Can I Get a Refill?

Sell Without Feeling Salesy: Why Authenticity Is Your Greatest Strategy - with Kate Toon💸

• Ballpoint • Season 3 • Episode 81

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Award-winning entrepreneur, author and business mentor Kate Toon joins me for a powerful conversation about sales, visibility, personal branding and building a business on your own terms.

Kate’s new book, Six Figures in Sales, is all about helping business owners sell more confidently — without feeling pushy, fake or manipulative. And in this episode, she breaks down what actually works when it comes to attracting loyal customers, communicating your value and growing a sustainable business in today’s online world.

We talk about the psychology behind selling, why trust and connection matter more than ever, practical ways to improve sales without spending a fortune on ads, and the biggest mistakes many entrepreneurs are making that quietly cost them money.

Kate also shares insights from her own journey building multiple successful businesses while rejecting the polished “perfect entrepreneur” stereotype and creating success in a way that genuinely aligns with her life and values.

Whether you’re running a business already, building a personal brand, or simply wanting to become more confident in how you communicate your value, this episode is packed with honest advice, mindset shifts and actionable takeaways.

We chat about:

  • How to sell without feeling “icky” 
  • Practical ways to attract more paying customers 
  • Building loyal communities instead of chasing virality 
  • The power of personal branding 
  • Customer trust, connection and long-term loyalty 
  • The psychology behind sales and self-worth 
  • Common mistakes quietly costing entrepreneurs money 
  • Creating success on your own terms

Have a listen to our chat, or watch the full video on YouTube here.

Thanks for tuning in today to The Can I Get a Refill? Podcast, and be sure to jump on my website (below) to download a free 33 page eBook on 7 Steps to Protect Your Energy & Fill Up Your Cup. 

You cannot pour from an empty cup, so I’ve designed a guide to help you take care of yourself, in order to uplevel your life. Download it today and make yourself a priority in 2026!

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SPEAKER_03

Jumping in here to talk directly to my Sydney friends about one of my absolute favourite cafes, Pilgrims Cranolla. Now located in their gorgeous new location opposite South Crenolla Park, with expanded indoor and outdoor seating, including pet-friendly tables out front, and delicious food, juice, and coffee. The menu is full of wholesome, veggio-friendly eats that feel both nostalgic and nourishing. Expect breckie wraps, vibrant salads, smoothies, fresh juices, and some of the best plant-based sandwiches going. I strongly recommend the corn fritters and the chai shake, which is definitely big enough for two. Check them out on Insta and be sure to visit when you're next in Crenola. I'm recording this episode on the lands of the Darawal people and pay my respects to their elders. As this is a digital platform, I also want to pay my respects to the traditional custodians of the lands on which you, our listeners, are based, and acknowledge that you are telling stories on these lands too.

SPEAKER_02

Welcome to Can I Get a Refill? A podcast for ambitious women who are tired of pouring from an empty cup, but still want to grow, evolve, and build a life they're proud of.

SPEAKER_03

Through a mix of comforting solo episodes and inspiring conversations with industry professionals, authors, wellness experts, and entrepreneurs, we talk about what it really looks like to refill your cup while up-leveling your life. Topics include mental, emotional, and physical wellness, hormonal health, manifestation, career and finance, boundaries, self-trust, and redefining success on your own terms. Hosted by me, Steph Bruno Newton, each weekly episode is designed to motivate, ground, and empower you to take care of your needs and go after the life you actually want.

SPEAKER_02

Pour yourself a cup, take a breath, and let's refill it together.

SPEAKER_03

Today's guest is award-winning entrepreneur, author, speaker, podcaster, and business mentor Kate Toon. Kate has helped thousands of business owners grow profitable businesses through marketing, SEO, digital products, and online sales. And she's the author of the best-selling Six Figures series, including her brand new book, Six Figures in Sales. What I really love about Kate is that she makes business feel accessible, honest, and human. She cuts through a lot of the performative online business noise and teaches people how to grow sustainable businesses in a way that actually feels aligned, not forced. In this episode, we talk about how to sell confidently without feeling pushy, the psychology behind sales, how to build genuine customer loyalty, practical ways to attract more paying clients, and the biggest mistakes entrepreneurs are making that quietly cost them money. We also dive into personal branding, visibility, and what it really means to create success on your own terms. This conversation is equal parts motivating and practical. And I know so many of you listening, especially business owners and creatives, are going to take a lot away from it. Thank you for being here again for the Can I Get a Refill Podcast. If you're new, I'm Steph, I'm your host, and I help women stop pouring from an equity cup and start building a life that actually supports them. Jump on the website www.cannagetarefill podcast.com dot AU linked below to download your free ebook on seven steps to protect your energy and fill up your cup. Every area of your life comes back to the relationship you have with the self. So make sure it's a very strong one. Download it today and make yourself your number one priority. Okay, now let's jump in. Hello, my cup fillers, and welcome back to the Can I Get a Refill Podcast. As just promised, we are joined by special guest today, Kate Toon. Kate, welcome to the podcast.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, it's lovely to be here.

SPEAKER_03

Thank you so much for joining. And I was just saying off air, thank you so much for this wonderful book. Everyone watching on YouTube, I am in the middle of reading Kate's Six Figures in Sales. And I was just saying I have to jump on your website and buy your other book, Six Figures While You Sleep, because it's very applicable to my business. But it's such a wonderful book. This, when did you launch this one, Kate?

SPEAKER_01

Um, a couple of months ago. So it's the third in a trilogy, and yes.

SPEAKER_03

It's wonderful. And you know why I love it so much. Like you would think our sales book is going to be very, you know, like wordy and texty. It's so got your vibrant personality in the writing. I love it so much. And you own a um a bookstore, don't you? I I think I've been to your bookstore. What's it really bookstore?

SPEAKER_01

You might be each booknote because it's in a little town called Umina, which is on the Central Coast.

SPEAKER_03

No, I know I had a I used to date someone whose mum was in Wai Wy, and every four weeks we would go up there and I would just visit all different bookstores. So I'm sure I've got something from your store up in my bookshelf because I love the bookstores up there. Yeah, great. I'm very excited to have a chat today. I I have said to a few guests recently, the first two seasons I was working on, you know, like the mental health, the wellness, and all that. And now I'm about the career, finance, and really let's just up level our lives. And I work for myself and I do sales for my husband's business. So it's just it's very applicable, applicable to me, and I know to a lot of my audience as well. So we'll jump in into the juicy questions because I do have a lot to ask you. So you teach that sales doesn't have to feel icky. What do the best salespeople actually do differently? And how can female entrepreneurs sell in a way that feels genuine and aligned?

