Harrison Orr (00:01.08)
Just because you and your partner don't lie or cheat doesn't mean you have an honest marriage. And that's why things feel the way that they do.
You're listening to the Be Better Podcast. I'm Harrison Orr. And after being a defensive, reactive, nice guy that almost destroyed his marriage, I've now rebuilt myself, my marriage, to a point where we both fucking love being here and help other men do the exact same. And I used to be the typical nice guy who would avoid conflict at all costs, especially in my relationship. I had this viewpoint that a strong relationship was one where you don't fight.
So if we didn't fight, then we had a strong relationship. That was like that was the equation in my head. And so I would do everything I could to avoid those arguments. I would withdraw anytime there was a emotional or tough conversation. I would bite my tongue or just suppress stuff anytime I I felt something that was was off or that I wanted to share or that was on my mind. I would just bury that shit down.
Maybe I would tell myself that I just need to find the right timing. And then after a a few days or long enough, I would like, it doesn't matter, it's you know, irrelevant now anyway, and just sweep that one under the rug. And well that that's like my side of sharing sharing those those truths and those feelings. But anytime my partner would share her her thoughts and her feelings.
It would often get met with my withdrawal, my reactiveness, my defensiveness, and every single time would result in an invalidation of her experience and her emotions. And so I spoke about this on a live earlier. Like, imagine you've got a scale of one to ten. One being zero truth, ten being
Harrison Orr (02:08.696)
Full cards on the table, hard on your sleeve, this is what I'm feeling, this is what I'm what I'm thinking, truth. Initially, we often start, and when I say initially, it may not be specifically in this relationship, because you've learned a hell of a lot in life up until this point, but at some point, probably as a child, you shared like a full ten of what you were thinking, what you were feeling. And then maybe it was punished, right?
For argument's sake, let's say in this relationship, you know, you you or your partner shared a ten of what she was thinking, what she was feeling. And then it got met with the reactiveness. It got met with the defensiveness. It became a a fight that it never meant to be. All she wanted was to feel seen, for you to know how she was feeling, to know what she was thinking, to share this because you're on the same team. And it caused an argument or a fight or something that made things worse that she never meant to do.
And then co not often consciously, but subconsciously, a part of her learns, okay, I can't share that much. Let's bring it down to a nine and see how it goes. And then maybe the same thing happens again. And so it comes down to an eight of how much gets shared.
And the level of editing that goes into what gets shared, what type of feelings, in trying to walk on eggshells around saying and sharing the thing that in the hopes that it won't result in an escalation or a fight or something that it was never meant to be. And then you do that enough times
is how you end up in a relationship where each person is constantly walking around on eggshells. You only talk about the kids and logistics and day-to-day operations, maybe what's happening this week. We can never see beyond that. And anytime there's the potential for an emotional conversation or any just any conversations involving emotions that might go just a little deeper and require maybe some some ownership or anything else.
Harrison Orr (04:16.386)
Just r resort back to those old patterns. And so the safe zone is the logistics, is where there's no emotions involved. Cause often what's happening in those times is there's a part of you, if you're the one getting defensive or withdrawing, that is taking her emotions and her p her reality as a personal failure.
She is stressed, she's upset, she's this thing, therefore I am not good doing a good enough job, therefore I am failing. And especially if you've tried to fix those emotions before, then that hasn't given her what she needed in those moments either, and it's reinforced that belief.
Harrison Orr (05:06.754)
And so each time the things that we need that we are feeling that we are thinking and we don't share in in its in it in its entirety, we lose a little bit of that honesty. We lose a little bit of that trust.
And it's not all in one go. It's just conversation by conversation, they get less and less and less over time. And like I said, until you get to that space where everything is so fucking surface level. And then you're wondering why you don't feel connected, why things feel stale, why you feel like roommates more than anything else, why there's barely any bedroom activities. Cause it all stems from this.
