Can I Get a Refill?

From People Pleasing to Self-Trust: Choosing 'What’s Strong' Over 'What’s Wrong' with Rosemary Gattuso 🧠

• Steph Bruno-Newton • Season 3 • Episode 65

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Why do so many capable, thoughtful women find themselves overthinking, over-giving and constantly putting others first?

In this episode, I sit down with family mediator and author of It’s Not You, It’s Me, Rosemary Gattuso, to explore the deeper patterns behind people pleasing - and how to break free from them without becoming hardened or disconnected.

We discuss:

  • Why overthinking isn’t a flaw — it can be a strength
  • The hidden cost of chronic people pleasing
  • How to shift from self-criticism to self-trust
  • The transformative mindset of focusing on “what’s strong over what’s wrong”
  • Practical ways to respond rather than react in relationships

This is a grounded, empowering conversation about self-awareness, boundaries and reclaiming your voice — without abandoning your empathy.

Have a listen to our chat, or watch the full video on YouTube here.

Thanks for tuning in today to The Can I Get a Refill? Podcast, and be sure to jump on my website (below) to download a free 33 page eBook on 7 Steps to Protect Your Energy & Fill Up Your Cup. 

You cannot pour from an empty cup, so I’ve designed a guide to help you take care of yourself, in order to uplevel your life. Download it today and make yourself a priority in 2026!

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SPEAKER_02

I would like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land on which this episode is being recorded and pay my respects to elders past, present, and emerging. I extend that respect to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples today.

SPEAKER_03

Jumping in here to talk directly to my Sydney friends about one of my absolute favourite cafes, Pilgrims Crenola. Now located in their gorgeous new location opposite South Crenella Park, with expanded indoor and outdoor seating, including pet-friendly tables out front, and delicious food, juice, and coffee. The menu is full of wholesome, vegger-friendly eats that feel both nostalgic and nourishing. Expect Brecke wraps, vibrant salads, smoothies, fresh juices, and some of the best plant-based sandwiches going. I strongly recommend the corn fritters and the chai shake, which is definitely big enough for two. Check them out on Insta and be sure to visit when you're next in Cornella. Welcome to Can I Get a Refill? A podcast for ambitious women who are tired of corn from an empty cup that still want to grow, level, and build a life that's proud of. Through a mix of comforting solo episodes and inspiring conversations with industry professionals, authors, wellness experts, and entrepreneurs, we talk about what it really looks like to refill your cup while up-leveling your life. Topics include mental, emotional, and physical wellness, hormonal health, manifestation, career and finance, boundaries, self-trust, and redefining success on your own terms. Hosted by me, Steph Bruno Newton, each weekly episode is designed to motivate, ground, and empower you to take care of your needs and go after the life you actually want. Pour yourself a cup, take a breath, and let's refill it together. If you've ever found yourself saying yes when you meant no, replaying conversations in your head, or questioning your instincts in relationships, then this episode is for you. Today I'm joined by Family Mediator, trauma-informed speaker, and author Rosemary Gattuso, as we explore the journey from people-pleasing to self-trust. We talk about why overthinking isn't necessarily a weakness and how focusing on what's wrong keeps us stuck, and the powerful mindset shift from what's wrong to what's strong. This conversation is about reclaiming your voice, honouring your strengths, and learning to trust yourself again. Thanks for tuning in today to the Can I Get a Refill Podcast. As always, be sure to jump on my website, www.cannagetareefill podcast.com.au, linked in the show notes to download your free 33-page ebook on seven steps to protect your energy and fill up your cup. As I always say, you cannot pour from an empty cup, so I've designed a guide to help you take care of yourself in order to up level your life. Download it today and make yourself a priority in 2026. Okay, let's jump in. Hello, my cup fillers, and welcome back to the Can I get a refill podcast. As just promised, we're joined today by Rosemary Gutusso. Rosemary, welcome to the podcast.

SPEAKER_01

Thanks, Stephanie. It's great to be here. I've been looking forward to this chat.

SPEAKER_03

I've really been looking forward to it as well. I've just finished a book for those watching on YouTube. It's not you, it's me. It's such a wonderful book, and I I've handwritten a few notes that I want to talk about throughout the show because I thought it was really wonderful. But um, for those who are aware, I've got construction in my building for the next couple of months. So we're recording this on a Sunday, which feels a bit weird, but I really appreciate you jumping on on a family day to record with me.

SPEAKER_01

Thank you. No, it's my pleasure.

SPEAKER_03

We'll we'll jump into it. I have so many questions I want to ask, but why don't you just start by telling us a little bit about yourself or you know how you came to write this wonderful book?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, well, I I guess writing it was a very slow process and a mixture of the many different layers of my life. It's and I guess it's been over 10 years that I always wanted to write a book, but I never thought it would be a self-help book. Uh and and and never thought in my wildest dreams that it would be based on my work as a mediator. So because I was collecting stories, but it they were always about uh a woman who had sort of repeat patterns in her life, and so that became the story. Um, but I also noticed as I started working as a mediator, these trends in the way people manage adversity. So I blended these two components, the story and the trends that I was seeing, and wrote a book that was a story about the you know, a chronic overthinker whose name was Stella, and then added a self-help chapter at the end that really reflected on her challenges and and her personal growth story as well.