SPEAKER_01

Yes, I think that's the whole point of the book, right? Because every other sales book that I've seen, and obviously I have a bookshop, so I see a lot, generally written by men, uh, generally written by American men, uh, middle-aged men, uh, white men called yes, uh, and they, you know, there is this whole ickiness around sales of it being almost like used car salesmen. We've got this image of guys going around door to door with vacuums in suitcases, and there's this idea that you're manipulating people and making them buy things they don't really want and using sneaky tactics to manipulate people, right? And so, what we as female entrepreneurs can do is use the skills that I think many female entrepreneurs have, which is empathy, conversation, relationship building, and really approaching sales as if we're explaining something to a well-educated friend. When I say well-educated, I don't mean degree educated, I mean someone who's aware of what we're doing. So if you're selling dog biscuits, they at least know what dogs are and they know what biscuits are. You know, you're not selling to people who don't understand, and you're literally having a conversation. They have questions, you have answers, they have problems, you have solutions. And it is just a conversation between two equals, uh, trying to reach a goal where at the end they can make a rational decision about whether this product or service is right for them, and accepting that the product or service won't be right for everyone. And I think that's the simple way of looking at it. It's a conversation and a relationship.

SPEAKER_03

Oh, I love that so much, and I love how you highlight the relationship in the book. That it, you know what it does for me? It sort of takes the the pressure and the um imposter syndrome off that I have to be a certain person or you know, act like a certain character when I really just want to show up as myself every day. And I love that. It's it's it's very authentic. And I I keep saying authenticity is very in, like people can just see through the bullshit, you know?

SPEAKER_01

So freeing as well, to just turn up and and be yourself, warts and all, problems and all, um, and you know, accept that not everyone's gonna like you, and that's okay. That's it's rather to have uh raving fans, which you will get if you're you know authentically yourself, you'll have people who absolutely adore you. And on the flip side, because you're being yourself, you'll have people who absolutely loathe you, but that's much better than being a vanilla nothing person who everyone's a bit like indifferent about. So, yeah, it's it's just accepting that just as in life, as in personal relationships, we don't like everybody. So, why would we expect everyone to like us?

SPEAKER_03

And I think that's yes, yeah, yes, but I love the focus on the female strengths. We have that warmth, we have that empathy, and it's just you can relate to that so much better, especially as a woman. Oh well, even men. Like I was in customer service for years, and people would always cue up on my on my cues because I just I gave them a piece of me. And now that I do sales, I'm I'm like, I love building relationships and people remember me, you know. And I've had a few like guys in gyms because my husband does like a cleaning business, so I'll go and sell things to them. And they're like, I love your energy. Like they they're connecting with me and they're remembering me as the person. And I always say, you know, I'm selling me to not just the product, but there's um, I like to, I'm a bit of a manifestor, Kate, and I like to go to inspections of houses that are way out of my budget. I like to look at both houses that are within my budget and houses that are way over. And I remember going to one recently, and this girl, you know, like you walk in and the the male real estate agents are so wanky, their cars are parked out the front, their outfits, but they're just their demeanor is so off-putting and not approachable. And there was this young girl, and she's since followed up, and she's like, I remember our chat we were having at this property, and she really remembered the chat. And I said, Listen, when I am going to buy, I've saved her number. I said, I've saved your number, I will come to you first. And I said to my husband, and my husband's always saying, See, it's it's not that hard to go that little extra mile for people to remember you. But she was so authentic that I'm like, I want this girl to have the sale. So I hope when it's time that for me to buy my home that it's her who finds it. Because she's really, you know, she remembered me, but she I remember her. Well, you've been in that same wanky men.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, you've hit the nail on the head because people buy from people, not brands. Yes. If people really connect with you, they will wait until the opportunity arises to work and with you. I have a member of my uh community, I always mention her, Sue. I mentioned her in the book, and uh, you know, we connected. I think I met her at an event and then she joined my email list. It took us seven years to have the budget, the need, and the it to be the right time to join my membership. Seven years. But she was waiting and she remembered me, and that's what you want to be memorable, you know. And I think that's important.

SPEAKER_03

And that's what I say too. Um, you also brought up another point, what I say about like my husband's business. When you get no's, because in sales you get more no's than yeses. I go, they're actually not no's, they could just be not now. And you know, people remember you and come back to you, and that's why, you know, I do the follow-up in a few months. And sometimes it's it's just not the right time for them, but they want a part of what you're selling. But you know, yeah, I love that. It's definitely and I love that you don't have to be that loud, confident, in-your-face, you know, salesperson. You can just be you, and that's what I like about it. You can that I feel like that's what society is excelling at at the moment, just showing up as your most authentic self, and your right tribe will find you.

SPEAKER_01

So yeah, yeah. And if you are loud and and boisterous, that's gonna suit some people. Like, you know, well, if I'm working but if it's authentically your personality, if I'm working with an accountant, I don't really want an accountant that's dancing on reels, you know. I want an accountant that's you know, anal and likes spreadsheets and talks quietly and whatever. That's what I want. But if I'm booking an MC for an event, I want someone who's got a personality. So, as you said, as long as you're being yourself, there's someone everybody, and you'll find your tribe and your people.

SPEAKER_03

Yes. One more thing before I move on to the next question. Do you find that you need to believe in what you're selling to be good at what you're selling? I just want to give you an example of I've had so many. Do you remember? Did you ever watch Wayne's World? Yes, yes, I do. And he talks about how he had a collection of hairnets and name badges. I have a drawer of so many retail name badges because I had so many jobs. And some I loved and was at for years, and some, you know, I have so many of those five-year jobs and two-week jobs where you're like, this didn't work. I remember working at Westpac in a bank. I thought I'd be good at it, and I just it just didn't click. I just, you know, and I loved talking to the people, but it just wasn't working for me. But I didn't realize, I thought I was just going to be a teller. I didn't realize I had to sell and push credit cards and people. You had to have a minimum of five referrals a day. Well, luckily, the personality that I have, I made friends with all the people, you know, in the offices you're referring to, and they would pretend that I referred people to them. But there would be like, um, you know, whoever was a walk-in, they were like, oh, Steph referred me. So I sort of got by for a few months. But I don't believe in credit cards and bad debt. So I didn't feel comfortable saying to people who came in to take out some money, you should have a credit card. It felt unrealistic to me. Then when I worked in a gym, I go to the gym all the time. I work out every day. That was such an easy sell. I had so many members join up because I'm like, why wouldn't you want to have fitness in your life every day? So do you think you really need to believe in what you're selling to be able to sell well?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I mean, look, I think you can sell things you don't believe in, but it will, you know, leave you feeling ick. That's the ick feeling. And I think if you are really struggling to sell, you should look at what's coming up for you. Um, you know, because if you are not confident about selling your product and service, there's something there that you're not that's not sitting well with you. And what is that, you know? And often it comes down, especially with women, we are people often people pleasers and we don't like, you know, asking for things. So often it comes down to price. Like we think we've, oh, we don't want to charge too much for this, and we don't want to, they haven't got much money, and oh, you know, and so it's really good to take the emotion out of it and be very rational about what you're selling, really understand the benefits, the features, really work out a price that is based on you know, rational thought rather than just plucking a number so that you really do feel you have the foundations and the believable kind of grounding of your product so that you feel good about it. So go back to what your product is, why it's good, why it's priced the way it is. And once you've got that, really you'll feel much better about selling it. But yeah, yes, you have to love what you sell. I think people can tell, you know, when I'm in the bookshop, my enthusiasm comes through. And I can't, and I will literally say, I haven't read that book, so I can't talk to it. I won't pretend I've read it. And also, there's some books where people pick them up, and I'm like, don't buy that. That's a dreadful book, and I know I shouldn't say that because it's a bookshop, but then obviously because I'm being honest about books I dislike, then when I'm talking about ones I do like, it's more believable. I trust you. Yes.

