much they think about things. Because nines seem like pretty simple people, and they are on the surface, like they're easy to get along with, they're good friends, they're so easygoing, they'll agree with anything you say, whatever. But there is this profound sense of like confusion and about who I am and where I am in the world and my purpose here, and nines rely so much on their ability to think things through. There's this whole like objective complex part to nines that I don't think people see unless you are in a relationship with a nine. So I think people underestimate nines. Eights, I think, are the most misunderstood number on the entire Enneagram.

SPEAKER_01:

I would agree.

SPEAKER_00:

I used to be scared of eights, and now they are my favorite number to be around. I love eights. Ever. Ever. Out of anybody, I like being around eights. People react badly to eights because we have a bad because of us, because we have a bad relationship with ourselves, and we say we assume that the eight has expectations of us that we are not meeting, and that is not true. If if it is, they're not mad at you, they just have moved on, right? They're not thinking about you. That's the bit they're eights are not thinking about you in the way you think they are, and people can hear that all they want, but until you really like understand and get and get that and start acting like that around eights, eights are going to continue to not like you very much, right? AIDS like eights like when their power is met with power. So if an eight walks in a room and you feel the natural inclination to shrink down or to like start to prove yourself or like react to them in any way, eights don't they really want to be reactive, the strongest bullshit meter?

SPEAKER_01:

They do, and what's so refreshing is they feel no need to fix your bullshit. No, they'll be like that person's crazy. Yeah, there's literally which is infuriating when you're married to that and I want him to fix my bullshit and his bullshit. Yes, and I'm just like, why won't you be codependent with me? Come on, come on, eights are like, do not try to be codependent with me.

unknown:

It's great.

SPEAKER_00:

I so we one of the things Joey Shuey taught me was half the numbers are judging numbers and half the numbers are dismissing numbers. And all that means is if if something happens, half the numbers will judge you and half the numbers will dismiss you, right? And eights are dismissers, and they don't think about you after that, they're not judging you from afar, they're really not. Yeah, you know, they're really, really not. If you have an eight in your life that you feel like judges you all the time, one, it's probably you. Two, if it's not you, that person probably isn't an eight. They're probably a six or something different, right? They really a true eight does not care about you in the way that you think they do. That's the biggest one. Sevens sevens, I think sevens get the characteristics, sevens get the stereotype of being partygoers and like fun. So, what I would say about sevens is that a sevens definition of fun can be different depending on the seven you ask. One of my very dear friends is a seven, and what he'll say is like laying in bed with his fiance reading a book, and there's like ocean sounds on Alexa or whatever. He's like, that's fun, right? He's not a big partier, not like a big extrovert, not a big extrovert. He likes to be at home, he likes to be in his you know, little man cave playing video games, but he is a seven through and through. So, what fun is can be different. Sevens can be introverts. I see a lot of male sevens thinking that they're nines because they're very laid back in a way that seven descriptions don't normally talk about sevens. So that's what I would say is there's this softness, I think, to some sevens that people don't talk about, and it makes people mistype. I'm kind of thinking about like what makes people mistype in my head. Sixes, I think every I think very recently we've started talking correctly about sixes. I think for a long time people did not talk about sixes correctly. The whole phobic versus counterphobic. People used to say sixes are built off of fear and anxiety. They don't know that, but they are. And it is a sense of I want all the facts, but I can't trust what I think about the facts. I need to go and read the the kind of the subjective view of the room. Like people's emotions make me feel safe, and people's support makes me feel safe versus just like the logic of what's going on here, right? So sixes, I think, mistyped because they have bad descriptions. Sixes. What do I think is misunderstood about sixes? I think people underestimate how confident a six can seem. And they're looking for people who are just afraid and like cowering in the corner all the time as sixes. And most sixes I know come across as pretty confident people, very confident. I would be very confident, very confident, and they would tell you I'm very confident, right?

SPEAKER_01:

I had I would say, I would say, even in like coaching containers, they come off very confident.

