The Real Reason 'Just Communicate' Doesn't Work with Michelle McDonald: Enneagram Instincts and Your Nervous System

What if the thing sabotaging your communication isn't your words, but your body's stuck survival strategy just trying to keep you safe? We go deep with Enneagram coach Michelle McDonald to explore the instinct layer of enneagram-self-preservation, social, and one-to-one—and how these fast, automatic behavior patterns quietly steer your relationships, leadership, and daily choices. This is personal development that bridges the gap between insight and embodied change.

Instead of stopping at personality types, we map motivation to somatic awareness so you can notice dysregulation, pause, and choose a different path in the moments that matter. This is self-awareness tools meets nervous system regulation for women who've done the therapy and read the books but still get caught in the same loops.

Michelle shares how the Enneagram outperforms other typologies as a practical growth tool by revealing protective patterns and giving each Enneagram type a unique, actionable route to change. We break down the Enneagram instincts and Enneagram subtypes with vivid anchors—a vigilant rabbit (self-preservation), a cohesive herd (social), and bonded macaws (one-to-one)—and translate them into real life for conscious leadership and relationship repair.

You'll hear: the partner who withdraws to protect autonomy (classic pursue-withdraw pattern), the parent who pursues repair to protect belonging (attachment styles in action), the business owner who craves intensity to feel alive and effective. This is conflict resolution through the lens of fight flight freeze, not just better communication scripts.

We dig into why "just communicate" fails when you're dysregulated, how to spot your instinct's telltale moves through body-based healing cues, and what a simple pause can do to bring your body, head, and heart back online. This is emotional intelligence that respects your window of tolerance—self-regulation for the over-functioning woman who leads at work and home.

This conversation is rich with marriage communication examples, team dynamics insights, and grounded takeaways for breaking cycles: identify your lead instinct, strengthen the neglected one, and right-size the one that overdrives your system. You'll leave with a clear framework to navigate conflict in marriage more skillfully, set cleaner boundaries with somatic awareness, and feel more like yourself—present, resourced, and able to choose. This is inner work that translates to outer results.

If you've mastered the concepts but still feel the pursue-withdraw cycle in your relationship, if you lead teams but struggle with authentic leadership in conflict, if you're craving conscious awareness that lands in your body—this is your bridge from thought patterns to embodied change. This is mindfulness practice meets Enneagram subtypes, polyvagal theory meets real-life relationships.

Find Michelle:

Instagram @ origins_enneagram_consulting

Website

If you’re ready to stop living on autopilot and start leading your life with deep presence, I’d love to work with you. Book a free interest call here: Click Here

💌 Want more? Follow me on Instagram @themotherhoodmentor for somatic tools, nervous system support, and real-talk on high-functioning burnout, ambition, healing perfectionism, and motherhood. And also pretty epic meme drops.

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Chapters

• 0:00 Welcome & Enneagram Framing
• 1:30 Meet Michelle & Her Path To Enneagram
• 3:50 Why Enneagram Beats Other Typologies
• 7:20 From Self-Awareness To Real Growth
• 10:40 Patterns, Protection & Relationship Dynamics
• 14:30 Introducing Instincts: Self, Social, One-To-One
• 18:10 Body-Based Intelligence & Western Disconnection
• 22:00 Instincts Explained With Animal Metaphors
• 26:40 Do Instincts Change? Balancing The Trio
• 30:20 Marriage Case Study: Social vs Self-Pres
• 35:10 Conflict Somatics: Move Toward, Against, Away
• 39:30 What We Prioritize, What We Miss
• 43:20 Spotting Instincts In The Wild
• 47:10 How To Start: Pause, Notice, Name
• 51:00 Centers Online: Body, Head, Heart
• 54:00 Agency, Choice & Mature Patterns
• 57:00 Where To Find Michelle & Closing CTAs

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:02

Welcome to the Motherhood Mentor Podcast. I'm Becca, a somatic healing practitioner, and a holistic life coach for moms, and this podcast is for you. You can expect honest conversations and incredible guests that speak to health, healing, and growth in every area of our life. This isn't your strategy for what we do. It's important. I believe we can be wildly ambitious while still holding all of ourselves and our humidity as. I love combining deep inner healing with strategic systems and no nonsense talk about what this season is really like. So grab whatever weird health beverage you're currently into and let's get into it. Welcome to today's episode of the Motherhood Mentor podcast. Today we have another really incredible Enneagram podcast for us. And I love talking all things Enneagram. And I spoke actually to a group Tuesday teaching them about Enneagram. And as I was talking to them after, I think the best way to learn Enneagram is through conversation, through connection, through relationship with a coach, with podcasts. Reading a book is really great, but it's like all information is fine. Like you can read about your type, but when you start getting into like story and like people sharing their experiences, I think that's when you really, really get it. So I'm really excited for my guest today. My guest is Michelle McDonald. Michelle, will you introduce yourself?

SPEAKER_01: 1:29

Yes. Hi, thank you for having me. I'm very excited to be here. I can talk Enneagram all day long. Yeah, love it. And I know when I first met you, and I think that was like one of the first connections we had that we both were, you know, obsessed in into Enneagram. I'm like, oh, she's my people. You know, I I call myself a self-development or self-awareness nerd. And so I love like any of the systems, but Enneagram has just been the one that for me is has been so pivotal. And so um that you know, so that I'm working with Enneagram now as a coach and consultant for groups and for individuals for people who might who know their type or who want to find out their type. And then what do I do with that? You know, like what do we do? There's a lot of information there. So what do we do with that? And how do we use that to live in more balance and alignment and flow? Yeah. And you know, with groups, working with groups to help in communication and collaboration and conflicts. Because you actually in real life see how the patterns are playing out. So I love getting in with groups and working with groups.

SPEAKER_00: 2:41

Yeah, I love that. I one of the questions that got asked when I was teaching about Enneagram that I loved that I want to ask you how is Enneagram different from different personality profiles? Like, what makes it different? And like, especially for you, like what made what do you love so much about Enneagram? What like drew you to it? What's your personal like what brought you to Enneagram?