SPEAKER_00

Yes.

SPEAKER_01

And I I realized early on that uh my book couldn't exist as a self-help and uh a story, so I turned the last chapter uh into the book, which is you know, based on my observations as a mediator on the way that people manage adversity using a strengths-based and trauma-informed lens.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, and they're wonderful observations, and I can't imagine anyone more well aversed in doing in making those observations. And what I was just saying to you off here, what I loved most was the recurring line throughout the book on focusing what's strong, uh rather over what's wrong. And I was just saying, anyone I've had a problem with in my life that I find drains me of energy are the people who focus on what's wrong. And I know, you know, day to day, one day I'll be having it, it depends where I am in my cycle, but one day I'll really focus on what's strong, and I'm so full of gratitude, and more and more good comes to me. And then if I'm just having one of those days, I am focusing what on what's wrong. So it's about that shift of mindset. It can really change the whole trajectory of your life and the environment around you, can't it?

SPEAKER_01

It really can. And once you hear it, it's hard to forget it and you can see it everywhere. And then it'll be it'll fluctuate as well because some days it'll be easier to apply the the what's strong lens, or even just apply the what's strong lens to your reflecting on uh the challenges and the times that you you went down the path of what's wrong. Even that can be changing.

SPEAKER_03

Well, those people who focus on what's wrong, I used to get so, so, so frustrated, and I still do, but I've been able to uh take a step back and reflect on it with a bit more compassion, thinking they might not know this. They might not have been introduced to these sort of tools in their toolkit that that point out the behavior to them. It might just be so familiar and what they grew up seeing in their home that to them that's just living, just looking at what's wrong. Have you found that? That people are just doing repeating what's familiar.

SPEAKER_01

That's right. Because if you and if you grow up in a household where you have one parent who's um quite judgmental or critical, or even a perfectionist, you know, it doesn't have to be that that obvious, then whether or not it's direct or by implication, a child will grow up quite sensitive to the you know, what's wrong in a situation or the lacking or where there needs to be improvement. And if that child is comes under the category of being a highly sensitive person, then it's gonna carry more weight with them.

SPEAKER_03

Yes, absolutely. And I wonder that inner child work is so powerful because all of these teachings are all implemented in our brains when we're little, aren't they? So it's about going back to that place. Um, there's a quote I want to uh read out a direct quote from your book. Our instincts have naturally evolved to be more sensitive to fear and pain than to pleasure and reward, which makes so much sense, but that's sad, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01

It's quite a sad observation. And if you you think about it when we have an experience, even if it's something pleasant, attending an event or a function, when we reflect on it, we'll reflect on the things that didn't go so well. And it might be only a tiny thing. Yes, but you know, and I guess as coming from an Italian background and being a weekend, I just keep thinking of, you know, you go to a wedding and everything's beautiful, and you know, you connect with people, you dance, you have fun, and all that, but then you think, oh, the food wasn't that good, or there wasn't a lot.

SPEAKER_03

I laughed so hard when you first started talking because I remembered my wedding. I didn't want to do a big wedding. I it was it's out of my comfort zone. But if I was a guest, I would have really enjoyed the wedding. It was very pretty, it was beautiful. And I remember saying to the people who ran it, there was a it was pouring rain. I was like, there was a big orange mop. And all I can see in the video is it's just big fat orange mop in the background. But at the time it's dark, you're on so much champagne, I didn't notice it. But all I could see, and I focused on the freaking mop instead of the fact that everyone was smiling, everyone was dancing, everyone was having a wonderful time. But I focused on that and that the MC didn't announce certain things, but I did. And why? Because I'm a perfectionist. And I and I, you know, I wanted it to be perfect, and I wanted, you know, it doesn't matter. And that's um part of my journey, especially since becoming a mum, is uh allowing the mess and allowing sort of messy things and not perfect things because that's the fun. Like I'm finding that's where the fun is, and my house looks like shit compared to how it used to look. But I'm enjoying life more, allowing things to not be perfect.

SPEAKER_01

Yes. And and I would, I guess, hypothesize that it doesn't feel as heavy.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Because you know, I take my son to the library for rhyme time. It's like that free thing where they they read out stories and do songs. And the the librarian brings around a shaker for all the kids. And my son, for a few of the classes, was collecting everyone's shakers before they'd finished and putting them back in the box. And she looked at me and I went, I really should stop tidying up around him so much.

SPEAKER_02

Obviously, fun.

SPEAKER_03

And he's singing that normal behavior is keeping things neat and tidy instead of fun. That stopped me in my tracks because you know, he doesn't even speak full sentences yet, but that's his observation of me. So I was like, wow, I don't want anyone thinking of me as the very neat person. I want to be fun. You know, like my husband's fun. He'll grow up thinking fun parent, neat parent. So yeah, it's really interesting. Kids are uh hold up a really good mirror to you, don't they? They do.

SPEAKER_01

And it just goes to show how much they absorb and observe regardless of their development and where they're at.