SPEAKER_00:

Very yeah, very that's why a lot of them think they're eights.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

I had a I met a coach once and we were talking, and I was I was kind of talking about this, and she's like, Oh, all the six, she's like, I don't think that's true. I think they're those people you're talking about are eights. Like all the sixes I know are really what's the word I'm looking for, like really timid, and like don't speak up. And I'm like, you don't, you are mistyping people. That's if you don't know a six that's really confident, you don't know sixes very well.

SPEAKER_01:

That's not at all my experience with sixes, right? And I think there's a lot of that anxiety, but it doesn't come across as cowering, it's just that they're constantly thinking through every scenario, every angle, every way that they could do things, every like there's that it's like the internal, but it's I don't, yeah, they come across very confident.

SPEAKER_00:

And I don't, I think I know a lot of sixes who don't know that they do that. Yeah. Like it's very, I was talking earlier about the the does a fish recognize the water it swims in. Like sixes out of everybody are the people who say, doesn't everybody do that? No, no, they do not, right? So that's what I would say about sixes. I think people have a very, very shallow view of sixes, and I think we're missing a lot of sixes. Fives, my daddy's a five, so I love fives, and I have a dear friend who's a five. What do I think is misunderstood about fives? I think people don't understand how a five shows you affection. So I think people get in relationships with a five and then they get mad at the five for not being able to meet them emotionally, and it's because they don't know how deep a five is kind of hidden in themselves, and they also don't know what an affection from a five looks like. Affection from a five looks like them giving you knowledge, preparing you for something. Like my dad, I know he cares about me because he sends me stuff about my business all the time. He's like, You should update this, you should update your LinkedIn profile. I talk to this person about your business here. You should go talk to them. Like, but it's giving me information, right? It's all that it's like bolstering me, right? So I think people, I think people expect more from a five than what they can really give you, and that's not really fair. Do you have any fives in your life? Do you know?

SPEAKER_01:

I do, and I've only had one five client. It's it's the only type that I've only had like one.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

And which actually makes a lot of sense because I guess fives would be very drawn to no, they're probably listening to the podcast, but they're not like signing up to go talk to somebody about it. And I do think that like there were the season when that five when I worked with that five, I was more working on like mindset cognitive informational coaching, but I think they're one of the first people who like asked me statistics. I was like, and like timelines. I was like, you don't want to talk about your feelings on the interest call because you want to talk about like how long will this take? How many people have you worked with? I was like, you want data from me? Yeah, yes, they do. It was the first and only person who's ever asked me for like data. But I do have fives in my life, and I feel like they are the people that I wish I could understand deeper and more. And I feel like there's not a lot of time where like we're in a context where that would probably even happen. So, like, I don't think it mean anything, but I do think it's the type on the Enneagram, both personally and professionally, that I want to understand more and deeper, so that I can like see them and know them in a way that I feel like I've I've learned to do with the other types. And I feel like the very nature of a five makes that a little bit harder. Yes.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Fives just so fives struggle with greed, that's their vice or their sin. Every number has a sin, which is a very biblical sounding word. It just means like a thing that keeps you from yourself. Yeah. And fives, we talk about greed because fives hoard themselves. They hoard time, they hoard their privacy, they hoard their feelings about things. And it feels, I won't go too far into it, but it feels like it's because they won't get it back. Yeah. Right? They feel like if they give up their time, they're not going to give it back. And they give up their privacy. It's a limited resource.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

So fives will give you a lot of stuff, but they won't give you themselves in in large quantities. And I feel like people say they get that and then they don't, and then they get mad at like they're five people anyway, you know. Yeah. Which is okay, because we all none of the rest of us really struggle with that. We don't get it. Yeah. But a five meeting you halfway might not look like halfway, but it's up to you to realize it is half. They had to come from so far inside of themselves that it is halfway. Right? Is what I would say.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Fours. I love fours. I love a healthy four.

