Parenting Big Feelings & Strong Wills With Loving Boundaries with Mary Van Geffen

Do you have a strong-willed, big-feeling, highly sensitive child who feels like “too much”?

Parenting the “Spicy” Child: Strong-Willed Kids, Big Feelings, and Connection-Based Discipline

Parenting a strong-willed, big-feeling child can feel like living next to a volcano-beautiful, powerful, and unpredictable.

We explore what Mary calls the spicy child: kids with high intensity, low adaptability, high perceptibility, and high persistence. These are the children who feel deeply, notice everything, and refuse to be easily managed.

You’ll learn why shame and punishment backfire, how to regulate your nervous system during meltdowns, and how to lead with connection while still holding firm boundaries.

We also talk about parenting in community spaces, navigating pressure to control behavior, and why repair after rupture is one of the greatest gifts you can give your child.

If you’re raising a sensitive, strong-willed child and want fewer power struggles, more cooperation, and deeper trust—this episode is for you.

✨ In This Episode, We Cover:

• The four traits of a “spicy” child
 • Why traditional discipline doesn’t work for sensitive kids
 • How to stay calm during meltdowns
 • The “conscious pause”
 • Completing the stress cycle
 • Play as a regulation tool
 • Separating your nervous system from your child’s
 • How to repair after hard moments
 • Mary’s book, audiobook, quiz, and preorder bonuses

You can pre-order Mary's new book here: Pre-Order Parenting a Spicy One 

Check out Mary on Instagram

If you are local to Northern Colorado- come join our book club! 

⏱️ Timestamps

00:00 – Introduction: Parenting the “Spicy” Child
 02:45 – What Makes a Child “Spicy”? The Four Core Traits
 07:30 – Why Punishment and Shame Backfire
 12:10 – Gentle Parenting vs. Nervous System Leadership
 16:40 – Parenting Under Community & Church Pressure
 21:15 – Making Regulation Visible
 26:00 – Completing the Stress Cycle
 30:20 – The Conscious Pause During Meltdowns
 34:45 – Why Lectures Don’t Work Mid-Storm
 38:10 – Playful De-Escalation: Singing, Silliness, and Connection
 42:55 – When Your Child’s Energy Overwhelms You
 47:30 – Separating Your Experience From Theirs
 51:20 – Repair After Rupture: Owning Impact
 56:10 – Raising Future Leaders, Not “Too Much” Kids
 59:40 – Mary’s Book, Quiz, and Preorder Bonuses
 1:03:15 – Final Reflections + Listener Invitation

If you’re ready to stop living on autopilot and start leading your life with deep presence, I’d love to work with you. Book a free interest call here: Click Here

💌 Want more? Follow me on Instagram @themotherhoodmentor for somatic tools, nervous system support, and real-talk on high-functioning burnout, ambition, healing perfectionism, and motherhood. And also pretty epic meme drops. 

🎧  Did you love this episode? Be sure to follow and please take a quick moment to leave a review and send this episode to a friend. I'd love to hear from you on how this podcast impacted you, send me a DM or an email. 

Transcript

Welcoming Mary And The “Spicy” Lens

SPEAKER_00 0:01

Welcome to today's episode of the Motherhood Mentor podcast. I am beyond excited for today's episode because I have Mary Van Geffen back with me on the podcast. Mary is just one of my favorite people I've ever met. And I had the lovely pleasure of getting to hang out with her in Vegas. And for the hypno hypnosis conference, what was it even called?

SPEAKER_02 0:28

Something conscious marketing is what it was called.

SPEAKER_00 0:32

Conscious marketing, because Simone's soul was there. And then we all kind of went for that and then got to meet her there. But long story short, her approach to parenting felt like a breath of fresh air. And when I first found you on Instagram, mine or Simone's? Yours. You. When I first found you and heard this language of spicy one, I laughed out loud because I've always called my daughter spicy. And I found out from a very young age parenting her as a toddler. I was like, oh, this gentle parenting isn't making you gentle. And I realized that like I couldn't just be gentle and kind and nice because like that was not working. I felt like I was being trampled by a toddler. And I didn't find you until a few years ago. But your work and now reading your book, I'm like, okay, I finally have a book. Because people are always like, give me a book. I'm trying to yell at my kids less. I'm trying to conscious parent. I'm trying to break cycles. And they're like, give me a book. I'm like, I don't, I don't have one book that I really love that like acknowledges the depths of the experience of parenting. So all that to say, Mary Van Geffen is here. We're going to talk about her new book, Parenting Your Spicy Child. I should have written it down.

SPEAKER_02 1:46

Never. It's your spicy one. Parenting a spicy one. A compassionate guide for raising a deep feeling and wonderfully strong-willed kid.

SPEAKER_00 1:55

Oh my gosh. Brilliant. I love it. Will you introduce yourself and like what made you write this book? Hi, everybody.

SPEAKER_02 2:03

It's good to be back. I'm Mary Van Geffen, the parenting coach for the spicy ones. I wrote the book that I so wish my mother had when I was little. If my mother had read this book and realized that her worth was not tied up in my behavior or whether I made her proud or met the expectations that she had for me, we would have such a different relationship. And, you know, I think I think we go through our struggles for a definite reason and we become stronger trees when there's lots of storms. But I can imagine how much easier my life might have been if I didn't feel hard to love growing up.

SPEAKER_00 2:46

That just hit me right in the feels. I mean, I my mom and I laugh if only she had the language of like my sensory input as a child. Like just that. Like my like, what do you mean you just can't wear jeans that touch your belly button? You know, and just I can't imagine navigating parenting without the language and the tools and resources that I've had for my kids.

unknown 3:11

Yeah.