SPEAKER_01: 3:02

Yeah. So, okay, so my story first, I'll say I learned the Enneagram probably 18 years ago. And it was with a group of friends. We all were, you know, we were we all got into it. We're talking about it all the time because we were at that time, we're in our 30s, young 30s. And you know, what we're figuring out ourselves and like, you know, who we really are and what we want out of life. So the Enneagram was so huge. And it was just like all of these aha moments of those things that you kind of knew about yourself, but you didn't really have wording for, or you didn't fully understand, like, you know, why you did this thing or what you were doing here. And so the Enneagram just, it was like this little cheat code. Like I call it like a user's manual to, you know, to who we are, how we operate, what's going on behind the scenes and our inner programming. And and it was great. And I loved it, and it was a lot of information. And then I kind of, you know, through the years, I would, you know, I'd come back to it and I'd think about it. And I knew a lot about my type structure. I lead Enneagram type two. And so I knew a lot about like what that meant to lead as a two. And then it was, well, I was, I was a teacher for I was in education. I was a teacher for 23 years, and I left that career in 2019, right before COVID. Like, who knew? Like I could not have been better timing, but who knew? And then, you know, we're all kind of at home doing our thing. And I pulled out some of my Enneagram books just out of, oh yeah, remember how much you love this. Like, let's dig back in that. And, you know, just it really just as kind of as a hobby, but also a little bit of I knew I still wanted to do something else, my second half of life thing. You know, what I didn't know what that was going to be, but I knew I wasn't done working yet. Um, you know, I was uh late 40s at the time. And so I knew I still had something else I wanted to do. And I went to Enneagram, you know, partly just because I loved it and partly the reminder of like how I, you know, I'm wired and what lights me up and like what's you know, what's the core motivation and and how to maybe use that in guiding my next steps. And I just got like I went down the rabbit hole. Like it was I started learning so much more. I was listening to Enneagram 2.0 podcast is one of my favorites, and Beatrice Chestnut, who wrote the book about subtypes, the complete Enneagram, and it's all about the different, there's three versions of each type. And then like from there, it was just like I it just kept going. And I ended up getting my certification. And it was because I was learning, like, it wasn't just information, it's a growth tool. Like there's something, there's there's something I can use this tool for too, and self-development, not just self-awareness. I mean, I think it's a huge self-awareness tool, but then it's self-development, like there you get to make shifts and movements. And I was learning about the um energetics and um some of the somatic work in that. And so to me, what sets Enneagram apart, like to go back to that original question, is there's a growth path and it's unique for each person with in their type or their subtype, which subtype is the the three versions of each type. And so there's a unique path for each person, and it gets down to that why, to the to the motivations, to the root cause of patterns and thinking and feeling, and you know, why you do the things you do. And I love like I think human design is amazing. Yeah, there and I love Myers Briggs. I think that's an awesome tool. But what I why I come back to Enneagram is because it helps you remove the protective patterns. Enneagram says that personality is really our protective patterns that we've built. And they worked great for us at one point, you know, as we're developing and becoming like, you know, as we're developing as humans, that you know, they're they're there for a purpose, but then they're getting us in our way. And so it's it's the it points out the places where we need to like make shifts, loosen up, relax a pattern so that we really can get back to the essence of what human design might be telling us, you know, we were created as, you know, in this essence. Um I love how Enneagram does that too.

SPEAKER_00: 7:07

Yeah, that's I think that's one of my favorite things about Enneagram, especially as a tool in a map, because I think there's a lot of very self-aware cognitive, you know. I think of like the women that I work with, they're almost always very self-aware, almost to like a detriment of like you have all this awareness and yet you're lacking sensation in your body. You're lacking an awareness. You're you have all of this cognitive mental information about your patterns, but actually having the like information in your body of how to change those patterns, of how to interrupt those cycles and those patterns. I think of you know, marriage or motherhood or business or, you know, the relationship you have with your family. It's so interesting to learn the exact ways, pretty much, that you are getting in your own way. But I love that Enneagram doesn't just leave you there. It doesn't just say, here's who and where you are. You're just this now you're that. It says, okay, here's here's your energetic blueprint where you are right now. Here's the patterns you're stuck in. Here's how you can change and at least have a healthier relationship to that pattern. It brings this agency of like choice and movement. And like you said, that actual personal development where change is happening in the way that you relate to yourself and the way that you relate to everyone else. I have seen Enneagram be one of the most profound tools for relationships because I think so many people they're in these relationships and they're trying to figure out, you know, communication. That's what everyone says is the solution to, you know, couple stuff. They're going, okay, you just need date nights and you just need communication. And I'm like, that doesn't work if both of you are speaking other languages and you don't even understand when they're no longer talking from who they are, they're talking from a protective pattern. But when you understand that, now we're not just like spin cycle going over and over the same fight, never getting anywhere. I feel like Enneagram has this grippiness of like it actually gives you the keys to the kingdom. It's so powerful.

SPEAKER_01: 9:19

Yeah. You and I, we are on the same page. I mean, like you hit so many of my favorite points with the Enneagram of like that it gives us choice. We don't just have to keep operating on these automatic autopilot patterns. We get to interrupt the cycle, break the cycle. We get choice in how we move forward. And then the self, when you talk about the relationship with self, I think that is like one of, I think it's a greatly impactful relationship tool with other people, but it starts with self first, right? And it changes that, at least it did for me. It changed the relationship that I have with myself. Because the Enneagram, I know some people like I hear people say that they feel like it's like a crit, it's criticizing, or it's like pointing out all like the negative things or the things that are wrong. And that's not the intention of the Enneagram, and that's not my take on it. Like when I bring the Enneagram to somebody, I'm not trying, it's not a tool to judge or shame or criticize. I mean, especially as women, oh my gosh, like how many ways do we find to criticize ourselves already? That's for me, it's this welcoming, accepting tool of like, oh, that's how I'm naturally wired. Oh, okay, all right, like that's okay. I see, I see that pattern now. I can see that more clearly now. And when I see it, I can welcome it, I can accept it, I can thank it for the protection it was trying to give me or it was giving me for the information it's giving me. And then I get to decide, like, if it's not working for me, I get to make the shift or loosen. But it's really about that welcoming in the and the accepting all the parts of myself, the parts that I used to want to push away or ignore or pretend weren't there, or the parts that made me kind of cringe and like eh, which is like I find it's like usually when people do discover their type, like there's a little bit of that like at the beginning of like, oh, oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 10:59