SPEAKER_03

Hey, listen, while we're on the topic, I haven't even gotten into the questions I've laid out for you, but I do want to bring that up. You you had something really wonderful in your book that I've been observing for years with people around me. I, you know, I've known people in the past who have sort of stayed in marriages because they say for the sake of the kids, but they might hate each other, the parents and be in separate bedrooms or whatever. And you you talk about the impact on the child of uh the child of parents who argue with each other. So what the the children are witnessing, can you just touch on that a little bit and what sort of impact uh it has on kids when parents are not not physical with each other because that's very, very dangerous, but even just those narky comments with each other.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. And it's it's less about those comments and those interactions and more about whether or not it's resolved respectfully or how it's resolved. Yes. Because conflict is a normal part of being in relationships, it's more about how we manage it and what messages that's giving to the young ones observing, you know, about what's normal when in relationships. How to be a mum, how to be a dad, how to be a parent, how to be uh, how to exist, you know, as a couple. And so that's where, you know, we're learning from our experience and also learning not just about how to interact with others when we do have our own relationships, but also how we should respond to our environment. Because everything that we do, our behavior, is really a reflection of our early experience, because our behavior is really an adaptation to that experience. So if we're learning that one of our parents who's who we rely on completely for our survival, needs to be pleased all the time. Then we learn from a young age to put aside our own needs to focus on the needs of another.

SPEAKER_03

Is it because it's uncomfortable if you don't, because uh that parent will make the house hell? And to for you to feel safe and happy, you you feel that you need to please that parent and do what makes them happy.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. And safety is really the key word because for our nervous system, we're either unsafe or safe. And so anything that makes us feel unsafe, which is going are going to be interactions that focus on what's wrong, then we will automatically want to return to safety. And if return to safety means putting our needs aside and pleasing and doing and offering and walking on eggshells, then that's what we will do.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, I mean, you're setting them up for failure as an adult, aren't you, if that's the sort of thing they're growing up with. And what sort of implications would an example like that have? So say there's a young boy who feels like he has to please his mum and keep him happy, keep her happy all the time. Could he then have an adult romantic relationship where he's a bit of a doormat and trying to make his partner happy all the time and neglecting his own needs?

SPEAKER_01

Look, it can be, but could also go the other way. And I, you know, I also worked as uh a couple's counselor. And so I I saw, you know, one specific example many years ago where a client said, you know, that one of their grandparents was really a a doormat, you know, in in the relationship, and they didn't want to be like that. And so they were doing the exact opposite. Yes.

SPEAKER_03

I I watch a lot of true crime docos on Netflix and stuff, and I find that's a very common thread with men who are abusive towards women, whether it be physically, sexually, or whatever. Sometimes many times it's that they had an issue with their mother and it's like they're punishing, and they might even choose women who looked like their mother. So do you think that's part of it?

SPEAKER_01

Like, it definitely could be, because if we don't want to repeat the patterns that we saw in our development and in our early experience, then we'll do the opposite. We'll we'll try to prevent that from happening.

SPEAKER_03

Got you. Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_01

I mean we're very simple.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, and what you're saying is so everyone's gonna have arguments, everyone's gonna have conflict. It's more about healthy, respectable conflict resolution, right? That's the good that's the best example you can set for your kids.

SPEAKER_01

That's right. And I always think of historically, uh, you know, before there was no fault divorce. Now we have no fault divorce, so you don't have to prove why you want to get separated, why you want to divorce. And there's also family relationship centres all over Australia that offer government-funded mediation so that parents do have some support in working out their parenting arrangements. Whereas before this was all in place, you just had to go to court. And even like, say, if we look at, and you have to prove why you wanted a divorce, but even after no fault divorce came in, you still had to go to court. And so there's, you know, generations, you know, one or two generations of children who are now adults in their own um scenarios who were essentially cut off from their their father normally, it would be, because in you know, 70s, 80s, and even early 90s scenario was the kids would generally stay with mum, and mum would be the primary carer. And there because there wasn't a system, and there wasn't a system because I guess it wasn't seen as necessary at the time, I don't know. So then there's just no no relationship, and also then how does that impact a child with their own relationships?

SPEAKER_03

Yes, you know, yeah, and their dad who could be a wonderful dad, how's that impact him? Yeah, it's it's it's so complicated about adding all the legalities into it when you're already going through such an emotional thing, it's it's really hard, I feel, for anyone going through that. Um, I'll jump in and ask, why do you think so? I've been wanting since I started this podcast two years ago to talk about people pleasing. So, why do you think so many of us are overthinkers and people pleasers? And is there a common childhood experience or relationship that might trigger this?

SPEAKER_01

I think the the it really stems from having that not good enough lens of themselves. Because when you don't believe that you're good enough or that you need to improve, you might not use that language, but it's always, I have to do better, I have to study, or I have to be like someone else, then the starting point is also is always in deficit. And I think what happens is when we have that view of ourselves, then we gravitate towards others around us who have that same view of us, who also see us through deficit. So then that might put us in. Because it's familiar. It's it's familiar, and also if if we don't believe in ourselves, how can we expect others to?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And then if we don't believe in ourselves, we show that in our thoughts, feelings, and actions. And that will also be shown in the people, you know, even our friendship circles, because they they will also be on board, you know, not always, but just you know, generally. That's and and and we only realize when we have a falling out with friends, because after years and years and years, suddenly things have changed and it just feels so uncomfortable, and you can't take the judgment that you're constantly getting. It's because you've changed, you've changed your view of yourself, but they haven't changed their view of you.