And so honesty is not just about telling the truth. Because especially if you're a you're a nice guy, you would probably pride yourself on being honest, on being quote unquote safe, right? On you know priding yourself on being likable enough that people could tell you anything. And that's why recognition of these traits can often cut the deepest, because it takes a
A questioning of that self-image. It takes a genuine look at those questions of like, wow, am I actually that person? Am I actually that safe to be around and for people to share what they're thinking and feeling? Am I actually that honest? Or am I only honest when I'm telling someone what they want to hear or what's comfortable for me to share?
Harrison Orr (06:51.918)
'Cause that's the huge difference.
Harrison Orr (06:58.23)
And what happens when we actually start to share these pieces. Actually now before we go into that, the reason why these conversations are sc so scary aren't often because of the conflict that we assume will happen. Right? We're not necessarily avoiding the fight, the argument. We're avoiding what we think will happen because of that. So, like I said before, about like me
Thinking that if we didn't fight, we couldn't, like our mouth marriage was healthy. Because I was afraid that if we fought, it would mean our marriage was weakened. Means that we weren't on good terms. That meant that she would think differently of me, that you know, you follow that thread to a point where she leaves me. And so that
withdrawing part that wants to avoid those conversations, that doesn't want to share the full truth, that doesn't like to hear the full truth, is skipping all of those little micro moments and skipping straight to she's gonna leave you. Not consciously, but subconsciously it's operating from that fear.
Harrison Orr (08:10.86)
And now some people will then take this, this, okay, I n I need to be truthful, I need to be honest, and almost dump what they are thinking and feeling onto their partner in the
Harrison Orr (08:31.982)
What's the word looking for? In the pursuit, I guess, of of honesty. Like being able to say, you know, hand on my cross my heart, hope to die. I've been honest. I shared my thoughts, my feelings, I put everything out there, it's it's on you to kind of deal with that now. And that's not entirely helpful either.
Right, being honest doesn't mean you dump everything that you're thinking, everything that you're feeling. Because we have what supposedly people seem to argue on this, but thousands of thoughts a day. If you dump literally every single thought, every single thing that you've felt onto your partner, and just say, like, cool, well, I've been honest. You said you wanted me to be honest, now it's yours to deal with.
Not very helpful either. Because it's not coming from a genuine place of like, this is what I'm feeling, this is what I'm sharing, because I feel it would help us and this is, you know, what's what's true for me and what's real. It's almost coming from a, well, I don't want to be caught with the bag, so to speak. I don't want to be the one who can be blamed for not sharing, for not being honest for anything like that. So here's everything and you you figure it out. Your however you react to that is on is on you.
Like I saw a few months ago this this guy who runs a successful podcast, but he's I don't know, maybe like early twenties. And he was saying in this interview how he would when he was at the bar, like he would catch himself like checking out other women despite having a girlfriend, whatever. And he consulted ChatGPT for this phenomenon.
And of course Chap GPT is like the ultimate nice guy. It tells you what you want to hear. It it justifies with smart language and like proof on different levels of, you know, how that's that's fine, it's just this thing, you know, you're not at fault or and everything. Makes you feel good. And so he then went and took this to his partner. And his his spin was that, you know
Harrison Orr (10:46.57)
It's just just my high testosterone, it's just biology. Like I'm just, you I just wanted to let you know that this happens, but it doesn't mean anything and, you know, I still love you and all this stuff. A very interesting share. And as you can imagine, the comment section was like quite entertaining to read dip people's different takes on this. One of which, like, why are you consulting ChatGPT to justify your own immoral behaviors? was one of them. But
Point being, this is a great example of, well, I've been honest, so now like my hands are clean. That's not really how it works. That's just emotional dumping.
Especially if you're using it to justify behaviors or actions that you know are kind of questionable. Right? Like imagine y your your wife says, like, you know, like I was checking out this guy or I you know did this thing or I had this interaction with this personal trainer, but you know, I was ovulating that week, so it was my hormones, so it wasn't really my fault, and it's just biology and like comes up with this story and then it's just like, cool, cool, here's what happened, you know.