SPEAKER_03

You remind me of um Hugh Grant in Notting Hill. Yeah, he's like, Oh, that's a Turkish book. Um, and no, look, this is why I'm always saying spend those few dollars extra to buy books from bookstores and not fucking Amazon. And you know, like I need people in there who give me recommendations, are so passionate about it. It's such a special experience that you cannot get books, is the one thing I won't buy online. I need to go in and and talk to someone about it. Um, what you're saying is so true, though, especially that underpricing. I I've done that for years, and it's that thing of not wanting to put people out, and I do think that's more female specific, but that sort of leads me to the next question. Uh, a lot of women are exceptional at what they do, yet still struggle to confidently talk about their value. How much of selling is actually psychology and self-worth rather than strategy?

SPEAKER_01

Um, look, I think it's it's 50-50. I think you have to get so the the the almost the first chapter of the book is around pricing, just to get that out of the way. So making people understand that there is no right price and that people will pay anything if they believe in it. You know, Tiffany sells paperclips for $5,000, and yet some people can't charge $60 for their VA service or whatever. So, you know, I show in the book how to price your products and services for both retail and service businesses in a really rational way. I talk about minimal viable income, I talk about hourly rates, we talk about margins and markups. It's a bit challenging for the maths challenged, but once it's done, it's done. Um, and there's this thing of just sticking to that price and accepting in in service-based business, you accept that 50% of the time you will get a no. Because if you got a yes 100% of the time, you're not charging enough. And if you got a no 100% of the time, you're charging too much. So there's this balance, there's a ground, and it's usually very little to do with what other people are charging. It really has to be your price. But the other thing to remember is um people will buy anything, you know. People want to buy stuff. People we like buying stuff, right? It releases dopamine, and if it's a good thing, it also releases serotonin. We were just talking about that. So, you know, people are coming to your page, your shop, your product, whatever, already wanting to buy it. They wouldn't be there if they weren't interested, but they just have a few reservations, and rarely is it price. Rarely is it price. The more upfront you can be with your pricing, the better. But rarely is it price. It's more that is it? It's more that am I going to be let down? Am I going to buy this and it's not going to live up to my expectations? I'm happy to pay $200 for this thing, but is it a $200 thing? Am I going to be happy with it? So I know that sounds weird. It kind of is price, and it isn't, but you know, often people will say to me when they come to me, Oh, I don't have a budget. I don't have a budget at all. And I'll say, Well, it's going to be about $5,000. And they're like, Well, that's too much. And I'm like, Oh, so you did have a budget. You did have a budget. We all have a budget. You know, you there's a figure in mind that you have, you just don't want to say it because you're worried I will retrofit my product to your price. So it's generally, if you get back to the core human needs, no one, one of the core human things is to be part of the tribe and not to look like a fool and not to be ostracized. So we're all terrified of making a purchase decision that makes us look stupid, right? You know those cooking machines that cook everything in one thing and they're super expensive. I can't remember what they're called, but everyone had them a while ago. And you will not find anybody who's bought one of those that says a bad word about them because they cost so much that you don't want to buy it and then go, actually, it was a bit rubbish. You don't, you know what I mean? So people don't want to look a fool, they they don't want to be let down, and so they're looking for you to provide them with evidence that the price is worth it, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_03

Yes, it does. Right. So I guess what you're saying is it's up to you to, if you're the seller, to to quell those doubts.

SPEAKER_01

It is, yeah. So imagine that the person you're talking to is not really the person who's making the purchase decision. What they are is the person that has to go back to someone else and give them evidence that this is the right decision. So in my family, I never have to ask my partner if I can spend money, it's quite the other way around. But with many relationships, right? Yep your husband wants to buy a car and he's like trying to justify it to you. So he's gonna come back and say, Look, it does a hundred miles an hour, it's got great fuel efficiency, and you're like, I don't care, I don't care. If he says the right thing, you say, actually, it's got heat warm seats, you're like, Okay, that's what I want. So it's about picking the thing that is the thing that people care about, giving them evidence, proof, justification, so that they feel that the purchase decision they're about to make is a good one, and that after they've handed their credit card card over, they feel good about it, not oh god, what have I done? What have I done? You know, you never want to get that horrible sinking feeling after you bought something that you've made a mistake. I hate that feeling.

SPEAKER_03

That's an awful feeling. You can feel the energy in your body after you've purchased something, whether it's like, yay, or like, I shouldn't have done that. Yes, absolutely. If someone listening today feels amazing at their craft but terrible at sales, what are two to three practical things they could start doing this week to attract more paying customers?

SPEAKER_01

Well, I think the first one is to really sit down and maybe just do a one-pager, a refresh about what you are selling. Because it may have been a while. Like we all get used to saying the same things and selling our stuff in the same way. And then I think it's really important to sit down and not write down your ideal customer, but your real customer. Like who was the last person who bought from you? Why did they buy it? And if you can, even contact that person and say, what was it about everything that we did that made you choose me or buy my product? You know, what was it that really ticked over? And you can look through old testimonials as well. So seek evidence that what you're doing is good, right? Because as you said, this is a confidence game, 50% a confidence game. So seek some evidence, get very clear on what you're selling, and then think just spend even if you want to use Chat GTP or MagI, argue with yourself. Think about every reason someone would not want to buy from you. Get all the nasty reasons, all the objections, and work out a response to them. So, you know, someone coming into a book could say to me, Why would I buy a book from you when I can get it for half price on Amazon? And I literally, there is nothing I can say that isn't, I say, that's absolutely true. You can get it for half price on Amazon. The reason you would buy it from me is for the ambiance, the experience, the advice, the recommendation, the customer service. That's what we have. But you're right, from a price point of view, it doesn't make sense. So be honest about the things that you can't match, but make a big list of all the no's and come up with a response that's rational back to them. And that will really help you give you confidence because someone on the phone is going to say something, but you're prepared. You already knew that was coming and you have an answer for it.

SPEAKER_03

Well, there's also so much more to life than price, you know. There's also, you know, ethics and you know, environment. Like, I I don't like Amazon, I don't like Sheen, I don't like all these things that are like polluting the environment and yeah, just taking over. Like, I like. I like little independent stores, and I live in Crenola, which is sort of not dissimilar to Yuma, really, in that like you everything's walking distance, and you know all the business owners, and everyone supports each other in a real community here. So I definitely like to buy from bookstores. Like, and we had a great, great um Berkeley bookstore in Crenulla years ago, and this was before I had my son, and I was like, I can't wait when I have kids to go to the back of the store. They had this great like thing, bean bag, yeah, and it closed before I had him. And I'm still devastated because I just pictured sitting there with my children reading books in the back. So I'm like, see, this is why you cannot just buy online. Like something's cool, but and the same with coaching.