SPEAKER_03

Absolutely. No, that makes so much sense. And that can that can be hard. Breakups with friends can be hard, but those close relationships really impact your life. And I'm always talking about regularly assessing your relationships in your life. But I have gone through things like that with judgments, and and for a long time you just put up with it, it feels normal. And then all of a sudden, when you work on yourself, you're like, oh, I'm so you can't even pinpoint, but you feel so uncomfortable in their presence, even if they don't say anything. It's so interesting, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and that it could be after a 20-year friendship where suddenly it's like, I cannot take this, I need to get out.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. All right, well, how can someone stop being a people pleaser? What are the sort of things that you would work through?

SPEAKER_01

Well, if then being a people pleaser is a reflection of how we feel about ourselves, then it's about how can we boost our self-confidence, our ability to believe in ourselves and our our sense of self, our self-esteem, however you want to call it, whatever you want to call it. And so if we stay with the what's wrong and the what's strong category, then interactions that focus on what's wrong will take away from our sense of self and our ability to believe in ourselves, whereas interactions that focus on what's strong will build on our sense of self and our ability to believe in ourselves. So we have interactions with ourselves all the time. Sometimes they focus on what's wrong, sometimes they focus on what's strong. But if we can have more interactions that focus on what's strong in ourselves, that will help us build up our sense of self. Then there's also interactions we have with others, where if we can, you know, at least have some interactions with others that do focus on what's strong, then that's also going to help us believe in ourselves. And, you know, I talk about this trivial example of an interaction that focuses on what's strong for me, and it's making a to-do list, you know, because I make a to-do list and I write everything down and I tick it off, and I feel good. It makes me feel productive that I've achieved something. And then even if I didn't do what was on the list, I'll just put it on for tomorrow and I'll go through it again. And so I realized it was more about how it makes me feel rather than the list, because it's giving me evidence of my strengths and why I should believe in myself. So there's, and everyone will have their own um habit or routine that can help build on their strengths or show them their strengths. That's you know, just one that really resonates with me.

SPEAKER_03

It can look different for everyone. That's true. But what you talk about with the relationships is so true. Because I'm always harping on about the relationship with the self. That I think that's where you start. That's the foundation before you can build those healthy relationships with others. But you know, the stat the statistics are showing how much of an impact a community has on you. Like even something like having a certain amount of hugs per day can lengthen your life. So it's very important to have those healthy relationships with others. But that's why picking your tribe is so crucial and having people around you who criticize you, shame you, guilt trip you. I just I can't do it. Just to a point in my life where I'm like, no, not even for a day. I just can't.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. And and I guess for for some what I find is people who kind of fit that category might be people that they can't necessarily or aren't um ready to cut off from because maybe it's a parent or a sibling or someone. Yeah. Um, so that's where the sense of self and the ability. Yeah. Well, boundaries, yes, but and also um everything else that you know, all the other interactions that you're having with yourself and and with others are going to be super important then as well to be able to manage. Because what I found is that the more we believe in ourselves, the easier it is to then manage those interactions with people who don't believe in ourselves, who don't believe in what we want to do, who say, that's not gonna work, that's a stupid idea. Why do you want to do that?

SPEAKER_03

You know, okay, nail on the head, because I always would just be very reactive. And if people would just, you know, push my buttons, I would just react so much. But the more I work on myself, the more I'm able to just take a beat, take a breath, and either if it's a text, reply tomorrow when I've calmed down, or just go, this isn't me, this is them, and just sort of like that. It's do you find that it's not linear? Because I find that I'll be, you know, improving, improving and feeling so great, and people don't trigger me, and then something will happen, and then I catch myself either going into the people pleasing or the self-criticizing. But I find for me it's more about not that it never happens again, more that I'm able to catch it and reframe it. Do you find that's more healthy with it?

SPEAKER_01

Because I mean, the my book says to classify use what's wrong and what's strong, but it's not necessarily about staying down the path of what's strong the whole time. It's about reflecting on the times that we don't, because that's where the growth is. So that's spot on. And maybe there might be some areas in life where it's a lot smoother and quicker. Or there might be times where you know there's a lot happening and it's going to be slower and and harder. Um like that. Yeah, yeah. It's a constantly evolving process, and it's really about, you know, trying to use that non-judgment, be your own mediator in that reflective process.

SPEAKER_03

I love that, Rosemary. And that's why I don't use the word I'm happy or happiness much. I say joy, because I I feel like it's toxic positivity to expect to be happy all the time. And, you know, that it's almost like you're on lithium, like it's fine. That's like someone who bottles things. Things aren't fine, things go wrong, and it's okay to talk about it and let it all out. And um, yeah, I find that's really toxic. So being in joy is better for me than being happy because I understand that the path is rocky, like the road is rocky, and sometimes things go wrong. But also, like you said, it's part of your growth. So I have this personal belief that when you're on the other side, this is a bit woo-woo for some people, that you pick the blueprint of your life, that I've, you know, picked, you know, this neuromuscular disorder and that certain relationship and think to to learn something to strengthen my spirit. Because I feel like if you come here and everything's, you know, handed to you on a silver platter, you haven't really evolved or grown, have you? You need to have challenges, right?