SPEAKER_01:

I mean, let's be honest, all types that they're unhealthy, pretty great.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, it kind of suck.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. They kind of suck. Like, I think people romanticize certain types, and I'm like, oh, have you ever had like a parent or a sibling or a spouse who's an unhealthy? Like twos, for example, people are like, oh, twos are so great. And I was like, have you ever known an unhealthy two? No. We are yes.

SPEAKER_00:

The the biggest, like this is a crazy way to say it, but the biggest like antagonist in my life right now, not really about me, but just that I know and I know her life and I know what's going on. She's an unhealthy too. Yeah. And she, it's drama, y'all. It's bad. It's it's drama. It gets I say, I think why people do that. I think some numbers when they're unhealthy, they get all over everybody. And some numbers when they're unhealthy, they don't. Like a nine, an unhealthy nine is detrimental to the nine. And it's maybe detrimental if that nine is your parent who's supposed to be taking care of you, right? But just like your friend, you might not notice your nine friend like imploding, you know. You will notice your one friend imploding or your eight friend, right? There will be your your four, right? Like there will be signs.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

So, but fours, what I say. One, I think they make some of the best podcast guests because you can just immediately ask them any question and they will answer it truthfully. So I think they're awesome. Fours, I think I'm gonna speak for my personal experience with a lot of fours. Yeah, what I have learned with fours sometimes, and I don't I don't know if fours know they do this. Sometimes they'll say something because fours are so focused on what's different and they want to they want to plumb the depths of things, they will say things in a tone and a way that no one else would say it. And it sounds like they're trying to pick a fight with you, right? Or they're or they're trying to point out something about you that's like pointed, they just really want to talk about it. And so I and I see other people reacting badly to that and assuming that the four is trying to like hurt your feelings or get one over on you, and they just want to talk. And so what I have learned is that when fours, this is more of an unhealthy four thing, but when when someone who's kind of an unhealthy four talks to me, I just react to what they've said, not how they've said it, you know, and then I end up having lovely conversations with these people because they're really good conversationalists and want to talk about things. I think also people think fours are dramatic and they're not in my head. The definition dramatic is like making stuff up, right? That's just what I'll say. The definition I'm going off of is, and fours are not making anything up. No, they just are honest about how sad they are, right? Or about how happy they are. The rest of us also get that sad, we just don't really admit.

SPEAKER_01:

I think they're the most in their feelings, in my experience.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_01:

Like the most in their, like, I mean, I think sadness in Inside Out. Have you seen Inside Out? Like she like she is the emotion. I think fours, what I've witnessed is like they have such a hard time knowing that they are not their emotions and like having a separateness. And I like I agree. I don't I don't think they're dramatic. I think if anything, people underestimate how much energy and capacity and skill and maturity a healthy four takes to not be just constantly drowned by their own emotions. Yes, yes, and other people's emotions, but I think mostly their own emotions.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I agree for sure. I think people, I guess what I'm hearing in both this four and five is like you have no idea what these people are going through. Yeah, I mean, you have no idea, and I only mean that neutrally, like you don't know, you don't know how deep it goes in these people, yeah. And so what looks like to you them not trying very hard might be them trying really hard, right? You just fives are really, really deep in their head, and fours are really, really deep in their heart. So it takes a lot to even be able to poke your eyes out, you know, of the surface of those things. Yeah. Threes. Well, I can talk about this one. I think what people don't don't understand about threes is that we are not trying to lie to you. We don't think one, we don't think we're lying about who we are. That's the big thing, actually. We don't think we're lying. You look at us and you see someone who's pretty obviously pretending to be a certain way, or maybe that's because I know Enneagram now, but someone who's like only presenting their good stuff, someone who's only focusing on the things they're good at, only focusing on how they can bring value. And we we don't know that we're ignoring all the other parts of us. We don't know that there are other parts of us. We the sin for a three is self-deceit. People say deceit and say vanity. I say self-deceit because I it's we're deceiving ourselves.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I agree, and I I don't know if I've met threes who I would say, oh, they're vain people at all. No, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Because part of being a three is like if you if you're seen as vain, that's not good. You know what I mean? Like, and I don't want to be seen as someone who's vain. I am a little vain, but I don't want to be I'm like being subtle about it, you know. Hopefully. I don't think it's always don't you?