Rewriting Mother-Daughter Stories And Shame

SPEAKER_02 3:12

I have that experience. It's been an interesting like journey of full circleness of like in my 20s, blaming my mom in my 30s, needing my mom as I raised kids, but but being at odds with the way she still shows up with small people who frustrate her. And then having bringing going on a journey where I was able to access so much self-compassion for the parts of me that were angry and hostile and rough with my child. I now have so much more compassion for her. Like she was doing it alone. Like, where would I be if I didn't hadn't learned these things? I would be doing the same things. And so I have a I have a lot of empathy for the boomers. I I find it irritating when they're standing on street corners, like, I can't believe my child is strange for me. It's so painful. I don't like that vibe because there's they're not taking any responsibility for, I mean, the typical mom on a respectful parenting journey, or I guess we called it gentle parenting for a while, and that didn't stick. She is apologizing more like before lunch than our parents ever did to us in our whole entire lifetime. And so it's just a whole generation of people making this up. And so I wanted to create a guide for those trying to be a certain kind of parent with a kid that does not go with the program. You know, an intense, fiery, strong feeling, deep sense of justice kid that has way more loyalty to their own soul than to what mom says is the best way forward. And so that plummets us into a dark night of the soul. Like there's a spiritual journey of what the F am I gonna do if if I see my role as the one in control, and I can't control this kid. So I just wanted, I wanted to pour out what I've learned. So it's I someone said, Oh, it's a memoir. I was like, I've never heard of that. A memoir meets moms. Yes, it is it is my story, a little bit of me as a kid, a little bit of me effing things up with my children at a young age, but most of it is, hey, here's what I invite you to do to have a lifelong relationship with someone who doesn't want you to tell them what to do.

SPEAKER_00 5:49

Yeah. Well, and I mean, just having the language, just having like the language and the experience of what it's like to be parenting a spicy one, just that for me, it's like a deep sigh of relief. Like it's a full exhale in my body of I knew from a very early age, I was like, oh, this is not a mild child. This is like even as an infant. And I remember like so much of the parenting advice that I was surrounded by as a new mom was that make sure you break their will, make sure they're obedient and submissive. And I remember having this piece of me that went, I want her to keep her will intact. I want her to have good boundaries. I want her to know what she wants and know how to go after it. I don't want to break her will. I don't want to break her spirit, but also, what the fuck else am I supposed to do? Like, because it also didn't fit to have no boundaries, to have no expectations. Like, I wanted to be a healthy authority. I knew that. I was like, she does need a healthy authority. She does need this supportive, grounded person who's emotionally intelligent. And it it kind of felt to me like there was just these two extremes of like high control, where I make her very afraid and submissive. And it's like, well, I don't want that. And it's so funny, as a teenager, my husband and I are consistently giggling at like we would have never even thought to tell our parents this or ask our parents this. Like there would have been, like it would have never even occurred to us like the just do what I say. Like for one, it just wasn't working. And it was like literally, there's been seasons of my life I where I'm like, if it's a battle of wills, she's gonna win. Like the more she injured, the more she thinks I'm gonna fight her on this, she will die on that hill. And I love that about her. And I was like, okay, I have to find a different way to parent her. So can we talk about like what is it that makes a spicy one? Can we give some language for people of like, how do you know you're parenting a spicy one? I'm sure people already know, but like you talk about the four challenges of like raising a spicy one, and you have your spicy one quiz, which I giggled the entire time taking it, both for myself and for the child, because both we're all spicy here. So, can we talk about that a little bit? What is a spicy one? Can we give language to that experience?

Defining A Spicy Child: Four Traits

SPEAKER_02 8:16

Yes. I I write something and then I forget about it. So I'm gonna I'm opening up the book because I had to read the book. Yeah, I had to communicate it in an organized fashion because I can wax poetic about just this child who fights tooth and nail and negotiates everything right up until the point that they realize, oh wow, mom means it. And then they melt and become just weeping. And they're they're an Eeyore who always sees what's not quite good enough. So they destroy the family trip with their attitude and they can't seem to handle more than two errands. But instead, I will be more methodical and say it's there's four main temperament traits that I see as a spicy one. And one is high intensity, and that can look like louder than the rest of the kids. It can look like the flash of emotion or feelings always being so extreme, even when they're happy. They are screaming, and you can you can if you can hear a piano fall, you can hear them coming down the hall. That's a lyric from a Jack White song, and that's a spicy one. Number two is low adaptability. When thing when plans change or when they create this picture in their mind, which they're very good at romanticizing what's gonna happen. Maybe it's their birthday, their expectations, yeah, that they'll never have to get a shot if they do go to the doctor, whatever they conjure up in their mind, when that's not what reality is, it's really hard for them to shift up and adapt. And they just get mired in it. And some of that is never gonna change. Some of that is yeah, it's just it, and and so a lot of my work is like, can we stop grieving what just is like, yes, grieve it, but stop fighting it because suffering comes from fighting reality. So we said high intensity, low adaptability, then we have high perceptibility. Generally, they are so sensitive to any change in the environment, changes in their food, changes where sleep is not like they're awful over the holidays and times when the routine changes up. They they really need routine and they fight against it. So it's hard to be the person in charge of that. And then highly persistent. If they want something, these are the people that make it happen. They, if you say no, they go and ask the next person and they just are, they just don't stop. Now, what's not in there is that is low, is their high sensitivity to shame, almost like cigarette smoke. Some people you cannot smoke around. I what am I talking about? I don't smoke, but there's some people that it would like create an asthmatic reaction. And that is the same with the spicy one. If you use old paradigm parenting, like, you know what, that's not okay. Bad boy. And I, you know, I had a moment where I was like, bad girl, you either crush this child, dim their sparkle, and they push whatever the thing is underground and you're no longer a safe person for it, or they flip it over and give it back to you 200% because the shame is so intolerable to them. So we have to really make sure with this kid that we don't separate from them or punish because it doesn't work. The research shows that this kid needs a different kind of parenting. We need to stay in connection with them as we guide them. And so figuring out ways to create a warm relationship are really important. And they're not common sense with this kid because they can be so prickly, such a porcupine, that it's we can be like, ah, you know what, forget it. Or we can get into our own triggers and give them the silent treatment when we really have to be the adult in the room and we have to be the calmest person and we have to practice unconditional love. And in the book, I like to share that that unconditional love has to start with you to you. Like, do you love the person you are even when your parenting sucks? Do you have compassion and kindness for the version of you that pinched them when you don't believe in physical violence? You know, do you have love for the part of you that feels a little bit like a victim of them? So we've got to really practice this kindness towards ourselves so we have it for them, so they feel it. I mean, there's a whole like they are so highly persist perceptive that they can tell what mood you're in before you've said anything. They're like a a mammal with hyper sensory ability.