SPEAKER_01

And I think even if things are handed to you, there's still going to be challenges because it's not about what's what we've got or what's being given. It's what we do with it and how we see ourselves.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. And look, the the sours make this makes the sweets sweeter, doesn't it? When things go wrong, it just makes you have so much gratitude for when things go right. So yeah, it's like different seasons of the weather, different seasons of life. Yeah, totally get that. That's right. Jumping in with another message from my Sydney friends. If you're a pizza lover, you absolutely need to head out to Crenulla and visit my friends at Queen Margarita of Savoy for traditional Neapolitan pizza and other Italian classic dishes. With my Sicilian background, you know that I've travelled to Italy many times over the years. I've eaten pizza all over Italy, including in Naples, and I swear to everyone I meet that Queen Margarita is still my absolute fave. I like simple classic flavours, so I highly recommend the traditional margarita and the three cheese pizza. Hubby loves the prosciutto and the pork and fennel. I also have a soft spot for the truffle orangini. Check them out at Surf Road Cranella and the link in my show notes. You definitely will not be disappointed. How can we transform overthinking into a strength rather than a burden?

SPEAKER_01

Well, I guess it really comes down to our view of ourselves. I will say to myself that I take too long to make decisions, that I'll consider every single option, and then I might ask someone else. And then when I ask someone else about their opinion, then is the implication that I don't trust my own opinion? And then go going into this whole dialogue. But if it's more that I like to have all the information available before making a decision, then it's like, oh, okay, I'm just doing my due diligence.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

You know, rather than uh, oh, I can't make a decision, I'm taking too long, I just, you know, I just have to decide on which mattress to buy or something, you know, just to give a very trivial uh example. But you know, it's it's more about how we view ourselves in that moment and how much it it brings us down. What's the impact? Because the the over I mean, and and I'll I'll go take a step back and give you my definition of overthinking. That overthinking is an analysis of a situation that focuses on what's wrong, whereas reflection is an analysis of a situation that focuses on what's strong. So if you can do one, you can do the other. It's just about shifting the where the focus falls.

SPEAKER_03

Oh, I like that.

SPEAKER_01

And when we are in overthinking.

SPEAKER_03

I feel like your example about the mattress thing, that's something where you would overthink because you want to make the right informed decision. But when I hear overthinking, I think more someone said something about me, and then I or the whole drive home, I'm I'm replaying it in my head. So for something like that, how do we how do we reframe the overthinking there?

SPEAKER_01

So sometimes it's just about the awareness that every single thought in our head focused on what's wrong. Sometimes that can be enough to kind of stop us. Then other times, in that is that's a good example of when we're analyzing what someone said and did. Well, then I fall back on my legal background and apply the rules of evidence because the rules of evidence dictate what can be submitted in court. And so if it can't be submitted in court, then perhaps why are we spending so much time on it? So it has to be something that could be verified by a witness or a person. So uh sorry, a witness who would be a person or a thing, like a document or something. Yes. So if it can't be verified and it exists only in our head, because we've made a negative assumption, we've made an assumption that focuses on what's wrong, then it can't be used as evidence. So why are we placing so much weight on it and you know, just impacting our our life, impacting our day?

SPEAKER_03

No, you gave me a real light bulb moment because you use that example with evidence in the book. And I I used to watch a lot of legal dramas like the practice growing up. So I was like, oh, that is such a great way to reframe it. But I have this friend, he's an older friend, he's in his 60s, he's retired now. And when he retired, we worked at the same company, he said, I was so happy when I retired because for decades, whenever people were behind a closed door, I just presumed they were talking about me and kind of flying me as something. I'm so free in my retirement because I never have to wonder what's happening behind closed doors. And I laugh about that so much. He's he's if you watch Seinfeld, he's very much a George Costanza, like you know, like he's an overthinker, but his job was the logistics manager. So that was his strength in work to think of all that could go wrong to prevent it for the owner. But he did that in his life. And that when you said that about the evidence, it makes so much sense. We could I I think a lot I read a stat some once, but most of the things you're fearing about or worrying about are things that I think 95% of the time never actually eventuate. So it's like I have wasted so much energy, you know, worrying about things. And then if you're worrying about things that might happen, it's almost like you're then suffering twice because you suffer beforehand thinking about it, then you suffer when it does happen. So you might as well just not play it over in your mind before it gets there. But yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And I guess the other part of that is that the more you focus on that, the more evidence you then receive. Yes.

SPEAKER_03

Yes, like when they say, say you go to buy a Tesla or you see a Tesla's on the road, because that's where your attention is, right? Attention goes where energy flows, or energy vice versa. That makes so much sense. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

So, and that's also why it can be so much harder to change the default. Because if your default is to go down the path of what's wrong and you take that path and you continue to get more evidence to support that, then it's going to take more effort to go the other way and to see the other side.

SPEAKER_03

And it's the ego, isn't it? The it's the ego's job is to protect.

SPEAKER_01

So, isn't it the ego will hunt evidence to see threat, to protect and even just negative bias and the fact that as humans we that's how we survived as a species?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. So if someone's overthinking today, the first thing you do is think, so they're focusing on what's wrong, is to straight away flip it. They're focusing on what's wrong, so it's to straight straight away flip it to what's strong. So say you're driving home from a party and someone said one thing wrong. Would you then replay over in your mind all the good things that happened to move yourself out of the negative energy into the positive?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, that's definitely one way that that could help. And that sort of looks at a gratitude practice can be quite uh helpful and a way to shift the focus because it's not about minimizing when things go wrong, it's about learning from them in a way that is non-judgmental. So we don't beat ourselves up, we see it as a learning opportunity and how how we can use that in future interactions.