Make of it what you will and good luck with that. But I've I've been honest. It's kind of a a tit for tat kind of mentality, don't you think?
But honesty in a in a marriage is is twofold. It's being honest with what you think and what you feel that is relevant.
Harrison Orr (12:24.658)
And I would argue not having to filter not having to edit what you share based on how the person will receive it. Right? That doesn't mean you go out and be an absolute dick about it. That doesn't mean that you can just say everything off the cuff without consideration of how it's received, which some people take that extreme.
But it's being mindful of this is what I'm wanting to share, this is what I'm wanting to get across, and this is what I need to communicate and how I'm going to do it. Like one of my one of the clients I I've worked with before who had had an emotional affair and was working through this with his partner and was kind of
in this dilemma of like sometimes it just pops into my head and I then can't get it out and I'm stuck of like what to what to do, what to say. Like she can tell, but I I don't want to say that I'm thinking about this person, but it just happens and like I don't want to be lying either. And so where do I sit in this? And he'd kind of gone back and forth in different moments of sometimes just trying to work through it internally, other times doing the emotional dumping piece. And he's like, what do I do in this space?
Harrison Orr (13:43.277)
And first of all, you will have so many thoughts that you don't engage with. Right? So many thoughts that you just well, that was an interesting thought. And it goes out as fast as it came in. Right? I'd if anyone spent a day in my brain, they would think I was probably pretty fucking unhinged. The the random things that I think. The amount of times I don't know if you've ever thought this. What actually probably everyone has thought this. Everyone who's played Grand Theft Auto as a kid, the amount of just
if we put it blunt like the illegal things that you do in Grand Grand Theft Auto, like the the ramps that you hit that aren't ramps on on the car, the things that you do and whatever, it's it's entertaining. But then you also know like probably shouldn't do that in real life because I might die. Because I might hurt someone. Because I might kill someone. Because I probably just shouldn't do that in life. Right.
It doesn't you don't have to think too deeply into that, but like, wow, that'd be funny, but probably shouldn't, right? And then the thought is gone. You can treat so many of your your thoughts in the same way of like, cool, that thought has come in. Something has clearly triggered it or brought it into my awareness, and I'm not gonna attach to it, I'm just gonna let it go. I'm just gonna move on to cool, back to what was I doing? Was I working? Was I reading? Was I giving my presence to someone who's in front of me? And I'm back.
You can't control your thoughts. And I know that sounds wild to think. You can control which ones you engage with. In the same way that most people can't control their dreams. Right? You can't really control what you're dreaming of. Some people can. When you can lucid dream, you can change elements of of that, which is like a superpower in my opinion. But not too many people can do that. Most people just dream, you're like, wow, that was wild, and then move on.
So lot of your thoughts, you can't control what ha what pops into your mind despite us believing that we have that capability. But you can decide which ones you latch onto and you flesh out and you feel towards and you engage with versus which ones you just let float on by.
Harrison Orr (16:02.284)
So that was the piece of advice that I that I gave him. To practice that. To practice just acknowledging thoughts without engaging with them.
Harrison Orr (16:14.38)
And also just being real with yourself. Right? Being real with okay, I'm navigating this thing.
What am I gonna do with it? What am I gonna do about it?
And not trying to hide that. That's where this these scenarios get so messy. Because then you're you're adding into the context of not just what am I going to do about this, what like navigating it for yourself, you're then also adding the lens of, well, what's not gonna get me in trouble, what's not gonna upset her or piss her off, like what this other person or thing is going to think of or respond to what I might say or do next.