SPEAKER_00 13:09

Yeah, the sensitivity is high. I know I'm thinking of a time where I was driving and I had an internal mood shift. Like I literally just randomly driving had this internal mood shift. I know my face didn't change, I didn't say anything, I didn't do anything. And my spicy child looks at me and goes, What's wrong? Are you okay? And I was like, Oh, my poor husband, is this what it's like living with me? Like I was like, just leave me alone. Like, I don't even like feeling my feelings right now, and now you're aware of my feelings. But it, I think there's such a, it feels like a bomb squad. I remember that feeling, especially before I had done a lot of what you were talking about of learning to unshame her and also unshame me because I couldn't unshame her while I was living in the own shame because I would see behaviors in her that weren't allowed in me. Emotions, right? Like I look at anger of like, oh, I'm trying to teach my child to like feel safe expressing their emotions. And then the second they start expressing their emotions, you're like, I don't feel safe. I feel unsafe. I feel afraid, I feel overwhelmed and overstimulated, I need to shut this down in them or I need to shut down. And it just brings up so much. And I think most parenting experts or parent advice, or you get on a Facebook group and moms are trying to like, here's what I did with my kid. It's like, yeah, that might work with one child. Like, I have one of those children too, where it's like, yeah, that stereotypical parenting advice it mostly worked for 80%. Yeah. For yeah. This other child, immediately no. Like, what do you mean? Like, what are you supposed to do when your kindergarten first grader is throwing a fit in target? And it's like, you can't, like, they're not a toddler. You can't bribe them. You can't, like, how do you disagree? Too heavy discipline that. How do you like what are you what are you supposed to do? And I remember like some of the advice you would get was just like, you clearly have not experienced this one because there was no compassionate, not just what we're doing, but like how it feels to be parenting in this way.

SPEAKER_02 15:22

If you're if you're in the in church circles, as you and I are, we're we're Jesus freaks, you get a lot of like, oh honey, have you tried spanking? Like, spoil the child, you know, spare, spare the rod, spoil the child. All this junk that is not bringing anybody closer to God and is a misreading, in my opinion, of the Bible. And so some of the very community that you would want to go to for comfort has a lot of judgment about the fact that your child is not stepping in line.

SPEAKER_00 15:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:55

Why are they wearing a Batman suit to church? Like, what is wrong with you as a mother? Oh, because we would have had an hour-long meltdown and missed church. And so, what does it? I, you know, that's what I love moms of spicy ones because they have evolved so much out of their people pleaser. And it's nobody's fault for being a people pleaser. You're forced into it. Right. Well, your your society keeps telling you as a girl, be nice, you know, be in charge of everyone's emotions. So I get it that we start as people pleasers as we take in all the messages, but the spicy one will knock you out of that where you start to realize, like, so this will be a huge battle. This is really important to them. This dysregulates them. Let me think about how important this actually is. Like, oh wow, this is a rule that, but it's unspoken rule that we dress up for church, but also like I need my spiritual needs met. So, like, it's it makes you do all this mental logistics that then make you realize what really matters and what doesn't. And so you kind of stick out like a sore thumb from the community as well.

SPEAKER_00 17:00

It's like, who told you that? Who told you that rule? Who's the enforcer of that rule? And I know one of the things that massively shifted my motherhood is which hills are we gonna die on and which are we gonna let slide? And there were some times where I was just like, you know what, this is not the hill I'm willing to die on. It just isn't. I have to realize like, what is a molehill and what is a mountain? And doing that, if I like that is one thing that I consistently come back to in parenting of like, is this a values thing, a safety thing, a character thing? And prioritizing connection over that control. That was one of the things you talked about in the book that I just like I was highlighting and underlining of like, don't get me wrong, I'm a parent who corrects, I'm a parent who has boundaries, we have expectations, but like if there's no connection there, none of that works with the spicy child. And my hope and goal is to empower and raise this person to go out into the universe and be a healthy adult, like they have to be able to control themselves. And that's a kind of hard thing to teach them if you always are trying to grasp control.