SPEAKER_01

So, you know, you're a coach, I'm a coach. Like the people are gonna have objections. Why would I come to you when there is a million other coaches? What is it about you? And especially with coaching and service-based, it's often literally just your vibe, the cut of your jib. Yes, they wanna that you know, they don't want to pay too much for an hour of your time and they hope that they're gonna get certain results. But really, it's more how do you come across? Do they like the way you talk? Do they like their sense of humor? So the other big thing that this is to do is to turn up as yourself, as you've said. You know, be on video, make video, even if you feel awkward and and it feels you know, be yourself, share your thoughts, share your opinions beyond business. Like, are you a dog person or a cat person? Yeah, you know, do you love cheese? Often it's the fact that you like cheese and I like cheese that makes me buy from you, not everything else. So it's that whole unique selling proposition, or as I like to say, give me a reason not to buy it from Kmart. What is the reason? What is your unique thing that you have that no one else has?

SPEAKER_03

But I think that's why people recommend doing podcasts as an addition to your business because people are getting to know you through podcasts. I always look at, you know, like Maps Merit at first sight, and you know, they go on to have the most successful. Yeah, I haven't watched all of the seasons, but you know, they'll go on to have a successful podcast and all that. And I'm like, none of these people are better at things than me, but people have seen the real them. Well, I know it's a heavily edited show, but they've seen them vulnerable. Yeah. So the audience feels connected to them. So by the time they do things, people are ready to throw money at them or their viewing time.

SPEAKER_01

Well, they're either in or they're out, and either love them or they hate them. And I think with podcasts, as with video, it's very hard to hide on a podcast or a video, especially podcast, because it's episode after episode. At some point, the mask is gonna the rail you slip. Exactly. Whereas in Instagram and copywriting and you know, brand photos, you can have this veneer. But especially if you're in a public speaking as well, on a podcast, sooner or later, people are gonna get who you really are. There's something you're gonna be able to tell. So it's a really great way of marketing and sales should be divisive. Yeah, if it's not divisive, it's not working. Vanilla marketing doesn't work. As I said, you want people to be impassioned, don't want people to love you, but on the flip of that, people will dislike you. But that's better than being forgettable, you know. So you have to say, What do I stand for? What are my values and what do I stand against? You have to be contrary sometimes. You have to have a sense of humor and accept that not everyone will get the joke. You know, it's fine to have political opinions and religious opinions if you want to, and if you're prepared to back them up and deal with the consequences, you can be whoever you want to be as long as you're prepared to deal with the consequences of being you.

SPEAKER_03

Yes, I'm iffy with I've you know, I've hinted at political things, but I'm just iffy with talking about stuff like that because I'm so sensitive and I just don't want people coming at the city. Well, this is it. Well, that that's the consequence, and so I know that I've had people say, Oh, you need to do more controversial things, and I know that would make my audience grow quicker, but I've decided what I value.

SPEAKER_01

But it's also not the time of your life, you know. I'm I'm older, I'm older than you, and when I had young children, I didn't have the emotional energy to deal with nasty comments, like it would hit me and it would land. But you know, now I've been doing this for a lot longer and I'm a bit older. It doesn't land, you know. Someone criticizes me, I'm not it doesn't land the same way, you know.

SPEAKER_03

Look, to me, I value my peace, so I don't want to argue with strangers on the internet. I think that's just a waste of my energy. So, but I know what you mean. Like the older I get, the the more brazen I am in speaking my mind.

SPEAKER_01

So maybe there is a part of me that's conserving my energy to raise a child, and maybe when I'm you know 60, I'll just let valuing your piece is is super important, and it is and you know, I don't argue with strangers on the internet. I don't I think uh uh a no response is a response, but I am unfiltered and I will say what I feel is right, but I don't I'm not deliberately provocative because that can be inauthentic as well.

SPEAKER_03

I think it is inauthentic, I think it's aiming to get a response and you see those cool-based things, yeah. I think that's a bit sad, but I think you know having like strong convictions, and I do talk about things that I'm you know strong, like passionate about that comes across as authentic. I don't like those when I was told to intentionally do those things for clickbait. No, I don't like it. It's just not me. I I just need to be me. That's it won't you won't be able to follow through.

SPEAKER_01

Like, you know, again, at some point someone will realize that's not really what you're like, but you're quite a customer. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_03

Agreed, agreed. Actually, just before we move on, I want to read your other book. But just talking of you talked about, and you touch on that in the book, knowing your real customer. I really I really like that. So for someone like me doing an online coaching business and podcasting, so would you lean heavily into analytics and really getting to know God, I can't deal with data and analytics.

SPEAKER_01

I I don't think I'm not good at that stuff. No, because um, I think you know, analytics will tell you that your audience is a 27 to 37-year-old woman who lives in New South Wales and whatever. That doesn't tell you anything about who it is. What we what we need to go after is the BDF, right? The BDF beliefs, desires, and fears. So, what does your customer have preconceived beliefs about? So, what are some preconceived beliefs around coaching, right? There are, you know what they are. You already know. You can sit down and write them. What is their darkest and deepest desire? What do they really want is their outcome? And what are they scared of? That's what you need. You don't need demographics. You know, I could be a 37-year-old woman, and you could be a 37-year-old woman. Doesn't mean we have anything in common. Yes, completely different upbringings, exactly, and relationships and money and whatever. So, really, the thing I like to talk about is Clive. I call him Clive. And from a demographic demographic point of view, he is a 67-year-old man living in Mossman. He's got a dog called Daphne and a wife, and he drives a Volvo. That tells me nothing about Clive. What I need to think about is what does Clive wake up? You know the 3am wake-up, you might not get it yet. It's a cortisol thing.

SPEAKER_03

Um I did it today. I do it, it's always between 3 and 3.20.

SPEAKER_01

Mine's 2.26. 226.

SPEAKER_03

Mine was 3.18 last week, I guess.

SPEAKER_01

So what does Clive or Steph or Kate wake up at 3 a.m. and worry about? What is she worrying about? What uh what is she thinking about? If you can, and it's not digging into people's fears and being psychologically dodgy. It's if you can be there for Clive at 3 a.m. Say Clive's got an itchy armpit and he's he's really worried about it. He's every night he wakes up, worries about his armpit, and he's Googling and he's looking, what is this itchy armpit? And you have some content on your site that explains what it is. Well, then when Clive comes to buying his itchy armpit cream, who's he gonna go to? He's gonna go to you. So, really, it's about going deeper than demographics, age, gender, sexual preference, income, and going into who people, what people's souls are, what do people want? I love that.

SPEAKER_03

That that takes the fear away from me because I'm not a numbers person. That makes it human, you've humanized it's a very good thing.

SPEAKER_01

It's the vibe, right? It's the vibe.