I always tell people, especially when they're like debating between two types, when they're like, okay, I got these. And I I'm just like, which one makes you cringe? Yeah, which one gives you this internal, like because and I do I love what you shared there because I do think for some people it's it's hard to know these things about ourselves, you know. When I first found Enneagram, at first it like didn't really, I was like, okay, whatever, I guess. But it as soon as I like actually started reading about I'm also a two, I was reading, I believe it was The Road Back to You was like my first Enneagram book. And I remember like all of a sudden it like just hit me in the chest. And I like literally just had tears streaming down my face because I think things that I was so I had so much shame about, but like I wouldn't have even been able to put language to it. Someone said the thing that I've never had language to say. And it hurt like hell. It hurt like hell to hear and see those sides of myself. And as soon as I had language for it and compassion for, oh my gosh, that is exhausting and hard. And also this permission that came with it of okay, here's this thing that I now know. Here's what you can do with that. And I feel like it can bring such a compassionate lens to the things that we have shame about because so many of the things that make our types great are also the things that are our weakness, right? Our weaknesses are our strengths that are over or underutilized. The thing that makes an eight great, also the thing that makes an eight really hard to be and to be with. And I think that's what I love about Enneagram, is I really think it can help us understand not just ourselves, but other people with such a beautiful deep lens where we're not just looking at what are we doing, who are we at a core level and what are we protecting? I think that's huge and can make such a big difference for everybody.

SPEAKER_01: 13:01

Yeah. Yeah, it's so true. I mean, it's like it's such the paradox. Like I think the Enneagram really is so good at pointing out the paradox that we just naturally live in. Yeah. And I because I don't want to say superpower, like I don't ever want to say like a type has a superpower, but there are gifts and there are strengths and there's things that we can learn from each type that it's very natural for that type. Like, yeah, the two, like I think it's like one of the things that we offer the world is to look at how a person can really prioritize relationships and connection and like, you know, and really value that. But for us leading type two, oh my gosh, like we have to work so hard to make sure that that's not like the thing that overtakes us or that like that's like all the focus is all consuming, yeah. Leave everything else over here. And so it's like this we learn from the from other types by looking at how like they do life. But usually for that type, it's like a challenge and a struggle.

SPEAKER_00: 13:56

That's something that they need to, you know, it's a muscle we have to work at, it's a skill that has to be built. And that's what I love, especially going back to like it's not just information, it's helping you realize like, oh, this is a muscle that like I have. I haven't used it though. I've never built it up. It's not maybe a natural movement pattern for me, but I can figure it out. Like on a regular basis, I, you know, I encourage people with Enneagram, like the healthier you get, the more mature you get, the less you look like a caricature of your type. Yeah. You know, like I look at I'm an Enneagram too, which arguably is one of the worst with boundaries at a natural lever, at a natural nature, nurture level. I've gotten pretty good at that. And also I can teach other people that like I understand it, but it would, that was a muscle that like I had to go build in the gym. I had to go build in real everyday life. It wasn't something that came natural to me, but I could develop it.

SPEAKER_01: 14:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 14:56

So as we talk about Enneagram, we're talking about how it's a map. It's this blueprint that helps you understand. I would say the first level of the map is understanding that there's these nine types, there's these nine points of views. We're not gonna go over those today. Yeah, but we we were going to talk about the instincts. Let's talk about like that part of the Enneagram map. What are those? What does that mean? And what are the different instinct types?

SPEAKER_01: 15:24

And before we get into instincts, real quick, I just want to say because you touched on this, that it's it's an energetic map. Like when you say it's a map, it's an energetic map of how, and like, and I'm just gonna real quick use that example of the boundaries, like for the for a two. Like when I discovered that, I was like, I kind of knew that I wasn't great at boundaries, but I didn't even really know that was the thing. Like I didn't know that was the thing that was blocking me and frustrating me and like you know, getting me in my own way. And then it's like when I could name that and see it, well, then there's that energetic connection. Like, this is where the arrows and the lines come in, you know, of like there's an energetic connection to eight, who's so great at the setting the boundaries, and the two and the eight have a natural path of of energy that we can pull on that. And that's what I like, I think is like so unique about the Enneagram that it's we have a little bit of all these types in us, and it's just learning how to like pull up the energy of some to balance ourselves out, you know, and to bring in those places. And then instincts is one of those places where we can do that. And so the instincts, they are it's really our at the most basic definition, it is our way that we look for safety and security in the world. It's kind of our survival mechanism, really. And it goes all the way back to like the f like caveman philosophy, like when our brains, because our brains are wired to protect us. Like that is just, and our bodies are wired to protect us. Like that's the brain, the body doing its natural job. And like when you go back to like the philosophy of like cavemen, like when there's like real dangers out there, you know, like you go outside and there's like those flying, like birds with teeth, and like, you know, the dinosaur, like all the things, you know, like that's it's it's like a real threat. Life is a real threat just to stay alive. Well, our brains don't have to keep us alive in that same way, but we still have the mechanism of the brain to do it to be wired in that way. And so, like, we're always looking for safety, we're looking for protection, but the instincts have like are more of the embodied way that we do that. It's more of like a body experience. And so it's often like what the part where it can be a challenge for us to see these, how they're showing up in us, because they're so automatic. They're so like they're like the they call them like the the reptilian brain, like how like you know, that that responds so quickly. But it our body is even faster, like you know, our body it's so quick to respond and it's so automatic, but it's how we look for safety, how we look for our security. And there's three different ways that we all do it, three different patterns that we use.