Harrison Orr (17:00.066)
Back to the honesty piece. There's there's two elements to honesty. There is again what you share, right? You being truthful about what's alive for you, what you're thinking, what you're feeling. And when you start to do this, is you set the example for the people that you engage with. Like
I don't really like the term, but I'll explain it anyway because I feel like it it emphasizes the point here. I used to work with a coach who was who was good at sales and was good at a lot of NLP, connecting with people, communication, conversation, things like that. And he labeled this term as tactical empathy.
I don't like the word tactical because it's it sounds makes it sound manipulative, but you'll you'll get what I mean in a second. Is if you want someone to be honest with you, like if you want, if you want to someone to open up to you, if you want to to connect with someone, lead the way. Like if you if you share something about yourself, then
that opens the door and sets the tone for what they are allowed to share back. So for example, if I if we're in this conversation and I say, mate, what's the what's the worst thing that's ever happened to you?
Or I frame it in a way that, you know, like, I wanna know what the worst thing that happened to you to you is. You know, when when when I was seven, you know, someone stole our car and and and that was pretty shit. But what about you? What's happened to you?
Harrison Orr (18:57.922)
And then I'm expecting you to just divulge your most vulnerable and emotional secrets and the hardest time of your life when I've given you like an absolute snickel frit. There was no emotion in that. It wasn't even really traumatizing, like it was it was nothing. How safe would you then feel in sharing anything vulnerable with me? Well, not really, because you can tell that that was just a bullshit answer that I gave you.
And then consequently, you're going to then give something of that same kind of magnitude. yeah, we got robbed when we moved into this brand new house, you know, like when I was when I was fifteen and like that was pretty scary and stuff like that. We go for resonance. But if I shared deeply that like the most vulnerable, the hardest moment in my life. And you'll be able to tell. Like you'll tell that it's genuine, not by the words that I use, but by
the way that you can see I'm feeling and also the way that it makes you feel as well.
Harrison Orr (20:04.162)
The same will happen with your wife. If you're telling her to be honest, but you're not honest, you're keeping your cards close to your chest, it's gonna feel like a trap.
Harrison Orr (20:18.104)
So leading the way.
In honesty, even when it's uncomfortable, even when it requires ownership, even when it hurts, not just you but others.
Harrison Orr (20:33.634)
Because then you also give them the experience on both sides of sharing that. This is one of the most powerful elements of this this piece is like when you have hard conversations, when you learn to have hard conversations.
You now have the gift of being able to have hard conversations with other people who have typically avoided these conversations. And then you get to teach other people that they're not hard conversations, that they're just conversations.
That's one of the greatest gifts that one of the mentors I had a couple of years ago gave me. Had to have this difficult conversation about me and the the team that I was in, and we were all kind of avoiding it. And the way that conversation went was so eye opening to me that you can have a hard conversation. You can have the you can speak into the thing that everyone wants to avoid and pretend that's not there. And it's gonna be okay.
And find clarity off the back of that and actually come back to the same team and actually feel relief that that you had the conversation and did what you said you would.
It doesn't have to be a blame game. No one's getting angry. No one's finger pointing. No one's throwing anyone under under the bus. It's this is the standard. This is the issue.
Harrison Orr (22:03.393)
Here's what we're gonna do about it.
Harrison Orr (22:07.97)
And then you get to give that gift to other people too.
Because you set the standard. Now the second pillar to honesty is how you handle receiving honesty. So I'll use this example of kids. If you're trying to instill honesty into your child and you said, just be honest, just tell me the truth, and you know, they they were playing with something that they shouldn't have been playing with and they broke it.
Maybe it was an important vase or something at home. And they're honest. Like, you know, I know you told us not to play with it, Daddy, not to throw the ball inside, but we did, and the thing broke, and I know you're gonna be upset. And now, how you respond to this is what you will then reinforce. If you lose your shit at your kid, they are being honest, like they were tr they were taught to do, and you punish them.
You yell, you hit them, you punish them in whatever means is acceptable in your family.
You have taught them don't be a don't be honest. Because if you are honest, you will be punished.