SPEAKER_03

I love that. Seeing it as a learning, so nothing negative is for waste.

SPEAKER_01

Sometimes we miss uh learning opportunities and it's just it wasn't the right time. And then we'll we'll get more opportunities to practice that will come up until we we are ready to see it and take it on board.

SPEAKER_03

Sometimes it's the timing that where you're at, it's meeting you where you're at. That makes sense. All right, so that's for overthinking. What about for people pleasing? How can we stop being a people pleaser?

SPEAKER_01

Well, I think it it also goes back to our sense of self. Why are we? Why are we prioritizing the needs of another before ours? Now, unless we are their carer, or there are major safety concerns, you know, where we need to, there's a major vulnerability, then how do we shift that shift the shift it so there's more balance? And when we believe in ourselves, then it's easier to put boundaries up and say, or I'll get to that when I can, or to even delegate it to someone else. Because when we are people pleasing, our sense of self revolves around what we do for others. Then it relies on us prioritizing another. So where we have interactions with ourselves that build on our strengths, and then and also having other people around us who can also help us see our own strengths, then that will make them putting up boundaries feel a lot easier. It's all part of the growth uh process because we are when we are uh being in that people-pleasing mode, it's because in that moment it has served its purpose and it's helped us to feel safe and to feel needed.

SPEAKER_03

Yes. Look, for me personally, it's been very, very simple. For many years I was a people pleaser, and for many years, I simply didn't like myself or know myself. So I needed the external validation, that feedback, that approval from someone else to feel okay. But to be honest, it never felt okay because it can just be taken away again, you know? So it wasn't until I really started to like myself and build on my relationship with myself, which, you know, is all different methods and over a few years, it was a process. But now it's I don't do things because I need the pat on the head. I do things because I want to see that person happy. But it used to be because I wanted the pat on the head. And to throw in a pop culture reference, um uh Taylor Swift had a wonderful documentary called Miss Americana, and she talks about how, you know, for so long since she was a little girl, which is such a common thread. I was in performing arts. Performing artists always need the applause, right? So you're sort of growing up thinking that already that's what you're taught, the external validation means you're good. So she craved being, you know, a good girl. So she needed the applause, she needed the pat on the head, and she was talking about that horrible moment where Kanye West came and tried to take her award off her, and everyone was booing him, but she thought in that moment everyone was booing her, and she's standing there, and that's when she just broke because she's like, I spent my whole life, you know, just wanting to get that applause and be told I was good. So when I thought it wasn't, I didn't know who I was. So I just think it's such an interesting journey, the journey into knowing the relationship with yourself. And that was for me, that was the only way to stop relying on that validation from others. And I I I wouldn't classify myself as a people pleaser anymore, occasionally an overthinker, but I wouldn't say I'm a people pleaser anymore.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, that's a great example and story because that's really what it comes down to. It's our relationship with ourselves and the way we interact with others is a reflection of that.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. And it's very freeing when you realize I don't need it. Not that you don't still, you know, and I think social media is very, very dangerous with the likes or, you know, who's viewing a story, or you know, you need because it's like if you're doing it like this, for instance, as a business, you might need them to get more listeners to make more money. So it's like that external validation is sort of wrapped up in your worth then, because that's how you make money from it. So it's a very dangerous thing, social media. And I do find that I just feel happier when I'm not on it. Yesterday I wasn't on it all day. I go on it for one minute, and boom, my comparison itis jumps in and I start comparing to someone in Europe, and I'm like, okay, this is, you know, it's so insane. Do you find that social media plays a bit of a scary role in that?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, because social media can give us evidence of what's wrong with ourselves and what we lack and where we need to improve and and change. So if we don't have a strong sense of self, if we don't have strong belief in ourselves, that's going to impact us more. And sometimes it impacts more one day than the next, which is why I guess I've now implemented social media free Sunday. So I don't access any social media, I don't post just to it's like a Sabbath day.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And I realized that social media was stealing a lot of my time.

SPEAKER_03

And joy.

SPEAKER_01

I mean, I was I was facilitating it, I was allowing it.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And that's what it's designed for. It's designed to get your attention and keep your attention.

SPEAKER_03

Oh, yeah. That's why I'm always saying it's not you. These are multi-billion dollar companies, and they're literally created something that makes you get your attention. So it's it's not your fault. We're just victims to this huge. All these people who make these like phones and have the social media, they don't let their kids go on them. So I think, you know, like that's right, a drug dealer never uses their own drugs. Like I think there's there's something in that.

SPEAKER_01

It's crazy, isn't it?

SPEAKER_03

I just want to quickly touch on something. I've got a blog out at the moment talking about when you feel excluded from peers, right? And I feel like even though I've gotten older and I've worked on myself so much, there's a a biological thing that, you know, in cavemen days, if you weren't part of a tribe, you didn't survive. It gave you shelter, it gave you food, procreation, whatever. So I feel like there's something. I had a really good chat with a male friend a week ago who said the same thing. So it's not even a female thing. I know two males feel the same if they say friends get together and they weren't included. And social media can highlight that now because years ago, if people got together and didn't include you, you didn't know, right? So I understand that it's not good to rely on that external validation, but do you find that that's something that everyone would have in them, that innate, like innate feeling to feel included? Because years ago, if you didn't, you didn't survive. Do you find that that's just built in?