SPEAKER_00: 17:49

Yeah, and what you were saying too, I do think this is one of the hardest parts for people to understand. And I I'm curious your thoughts on this. But as you were saying that, I'm like, well, of course it is. You know, I one of my main models, tools, lenses I use with other people, but even myself, is somatics, which is body-based. And I'm also like, I started as a mindset coach, essentially. Like, yeah. And when I'm working with women, and the more I meet people, and even just looking at our culture, our culture is very disconnected and disassociated from the energetic body. I think it's only recently that people are even understanding that mental health is not just in your head, it's it's happening in your biology, it's happening in your physiology, it's happening in your chest and your shoulders and your posture. It's happening automatically and unconsciously. And I think especially our Western culture, we've moved so far away from felt sense, from feeling those instincts, from acknowledging those as one happening and too important. I think we're so fast to disassociate and go to mind, to go to story, to go to, well, this is just a mindset block. And it's like, no, this is literally happening in your biology and you're not choosing this, it's happening for you. So I'm curious like, is that how you would describe these instincts? Like they're happening at like a level that like a lot of people haven't actually tapped into yet, which is why, especially I think of like those highly ambitious, high performers who've done therapy, who've done coaching, they're stuck because like they're not connected to the like physiological instincts that are happening.

SPEAKER_01: 19:38

Yeah. And so this is not instincts, but there's there's the centers like we lead heart, head, and body. Um so a third of the people in the in within the Enneagram, like they lead with their body. So types eight, nine, and one, like experience and take in the world first, primarily like that's their first resource. But most of them don't even know that. Like they're not even aware of that. That's where they're taking in information, they're taking it and they're processing it and responding that way. Because, like you said, I mean, Western culture, it's so like it really elevates and gives a lot of attention to the mental center, right? Like, you know, if if we're good thinkers, if we really like, you know, like think through something and give it a lot of thought, like, you know, there's a lot of praise there. But like, you know, there's a lot of like for the emotions and like for like the feeling center, like it's there, you know, people can get like, you know, especially women, it's like, oh, you're too emotional, like you're too into like you're too like you're making decisions based on your feelings. And so like that kind of gets changed. So that one gets shut down a little. And then the body, I feel like that one's just almost like, what do you even mean? Like, you know, at least for me, like that's like that's often like what I get from people. Like, what do you mean, like sense with my body? Or like, what do you mean by it? Like the the somatic experience of your type in your body, and like like that's like just foreign, like it's teaching a language, it's like teaching a foreign language, like you know, like what that means and how to do that. And for me, that's absolutely how it was for me. Like, I didn't, I had no idea how to connect with my body and how to experience my type somatically in that way. And so the instincts, like this was all new for me because it is all body-based. Like the instincts are body-based. No matter whether you're leading heart, head, or body, it's still like it's you're experiencing in the body. And this is where I know like this stuff can get like real like nuanced and deep. And but it's connected, it's really important because it is also connected to your subtype, which is that version of your type that you lead with. And so it just everything gets even more specific for you. Like your patterns make a little more sense once you can like dial in and see how the instincts are operating in you, your growth path becomes a little more clear and it's a little more directed because these are so because because they're body-based, like, and I mean it's just like they're primal and they're like just at the core of everything. Like you can't think through your body, right? Like you can't like think your way out of that. Like it's just happening. And so you can't change what you don't know is in there.

SPEAKER_00: 22:11

Yeah. And at the same time, it's so fascinating. And and this is, I do think this is a hard topic. And I think somatics can be this way too, because it's subtle and it's nuanced and it's non-verbal. So we're trying to give language to something that inherently like isn't a language, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_01: 22:26

Right, right.

SPEAKER_00: 22:27

So, what what are these different instinct types?

SPEAKER_01: 22:31

So I think it's easiest to first kind of start and think thinking about them in animals because, like, I mean, we all have an animal drive. So they're kind of an animal instinct. Love that. We're part of the animal family, and it helps us to sort of look at it that way and then like kind of move into like how how humans might be doing that because the because animals are doing it without getting the thinking in the way, right? Like it's just so natural for them. So you've got like the self-preservation. I kind of think of like a rabbit. Like the rabbit is like kind of you're like the one out there, like that demonstrates, and I'm gonna put these like images and then I'll talk about each one, but like kind of thinking of like a rabbit for the self-preservation instinct, the social, I like to use like elephants, like anything that herds, wolves, elephants, like anything that's in a pack or a group. And then for one to one, which is sometimes also called the sexual instinct.

SPEAKER_00: 23:14

It I use one to one just out of habit because when I'm working with like if I'm working with like a corporate situation, and sexual just like really confuses people because then they immediately think it literally means like your sex life, and it's like just yeah, I'm not a sex coach, not here for that.

SPEAKER_01: 23:30

Like, yeah, but that one I think of like macaws, like the ones like because it's a very like a bonded relationship and macaws mate for life, you know. There's like they find their one partner, and there's so I kind of I like to put these like animals in the mind, like as before I start even talking about in the human realm, it's really what we perceive that we need to survive. I mean, it is a little bit what we actually need, but it's often really what we think we need and what we're perceiving that we need to survive. And so the self-preservation, like that one is it's more about um, it's not self-care. Like that's I think that is a is a common stereotype of like the self-preservation means like I'm really great at self-care. It's not necessarily necessarily self-care, it's but you do prioritize self in this way of I have to make it, like I have to make it another day. Like I have to learn, I I need to stay alive. And then that kind of goes to like the rabbit, like where like you know, like you think like, I mean, they're pretty, I mean, they're just they're kind of um vulnerable animals, you know, like the the rabbit. And so just always like thinking about like, what do I need to do to stay alive to make it? But they tend to be like a little more cautious people, a little more concerned about their surroundings, taking care of themselves in some way. It doesn't have to be, it can be like taking care of like health, it can be taking care of like making sure I have enough food, like you know, stocking the fridge. But it's really just like looking around and like, how do I keep myself safe? And at the end of the day, self-preservation instinct says it's up to me. I'm the only one who can do this for myself. So I have to really prioritize myself almost like it can look a little selfish sometimes because of the way they can prioritize self, but it's it's just this protection of it's up to me. I can't rely on others to do this. And so, like to go back to that caveman philosophy, like it would it'd be the like the one who is who is out there gathering and and hunting and finding the food, you know, like they're like it's up to me. Like, I gotta go do this. But the one-to-one instinct or sexual instinct, that one's like it's find your one other person, like get like they're really into those intense bonds, like they really want like it to go deep into a relationship. But again, it's about a survival instinct of if I have that one other person, like the two of us, we can get out there and we can conquer the world. I mean, there's there is it's it the part of it goes back to like you needed another person to like procreate and to like bring life into the world, but it's it's beyond that. Um, and that's where like the sexual, that's why it's called the sexual energy, but it's so much more than sex and and um procreation. It really comes down to like the the to be safe and secure, you need to find that one other bond, that another person. And then the social is find your group, find your community, find your your tribe, your people. And the group is what's going to keep you safe. You know, that you're like it's not okay to be out there on your own by yourself. You need to be in community and group. And that's like that's like the basic survival need. So it's like the one, the self-preservation is it's up to me. The one-to-one, it's us, you and I, we've got this, and then the social. It's a we, like a more collective. And and I'm gonna stop there if I I can get into I'll get into a little bit of what they look like, but I'll just stop there for for right now.