SPEAKER_03

Jumping in with another message for my Sydney friends. If you're a pizza lover, you absolutely need to head out to Crenulla and visit my friends at Queen Margarita of Savoy for traditional Neapolitan pizza and other Italian classic dishes. With my Sicilian background, you know that I've travelled to Italy many times over the years. I've eaten pizza all over Italy, including in Naples, and I swear to everyone I meet that Queen Margarita is still my absolute fave. I like simple classic flavours, so I highly recommend the traditional margarita and the three cheese pizza. Pubby loves the prosciutto and the pork and fennel. I also have a soft spot for the truffle arrangini. Check them out at Surf Road Cranella and the link in my show notes. You definitely will not be disappointed. But talk to me about like potential customers. So if I'm doing online coaching and I'm selling to people and these are potential customers that I haven't met yet, how do I know the BDF?

SPEAKER_01

I think you by if you understand your product and what you offer, you can and you can work out who wants that and and and what do they need. So you can come from a product first point of view, and I think if you are offering a product and service that you truly believe in, you've probably been where your customer is.

SPEAKER_03

I was just gonna say, aren't I selling to former me?

SPEAKER_01

Yes, exactly.

SPEAKER_03

So because I'm I've found things that have up-leveled my life. So I'm like, I need to tell you people about this because it's going to improve your life. So I'm looking for former me.

SPEAKER_01

Who were you then? What were you worried about? What did you need? But again, it comes, it literally comes down to basic human needs. We all want to feel safe, we all want to feel secure in this world, we want to feel part of the tribe, we want to be loved and we want to be admired. So I talk about that at the beginning of the book. The psychology of selling needs to answer one of those core needs. So, what does my bookshop do? It makes people feel intelligent, it gives them uh a little treat, you know, a little something something for $30. It makes them feel part of a community. I'm not really selling books, am I? You know, I'm selling stories and escape and experience. You're not really selling coaching, you're selling confidence and improvement and feeling better about yourself. And who wants that? Who needs that? Someone who is just further back in their journey than you. And you don't need to be 10 steps ahead. In fact, if you're like if I wanted to learn to sing, I wouldn't want to learn to sing from Beyonce. It's too far, right? I just think someone's a bit better than me, a little bit better than me.

SPEAKER_03

That's in your book, isn't it? I feel like I've heard that. I feel like I've heard that very recently. Someone who's I think it's you saying someone who's one or two steps ahead of you, not someone because it feels unrealistic or unattainable if you're going to a gaga or Beyonce. So exactly.

SPEAKER_01

And I think that takes away the imposter syndrome because you can be like, well, there are better coaches than me, there are more experienced people than me. Why would anyone want me? And it's like, because you're better than the person you're teaching. You don't need to be a genius, you just need to be a little bit better. I the example I give is that there was a guy on my SEO course, and I'm his his on his website, his graphics were all different sizes and blurry. And I said, You know, you could just drop those into Canva and export them all at the same size, and they would look great. And he's like, What's Canva? And I'm like, you know, like here's me thinking that everyone in the world knows this, but everyone in the world doesn't know what you know, you know. Like, even though you said, you know, you worked in a bank and you've worked in a gym. There's things that you will know now that no one else knows, and to them it'll be a complete light bulb moment. And you're like, Oh, that's nothing. That's nothing to me.

SPEAKER_03

That's so spot on. I'm always like, I'm not tech-savvy, I don't know how to do things. And I had someone reach out to me and go, Um, how do you do your podcast reels? How do you and I showed him a few things, he's like, Oh my god, I didn't even know my phone could do that. Like a screen report. And I'm like, Oh, okay. So, like, I guess I have learned a few things, you know. You're always um ahead and behind of someone, you know? So like you don't have to be miles ahead. Oh, you have such great answers, but I just really love that. It's I feel like imposter syndrome is the number one thing blocking people, and you you've sort of just solved that there. You really only need to be a little bit further ahead to be able to guide someone, and they're they're gonna feel they've gonna feel like they trust you more than someone who's super, super polished.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and someone who's like, you know, and also that's great about price as well, because yes, there could be coaches that charge three times as much as you, but I can't afford them. I want someone good, but I don't want someone that's 10 grand for a month, you know. So there's a price point for everybody. So when you're looking at what you're selling, you know, think about where you're at, think about the level of your customer, think about the the budget of your customer, the time. So the example I give, I give this in the previous book, is there's a group of people who have very little money. And you know, maybe they from me will buy a $47 workshop. Yeah, they'd love to buy an hour of coaching with me, they can't afford that. So they can have a little piece of me for $47. Yeah. There's people at the other end who have and they've got time. They may have lots of time because they don't, you know, they're working on their business. On the other end, there's people who are really time poor and they just want to pay and get the answer, and they will pay, you know, $600 for 45 minutes of my time because they just want to go quickly. So there's different price points. So where your price is doesn't mean that you need to be the same as everyone else. You meet customers where they're at, and that's why when you're selling, it's really good to have a range of prices. Um I love that because people like to feel they have choice. So if I come down to your site and there's one price and that's it, and there's no negotiation, there's no payment plan, that makes it very hard for me. Yes. Whereas if you say, look, there's this option, this option, and this option, we call it the three little pigs or the or the three bears, people will generally feel better because they feel they're making a choice themselves, they're not being driven to buy one thing. So again, freedom of choice is important. I'm very excited.

SPEAKER_03

Very, very smart. No, I really agree with all of that so much. Uh, your new book talks about creating loyal customers instead of constantly chasing new ones. I love this so much. In a world obsessed with going viral, do you think we've forgotten the power of genuine community and connection?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, so actually going viral isn't is not a good thing. Because I'm not profitable. No, it's not. You know, I've had reels and then go viral, and what you end up is in the murky edges of the internet. So, you know, people who aren't really your ideal customer because they've just seen you because the algorithm is giving that, they didn't come intentionally to you. So going viral is not the goal. Um, you know, there is it's been disproved that it's more cost-effective to work with existing customers than new ones. That's been disproved. That was the old adage, right? It's more cost effective to work with a loyal customer. But the thing with a loyal customer is you already know them, so the whole relationship is easier, they already trust you. So buying from you is a is uh not so much of a step. If someone's bought something little from you, they've already given you their credit card details, their emails, even the whole transactional process is easier the second time around. Um, so just you're building on foundations, you know. It's like constantly going on first dates, it's exhausting, you know. Yeah, whereas on the second third date, you already know a little bit about them. Now, obviously, not everyone you go on a first date with, you're gonna end up at second date or third date or getting married to, right? Um, and I think it's it's good to think about sales as a relationship. There will be the one-night stands, the people who come buy something from you and never come back. Then there'll be the kind of serial monogamists, you know, the people who stay with you for a while and then they move on to someone else. And then there are the lifers. And I have people in my membership who've been in my membership now for 12 years, you know, and bought every single thing I've done. That's a very small percentage, but those are my most important people. Yes, and I would die for them. Do you know what I mean? Yes, and I'd more better spend my time serving them than dancing on reels to attract another one-night stand customer, you know. So, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Look, I completely agree, and I like to do pop culture references. Now, I'm a very big Delta Gudrun fan, and I've like I've met her, I've sang with her once, but I I've followed her for 20 plus years, gone to every single Sydney show, and she's got a very she's incredibly talented, but she's probably, you know, never had the big global success, right? Even though she's doing well now overseas, but not everyone in every corner of the world knows her name. But you know, she's had a lot of small shows in Sydney all the time, and she's recently, since she left being on The Voice, she probably had to hustle more for her money. So she started doing these little um like tours where she'd go to the Maldives or Fiji, and she's got this core group, and it's the same faces you see them going to the thing. She's just bought an $11 million house. So I think that she's found her nation doing, you know, she's got the core audience, but just keep giving them something instead of trying to get those new customers. And I mean, she's obviously doing that now since Eurovision, but the core audience is her bread and butter. Yeah, and the core audience. So you never you never want to let them feel sort of like you're uh betraying their attention to get new people, and and lots of customers do that.