Harrison Orr (23:26.732)
S yes, you can separate the honesty from the action. Like I told you not to do that. This is what happens going down that route. But if you punish them for being honest, a part of them will learn, Well, don't be honest, because that fucking sucked. I don't want to get hit again. I don't want to get yelled at. I don't want have you know, be what's the word? When you're locked up and you can't go out and see friends? When you're locked in your room.
I don't wanna be banned from seeing my friends and have my phone taken off me again. So I'll just run the risk of telling a lie, of trying to hide it, of trying to get away with it.
And so you you they start to filter what they share with you because of how they were treated when they were honest. Instead of
Changing the way that you handle the situations. The same with your wife. When she shares her honest piece, being able to hear what she has to say, hear what she's feeling, and then hear or decide what needs to be done off the back of it. Does she just need to feel heard and seen? Does it require ownership or accountability? Does it require action?
Is it just, hey, this is I wanted to let you know this is how it made me feel or this is what I was thinking.
Harrison Orr (24:50.998)
And this is what people refer to as a quote unquote safe space in your marriage. It's like, can they share something with you without fear of negative repercussion? And not just in that moment of how you react, but that it doesn't get brought up and weaponized against them. That it doesn't get thrown in their face next time like you make a mistake and you throw it back at them to try and equal the score.
Harrison Orr (25:19.608)
'Cause those are all behaviors that teach someone else not to be honest. And so if you want to have an honest relationship, it starts by you being able to be honest with what you're thinking and what you're feeling, and then being able to handle the way handle yourself in when they express what's true for them in their honesty, whatever they're thinking and they're feeling.
Because it's not your job to force someone to just tell you the truth. There are so many other factors that come into that. Your job is to create the space where they feel that they can and that they won't be judged for it. They won't be punished for it.
Harrison Orr (26:08.194)
That's what invites them to that.
Harrison Orr (26:13.87)
'Cause even if you're trying to create the space and even if you're you're not you're not reacting, but they can feel the judgment. They can feel that that look, that belittling gaze. It's not a nice feeling. Like you're already feel if you're if you're being honest and and vulnerable, you're already feeling a little exposed as it is anyway. Let alone if you feel someone's judging you.
Harrison Orr (26:41.558)
That's why a lot of people aren't as honest as they'd like to be, 'cause that's how they felt when they w were honest with their parents.
So another cool thing about this journey is when we do this work on ourselves, it then trickles down into how we parent because we know how these traits were were born, what happened to us in some degree when we were kids, and then by extension, what we need to do differently as parents so that our kids don't create these protective parts and learn to defend, to justify, to manipulate, to lie to people please or anything like that.
Harrison Orr (27:21.302)
Which is one of the coolest parts about this journey that I believe as well. It's not just for ourselves, it's for our marriage, but also for our kids and their future.
So if you wanna have an honest marriage, start with those pieces. If you wanna take a step further and actually test how much of this you can handle, go to your partner tonight and ask them, When was the last time you didn't tell me something because you were afraid of how I would react?
Harrison Orr (27:56.588)
And then just listen.
If you're feeling brave and they haven't expanded on it, you can ask them what it was that they wanted to share with you but didn't. Or what they were afraid how they were afraid you would react if they did tell you. And then that's your your moment to either show that, okay, I can I can hear that and not react in the way that they think I w thought I would.
And actually create and you start to create a new experience as you lead and you stay more grounded and can have more of those conversations. Or if you respond in the exact way that they thought you would, telling them that they were right to s to stop themselves from sharing it in the first place. No matter how hard it is, no matter how much you want to defend, how much you want to just clarify the information, you want to provide an excuse for whatever it is in that moment, it is paramount that you shut the fuck up and listen.
Otherwise you're just proving her point as to why she shouldn't have told you in the first place.
Harrison Orr (28:58.819)
Don't be sorry. Be better. See you next time.
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