SPEAKER_00: 26:48

For self, for self-pres, I'm curious. Do they tend to show up? I'm thinking of like hyper independent people who are like, it's it's all on me to get this, figure this out because you know, I'm thinking of, you know, listeners who this is maybe maybe Enneagram's new to them, or maybe this facet of Enneagram is new to them. And I'm thinking of like, there's so many hyper-independent women who feel like everything's on them. Can that show up in several of these? Or do you feel like there's one over the other where like there's such an intense pressure on it's all on me? I have to get this done. Or yeah, I'm curious about that.

SPEAKER_01: 27:29

Yeah, and that's it's a great question. And then it's hard one to answer at the same time because um it's it's yes and no. So so these instincts, just as they are as instincts, uh and I'll like I'll explain a little bit more how they operate just alone, but then the idea is that the instinct combines with our type structure, and our type is going to distort how the instinct looks. So the type is actually going to distort the way we use it. And so instead of always using it for our best advantage or self or like in the best way, where it's it's showing up a little, it's showing up distorted or almost sometimes self-defeating for us, you know, like it can be a it can be that another block. So like with what you're asking, like it's a it's a yes, like yeah, that does like in defense, we often will like go into that like hyper independence, especially the self-preservation. But then also that's really very type eight. It's a certain type sixes might do that, but then other sixes would never do that. Like it's just like that's this is where it gets like really kind of yeah, murky. Yeah, but it depends on how we're using it. And so here's another thing, too, is that we have all three, we use all three, but one of them is like our lead, our dominant and often overused in some way and often not for our best. And so, like I like to say one of them drives the car for us, one's kind of riding along in the backseat, and then there's usually one that's kind of in the trunk that doesn't get checked in with as much. And so, depending on how you're using it, it can cause you to either like a self-preservation might be, yeah, like solo, it's all me, it's on me. And then another self-preservation might be like, oh, that's a lot for me to do by myself. And no, it's I know it's all on me, but I'm also gonna find some people like and or some guidance, or I'm gonna find support in some way because that's a lot, even though they both at the end of the day think it's still on them, if that makes sense. Like it's just it's it really depends on the type.

SPEAKER_00: 29:25

So we all we all have all three. And does it does it ever change in that like you have your main one? Does your main one ever change like as you get healthier? Or do you just develop the other ones to like use? Because you know, all of these are healthy, normal responses, instincts. These make sense. We don't need to just like nervous system regulation, right? Like, the point isn't to get rid of fight, flight, freeze, fawn. It's to have dynamic movement between all of those. So I'm curious with these. Do they change? Do we use them all? What does that look like?

SPEAKER_01: 30:04

So theory says that it doesn't change. Like you're what the one that you lead with, you lead with that one. Like that doesn't change, but you are trying to balance them out, bring up the one you're not using as much and check in with it because they all have a they all serve their purpose. Yeah. So like you know, the self-preservation, it does help, it does encourage us to turn in and take care of ourselves. And like so, I'm one who that's my least. That's the one I I use last. So, like, like these glasses, I'll just use that. I'm looking at them. So I'll take for example. This is a two-year-old prescription. I'm like finding myself there in their um progressives. So, like this bottom one, you know, is like the one. I find myself sometimes just doing this, like to like actually like see better because I have not gone in to change out the prescription, which is not a, I mean, it's not a big thing, you know. Like I could go do that, but it just kind of gets it just keeps getting put to the back of the list, you know, of things that because I lead social. So like the things that that involve others and groups and my belonging and like you know, how I'm showing up and the thing, those are the things that like speak to my value and my safety and my security is in like how I am seen and like how the how the group, like how I'm showing up, how I'm giving to the group, you know, like am I a good member in this group, you know? And so like that's where my energy goes, that's where my attention goes naturally. And so these other things just kind of get put over here, you know, on the back burner of self. And so the idea is, yeah, check in with that instinct, like make sure you are like really paying attention and like you saving some energy for self, you know, because I know like that that's just my energy is naturally gonna go out versus in. Yeah. One as a two, but also with that instinct. So it's like a double whammy. So the idea is to use it each one for its purpose and like in the social instinct, like it it's great for us to like really be concerned about the collective and like you know how we provide in a community and how we bring value, and like that's great, again, like but it's to be too overfocused on belonging it pulls our attention away. And our, you know, we only have we all have so much energy when your attention is all in this one place, you don't have energy for other things. And then the you know, the one-to-one, like it's so valuable to it to like really get deep in relationships and like and also like there's a connection to like vitality of life and to like showing up as like as bringing your full self and leaving legacy, like those are all part of that energy that comes with that instinct, and so they all have these like you know needs and purposes, and so it's it's making sure that we're using them in the right way and that we don't let one run the show and we don't forget about the other one.

SPEAKER_00: 32:45

Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. I'm curious if we can go into just a few examples of some of the different instincts and maybe like how they show up in a specific type.