SPEAKER_01:

I just I love when we say our inside thoughts out loud. Yeah, because it's yes, it's so refreshing. It's so refreshing, like, because as a two, like I can really resonate with that of like I am, but you know I am, but I hope that you like I hope that I'm not giving you the impression that I right, right?

SPEAKER_00:

Like a lot of people, I think they they're confused when threes because there actually are a lot of threes who don't want to be the person on stage, right? They don't want to be the person with the light on them, but they want to be still seen as valuable, like they don't want to be seen as the person who wants to be on the stage, you know. I do like being on the stage, but I don't want you all to see to like see me asking to be up there, like that's embarrassing too. You know what I mean? It's all about being smooth and being charismatic and like I just am, you know, I didn't ask to be this way, I just am, you know, like it's so stupid, but there is this kind of meta monitoring of your ego, right? I am this way, but how do I make myself how do I make myself get rewarded without asking for a reward? Right. Yeah, I'm curious don't know that they're doing that.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I'm curious about mistyping for threes because I think a lot of highly ambitious and highly motivated people mistype as a three because that I think they identify with that aspect of a three. I wonder, like what would you add to that?

SPEAKER_00:

I think what I would say is that's that's the when we're talking about behavior of a number instead of the motivation of a number. So one, what I would say is have you been high achieving your entire life? Probably the answer to that for a lot of these women is yes, right? Three is not about being high achieving. A lot of numbers are high achieving. Eights are high achieving, ones, sixes, a lot of twos are high achieving. Sevens find themselves the boss of things sometimes, right? There are a lot of numbers that are very high achieving. What threes are doing that other other numbers are not doing is that they are disconnecting from parts of themselves. They are performing in front of people.

SPEAKER_01:

They are like their life is a performance, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00:

Your life is a it's not just when you're at work or when you're achieving. Your life is when you're with your friends, your life is a performance, right? It takes work for you to be able to feel comfortable in front of people. And not because, you know, like a six might not feel comfortable in front of people because they don't trust them yet. It's not that, it's believing that people will still like you when you are not these things.

SPEAKER_01:

When you're not performing.

SPEAKER_00:

When you are not performing. If I took away your degree, if I took away your job, if I took away how funny you are, if I took away your ability to lead a group, if I took all those things away, do you think your people would still like you? And if your, I mean, probably your logical answer is yes, but if your emotional, your heart answer is I would be afraid that they wouldn't, that that might mean that you're a three. You know? Yeah. And it's everywhere. It's at work, it's in parenting, it's with your friends, it's everywhere, everywhere. Right? Yeah. Okay, should we do twos? I want you to do two. It's so hard. You do twos. What do you think people misunderstand about twos?

SPEAKER_01:

I think people misunderstand just how I know a lot of twos, so that's it's like a tender one for me. I don't think they understand how instinctual and responsive it is for us to feel other people's feelings as if it's our own. And to fundamentally be more aware of what other people want and need than we are of like what our own sense is. Like it is it feels physiologically like uncomfortable and almost impossible for twos to not consider everyone else's needs as more important, everyone else's feelings and emotional experience, and it takes it takes a lot of work for them to exist as a self.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Draw the difference between that and nine for me because that sounds a little like nine, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

I think for twos is so different than nines. It's it's not that we're trying to peacekeep. We're not like aware of how do I just I've never had to use the language of a nine and a two in this sense of for twos, it feels like I have to do something about it. I have to take care of it, I have to fix it, versus I need to pretend it doesn't exist or not have it be a problem. It's like this is a problem that is like tangibly there. I'm curious what you would say about twos.