SPEAKER_02 18:15

Yes. And and let us just like shout out for the fact that modeling is our best parenting tool, our best technique. Our tool can be our body, and they are living and breathing the way we show up. So even when they have a really hard time staying calm, us doing that work, and the more you can make it visible, like I like little theaters of parenting of like, oh, I just got some bad news that my friend can't come over. And I'm feeling like red hot in my chest. And I'm so I'm I'm banging my fists on my chest because it's helping me exhale. I I'm gonna be okay, but I'm I'm I guess I'm not angry. I'm sad. And you just do all that. Took you 30 minutes. You made the thinking visible for your kid who's like, what's she talking about? And they are noticing because I just talked to a spicy one who is 13 a couple days ago, and she said, I don't know why I get so emotional. I want ideas for how I how I stay calm and I just don't flare up. Well, a lot of that is is watching the adults around you do the work of getting to calm because we flare, we all flare up. But what do what do we do? How do we treat our bodies? What do we say to ourselves? How do we move? Moving is a big part of getting to calm. And I talk about this in the book, but you're there's a stress response cycle that gets initiated when our kid is doing something that is disgusting to us or aggravating, and we're we can't meet the demands of society with them, and we get all stressed out, and then we just stew in. It and we don't move our bodies to have all those hormones that are meant to make us run away from a saber-toothed tiger. We let them just sit and stew, and that that's the stress that harms us. So you need to have a movement practice where when you feel so angry, maybe you're just doing three downward dogs and you're doing a hum so your vagus nerve can get activated. But find your calm down recipe, as I call it. And it the weirder the better, because if you can get somebody who's who's having a meltdown to laugh, it's a short circuiting of how long that sometimes can go with a spicy one.

SPEAKER_00 20:37

Yeah, I think that's that's so powerful because I think so many times we're stuck in these cycles where we have all these good ideas of how to parent a child when they're tantruming, how to, or when they have attitude, or even, you know, I think people don't talk enough about like half the time when my kids are overwhelming or triggering to me, because I'm also super sensitive to noise and sound. Half the time they're not doing anything wrong. There's no behavior that needs correction, there's no violence happening, there's no something's happening that I need to intervene. There's nothing to parent. It's literally just my body doesn't like what's happening. I it doesn't feel good, I don't like it. And I think that is so hard for moms to even get to because we're always talked about parenting as this thing that we do. But like what we do in the parenting, it comes from our bodies. It comes from what we are experiencing as an animal. And so we have to consider the reality that like when you have these emotions, when you have this dysregulation happen in your body, the best thing you can do for your kid is slow down and before even responding or reacting, unless it's, you know, emergency situation and in that case, do what you need to do. But it's like take a minute and get a cold drink or a hot drink or do some little jumps, like twerk it out. Like, putting on my loud, yeah, putting on my like loud hip-hop music in my ears, that is how I actually calm down, not just repress the just not just repress it. Because I think what a lot of women are learning, and unfortunately, I think this is being hugely perpetuated with like quote unquote somatics and nervous system regulation, is everyone's talking about being calm. And I'm like, you don't have to always feel calm. And what does it actually look like to regulate your system and noticing, like, oh, there's all this activation? How can I turn that activation into a positive thing, into something helpful for myself or my kid, versus, oh, I'm not calm right now, so I'm just gonna repress the fact that I'm angry because I don't want to yell. And it's like, well, it'll eventually just come out sideways unless we do something with it. So yeah, that's just a change.

SPEAKER_02 22:58

Let's name that like yelling feels amazing.

SPEAKER_01 23:01

It is releases the charge.

Church, Culture, And Ditching People-Pleasing

SPEAKER_02 23:03

Yeah, it is a it is an understandable coping mechanism because it feels great to the body to expel all that energy, to have the reverber reverberations all throughout your your trunk and your head. Yeah, it makes sense why we yell. And thank you for naming that parenting loud children can feel like a threat response in our bodies, and it doesn't end, guys. Like my daughter is now 22, and she was home for the holidays, and she was telling us a story, and she was so excited. And I found myself kind of gripping the knife that I was I was I was cutting up something, and she was across the aisle from me, the the kitchen, what do you call that? The kitchen aisle. The island, yeah. Thank you, the kitchen island, and she's like, Ba-baba. And I said, you know, I I need you to take it down. And my husband thankfully turned and said, I think you need to step away because she's talking in a totally appropriate volume. And I was like, Oh my gosh. And here I am yet again sending this message to my daughter that she's too much, which is like, that's just the generational wound that will reverberate across the the generations. And I've done so much, and I but I was called too much and too loud. Here I am, because my body is needs earplugs while we're still having this conversation. She doesn't need to change a thing. Her her exuberance is wonderful. So yeah, keeps going.

SPEAKER_00 24:33

I I mean, something you just said there, I want to come back to the yelling thing, but I think something that has profoundly helped me, especially now that we're we're nearing, we're in that teenage phase where the child is acting more adults, but they're not an adult, and there starts to be a lot of fear of like certain things. And and then I think of women I know, including myself, who are spicy, who are a lot, who are loud, who can sometimes be emotionally intense. And I think those are my favorite kind of people. Yes, those are my favorite kind of people, is like the women who are a lot, the women who walk in and I'm like, ooh, okay, you're a lot, and I like it. And I think she's becoming that. That like I want, I don't need to dim that. I need to figure out how I can in my own body be in my own self without being intimidated or overpowered or overwhelmed by it. And that takes a lot of self-building, which I think for most moms is something they're lacking, is this sense of self and identity and embodiedness of like, I can feel the difference in the separation between you and me. And it doesn't have to be this power grab or this control thing or a competition. It's just here is you and here is me. There's that separation and that emotional energetic boundary that I think gives us the ability to respond in those intense moments because we're not like over blending with them or being overpowered by them. When is your book coming out?