SPEAKER_01: 32:55

Yeah. I'll start with well, I'll start with an example just with my husband and I. So he leads self-preservation and he leads self-preservation nine, which is like instead of actually like really focusing on self, it's like the least focused on self outwardly until you get defended, until you get like until you feel like the threat is there in front of you, which again is whatever we perceive as a threat. So for him, the threat is oh, you're taking away my autonomy or my voice or my choice or something like that. And and then it's this immediate I'm done. Like this is like like there's this wall, and it's like, and I'm out, I'm gonna go like I've got this all by myself. Like if if we're in, like, you know, if we were in an argument or something, like it's that immediate for him, it's so natural to be like, yep, we're done. I got this, it's all on me now. I like you and I, mm-mm. Like, and that's his um his like automatic immediate reaction is pull in. You're like no more connecting. I'm gonna go away. I'm just gonna pull away. And for me, I lead social. And so I'm like what matters to me is my connection. Are my connections okay? Is am I okay? Like, how do you see me? Like, how are you perceiving me? And so I'm doing this and leaning in and moving toward, and I want the immediate fix. I want to like get to the point like right now and to solve right now, and I want to, I want it all to be okay. Like that whole, like when he leaves and goes in, I'm like it, like I'm my natural reaction is like to go after and like chase after and like turn and it it's like, oh my gosh, like we get caught in this cycle of me coming in and forward to try to get to like the resolution and solve and make sure like our connection's okay and we're okay and I'm okay. And he's over here, like it and until like when now when I saw that, like I when I understood how self-preservation like pulls back and how social goes in, or even or one-to-one too, like one-to-one really will go into. But when you understand and you can see how that's operating, it's like, oh like, and now I know, like, as much as I automatically want to go forward and figure it out, like if I can just step back and give him that space and that time, it's so much better. And so like to me, the instincts like happen the relate, the way it shows up in relationships for me has been like the biggest eye-opener.

unknown: 35:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 35:33

Yeah, that one like is always has has been very helpful for us of understanding like the social self-preservation move. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 35:44

That what you were just sharing, I think is one of the most powerful. I mean, typically I'm coming at this from a somatic lens. So it's fun talking about like the Enneagram lens. But one of the things I'm talking to women about first when we're talking about conflict, whether that's conflict with their kid, conflict with their kids, conflict with like a partner, is noticing your physiological reaction and emotional reaction to that conflict, to that perceived threat. Do you move towards but against with like a fist? And I'm not saying like literally, I'll always say like not literally, but like for example, my husband's an eight, and like when he's under conflict, when we are in tension, he just has this intense fight energy. I have this intense fawn energy of I move so far out of myself and I'll attune so hardcore to him that I often lose context of myself. I often like I call it like I lose my backbone, I lose relationship to self. And so in conflict, understanding that like my job is to like help myself pull back to center so that I'm not being reflexive and responsive and not see his fight as an attack on me, but like a physiological posture that he's having out of protection. And when you start understanding that, and you know, there's there's types that and there's responses somatically where like conflict happens and you shut down, or you pull away and you avoid. And understanding that point of conflict, now we're getting somewhere because now we can talk about connection through conflict, not just quote unquote communication. Because in my personal opinion, I don't care how good you get at saying the right words, you won't how you won't be able to find those words if you're frozen, first of all, because that's one of the first things that happens for a lot of fawners is you freeze. You don't you don't have the words until you're in the shower and they're not there. And now you have the now you have some shit to say to your husband, right? Yeah. But as soon as you're in conflict, yeah, you forget the words. Or all of a sudden, like you're confused or you're overthinking, or you can only think about like what they want and need, and you kind of lose context with yourself. It's like all of that communication skills goes offline if you can't find how you're physiologically responding to that conflict in the first place. Because now, now we can get to this point where you're in your own responses, you're witnessing theirs. Now you can connect to each other. And if you're both super, super dysregulated, you can figure out how to regulate first because communication won't work when you're dysregulated. That's like, yeah, if you cut, I always tell people, I'm like, okay, you know, when your kid's a toddler and you like cut the crust off the sandwich and they throw a fit. Yes. Can you logically explain to the toddler that they're okay in that moment? Can you communicate effectively with them? No, because they're dysregulated. And it's like, I don't care how healed and healthy you get, adults also get dysregulated.

SPEAKER_01: 38:54

Absolutely. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 38:55

We will always get dysregulated. So understanding those tools for that dysregulation, and it sounds like instincts could be a really interesting way for people to play with Enneagram of understanding how that's showing up for them.

SPEAKER_01: 39:08

Yes. It means, yeah, it is it's been huge to see what I prioritize too. I get it the instincts will show me what I prioritize and what I value. And I mean, I used to find myself saying to my husband, I can't believe you don't care about that. And he was, well, what makes you think I don't care about this? And it was like, Oh, you don't care as much as me. Because you weren't showing it the way I was, you know, it but we were both caring about the same thing. But for him to care, like it was it came back to him. Uh it's all up to me to fix this. I gotta figure out a way. So he's gonna like go in, get internal, figure out the way. And I'm over here like doing, doing, doing, and like like outwardly trying to, it looks like I'm trying to fix the thing, you know. Where um, so in my mind, I was like, Oh, I'm sure look how much I show I'm caring about it. I'm trying all these things. And it was just it's just the difference of how we operate and what we perceive to be like the thing that matters the most, what we value the most, all of that comes out in our instincts. And then how we go about making it happen is there's so many, there's just so much there. Like once you can find that spot, and I think that I mean it's helpful to look, we always say with the Enneagram, you can't really rely on behaviors because behaviors can look alike, you know, for so many different types. But when it's coming to the instincts, you do have to watch behaviors a little bit because they do, and for me, it was I had to actually start asking other people what they saw because some of them were happening so fast and automatic that I wasn't. You didn't even notice. Yeah. And you asked earlier about like, do the instincts change? When I was first discovering this and like and trying to, you know, learn this for myself of like which one did I lead with? I was in a survival place in my own life. Of I had just gotten married like later in life, and you know, no kids of my own, but my husband brought two kids. So I was step-momming, and you know, these kids were in middle school, and so there was that aspect. I I had left like this very independent life and moving into like what does that look like to merge, you know, with life and join. Merge is not the word join, you know, with another, but like just so many places that and all the tools that worked for me, and like you know, single Michelle, I didn't have those as married Michelle, and like and just all the you know, all the different things. And so I was in a very self-preservation space that I was like, oh, I must lead self-preservation, like that has to be it. And my friends are like, and my sister and my husband, like, no, like this, the I you know, as I went through like with and I was asking them, you know, what do you see this or this? It was like unanimous, like the social was the one. But I just couldn't see it at that time because I was in a different space. And but I needed to lean into that space to kind of figure out this new role that I was in and this new like how my how I could still show up as me in these new spaces.