SPEAKER_00:

That's that's actually great. I think I see a lot of especially women struggle between nine and two. And what I would say is if you feel like one of the options at hand is to just ignore the problem, then that's you're probably a nine.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

And if you don't feel like the problem, yeah. Ignore ignoring the problem is one of the hardest things for me. Yeah, that's a good one. That's a really good distinction. Really, I haven't come up with that. That's a good one, Katie. Thank you for that one because I feel like I now I have such a better language because twos and nines do mistype a lot. And it's especially women tend to often mistype as twos and nines. But yeah, I'm thinking of myself and my like so many of the twos that I know and love. It is one of the hardest things for us to get our heads out of the asses of the people that we love. Like the closer they are to us, the more we love them, the more that we like them, the more we feel responsible or it's our job to take care of them. I have to physiologically like remind myself hold, hold like last night, like my daughter, last night, my daughter was struggling, and I kept trying to fix it and I kept trying to like make it better. And then all of a sudden I was like, There's nothing for you to do. And that was so impossibly hard for me to just not do anything. Yeah, like just ignoring it wasn't an option, but like I did, I had to do something, anyways. But like over-asserting myself is for sure the most natural thing to me, and like actually pulling back my energy is excruciating and like asking for what I need or telling people my preferences can sometimes feel so silly, but like it actually takes a lot of energy for me to tell you when you did something that hurt my feelings, or you did something that hurt me, especially when it cost me something.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I think that's a great point. I'm thinking of my mama now, and I'll say one more thing. I think people I did not get about her. Okay. So she did Suzanne's cohort with me. So we were in the same room learning about twos and threes and all the numbers, right? And I think this is part, this is part of thinking repression. It's it's not being able, it's thinking repression and it's a two. It's not being able to conceptualize yourself, right? So we would start talking about unhealthy twos. My mother hasn't has she's really been pretty healthy, at least as long as I have known her as an adult. I don't know what she was like when she was 16, 20, 25. But as long as I have had the brain to understand her as a whole person, she's been a very healthy woman, right? And so we'll start talking about unhealthy twos, and she'll look over at me and she'll be like, Do you think I do that? And for a while, I was just like, No, like, of course, of course not. But then she kept asking it to things that like had would never, she's never done. She's never acted that way, right? So one time I was like, Mom, do you are you just asking me that to like to ask, or do you really not know that you are not the person that they're talking about? She's like, No, I don't know. Like, maybe I maybe I've done that, maybe I've hurt your feelings like that, and I don't know. Like, maybe I've been that horrible and ugly to people and I just didn't know. And I was like, What are you talking? What are you talking about? Right? It's that, it's it's that level of not knowing who you are and not being so worried about your impact on people that you like lose the ability to be objective about it. How deep that goes, I think, in twos, is something I didn't even realize until you know, I was faced with it with my mom. So now I just say no, you've never done that.

SPEAKER_01:

I mean, people can't see me, but I am like aggressively nodding so big of and the way that you just said it. I mean, I've been in Enneagram for a long time and I've been in coaching, and I've never the language you just gave me of my own experience and what I witnessed in my in like the women I know and work with, it it like it almost makes me want to cry. Like yeah, like it's such a it's such a hard part that I really don't think is understood about twos.

SPEAKER_00:

I think so too. Yeah, because I think twos don't they don't know that I mean maybe you can talk to this better. They don't know that they do it, and they also don't like twos don't talk about themselves because they feel like that's selfish. Yeah. So you have to really, really, really know a two, and the two really, really has to trust you, and you have to say everything about yourself before the two will ever get to say will ever want to say anything about themselves, right? So it just takes. I mean, speaking of fives, actually, two fives and eights are kind of all like this, but they don't give you much, actually, which sounds weird to say about a two because twos are giving you all the time, but not about themselves, not about themselves, yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, and what you've said, I I think as soon as you say it, twos will recognize it for the most part, but it's not something that they would self-recognize because they are so giving. And one of the things I think is interesting that I'm just now I'm just now finding the language for. I think for so many twos, we don't trust what we know of ourselves until you know it and see it in us. But like for me, it's been a gift to be in relationship to other twos because they see things in me and and they're and they're paying attention and they're saying it of like, oh, this is something about you or that I know about you. But I didn't believe it until I got it from them, not from myself, not knowing it in myself. It was, oh, once you know it in me, now I know it in me. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