SPEAKER_01

So, like a lot of e-commerce stores will offer you like a 10% discount if you're a first-time customer. What about me? I've bought from you five times. What do I get?

SPEAKER_03

Loyalty is rarely rewarded, and that's why I constantly compare electricity all the time because I'm getting I'm lowering the price. I jump back and forth all the time because they're not rewarding me. The price just keeps going up. So yeah, yeah, and that pisses off the loyal customers, right?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, it does, and having incentives that you know, oh now this thing that you bought six months ago for two grand is now one thousand dollars. Well, yeah, thanks for that. That will erode trust and and make people not appreciate you. But the good thing about loyal customers as well is it's not just about them giving you money and coming back to you, they become your advocates. So they are out there in the world saying to people that you're great, you know. And I had um in my when I was teaching SEO Google stuff, um, there was a group called Like-minded bitches drinking wine in Australia. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

I'm in that group.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and then back in the day, like someone would write, Does anyone know anyone who does that teaches SEO? And I would get 60-70 comments before I even about me saying cake tune, cake tune, cake tune. Yeah, you know, and I still got the screen grabs, I have them in my nice things folder. And that is you cannot buy that.

SPEAKER_03

That is it's like unpaid um promotion, like they're out there promoting your brand.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and people are more likely to believe a review from a stranger than from a friend. So you know what it's like. If you go online and Google, yeah, there's some Nielsen data report. Do read some data, uh, 71% more likely or something like that. If you go online and you're reading Google reviews, the first thing you'll do is read the worst review and see how bad it was. I do. Yeah, but you'll also look at how the business responds to that. How can we do that? I do, yes, I do, and then you'll read the midlings and then you'll read the best ones. But you know, if a friend says, Oh, this place is great, you're like, hmm, but if 10 strangers say it's great, then you won't believe it.

SPEAKER_03

You are spot on. I do do that. Wow. Yeah, I do like to read how they respond. And I used to work in customer service and have to respond to them. So I'm very well aware of it. Yeah. Oh, that is so spot on. Yeah, that loyalty um it pays in the long run, doesn't it? So just constantly seeing that existing customer, I love that. You've spoken openly openly about building success on your own terms. Was there a moment when you realized external validation, like titles, hustle culture, appearances, wasn't actually the thing creating fulfillment?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, look, I must admit, when I started my business, it was all about the money, and I'm not gonna deny that. I wanted to earn decent money and um I wanted to feel secure, and then it really became about ego, and I'm again not gonna deny it. Like I loved the awards, I loved speaking overseas and being featured on television, and I loved it. It was a great period, and then COVID hit, and all my speaking gigs got cancelled, and I realized how exhausted I was, and how I'd been running on adrenaline for years and getting this sort of awful, non-fulfilling feedback loop of people in strangers clapping me on in New York. What's what's the point? And money, yes, money's lovely, but it got to the point where I was I always say replacing really nice cushions with really nice cushions, like it wasn't the one money wasn't for a purpose, it wasn't making me happier. Um, and which is great now because I hardly earn any money now. I've got a bookshop. So yeah, I think success on my own terms generally has meant that I don't feel I'm a conventional entrepreneur, like you know, I'm not happy clappy, you know, laughing at salads and throwing confetti in the air on Instagram, you know. I'm a bit odd, I'm a bit cynical. So that's being myself, as we talked about, clicking into where we are. Um so really accepting why Americans don't get your humor. Yeah, some of them do, the good, the good ones. Um so you know, clicking into being myself and also just the exhaustion of trying to turn up and be somewhere someone else every day, you know, doing your hair, it's performative, and you know, you can't keep it well. I personally can't keep it up.

SPEAKER_03

So, you know, it's it's so funny, Kate. Do you know how many times I've referenced COVID was that um clincher where you sort of reassessed your life because it was the first time you had a goddamn breathing break, yeah, yeah, yeah. We just didn't even realize we were tired because we just kept going and going and going, and then we're like, Oh, this is enjoyable. Having a conversation with my partner and like cooking pastor from scratch, and yeah, it I like a balance, and I I you know, you when you said in the beginning it was about money. Well, that that it should be because money means otherwise it's a hobby. Otherwise it's a yes, yeah. Yeah, exactly. But um, yeah, I mean you can have a balance, it's nice to have a a bit of a thrill every now and then with a bit of It is. I've always been a performer, so applause still matters to me.

SPEAKER_01

No, I do, you know, we all need a and look, let's be honest, we all need a pat on the bottom every now and again. And often our partner and our, you know, I've got a 17-year-old son who doesn't think anything I do is impressive. And you know, you you you everyone needs to feel valued and and respected. Um, but I guess, you know, you need to feel that yourself internally the most. Yeah, 100%.

SPEAKER_03

It's to start with that. It's funny what you just said there about like the people in your house never care. But I've seen so many things on my algorithm now. I must have liked something where they're showing their stories or their posts, and they're like, look at all these likes from strangers and nine from my best friends. I mean, I have a core group of best friends who are always super supportive, but yeah, you know, the people closest to you will watch you and then not celebrate you. I think they'd probably just get sick of seeing it. They get sick of it.

SPEAKER_01

I mean, like, you know, like I've I've met my third major business book, and you know, the number of people who came to my first launch as compared to my third, because they're just like, oh, another book. You know, the first time it was so impressive.

SPEAKER_03

I feel like it's that. Yeah, I feel like I get more praise from like podcast guests because we're all part of this. Maybe because we're all doing the same sort of thing, and we know how hard it is as well. We know how hard it is, and we want to celebrate each other because we know what it means when people celebrate us, yeah. Oh, I want to cuddle your doggy so bad.

SPEAKER_01

Sorry, he's interrupting the phone, but he's enjoying it.

SPEAKER_03

Look, he's listening anyway. He's beautiful. No, that's really true, and that's you know, you gotta weigh up. I always have to say, like, look at what's of value to you.

SPEAKER_01

So, yeah, I like a good easy to lose track of that sometimes.