SPEAKER_01

It is. And um also biologically, we can experience uh social pain, which is very similar to physical pain, and that includes any anytime you feel excluded.

SPEAKER_03

It's a horrible feeling.

SPEAKER_01

So it's it's a pain. And and for the brain, it's almost um triggering the same wiring as physical pain. Whereas physical pain, we'll put a band-aid, we'll go to a doctor, we'll do something. That sort of social pain will lead us to overthink and get sad and and just really.

SPEAKER_03

Well, much like a breakup, you know how people would say broken heart. Isn't that isn't there some evidence where it can impact your physical heart if you're feeling that I have seen I had I saw something on that recently, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

So and then there's a there's a lot to be said about the emotional and the stress and and the the physical uh side of things as well. That's a whole other podcast.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, of course. I know, but it's not like um because I wrote this blog and I'm like, it's I'm normally a glass half full, and I'm like, but I'm I'm hurt and I need to talk things out because I feel like it's not that oh, I'm not evolved enough. I think that's totally normal to feel hurt and to to not be included with peers.

SPEAKER_01

And I think also where there has been a lot of personal growth, then something like this happens. It kind of chilled us back in time.

SPEAKER_03

Yes, I felt yes, I felt regressed. And I I said that you feel like the lonely girl in the pigtails, and I had this flashback to in kindergarten. There was this girl that didn't end up going through primary school with us, but I'm sure I remember this. She had a party and invited every single student except me. And I don't know whether I've made that up in my head because I was five or six, but the fact that my gut went straight back there, I think that did happen. And I'm like, see how traumas can be living in you and you're not aware of it, and one thing happens and boom, the pain comes straight back up. But yeah, it's an it's a funny thing, it's an interesting thing. And I I see it a little bit lately because as I said, with social media, you wouldn't have known years ago if people got together without you, and now it's just you see those photos and it oh, it hurts, it really hurts. And I I don't think there's anything, any personal work I really have to do to get past that. I think it's just sort of understanding that that's how we're wired and yeah, yeah, trying to have around you.

SPEAKER_01

And then also how long do we stay there in that yeah moment?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, okay. That's what I wrote in my blog. Yeah, I said you won't hear me talk about it after today, even though I did reference it just now. Because I'm like, okay, I've I've named it the pain, I've sat in it, uncomfortable, and now I'm just releasing it. Hope everyone's well, but don't want to know about it.

SPEAKER_01

Whereas in the past, it might have been something that you stayed with for much longer. Dwelled. And that's what the growth is, even you know, with the what's wrong and the what's strong, it's not necessarily about staying on what's strong, but reflecting on the times that we didn't, and that hopefully that time frame gets quicker and quicker. And maybe for other areas it's harder because we have areas of our lives that uh propose a heavier struggle. Yes, based on our experience, our nature, whatever, whatever it is, it doesn't matter. Um, it's just about being compassionate towards ourselves, having self-compassion to that journey and showing non-judgment and knowing that it's sometimes it's going to be harder or longer, or maybe I'm successful in all these areas of my life, but yes, that one is still getting to me.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. No, that was a real light bulb moment, what you just said, because the growth is not about not feeling the hurt, the growth is about not dwelling in it. So that's true. So it's not like I think if I didn't feel any hurt, I'd be a bit dead inside. I'm a very empathetic, compassionate person, so I feel things very deeply, which can be hard, and then it can be so beautiful and joyous. So yeah. Let me ask you, what does mental wellness look like to you?

SPEAKER_01

I guess my inst my natural response would be to look at well, when is it not good? What's not good when to wellness, and then what what's the opposite?

SPEAKER_03

You're such a lawyer. Yes. Love how you do that. You are such a lawyer because you have that analytical mind of I need all the evidence now.

SPEAKER_01

I just funny because I never felt like a lawyer when I really get that even yeah, mental wellness is when we are in a space, I guess, where we are in balance. I think balance is the best word because it doesn't mean that we won't have challenges or adversity. It's just we'll be able to get back to balance quicker.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. I like that. Yes, it is. And for me, it's been like living more authentically. I feel like there's so many seemingly embarrassing parts of myself that I used to hide. Like I had this neuromuscular disorder that I hid for years, and now I just tell everybody. It's like um, I always reference Harry Potter, you know, naming Voldemort sort of frees you of his power over you. And like little things like I don't know how to ride a bike. Like all these, I never learned how to ride a bike. All these things that I would go to these lengths to hide. And now I just tell people because it's like I'm not ashamed of any part of me, you know, like any bad experiences I had with, you know, abusive relationships. I don't Hide it. A, it was not my fault. And B, I'm proud of myself for my growth. So, yeah, that authenticity of just being really honest and open about who I am, that to me, for my journey, has been my mental wellness. I found it very freeing not trying to fit in and be someone I'm not because I'm not that polished designer outfit beautiful person. And every time I tried to fit into those circles or that, I just I'm uncomfortable. So I just like being me unapologetically. That's been my mental wellness journey.