SPEAKER_00: 42:07

You know, I was just thinking, I'm curious if the self-preservation tends to be an internal processor, and the social and one-to-one tend to be external processors. And that might not be like obviously like a rule or a direct connection, but as you were talking about that, I'm like, that's so interesting, especially when it comes to like intensity.

SPEAKER_01: 42:30

Well, and you know, what's interesting with that is so typically they would say like the one-to-one energy, the sexual energy, that's the more intense, like they call that instinct's like the hot instinct. Social tends to be cool and the self-preser warm. And at first that was confusing to me. I was like, well, I would have thought the social warm, but this this the self-preservation is warm because it's if I don't get like if I'm not accepted in this group in some, or not in that's not the group necessarily, but just in the world, if I'm not accepted in some way, like who's gonna take care of me? Yeah, who's it's almost like a childlike instinct in there of like that makes you want to like look likable and agreeable to people so that they'll be there for you. Because it's different than the the social energy. It's more, and the reason why cooler on that is because it is more about group belonging versus like take care of me, but it's it's support of the group and uh image. Like it really comes down to almost like this image of the group. So that there's this cooler of don't like don't show all your cards or show the right cards, like just to make sure that like this is what's accepted and valued in this particular space. And so I mean, it's just like the the uh the differences can be so like they can be confusing because they can look so similar, but yeah, like it comes from this different motivation of why you want the belonging or the acceptance. And it looks different for self-preservation than for social.

SPEAKER_00: 43:58

Yeah, such an interesting facet. And you know, in case people are new to the Enneagram, each type within each type has a specific instinct and that will shift how your type shows up.

SPEAKER_01: 44:13

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 44:14

Yeah. Anything do you feel like we missed anything, or is there anything else or even any like stories or like examples of like how this showed up in your life or a client's life as to like why the instincts matter or how they shift us or how it helps us, you know, with that personal development?

SPEAKER_01: 44:35

Yeah. And the why it matters for me, it's it comes back to relationship and just how you show up. Because again, it is, it's in your, it's usually in your place where you're a little, you'll start to see it in your places where you're a little dysregulated, where you are a little like you're in survival or protection mode. And those aren't typically our like healthiest, like the places where we're making our best choices or like you know, and then responding in the best ways for ourselves or for the other person. And so like to notice those and to be able to see and to be able to stop that loop to me is just it's huge and it's so valuable to it, especially in I just always come back to relationship and to people. Like for me, that that's been like the biggest that's where it's been the most helpful for me. But it's I mean, it showed me like it how I was where my attention was, where my energy was. And then it gave me cues of when I was feeling dysregulated. Why? Like what is there a core need that's not getting met here? Is there a value that's off? Is there um has a boundary been crossed that maybe I didn't know I had? But it was like there's so many indicators in this. And then we today, I I mean, I think we scratched like this much of the surface. There's so much there. Yeah, but it really just starts with like like anything in the Enneagram is the awareness and noticing and just watching how you show up.

SPEAKER_00: 45:58

And I think too, I always give people encouragement too. Like at least my approach is it's a tool, and the only thing that matters isn't necessarily that you quote unquote have the right one. It's are you playing with it and like getting your hands dirty with it and like seeing what shows up? Yeah. I think, I think because it gives us so much permission to like look at ourselves, not just at a deeper level, because again, I don't think it's just like, oh, I have all of this head awareness. It's like, oh, let me actually see if I can do something a little bit different. Yes, where and when it's not working for me what I've been doing. So it's like, can you just play with this? So, like, even if you jump into this area of Enneagram and you're like, I don't really know which one I am, maybe just start paying attention, just start noticing and use this as like a lens to start seeing how, okay, when me and my husband are in a fight, what is like my posture? What is my positioning? What is what is it that I'm like, am I literally even with physiologically in your body? Are you leaning forward? Are you leaning out? Are you pulling away? Like, what is it that's happening? And can you maybe, you know, reference to your Enneagram, look, go look up your types and those different instincts and say, like, is it this one? Oh, let's play with that. Let's see, okay, can I lean into the health of this? Can I lean into like the other two where I'm not utilizing them as much? What would what would you say of like if people want to play with this, how you start playing with it?

SPEAKER_01: 47:33

Exactly what you've just said is to start like, you know, and I would say I've got my website, I don't have instincts as much, but I do have an ebook that has some information. Cool. I've tried to simplify the instincts as much as you can. Yeah. To just get a very basic, like general understanding of that and to just to look to see how they're showing up. And then it's just, yeah, like to push pause. I think the pause is probably the absolute, like I think it's yeah, it's the absolute number one tool to use within the Enneagram is just push a pause and notice. Like just get curious of exactly what you just said of like, you know, like why, why am I doing this or responding this way? Why am I saying this thing? What who was there? What triggered? Just start asking the questions and paying attention and then just start to notice and go back and look and see, like, yeah, could this have been an instinct response that was going on here? But just yeah, just to notice and watch is the first step.

SPEAKER_00: 48:30

Yeah, because that noticing, watching, and that pausing, I mean, I agree. I think any client I'm working with, it's like one, when I'm coaching, that's the first thing I'm gonna do. I mean, first I'll let them go off the rails and do their little thing, and I'll be watching them slowing it down, and then I'll invite them to slow it down and like, okay, let's actually like slow it down and pause this before we just rattle the whole call. But it's so important when we do this because that's what interrupts the pattern. That's what interrupts the trigger. That's what interrupts the thing that's not working for you, whether that is in motherhood, if it's in business, if it's in relationships. If you can pause and slow it down, it brings you back to presence. Like that is truly what presence is when your mind is where your body is, when your intention is where your action is. And I think so often we're just running on autopilot. And I think Ennegram is such an invitation to witness here's here's your autopilot manual.

SPEAKER_01: 49:29

Yep.

SPEAKER_00: 49:30

Great in a lot of ways. And like we've got some systems that could use some help. And what's cool is when you start doing that over and over and over again, you start building different habits just by pausing and interrupting because you bring back choice, you bring back maturity, you bring back presence and even just I would say like embodied action versus like habitual action. It's like you're the one choosing this, not just your pattern choosing it for you.