SPEAKER_02 26:12

Because I'm not kidding. That is so good. And I think you're right. I I love when you figure out like a pattern and it's two parts, isn't it? When you get overwhelmed by your child, like like I'm talking about a happy child who's loud. When that feels overwhelming to you, it is two parts. One is do I have a sense of self where I can be okay with who I am, even if the world right now is rolling their eyes at this kid? You know, even if if the perceived other is judging this kid, can I be okay that we're two different individuals and I don't have to manage their behavior? But then there's that second part I was talking about of like, oh, my ears are ringing and I feel energetically attacked by your happiness. So there are two different there's probably a few more things, but can we just make a recipe and so then I can be ready for the next time?

SPEAKER_00 27:04

Yeah. But I love that you're bringing nuance to this because I think a lot of times the conversation is like, I'm yelling at my kids. What do I do to stop? And it's like, well, but why are you yelling at your kids? Like, what's the experience you're having in your body when you're yelling? So let's use this as an example of like your approach to parenting. Like, how can we show up differently, both in ourselves and the way that we're like showing up to ourselves, and also how we're showing up to our kid in those moments where they're at, you know, they're a ticking time bomb or maybe they're already going off. Like, what's something tangible that parents can do when you're in this moment where you're like, okay, I know how I want to parent, but in this moment, that's gone. Like, I've been joking lately of like we were all really good parents before we had kids. Like, I was such a good mom before I had the kids. Like, it's such a different experience to be doing it than like it is in your head.

SPEAKER_02 27:59

Yes. And I think you're making a great point that there's like, how do you want to parent before and after the meltdown? But how do you that's different than what you want to do during the meltdown?

SPEAKER_00 28:11

Yeah.

Modeling Regulation And Stress Cycles

SPEAKER_02 28:11

Because like what we were just talking about is that that awareness and that self-reflection that is about how you are before, because hopefully you're staving off the meltdown, but not if you have a spicy one, because some of them just need to have a meltdown a couple times a day. Like let it out. Yeah, like a just let it out scrolling. Yes. I like to think about, and there's there's a cheat sheet in my book, a two-page cheat sheet on surviving a meltdown. And I think it's really important to think about casting a conscious pause. And I almost think of this now that I'm post-evangelical, I can be a little more witchy about it. I like, it's like almost a spell that you're putting around the two of you where you're gonna pause. There's no new information that you're going to give your child because they cannot receive it at this point. So a lot of times we think, what should I say? What do I? It's like, don't worry about it. They're having their own experience right now, separate from you. So now it's about cultivating your inner calm and your exterior that looks unaffected. And this is a little bit of fake it till you make it, where instead of looking like, oh, what are they doing? Not not here, not now, or or disgust, or oh, I mean it's your mom phase. Yeah, don't get your inner teenager be rolling her eyes at this kid. Have an unaffected exterior, get almost like placid, and like, oh, okay, this is where we're going. I'm not gonna fight this. This just is. And connect with your own heart space for a minute. Like put your hand on your heart and just notice the sensations in your body. Likely the two of you are so connected that you're vibrating a little bit too. And just go ahead and start doing some self-mothering. And maybe the customer service levels will drop. Like you're not over there going, Are you okay? or do you need a hug? You're just settle down and check in with you first. There's two people in this party, and you're most responsible for you. Do some long exhales rather than a bunch of inhales that activate you. And then you want to call in your highest self. Like, what is the version of you that you want to show up to this meltdown? Do you want it to be, you know, chicken little screaming the sky is falling, or do you want it to be Michelle Obama with the strongest arms anyone's ever seen? Like you and you also want to ask yourself this is this really helps me. When they're freaking out and you're starting to feel your biometrics rising, ask yourself, who is upset here? And it's just take a moment to realize, oh, they're upset. I actually don't have to be upset. And there's like some like equation in our head that we think we're both upset, but we're not. As you said, we're two separate people, and we can have a sense of self of I can be okay when they are not. And in fact, that would be the highest good in this situation, that I stay okay and grounded and open-handed with a strong back. This just this just is. I don't know, what what are you getting from that?

SPEAKER_00 31:22

I mean, I love that because I think a lot of us rush into what do we do? But anything you do from that state is going, like, especially when you're activated and either you're activated towards and against them, or you're activated like you're shutting down, you're fawning, you're bribing. Any action that comes from your dysregulation, probably not something that you choose. A lot of times that's where our bad patterns or habits come in play. And so I'm hearing you say, like, you're taking away the urgency, you're noticing, like, oh, what's actually happening right now is that I'm a grown-ass adult who is okay. And this toddler or this teenager, they're upset. And sometimes I'll be like, I'm not upset about this. They're upset about this. And they're it, I don't have to fix or stop them from being upset. But what's important first is for me to go, I'm not upset about this. And I actually had I actually had a thing not even that long ago where then they got upset that I was not matching their level of upset. Oh, yeah, that's a thing. That that was a whole thing of like, because I think, you know, I can tend to mirror. I'm such an empath. I'm such like a I can start reacting to other people's emotions without even realizing I'm doing it, right? Like I can start to feel angry because my husband had a bad day at work and I like he's not even angry at me. He's, you know, he's just in a bad mood. And all of a sudden I'm like, why am I in a bad mood? I'm having a great day. And I think what you just shared, I think is so important because I think I think a lot of this generation of mothers, a lot of, I would say, like my peers, my people my age who are parenting, I think we've tried so hard to be compassionate and caring and empathetic and emotionally mature and available and connected that I think we've kind of gone overdoing it. We kind of, we kind of went over, overboard. And it doesn't serve our kids and it doesn't serve us because then it puts our kids in the center of our universe. And then they have to be okay for us to be okay. And I work with a lot of women who are still trying to figure out their relationships to their mothers. So the adult women I work with, their mothers never had a sense of okayness or self or sturdiness or groundedness outside of their children. And they are some of the hardest, most heartbreaking mothers to have for these adult women because they didn't get that as a kid and they're still not getting it as an adult. And it's like it's so important to witness that healthy, safe, mature disconnection, which I think feels foreign. Like for me, it can often feel wrong to think, oh, it's healthy for me to disconnect is the wrong word.