It's one of the that's one of the things about the Ennegram. Like, if that's what you need to know things about yourself, great. Go get yourself a two-friend. You know what I mean? You're probably never gonna change. The Innegram teaches you there is some core stuff about you that you're gonna be struggling with until the day you die, right? Yeah, you might get better at it. Hopefully we do, but it's gonna be hard for you until the day you die, right? And if the easy way around that is to call your two friend and say, I need you to tell me nice things about myself, that's fine. You know what I mean? That's great.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I five little ways. I have this thing when I'm in deep shame is I check in on the people who like I know know me, and like I need. You to remind me who I am because like I'm forgetting. Yeah. Because at my lowest of lows, I think the worst of myself, right? Internally, you probably wouldn't know it in the way I walk around the world. Right. But like, even as a very healthy two, I have those moments.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. So ones.

SPEAKER_00:

I think one of the things that you do not get about ones from the description of them is I know a lot of ones who are really funny.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Which seems like such a simple funny. But I think that gets lost. So funny. Like they have a line to seven for a reason. Right. But ones are funny and they are responsive in a way that I don't think you know until you are close to one. I think so. Jeff Cook is a one. And he's the first one. I don't really have many other ones in my life. My cousin's a one. But we don't we don't live near each other. Blah blah blah. So and now I work with Jeff almost daily. And what I have learned from being close to a one that I don't think you would know if you were just watching a one from afar, ones really look like they have all their stuff together all the time. Jeff does have his stuff together. But what I don't think the rest of us see is this constant turmoil of like, I thought this thing was going to be good and now the situation has changed and now I need to fix it. And that happens over and over and over and over again, right? I had a plan and now the situation's changed and now I need to change my plan. I had a plan and then the situation changed and now I need to change my plan. Like ones, I think, look so stoic and put together, and they're in the body triad, they deal with anger, right? Sometimes their anger comes out on people, and people assume that they just have this very clear vision of where they're going and what they're doing, and we're just none of us are just living up to it now. They're mad at us. And what I know now, being close to a one, is that they often struggle with where they're going to, you know, they are not as put together, but I I hope not in a bad way, like kind of in a freeing way. You know, I ones are not as rigid as I think people assume they are when they see them from afar.

SPEAKER_01:

I d I I agree. And I also think sometimes with ones the rid I think there's so much control that other people will feel as controlling, but to a one it feels like love. Yeah. Yeah. So it it to certain types they don't necessarily it's like such a different language to them that I don't understand that. Like sometimes I think ones can be really blunt, but I think it's such a loving thing for them. Of like it's a helpfulness in them so often. Both to others, but I think also in themselves. Like so many ones with like their inner critic, or you know, some people will call them the perfectionists, but I think just the term perfectionist is misunderstood in our culture. Yeah, I agree. I I've never met a one or a perfectionist who ever uses the word perfect. Never once. Yeah. Never once. It's just that they are highly aware of the gap. And that's such a beautiful, good quality to have. That's that's very exhausting to live with. Yeah.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

I guess what I I get like rigidity is good sometimes, but I guess I would call it when we look at them from afar, it can sometimes be like a cold rigidity.

SPEAKER_01:

And I like what you said, like maybe it is a rigidity, but it is war, it is warm, which is a weird word to put right next to rigid, you know, but it's it's like a loving, strict parent who like understands that there needs to be order and there needs to be moral, there needs to be standards and expectations.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

And I do think, like, especially really healthy ones, there's such a warmness to that. But I think other people, not everyone's experienced that as a healthy quality.