SPEAKER_01

That's great. And it's because you're able to focus on your strengths without worrying about what might be seen as a weakness or what's wrong in in terms of everyone else, because the starting point is you, not the other.

SPEAKER_03

You can really apply your line to everything that the what's strong over what's wrong. It works for everything, doesn't it? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. And the more the more you sit with it, the more you see it in in day-to-day life. It's really, and I've just finished writing my second book, which is um for carers, and it uses the same concepts. And it's just it just was so smooth and really almost surprised me how smoothly it transferred to life as a carer or caring for someone vulnerable.

SPEAKER_03

So you can use it in everything. See, to me, I always find that um sitting in silence is the most important thing. And we're in such a busy, noisy world. There's always like a TV on, the phone's on. And whenever I'm silent, that's when I develop the relationship with the self, or that's where I can reframe. And that's do you find that that's a good time to analyze what's strong over what's wrong? Because if there's all that white noise, you can't really sit and look at it and reframe it. Do you find silence is essential for that?

SPEAKER_01

It definitely. And so I mean, you can be in a in a crowded room and still have silence. So it's it's more about where our focus is going.

SPEAKER_03

Yes.

SPEAKER_01

Where we can place our focus, and that changes uh according to the day, the time where we're at, who we're with as well. It might be look different for for everyone. So it's about finding it and and working out how to stay there or go there regularly.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, I like a bit of silence. I have an 18-month-old in my house. He's not here, I'm like, serenity. I love him to death, want him here all the time. But if I get one hour where he's not in the house, I'm like, oh, it's so neat and serene. It's because he's all it's, you know, kids have always got like toys that are noisy or the wiggles on. So I actually love the solitude. Um, we're we're we're nearly finished, but I just want to quickly ask you, what are your top tips for building self-esteem? So I if there are that was what I struggled with, and that that lack of self-esteem is what got me into abusive relationships. So if there are listeners today that feel that they're just struggling with their self-esteem or self-worth, what are what are some tips you would give them?

SPEAKER_01

And and so the one that I've already said and mentioned, because it's quite valuable, is the what's wrong and what's strong classification, that awareness of you know, your self-talk. Where is it going down? Is it going down what's wrong? Well, if it's gone down, what's wrong? How could I rewrite it to what's strong? And then also to look at the quality of the interactions that you're having. Are they focusing on what's wrong and what's strong? And whether or not they're with yourself or with others. And I know that you know, my book is called It's Not You, It's Me, and it's about being empowered to take change, take charge of change and personal growth. But sometimes others around us are part of that journey. You know, you might remember a teacher or someone significant who you always walked away from feeling good and they've always supported you and they didn't show judgment. So those types of people can also help, especially when this the sense of self is is quite low. And I always refer to my own journey when I first started uh as a mediator in a strengths-based organization, it was the first time in my career that the focus was on my strengths and not on my weaknesses and where I needed to improve, and that really blew me away. And so the more that my manager showed me my strengths and and not just directly, but by the work that she gave me, then it helped me to see it in myself.

SPEAKER_03

And then the more I saw it in myself, the more I practice it, and the more positive reinforcement is like gold to me and the same. If I ever had, you know, you sort of lean to being a people pleaser in the past. Whenever I've had bosses who point out, that's why you should, when you're giving feedback, do that compliment sandwich, start with what someone's doing great, and then end with how you can sort of fix something that's not as great. But whenever I've had positive feedback, I work my ass off after that. Because I'm like, it just it reinvigorates me. Like people see that I'm doing something well, whereas negative feedback would make me sort of go into a little hole. So it is so important, isn't it, to have those people around you that have positive reinforcement.

SPEAKER_01

And at that point in time, it just carried so much more weight because my belief in myself was just so low. So I'm not saying we need to rely on others, but sometimes that helps sort of with the snowball effect because then we believe it.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. No, community is important and it starts with yourself. That relationship with self is the foundation. But all those other relationships are impacting your life. So it's very important to assess who's in your life on a regular basis. I completely agree. Um, that's wonderful tips. This podcast is all about filling up your cup. So, what's something you'll be doing for yourself in the next week to fill up your cup?

SPEAKER_01

Well, I will be connecting with friends who I haven't seen for a while. That's just um where it's always just really easy and fun and just feels like it hasn't been months, you know, and it just love those friends where that that time gap means nothing.

SPEAKER_03

It it I love those kind of friends. Oh, how lovely. Well, you enjoy that. You enjoy your time with your friends. Thank you so much for your for your words today. I think it's been really helpful for everyone, and I'll link everything in the show notes for um for your book. And I'm excited to hear about the new book that's coming out as well.

SPEAKER_01

Thank you so much. It's it's been great connecting with you.

SPEAKER_03

Thank you so much, Rosemary. And everybody, please do something in the next week to fill up your cup. Thank you again for being here today. I hope that this episode brought some value to you. I look forward to your company in the next episode, and please connect with me on socials to keep this love fest going. Feel free to DM me with any questions at all.

SPEAKER_02

And if you enjoyed this episode, please consider sharing it with a loved one or in your Insta stories. And if you're feeling super generous, a review on other podcasts would be greatly appreciated. I'll catch you in the next episode.