SPEAKER_02 34:12

To dispassionate witness is what I would call it. Like you're you're you don't have to be like clicked into it. You're not a velcro to that experience.

SPEAKER_00 34:24

We need to be unblended from our kids. Like, I I want to connect to them, but I can't do that unless I have a sense of self because otherwise they don't have another regulation to look to. And I think this is hard with modern motherhood because usually we'd have other adults around and we could kind of co-regulate with that adult. You know, it's like when your kid's throwing a fit and your best friend is there, it's usually not as activating because you have another adult seeing this kid crying about the toast being toasted and they didn't want it toasted, but they told you to toast it. You have a friend who's sitting there going, It's them who's crazy, you're okay. Not out loud. But you know, it's like that's a different experience.

SPEAKER_02 35:04

But unless it's a judgy friend, and then you're like, You gotta stop this right now. Like, it makes you worse, you know.

SPEAKER_00 35:12

That's a good point. I think I'm around such good women these days that like I do forget that, like, yeah, there's those people too, or your parents or your in-laws who like there's that response to. But I think what you shared is so powerful because it puts us back in a position of leadership where we're not having to fix anything out of urgency, we're coming back to a connected state and presence.

SPEAKER_02 35:37

Like I'm hearing you say, like, it's presence, yeah, and it's a non-anxious presence. Yeah. So we can allow, we can be okay when they are not, when they are, you know, vibrating and bouncing off the and there's a whole chapter in my book on what to do, and it's a violent tantrum or meltdown, because if you have a spicy one, they don't necessarily go inward and get sad and and get taken care of with a hug. They don't want you to physically touch them. They are, they will kick, they will throw something. And so that's a whole nother level of being okay in your body and not letting fear drive the bus because they can sense that. Like they don't want to be somebody who scares you.

Calm In The Storm: The Conscious Pause

SPEAKER_00 36:22

And I'm I love that you talk about that in the book because I don't think there's a lot of other parenting books, even ones that you know, and this isn't, I don't there's so many things in your book that I've never heard anyone else talk about. Such as or give language to, like what you're talking about, like these these kids who like we're not talking about a kid who, like, oh, I need to go get some diagnosis and treatment, like there's really something going wrong here. And that's not a bad thing. We we sometimes need professional help, we sometimes need diagnoses, we sometimes need medication. But it's like I think of my experiences I had and how lonely and broken I felt when like, is your kid doing this? Like, no, my kid would never like you're getting these responses from people that like make it sound like this is unusual and never happened or it's foreign, and you're not one, you're not getting any connection, so you feel lonely, you feel shame. And if you Google it, they tell you you should call the police. And like terrifying things when it's like, okay, well, this is kind of within the range of like it's just normal, but it's just a spicier normal. Not optimal, but it is normal. Not easy. And like you give language for that and tools for that. And it's like that was something like I didn't have when my kids were little of like, you're okay, your kid's gonna be okay. There, there's this compassionate, you're okay, and also, okay, but here's what you do with that, because I'm not just gonna leave you there. I'm not just gonna be like, shh, you're okay, the kid's fine. Okay, that doesn't help me deal with it. I I think there's several, like, there's so many things in your book that I'm like, no one's ever given, and the way you give language to it, I was like having all of these deep breaths of like, oh, I finally like understand myself and like even just my kid a little bit better. And it's I just I love this book and I love you, and I love the work you do in the world. If you haven't noticed. Oh, I'm feeling pretty good right now. I can run through a brick wall. Oh, good. You should. Well, what was that thing you you told me the other day of when someone names or voices something about you? You had a word for it. I had never heard of it.

SPEAKER_02 38:43

It's the opposite of rejection dysphoria, which a lot of neurodivergent folks have, where you see rejection where it isn't, and you have this outsized reaction. And this was recognizion euphoria. When somebody names something about you and you're like, that is true about me, and you're helping me know myself better, and you get me, and it just feels amazing.

SPEAKER_00 39:06

It feels amazing. And I think that's what you're doing for parents. And I think what's cool too, you're doing that for mothers, but you're also doing that for mothers with their kids. You are naming what is beautiful and powerful about spicy kids, and I think that's so important because it's like growing up feeling like you're wrong or broken or there's something wrong with you. I mean, I can think of like my neuro spiciness where like I thought I was just dramatic. I thought I was just high maintenance and annoying. And, you know, these aren't necessarily I had really loving parents who didn't they I don't remember them saying mean or rude things. It was this feeling that I had of like, I'm different. I'm building. You get enough friends to roll their eyes or yeah. I'm sure. Like I know I had those experiences, but like to me, they're not very cognitive, which part of that is, you know, I don't have tons of memories. Thanks, trauma. But Moving on from that.