SPEAKER_00:

Right, right.

SPEAKER_01:

If that makes sense, like it's a misunderstood quality. I think the nature of it is really, really good, but I think other types can tend to respond badly, even when it truly is a healthy aspect, because I think a lot of us resist that other people calling us into things, yeah, or calling.

SPEAKER_00:

I think ones have like a humanity that I think people don't see. Like what I'm thinking of is I always admire Jeff. Doesn't think that he has this skill, but he absolutely does. He can come up with the way he says things on podcasts and the questions he asks are so good and so put together. And what I know now is that that took him, you know, a week to put together because he was so worried about it sounding right, right? So thoughtful, like yes, yeah, thoughtful. You know what I mean? It's it it's and he felt like he didn't have it right. So he went back and he read a book and then he came back to it. And it's all because like, yeah, it wants to be good, but there's also this sense in once like they want it to be good for you too, you know. Like he wants it to reach people and he wants people to connect with it, he wants to create something good for everybody, for himself and for everybody, right?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I feel like what you just said, I feel like it, I hope it like hugs all of the ones. Yeah, I hope so.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, we do, we do, and you don't think you're good at things, but you are, yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

They're so good at things. I think that's so interesting with each type is I feel like the things that we're best at and the things that we're worst at, we can't even understand them because it's so fundamental to us. It's just like you said, like you're the fish swimming in water. Right. How do you possibly describe what it's like?

SPEAKER_00:

Right.

SPEAKER_01:

This is so I feel like I could just listen to you talk about Enneagram all day. I'm so excited for your podcast. I know incredible. I feel like you are just like, I have what I call it my like Enneagram Bible. It's like all of my type worksheets. Yeah, like every different I love that book so much. I feel like you're that book. Like there's so many times where someone will ask me something and like, I don't know, let me go get my book because there's so much. You are such a wealth of knowledge, but I it's not just head knowledge, there is so much heart and feeling and emotion. And I like I just want to like commend you on that because I feel like you bring such a beautiful lens to Enneagram that I feel like I've never even experienced, and I've done a lot of Enneagram work, and all of a sudden, like, oh, like Enneagram according to Katie is like one of my favorite Enneagrams. Like thank you. I really love it. You're it's it's really cool what you're doing. I'm curious, like as we wrap up, do you have a favorite Enneagram book? They're like you just like love.

SPEAKER_00:

I think can I give two?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, oh yeah, I'm a rule breaker.

SPEAKER_00:

So yeah, yeah. So Riso and Hudson are like the guys in the Enneagram, right? Like when you ever ever if ever you decide to really, really get, you know, anybody who's listening, really, really get into the Ennegram, like they're the OG people who started writing about it in the 80s, right? Some of the OG people. Look at Riso and Hudson, R-I-S-O-Hudson, H U D S O N. It's two different people. They have two books. Their big one is personality types, and they it is about that thick, and it's all it talks about is like one through nine, basically. Yeah, so there's a whole section on each number, and they talk about them in a depth that I don't think really gets matched many other places.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

I love that one. They also have another one called The Wisdom of the Enneagram, which goes a little, it talks about the nine, one through nine again, but it also adds some more theory on top of it. So if you're kind of looking for a 201, that's it. That's I really like that one as well. Those are on my I have an Enneagram shelf as well. And those are like the the two that I always pull out if I need to remember something. Those are the two that I go to first, usually. So it's like a text, it feels like textbook-y to me. Like all my other books I really like and they talk about things very well. But if I just need to look something up, like I know that those two books will have it probably. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

So that's awesome. Is there anything we missed about Enneagram that you're like, ah, she didn't ask me this?