SPEAKER_03

Absolutely. It's like when I go away to those like quiet, beautiful places with no Wi-Fi, and I'm like, Oh, this is the best, but I'm like, I couldn't live there. No gold. Like, no, you do. I need a bit of excitement. I need a I need a balance. I definitely need a balance. You've built incredibly engaged communities and loyal audiences over the years. What do you think people are craving from brands and business owners right now that perhaps they weren't five to ten years ago?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I definitely think it's everything you've been talking about. I think we are AI'd up the kazoo and we are sick of being answered by bots and call centers in Azerbaijan's. And we just and I think to be honest, there's a move away from online learning in the way that it was at its peak five years ago. So memberships and courses where you turn up and you do Zooms and things like that. I think people want real people, they want to look you in the eyeball and share a sausage roll with you and talk to you and go out. So I'm seeing a big rise in kind of little community meetups and things like that. The as you said, the number of people, it's the same faces, uh, but the number of people who turn up to the shop again and again and again, and that they're like, that's their only social outlet, you know, because everything else revolves around drinking or spending money, or you know, so I think people just we're what we're getting back to kind of being little cave people sitting around the fire telling stories to each other and sharing food and playing each other's hair. Uh I think that's what we're craving.

SPEAKER_03

We are community and connection. It's so funny though, it it is truly frustrating when you want an answer and you're just always getting bots. Like, I just can't stand that. And I don't know if it's because I was always in customer service, but I just want to talk to a human. And I was watching this vlogger who's like 25, and she's like, you know, I just want to like email people and message people. My mom's always like, get on the phone and call people. She's like, I just had the best experience calling someone. My all my things were solved straight away, like truly. I mean, I I always want to email things because I want things in writing, but every time I speak to people, I'm like, oh, it was so you know validating and like I trust that it's being solved. Like you made me feel good about the experience.

SPEAKER_01

So you brought it right back to the sales thing, haven't you? It's a conversation. If you approach every sales interaction, someone rings you and says, Hey, look, I'm interested in coaching, but I just can you just tell me how it works? If you approach that as like a customer service call where they've got a let you know, they they they want to know some answers and you listen, people just want to be heard and listened. Gosh, people come into the shop and you know they'll tell you all about their lumps and bumps, and people just want to be feel valued in this crazy, busy world where everyone's anonymous and far too busy. People just want a little moment where the someone looks them in the eye and listens to them and they feel heard, you know. Oh my god, I'm gonna cry.

SPEAKER_03

No, it's so true. And I like it, and more so as you get older. So, my favorite thing to do, I walk past a nursing home and I wave at the people in the window, and I got I got two women yesterday, and it was so you know, everyone walks past not looking at them, and you know, it probably meant a lot to them, but it meant a lot to me. Um, what's the biggest mistake you see female entrepreneurs making when it comes to selling?

SPEAKER_01

The the thing quietly costing them money every single day, just not doing it, like living in a land of constant marketing, which is you know, brand awareness, dancing around sharing Maya Angelou quotes and you know I'm so dumb that just not asking for good quotes. They are good quotes. No, you know, just living in information land and brand awareness land and instead of saying, here's my thing, this is how much it costs buy it. So asking So you think that's more female specific over men? I do. Okay. I do. I think men cut to the chase a bit more. I'm not saying men make better sellers, absolutely. I don't think they do. I think they make much worse sellers. Um, but I think women dance around too much and won't get to the point, you know, just after you know, you've they kind of flirt too much and never kind of ask for the dates, you know. Like at some point you've got to say, you know, buy my thing. Do you want to buy it or not? And if you don't, see you later, you know. Like, send people. I have women who have email lists and they're like, well, I don't want to email my people because they might unsubscribe. Well, if they unsubscribe, they're not your people. Yeah, but yeah, send your newsletter, send your update. But every once in a while, send a big fat sales email saying buy my stuff. And if you lose people, they were never your people in the first place, they were never gonna buy.

SPEAKER_03

We're not going to just talk about frequency while we're on that though. There's some where I'm like, it is non-stop. Like I signed up to this person, I don't want to say it, but it was a bit more of a woo-woo thing, and this person is selling at me multiple.

SPEAKER_01

I I'm I'm thinking calm down, calm your pits. Yeah, I know. Um it needs to be a good balance, right?

SPEAKER_03

Like it's um, I'm sharing my thoughts with you, and then the next one is I'm selling this. Like, I just feel like no one wants to feel like a consumer all the time where they're being because it suddenly doesn't feel like you're trying to offer a solution for my needs, it feels like you're trying to fund your lifestyle and you need me, and it's make it's giving me the ick.

SPEAKER_01

It's giving you the ick. Well, in the book, I actually have a full um sales email flow for different things. So if someone signed up to a wait list or something, there is a bit more urgency. You can send a few emails, a couple of helpful ones, then a do you want to buy it? And then we've launched, did you want to buy it? Do you want to buy it? You don't want to buy it, buy. And then there's other people who've just signed up for maybe your opt-in, you're like your free lead magnet, your free 10% discount. And with those people, you want to send, like, you know, a monthly newsletter or the odd email, and then when you're launching something exciting, you send a sales email. So if there's a very American, and again, poor Americans, very uh, you know, a very harsh way of doing it, where like sometimes you'll get three emails in a day or an email every day. No one needs an email every day.

SPEAKER_03

I mean, I think it's because they're a bigger population, right? Like I used to work at Maya, it was Grace Brothers when I joined them in the city, and then their their head office people went to the US and came back, and then we had very pushy sales um tactics after that, but it used to be, you know, a very different approach. Oh, I just remembered what I was gonna say on the last point of feeling seen and heard. My my first job was best and less. Like, how how long have you lived here?

SPEAKER_01

You know, I know what best and less is.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, yeah. And I used to be up in the lingerie, folding the old bonds, cottontails, big granny undies, and the women who would come in. I was told by the manager they don't really need the underwear, they're coming for the chat. And it was so true. And then we used to put on the big blue blazer and be at the door and doing bag checks. Yeah. I remember one day I jigged school to go and uh get an extra shift for some cash, and I saw my man coming up, and I was at the front with a big blue blazer and had to hide behind something. But they would honestly, the women would come in, and the older they were, the more they just wanted to stop for a chat. But it's so true what you said. Like people really do just want to feel seen and heard, and it just it's more apparent as you get older because there's less filling up your time.

SPEAKER_01

The funny thing is, is my proper first sales job was folding underpants in called burns. Now, the difference there is it was uh a lot of young men coming in, and if there's one thing a man does not want to do, it's talk to a young girl about underpants. So I was in the wrong spot. You were trying to market to the wrong audience. You were in a good spot. Selling undies to old ladies who want to chat, trying to sell undies to young men as a young girl was not a good thing. So again, it's about the right time, the right place, the right product, the right customer, the right person selling. You know, I don't want to buy, like, I see influencers on TikTok doing videos about menopause, and they're 27-year-old men. And I'm like, do not talk to me about menopause. Do not be telling me about menopause about you, 27-year-old man. Do you know what I mean? Like it's the I haven't seen any of those. Why are they doing that? Because they, you know, they they have the confidence of youth. They think they know everything and they think they understand everything. So, again, you know, sometimes you're just not the right person to be selling that product, sometimes it's the wrong product at the wrong time. It was a hard time to be a travel agent during COVID, right? I know that sounds really flippant and obvious, but sometimes as the business owner or the seller, you've you've lost track of that and you need to take a step back. That's why I think the one pager is really good. And arguing with ChatGTP is really good. You know, like here's my product, here's my service. Why would someone not buy it? Um, what would you do differently? You know, we're not big fans of AI. I know people have problems with it, but it can be useful to just get a really honest second opinion that maybe your customers can't give you, you know.