SPEAKER_02 40:02

Well, wait, time out because what's amazing is like those things, like, oh, you're a lot, you're dramatic, they ended up being your superpower. I mean, uh people overuse that, like, oh, ADHD is my superpower, but really these strong skills and pre pre pred predicol, what's the word I'm looking for? Not predispositions. Yeah. These predispositions you have make you this like amazing coach who can notice like the change in a shoulder and a twitch of a lip and name something and have this intuition. And if you didn't have this ultra-sensitive dramatic like antenna, you couldn't be a world changer and a healer like you are. So it's these these spicy ones. It seems so hard to parent this version, but they're gonna be amazing an adult. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:58

And I think that's one thing that I love about your approach is it's it's now focused. Like it's it's not just good feelings and like, oh, you're doing a great job. Well, meanwhile, I feel like I'm drowning. You know, because I I feel like I've had that experience where I'm like, I'm treading water and someone's like, you're doing great, sweetie. And it's like, that doesn't help. Like, thank you. Thank you. Because I think sometimes when we're in shame, we need actual someone witnessing us and feeling less lonely. But I think for a lot of women, I know for me, even now, like when I'm struggling with someone, yes, sometimes I need someone to tell me I'm doing a good job, but like actually mean it and notice the way I'm doing a good job. But I also need someone to come in and say, okay, here's what you can do about that. Yeah. Start kicking your legs. Yeah. Start Yeah. Here's how to swim. Here's how to swim. I'm gonna like, I'm gonna throw you a buoy, but I'm also gonna teach you how to swim. I'm also gonna teach you, like, okay, when you're taking on water, here's how to, here's how to keep going.

SPEAKER_02 42:04

I think we've squeezed the the marrow out of this metaphor. Well done.

SPEAKER_00 42:08

Never. I could, I could, I could metaphor all day.

SPEAKER_02 42:12

Well, that's also why you like my writing, because I love a good metaphor for explaining something that head on just sounds clinical and doesn't make sense.

SPEAKER_00 42:21

Do you have a favorite metaphor in the book?

Boundaries, Playfulness, And Power Shifts

SPEAKER_02 42:23

Yes. I want what's your favorite one? Any listener who's here to find their inner royalty, the queen who lifts her, whose nose is like a little bit higher than the horizon, whose arms are open and hands are open, who is a couple notches taller and who has a like a Julie Andrews kind of smile on her and is unflappable. Like when you can find in your body who your inner royalty, you can handle so much more. It's like a it's it's like any position that you find that you practice, whether it's jujitsu or yoga, and it's it's easier to get in it when you need it. And so I think the metaphor of being sovereign and being built for such a time as this, that queenliness really helps somebody who feels meek and victim-like and overwhelmed.

SPEAKER_00 43:22

I mean, even as you were saying it, I was like, oh, you found it. Did you notice my posture feeling better? I could, I found it and I felt it. And I'm thinking of a moment, I was like, we were at a cabin and we had we were with family who we love and adore, but like my kids are also like they just you reach your limit with people sometimes, and it doesn't matter what someone's doing, you're just done. My kids were done, but they were like, they were past done. We were like level red, everybody, them, and they were just complaining and being mean and awful, and I matched their energy unintentionally. So now I'm being mean and I'm just barking out commands and nobody's listening, and they're not being helpful, and do this. And I like mid, I was like, I like saw myself. I had an out-of-body like this is working really well, Becca. Really effective. This is just, and and I was like, okay, I don't have the ability to be calm right now. Like, there's just there's too much energy and activation in the room. Like kindergarten teacher is not gonna work right now. And I just started like sing yelling, like not yelling, but like loudly singing in a weird accent. Yes, and beating my son with a pillow. Like I literally just because we were trying to make the beds or like strip the beds, and like in a playful way, not a mean way. Yes, yes, yes. And it immediately shifted the energy. And I started getting them in this playful, fun mood, but I had to fake it till I make it. Because when I started, I did not feel playful. I felt like I was about to lose my ever-loving mind. And I was just like, I was done, they were done. But that little shift of like, I had to almost get into a character of like, but eventually, like it actually ended up being really fun and funny. But I forget that that's an option sometimes. I forget that that's available to me. And it's like also that was much more effective parenting.

SPEAKER_02 45:14

Play is the language of children, and many of us adults don't know it. We don't speak it fluently. It wasn't okay when we were growing up. And yes, I always want people to try play. I literally give examples of what that could be in the book because I don't think we all have a lived experience of play. And it's just amazing when an adult drops the power over and instead makes you laugh. Or, I mean, we can head off some serious um mishaps with a little humor.

SPEAKER_00 45:44

Yeah, I think I think I try to take myself a little too seriously sometimes as a parent. I have a tendency to over-parent in a way that's just not helpful for them and not helpful for me. And I forget that like I'm allowed to have fun. I don't have to take things too serious all the time, even when it's a serious matter.

SPEAKER_02 46:04

And our lot, like our body changes their experience of us when we cut, like just the other day, I was we were getting the house ready for a lot of people coming, and I went to my son, and unconsciously, I was like, um, hey, I'm gonna need and I was holding my breath, and he goes, I can't talk to you when your eyebrows are that high. And I was like, Oh, damn, like he's right. I'm not I'm I'm not ready for public consumption right now. Like, I need to go soften, settle down a moment before I'm gonna be able to engage anybody else in helping me.

SPEAKER_00 46:37

The eyebrows, my face. It's always in my face. I just yeah, it's always all over my face. I am just I can't wait to hold the physical copy of your book and like highlight and underline. Like it's not like I had the advanced copy, which is wonderful, and I've loved reading it, but I'm just like so excited to have the real thing in my hand. Do you have the audiobook coming too?

SPEAKER_02 47:01

Yes, and I got to read it, and it was such a neat experience because there's a lot of voices in it, like a lot of examples of what to say, and I would change my voice for everyone. It was me pretending to be a voiceover actress, so that was fun.