SPEAKER_01: 49:59

And just naming it, just noticing that naming takes some of the power out of the pattern.

SPEAKER_00: 50:04

For sure.

SPEAKER_01: 50:04

And I mean, that pause, like I that's I I can't I can't do a session with anyone or a group or anything without talking about that because the presence, the only place the presence is, is in the body. Like our minds can go future, they can go past emotions. We can pull up old emotions, but the body is the present is where presence is. And as soon as you slow down and you you get like you can connect to what's going on somatically. My newest Enneagram mentor is a somatic coach, and I'm learning.

SPEAKER_00: 50:32

I love that so much.

SPEAKER_01: 50:33

It's like, yeah, it's been amazing. And like to really connect and how it's operating there because those are your cues, like those really are the cues. And the Enneagram's to me the best tool to teach us that how to notice those. And so I will always go back to it for that. Like it's I love it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 50:51

Yeah. Something I love that I think you are uniquely great at with Enneagram is I really see you connecting the the logical information of the Enneagram. Cause I think Enneagram can be just more information of like data.

unknown: 51:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 51:13

And I see you really taking it to this embodied felt sense, which I think is so beautiful. Cause I think so many people are becoming more aware of how disconnected we are from body. And I think even deeper than body, how disconnected we are from like soul, spirit, essence, energy. And I feel like you're bringing Enneagram and those together, which is so beautiful because now it's giving language and tangible things to be able to understand body because it's like that. I I think it bridges those people who you're like, I'm so disconnected from my body. And it's like, well, we can use the mind to connect with the body. We don't have to disassociate and disconnect from thought and mind and information. It's just we need to reconnect those so that you're this whole person who has all of your systems online, right? Like we didn't even go into centers of intelligence, right? But that's the like, we need your gut instinct online. We also need your brain thinking online. We also need your heart and emotions online. And it's like if we can have all three of those online working together, yeah, you're gonna be set.

SPEAKER_01: 52:18

Yeah. Oh my gosh, I could talk to you all day. I know because like it's so it is so true. Like for me, it's the thing that brought me back. I was in a state of deconstruction with my faith. It's the thing that brought me back to this, like such a connected spiritual essence in the experience for me. It's the somatic experience, like it's what that's how I learned to really be in my body, not just have a body, but to like be my body and be in my body. Yeah. It was the thing that taught me to not only like as the two, I lead emotions and feelings, but to like to stop. Like feelings are great, and emotions are great, that lots of great information, but then check in with my head too. Like, am I not? I don't just think or don't just make decisions based on my feelings, but like really like, you know, bring all three body, head, heart online. And then with the instincts, like the same thing of like it's just there, it's just checkpoints. It's all these checkpoints, but it's like opened up so much for me and how I experience myself, other people, the world, because I have so I understand my lenses now. Like I can see, I know how I'm how I'm experiencing it. And yeah, like the choice to me, like that's like that's it. Like I don't want to live on autopilot. I don't want to keep like I don't want to have this programming that runs me. I want to have choice. And so I will continue for the rest of my life to keep looking at those patterns because I want to continue to live in that alignment, that space of choice, alignment of more balance and more freedom. And yeah, so yeah, that's that's what I love. That's what I love about it.

SPEAKER_00: 53:53

Yeah, because I think I think there's so many women in a you know, this podcast. I think there's so many women in motherhood who don't feel connected to their sense of power, to their sense of agency, to their sense of like, yes, I have choice in this. And I think that, like what you were just saying, like what a beautiful gift to give back to people. Because I don't, I don't think we ever empower people. I think we can give permission for people to access their power, but like so often people are like, I don't know who I am anymore. Or they're like, I don't know how to trust my gut. I don't feel my instincts again. And I think people truly need to be taught one and given permission of how to do that, because I think for so long we have just been taught how to disassociate and disconnect from those parts of ourselves and those pieces, and it's all about behavior or it's all about good and bad versus you know, here's some compassion and also some like accountability, like yeah, really intense accountability of like you have options of what you do with that now that you know, and I think it does hit those shame centers for people, and I think that's that's because it's powerful and it's getting to the real root of the issues instead of just trying to like mindset the shit out of everything, which like it only gets you so far, it really is exhausting. It's it's exhausting, and I think people get caught on the rat race of it. But this this conversation was so good. I loved this so much, Michelle. Where can people find you if they want to learn more about you?

SPEAKER_01: 55:34

So my website is Origins Ineagram Consulting. Or sorry, my website's originsineagram.com. But my Instagram is origins Ineagram Consulting, which I realize is a mouthful. But the origins is I couldn't leave it because it's like that's to me, it's like get us, it gets us back to the root of who we are. So it's the origin.

SPEAKER_00: 55:53

So yeah, and we'll link those, of course, in the show notes. So yeah, okay. Michelle, thank you so much for being here today. And you guys, if you enjoyed this episode, me and Michelle would love to hear from you. Please share it on social media, share it with a friend, tag us, send us a DM. If you have a question, if you have a thought, we would love to hear from you. And also take a minute, leave a review. I it's so funny. I'm a huge podcast listener. And I recently have been really challenging myself that when I listen to an episode I love, take two seconds to leave stars or leave a review, or even on Instagram. How often now are we seeing things and like you love it and then you don't do anything about it? I'm like, just take a second and heart it, leave a little comment, actually be social. Anyways, thank you so much for being here today, Michelle. And we will see you guys next time on the podcast. Thanks for joining me on today's episode of the Motherhood Mentor Podcast. Make sure you have subscribed below so that you see all of the upcoming podcasts that are coming soon. I hope you take today's episode and you take one aha moment, one small tangible piece of work that you can bring into your life to get your hands a little dirty, to get your skin in the game. Don't forget to take up audacious space in your life. If this podcast moved you, if it inspired you, if it encouraged you, please do me a favor and leave a review. Send an episode to a friend. This helps the show gain more traction. It helps us to support more moms, more women. And that's what we're doing here. So I hope you have an awesome day. Take really good care of yourself, and I'll see you next time.