SPEAKER_03

And I like that you said argue because they'll sweet talk you. And I I'm like, don't sugarcoat anything, please. I don't, I didn't need that from a robot. Yeah, just give me the fucking brutal honest answer. Yeah, no, I love that. Yeah, go argue with AI today. Yeah. But no, but that's true back to the earlier point. It does seem to be more females, and I do touch on that a lot in that um, you know, we were brought up to make people comfortable and we don't want to put people out, and men are, you know, because men are assertive and women are bossy. So it's like you're trying to keep people comfortable, but know your value and be very unapologetic and vocal about it. I had a gorgeous model, Kate Bell, who I interviewed a few weeks back, and she was um actually a few months ago, she's talking about what she does well. And she's like, I don't want to toot my own horn. And I said, Kate, toot your fucking horn. You've carved out a brilliant career for yourself. You're a gorgeous woman. I said, Men don't say, I don't want to toot my own horn.

SPEAKER_01

Well, no one else is gonna toot your horn. You better toot your horn.

SPEAKER_03

Absolutely. And I'm not saying anything against men. I think it's great that men are confident in the way they speak, but I'm saying that women don't wait for that permission, do it. I think yourself out there.

SPEAKER_01

I think there's things we can learn from men, and I think there's a lot men can learn from women about empathy, listening, that would be a good thing. Mirroring as well. So I talk about mirroring in the book where it's not done in an artful way, but you know, if someone's leaning in, you lean in. If if someone, you know, is talking in a low voice, you talk in a low voice, just matching your energy to the customer in a way that's authentic. Um but just not just being bah bah bah bah bah, whatever the audience is, you know.

SPEAKER_03

I always say there's a difference between people talking at me and people talking to me. And I don't like people talking at me, it doesn't give me connection. Put it down to something as simple as my son loves watching Miss Rachel on TV more than anyone else because and I said to my husband, you watch the other kids' shows, they're they're talking at him. And Miss Rachel's like, Yeah, it's okay to have big feelings. She's talking to him, and my son feels seen. Yes, and it's that's something to be said about that. And you know, she's got no nail polish on and shitty gross nails, and she's just showing up as her authentic self. Yeah, I actually paid in mind. You should say the last few episodes have been atrocious. But I love that mirroring because it's I don't like being talked at, and that's the problem with sales. So yeah, I've definitely when I'm on the road doing sales to my husband, I've curbed the way I used to go in with a very rehearsed script, and now I'm really I'm just talking to them like they're a friend and then responding to that what they're saying rather than going through a script.

SPEAKER_01

You know, often sales books will give you scripts, and I do give a few examples in the book, but scripts don't work because people go off script, people are people. I think it's so underestimated how important it is to just be a nice person. I think that's what's that's the secret to selling. So, you know, in a shop, I could be ba-ba-ba, I could have my script, I could have certain books I want to push, I could be fully cake tuned in my you know, performative way, but I'm not, I'm different with every single person, and I just try to be really nice because also the thing you learn when you're doing face-to-face selling, as you do, is that people have a lot of issues. You know, we're aware now of neurodiversity and ADHD and autism and all that. People come in and they've had a bad day, or they're upset, or they're old, or they can't hear, or they've got sight difficulties, and one way of being does not fit all. And I'm not saying you need to be a chameleon and just match your personalities, whoever comes in, but you need to adapt and just be kind, you know, be kind over being right. Um, and it it's an element of compassion, it really is again empathy, compassion, conversation, listening, all skills, which I would say are more inherently female than male, which is why I agreed. Females make much better salespeople than males.

SPEAKER_03

And there's the rise of the female entrepreneurship, and you've also pinpointed why we will never fully be replaced by AI because we go off script, we have compassion, we are not robots, and AI has its benefits, I get it, but it will never replace that empathy and compassion and connection that we have. Yeah, so it's something comforting in that, isn't it? Kate, you've given such wonderful insights. There's so much more we could have asked. I will certainly be linking everything for you in the show notes for everyone to check out. But this show is all about filling up your cup. So, what's something you'll be doing in the next week to fill up your cup? I know you you've had a bit of a a manic time at the moment. You've had a family death, you've had a lot going on with work. So, what's something you can do for Kate in the next few days?

SPEAKER_01

There's actually a really pertinent question to ask. I was coming on today and I was thinking about that. I've not been good at filling up my cup. I am definitely pouring from an empty cup, and I'm I am weary and I need to reassess what it is that makes me happy. I've begun to lose sight of that because I've just been working so much on the shop. I've forgotten, you know, I really don't know what it is at the moment. It used to be the gym and swimming, but you know, I don't feel the pull to that as much. I really need to go and sit in a field and have some quiet and think what does make me happy and what does fill my cup because it isn't what it isn't what it used to be. Um, and I'm not sure. So I'm gonna say I don't know, Steph. And I'll I'll come on that one.

SPEAKER_03

Probably my favorite response so far. It's so honest. And you know, like especially in winter, it's uh it's hard to get vitamin D. Go and sit out in the sun, have a notebook and a paper. And that's so true because your life changes all the time. So it's about reassessing what used to feel like you can't might not now. And mine used to be 5 a.m. gym workouts, and now it's lying under a tree watching the clouds.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I used to like take photos of myself of my cute gym wear, and I used to love it, and that was my opinion, but now it just I I I feel like I should be doing that, but it doesn't call to me the way it used to. So maybe it's making soup. I don't know, we'll see.

SPEAKER_02

Kate, get rid of that word should. It's eliminated from our vocabulary.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, I know. Oh, I love that so much. Well, your filling up your cup can be taking a moment sitting outside trying to figure out what fills up your cup.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and having conversations like this, you know, it's good to actually just talk about stuff and yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, well, you filled up my cup today. This is definitely filled, yeah, put me in a great mood for the rest of the week. So thank you so much, Kate, for your time today. I really appreciate it. And everybody, I hope you got so much out of this. Do check everything for out for Kate in the show notes and please do something in the next week to fill up your cup. Thank you again for being here today. I hope that this episode brought some value to you. I look forward to your company in the next episode, and please connect with me on socials to keep this love fest going. Feel free to DM me with any questions at all. And if you enjoyed this episode, please consider sharing it with a loved one or in your Insta stories. And if you're feeling super generous, a review on Apple Podcasts would be greatly appreciated. I'll catch you in the next episode.