SPEAKER_00 47:15

That is fun because you are fun.

SPEAKER_02 47:18

Thank you. And if you have, when you get the um hard copy, if you can take the cover off, underneath it is a list of 35 euphemisms for the spicy one that I want you to read to your child. And they're just all my favorite words for describing this countercultural kid that are all positive.

SPEAKER_00 47:39

I love that so much. I love it so much. So, you guys, obviously, you need to buy the book. If you're local, we're doing a book club. If you're local to northern Colorado, we're doing a book club. Did I tell you this? You're I was like, wait, because I want to call in. I want to do a drive-by Zoom book club where I come on for 15 minutes. I could put you on the screen even. Let's do it. That'd be so fun. But we're doing a book club because I was like, we just need to get all of these moms together and talk about it, talk about the experience of reading it, talk about some of the questions. I just, I love this book. I can't wait until it's out in the world. Any last things that you would say about the book or about the conversation? Like any loops that feel open.

Inner Royalty: Becoming The Steady Leader

SPEAKER_02 48:28

Well, I think we've talked about that you need to be the calmest person in the room. And I think we've made it clear that that's really hard. But there are things you can do that are not common sense. It's okay, I guess. I just want to say it's okay if you don't know how to get to calm yet. And and we've named here, you don't need to stay calm, but like a like a dipping kind of like a wave, you need to know how to come back to calm. And then we didn't talk about repair, which we're not gonna always be calm. And we are gonna yell, and we are gonna say things we wish we hadn't, and we are gonna just do a bunch of things while we're walking through the world as the person in charge of this kid. And so repair gets to be a beautiful way to create real intimacy. And that's that's there's a whole chapter on boundaries and repair. And just I think about like my closest friends are usually people where we've had some kind of misunderstanding and or argument, and we've actually stuck around to talk through it. So I'm waiting, Rebecca, to piss you off so that we can actually have one of those repair moments, and then I'll feel like you really are a bestie.

SPEAKER_00 49:43

Why are you assuming you'll piss me off? I'm pretty sure I'll piss you off with my just kidding. No, I I think you're right though. I think it repair builds intimacy and connection. And I really think repair builds trust because you're acknowledging to the other person, I messed up. I did something that hurt you, whether that was my intent or whether that was just the impact. I'm constantly talking to my kids of like, I didn't mean to hurt you, but I still hurt you. Like it doesn't matter, it doesn't matter that I had the best intentions. What I did impacted you. And I'm still sorry. Like I'm, and how do I make it right and like truly take action on that? I think those repair moments can build even deeper intimacy and connection and trust than if we don't have any or we pretend that we don't have any and sweep it under the rug. I will say that is one of the biggest things that I hear from adult mothers about their mothers is that they had mothers who just swept everything under the rug and we didn't talk about the hard stuff, and nobody named it for the kid. Nobody gave the kid the language of here's the hard thing and here's how we work through it. It was just like, what hard things? We're all good here. We're all it was all either toxic and awful or everything's good, everything's happy. We're this pretty happy family where nothing bad happens, and it's like that didn't work either, you know?

SPEAKER_02 50:59

Yes. I mean, yeah.

unknown 51:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 51:02

I have it, I have a night, many nights, I'm sure, but I have a night in mind where it just got crazy in my home and I was young and screaming and and then no one ever talked about it again. And and I would love to be able to sit down, little Mary, and say, okay, so here's what happened, and it wasn't your fault. And but alas, instead I shall write a book and drag my family through it.

SPEAKER_00 51:29

That's the best. I just love this. Thank you for being on the podcast today. It was just so great to have you back and to have this conversation. And again, thank you for the work you do in the world for your book, your Instagram. Your Instagram is just my favorite. I just, I'm constantly laughing or just a breath of fresh air. It's just the best. So thank you for being here. So, where is the best place to get this book? Amazon, on your website, where do we get it, especially since it's in pre-order still?

SPEAKER_02 51:59

Girl, that's up to you. Wherever books are sold, but if you do pre-order it before February 10th, it comes with all these goodies that you would register for that on my website. And the goodies are a the spicy one affirmation masterclass where you learn what a spicy one needs to hear and how to deliver that. And you also get meltdown meditations for moms for that listening to after things have gone really sour. And then you get the entire audio book read by me for free. So pre-order it before February 10th, and then go to my website, maryvaneffen.com, and let me know you pre-ordered it with the receipt and everything, and then you get access to those goodies.

SPEAKER_00 52:40

I love it. Is your is the spicy one quiz online too? I know it's in the book. Is that on your website somewhere?

SPEAKER_02 52:47

Yes, it is.

SPEAKER_00 52:48

Okay. I love it. I was like, I love it in the book, but I was like, I want to take it digitally. I just I love a good digital quiz, you know? Tell me which Harry Potter house I am. Sort me.

SPEAKER_02 52:58

And the digital quiz actually figures out, are you a spicy one too? So I'd be interested in you taking that quiz.

SPEAKER_00 53:05

I took, I did the quiz in the book for me, and it was like clearly I'm very spicy. I love that. That's why I love you. I love it too. Okay. I love this so much. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you guys for being here. Thank you for listening. If you loved this episode, take a minute, leave a review, send me or Mary a comment on Instagram, like share it on Instagram, share it with your friends. We wanna we wanna help all the moms. Let's mom all the moms. Moms need momming. We need mothers. And I think I think you're a really good person to mother mothers in a beautiful way. So thank you. Right back at you. Thanks, Rebecca.