SPEAKER_00:

I don't think so. What I would say, if anyone's interested, try to find a room that you can sit in. It's gonna be hard. There's a lot of podcasts, there's a lot of books to read. What I tell people, half of anything you're ever gonna know about the Enneagram is gonna come from a teacher. So it's gonna come from, you know, a podcast like this, a book you're gonna read, whatever. The other half that you cannot pick up just from listening to people, no matter how much you try, my lovely fives, is you have to be in a room and you have to be listening to other people talk, A, about their number, but you also have to be paying attention to how they talk, right? There is a cadence that like a lot of sevens carry in their voice, right? There's a way that sixes give context to everything. Like that's if you really, really want to pick it up, you need to go find a room where people are gathering and talking any gram. And that's where you really, really start to know it, right?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I agree.

SPEAKER_00:

Or do a book club with your friends, like whatever.

SPEAKER_01:

I think what's powerful with that too, especially when we're looking at relationships, is you start to meet other people who you don't already have a fixed idea about. Especially when you look at like relationships, like your parents or your yourself. Yeah, you get in a room with someone else who is that type, and you are able to see yourself and someone else through a new light. Like I talked a little bit about like being in relationship to some like Enneagram eight women, all of a sudden I was like, I fundamentally understand my husband and like the other eights in my life in a new way because I was in their presence. And it's not that they're the same people, they're very different. No, they're not, yeah. Eight and like I understood facets of them that were like with my husband, I was too afraid of certain things, or I had it too locked in and fixed in of who he was, and all of a sudden I went, I've misunderstood you this whole time. Yeah, and it wasn't your fault, it was my fault. Like I wasn't seeing you. And I think when you get in a room talking about Enneagram and working through it, you start to hear and see facets about humans that are so beautiful and so heartbreaking. And I think if all of us could have our heartbreak a little bit, yeah, for what it's like to be you and also what it's like to be someone else, I think it really does change the way that you relate to other people professionally, personally, in every arena of life.

SPEAKER_00:

I agree. I tell people I get angry much less often now. Oh, yeah. I get frustrated, I get frustrated less. You know what I mean? Or if I get frustrated, it's gone pretty quickly because I'm like, well, I know why they're doing that, right?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I get for me, even when there is conflict, I feel like I know how to face it.

unknown:

Right.

SPEAKER_01:

It teaches us different things. See, I'm great at just pretending there is no conflict. Bye. This was so great. I love this podcast so so much. Thank you so much for being here. Of course.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes, go on Instagram, type in nine, the number nine, fold anygram. Ninefold anygram. That's my Instagram. That's where I do.

SPEAKER_01:

We'll have the link below too.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, most of my stuff. I have a website, but if you follow me on Instagram, you'll keep up with stuff.

SPEAKER_01:

So yeah, and when does your podcast start coming out?

SPEAKER_00:

Probably October. I think we're shooting for early October.

SPEAKER_01:

So we're pretty close. And once that's live, I'll put link, we'll put the link in the bio of this one.

SPEAKER_00:

It's called early access. It's gonna be an e gram for not four, but kind of I talk to people under 35. Right. The biggest thing is that I'm under 35 and kind of talking to people about this kind of stage of life, no matter how old they might actually be at the moment, right?

SPEAKER_01:

So I love that. It's fun, it's so great. It's gonna be great. Well, thank you so much, Katie. Of course, absolutely. Thank you. Thanks for joining me on today's episode of the Motherhood Mentor Podcast. Make sure you have subscribed below so that you see all of the upcoming podcasts that are coming soon. I hope you take today's episode and you take one aha moment, one small tangible piece of work that you can bring into your life to get your hands a little dirty, to get your skin in the game. Don't forget to take up audacious space in your life. If this podcast moved you, if it inspired you, if it encouraged you, please do me a favor and leave a review. Send an episode to a friend. This helps the show gain more traction. It helps us to support more moms, more women. And that's what we're doing here. So I hope you have an awesome day. Take really good care of yourself, and I'll see you next time.

Contributor

Katie Whitlock

Guest

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